Question on Psalm 8:5?

[Pressing-On]

Reading Psalms 8:4-9 in the KJV, but noticed that in others versions the word “angels” is replaced with “God”.

Psalm 8:5 “For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.” (King James Version)

Psalms 8:5 “Yet you made them only a little lower than God and crowned them with glory and honor.” (NLT)

d 8:5a Or Yet you made them only a little lower than the angels; Hebrew reads Yet you made him [i.e., man] a little lower than Elohim.

Although, it appears the word for angels is “mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm

Question: What does adding “me” before “Elohim” mean? Is it significant?

Brown Driver Briggs defines this passage using either angels and/or God:
b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels Psalm 8:5

Therefore, I can see how not all the translations line up the same. I feel that the Pulpit Commentary has a good explanation, unless adding the “me” before “Elohim” changes the meaning.

Psalm 8:5
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Verse 5. - For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels; rather, thou hast made him but a little lower than God (אלהים). There is no place in the Old Testament where Elohim means "angels;" and, though the LXX. so translate in the present passage, and the rendering has passed from them into the New Testament (Hebrews 2:7), it cannot be regarded as critically correct. The psalmist, in considering how man has been favoured by God, goes back in thought to his creation, and remembers the words of Genesis 1:26, 27, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him" (compare the still stronger expression in Psalm 82:6, "I have said, Ye are gods"). And hast crowned him with glory and honour; i.e. "and, by so doing, by giving him a nature but a little short of the Divine, hast put on him a crown of glory such as thou hast given to no other creature." There is a point of view from which the nature of man transcends that of angels, since

(1) it is a direct transcript of the Divine (Genesis 1:27); and

(2) it is the nature which the Son of God assumed (Hebrews 2:16).

Any comments?

[1ofthechosen]

Reading Psalms 8:4-9 in the KJV, but noticed that in others versions the word “angels” is replaced with “God”.






Although, it appears the word for angels is “mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm

Question: What does adding “me” before “Elohim” mean? Is it significant?

Brown Driver Briggs defines this passage using either angels and/or God:
b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels Psalm 8:5

Therefore, I can see how not all the translations line up the same. I feel that the Pulpit Commentary has a good explanation, unless adding the “me” before “Elohim” changes the meaning.


Any comments?

Where are you getting me before the Elohim from? I looked at my Bible app it says plainly Elohim. Thats a mistranslation lower than the angels. The common Hebrew word used for angel in the OT is "mal'âk". It's saying what is shown in Psalm 82, but specifically verse 6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." People stray away from that teaching, "for their is life and death in the power of your tongue." We are made in the image and the likeness of God Almighty, but we are made a little lower.

Here's a screenshot of what my Bible app says it is.

[Pressing-On]

Where are you getting me before the Elohim from? I looked at my Bible app it says plainly Elohim. Thats a mistranslation lower than the angels. The common Hebrew word used for angel in the OT is "mal'âk". It's saying what is shown in Psalm 82, but specifically verse 6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." People stray away from that teaching, "for their is life and death in the power of your tongue." We are made in the image and the likeness of God Almighty, but we are made a little lower.

Here's a screenshot of what my Bible app says it is.

､Interlinear at BibleHub:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/8-5.htm

430 [e]
mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm;
מֵאֱלֹהִ֑ים
than the angels

[Pressing-On]

Where are you getting me before the Elohim from? I looked at my Bible app it says plainly Elohim. Thats a mistranslation lower than the angels. The common Hebrew word used for angel in the OT is "mal'âk". It's saying what is shown in Psalm 82, but specifically verse 6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." People stray away from that teaching, "for their is life and death in the power of your tongue." We are made in the image and the likeness of God Almighty, but we are made a little lower.

Right. He got us as close as we could be like Him, but not quite. That is just so personal for each one of us.

[1ofthechosen]

Right. He got us as close as we could be like Him, but not quite. That is just so personal for each one of us.

In one of the videos I have on my YouTube page I can't remember which one right now Marvin D Treece the Greek scholar says this is a mistranslation. I looked even with the me Elohim its the same word (with what I can compile from my web search anyway!) I'm sure someone else has a greater answer.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'm sure someone else has a greater answer.

Yes, that would be your pastor. :)

[votivesoul]

The "me" is simply the particle that translates to "than", from the Hebrew preposition min.

See: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Seven/The_Preposition_Min/the_preposition_min.html

Scroll down to the heading "The Comparative Use of Min"

[votivesoul]

The Septuagint reads:

ἠλάττωσας αὐτὸν βραχύ τι παρ᾿ ἀγγέλους, δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφάνωσας αὐτόν·

The emboldened text above is par aggelos, whence the term "angels".

Most importantly, the quotation and use of Psalm 8:5 in Hebrews 2:7 uses παρ αγγελους, or par aggelos, a clear quotation from the Septuagint. This then is the Apostolic interpretation of the text in Psalm 8:5.

[Praxeas]

The LXX has angels

[Pressing-On]

The "me" is simply the particle that translates to "than", from the Hebrew preposition min.

See: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Seven/The_Preposition_Min/the_preposition_min.html

Scroll down to the heading "The Comparative Use of Min"

Thanks for the link. :thumbsup

As my obligations have increased, I apologize for posting and not being readily available to respond each time.

[Pressing-On]

､Interlinear at BibleHub:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/8-5.htm

The LXX has angels

Where does this Interlinear base their information?

[Esaias]

The Septuagint reads:

ἠλάττωσας αὐτὸν βραχύ τι παρ᾿ ἀγγέλους, δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφάνωσας αὐτόν·

The emboldened text above is par aggelos, whence the term "angels".

Most importantly, the quotation and use of Psalm 8:5 in Hebrews 2:7 uses παρ αγγελους, or par aggelos, a clear quotation from the Septuagint. This then is the Apostolic interpretation of the text in Psalm 8:5.

:yourock

[Pressing-On]

Esaias, Can you comment why the Interlinear is using meelohim? Is this from the Masoretic text since you are in favor of the LXX definition?

I was interested in BDB's definition and how they arrived at this interpretation - Brown Driver Briggs defines this passage using either angels and/or God:
b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels Psalm 8:5

[votivesoul]

The "me" is simply the particle that translates to "than", from the Hebrew preposition min.

See: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Seven/The_Preposition_Min/the_preposition_min.html

Scroll down to the heading "The Comparative Use of Min"

Bump.

Lexicons rarely if ever explain or give information regarding how various word entries are amended by particles, articles, prepositions, and etc.

me'elohim simply means "than elohim (angels, in this case), with me corresponding to "than", from the Hebrew preposition min as per the link in the quote above.

[jfrog]

Reading Psalms 8:4-9 in the KJV, but noticed that in others versions the word “angels” is replaced with “God”.





Although, it appears the word for angels is “mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm

Question: What does adding “me” before “Elohim” mean? Is it significant?

Brown Driver Briggs defines this passage using either angels and/or God:
b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels Psalm 8:5

Therefore, I can see how not all the translations line up the same. I feel that the Pulpit Commentary has a good explanation, unless adding the “me” before “Elohim” changes the meaning.


Any comments?

I guess my only concern is that Hebrews 2:7 and 2:9 appear to allude to Psalms 8:5. If Psalms 8:5 is really saying Mankind is a little lower than God (which would appear to make the most sense with internal context IMO) then what is Hebrews 2:7 and 2:9 alluding to? What ever made the author of Hebrews think that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels?

[Pressing-On]

I guess my only concern is that Hebrews 2:7 and 2:9 appear to allude to Psalms 8:5. If Psalms 8:5 is really saying Mankind is a little lower than God (which would appear to make the most sense with internal context IMO) then what is Hebrews 2:7 and 2:9 alluding to? What ever made the author of Hebrews think that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels?

The explanation I read - "Christ was made a little lower than the angels, through the assumption of the human nature, which is inferior to angels,..."

This is what is confusing to me - John Gill explains the angel/God aspect this way, which doesn't help me understand it:

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels,.... In the Hebrew text it is, "than Elohim", which some render, "than God"; but it is rightly rendered by the apostle, "than angels"

[Pressing-On]

Bump.

Lexicons rarely if ever explain or give information regarding how various word entries are amended by particles, articles, prepositions, and etc.

me'elohim simply means "than elohim (angels, in this case), with me corresponding to "than", from the Hebrew preposition min as per the link in the quote above.

If it is "than God" - me'elohim, how does it then become "than angels"?

[votivesoul]

If it is "than God" - me'elohim, how does it then become "than angels"?

It can be read both ways. Context determines the correct meaning between God and angels, and since we have it quoted in Hebrews 2:7 as angels, we already have our interpretation handed to us.

For example, see and compare to Job 32:2:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/32-2.htm

For more on the multivalent elohim:

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/ElohimAsGodsFSB.pdf

http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/monotheism/context-elohim.html

[Pressing-On]

It can be read both ways. Context determines the correct meaning between God and angels, and since we have it quoted in Hebrews 2:7 as angels, we already have our interpretation handed to us.

For example, see and compare to Job 32:2:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/32-2.htm

For more on the multivalent elohim:

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/ElohimAsGodsFSB.pdf

http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/monotheism/context-elohim.html

Thanks. I appreciate your input, and I will have to think about it.

I've read debates on the LXX v. Masoretic texts and their reliability.

This just makes sense to me and so I will have to mull it over for awhile:


Psalm 8:5
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Verse 5. - For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels; rather, thou hast made him but a little lower than God (אלהים). There is no place in the Old Testament where Elohim means "angels;" and, though the LXX. so translate in the present passage, and the rendering has passed from them into the New Testament (Hebrews 2:7), it cannot be regarded as critically correct. The psalmist, in considering how man has been favoured by God, goes back in thought to his creation, and remembers the words of Genesis 1:26, 27, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him" (compare the still stronger expression in Psalm 82:6, "I have said, Ye are gods"). And hast crowned him with glory and honour; i.e. "and, by so doing, by giving him a nature but a little short of the Divine, hast put on him a crown of glory such as thou hast given to no other creature." There is a point of view from which the nature of man transcends that of angels, since

(1) it is a direct transcript of the Divine (Genesis 1:27); and

(2) it is the nature which the Son of God assumed (Hebrews 2:16).

[Esaias]

There is no place in the Old Testament where Elohim means "angels;" and, though the LXX. so translate in the present passage, and the rendering has passed from them into the New Testament (Hebrews 2:7), it cannot be regarded as critically correct.

In other words, the apostles were wrong. And the translators of the OT into Greek over 2000 years ago were wrong.

Gill: Hebrews 2:7
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels,.... In the Hebrew text it is, "than Elohim", which some render, "than God"; but it is rightly rendered by the apostle, "than angels"; and so the Targum, Jarchi, Aben Ezra, Kimchi, and Ben Melech, interpret it.

It should also be pointed out that the phrase "a little lower" does not refer to level, but to time. "For a little while You have made him lower than the angels". This could not apply to mankind in reference to being lower than God Himself, because always has been and always will be lower than God. Thus, it must refer to man, who though made in the image and likeness of God was nevertheless made lower than the angels as a consequence of sin, which dimunition of glory is temporary because it will end in the resurrection. further, this is applied to Christ as well, who was indeed made lower than the angels FOR A LIMITED TIME (His earthly pre-Resurrection life) in which He was subject to death.

Again, Gill:

Christ was made a little lower than the angels, through the assumption of the human nature, which is inferior to angels, especially the corporeal part of it, and in this Kimchi makes the lessening to be; and more especially as that was assumed by Christ, with the infirmities of it; and by reason of the straits and indigencies he was brought into in it; besides, he was in it made under the law, which was given by angels, and to some parts of which they are not subject; and sometimes he stood in need of the ministry and support of angels, and had it; particularly he was made lower than they, when he was deprived of the gracious presence of God, and in the time of his sufferings and death; and which seem chiefly to be respected, as appears from Heb_2:9 and the word "little" may not so much intend the degree of his humiliation, as the duration of it; for it may be rendered, "a little while"; in which sense it is used in Act_5:34 as the Hebrew word מעט is in Psa_37:10 and so may respect the time of his suffering death; and at most the time from his incarnation to his resurrection; for he could not continue long in this low estate, which is matter of joy to us; he could not be held by the cords of death, but must rise, and be exalted above angels, as he is: and he was made so low by God, Jehovah the Father, whose name is excellent in all the earth, Psa_8:1 he preordained him to this low estate; he prepared a body for him, and had a very great hand in his sufferings and death; though neither of these were contrary to his will:

[Esaias]

the 1917 Jewish Publication society bible renders the psalm verse like so:

Psa 8:5 (8:6) Yet Thou hast made him but little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

[Esaias]

Reina-Valera:

Psa 8:5 Pues le has hecho poco menor que los ángeles, Y coronástelo de gloria y de lustre.

[Amanah]

when I copied the above verse into a translator, this came out:

Psa 8: 5 For you have made him a little younger than the angels, and crown him with glory and luster.

[Esaias]

Keil and Delitzsch:

But when God says: “let us make man in our image after our likeness,” He there connects Himself with the angels. The translation of the lxx ἠλάττωσας αὐτὸν βραχύ τι παρ ̓ ἀγγέλους, with which the Targum and the prevailing Jewish interpretations also harmonize, is, therefore, not unwarranted. Because in the biblical mode of conception the angels are so closely connected with God as the nearest creaturely effulgence of His nature, it is really possible that in מֵֽאֱלֹהִים David may have thought of God including the angels. Since man is in the image of God, he is at the same time in the likeness of an angel, and since he is only a little less than divine, he is also only a little less than angelic.

[Esaias]

when I copied the above verse into a translator, this came out:

Psa 8: 5 For you have made him a little younger than the angels, and crown him with glory and luster.

poco menor literally means "a little minor". The word menor can be used of a "young (person)", it can mean younger, or it can mean less (just as the English word "minor" can have those same significations) as in "the minor prophets", or Asia Minor. Both of those uses signify "less" or "smaller" or lower in stature, size, importance, etc. The word minor literally means "smaller" or "less", whether less in age, size, significance, height, capacity, weight, or whatever.

[Amanah]

Keil and Delitzsch:

But when God says: “let us make man in our image after our likeness,” He there connects Himself with the angels. The translation of the lxx ἠλάττωσας αὐτὸν βραχύ τι παρ ̓ ἀγγέλους, with which the Targum and the prevailing Jewish interpretations also harmonize, is, therefore, not unwarranted. Because in the biblical mode of conception the angels are so closely connected with God as the nearest creaturely effulgence of His nature, it is really possible that in מֵֽאֱלֹהִים David may have thought of God including the angels. Since man is in the image of God, he is at the same time in the likeness of an angel, and since he is only a little less than divine, he is also only a little less than angelic.

very very interesting.

if they are indeed so like God in nature, it would be very troubling for them to fall.

[Esaias]

very very interesting.

if they are indeed so like God in nature, it would be very troubling for them to fall.

Which is why Jude and Peter spent the time to rebuke the Jewish sectarian heretics who taught that holy angels of God "fell".

[Pressing-On]

There is no place in the Old Testament where Elohim means "angels;" and, though the LXX. so translate in the present passage, and the rendering has passed from them into the New Testament (Hebrews 2:7), it cannot be regarded as critically correct.

In other words, the apostles were wrong. And the translators of the OT into Greek over 2000 years ago were wrong.

Gill: Hebrews 2:7
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels,.... In the Hebrew text it is, "than Elohim", which some render, "than God"; but it is rightly rendered by the apostle, "than angels"; and so the Targum, Jarchi, Aben Ezra, Kimchi, and Ben Melech, interpret it.

It should also be pointed out that the phrase "a little lower" does not refer to level, but to time. "For a little while You have made him lower than the angels". This could not apply to mankind in reference to being lower than God Himself, because always has been and always will be lower than God. Thus, it must refer to man, who though made in the image and likeness of God was nevertheless made lower than the angels as a consequence of sin, which dimunition of glory is temporary because it will end in the resurrection. further, this is applied to Christ as well, who was indeed made lower than the angels FOR A LIMITED TIME (His earthly pre-Resurrection life) in which He was subject to death.

Again, Gill:

Christ was made a little lower than the angels, through the assumption of the human nature, which is inferior to angels, especially the corporeal part of it, and in this Kimchi makes the lessening to be; and more especially as that was assumed by Christ, with the infirmities of it; and by reason of the straits and indigencies he was brought into in it; besides, he was in it made under the law, which was given by angels, and to some parts of which they are not subject; and sometimes he stood in need of the ministry and support of angels, and had it; particularly he was made lower than they, when he was deprived of the gracious presence of God, and in the time of his sufferings and death; and which seem chiefly to be respected, as appears from Heb_2:9 and the word "little" may not so much intend the degree of his humiliation, as the duration of it; for it may be rendered, "a little while"; in which sense it is used in Act_5:34 as the Hebrew word מעט is in Psa_37:10 and so may respect the time of his suffering death; and at most the time from his incarnation to his resurrection; for he could not continue long in this low estate, which is matter of joy to us; he could not be held by the cords of death, but must rise, and be exalted above angels, as he is: and he was made so low by God, Jehovah the Father, whose name is excellent in all the earth, Psa_8:1 he preordained him to this low estate; he prepared a body for him, and had a very great hand in his sufferings and death; though neither of these were contrary to his will:
Thanks!! :thumbsup:thumbsup