any thoughts on Firstfruits

[Sister Alvear]

We are discussing this on a church debate here in Brazil...

[Sister Alvear]

Your thoughts appreciated...

[Evang.Benincasa]

We are discussing this on a church debate here in Brazil...

Sis, I need a little more information then just "firstfruits"

Jesus being the first fruit? First fruit in the thought of a system in offerings?

What exactly is being debated?

Anyway, it seems the Internet sure has beat the brains out of the third worlders.

[Michael The Disciple]

The firstfruits IMO is those end time overcomers who mature ahead of the harvest. They will come to full stature before the rest.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So, let's keep guessing until she comes back and really tells us what he is looking for. :heeheehee

[n david]

First fruits are the grapes I eat while shopping at the grocery store....

[Evang.Benincasa]

First fruits are the grapes I eat while shopping at the grocery store....


:thumbsup

[jediwill83]

Well....SOMEBODY has to go first in the gay pride parades.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Well....SOMEBODY has to go first in the gay pride parades.

:heeheehee

[Michael The Disciple]

All saints are commanded to be perfect, that is like Jesus. All who will ultimately be saved. There is coming a generation where things come to an end.

The call to full stature will again go forth. The firstfruits will be the ones who take it seriously. They will be obedient to Jesus AND be like him.

They wont be the only ones to attain perfection in that generation, but they will be the first.

[Esaias]

All saints are commanded to be perfect, that is like Jesus. All who will ultimately be saved. There is coming a generation where things come to an end.

The call to full stature will again go forth. The firstfruits will be the ones who take it seriously. They will be obedient to Jesus AND be like him.

They wont be the only ones to attain perfection in that generation, but they will be the first.

Now, can you support all this with Scripture?

[Evang.Benincasa]

All saints are commanded to be perfect, that is like Jesus. All who will ultimately be saved. There is coming a generation where things come to an end.

The call to full stature will again go forth. The firstfruits will be the ones who take it seriously. They will be obedient to Jesus AND be like him.

They wont be the only ones to attain perfection in that generation, but they will be the first.

They will AGAIN go forth? You mean there was a very first fruit and then there will be a second first fruit? Yet, wouldn't that really be a second fruit?

[Evang.Benincasa]

All saints are commanded to be perfect, that is like Jesus. All who will ultimately be saved. There is coming a generation where things come to an end.

The call to full stature will again go forth. The firstfruits will be the ones who take it seriously. They will be obedient to Jesus AND be like him.

They wont be the only ones to attain perfection in that generation, but they will be the first.

Acts 5:32, is obeying Jesus different then obeying God?

Did Jesus mean Matthew 5:48 was for your future group?

Therefore 1 John 3:3 isn't meant for anyone for 2,000 years and counting?

[Esaias]

How does a final end time last generation harvest become a first fruits harvest? First fruits of what?

I figured first fruits was the early generation of Christians (beginning with Pentecost, you know, the Feast of First Fruits), to be followed by a long period of labour in the fields unto the Final year end harvest (Ingathering, aka Tabernacles), which completes the prophetic cycle?

[Esaias]

Acts 5:32, is obeying Jesus different then obeying God?

Did Jesus mean Matthew 5:48 was for your future group?

Therefore 1 John 3:3 isn't meant for anyone for 2,000 years and counting?

:thumbsup

A lot of people look out over the landscape, and are underwhelmed with what they see: low quality Christianity. So they yearn for something more and better, and thus begin to believe Something Big™ is on the way. While it is true God's Purposes for mankind will be completed, nevertheless this expectationism lends itself to easy manipulation by merchants of religious laudanum. The poor victims don't realize they've been wearing the ruby slippers all along...

[Esaias]

But getting back to sister Alvear's question...

First fruits literally means the first fruit of a harvest. Plant a garden and the first, early batch of harvestable fruit is the "first fruits". It's a foretaste of what comes later when the garden is in full harvest mode.

First fruits was also a term for the early harvest in spring/summer (Pentecost season), as it was the first main harvest (followed by the latter, end of year harvest at Ingathering or Tabernacles in the fall).

Biblically, the first fruits of harvest, as well as the firstlings of animals (cows, sheep, etc), were offered to God. That is, a portion of the first fruits or of the firstlings were offered in sacrifice to God, to sanctify the rest of the harvest or flock and to give thanks to God for His Providence.

This principal also applied to the firstborn of humans, who were not sacrificed but redeemed instead.

[Esaias]

Nehemiah 10:34-37 is a summary illustration of the law regarding the first fruits.

See also Proverbs 3:9 and Exodus 22:29-30.

[Evang.Benincasa]

:thumbsup

A lot of people look out over the landscape, and are underwhelmed with what they see: low quality Christianity. So they yearn for something more and better, and thus begin to believe Something Big™ is on the way. While it is true God's Purposes for mankind will be completed, nevertheless this expectationism lends itself to easy manipulation by merchants of religious laudanum. The poor victims don't realize they've been wearing the ruby slippers all along...

Excellent :thumbsup :highfive

[Michael The Disciple]

:thumbsup

A lot of people look out over the landscape, and are underwhelmed with what they see: low quality Christianity. So they yearn for something more and better, and thus begin to believe Something Big™ is on the way. While it is true God's Purposes for mankind will be completed, nevertheless this expectationism lends itself to easy manipulation by merchants of religious laudanum. The poor victims don't realize they've been wearing the ruby slippers all along...

Count me in on thinking something bigger and better is coming. I still believe Jesus is coming to the earth to take his bride. But not that he will accept a bride such as what is supposed to be the bride today.

I dont consider myself a "poor victim". I have hope the Spirit given scriptures will be fulfilled.

Eph. 2:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Jesus is waiting for such a Church to be found.

James 5:7

7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

When he sees the "precious fruit" of an overcoming Church, a bride the same stature of himself he will come for her.

[Esaias]

But not that he will accept a bride such as what is supposed to be the bride today.



Jesus is waiting for such a Church to be found.



When he sees the "precious fruit" of an overcoming Church, a bride the same stature of himself he will come for her.

So basically, everyone today is lost, there is no Bride at this time?

Hey, wait a minute, the scripture you posted said Christ cleanses and washes Her and presents Her to Himself spotless. So, the cleansing and wrinkle re-moving work is His to make. So if there is no pure and holy church, who's fault is it?

I think you have an erroneous view of things. Much like dispensationalism with it's "parenthesis in prophecy program" you too seem to have some kind of parenthesis or gap going on.

[Esaias]

Eph. 2:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Jesus is waiting for such a Church to be found.



The more I think about it, the more I feel the bolded sentiment quoted above amounts to a denial of the Atonement and affirms legalism (justification by works).

1. Christ accomplished the Atonement already. In the Atonement we are washed, justified, sanctified. Because of the Atonement, we are also the church. Therefore, because of the Atonement, Christ has established a washed (clean), justified (righteous), and sanctified (holy) church. It's already been done. To say Jesus is still, after 2000 years, "waiting for such a church to be found" is to deny that such a church exists or has ever existed. Which is to deny that Jesus has in fact washed, justified, and sanctified a people to Himself. Which means His Atonement was a failure.

2. Since Jesus couldn't do it Himself, and still apparently can't get it done, He is in heaven twiddling thumbs waiting for the church to get her act together. The Work of Christ is not sufficient to wash, justify, and sanctify a people to Himself, instead WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING IN ADDITION TO HIS ATONEMENT in order to be free from blame or spot (washed, justified, and sanctified). This is legalism if ever there was such a thing. Works based "Christian" religion is ALWAYS Jesus plus something else. There is nothing whatsoever that a person can add to the Atonement to get washed, justified, and sanctified. All one can do is RECEIVE THAT WASHING, JUSTIFICATION, and SANCTIFICATION by faith, and by the grace of God and faith of Jesus maintain that washing, justification, and sanctification. NOT by ADDING our own efforts to what Christ has done, but by allowing Him to live His life in us by faith. But when it supposed that God's people are wholly spotted, unwashed, unjustified, and unsanctified, and further that Jesus is "waiting" for the church to be washed, justified, and sanctified, it necessarily follows that He is waiting for the church to wash, justify, and sanctify ITSELF through some mechanism OTHER THAN FAITH IN THE ATONEMENT.

And if it be argued that Christians do not currently have faith in the Atonement, then it follows they are not Christians at all, and there is no church in the earth NOW.

[Esaias]

Sis, I need a little more information then just "firstfruits"

Jesus being the first fruit? First fruit in the thought of a system in offerings?

What exactly is being debated?

Anyway, it seems the Internet sure has beat the brains out of the third worlders.

If it is a debate, I suspect it has to do with how much money goes in the plate? That is, first fruits as a required financial offering under the New Covenant? That would be my guess.

Either that, or there is a debate concerning who gets to be the privileged position of "First Fruit" in the eschatological church? Kind of like what Mike appears to be saying? Which if that is the case honestly sounds like kids arguing over who gets to be the firstborn...?

[Truthseeker]

First fruits are the grapes I eat while shopping at the grocery store....

That's not first fruits, that's called stealing. :smack

[Sister Alvear]

Actually it is a debate forum...but I think the person really wants to know what the feasts of Israel have to do with us today and perhaps is there some future meaning. I did my best with my little knowledge to explain in my understanding however some of you may have and probably do have deeper insights on this subject. Does firstfruits have anything to do with the church today? Is it just an Old Testament feast? I think the person really just wanted some thoughts along these lines.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Count me in on thinking something bigger and better is coming. I still believe Jesus is coming to the earth to take his bride. But NOT that he will accept a bride such as what is supposed to be the bride today.

Which means there is no bride today.





I dont consider myself a "poor victim". I have hope the Spirit given scriptures will be fulfilled.

Eph. 2:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Jesus is waiting for such a Church to be found.

James 5:7

7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

When he sees the "precious fruit" of an overcoming Church, a bride the same stature of himself he will come for her.

Mike, seriously, taking your first quote and reading this quote, makes it sounds like there is no church today. By your standard. There will be a church in some far off future time (since you can't find it now) waiting to be born? Is that why you remain cloistered without any form of eldership in your life? No group of believers outside of your internet viewing? Because there is no Bride of Christ on the earth currently? This poses another question. What are you doing to help bring in this special group of believers? Are YOU one of them?

[houston]

This. Is. Hilarious. And yet so sad at the same time.

Hilarisad... Sadlarious... hmmm

[consapente89]

:thumbsup

A lot of people look out over the landscape, and are underwhelmed with what they see: low quality Christianity. So they yearn for something more and better, and thus begin to believe Something Big™ is on the way. While it is true God's Purposes for mankind will be completed, nevertheless this expectationism lends itself to easy manipulation by merchants of religious laudanum. The poor victims don't realize they've been wearing the ruby slippers all along...

That will preach!

[Michael The Disciple]

So basically, everyone today is lost, there is no Bride at this time?

Hey, wait a minute, the scripture you posted said Christ cleanses and washes Her and presents Her to Himself spotless. So, the cleansing and wrinkle re-moving work is His to make. So if there is no pure and holy church, who's fault is it?

I think you have an erroneous view of things. Much like dispensationalism with it's "parenthesis in prophecy program" you too seem to have some kind of parenthesis or gap going on.

Of course I never said no one is saved now. I said there is a generation coming where things will have an end. At that time when Jesus comes anyone alive at that time yes will have to be perfect if they are to be ready for that day.

That in no way excuses all the rest of believers from Pentecost to his coming from being perfect. When the resurrection occurs, just before the catching up of the living only Christians who were perfect will come out of the ground.

My point is that for many generations in history there has NOT been an OVERCOMING Church in the corporate sense. Yes there have been overcomers here and there ever since the first century, but nothing like what we will see by the time Jesus comes.

In the CORPORATE sense there were not even Churches that baptized in Jesus name and believed in Oneness until about 100 years ago. Now dont mistake that for me saying there never were such Churches. The Church began falling into darkness by the 3rd century and in time lost ALMOST EVERYTHING as to truth.

So unless one judges by the hated "light doctrine" it is clear that the great multitude of "Christians" of most generations died lost. I personally believe there were small pockets of overcomers in each generation but obviously not large enough to be noticed by history.

The great multitude of saints seen in the vision of Rev. 7:9-14 are from every nation. This end time last generation setting lets us know there must be a revival/restoration before Jesus comes.

Rev 7:9-14

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is the harvest. Yes there will be saints in it that died and were saved from other generations but I believe most of the ones who will be harvested will be from the last generation Church.

[Michael The Disciple]

Esaias

Hey, wait a minute, the scripture you posted said Christ cleanses and washes Her and presents Her to Himself spotless. So, the cleansing and wrinkle re-moving work is His to make. So if there is no pure and holy church, who's fault is it?

Is it the fault of Jesus? You sound like the ones I talk to regularly who teach "finished work". Man has no responsibilty to walk by faith and obedience?

[Michael The Disciple]

Sister Alvear

Does firstfruits have anything to do with the church today? Is it just an Old Testament feast?

So far according to what has been said thats it!

[Michael The Disciple]

They will AGAIN go forth? You mean there was a very first fruit and then there will be a second first fruit? Yet, wouldn't that really be a second fruit?

The call to full stature has hardly been preached even in this generation where far more light has been available than in the last 1600 years or so. I have personally been among Pentecostals, Charismatics, and Apostolics for over 40 years and have RARELY heard any teaching about going on to full stature.

So yes there must be a move of God appear in the Churches of teaching this very thing. Jesus is coming for a spotless bride. One the same stature as himself. Saints of former generations who were overcomers will be part of this.

Ephesians 4:11-13

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Remember, it is OVERCOMERS who are promised eternal life. Those with sin in their life, lukewarm, and walking in heresy are promised nothing but judgement.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Of course I never said no one is saved now. I said there is a generation coming where things will have an end. At that time when Jesus comes anyone alive at that time yes will have to be perfect if they are to be ready for that day.

That in no way excuses all the rest of believers from Pentecost to his coming from being perfect. When the resurrection occurs, just before the catching up of the living only Christians who were perfect will come out of the ground.

My point is that for many generations in history there has NOT been an OVERCOMING Church in the corporate sense. Yes there have been overcomers here and there ever since the first century, but nothing like what we will see by the time Jesus comes.

In the CORPORATE sense there were not even Churches that baptized in Jesus name and believed in Oneness until about 100 years ago. Now dont mistake that for me saying there never were such Churches. The Church began falling into darkness by the 3rd century and in time lost ALMOST EVERYTHING as to truth.

So unless one judges by the hated "light doctrine" it is clear that the great multitude of "Christians" of most generations died lost. I personally believe there were small pockets of overcomers in each generation but obviously not large enough to be noticed by history.

The great multitude of saints seen in the vision of Rev. 7:9-14 are from every nation. This end time last generation setting lets us know there must be a revival/restoration before Jesus comes.

Rev 7:9-14

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is the harvest. Yes there will be saints in it that died and were saved from other generations but I believe most of the ones who will be harvested will be from the last generation Church.

In Revelation 7:9-14 the multitude cannot be numbered. Like stars in the universe, sands on the earth. Which meant to the ancients a number of infinite size. If that isn't the case someone is going to be disappointed. Because even every human on earth at any given time can be counted. This number we are shown cannot be counted. The only number we are given is of the tribes which come to form a perfect cube. Mike, this future group differs from all who came before in what way? Also where did the Apostles teach about this special generation?

[Michael The Disciple]

Esaias

2. Since Jesus couldn't do it Himself, and still apparently can't get it done, He is in heaven twiddling thumbs waiting for the church to get her act together. The Work of Christ is not sufficient to wash, justify, and sanctify a people to Himself, instead WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING IN ADDITION TO HIS ATONEMENT in order to be free from blame or spot (washed, justified, and sanctified). This is legalism if ever there was such a thing. Works based "Christian" religion is ALWAYS Jesus plus something else.

Here you teach a doctrine taught by Evangelicals the "finished work" doctrine. Along with the Trinity it is their most cherished doctrine.

All one can do is RECEIVE THAT WASHING, JUSTIFICATION, and SANCTIFICATION by faith, and by the grace of God and faith of Jesus maintain that washing, justification, and sanctification.

Now here you take the same position as scripture which is the same position I take.

Yes we receive everything by grace through faith. We cant add "our own works" to salvation.

But note a word you used I have bolded.

MAINTAIN.

One word makes a great deal of difference. With it, you draw a line between yourselves and the Evangelicals. It is exactly how I myself would describe it. Why would you allow this qualification for yourself, yet deny it for me?

Christ has made us perfect by the new birth. Yet we must by faith MAINTAIN our garments. MAINTAIN that perfection.

My point is that historically since the initial falling away of the Apostolic Church it is next to impossible to find a Church that has MAINTAINED this standard. Therefore this standard must be recovered, not by "our own works" but by faith in Jesus.

The faith like this:

Phil. 2:12-13

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The call to full stature has hardly been preached even in this generation where far more light has been available than in the last 1600 years or so. I have personally been among Pentecostals, Charismatics, and Apostolics for over 40 years and have RARELY heard any teaching about going on to full stature.

So yes there must be a move of God appear in the Churches of teaching this very thing. Jesus is coming for a spotless bride. One the same stature as himself. Saints of former generations who were overcomers will be part of this.

Ephesians 4:11-13

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Remember, it is OVERCOMERS who are promised eternal life. Those with sin in their life, lukewarm, and walking in heresy are promised nothing but judgement.

Mike, this has to be the most convoluted issue you have ever presented. You should go back and reread Esaias' posts. It actually sounds like you don't believe there is a Church, let alone a remnant. Pockets of believers throughout history? Are you part of those pockets? Again is that why you are cloistered in your trailer having ecclesiastical interaction via Internet only?

Mike, this isn't a new thing, this is a latter day special revival where a special group (usually Jewish) are enlightened to truth. Some teach the 144,000 Jewish evangelists, who go out and convert a special people who are as pure as virgins. Which makes it out like for 2,000 years the Apostolic message was lacking, and the Holy Ghost unable to change lives. I know you don't believe that the Holy Ghost is unable to change lives, but that is how what you are telling us makes no sense. It doesn't even make sense to you. How on earth do you think it can make sense to us?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Here you teach a doctrine taught by Evangelicals the "finished work" doctrine. Along with the Trinity it is their most cherished doctrine.



Now here you take the same position as scripture which is the same position I take.

Yes we receive everything by grace through faith. We cant add "our own works" to salvation.

But note a word you used I have bolded.

MAINTAIN.

One word makes a great deal of difference. With it, you draw a line between yourselves and the Evangelicals. It is exactly how I myself would describe it. Why would you allow this qualification for yourself, yet deny it for me?

Christ has made us perfect by the new birth. Yet we must by faith MAINTAIN our garments. MAINTAIN that perfection.

My point is that historically since the initial falling away of the Apostolic Church it is next to impossible to find a Church that has MAINTAINED this standard. Therefore this standard must be recovered, not by "our own works" but by faith in Jesus.

The faith like this:

Phil. 2:12-13

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Initial falling away of the Apostolic church was when?

Also the maintaining is done through the Holy Ghost, and not by ourselves which we could boast. Gates of the grave cannot hold the church, to be in Her is to be overcoming through Christ. Those who fall away went out from the church because as we are told they were never of the church to begin with. Plain and simple, this is where some get it and others don't. Saints of light have been delivered out of "ignorance" aka darkness Colossians 1:12-13, Acts 26:18. This has been happening since day 1, and will continue as long as we are preaching and teaching the Kingdom.

[Michael The Disciple]

Initial falling away of the Apostolic church was when?

Also the maintaining is done through the Holy Ghost, and not by ourselves which we could boast. Gates of the grave cannot hold the church, to be in Her is to be overcoming through Christ. Those who fall away went out from the church because as we are told they were never of the church to begin with. Plain and simple, this is where some get it and others don't. Saints of light have been delivered out of "ignorance" aka darkness Colossians 1:12-13, Acts 26:18. This has been happening since day 1, and will continue as long as we are preaching and teaching the Kingdom.

The maintaining is done by the Holy Ghost by faith. If your faith weakens over time you will no longer take up the cross and deny yourself to be like Jesus. When one overcomes by faith in Jesus it is not boasting.

I see now a great revelation why you and I have been so far apart.

You believe in once saved always saved. Now I get it.

This is just as bad as believing Jesus came and resurrected and raptured his Church in 70 ad.

[Esaias]

Here you teach a doctrine taught by Evangelicals the "finished work" doctrine. Along with the Trinity it is their most cherished doctrine.





I don't think doctrine and theology is your forte, brother. Just saying.

[Esaias]

I see now a great revelation why you and I have been so far apart.

You believe in once saved always saved. Now I get it.



I, too, now see a great revelation: you, generally speaking, on most subjects, have no idea what you're talking about.

[Esaias]

Sister Alvear

Does firstfruits have anything to do with the church today? Is it just an Old Testament feast?

So far according to what has been said thats it!

Yep. You definitely don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[Michael The Disciple]

I, too, now see a great revelation: you, generally speaking, on most subjects, have no idea what you're talking about.

When I see THIS....I know it as OSAS.

Those who fall away went out from the church because as we are told they were never of the church to begin with. Plain and simple, this is where some get it and others don't.

OSAS says if you fall away you were never saved. Have you converted to this also?

[Esaias]

Actually it is a debate forum...but I think the person really wants to know what the feasts of Israel have to do with us today and perhaps is there some future meaning. I did my best with my little knowledge to explain in my understanding however some of you may have and probably do have deeper insights on this subject. Does firstfruits have anything to do with the church today? Is it just an Old Testament feast? I think the person really just wanted some thoughts along these lines.

Sister, read my thread "Beyond Pentecost", and also the thread "Prophetic Fulfillment of Passover". Also " Happy Pentecost".

Beyond Pentecost: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=52914

Prophetic Fulfillment: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50091

Happy Pentecost: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=1485671

[Michael The Disciple]

Dom

Which makes it out like for 2,000 years the Apostolic message was lacking, and the Holy Ghost unable to change lives.

There is no historical record of Churches that believed in Oneness, baptized in Jesus name, and received the Holy Ghost with tongues following for an approximate time of 500 ad till 1914. Much less other foundation truth. If you attempt to refute this bring historical fact not hot air.

I am in no way saying the message was not preached somewhere in the Earth in those days. I'm saying it was so limited in its scope history records nothing of it. I believe souls had this experience through the generations but apparently very few.

So the word and the Spirit were active and producing fruit in those who were walking in it.

[Esaias]

Sister, read my thread "Beyond Pentecost", and also the thread "Prophetic Fulfillment of Passover". Also " Happy Pentecost".

Beyond Pentecost: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=52914

Prophetic Fulfillment: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50091

Happy Pentecost: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=1485671

From the prophetic fulfillment thread:

Just a quick blurb about this subject.

The Feasts or Appointed Times of the Lord have four levels of signification. The first of course is the historical. Passover was a commemoration of the Exodus from Egypt, for example. The second is Christological. The Passover looked forward to the cross as Christ became soteriological Passover Lamb accomplishing our deliverance, for example. The third is experiential. We must each of us have a personal Passover or Calvary experience, whereby not only do we 'eat' the Passover (the cross applied to our lives) but we must also take up our own cross and 'die to self' on our personal, God-ordained Golgotha, ie we identify with Christ in his death, for example. And the fourth is eschatological. Paul says the feasts are 'shadows of things coming', ie still future from when he wrote those words. (I understand this last point will be debatable by my preterist friends, but that's not what this thread is about, so bear with me a moment.)

Now, we know that Christ died on Passover. As such, he fulfilled the Passover. Yet, in Hebrews we read that Christ also fulfills the Atonement. Now, the Day of Atonement was in the fall, and did not take place during Passover. For years I had wondered 'Why, if Christ fulfills the Day of Atonement, did he not die on the day of Atonement?'

First of all, he had to die on a particular day, so it couldn't be both. It would have to be one or the other.

Second, the Day of Atonement was meant to secure the ongoing atonement of the nation. But without Passover there would be no nation to be atoned for. So, the Day of Atonement depends on the Passover.

Third, the Day of Atonement occurs in the seventh month. The Passover occurs in the first month. To determine the seventh month, one has to know when the first month is. Thus, again, Atonement depends on Passover.

Fourth, the Passover is merely part of a larger Feast, the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This feast is a seven day feast that actually spans eight days. The first day is the Passover day itself, when the lamb is killed and roasted. That night, the Lamb is eaten. This would be the 'first day of unleavened bread' properly speaking. This day was a Sabbath, and the day after that would be the presentation and waving of the 'omer' or 'sheaf of the firstfruits'. So the third day, technically speaking, of the whole festal period is the 'omer' day. Then, the last day, or seventh day of the week of Unleavened Bread, is also a Sabbath.

What we see here is a pattern: The first, the third, and the seventh. The first is when the Lamb is slain. The third is the presentation of the representative firstfruit. The seventh is the culmination or completion.

The Feasts themselves follow a similar pattern of first, third, and seventh. The first month is Passover/Unleavened Bread, the third month is Pentecost or feast of firstfruits, and the seventh month is Trumpets (announcing the beginning of the seventh month), Atonement, and Tabernacles (another 8 day feast).

So then, within the first Feast period of Passover/Unleavened Bread, there is contained in a seed form the entire cycle of yearly Feasts. Or to put it another way, the Passover/Unleavened Bread cycle is a typological representation or template for the entire Feast calendar for the whole year.

So, in conclusion, the Day of Atonement is contained in seed form within the Passover cycle, and is dependent upon the Passover for it's existence and timing. Thus, when Christ died at Passover, he fulfilled in typological form the entire yearly Feast cycle.

This corresponds not merely to the day he died, but to the entire week.

On Passover he died. He was in the tomb during the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread. He rose the third day as the 'omer' of the resurrection, the proto-typical firstfruit signalling the Pentecost harvest of 'firstfruits' would be acceptable. Likewise, his resurrection is a type of the new life we receive by the gift of the Spirit, which was poured out on the feast of firstfruits aka Pentecost. He appeared to his disciples several times over the next week much to their amazement, signifying a 'Tabernacles' experience much as God tabernacled with Israel in the wilderness (which is what Tabernacles' historical purpose was to commemorate).

So, in a sense, the Passover week was a Christological fulfillment of the whole yearly Feast cycle. And thus, he was able to fulfill the Atonement without having to actually die on the actual Day of Atonement.

Note1: I realise some hold to either a Wednesday crucifixion or a Thursday crucifixion. This thread is not designed to debate that issue (we can do that in another thread if anyone wants?) but merely to point out how Atonement is satisfied even though his death was not on the Day of Atonement.

Note2: During the Exodus event, Israel wound up at Marah on or right about what would be the seventh day of Unleavened Bread. Then they arrived at Sinai shortly before the day of what would be Pentecost. Pentecost is fifty days from Passover (technically from the omer day). Jesus stayed with the apostles for forty days after his resurrection, leaving them ten days to wait in preparation and prayer until Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out. The time he spent with them he spoke to them about the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. Israel's history in those first fifty days between the Exodus and Sinai give interesting lessons concerning the kingdom of God: The tree making the bitter waters sweet, the twelve wells and seventy palm trees of Elim, the giving of manna in the wilderness of Sin, the striking of the Rock at Rephidim, the coming of Amalek, the appointment of lesser judges (governmental structure) after the arrival of Jethro, and the arrival at Sinai and preparations to receive the Law and Covenant.

Note3: Jesus was with his disciples forty days after his Passover. Israel wandered in Sinai for forty years after their Passover.

Note4: It is likely that when Jesus was baptised by John, he fulfilled much of the typology of the Day of Atonement. This by the way leads into the question of whether Jesus died in the middle of the seventieth week of Daniel, or at the end of the seventieth week. I am starting to see that Jesus did not die in the midst of the seventieth week, but that he was baptised in the midst of the seventieth week, thus (from God's perspective) ending all sacrifice and offering for sin, then completing the seventieth week with his death. I admit this is something I am not certain about, and may be a dead end rabbit trail, but I am currently looking into this to see where it goes.

[Michael The Disciple]

Sister Alvear,


I will start here.

Rev. 14:1-5

1And I looked , and, lo , a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth . These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

They stand on Mt. Zion. The book of Revelation being highly symbolic is obviously not so easy to understand. Is this on Earth or in Heaven? Is the Church ever considered as Mt. Zion?

Heb. 12:22-24

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the livingGod, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are writtenin heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect , 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The writer (probably Paul) tells us the Church is Mt. Zion. Now I believe the nation of Israel is still beloved for the Fathers sake we know the Church is primarily Gods Israel.

Gal. 6:15-16

15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God

The Church is techically the Israel of God. The 144000 are standing on Mt. Zion the Church. Yes I know there is another part of this teaching to consider but for the moment I am focusing on this portion.

They are singing before the Throne. Does this necessarily have to be happening Heaven?

Note that Elijah while standing here on Earth told Obidiah he was standing before God.

1 Kings 18:15

15 And Elijah said , As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand , I will surely shew myself unto him to day.

So in the spirit we can be standing before God while we are actually on Earth. I believe this is the situation here. They sing a song no other persons can sing because they have had a unique experience in Christ.

They are said to be virgins. No doubt in the spiritual sense since we are told elsewhere the marriage bed is honorable. These are end time overcomers. They have not been defiled by the teachings and practices of the modern Babylonian Churches.

They are standing with Jesus the Lamb. They are his disciples not those of men. They have forsaken all for his sake. They are the FIRSTFRUITS to God. They are the first group of people since the beginning of the Church to walk without lie and having no guile in them. They are perfect in Christ. The Lamb of God sees no fault in them.

This has always been Gods intent for his people but its clear that few through history have attained this. God has reserved a time that he will insure by his grace that a good number of people will get there and will be examples to the wider Church at large.

Through the maze of false teaching in the end times light will shine through as faithful Ministers will see more and more their calling is to present every man perfect in Christ.

Colossians 1:28-29

28Whom we preach , warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:29 Whereunto I also labor , striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily .

Any Ministry not devoted to this goal walks without understanding. So out of the faithful few who point the souls of men in that direction will come forth this firstfruits end time group of 144,000. They are I believe the same group of people we find in the vision of the Woman and the Manchild of Rev. 12.

[Michael The Disciple]

Who is the Manchild of Rev.12? What is his role in end times? The 144,000

Rev 12:1-5

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon
her head a crown of twelve stars:

The woman is the New Testament Church. She is clothed with the sun.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON CHRIST. Gal. 3:27

The moon is under her feet.

And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS. Eph. 2:6

On her head is a crown of 12 stars.
This speaks of the mind of the Apostles.
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship breaking of bread and prayers. Acts 2:42

2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth and pained to be delivered.

It is what is in her that is giving her pain.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The dragon is satan and the ten horns are 10 endtime nations.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet, but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. Rev. 18:12

His tail represents the false teaching of the end time.

15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed. Isaiah 9:15-16

His tail (doctrine) draws a third of the stars of heaven and casts them to the earth.

The stars of heaven speaks of the saints who dwell in heavenly places in Christ. Multitudes are deceived and fall from their heavenly position IN CHRIST. They return to earthly affections and desires.

The devil stands before the woman to destroy the fruit of her womb. Why does he focus his attack on the CHILD?

5. And she brought forth a MAN CHILD, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God
and to his throne.

When we see who the child is we will understand why the enemy wants it destroyed!

And he that OVERCOMETH and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron: Rev. 2:26-27

The Manchild represents end time overcomers! Their purpose will change the direction of the Church. God says he will come for a glorious church.

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, wrinkle, or any such thing: but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27

How do we get from where we are today to the goal God has set for his people? That's what the Man Child is all about.

[Esaias]

Sister Alvear,


I will start here.

Rev. 14:1-5

1And I looked , and, lo , a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth . These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

They stand on Mt. Zion. The book of Revelation being highly symbolic is obviously not so easy to understand. Is this on Earth or in Heaven? Is the Church ever considered as Mt. Zion?

Heb. 12:22-24

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the livingGod, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are writtenin heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect , 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The writer (probably Paul) tells us the Church is Mt. Zion. Now I believe the nation of Israel is still beloved for the Fathers sake we know the Church is primarily Gods Israel.

Gal. 6:15-16

15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God

The Church is techically the Israel of God. The 144000 are standing on Mt. Zion the Church. Yes I know there is another part of this teaching to consider but for the moment I am focusing on this portion.

They are singing before the Throne. Does this necessarily have to be happening Heaven?

Note that Elijah while standing here on Earth told Obidiah he was standing before God.

1 Kings 18:15

15 And Elijah said , As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand , I will surely shew myself unto him to day.

So in the spirit we can be standing before God while we are actually on Earth. I believe this is the situation here. They sing a song no other persons can sing because they have had a unique experience in Christ.

They are said to be virgins. No doubt in the spiritual sense since we are told elsewhere the marriage bed is honorable. These are end time overcomers. They have not been defiled by the teachings and practices of the modern Babylonian Churches.

They are standing with Jesus the Lamb. They are his disciples not those of men. They have forsaken all for his sake. They are the FIRSTFRUITS to God. They are the first group of people since the beginning of the Church to walk without lie and having no guile in them. They are perfect in Christ. The Lamb of God sees no fault in them.

This has always been Gods intent for his people but its clear that few through history have attained this. God has reserved a time that he will insure by his grace that a good number of people will get there and will be examples to the wider Church at large.

Through the maze of false teaching in the end times light will shine through as faithful Ministers will see more and more their calling is to present every man perfect in Christ.

Colossians 1:28-29

28Whom we preach , warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:29 Whereunto I also labor , striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily .

Any Ministry not devoted to this goal walks without understanding. So out of the faithful few who point the souls of men in that direction will come forth this firstfruits end time group of 144,000. They are I believe the same group of people we find in the vision of the Woman and the Manchild of Rev. 12.

Pure insanity.

First fruits coming at the end (backwards). You describe these speshul believers in ways the Bible describes THE CHURCH. Two groups of people the woman and the man child? That woman is 12 tribed Israel, the man child is JESUS. You speak as if there are no ministers labouring to present everyone perfect, at this time. But we all have to wait for some mystical future end times prophecies to come to pass. So, no hope for the present. Like all futurists, you push overcoming off into the future, and expect some great massive revival where everybody suddenly comes around to your way of thinking. This is a recipe for disaster, as history has amply proven over and over again.

I'm sorry, Mike, but you don't have a consistent frame of reference within which to understand any of these things. Therefore you're all over the place, and ultimately, the big take away from your teaching is "Everybody and Everything Sucks, but someday in the future somebody will finally get it right."

First time in history the church is going to actually be the church, and it's still somewhere over the rainbow? Mike, Jesus wrote seven letters to seven churches, two had no rebuke from Him whatsoever. THAT WAS IN THE FIRST CENTURY. But according to you, the church has been a failure from day 1, and will be, until TBN invites you to address the multitudes and git er done? Or some new "big movement" marches onto the scene blaring Misty Edwards from the speakers?

Sorry, but eschatology is really not your area of expertise. You should go back to Genesis, wipe the slate clean, start with a blank chalkboard, and study prophecy, BEGINNING AT MOSES. Then you will have a framework within which to work, and won't be blown about by all this CHARISMATIC, EVANGELICAL ESCHATOLOGICAL CONFUSION.

[Michael The Disciple]

The Manchild-144,000-Firstfruits

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Rev. 12:5

Right now there is a small group of end time disciples that take God seriously. They are being trained and disciplined by his word and Spirit. They are "hidden away" in their mothers womb. Their mother is the Heavenly Jerusalem, the Church.

Gal. 4:25-26

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This insures they will not be carried away in pride and move ahead of the plan of God. It looks like to the church in general that they are a failure! Their preaching of JUDGEMENT and PERFECTION gives grief and pain to the Church in general. They meet in small home churches and are called "cultists".

God sees it another way! The church in general has lost its way long ago. It seems that unity and full stature is just a visionaries dream! But wait! God is working his "quick work".

Caught up to the throne of God? This is not referring to what we call the rapture! I believe there will be a literal coming of Jesus to gather his saints in the clouds. Yes. But this is not that. The catching up of the Man Child is on the same spiritual level as these other two notable experiences in scripture.

2 Cor. 12:2

I knew a man In Christ above 14 years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one CAUGHT UP to the third heaven.

Rev 4:1-2

After this I looked and behold a door was in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said, COME UP HITHER and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the Spirit: and behold a throne was set in heaven and one sat on the throne.

Here we have two men, leaders of Gods people taken up to the throne. After Gods purpose in bringing them there is fulfilled he then sent them BACK! Was it literal or "in the spirit"? John said he was in the Spirit. Paul said he could not tell. Nonetheless the experience was so real to both of them they mentioned it in their writings!

When the time is right, when God has brought the end time overcomers to the place he can use them they WILL RECEIVE A LIKE EXPERIENCE! They will be caught up to God. They will receive end time instruction. Their doctrine will be the doctrine of heaven and they will be given a "rod of iron" to back it up with!

When they"return" they have a command to FEED the people of God. The devil has chased them to the wilderness. But God already had a plan for their deliverance!

Rev 12:6

And the woman fled into the wilderness where she hath a place prepared of God THAT THEY SHOULD FEED HER THERE a thousand two hundred and three score days.

The question is: Who are the THEY who shall feed her?

They are those who UNDERSTAND. Those who have been in training for this very thing. Now their ministry is finally released! Gods power backs them up as he backed up his servant Moses in the wilderness.

And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt
by flatteries: but the people that do know their God SHALL BE STRONG AND DO EXPLOITS! Dan. 11:32

What exploits might we expect? How about multiplying food?
Healing the sick? Blinding the eyes of those who seek to destroy Gods people?

And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND among the people shall INSTRUCT MANY: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil many days. Dan. 11:33

It will be the greatest time of BIBLE FEASTING in history!

Christians who love Yeshua but have not understood his word will be amazed as the great truths of Christ are revealed!
There will yet be a people who will come to the FULLNESS OF THE STATURE OF CHRIST!

Martyrs? Yes! But they will rejoice that they are worthy to die for his name! Like Stephen they shall be given "dying grace".

Now when they shall fall, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan. 11:34

Even in a great time of restoration not all will heed the message. As when Israel came out of Egypt, Gods people were fed and led supernaturally but many still fell into murmuring, complaining and sin and were cut off from Gods grace.

There it is friends. Both the bitter and the sweet! Exciting and dangerous times are ahead. Question is where will you stand in that day? Where are you standing TODAY? If one cannot serve God in the green tree what will happen in the dry!

Now is the time to crucify flesh. Now is the time to yield your members as instruments of righteousness unto holiness. God is looking for a few good men and women to labor with him in that day.

[Michael The Disciple]

Sister Alvear,

These have been my thoughts on the firstfruits. I simply believe in the end time before the great harvest there will be a group of "firstfruits" appear in the Church in general. Those that are the "first ripe" before Christs coming.

They are forerunners of what the Church in general will become.

Peace and love.

[Michael The Disciple]

You speak as if there are no ministers labouring to present everyone perfect, at this time. But we all have to wait for some mystical future end times prophecies to come to pass. So, no hope for the present. Like all futurists, you push overcoming off into the future, and expect some great massive revival where everybody suddenly comes around to your way of thinking. This is a recipe for disaster, as history has amply proven over and over again.

On the contrary there are probably more ministers teaching perfection now than anytime since the first few centuries. Simply because there are more ministers now than there were then. So yes I believe there are SOME preaching perfection. This may or may not be the generation Jesus comes.

You above anyone on the forum know that I have NEVER taught to put off perfection to some later time. I have taught Matt. 5:48 consistently since I arrived at this forum.

As to who they actually ARE that preach perfection it would be hard to find them.

In the last few months I have heard at least SIX Apostolic preachers say God does NOT expect his people to be perfect.

I could not name one Apostolic preacher right now who teaches "Be ye perfect" Matt 5:48.

Except yourself if that is indeed your belief still.

So yes I'm sure there are a number of them out there but judging from my own experience I think they would be VERY hard to find.

[Evang.Benincasa]

"Everybody and Everything Sucks, but someday in the future somebody will finally get it right."

Sad how this is the dispensationalist mantra. Therefore SOME (not all) are hiding in caves, burrows, and scary but true, trailer parks. They don't attend any churches because conveniently for them, these churches aren't perfect enough, or have the truth (mainly their truth), the ministers are false teachers, and couldn't possibly have the Holy Ghost. Or the minister might have the Holy Ghost, but just won't listen to them if they were to go and attend that church. Oh, but actually the minister has welcomed them in, and even pulled up a chair to listen, but was only met with a barrage of twisted scriptures which made no sense. Especially to the one trying to convey all this to the pastor, or elders. When the minister then tells or informs them that they don't see it their way, they stomp off to the internet. To tell those who would listen that they tried to present the truth, but were met with a bad spirit. Or that the pastor was a dictator, who refuses to see the anointing on the messenger from the Internet.

Someday there will be a perfect bride in the future? It isn't here now? Are these messengers part of this bride? Didn't I ask you Mike if you are the one with perfect understanding of this truth? Then logically we are all to go where you are at and sit under your ministry. But if you don't understand what you're saying how can you teach us?

[Evang.Benincasa]

On the contrary there are probably more ministers teaching perfection now than anytime since the first few centuries. Simply because there are more ministers now than there were then. So yes I believe there are SOME preaching perfection. This may or may not be the generation Jesus comes.

You above anyone on the forum know that I have NEVER taught to put off perfection to some later time. I have taught Matt. 5:48 consistently since I arrived at this forum.

As to who they actually ARE that preach perfection it would be hard to find them.

In the last few months I have heard at least SIX Apostolic preachers say God does NOT expect his people to be perfect.

I could not name one Apostolic preacher right now who teaches "Be ye perfect" Matt 5:48.

Except yourself if that is indeed your belief STILL.


Mike, passive aggressive behavior is mature perfection? :laffatu



So yes I'm sure there are a number of them out there but judging from my own experience I think they would be VERY hard to find.

Says the guy who lives behind his computer screen. Mike I was taught this since day one in the Apostolic church. But since you haven't gotten around much since the 80s we can't really depend on what you claim i out there.

[Evang.Benincasa]

In the last few months I have heard at least SIX Apostolic preachers say God does NOT expect his people to be perfect.


Did you attend six different churches and heard that? Or did you visit six different churches and hear this? Mike, do you even know what Jesus meant by perfect? The Greek word means finished, complete. My wife used the word on my daughters when they were litttle, she would tell them τέλειος!!!!!! Which like any mother, means ENOUGH!!!!

It is maturity. People come into the church and are babes, clueless, innocent of right and wrongs within the Way. They are to be taught by the elders to become elders, and work within the body as a functioning member of the body. Some group in the future who will be perfect, bro, that has been happening for 2,000 years. If you didn't get the memo, then dig this. 9/11 happened 16 years ago. 16, not 2,000. There are more stories, fables, insanity concerning that day in our recent history, that boggles the mind. So, you don't have a Oneness group to point to in the past? I do, it is in the pages of the Bible, the New Testament. That's not good enough for you? Then too bad, stay in your chair behind your computer screen and fellowship all four members of your YouTubes channel. :heeheehee

[Esaias]

"I could not name one Apostolic preacher right now who teaches "Be ye perfect" Matt 5:48.

Except yourself if that is indeed your belief STILL."

What? Are you kidding me? I can't name one apostolic preacher that I know (personally) who DOESNT preach "be ye perfect" according to Matthew 5:48. I'm sure there are many who teach "we will never stop sinning this side of heaven" but most of them are on AFF or Farcebook so...

As for me, the VERY FIRST TIME I stood in a pulpit I preached entire sanctification by faith and the overcoming victory by faith (among several other things) and after 20 some odd years or so I feel I haven't even gotten fully warmed up yet, only barely scratching the service. So, yes, I still believe it, and I still preach it, and will continue to do until my race is done.

[Sister Alvear]

What does each feast represent in your opinion?

[Evang.Benincasa]

What does each feast represent in your opinion?

You mean what each feast meant in Apostolic movement in 1974? Or 1982? Or now?

[Esaias]

What does each feast represent in your opinion?

Each Feast has four layers of meaning: historical, Christological, experiential, and eschatological.

Historical: Each Feast either commemorates an event in Israel's history, or (in the case of Trumpets and Atonement) serves an historical circumstance or purpose.

Christological: Each Feast was fulfilled by Christ in His earthly ministry, life, death, and resurrection. Each Feast signifies some aspect of His Work.

Experiential: Each Feast typifies or illustrates some aspect of the Christian experience, both individually and corporately. They signify or illustrate different aspects of the Work of Christ in the life of the believer.

Eschatological: Each Feast signifies certain truths concerning God's Divine Plan. They have prophetic significance concerning Christ's first coming, His church and it's mission, and the end of all things.

The Feasts serve as a template or outline of Israel's history, Christ's mission, the life of the believer, and Bible prophecy.

[Esaias]

Each Feast has four layers of meaning: historical, Christological, experiential, and eschatological.

Historical: Each Feast either commemorates an event in Israel's history, or (in the case of Trumpets and Atonement) serves an historical circumstance or purpose.

Christological: Each Feast was fulfilled by Christ in His earthly ministry, life, death, and resurrection. Each Feast signifies some aspect of His Work.

Experiential: Each Feast typifies or illustrates some aspect of the Christian experience, both individually and corporately. They signify or illustrate different aspects of the Work of Christ in the life of the believer.

Eschatological: Each Feast signifies certain truths concerning God's Divine Plan. They have prophetic significance concerning Christ's first coming, His church and it's mission, and the end of all things.

The Feasts serve as a template or outline of Israel's history, Christ's mission, the life of the believer, and Bible prophecy.

And there is so much packed away in these things I'm not sure a thread, much less a post, could do it justice. For instance, the Feast of Unleavened Bread contains many correspondences to Israel's history from the Exodus to the bitter waters of Mara. And it also foreshadows the events not only of Calvary but the whole first week after His death.

Further, it is connected to Pentecost because there is the counting of the 50 days to the Feast of First Fruits (Pentecost), and there are correspondences to Israel journeying to Sinai and receiving the Law. And, these things foreshadow the events from Christ's resurrection up to the Upper Room in Acts 2.

There is so much in these Feasts it's hard to know where to even start. But the four-fold approach I described above (the four layers or four aspects of the Feasts) is a good starting point, I think, in studying them.

[Esaias]

Psalm 68 connects with the Exodus. Verse 1 ("Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered") connects with Moses saying "Let God arise" etc whenever the cloudy pillar moved and the camp followed.

Verse 6 speaks of God delivering from bondage, as well of the rebellious being condemned to the wilderness.

Verses 7 and 8 are clear references to the Exodus and to Sinai.

Verse 11 speaks of God giving his Word, and of it being "published".

Verses 15-16 contain a reference to Mt. Zion (this is important, hang on a moment...)

Verse 17 refers to Sinai.

Verse 18 then says " thou ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive. Thou hast received gifts for men, even for the rebellious, that the LORD God might dwell among them."

Now, later Jewish rabbinic speculation assumed this referred to Moses ascending up on Sinai and receiving the Law, as well as the additional sacrificial rites which were imposed to the people's rebellion (golden calf, etc.).

BUT Paul references this verse in Ephesians 4, applies it to Christ ascending into heaven and, through the gift of the Holy Ghost giving various gifts or charisms to the church (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors/teachers), which in turn is referenced later in the chapter to the operation of the Spirit through each member of the Body.

Therefore, we see that Pentecost is the New Sinai experience, where Christ the mediator ascends on high, gives the Spirit to men thus making it possible for God to dwell among the people. As God spoke from heaven at Sinai, He spoke from heaven in the upper room (via the disciples' speaking in tongues). The rebellious (those convicted by Peter's preaching) were given gifts as well (3000 of them got added to the church). Pentecost represents the new covenant Sinai, or, to be more specific, MOUNT ZION (see Hebrews "we have come to Zion" etc) the typological picture of the Davidic tabernacle, in opposition to Sinai's Mosaic tabernacle.

So the association of Pentecost with Sinai only makes sense in the context of Acts 2, in a Christian, new covenant context.

[Esaias]

I, too, now see a great revelation: you, generally speaking, on most subjects, have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't think doctrine and theology is your forte, brother. Just saying.

I want to apologise to brother Michael for this. Looking back it comes across as far harsher than I intended. I do believe you have a lot to share with the rest of the body.

Although I still think your ideas concerning firstfruits, the man child, and Bible prophecy are way off. :)

[Evang.Benincasa]

I want to apologise to brother Michael for this. Looking back it comes across as far harsher than I intended. I do believe you have a lot to share with the rest of the body.

Although I still think your ideas concerning firstfruits, the man child, and Bible prophecy are way off. :)

:highfive

[Michael The Disciple]

Dom

Mike, do you even know what Jesus meant by perfect? The Greek word means finished, complete. My wife used the word on my daughters when they were litttle, she would tell them τέλειος!!!!!! Which like any mother, means ENOUGH!!!!

Matt 5:48 Jesus Christ said:

Be ye therefore perfect, EVEN AS your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Explain how the Father in Heaven is "finished". Explain how he is "complete".

Dom

So, you don't have a Oneness group to point to in the past? I do, it is in the pages of the Bible, the New Testament.

Oh I point to that same one. That is certainly the closest we have to look at historically. However you are a well studied man and if there were a large "Apostolic group" defined by Acts 2:38 and Oneness anywhere in historical records you like myself would know about it and present it here. Instead you present hot air.

But I would go farther than Acts 2:38 when it comes to the Church Jesus is coming back for. It must be glorious, without spot, wrinkle or blemish! It would have pure foundation doctrine otherwise it could never gotten this far.

They estimate some 20 million people in the world are Oneness. Thats a lot. If we went back historically lets say 104 years when Frank Ewart started preaching the full revelation of it he knew of NO CHURCHES that taught it. He believed he was the first one in centuries.

Remember my doctrine is NOT that there was no Apostolic Church in the world all that time. Just that there certainly have not been a great multitude over the centuries that would make up the one in Revelation 7:9-14

But I understand how that you as a teacher of the doctrine that Jesus came and resurrected the dead saints and raptured the living in 70ad would oppose what I am saying.

[Michael The Disciple]

I want to apologise to brother Michael for this. Looking back it comes across as far harsher than I intended. I do believe you have a lot to share with the rest of the body.

Although I still think your ideas concerning firstfruits, the man child, and Bible prophecy are way off. :)

Peace and love:highfive

[Evang.Benincasa]

Dom



Matt 5:48 Jesus Christ said:

Be ye therefore perfect, EVEN AS your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Explain how the Father in Heaven is "finished". Explain how he is "complete".



Oh I point to that same one. That is certainly the closest we have to look at historically. However you are a well studied man and if there were a large "Apostolic group" defined by Acts 2:38 and Oneness anywhere in historical records you like myself would know about it and present it here. Instead you present hot air.

But I would go farther than Acts 2:38 when it comes to the Church Jesus is coming back for. It must be glorious, without spot, wrinkle or blemish! It would have pure foundation doctrine otherwise it could never gotten this far.

They estimate some 20 million people in the world are Oneness. Thats a lot. If we went back historically lets say 104 years when Frank Ewart started preaching the full revelation of it he knew of NO CHURCHES that taught it. He believed he was the first one in centuries.

Remember my doctrine is NOT that there was no Apostolic Church in the world all that time. Just that there certainly have not been a great multitude over the centuries that would make up the one in Revelation 7:9-14

But I understand how that you as a teacher of the doctrine that Jesus came and resurrected the dead saints and raptured the living in 70ad would oppose what I am saying.

I don't believe in a rapture in 70 A.D. That is your passive aggressive behavior. I'm opposed to what you are saying because you stink at math, and that a multitude that CANNOT be numbered is an infinite number, last time I checked. Like Abraham having offspring that would be so INFINITE they would outnumber the grains of sand on the seashore, and the stars within all the universe. Preterism has zero to do with my view on the uncountable multitude. Because I believed that it was infinite multitude because the New Testament in ENGLISH says "a great multitude, which NO MAN could number. That my boy, has zero to do with whether or not someone is a Preterist, Dispensationalist, or a full fledge eschatologist whack job. I know guys like you really hate using the Bible to interpret the Bible. Because then it would be harder to coax house wives from Fort Lauderdale up to your home for sacred name baptism in the jacuzzi. But Revelation is talking about Abraham's promise, fulfilled through CHRIST (Genesis 17:2, Galatians 3:8) Genesis 13:16, Genesis 16:10. Abraham didn't see his seed become more numerous that granules of dust!!! The only way it could happen was through JESUS CHRIST's lineage contained in the Church, the Bride. Oh, not everyone pastor and saint measures up to your standard? Well, not everything that says Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of God. But dig this, worry about your own hide, sweep around your own porch. Because while everyone is entering in, you might find yourself thrust out.

As far as τέλειος is concenred we are to be complete, finised, enough in FULL AGE MATURITY as THE FATHER.

You have children?

Then you know that you are more a father today then when you and your wife first started out. Eldership, fatherhood, aged, mature, that is what τέλειος in the New Tesatment is trying to relay.

That is what the GREEK speaking Jesus was trying to say to His Greek, Aramaic speaking Judean audience.

[Michael The Disciple]

You dont believe in a 70ad rapture?

Preterist.org

“Preterist” means past in fulfillment, and “Futurist” means future in fulfillment. Preterist basically means the opposite of Futurist. Futurists believe most end-time prophecies (especially the big three events — the Second Coming, Resurrection, and Judgment) are yet to be fulfilled. Preterists believe that most or all of Bible Prophecy (especially the big three events) has already been fulfilled in Christ and the on-going expansion of His Eternal Kingdom. Many Futurists do not really believe that Christ has been successful in fully establishing His Kingdom. They think it was indefinitely postponed when the Jews rejected and crucified Jesus.

Prets believe the resurrection, second coming, and judgement have ALREADY HAPPENED.

So sure they would not believe in a futurist understanding of Revelation or ANY prophetic teaching.

So are you teaching ANOTHER FORM of preterism than the norm? You ARE a full preterist right?

[Evang.Benincasa]

You dont believe in a 70ad rapture?

Preterist.org



Prets believe the resurrection, second coming, and judgement have ALREADY HAPPENED.

So sure they would not believe in a futurist understanding of Revelation or ANY prophetic teaching.

So are you teaching ANOTHER FORM of preterism than the norm? You ARE a full preterist right?

Even when I was Post Trib I didn't believe in a rapture, because the New Testament ἁρπάζω is stilled use in modern Greek. It means to grab. Not float away in an upward direction. Like, in a moment in a tinkling of an eye? To say to be snatched out of sleep? Like we shall not all sleep?

Mike, you believe in another form of eschatology, called modified dispensationalism. Where you have a special group (somewhat like the Watchtower chosen ones) but instead of having them in 1914, you have it all in some far off future. They are overcomers, they endure until the end, because they will be in the great tribulation, not us. Why not us? Because as you said, there are NO churches which can be considered the bride, due to they not measuring up to "the stature of Christ"

Yes, Mike, you believe in another form of eschatology.

[Michael The Disciple]

As far as τέλειος is concenred we are to be complete, finised, enough in FULL AGE MATURITY as THE FATHER.

You have children?

Then you know that you are more a father today then when you and your wife first started out. Eldership, fatherhood, aged, mature, that is what τέλειος in the New Tesatment is trying to relay.

That is what the GREEK speaking Jesus was trying to say to His Greek, Aramaic speaking Judean audience.

So are you saying "perfect" does not mean perfect in holiness? It simply means "mature"?

It actually depends on context.

Watch this.

Col. 4:12

12Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Saints are to be PERFECT......and complete!

In what way?

In all the will of God!

In other words holiness! A life of doing Gods will is a life of holiness.

2 Cor. 7:1

1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

All Christians works must be perfect or their names will be blotted out of the book of life.

Rev 3:1-5

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

So no I have not heard much preaching about this lately. Or in the past 44 years.

This would not work well with your once saved always saved theology though.

And yet by the time the Lord comes a great multitude (relatively speaking) will be walking in it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

You dont believe in a 70ad rapture?



Passive aggressive behavior is part of your perfection doctrine?

Mike, come to think of it, I was no rapture post trib way back when. How'd you miss that one? Oh, because all you give a care about is two lousy words "POST" and "TRIB"

Sad huh?

Good grief.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So are you saying "perfect" does not mean perfect in holiness? It simply means "mature"?

It actually depends on context.

Watch this.

Col. 4:12

12Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Here is another translation.

Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured.

Mike, you are so busy trying to make up words in Hebrew, you miss the meanings within your ENGLISH translation of a Greek document.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So are you saying "perfect" does not mean perfect in holiness? It simply means "mature"?

It actually depends on context.

Watch this.

Col. 4:12

12Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Saints are to be PERFECT......and complete!

In what way?

In all the will of God!

In other words holiness! A life of doing Gods will is a life of holiness.

2 Cor. 7:1

1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

All Christians works must be perfect or their names will be blotted out of the book of life.

Rev 3:1-5

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

So no I have not heard much preaching about this lately. Or in the past 44 years.

This would not work well with your once saved always saved theology though.

And yet by the time the Lord comes a great multitude (relatively speaking) will be walking in it.

Mike, do you believe that you are capable of doing this in your own human discipline? Interesting how you misquote Revelation by saying "great multitude?"

Mike, it is a GREAT MULTITUDE WHICH NO MAN CAN COUNT ITS NUMBER!

You got that? Eschatology has nothing to do with that Mike.

The great multitude is like the dust of the earth. Bible, Mike look at an ENGLISH Bible. :heeheehee

[Michael The Disciple]

Here is another translation.

Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured.

Mike, you are so busy trying to make up words in Hebrew, you miss the meanings within your ENGLISH translation of a Greek document.

This in no way refutes what I said. If one is firm in ALL THE WILL OF GOD...he will also be a mature Christian. His works will be perfect before God.

I'm pretty sure most translations teach Christians are supposed to consistently overcome sin.

[Evang.Benincasa]

2 Cor. 7:1

1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

All Christians works must be perfect or their names will be blotted out of the book of life.


Mike, go back and read Esaias' post to you. This sounds like salvation by works, not works because of salvation. Big difference there Hoss, big difference.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mike, do you believe that you are capable of doing this in your own human discipline?

I never have. If I had you would probably have posted it by now.

No I teach exactly what Paul taught in Romans 8:13

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It is not possible without the Spirit of God.

But WITH the Spirit of God not only is it possible it is REQUIRED if we want to live forever.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I never have. If I had you would probably have posted it by now.

No I teach exactly what Paul taught in Romans 8:13

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It is not possible without the Spirit of God.

But WITH the Spirit of God not only is it possible it is REQUIRED if we want to live forever.

Then why are you confused? If Paul was saying this 2,000 years ago then obviously people have been doing it. Therefore a plethora of individuals have been allowing the Holy Ghost to lead and teach, making them mature to the stature of Christ. Again, the great multitude, large multitude, is one that cannot be counted by any human being...ever!!!

[Michael The Disciple]

Then why are you confused? If Paul was saying this 2,000 years ago then obviously people have been doing it. Therefore a plethora of individuals have been allowing the Holy Ghost to lead and teach, making them mature to the stature of Christ. Again, the great multitude, large multitude, is one that cannot be counted by any human being...ever!!!

Dom,

There is hardly a trickle of this kind of teaching going on at the moment. You yourself were just resisting it:highfive

But again I have not said NO ONE is perfect before God. My part in this discussion was to say there will YET BE.....by the time Jesus comes a great multitude living on the Earth who will be walking in this.

And that there will be forerunners or "firstfruits" that attain to it first.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Dom,

There is hardly a trickle of this kind of teaching going on at the moment. You yourself were just resisting it:highfive

Mike you are incorrect. I never resisted the teaching I just posted, because it was exactly what I found when I walked into an Apostolic Church. I also preached it, and preached it in other churches. This issue of you not finding Apostolic churches which believe in perfection "maturity" may be because you have locked yourself away since the 70s. Only allowing yourself to find "Apostolic Church" via the Internet and YouTubes.



But again I have not said NO ONE is perfect before God. My part in this discussion was to say there will YET BE.....by the time Jesus comes a great multitude living on the Earth who will be walking in this.

There is none so blind who will not see. Sorry, Bub, but your multitude isn't found in the Bible. Why? Because you have your own man made multitude. The one which fits neatly into your teaching. Alas, the one in the scripture is uncountable, no human being can count the group. Resiting? Oh, that is you oh bald n bearded. You refuse to allow the scripture to plainly says what it says.

Young's Literal Translation


After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, WHICH TO NUMBER NO ONE WAS ABLE, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands,

Now, didn't you post that people leave Apostolic Churches because they are told to shave? Baloney! You want to know why people get up and exit stage right. Because of people who when they read the verse leave things out. To suit their own religious agenda. Plain and simple. People come to church and are ready to do whatever, but give them the old Okey Doke with a Bible verse and out the door they will go. Beard my foot, multitude which can't be possibly numbered, is found on earth all at once? Hey Mike, Soylent Green is people. :heeheehee



And that there will be forerunners or "firstfruits" that attain to it first.

Mike! Know why first is FIRST? Because it comes before everything else?

People leave because of a clean shave and a shoeshine? But they all will come running when you tell them that firstfruits aren't actually the first gleaning of the harvest. They are after the entire harvest is done.

Eschatology is like LSD dropped right in the eyeballs.

Good God from Zion!!!!!

[1ofthechosen]

Mike, so we are waiting for a beard Revival, and post trib awakening, denoucing of immortal soul, and denouncing of Christmas and Easter before this bride comes to be? Umm sounds like pure speculation can you present scripture on these "philosophies" of yours?

I can't believe you say there is no church in these days. What that means is you've never seen the real thing, and that's scary. Because I use to feel that way before I knew the truth, and truly what it was Is I never seen the real thing. But that list above is truthfully the least of our worries...

[Michael The Disciple]

I can't believe you say there is no church in these days.

Thats because I never said it. If you were reading what I am saying you would know that.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mike, so we are waiting for a beard Revival, and post trib awakening, denoucing of immortal soul, and denouncing of Christmas and Easter before this bride comes to be? Umm sounds like pure speculation can you present scripture on these "philosophies" of yours?

There will be Churches. There will be individuals that are born of water and Spirit. To be overcomers is another thing. ULTIMATELY one must be an overcomer to be accepted at Christs coming.

There may be a relative few found in Churches to be overcomers. Rev. 3:1-5

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

In each generation those who overcome will be accepted by Christ. The rest will go to Gehenna fire.

At the end generation there will be a great multitude alive on Earth who will be overcomers.

Rev. 7:9-12

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 7:13

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The firstfruits are those who ripened, or matured before the rest.

Not that hard.

[1ofthechosen]

There will be Churches. There will be individuals that are born of water and Spirit. To be overcomers is another thing. ULTIMATELY one must be an overcomer to be accepted at Christs coming.

There are few found in Churches to be overcomers. Rev. 3:1-5

In each generation those who overcome will be accepted by Christ. The rest will go to Gehenna fire.

At the end generation there will be a great multitude alive on Earth who will be overcomers.

Rev. 7:9-12


Rev 7:13



The firstfruits are those who ripened, or matured before the rest.

Not that hard.


You believe in Dominion theology it sounds like to me. All that listening to IHOP is having a bad effect on you, you need to guard your gates.

[Michael The Disciple]

You believe in Dominion theology it sounds like to me. All that listening to IHOP is having a bad effect on you, you need to guard your gates.

One has to believe in DOMINION THEOLOGY to think there will be overcomers before Christ comes?

DOMINION THEOLOGY seems to be another word for Reconstructionists. Or Preterists.

I teach post trib rapture as does IHOP.

[Evang.Benincasa]

There will be Churches. There will be individuals that are born of water and Spirit. To be overcomers is another thing. ULTIMATELY one must be an overcomer to be accepted at Christs coming.

Mike, there have been overcomers for over 2,000 years. Agreed?



There may be a relative few found in Churches to be overcomers. Rev. 3:1-5

Narrow is the way and strait is the gate, agree?



4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

World English Bible


Matthew 7:14

How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.

Mike, Jesus explains that the way is hard to navigate, the entrance is so small that few will find it. You see, that is what is confusing about what you are presenting to us. All of a sudden Jesus' words concerning pearl of great price, hard to find entrances are passed aside by all of a sudden an endtime revival where at one time every living being is instantly converted. But the individuals aren't able to be counted, yet they are recorded in a book? You see the Bible has no contradictions, man takes Bible and through sloppy interpretations contradicts the Bible. Sardis is an actual place, and the writer of Revelation is speaking to an actual event. These people of Sardis are being instructed. Mistakenly some interpret the 7 churches as 'AGES" or dispensations or a devolution of the church. That isn't the case. The Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ isn't some crippled weak vehicle that needs a tow truck every epoch that passes. You believe that she is on her last cylinder and running on bald tireS? All I can say is sorry to hear that.



5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

In each generation those who overcome will be accepted by Christ. The rest will go to Gehenna fire.

Yes, and EACH GENERATION will have a number, that number is constantly added. Therefore it cannot be counted the same way you cannot count every spec of dust on the entire planet.



At the end generation there will be a great multitude alive on Earth who will be overcomers.

Rev. 7:9-12


Rev 7:13

The terminal generation, would therefore be able to be counted up to that point. Makes sense, correct? If no man can number it, mathematically it is a number far to large to calculate making it INFINITE.




The firstfruits are those who ripened, or matured before the rest.

Not that hard.

Not that hard? Mike, logically you have fruit for 2,000 years which never ripened, but died unripe. Your future group is the first to ripen? Seriously?

[1ofthechosen]

There will be Churches. There will be individuals that are born of water and Spirit. To be overcomers is another thing. ULTIMATELY one must be an overcomer to be accepted at Christs coming.

There may be a relative few found in Churches to be overcomers. Rev. 3:1-5

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

In each generation those who overcome will be accepted by Christ. The rest will go to Gehenna fire.

At the end generation there will be a great multitude alive on Earth who will be overcomers.

Rev. 7:9-12


Rev 7:13



The firstfruits are those who ripened, or matured before the rest.

Not that hard.

You ready for the real wrench to be thrown in this whole thing. Right now Currently is going on the greatest revival of souls that EVER has been in the history of the church. Now we may not see it happening, but the truth is the most wide spread world wide then it has ever been. Which means more overcomers, a number greater then ever before, and thats CURRENTLY! It may not seem that way on your dopler radar but thats just because you aren't seeing it in the right way. Mike, Jesus is going to work regardless of our personal biases, and feelings. Our cynicism doesn't stop anything Jesus has going, well only in so dealing with us, and being used in it, but never in the big picture.

[Amanah]

Each Feast has four layers of meaning: historical, Christological, experiential, and eschatological.

Historical: Each Feast either commemorates an event in Israel's history, or (in the case of Trumpets and Atonement) serves an historical circumstance or purpose.

Christological: Each Feast was fulfilled by Christ in His earthly ministry, life, death, and resurrection. Each Feast signifies some aspect of His Work.

Experiential: Each Feast typifies or illustrates some aspect of the Christian experience, both individually and corporately. They signify or illustrate different aspects of the Work of Christ in the life of the believer.

Eschatological: Each Feast signifies certain truths concerning God's Divine Plan. They have prophetic significance concerning Christ's first coming, His church and it's mission, and the end of all things.

The Feasts serve as a template or outline of Israel's history, Christ's mission, the life of the believer, and Bible prophecy.

great teaching Elder :thumbsup

[Tithesmeister]

Your thoughts appreciated...

Well Sister Alvear, since you asked so nicely, I will share my thoughts on the very interesting and sometimes misunderstood subject of firstfruits. Much of this has been covered some, some of it hasn't been covered at all. Maybe it will help to clarify some information that has been covered previously by other posters.

In the interest of organizing information that may have been provided already, the subject of firstfruits has two main facets. Another way of saying this is that there are two categories of firstfruits that are mentioned in the Bible. These two categories are divided neatly between the New and Old Testaments. I will call them . . .

Literal and Figurative

This post will deal with the literal meaning of the firstfruits as intended in the Bible, and more specifically the Old Testament. Literal actually means "what the written words mean". I will follow this post with a figurative meaning, which occurs in the New Testament. The firstfruits in the Old Testament are (IMO) a type of, or a foreshadowing of, the firstfruits of the New Testament.

Literal Firstfruits

Firstfruits were literally the first of a crop that were ripened for harvest. If you were growing tomatoes, it would be the first tomato that was ripe enough to pick. The term firrstfruits in the Old Testament often was used to refer to grain (usually wheat or barley) that was ready to harvest. It is also used to refer to the wine that was made from the first ripened grapes, or the oil that was pressed from the olives that ripened first. Wool from the first shearing of the sheep might be in the same category, although it is never to my knowledge referred to as firstfruits, but is used in the same context.

One way to better understand what firstfruits IS, is to understand what firstfruits IS NOT. There is some misinformation about firstfruits that is being taught from many pulpits. To fail to address the misinformation would be a failure to teach the whole truth (IMO). Many preachers have taught that tithes are firstfruits. This is not true. Tithes are not firstfruits, and neither are firstfruits tithes. Firstfruits were the first of a crop to be harvested, and tithes were usually separated at the end of the harvest. Another difference between tithes and firstfruits was the way they were given, and to whom they were given. Tithes (Levitical) were given to the Levites at the forty eight cities of tillage, and firstfruits were given to the priests at the "place where God caused His name to be", which was originally Shiloh, and was later Jerusalem.

Another distinguishing characteristic that shows the difference between tithes and firstfruits is the amounts of the respective offerings. While it is common knowledge that the tithe was 1/10 of the crops, flocks and herds, the firstfruits were a token amount, never a measured, exact, specified fraction, not a dry measure or liquid measure, but a loosely defined sample, that in one reference (see below) was to be carried in a basket.

Deut.26
[1] And it shall be, when thou art come in unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and possessest it, and dwellest therein;
[2] That thou shalt take of the first of all the fruit of the earth, which thou shalt bring of thy land that the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt put it in a basket, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name there.

Please take notice that the first fruits were to be "of the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee". Firstfruits, like tithes, were to be given from the promised land only, not from outside its borders.

Another thing that was not firstfruits was the firstborn of man and beast. It seems that it would be, it is similar in a way, but the Bible does not refer to first born as firstfruits. The first born of man and beast was actually a way that God commanded the Israelites to remember (or memorialize) the Passover when He spared the first born of man and beast if they applied the blood of the pass-over lamb to the door posts and header. As has been pointed out, the first-born of man was to be redeemed with money. (I find it interesting that God traded the first-born male children of Israel for the Levite males to serve in the tabernacle, and later the temple, as workers, musicians and priests, etc..) The first-born of beast, however, were not allowed to be redeemed unless they were unclean, in which case it was commanded that they be redeemed.

At the end of the day, the firstfruits were to be eaten by the priests, and their family. It was after all . . . food.

This is my thoughts on the literal firstfruits.

[Sister Alvear]

Thanks to all for the input.

[Tithesmeister]

Your thoughts appreciated...

As promised, I will now cover the figurative firstfruits that are written about in the New Testament.

The difference in the context of firstfruits in the Old Testament and the New could hardly be more definite. In the Old Testament the firstfruits were nearly without fail, physical. They were literal. They were produce that was physically grown, that you could hold in your hand, grapes that you could trample and olives that you could press oil from. They were real and they were to be physically eaten to provide sustenance for the priests and their families.

In the New Testament, the firstfruits are absolutely spiritual. There is no mention of firstfruits that can be eaten, there is nothing about crops, there is nothing about priests eating firstfruits. In the New Testament, firstfruits are Spiritual.

Jesus is referred to as the firstfruits of them that slept, the early church is said to have the firstfruits of the Spirit, and certain households who were first converted were spoken of as the firstfruits of they that brought them to Christ.

It is a dramatically different context than anything in the Old Testament, and it should not be ignored. The components of the tithes, the firsrtfruits, and the harvest, all having to do with physical sustenance in one form or another in the Old Testament, are suddenly about souls and the harvest of them in the New Testament. I will post just a few scriptures that illustrate this new reality from the New Testament.

The harvest of souls . . .

Matt.9
[37] Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
[38] Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest

In the passage above as well as several others, it is obvious that Jesus is referring to the harvest metaphorically as a harvest of souls. The parable about the wheat and the tares is another example. Altogether I found six passages of scripture in the New Testament that refer to the harvest as a harvest of souls. None that specifically refer to the harvest as a physical harvest of crops. I believe that there has to be significance in the fact that the harvest that was wheat and barley, olives and wine, etc. in the Old Testament, is suddenly souls in the New.

Likewise the firstfruits. Every mention of firstfruits in the Old Testament were of the kind that were edible. In the New Testament they are Spiritual. Here are some examples.

Rom.8
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Above Paul says that the early church was the firstfruits of the Spirit and below he says that Epaenatus is the firstfruits (first converts) of Achaia to Christ.

Rom.16
[5] Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.


1Cor.15
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Above Paul (once again) refers to Jesus as the firstfruits of the risen dead. Can there be any doubt that the saints who have died that will rise first in the rapture of His church, are the "harvest" that would follow the firstfruits that is the resurrection of our Lord?

There are other scriptures that support this doctrine of the harvest and firstfruits being souls. I think it is a typology that is often overlooked because people are too focused on the tithes and firstfruits being money, which the Bible never says nor even allows. Maybe we are seeing money when God wants us to see souls . . .

I don't know.

It's just my thoughts.

[1ofthechosen]

Part 1:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=300946480737999&id=197304607690561

Part 2:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=600598117025852&id=197304607690561

I think this maybe more what your talking about. If not it was good teaching anyway. I listened to the first one, and a little of the second one but check it out!

[Louis]

I interpret "Firstfruits" as the "First" harvest of crop, the "First" portion of our increase as tithe, and the "First" who received Salvation.

Salvation was to the Jew "First", then the Samaritans, then Gentiles. Hence, the Jews that were Born Again on the day of Pentecost (which happens to be the celebration of the "Firstfruits") were the "Firstfruits" unto God and the Lamb in terms of Salvation. James 1:18, Rev 14:4.

Acts 2 was to the Jews (The Firstfruits)
Acts 8 was to the Samaritans
Acts 10 was to the Gentiles.

Same plan of salvation to all but the Jew were the first ones who received it.

Please let me know if this was of any help....