The Recent Accusation of Racism Against the UPCI

[Charnock]

I was once very active here under a variety of usernames. My participation level decreased dramatically after I left the UPC, then Oneness Pentecostalism, a few years ago. I have written extensively against some of the doctrines of the UPCI-especially those related to standards and soteriology. Many of those articles remain online.

With that preface out of the way I'll get to the point of my post.

I watched the video alleging racism and read many of the comments which followed. I then read Superintendent Bernard's response which was posted as a release on the organization's website.

I have no doubt racism exists. I have no doubt ignorance exists. I also have no doubt that social media is often more of a curse than a blessing. Many people choose sides after only one side of an issue is posted. They dig in on an issue before hearing the WHOLE matter. This is true of accusations of sexual harassment, spiritual abuse, and even conversations that may or may not have taken place.

Though I am very happy with my life, and my choice to leave the movement, in hindsight I now regret using social media to air some of my grievances. Reason being people with axes to grind hijacked my story, using it for their own unrelated purposes.

We live in an age where people rate churches online as they would a restaurant, which is revolting. Others treat those ratings as truth. How sad.

I feel for the aggrieved couple, and pray they find belonging and healing.

And though I never thought I'd empathize with the UPCI again, I do. I pray that God can work this for their good.

Finally, I hate social media. Truly. Deeply. Madly.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I agree.

Airing one’s laundry on forums has been an issue for awhile. It is usually one sided. The other side is rarely heard because of their unwillingness to get into a hair pulling contest with their critics. This allows the critics to have the floor to the point of outrageous lunacy. The haters gather like wolves around the wounded, and close in to shred the victim. But that is part and parcel of religion. It’s teams, choosing sides. It’s a bad divorce and the children who sadly were the last to know are made to feel they need to choose sides. Social media gets everyone involved, the haters, and the heros. Truth usually slips out the back door and its presence is never missed.

[Amanah]

FPC Florida is multiracial.

Florida district has planted 52 daughter works.

Last Friday night at youth quake we the young people prayed at the altar till late into the night and ignored the service being dismissed. (a multiracial crowd without doubt)

Let the haters hate and the doubters and doubt. God will sort it all out.

[Originalist]

I have not seen the video, but I'd be curious to know what constitutes "racism" in the minds of the critics. Truthfully, I think false accusations of racism are a greater problem now than racism itself. Thus, I admit that I am usually skeptical from the start when such accusations are made.

[aegsm76]

I have never seen "racism" in the UPCI.
I have seen many pastors trying to make their churches more multi-cultural.
And most that do so, succeed.
I was raised in a church that was a mixture of white and indian.
We fellowshipped with the local PAW church which was mostly black.
And we never had a problem.
My old home church is now very multi-cultural with people of all colors and from all over the globe.

[Originalist]

I have never seen "racism" in the UPCI.
I have seen many pastors trying to make their churches more multi-cultural.
And most that do so, succeed.
I was raised in a church that was a mixture of white and indian.
We fellowshipped with the local PAW church which was mostly black.
And we never had a problem.
My old home church is now very multi-cultural with people of all colors and from all over the globe.

Having been affiliated with several Pentecostal fellowships (trinity and oneness) I concur with your perception of the UPCI. It is by far the most racially diverse fellowship I've ever seen. I believe rallying around the doctrine creates a racially transcendent unity not seen in churches that tend to downplay doctrine.

[n david]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=52841

Original thread regarding issue...

[Originalist]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=52841

Original thread regarding issue...

This is not "racism". Again, this broad definition of "racism" is often used as a bully tactic. While I certainly think some points of criticism had merit, the accusers took an accusatory tone, thus falsely maligning their brethren.

[jediwill83]

This is not "racism". Again, this broad definition of "racism" is often used a bully tactic. While I certainly think some points of criticism had merit, the accusers took and accusatory tone, thus falsely maligning their brethren.




Now now brother...check your privilege. lol

[Originalist]

Now now brother...check your privilege. lol

Leaving only will make the perceived problem worse. Even if the UPCI's approach was in error, the intent was genuine. The movement shows a genuine attempt to reach out to the black community. Instead of staying and educating, this church played the race card. I suspect they are lefties to begin with.

[n david]

In the first video, this couple refers to "systemic" racism in the UPCI. No examples are given, everything is kept vague. They mention there are no or very few minorities in the hierarchy of the UPCI, at both General and District levels. They mention the PAW had two leaders who were white (though failed to mention that this was in the 70s and 80s and since then the leadership of the PAW has been black from top down.) They demand some sort of resolution calling racism a sin and affirming the UPCI will vote anyone into office regardless of race. They say the video was a "last resort" due to being ignored by their District and by UPCI HQ.

The second video brings another demand -- gender equality! They wished to address accusations from the first video. They said they were accused of causing division, which they deny. They claim to have released the videos to bring healing. Please. You don't release a video making vague accusations against an organization to "bring healing." They said they were accused of being vague. They gave a story of meeting with the District board and someone on the District board asked about their interracial marriage and how their kids adapted. Also said the board told them there were some churches in the southern part of the district which may not be welcoming to interracial marriage. I can tell you there are likely black churches which also would not welcome interracial marriage. There are likely black churches which wouldn't welcome a white minister to preach. They again refer to the UPCI having "systemic" racism, but then say they know not everyone is racist. If they believe it's not widespread, not the whole of the UPCI, they shouldn't be calling it "systemic."

The wife is the leader, IMO. I've known and been around couples in ministry in which the wife took the dominant role.

She read a part in which a new demand is that the UPCI pass a resolution which states all positions be open to any race and gender. Never. Gonna. Happen.

First, no woman should be the GS or AGS. Not their role. Nor should the ladies ministry position be open for a man to be in charge or vice versa. Second, anyone can put their name in for office and receive votes.

This demand that there be resolutions passed against racism and opening positions to both genders is nothing more than liberal, social justice and feminist junk.

[n david]

This is not "racism". Again, this broad definition of "racism" is often used as a bully tactic. While I certainly think some points of criticism had merit, the accusers took an accusatory tone, thus falsely maligning their brethren.

I wonder if their proximity to Ferguson (20 minutes away), and the riots there from a few years ago, has played a role in this.

[Originalist]

I wonder if their proximity to Ferguson (20 minutes away), and the riots there from a few years ago, has played a role in this.

Bingo. I was thinking the same thing. And,as you noted, the term "systematic" now has just as broad of a definition as "racism" does.

[aegsm76]

Leaving only will make the perceived problem worse. Even if the UPCI's approach was in error, the intent was genuine. The movement shows a genuine attempt to reach out to the black community. Instead of staying and educating, this church played the race card. I suspect they are lefties to begin with.

I suspect there is more issues with "standards", than with racism.
Time will tell.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think it's more of female leading the man down the road called confusion. No offense to the well meaning couple. But, in their video we have the issue of "race" then something about female "pastor?" How that all got thrown together was not exactly made clear. But, the pastor and his wife, might just be the pastor and his pastor. Just my opinion, since I haven't the foggiest idea what their complaints actually are, or know their situation well enough. Yet, this is what Charnock may of been getting at in his thread. People come use the video feature on their phone and then cry wee...wee...wee....all the way home. The people in the cheap seats then try to figure out the one dimensional story. Elder Bernard and the United Pentecostal Church International then starts to come up with statements that they are not racists. I thought we are of the race of Christ? Once we come into the Church? We are of His lineage. We aren't Italians looking to be culturally Italian. Or Greeks to be culturally Greek. A Spanish church is Spanish because of a language barrier. Same with a Korean church and Haitian church. I had a 22 year old on the job who was born and raised in Hialeah Florida. He can't speak a word of English. Am I racist if I don't see that as a good thing? Our language in this country is English. I guess if you never set a foot out of Hialeah you are OK. But if you intend on working in the rest of the sunny state of Floreeda then you need to learn ENGLISH.

The church has nothing to apologize for, it doesn't have to apologize for Sunday School directors who are homosexuals, or song teachers who are homosexuals. Because the church doesn't teach that is acceptable. Same for racism. The UPCI DOESN'T TEACH OR PREACH RACISM. If a black or Spanish GS is not to be found. Then oh well, we just never had one run, or want to run. We can make all the accusations we want, and bring up all the spooky Halloween stories which have no credible witnesses. The next thing we will have will be women coming forward accusing leadership of moral failure. Because that is what is going on with the secular world. Racism, people coming forward after untold amount of years past, accusing individuals of moral failure. If the church doesn't cut itself loose on trying to please everyone by making apologies, then it will crumble under its apologies.

Why was the video made?

Oh, to help people with the same problem?

Well, actually, that doesn't really happen. It just causes people who may have similar situations to just pour gasoline on the problem. Instead of Holy Ghost on the problem.

[Sister Alvear]

I heard about it...but have not seen it or care too...

[n david]

I think it's more of female leading the man down the road called confusion. No offense to the well meaning couple. But, in their video we have the issue of "race" then something about female "pastor?" How that all got thrown together was not exactly made clear. But, the pastor and his wife, might just be the pastor and his pastor.
Is the A/P movement seeing a rise in feminists? How many are there like this couple, where the woman is the dominate spouse and the Minister/husband is a yes man, nodding along meekly to whatever his spouse says?

This may seem odd, but I saw a connection between the woman in the video and what I read from a recent Lady Gaga speech:

"""I spent a lot of time thinking about what I wanted to say tonight.

How does one rise to such an occasion when maybe you don't feel that inside? How does one accept where life has brought them and what it all means?

As I tried on dress after dress today, getting ready for this event, one tight corset after another, one heel after another, a diamond, a feather, thousands of beaded fabrics in the most beautiful silks in the world... to be honest? I felt sick to my stomach.

And I asked myself, what does it really mean to be a woman in Hollywood? We are not just objects to entertain the world. We are not simply images to bring smiles or grimaces to people's faces. We are not members of a giant beauty pageant to be pit against one another for the pleasures of the public.

We women in Hollywood, we have voices. We have deep thoughts and ideas and beliefs and values about the world, and we have the power to speak and be heard and fight back when we are silenced.

So after trying on ten or so dresses, with a sad feeling in my heart that all would matter was what I wore to this red carpet, I saw an oversized Marc Jacobs suit very quietly in the corner. I put it on, to a resounding view of eyes glaring at me in confusion. "But the Rodarte was so beautiful!" one said. "But the Raf Simons for Calvin Klein was so stunning on you! sad another.

"But what about the Braden Maxwell? What about the Dior?" Lots of questions.

They were all dresses. This was an oversized men's suit made for a woman. Not a gown. And then I began to cry.

In this suit, I felt like me today. In this suit, I felt the truth of who I am well up in my gut. And then, wondering what I wanted to say tonight became very clear to me.

As a sexual assault survivor by someone in the entertainment industry, as a woman who is still not brave enough to say his name, as a woman who lives with chronic pain, as a woman who was conditioned at a very young age to listen to what men told me to do, I decided today I wanted to take the power back. Today, I wear the pants."""

https://i2.wp.com/tsb.com.ng/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Lady-Gaga-rocks-oversized-suit-in-powerful-fashion-statement-tsb.com_.ng_.jpg?fit=551%2C491&ssl=1

Change some of the wording, and that is what I hear from the woman in the video. What she talks about during her reading bit on the video is modern feminism. She talks about having a seat at the table, not just being invited.

This is more than whatever alleged "systemic" racism they claim to have experienced. The second video about gender equality proves it.

[n david]

Gives his history in A/P churches before addressing the accusations around 11 minutes into the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kufM8v_kIo

[Amanah]

As a sexual assault survivor by someone in the entertainment industry, as a woman who is still not brave enough to say his name, as a woman who lives with chronic pain, as a woman who was conditioned at a very young age to listen to what men told me to do, I decided today I wanted to take the power back. Today, I wear the pants."""

https://i2.wp.com/tsb.com.ng/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Lady-Gaga-rocks-oversized-suit-in-powerful-fashion-statement-tsb.com_.ng_.jpg?fit=551%2C491&ssl=1


She says she wants to take back power, and yet she is exposing her chest like wares for sale. She is not free from the need to pay her way to success with sex. What kind of power is that?

[n david]

"""I will add, the body of Christ isn't Wakanda"""

https://twitter.com/DocTofer/status/1049687203461369856

:toofunny

[navygoat1998]

Having been affiliated with several Pentecostal fellowships (trinity and oneness) I concur with your perception of the UPCI. It is by far the most racially diverse fellowship I've ever seen. I believe rallying around the doctrine creates a racially transcendent unity not seen in churches that tend to downplay doctrine.

My wife attended Southbay UPCI and I (we) attended Truevine and both those churches were very racially diverse. Each had pastors on staff who were of many different colors.

Whatever issues I had with somethings, I would say that racism would not be one.

[navygoat1998]

Having been affiliated with several Pentecostal fellowships (trinity and oneness) I concur with your perception of the UPCI. It is by far the most racially diverse fellowship I've ever seen. I believe rallying around the doctrine creates a racially transcendent unity not seen in churches that tend to downplay doctrine.

The Assembly of God churches we have been a part of for the last 13 years have been diverse.

[Originalist]

The Assembly of God churches we have been a part of for the last 13 years have been diverse.

I watched some of the last General Council by live stream an was amazed at the diversity exhibited.

[1ofthechosen]

In the first video, this couple refers to "systemic" racism in the UPCI. No examples are given, everything is kept vague. They mention there are no or very few minorities in the hierarchy of the UPCI, at both General and District levels. They mention the PAW had two leaders who were white (though failed to mention that this was in the 70s and 80s and since then the leadership of the PAW has been black from top down.) They demand some sort of resolution calling racism a sin and affirming the UPCI will vote anyone into office regardless of race. They say the video was a "last resort" due to being ignored by their District and by UPCI HQ.

The second video brings another demand -- gender equality! They wished to address accusations from the first video. They said they were accused of causing division, which they deny. They claim to have released the videos to bring healing. Please. You don't release a video making vague accusations against an organization to "bring healing." They said they were accused of being vague. They gave a story of meeting with the District board and someone on the District board asked about their interracial marriage and how their kids adapted. Also said the board told them there were some churches in the southern part of the district which may not be welcoming to interracial marriage. I can tell you there are likely black churches which also would not welcome interracial marriage. There are likely black churches which wouldn't welcome a white minister to preach. They again refer to the UPCI having "systemic" racism, but then say they know not everyone is racist. If they believe it's not widespread, not the whole of the UPCI, they shouldn't be calling it "systemic."

The wife is the leader, IMO. I've known and been around couples in ministry in which the wife took the dominant role.

She read a part in which a new demand is that the UPCI pass a resolution which states all positions be open to any race and gender. Never. Gonna. Happen.

First, no woman should be the GS or AGS. Not their role. Nor should the ladies ministry position be open for a man to be in charge or vice versa. Second, anyone can put their name in for office and receive votes.

This demand that there be resolutions passed against racism and opening positions to both genders is nothing more than liberal, social justice and feminist junk.

I totally agree with that especially the part you can tell the woman is really the head in that relationship.. But sad to say lady you won't be the head of the UPCI! Good day! Lol

[TakingDominion]

I haven't watched the video nor do I care to. From reading the various comments here, it sounds like this couple has other reasons for leaving.

With that said, I will say it has bothered me from time to time that we don't have many POC in leadership positions. We need more culturally diverse pastors and not just a black bass player or usher. My humble opinion.

Not that it matters, but I am white.

[Esaias]

I haven't watched the video nor do I care to. From reading the various comments here, it sounds like this couple has other reasons for leaving.

With that said, I will say it has bothered me from time to time that we don't have many POC in leadership positions. We need more culturally diverse pastors and not just a black bass player or usher. My humble opinion.

Not that it matters, but I am white.

Does the PAW or COOLJC need more white people?

Also, when did white cease to be a color?

[returnman]

I think it's more of female leading the man down the road called confusion. No offense to the well meaning couple. But, in their video we have the issue of "race" then something about female "pastor?" How that all got thrown together was not exactly made clear. But, the pastor and his wife, might just be the pastor and his pastor. Just my opinion, since I haven't the foggiest idea what their complaints actually are, or know their situation well enough. Yet, this is what Charnock may of been getting at in his thread. People come use the video feature on their phone and then cry wee...wee...wee....all the way home. The people in the cheap seats then try to figure out the one dimensional story. Elder Bernard and the United Pentecostal Church International then starts to come up with statements that they are not racists. I thought we are of the race of Christ? Once we come into the Church? We are of His lineage. We aren't Italians looking to be culturally Italian. Or Greeks to be culturally Greek. A Spanish church is Spanish because of a language barrier. Same with a Korean church and Haitian church. I had a 22 year old on the job who was born and raised in Hialeah Florida. He can't speak a word of English. Am I racist if I don't see that as a good thing? Our language in this country is English. I guess if you never set a foot out of Hialeah you are OK. But if you intend on working in the rest of the sunny state of Floreeda then you need to learn ENGLISH.

The church has nothing to apologize for, it doesn't have to apologize for Sunday School directors who are homosexuals, or song teachers who are homosexuals. Because the church doesn't teach that is acceptable. Same for racism. The UPCI DOESN'T TEACH OR PREACH RACISM. If a black or Spanish GS is not to be found. Then oh well, we just never had one run, or want to run. We can make all the accusations we want, and bring up all the spooky Halloween stories which have no credible witnesses. The next thing we will have will be women coming forward accusing leadership of moral failure. Because that is what is going on with the secular world. Racism, people coming forward after untold amount of years past, accusing individuals of moral failure. If the church doesn't cut itself loose on trying to please everyone by making apologies, then it will crumble under its apologies.

Why was the video made?

Oh, to help people with the same problem?

Well, actually, that doesn't really happen. It just causes people who may have similar situations to just pour gasoline on the problem. Instead of Holy Ghost on the problem.

In between some of your sarcasm, lol, you are very wise and insightful. Cultural differences will always exist. As well as fellowship may be between the different races, and it should be, if we are completely honest we are most comfortable with folks of our own race. I'll dare say blacks even more so. That is not racism.

[TakingDominion]

Does the PAW or COOLJC need more white people?

Also, when did white cease to be a color?

Are you advocating for religious segregation? My pointing out a lack of diversity among leadership of the UPCI has nothing to do with any other organization.

Please understand, I'm 100% for the UPCI. I just believe this is an area we can do better. I have many black and hispanic brothers that will make dynamic pastors one day, if given the opportunity.

[Apostolic1ness]

Are you advocating for religious segregation? My pointing out a lack of diversity among leadership of the UPCI has nothing to do with any other organization.

Please understand, I'm 100% for the UPCI. I just believe this is an area we can do better. I have many black and hispanic brothers that will make dynamic pastors one day, if given the opportunity.

What about given the CALLING.

[Esaias]

Are you advocating for religious segregation? My pointing out a lack of diversity among leadership of the UPCI has nothing to do with any other organization.

Please understand, I'm 100% for the UPCI. I just believe this is an area we can do better. I have many black and hispanic brothers that will make dynamic pastors one day, if given the opportunity.

I'm saying since you said it "bothers" you that there aren't more blacks and browns in leadership positions in the UPC, are you also likewise "bothered" that there aren't more (any?) whites in leadership positions in the PAW or COOLJC?

I have noticed that basically all the "bothersomeness" about "diversity" seems only be directed at white-majority institutions, but everyone seems fine with black or brown or yellow or red majority institutions. Almost like "diversity" is a proposed virtue for only one group of people...

[Amanah]

I'm saying since you said it "bothers" you that there aren't more blacks and browns in leadership positions in the UPC, are you also likewise "bothered" that there aren't more (any?) whites in leadership positions in the PAW or COOLJC?

I have noticed that basically all the "bothersomeness" about "diversity" seems only be directed at white-majority institutions, but everyone seems fine with black or brown or yellow or red majority institutions. Almost like "diversity" is a proposed virtue for only one group of people...

You make good points Esaias.

I believe the concern should be that we are not discriminating against anyone, but we accept all that God adds to the church and calls/gifts for ministry. And I believe this is the case with the UPCI.

We don't need Apostolic Affirmative Action.

[houston]

We don’t attend the PAW or COOLJC. Some of us do attend the UPCI.

[Esaias]

What about given the CALLING.

This is what sister Amanah just alluded to. All too often, the demand for more diversity and "equalization" amounts to a demand for a quota, irrespective of quality, merit, or actual usefulness. In other words, "affirmative action". There aren't enough non-whites at the helm of the mothership, so we'd better get busy and appoint some - just because. Which is...

... classically racist, by the way. Appointing people to leadership JUST BECAUSE of ethnicity is about the purest form of racism possible.

On the flip side, completely ignoring ethnicity is a disservice and is dishonest (does not comport with reality). Who better to pastor Eskimos in Greenland than a converted Eskimo? I don't see anyone in the NT demanding the church in Jerusalem needed more "gentile diversity in its leadership", either.

The whole subject of " race" or ethnicity has been wrecked beyond possibility of reasonable discourse in most cases by activists and virtue signallers on all sides, none of whom are actually neutral, actually concerned about what's good for people, or actually interested in thinking about it Biblically.

[Esaias]

We don’t attend the PAW or COOLJC. Some of us do attend the UPCI.

So who cares about the PAW or COOLJC, then? Okie dokie, so since some of us don't attend the UPCI either, I guess who cares about that, too!

:happydance

[houston]

So who cares about the PAW or COOLJC, then? Okie dokie, so since some of us don't attend the UPCI either, I guess who cares about that, too!

:happydance


Practice those moves front of a mirra? :lol

[Esaias]

Practice those moves front of a mirra? :lol




I video my moves and play them back at 1/4 speed so I can get 'em down just right. I need more sequins on my white suit, though.

"Well, you can telllll by the way I use my walk...."

:shockamoo

[jediwill83]

Are you advocating for religious segregation? My pointing out a lack of diversity among leadership of the UPCI has nothing to do with any other organization.

Please understand, I'm 100% for the UPCI. I just believe this is an area we can do better. I have many black and hispanic brothers that will make dynamic pastors one day, if given the opportunity.


Can we fulfill the Great Commission without position?



Shouldnt that be our primary focus instead of jockeying for position and getting hurt when we dont get that position?




Mark 10:43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.



I have an ex friend whose father lost a church to another pastor that a board voted in...he was so caught up and obsessed over his destiny and Gods will being that HE was to pastor that church...thing is....he was doing absolutely nothing to minister to anyone while waiting...it was all about "I cant be effective until I have that position."


Go look at the old time Pentecostal pioneers who believed that once you spoke in tongues it automatically was a sentencing to the mission fields.


They would do their best to identify what language was being spoken when they were filled and then they would go....no board...no support...they believed and trusted God and God performed wonders and as they went He supplied the needs.


It was a precious thing and they suffered greatly but to them it was worth it.


The early church was beaten, stoned, boiled in oil, torn by wild dogs for being believers and preaching the gospel...nobody GAVE them a church...they WERE the church!


Their lack of position among men did not stop them from their ministry because they knew who they were in Christ!


Someone wants to be a pastor? Fine! Go witness and minister and form a congregation of believers and meet in homes!



Nobody is stopping you and cant stop you!


Dont whine and complain because no one will place you in your desired position in a man made organization.


If youre doing that, your priority isnt in the work...HIS work.


Big ole lost and dying world out here folks and they dont care about your nice suits and your crafted sermons and your artificial "atmospheres" and your churchisms and how gravelly you can make your preachers voice.

[houston]

I video my moves and play them back at 1/4 speed so I can get 'em down just right. I need more sequins on my white suit, though.

"Well, you can telllll by the way I use my walk...."

:shockamoo

LOL

[TakingDominion]

I'm saying since you said it "bothers" you that there aren't more blacks and browns in leadership positions in the UPC, are you also likewise "bothered" that there aren't more (any?) whites in leadership positions in the PAW or COOLJC?

I have noticed that basically all the "bothersomeness" about "diversity" seems only be directed at white-majority institutions, but everyone seems fine with black or brown or yellow or red majority institutions. Almost like "diversity" is a proposed virtue for only one group of people...

I am actually bothered by reverse racism in black institutions. I have never been a part of those organizations, so I choose to restrict my opinions towards a realm I am somewhat familiar.

Allow me to clarify my statement. We need more God called pastors and preachers of every color, every background.

I am not seeking any position. Honestly, I don't know where you would get that from what I posted. My friends that I mentioned are going out and preaching. I have a black friend that has started a nursing home ministry and will very soon be starting a new church by having Bible study in his home. I have a Puerto Rican friend that started a brand new bus route this week and had 16 people on it the first Sunday.

I've heard Bro. Urshan say, Sunday is the most racist day of the week. If we're truly the church, it shouldn't be so.

[TakingDominion]

Can we fulfill the Great Commission without position?



Shouldnt that be our primary focus instead of jockeying for position and getting hurt when we dont get that position?




Mark 10:43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.



I have an ex friend whose father lost a church to another pastor that a board voted in...he was so caught up and obsessed over his destiny and Gods will being that HE was to pastor that church...thing is....he was doing absolutely nothing to minister to anyone while waiting...it was all about "I cant be effective until I have that position."


Go look at the old time Pentecostal pioneers who believed that once you spoke in tongues it automatically was a sentencing to the mission fields.


They would do their best to identify what language was being spoken when they were filled and then they would go....no board...no support...they believed and trusted God and God performed wonders and as they went He supplied the needs.


It was a precious thing and they suffered greatly but to them it was worth it.


The early church was beaten, stoned, boiled in oil, torn by wild dogs for being believers and preaching the gospel...nobody GAVE them a church...they WERE the church!


Their lack of position among men did not stop them from their ministry because they knew who they were in Christ!


Someone wants to be a pastor? Fine! Go witness and minister and form a congregation of believers and meet in homes!



Nobody is stopping you and cant stop you!


Dont whine and complain because no one will place you in your desired position in a man made organization.


If youre doing that, your priority isnt in the work...HIS work.


Big ole lost and dying world out here folks and they dont care about your nice suits and your crafted sermons and your artificial "atmospheres" and your churchisms and how gravelly you can make your preachers voice.

Please let me know where I said anything that makes you think I'm jockeying for a position. My only point is that we need more pastors and preachers of different backgrounds, color, etc. I'm sorry if this offends. It is just an observation of mine.

Gravelly voices and nice suits??? What are you even talking about?

I'll say again. I am a white man and a preacher.

[Esaias]

I am actually bothered by reverse racism in black institutions. I have never been a part of those organizations, so I choose to restrict my opinions towards a realm I am somewhat familiar.

Why do we call it reverse racism, and not just racism?

Allow me to clarify my statement. We need more God called pastors and preachers of every color, every background.

What if God hasn't called a significant number for a certain purpose from a certain background? I mean, wouldn't it be more Christian to say we need whoever God calls? Rather than put a demand on God to call some nebulous amount from "every color, every background"? I mean, all twelve apostles were Hebrews, why didn't we get a couple Greeks, a couple Chinese, and an Aztec or two in there?

I am not seeking any position. Honestly, I don't know where you would get that from what I posted.

I think you are referring to jediwill's post?

I've heard Bro. Urshan say, Sunday is the most racist day of the week. If we're truly the church, it shouldn't be so.

Brother Urshan was wrong. Sunday is the designated high holy day of ancient Baal worship. And Baal was a firm believer in all kinds of equality - ethnic equality, gender equality, religious equality, etc. Except for God-fearing Hebrews, that is.

[1ofthechosen]

Can we fulfill the Great Commission without position?



Shouldnt that be our primary focus instead of jockeying for position and getting hurt when we dont get that position?




Mark 10:43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.



I have an ex friend whose father lost a church to another pastor that a board voted in...he was so caught up and obsessed over his destiny and Gods will being that HE was to pastor that church...thing is....he was doing absolutely nothing to minister to anyone while waiting...it was all about "I cant be effective until I have that position."


Go look at the old time Pentecostal pioneers who believed that once you spoke in tongues it automatically was a sentencing to the mission fields.


They would do their best to identify what language was being spoken when they were filled and then they would go....no board...no support...they believed and trusted God and God performed wonders and as they went He supplied the needs.


It was a precious thing and they suffered greatly but to them it was worth it.


The early church was beaten, stoned, boiled in oil, torn by wild dogs for being believers and preaching the gospel...nobody GAVE them a church...they WERE the church!


Their lack of position among men did not stop them from their ministry because they knew who they were in Christ!


Someone wants to be a pastor? Fine! Go witness and minister and form a congregation of believers and meet in homes!



Nobody is stopping you and cant stop you!


Dont whine and complain because no one will place you in your desired position in a man made organization.


If youre doing that, your priority isnt in the work...HIS work.


Big ole lost and dying world out here folks and they dont care about your nice suits and your crafted sermons and your artificial "atmospheres" and your churchisms and how gravelly you can make your preachers voice.


I 100% agree with that bro!:thumbsup

[jediwill83]

I apologize if what Ive posted seems attacky...its not my intent to lambaste anyone participating in the discussion.



If it seems that way I sincerely apologize....however.....



If we are focused on what shade skin suit we are wearing we miss the whole point of its not us that lives...but CHRIST in us!


The whole argument of racism in the church is a big promotion of "Me Me Me"



"Look what so and so did to me"


"Look how offended I am"


Again....we are focused entirely on self...not HIM.


My offense
My experience
My trauma
My abuse


Quit claiming that mess and putting your name on it.


I dont l know if Ive posted this before but everybody and their granny is taking pot shots at everybody because they feel they are justified in unforgiveness.


#metoo?


How about focusing on the Cross where as Jesus bled and died he looked at our sins and said "those too".


crazy division in the world.


Everything that can be divided is being divided and falling apart.


Who will stand up and repent and lead us in that?


Wouldnt it have been amazing of the people in the video would have offered forgiveness for the slight that they are claiming so maligned them?


Jesus is the first minister of reconciliation and if you claim to have His Spirit in you walking in you and talking in you shouldnt your words and action exemplify His?


We were assured Christ offenses would come....HORRIBLE offenses....I never read that He gives instruction for us to kick rocks over it.

[Brother Lane]

I remember Bro Joel Holmes of FPC of NLR mentioning this website many years ago during a service and telling the saints to stay away from it. Now I fully understand why. Before becoming a member I would visit the site and read through the threads and finally decided to become a member. That was a mistake. God bless you all. May the Lord Jesus be with you all.

[Esaias]

I remember Bro Joel Holmes of FPC of NLR mentioning this website many years ago during a service and telling the saints to stay away from it. Now I fully understand why. Before becoming a member I would visit the site and read through the threads and finally decided to become a member. That was a mistake. God bless you all. May the Lord Jesus be with you all.

What?

[houston]

What?

:lol

[Carl]

I remember Bro Joel Holmes of FPC of NLR mentioning this website many years ago during a service and telling the saints to stay away from it. Now I fully understand why. Before becoming a member I would visit the site and read through the threads and finally decided to become a member. That was a mistake. God bless you all. May the Lord Jesus be with you all.

Why?

[Evang.Benincasa]

What?

:heeheehee :highfive

[jediwill83]

I remember Bro Joel Holmes of FPC of NLR mentioning this website many years ago during a service and telling the saints to stay away from it. Now I fully understand why. Before becoming a member I would visit the site and read through the threads and finally decided to become a member. That was a mistake. God bless you all. May the Lord Jesus be with you all.


If we are such morally bankrupt leperous reprobates why are you wishing us Godspeed? Knock the dust off your flipflops and put us dead center of the rear view. No need to broadcast your superior virtues by announcing your intended departure. Ive been here for a bit and this is the first post I remember ever reading from you so I cant exactly say you will be missed if I never knew who you were in the first place.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I remember Bro Joel Holmes of FPC of NLR mentioning this website many years ago during a service and telling the saints to stay away from it. Now I fully understand why. Before becoming a member I would visit the site and read through the threads and finally decided to become a member. That was a mistake. God bless you all. May the Lord Jesus be with you all.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/doc-rivers.gif

[FlamingZword]

Why do we call it reverse racism, and not just racism?

You are right racism is racism, however we call it reverse racism, because it means that in the past racism was mostly the view of that majority which was in power, which at that time happened to be mostly Anglo Saxon in the USA.

Because of their power they could structure the legal system, economic system, educational system and basically all other systems to be favorable to their race.

Which is what a majority group usually does, in other countries theirs systems happened to favor the majority of their own race.

[Praxeas]

In the first video, this couple refers to "systemic" racism in the UPCI. No examples are given, everything is kept vague. They mention there are no or very few minorities in the hierarchy of the UPCI, at both General and District levels. They mention the PAW had two leaders who were white (though failed to mention that this was in the 70s and 80s and since then the leadership of the PAW has been black from top down.) They demand some sort of resolution calling racism a sin and affirming the UPCI will vote anyone into office regardless of race. They say the video was a "last resort" due to being ignored by their District and by UPCI HQ.

The second video brings another demand -- gender equality! They wished to address accusations from the first video. They said they were accused of causing division, which they deny. They claim to have released the videos to bring healing. Please. You don't release a video making vague accusations against an organization to "bring healing." They said they were accused of being vague. They gave a story of meeting with the District board and someone on the District board asked about their interracial marriage and how their kids adapted. Also said the board told them there were some churches in the southern part of the district which may not be welcoming to interracial marriage. I can tell you there are likely black churches which also would not welcome interracial marriage. There are likely black churches which wouldn't welcome a white minister to preach. They again refer to the UPCI having "systemic" racism, but then say they know not everyone is racist. If they believe it's not widespread, not the whole of the UPCI, they shouldn't be calling it "systemic."

The wife is the leader, IMO. I've known and been around couples in ministry in which the wife took the dominant role.

She read a part in which a new demand is that the UPCI pass a resolution which states all positions be open to any race and gender. Never. Gonna. Happen.

First, no woman should be the GS or AGS. Not their role. Nor should the ladies ministry position be open for a man to be in charge or vice versa. Second, anyone can put their name in for office and receive votes.

This demand that there be resolutions passed against racism and opening positions to both genders is nothing more than liberal, social justice and feminist junk.
Racism is very much a black, asian and Hispanic thing. Portraying as a white thing is absurd. All races have racist tendencies