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View Full Version : Did The Second Coming Happen In 70AD?


Michael The Disciple
11-20-2018, 11:44 AM
This is a poll. Do you believe Jesus Christ's coming happened in 70ad? This includes that the resurrection of the dead occured at that time.

Or do you believe the second coming and the resurrection of the dead is still in the future?

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 11:46 AM
Where is the poll?

houston
11-20-2018, 11:49 AM
Isn’t it easier to ask
Are you a preterist?

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 11:49 AM
Hey Mike, since I don’t know anything, and I’m all messed up. Can you answer my questions? This will be a great opportunity for you to prove that nothing happened in 70 AD. That there is a future falling away of something from something. :)

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 11:50 AM
Isn’t it easier to ask
Are you a preterist?


No, because he is passive aggresive.

He must be a twister in a face to face :)

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 11:52 AM
The poll only has two items.
Mike that would mean that you agree with partial Preterism!

Awesome! :highfive

Michael The Disciple
11-20-2018, 11:54 AM
Do you see the poll?

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 11:56 AM
Hmmmm. Part of it is showing up for me but I don't see it here. I may have to try again.

It appeared.

But there is only two choices.

Which indicates the all futurism is a thumbs up win.

Pre, Mid, prewrath Partial Preterism and even pan are cool with you.

It is interesting how you drop everything to come after me. :heeheehee

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 11:59 AM
Do you see the poll?

Hey, I’m willing to learn. Since you have pounded the desk too here for so long saying the words post trib. Also ridiculing other posters if they don’t believe in post trib. Maybe you can answer my questions in this thread? By doing that you will at least show you are correct. What is the great falling away? What are they falling away from? What are they falling towards?

navygoat1998
11-20-2018, 12:09 PM
:popcorn2

Apostolic1ness
11-20-2018, 12:19 PM
If the tribulation was 70 AD then wouldnt the resurrection have to be post trib?

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 12:25 PM
The great apostasy is supposed to be the indicator of the end. What is it

Apostolic1ness
11-20-2018, 12:43 PM
The great apostasy is supposed to be the indicator of the end. What is it

I appears to me that Paul is speaking of a falling away of those who refuse to receive the love of the truth.

1ofthechosen
11-20-2018, 12:50 PM
If the tribulation was 70 AD then wouldnt the resurrection have to be post trib?

That would be absolutely. But considering Post Trib is called that because of some agreed on term from the Book of Revelation that they made up called "The Great Tribulation" it doesn't infer the same thing MTD is intending when he says it. So no it's. It semantics in that concept

Like Esaias there is no such thing as pre trib because we all shall go through many tribulations to enter into the kingdom of God, so it's impossible to be pre trib. But they too are standinf upon the same made up Theological term. Just because people came together and agreed upon this doesnt make it right, a ecumenical Eschatology view makes no sense. Well for the Apostolic movement it shouldnt, in my opinion. But hey maybe that is just a novel idea.. What do I know?

1ofthechosen
11-20-2018, 12:52 PM
I appears to me that Paul is speaking of a falling away of those who refuse to receive the love of the truth.

Can any body in their right mind actually think a greater falling away could come then what happened from the 1st Century to the early 1900's? If that be so the rapture is coming in another 1900 to 2000 years... Because it has to be greater then that one or it can't be what the NKJV calls "the great Apostasy."

Michael The Disciple
11-20-2018, 12:57 PM
So far nobody believes that Jesus came, the resurrection happened and the saints were caught up to meet the Lord in 70 ad.

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 01:07 PM
I appears to me that Paul is speaking of a falling away of those who refuse to receive the love of the truth.

Please explain.

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 01:22 PM
So far nobody believes that Jesus came, the resurrection happened and the saints were caught up to meet the Lord in 70 ad.

Saints caught up? I don’t believe that happened.

Mike, with your Hebrew language skills do you also speak Latin? :)

Mike I believe you only use one verse to prove post trib. Other than that you are the same as any Dispensationalist Pre Trib. I may be wrong, but you are tighter than a clam to teach me. What do I believe Mike? This thread was started for me and me alone. No need for a poll, you were only looking for one guy. But, since I’m all jacked up in my eschatology. YOU won’t teach me? Why? Because I ask questions? Questions you won’t answer? What was the great apostasy? It was the prime indicator. If it was those who left their first love then that happen in the first century to a Diaspora church in Asia Minor? Educate me.

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 01:45 PM
So far nobody believes that Jesus came, the resurrection happened and the saints were caught up to meet the Lord in 70 ad.

Mike, I looked at this again. Are you under the impression that Preterism, is what you supposedly believe just thrown in the past? Because you keep trying to say they believe that the church was removed in 70 AD? Am I understanding you correctly? Do you believe in a rapture and a resurrection? Or a rapture and two resurrections? One for the just, and another for the unjust who are resurrected at the very end?

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 01:47 PM
Can any body in their right mind actually think a greater falling away could come then what happened from the 1st Century to the early 1900's? If that be so the rapture is coming in another 1900 to 2000 years... Because it has to be greater then that one or it can't be what the NKJV calls "the great Apostasy."

I see. ;)

Apostolic1ness
11-20-2018, 01:58 PM
Please explain.

2 Thessalonians 2 Paul is speaking to the church about the coming of the Lord. He says basically Jesus will not return until there is a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed. Vs 8 and the shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
So the man of sin the "Wicked" will be destroyed by the Lord at his coming.
along with them that were deceived by him and did not receive a love of the truth.

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 02:41 PM
2 Thessalonians 2 Paul is speaking to the church about the coming of the Lord. He says basically Jesus will not return until there is a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed. Vs 8 and the shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
So the man of sin the "Wicked" will be destroyed by the Lord at his coming.
along with them that were deceived by him and did not receive a love of the truth.

Agreed, because obviously that is what it plainly states. Now, this letter was written to a Diaspora church in Asia Minor. They are being warned (as they were warned sometime previously) that the strongest indicator of the "coming" was a great apostasy. When Paul makes mention of warning them before he is solidifying that this was something that would stop or shut down anyone from being deceived. Therefore the love of the Truth is a given, so we need to know what was the truth, and what was the change that happened to these individuals who were destroyed. The great falling away is Demas, Hymenaeus, Philetus, Diotrephes, Alexander the Coppersmith, all those who were in Asia turned their backs on Paul. Paul writes a scolding rebuke against false Apostles in 2nd Corinthians. Messengers of Satan, not sparing the flock. The Apostle wasn't warning a future generation about Emperor Constantine I, First Council of Nicaea, First Council of Constantinople, Council of Ephesus
and the Council of Chalcedon. Think of it? do the math, if we are talking about a progressive apostasy which gets worse and worse until some future end, then about now Christianity would be extinct. You and I would not be on this forum. Because the Truth would be decimated long ago. The return happening sometime around 300 A.D. That's just to be reasonable. The breath of His mouth? Receive ye the Holy Ghost when He breathed on them?
Brightness of (in Greek) His presence? Revelation? Which would destroy the man (community of Judaizers) who were teaching that circumcision was mandatory to salvation, plus keeping the Law of Moses? Jesus told them that the temple must come down in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Others taught that wasn't necessary, that the law would continue and that the Gentiles must become physical Judeans in the flesh. It almost destroyed the fledgling church and the Apostle was almost pressed out of measure despairing for his own life.

Michael The Disciple
11-20-2018, 03:08 PM
2 Thessalonians 2 Paul is speaking to the church about the coming of the Lord. He says basically Jesus will not return until there is a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed. Vs 8 and the shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
So the man of sin the "Wicked" will be destroyed by the Lord at his coming.
along with them that were deceived by him and did not receive a love of the truth.

Agreed:highfive

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 03:10 PM
Agreed:highfive


He posted the verse.

Michael The Disciple
11-20-2018, 03:15 PM
Dom

Saints caught up? I don’t believe that happened.

Ok, good.

So you and I both agree that this verse has not been fulfilled?

1 Thess 4:16-17

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So the resurrection happens, followed by a catching up of the saints to meet the Lord in the air?

So we're good?

Apostolic1ness
11-20-2018, 03:17 PM
Agreed, because obviously that is what it plainly states. Now, this letter was written to a Diaspora church in Asia Minor. They are being warned (as they were warned sometime previously) that the strongest indicator of the "coming" was a great apostasy. When Paul makes mention of warning them before he is solidifying that this was something that would stop or shut down anyone from being deceived. Therefore the love of the Truth is a given, so we need to know what was the truth, and what was the change that happened to these individuals who were destroyed. The great falling away is Demas, Hymenaeus, Philetus, Diotrephes, Alexander the Coppersmith, all those who were in Asia turned their backs on Paul. Paul writes a scolding rebuke against false Apostles in 2nd Corinthians. Messengers of Satan, not sparing the flock. The Apostle wasn't warning a future generation about Emperor Constantine I, First Council of Nicaea, First Council of Constantinople, Council of Ephesus
and the Council of Chalcedon. Think of it? do the math, if we are talking about a progressive apostasy which gets worse and worse until some future end, then about now Christianity would be extinct. You and I would not be on this forum. Because the Truth would be decimated long ago. The return happening sometime around 300 A.D. That's just to be reasonable. The breath of His mouth? Receive ye the Holy Ghost when He breathed on them?
Brightness of (in Greek) His presence? Revelation? Which would destroy the man (community of Judaizers) who were teaching that circumcision was mandatory to salvation, plus keeping the Law of Moses? Jesus told them that the temple must come down in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Others taught that wasn't necessary, that the law would continue and that the Gentiles must become physical Judeans in the flesh. It almost destroyed the fledgling church and the Apostle was almost pressed out of measure despairing for his own life.

I dont consider any of the councils and false Christian based religions to have been in the truth and do not think thats what Paul is talking about. How could they fall away if they were not ever in the truth? At the same time Demas forsook Paul there were others being saved all over known world. Surely Paul knew that. I dont think the falling away was centered around Paul. Paul did not say the man was a community of Judaizers although some may have fallen from the truth. The truth then is the truth now it is and was God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, the new birth message.
Im not sure about numbers but I would not be too hesitant to say there are many more people now who know the truth and have experienced the truth that have not a love for it and are falling away then in the first century.

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 03:23 PM
Ok, good.

So you and I both agree that this verse has not been fulfilled?

1 Thess 4:16-17

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Even when I was still post trib you didn't believe what I believe. I was non dispensational post trib. You didn't agree with who I believed Mystery Babylon to be. Also I was always True Israel of God, you don't believe that.


So the resurrection happens, followed by a catching up of the saints to meet the Lord in the air?

Mike where is the air? Also why didn't the writer use the word for heaven or sky?



So we're good?

No Mike, you and I are far from good.

You are a frustrated religious person who has found out in his retirement, he hasn't done anything. We aren't friends, we are brothers, I love you, but I don't like you. See the difference?

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 03:34 PM
I dont consider any of the councils and false Christian based religions to have been in the truth and do not think thats what Paul is talking about. How could they fall away if they were not ever in the truth?

I wholeheartedly agreed.


How could they fall away if they were not ever in the truth? At the same time Demas forsook Paul there were others being saved all over known world.

Yes, indeed, and what did Jesus say about that? This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.As you say it was bringing fruit all over the known world, Colossians 1:6. Paul said it was all over the world Colossians 1:23. Yet, he also gives a warning about not being moved from that truth. Paul tells the Romans and Diaspora Judeans of Rome Psalm 19:4, that it was fulfilled in their time Romans 10:18. Yet, I would like you to clarify something, you brought up that while Demas left Paul, there were still saints being saved. Are you saying that the great apostasy will mean a ceasing of salvation? If yes, how and why?



Surely Paul knew that. I dont think the falling away was centered around Paul. Paul did not say the man was a community of Judaizers although some may have fallen from the truth. The truth then is the truth now it is and was God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, the new birth message.
Im not sure about numbers but I would not be too hesitant to say there are many more people now who know the truth and have experienced the truth that have not a love for it and are falling away then in the first century.

There are more people now coming to the Truth? OK, so explain to me the great falling away? It seems a little contradicting. But, please explain.

Apostolic1ness
11-20-2018, 04:24 PM
EB thanks for the "gentle" discourse btw. I surely don't know everything.

I do not mean that salvation will stop during the falling away. I just think Paul was looking at a bigger picture than the events surrounding him.
To clarify the last statement concerning this generation I am saying there may be more falling out of truth in this generation vs the first century but at the same time many are being saved also.

Michael The Disciple
11-20-2018, 04:40 PM
Even when I was still post trib you didn't believe what I believe. I was non dispensational post trib. You didn't agree with who I believed Mystery Babylon to be. Also I was always True Israel of God, you don't believe that.

When we met I made sure to double check what you said about agreeing with me. You said nothing about "non dispensation" post trib. I assumed you were telling me we were in agreement.

So you also told me you believed in soul sleep and annihilation. You said you knew and preached for many Churches that taught this. I asked you then and will ask you here some 16 years later where are they?

Yea Im sure we disagree on Mystery Babylon. As to one Israel of God, I agree the Church is the true Israel.

But there is much to also disagree with you stemming from that topic.

I believe this also.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

This means something.

Mike where is the air? Also why didn't the writer use the word for heaven or sky?

Air is something that surrounds the Earth that men may breathe and live. It is in you, around you, and anywhere above the Earth. I dont know why Paul said "air" other than he was teaching us where we will meet the Lord when we are caught up.

No Mike, you and I are far from good.

You are a frustrated religious person who has found out in his retirement, he hasn't done anything. We aren't friends, we are brothers, I love you, but I don't like you. See the difference?

So here is what I said.

So the resurrection happens, followed by a catching up of the saints to meet the Lord in the air?

So we're good?

Ok so then you actually DISAGREE that the resurrection happens first then follwed by the catching up of the saints?

That is what I meant by "we're good".

Think about the bitterness you have poured out constantly toward myself and others Dom. And you dont understand why I have not responded to every single demand you have made? The more discussion the more strife and personal attacks.

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 05:36 PM
EB thanks for the "gentle" discourse btw. I surely don't know everything.

Apostolic1ness, the pleasure is all mine. I don't know everything. I'm learning right along with you.



I do not mean that salvation will stop during the falling away. I just think Paul was looking at a bigger picture than the events surrounding him.

Ok, then that's where we logically need to figure out how that works. One, it is specifically a primary indicator to the end. Unless this falling away happens there is no fear of any end. Remember the letters which were sent to these Diaspora churches were telling them that the coming of the Lord is near to them, at hand. This was obviously a concern because the temple was still standing, and folks back in Jerusalem were still continuing as they always did. When Jesus initially warne that the temple would be destroyed, brick by brick, and laid even with the ground. Paul now has to remind them of what he said previously to them (which we are not privy to) that the day of the Lord (which meant disaster in the OT) wouldn't happen until the falling away happened first, the man of sin appear. He will exalt himself against all that is sacred, all that is holy, sitting in the temple of God as if he was God. That in my opinion isn't the temple in Jerusalem because there was no place to be seated where someone can make that claim of Godhood. Paul, already had established the fact that those who were part of the TRUE ISRAEL OF gOD WERE THE TEMPLE THEMSELVES. Know ye not that you are the temple of God? All that is holy and scared were to be exalted against, that would be not only the Gospel, but everything that the Judeans believed. Why do I say this? Because when we read this verse it can be read as everything that is a so called god. That would be the Pharisees religion, and also lean towards Kabbalist Christianity known as Gnosticism. Which was starting to infiltrat Paul's churches. Now, claiming to be GOD, while being in the temple of GOD. Jesus said He was greater than the temple. Then we would look to how Diotrephes was taking over one particular church family, and wanting the preeminence among his brethren. We are told that only Christ has the preeminence. Therefore, the antichrists would be those who wanted to be first among their brethren.



To clarify the last statement concerning this generation I am saying there may be more falling out of truth in this generation vs the first century but at the same time many are being saved also.

If that is the case, then mathematically it would only be you left.

Because Apostolic One God Pentecostal on the wide frame of Christendom are a flea spec. Another thing, Jesus said we enter in a the almost closed tight door, through a very narrow path. again, if we do just some light math, the number would yield all the way to one guy left at the coming of Christ. This also blows away any thought of the socalled end time revival.

The falling away had to happen in the beginning while the church was still a baby. While it was still in the crib, at that point it could be smothered. While it was fresh, clean, transmission of doctrine was from the 12 to Paul, to the known world. The falling away isn't Mormons, or Moses Berg's Children of God Cult. It would be the faith once delivered unto the saints. Fresh and piping hot Truth. Not something that had to be dragged the dark ages and get scotch taped together at Azusa Street.

houston
11-20-2018, 05:46 PM
Scotch tape :lol

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 06:28 PM
When we met I made sure to double check what you said about agreeing with me. You said nothing about "non dispensation" post trib. I assumed you were telling me we were in agreement.

Mike, you knew how I believed, you knew I was non dispensational post trib. Double check again. You disagreed on my view on Mystery Babylon. You also knew I was buds with the Cohen.


So you also told me you believed in soul sleep and annihilation. You said you knew and preached for many Churches that taught this. I asked you then and will ask you here some 16 years later where are they?

They believe like me. ;)



Yea Im sure we disagree on Mystery Babylon. As to one Israel of God, I agree the Church is the true Israel.

Mike, everyone believes the church is some form of a spiritual Israel. We disagreed on how much the church is the spiritual Israel.



But there is much to also disagree with you stemming from that topic.

I believe this also.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

This means something.

Then if you believe that is still relevant for a group of people who call themselves Jews. Then you are not a believer in the True Israel of God. Because only can someone be part of the commonwealth of Israel through water baptism in Jesus name and the infilling of the Holy Ghost speaking with tongues. NO OTHER WAY.




Air is something that surrounds the Earth that men may breathe and live. It is in you, around you, and anywhere above the Earth. I dont know why Paul said "air" other than he was teaching us where we will meet the Lord when we are caught up.

What do you mean you don't know? Remember I am that ecclesiastical moron? I am that one who needs you to light my way back to the fold? You see, this is what I don't understand about people like you. You shove it all the way down to the soles of my feet, and then when an important question is asked you don't know. Mike, you are an instructor of the blind a teacher of babes. I'm wrong and you are NOT!!!

Air is breathable not the sky Mike. Want to know why Paul said air, because that is as far as they were going to be snatched. No up direction, because harpazo has no direction. It means immediately, you know, twinkling of an eye fast. They went from sleeping, to awakening, wide awake. The living would not proceed the dead. The dead would awake and go to glory, and as the living died they would join them. How many times I heard that from a Pentecostal preacher at a funeral. The OT saints were saved how Mike? How did they have the right standing with God until the day of redemption? 2 Chronicles 7:14, is the salvation message to the Judean and the Israelite. Jesus would complete every jot and tittle. Heaven and earth passing away was the OLD AGE of the law system. That church age mess is dispensationalism not Bible.




So here is what I said.

So the resurrection happens, followed by a catching up of the saints to meet the Lord in the air?

So we're good?

Ok so then you actually DISAGREE that the resurrection happens first then follwed by the catching up of the saints?

That is what I meant by "we're good".

We are not good. I believe in a resurrection of the living, and I believe those who are alive and religious are dead.




Think about the bitterness you have poured out constantly toward myself and others Dom.

Bitterness? No Mike, then that would mean I would be on your front porch tomorrow. That is bitterness. What we have here, is you coming after me,. Your Jesus incarnate thread was hijacked by yourself when you found the need to name me in a post. If you ever paid attention you would notice I don't post a lot about eschatology in the eschatology section when there isn't a hater involved. Those are the ones that I go after, like you. Beards? Who cares about that? You do. You who sits in his room while he tells everyone who is hard at work what will bring or stop revival? Those are the ones I go after, the hypocrites who don't do anything but moan and whine about the Apostolic movement, and blow their horn concerning eschatology when they themselves only care about the title of their particular candy stick end time theme. If you spent the night over the Cohen's house they would find you both dead in the morning covered in cheesy scallop potatoes. Both post tribs, but as different as night and day. Good God from Zion.



And you dont understand why I have not responded to every single demand you have made?

My Lands!!! Are you that insane? Hoss, you made an entire thread to come after me? Mike, go win a soul in your neighborhood, do something with what's left of your life. 1974 to 1985? Those are your glory days? I'm the eschatological dimwit. and you are the chosen of the Lord to teach Post Trib to Fort Lauderdale housewives? You won't respond to me, so you dedicate a thread to me? Go home with that stuff, seriously, you are a sad old man.




The more discussion the more strife and personal attacks.

Oh, because I'm not passive aggressive like you? Instead of the pitter patter of angel's feet with a sharp stick to quickly jab. I just let it all hang out? You mean I tell you how I feel about the shyster ministry of the Internet forum mad men. Who have never done anything as far as a church family goes, but are oh so wise to correct the ecclesiastical pygmies like myself. Who kill it every day, but then relax here to read more mumbo jumbo from the "blessed of the Lord" like yourself. Bitter? Don't flatter yourself Mike. You ain't seen bitter.

Post Tribulation Rapture you don't believe it, because If you did you would be doing something. SOMETHING.

houston
11-20-2018, 06:51 PM
They believe like me.

Did you win them over? There’s a drive-by poster here that we know. I won’t name names. It was said of him that he flies all over the world to convert others to his brand of eschatology :lol

Esaias
11-20-2018, 07:12 PM
Where does the Bible say "Second Coming"? Why "second"?

Esaias
11-20-2018, 07:52 PM
You also knew I was buds with the Cohen.


What's he been up to these days? Any idea?




Air is breathable not the sky Mike. Want to know why Paul said air, because that is as far as they were going to be snatched. No up direction, because harpazo has no direction. It means immediately, you know, twinkling of an eye fast. They went from sleeping, to awakening, wide awake. The living would not proceed the dead. The dead would awake and go to glory, and as the living died they would join them. How many times I heard that from a Pentecostal preacher at a funeral. The OT saints were saved how Mike? How did they have the right standing with God until the day of redemption? 2 Chronicles 7:14, is the salvation message to the Judean and the Israelite. Jesus would complete every jot and tittle. Heaven and earth passing away was the OLD AGE of the law system. That church age mess is dispensationalism not Bible.



"Then we... shall be caught up together with them in the clouds..."

Is this saying "we shall be seized/plucked together in the clouds with them"?

Or is it saying "we shall be seized/plucked together with those who are in the clouds"?

Hopefully I made the distinction clear...?

Evang.Benincasa
11-20-2018, 08:14 PM
What's he been up to these days? Any idea?

I try not to give it much thought. Last thing I heard he was fighting with his city because of a flood issue.




"Then we... shall be caught up together with them in the clouds..."

Is this saying "we shall be seized/plucked together in the clouds with them"?

Or is it saying "we shall be seized/plucked together with those who are in the clouds"?

The second one is

Hopefully I made the distinction clear...?

It is clear, yet it actually reads as the event does the change to both the living and dead at the same time. Therefore Paul clarifies the order of who goes first. We are the ones who miss out on a lot that these people must of discussed among themselves. Things that never made it into print which we have today. Paul is trying to straighten out a fear, that they had. Because for some reason they believed that they would proceed the dead. So, Paul is clarifying the order of events. The living shall not go before the dead, even though what happens to the dead is also happening to the living. Being seized into the cloud of witness is the real event that happens to them both. Still the dead go first.

houston
11-20-2018, 08:35 PM
What's he been up to these days? Any idea?

Selling degrees

http://atbc.org

Esaias
11-20-2018, 08:50 PM
Selling degrees

http://atbc.org

Good grief.

houston
11-20-2018, 09:05 PM
Good grief.

More grief


My advice is, leave the UPC because it is a Pentecostal catholic organization. If you do not, you will not be saved. All of your speaking in tongues, dancing, shouting, screaming hallelujah, will not save you. If you have the real Holy Ghost you will come out of the UPC.

Michael The Disciple
11-20-2018, 09:32 PM
Mike, you knew how I believed, you knew I was non dispensational post trib. Double check again. You disagreed on my view on Mystery Babylon. You also knew I was buds with the Cohen.

You got two out of three here Dom. We disagreed on Mystery Babylon. I thought (but was not sure) you were cruising Paltalk with Reckert. Pretty sure it was he who came in my room one night and listened for a good while to Apostolic doctrine.

When I started talking about the headcovering and beards he said I was with you until now.....you lost me.

As far as post trib "dispensation" I dont remember ever hearing that phrase until recently on this forum.

They believe like me.

Reckert?

Then if you believe that is still relevant for a group of people who call themselves Jews. Then you are not a believer in the True Israel of God. Because only can someone be part of the commonwealth of Israel through water baptism in Jesus name and the infilling of the Holy Ghost speaking with tongues. NO OTHER WAY.

Did I say a Jew is saved without being born again Acts 2:38? No.

I said EXACTLY what Paul said.

Romans 11:28

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

The unsaved Jews are enemies of the gospel. But concering the election (choosing) the Father loves them.

What do you mean you don't know? Remember I am that ecclesiastical moron? I am that one who needs you to light my way back to the fold? You see, this is what I don't understand about people like you. You shove it all the way down to the soles of my feet, and then when an important question is asked you don't know. Mike, you are an instructor of the blind a teacher of babes. I'm wrong and you are NOT!!!

Huh?

Air is breathable not the sky Mike. Want to know why Paul said air, because that is as far as they were going to be snatched. No up direction, because harpazo has no direction.

Is this supposed to be a special revelation of preterism? It seems like it would make little difference whether they were CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord IN THE AIR or they were simply translated where they are, if thats what you mean.

Nonetheless to be scriptural I confess I believe saints will be caught UP to meet the Lord in the air.

Heaven and earth passing away was the OLD AGE of the law system. That church age mess is dispensationalism not Bible.

Ok I confess I have never heard anyone say this until this past week. Feel free to explain how the Heaven and Earth are the law system? So the HEAVENS AND THE EARTH PASSED AWAY IN 70AD?

The Church age sounds reasonable and true to me.

1ofthechosen
11-20-2018, 09:58 PM
Selling degrees

http://atbc.org

ROFLOL thats one way to go about it. Everything's for sell!

Michael The Disciple
11-20-2018, 09:59 PM
Dom


We are not good. I believe in a resurrection of the living, and I believe those who are alive and religious are dead.

I believe in the resurrection of the DEAD. It is a foundation doctrine of Christ.

Hebrews 6:1-2

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Im trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you mean you believe like I do that salvation itself of a sinner is spiritually speaking a resurrection but there is yet a resurrection of dead persons?

But this seems to be part of the whole problem right? That at least some Prets believe Jesus resurrected the dead who died up till 70ad. They came alive and followed him into Heaven? So they would say PRESENTLY SPEAKING there will be no more resurrection of the dead?

That the resurrection has already passed?

Those are the ones that I go after, like you. Beards? Who cares about that? You do.

Agreed you go after me. Do I care if a man wears a beard or doesn't? No. If he doesnt want to I would be the last to judge him over it.

If he DOES want to and a Preacher says he is sinning or rebellious then THAT PREACHER is saying Jesus sinned and rebelled for as all the Preachers that teach this KNOW......that the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ had one.

You remember? The man who is the MEDIATOR between us and God?

They will one day be judged BY HIM.

My Lands!!! Are you that insane? Hoss, you made an entire thread to come after me? Mike, go win a soul in your neighborhood, do something with what's left of your life. 1974 to 1985? Those are your glory days? I'm the eschatological dimwit. and you are the chosen of the Lord to teach Post Trib to Fort Lauderdale housewives? You won't respond to me, so you dedicate a thread to me? Go home with that stuff, seriously, you are a sad old man.

I was simply telling you to answer your unceasing, never ending complaint why I dont answer the multitude of questions you always have. And when I answer a question by saying I DONT KNOW......then you hit harder than ever! It is what it is.

1ofthechosen
11-20-2018, 10:09 PM
You remember? The man who is the MEDIATOR between us and God?





The Spotless Blood of that man stands as a mediator between us and God. Apparently in between 68 Ad and 96 Ad He was as He says in Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." At this point He's a 100 % Diety the Glorified image of the Invisible God, the Sonship has ceased, but the blood of the Son lives to make intercession and wash many white and lo, even unto the end of this age.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 05:13 AM
I believe in the resurrection of the DEAD. It is a foundation doctrine of Christ.

So do I.

Hebrews 6:1-2

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.



Im trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you mean you believe like I do that salvation itself of a sinner is spiritually speaking a resurrection but there is yet a resurrection of dead persons?

Mike, look at my picture in my avatar? Do I look like one of the women you teach on Pal Talk? No, so stop trying to pull the Okey Doke, and explain WHY you believe that salvation is the death, burial, and resurrection of a soul. Last time I checked, the lion share of the Apostolic faith believed that. I do as well. Yet, with all your cuteness and desperately trying to avoid explaining how what you believe with chapter and verse over turns what I believe, you won't teach? Mike, are you ashamed or embarrassed? You created this thread just for you to teach me, but you refuse?


But this seems to be part of the whole problem right? That at least some Prets believe Jesus resurrected the dead who died up till 70ad. They came alive and followed him into Heaven? So they would say PRESENTLY SPEAKING there will be no more resurrection of the dead?

What? NO MORE RESURRECTION means what Mike? You believe that everyone including Moses and Elijah are presently sleeping. Just that Moses and Elijah got out of bed one time to meet Jesus on the mount of transfiguration? Then went back to their soul sleep?


Agreed you go after me. Do I care if a man wears a beard or doesn't? No. If he doesnt want to I would be the last to judge him over it.

You don't care? Mike that is unbelievable. Why? Because you haven't started a thread about the subject because you don't care. You started a thread about the subject because you believe that the clean shaven Apostolics are hindering revival. Yet, you sit in your room tapping your computer keys and done zero for the kingdom of GOD in your own town. No Bible study, no church group being taught by you personally. You are a crazy old man trapped in religion. :heeheehee



If he DOES want to and a Preacher says he is sinning or rebellious then THAT PREACHER is saying Jesus sinned and rebelled for as all the Preachers that teach this KNOW......that the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ had one.

Wow, like Preterism you don't included the details. You just throw statements out there. Like the clean shaven group are morons and you are the benevolent Christian ready to set the captives free. in the UPCI for instance. The posted video of Elder Urshan, saying that there was NO VERSES to condemn beards, and then gave HIS OPINION. That wasn't enough for you, like the religiously frustrated individual you are, you kept trying to prove that the shaved and saved group were reprobates. No, the men who believe this give reasons for their opinions like Elder Urshan. Reasons Mike, unlike you. So do you care? yeah, you care. Do you want to start a church to spread your wisdom? NO. You are ecclesiastically lazy on that level. You would rather sit in the comfort of your own room and stab away. You posted that God hadn't call you to do that? so, MIKE did God call you to be on forums and palTalk looking for silly women to not listen to their husbands and pastors? But listen to you?



You remember? The man who is the MEDIATOR between us and God?

They will one day be judged BY HIM.

Well in your mind you have two of them, one you call YAH, and the other you call Yahshua. Which one Mike? You threaten me with judgement? While you sit on this forum with your fake Hebrew skills? YAH isn't His name, it is JESUS. You know you threatened me with judgement over 16 years ago, and Mike you are still a kooky religious guy with zero accountability.



I was simply telling you to answer your unceasing, never ending complaint why I dont answer the multitude of questions you always have. And when I answer a question by saying I DONT KNOW......then you hit harder than ever! It is what it is.[/QUOTE]

Mike, just pointing out that you are just another religious hypocrite. Beards or no beards doesn't stop revival. telling a guy to shave (it happened to me when I came to church) didn't stop revival. Dealing with people who have no ecclesiastical street cred. Who talks a big game, claim they love souls while they call those in suits who are cleaned shaved devils. But they themselves who rail against the Aqua Velva crew just sit in their house on the Internet.

Doing nothing more than reaching into Church families to confuse. Mike, you posted to someone about their pastor not teaching eschatology, and therefore the poster got the idea you were coming against his pastor. Mike, if that poster left their church, where would they go? If I leave what I believe behind where do I go? What about my church family, the ones here and in Mexico, south America. Do we all go to you? Because after all you have a Xmas list of things you believe is needful to be in the "Biblical" faith. We all have read enough and watched enough of your beliefs over the years to know this. So, my question remains, where do we go? UPCI? You might slum around with them, but all you are is a spy. Because you sit there and critique the show, and then come back to the internet to report your findings. So, those guys won't work. But you haven't gotten your text message from God yet, so you won't start a church to teach all your information. So, where do we go?

Mike, your time is up.

You just don't realize it yet.

I'll come back later and see if you are willing to teach, preach, and exhort me to join your merry band.

I got to go to work.

Have fun.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 05:19 AM
The Spotless Blood of that man stands as a mediator between us and God. Apparently in between 68 Ad and 96 Ad He was as He says in Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." At this point He's a 100 % Diety the Glorified image of the Invisible God, the Sonship has ceased, but the blood of the Son lives to make intercession and wash many white and lo, even unto the end of this age.

You teach differently than the apostles.

1 Tim. 2:5

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Heb. 10:12

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

The key is to believe all....that is written. Not just part:highfive

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 05:59 AM
Yet, with all your cuteness and desperately trying to avoid explaining how what you believe with chapter and verse over turns what I believe, you won't teach? Mike, are you ashamed or embarrassed? You created this thread just for you to teach me, but you refuse?

Dom,

I presented 1 Thess 4:16-17 as a START of a Bible discussion. You could not even agree with the FIRST thing I said even tho I was only repeating what the Apostle said.

From that point on its been a waste of time to try to dialogue with you. Rather it's simply been a vindication that when I said the more I try to talk to you the more strife and personal attacks. You just cant stop yourself.

I was going to make a list of personal insults from you just on this one page but why should I bother?

So far you want to argue about "air". You have denied the resurrection of dead persons. You have said the heavens and the earth was the old covenant.

No wonder the UPCI has forbidden this doctrine to be taught by its Pastors.

Probably the most pitiful thing is you would not even vote for your own doctrine in the poll! I guess you would not want people to know up front what you believe.

So rave on Dom. I wont be leaving the forum. If you say something that is true I will amen you. Unless it is necessary I will avoid attempting discussion.

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 07:12 AM
You teach differently than the apostles.

1 Tim. 2:5

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Heb. 10:12

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

The key is to believe all....that is written. Not just part:highfive


In that way the blood of the man Christ Jesus stands as a mediator. I used the wrong verbage, the Sonship hasn't ceased but it has been fulfilled.

It's funny we talk about the book of Revelation and all these esoteric things in it. When the Book is called the Revealing or the unveiling of JESUS Christ. When in Chapter 1 we see that now He has become a 100% the Almighty. To read the book and miss out on what's being related in fulnesss in the 1st Chapter is to miss the whole purpose of the Book. And Paul may of taught that but, this is the last book chronologically of the New Testament at this point Jesus is declaring Himself as the Almighty. To this point this wasn't revealed to anyone. This is a brand new thing, so Paul and Apollo's aren't wrong (since you quotes the book of Hebrews), they were going off the fulnesss of what they had been revealed. John got the full revelation and that's what's written about here. So you have to see what is the mediator, the Blood of the man Christ Jesus it has been sprinkled upon the mercy seat forever standing as a mediator between God and man. Because He lives to make intercession for us as the Holy Ghost.

So at this point Jesus is making known the Sonship has been fulfilled. That's why He can say as in Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." At this point we can see the fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6 He is now fully the "Everlasting Father" as HE was, in the very beginning. The image of the invisible God the reflection of the fulnesss of His glory once again!

In the words of Jesus *Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 08:09 AM
Dom,

I presented 1 Thess 4:16-17 as a START of a Bible discussion. You could not even agree with the FIRST thing I said even tho I was only repeating what the Apostle said.

From that point on its been a waste of time to try to dialogue with you. Rather it's simply been a vindication that when I said the more I try to talk to you the more strife and personal attacks. You just cant stop yourself.

I was going to make a list of personal insults from you just on this one page but why should I bother?

So far you want to argue about "air". You have denied the resurrection of dead persons. You have said the heavens and the earth was the old covenant.

No wonder the UPCI has forbidden this doctrine to be taught by its Pastors.

Probably the most pitiful thing is you would not even vote for your own doctrine in the poll! I guess you would not want people to know up front what you believe.

So rave on Dom. I wont be leaving the forum. If you say something that is true I will amen you. Unless it is necessary I will avoid attempting discussion.

I’m raving? I won’t vote? Mike, first off I tried to point out to you that the polling only had two choices based solely on your bias of what you believe. Didn’t I?
The reason I brought up air is because it DOESNT mean heaven or sky. It is important point in discussing the verse. You then told me you don’t know anything about it, nor do you know why Paul failed to use the word for heaven or sky. You continually use the direction “up” when no direction is given in the original language or the Greek word meaning. Only in the English because the KJV translators wanted to present the suddenness of the Greek words meaning.
A list of insults? Mike, the beauty of passive aggression is that people like you relish that the appear Snow White while being the wicked witch. But, sadly that is religion. In short, you are moaning because all you know about your eschatology is two words POST and TRIB. No more no less. That is why you can honor occultist Charismatics who are Trinitarians just because they meet one or two points on your shopping list. Absolutely crazy how you will dispise on eschatology when you yourself can’t coherently teach anyone what you believe. Orange man bad. But ask why and you get the junk you been posting to me. You should trade places with Bill Marr. Seriously, air? You don’t have a clue why it was used, but I’m wrong. Resurrection? Mike, if someone says they believe in One Literal God and the God is YAH with his son Yahshua there’s a issue or not an issue. There is either two or one, or one is divine and the other is just a man prophet. You don’t teach about eschatology you talk about eschatology big difference Hoss, big difference.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 08:30 AM
Chosen

So at this point Jesus is making known the Sonship has been fulfilled. That's why He can say as in Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." At this point we can see the fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6 He is now fully the "Everlasting Father" as HE was, in the very beginning. The image of the invisible God the reflection of the fulnesss of His glory once again!

In the words of Jesus *Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

I have been teaching Jesus is the Father for 39 years. So that I know. If you are saying that Jesus is no longer the Son but ONLY the Father beware.

You would be denying the doctrine of Christ.

1 John 2:22-24

22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Or:

1 John 4:15

15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 08:44 AM
If anyone here believes like Preterist.org that the coming of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, and the eternal judgement took place in 70 ad they could always just present a straightforward teaching about it right here in this thread.

“Preterist” means past in fulfillment, and “Futurist” means future in fulfillment. Preterist basically means the opposite of Futurist. Futurists believe most end-time prophecies (especially the big three events — the Second Coming, Resurrection, and Judgment) are yet to be fulfilled. Preterists believe that most or all of Bible Prophecy (especially the big three events) has already been fulfilled in Christ and the on-going expansion of His Eternal Kingdom.

Or they could start a new thread.


Not just a verse or a thought followed by several pages of arguing over one word. But rather a concise and to the point statement of what you believe and why. Then we will know what it is you DO believe?

After all one doctrine should not have to be longer than entire books of the Bible to explain.

Amanah
11-21-2018, 09:01 AM
Preterism explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10FRxJ4_yJo

Amanah
11-21-2018, 09:23 AM
Preterism and the resurrection.

WAS CHRIST PHYSICALLY RESURRECTED?

YES! Absolutely, without a doubt. Since Christ's resurrection was physical, won't ours be? NO! Christ's actual resurrection was His going to Hades and coming back out. When he was resurrected from Hades, He was raised into his original body, which was transformed into His heavenly form. This was done as a SIGN to the apostles that he had done what He had promised. The resurrection of Jesus' body verified for His disciples, the resurrection of His soul. David had prophesied:

Psalms 16:10 (NKJV) For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Peter preached that David looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of Christ:

Acts 2:31 (NKJV) "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

These verses speak of both spiritual death (the soul in hades) and physical death (decay of the flesh). Jesus was resurrected from both.

The reason there are differences in the way we are raised and the way in which Christ was raised is because of those Biblically defined differences between Christ's body and ours. Differences such as:

Christ is the only one who is both fully God and fully Man -- God incarnate. (John 1:1-18). Christ is the only one who was virgin born, and, therefore, born without original sin. (Rom. 3:21-26; 5:12-21; 7:4-11; etc.). Christ is the only one who ever lived a sinless life. (Heb. 4:15). Christ is the only one promised that his flesh would not suffer decay. (Acts 2:27,31).

His human body was not subject to original sin, nor corruptible (i.e. He was "impeccable"), nor did He ever commit sin and become corrupted. Because of this, He could keep His selfsame body, whereas, we cannot.

Unless Jesus' body had been resurrected, His disciples would have had no assurance that His soul had been to Hades and had been resurrected. The physical resurrection of Christ was essential to verify the spiritual, to which it was tied. While the physical resurrection of our bodies would have no point, since we will not continue living on this planet, breathing earth's oxygen, and eating earth's food after we die physically.

WHAT HAPPENS TO US AT DEATH?

Since the resurrection is past, what happens to believers when they die? Their physical body goes back to dust from which it came:

Ecclesiastes 3:20 (NKJV) All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

And their spirit is united to their spiritual body and goes to be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:35-38 (NKJV) But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, YOU DO NOT SOW THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE, but mere grain; perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But GOD GIVES IT A BODY as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

We get the same kind of body Christ has, but we do not get it the same way He got His, nor do we get our same physical body back like Christ did. We get a new spiritual body which arises out of the inner man. God gives us a spiritual body!

1 Corinthians 15:44-46 (NKJV) It is sown a natural body, it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

This affirms two different kinds of bodies. Our natural body dies, and we receive a spiritual body. Paul says, "IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY."

Those of us who have trusted Christ in the New Covenant age, have life and do not need to be resurrected.

John 11:25-26 (NKJV) Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus is saying, "He who believes in me shall live (spiritually), even if he dies (physically), and everyone who lives (physically), and believes in Me, shall never die (spiritually)."

Two categories of believers are discussed: those who would die before the resurrection and those who would not. For those who died under the Old Covenant, He was the Resurrection, but for those who lived into the days of the New Covenant, He is the Life.

Under the New Covenant, there is no death, spiritually speaking:

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 (NKJV) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:4 (NKJV) "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Where there is no death, there is no need of a resurrection. We have eternal life and can never die spiritually. Therefore, we don't need a resurrection. At death, we go immediately to heaven in our spiritual body.

The resurrection was a one time event in which the Old Testament saints were brought out of Hades and finally overcame death to be with the Lord. We have put on immortality and will put on our immortal body when we die physically. As believers, we live in the presence of God, and in physical death, we simply drop the flesh and dwell only in the spiritual realm.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/1999_curtis_resurrection.html

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 09:31 AM
If anyone here believes like Preterist.org that the coming of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, and the eternal judgement took place in 70 ad they could always just present a straightforward teaching about it right here in this thread.


Or they could start a new thread.


Not just a verse or a thought followed by several pages of arguing over one word. But rather a concise and to the point statement of what you believe and why. Then we will know what it is you DO believe?

After all one doctrine should not have to be longer than entire books of the Bible to explain.

Mike, the "straightforward teaching starts with everything that Jesus came to do. Agreed? Wouldn't we have to be able to teach why He is the Christ to a
certain group who lived in a certain time in a certain geographical location?

Did Jesus come to His own? Who were His own? Those who were dead and in their graves PRIOR to Jesus' coming to Jerusalem as a child, born in Bethlehem how were those people saved?

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 09:44 AM
Or they could start a new thread.

:lol Its called the eschatology section. Which we (I think you posted a handful of times but found you didn't hold much of an audience then left) have a plethora of information concerning the resurrection by myself,Elder Micheal Blume, and Brother Wiltcher.

Mike,what was the salvation plan for Judeans and Israelites prior to the first advent of Christ?


Not just a verse or a thought followed by several pages of arguing over one word.

Mike? You call arguing over one word, you coping out by saying you didn't know? That you didn't know why Paul even used the word instead of the Greek word for heaven and sky? That is arguing pages? You mad. :)

Mike, the verses meaning is predicated on that word. This is coming from Mike the Disciple who will burn up an entire thread on beards and one word for long in 1st Corinthians 11. He wants Preterist to do a tap dance on command but won't teach a good clear refutation using his own doctrine.

Mike, you can't disprove anything, if you don't have anything yourself.



But rather a concise and to the point statement of what you believe and why. Then we will know what it is you DO believe?

Good, let's start with what was the salvation message of the Judeans and Israelites prior to the first advent of Christ?


After all one doctrine should not have to be longer than entire books of the Bible to explain.

That's funny coming from a guy who can fill pages of a thread with explanations of One God. Shouldn't need the a huge explanation on how Jesus is God longer than the books of the Bible. Hypocrite. :lol

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 09:51 AM
The resurrection was a one time event in which the Old Testament saints were brought out of Hades and finally overcame death to be with the Lord. We have put on immortality and will put on our immortal body when we die physically. As believers, we live in the presence of God, and in physical death, we simply drop the flesh and dwell only in the spiritual realm.

Now, Mike, what was the salvation plan for the Judeans and Israelites prior to the advent of Christ?

:begging

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 10:01 AM
Also dragging poor old Hymenaeus down the street to prove he was an early Preterist is wrong. Because one, if what he teaching was about a physical resurrection then he could of told his opposition that he personally point to the resurrected. I believe that Hymenaeus was teaching that the resurrection of Jesus, and the many who walked into Jerusalem were what he claimed to be the resurrection which was past. Yet, there is more. Because everything within eschatology of Judeans and Israelites had to do with them and God. Gentiles are grafted in to their olive tree, not the other way around. It is all about Israel, and it must make sense to the first century believer, not Americans who think beards or no beards are important on any level. Why did Jesus come, who did He come to? Who were His people? The same as the prophetic prophesy of Daniel being about HIS PEOPLE. The resurrection in Daniel is about his people? Sleeping in the dust of the earth prior to any arrival of Christ. How did those guys have slavation? Did Jesus go to hell rattling keys and preaching a sermon about the Gospel? Anyone heard that? Preached to souls? While the Bible says as the tree falleth so shall it be found? Any answers?

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 10:15 AM
Preterism explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10FRxJ4_yJo

The class was 12 weeks long?!?! That's it I'm no longer a PRETERIST!

Thank you Sister Amanah. ;)

Amanah
11-21-2018, 10:23 AM
The class was 12 weeks long?!?! That's it I'm no longer a PRETERIST!

Thank you Sister Amanah. ;)

no, lol, he covers the history of all interpretations of The Revelation.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYFBLkHop2anlJ9wrDXdhugr95AJ3dMKA

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 11:54 AM
I have been teaching Jesus is the Father for 39 years. So that I know. If you are saying that Jesus is no longer the Son but ONLY the Father beware.

You would be denying the doctrine of Christ.

1 John 2:22-24

22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Or:

1 John 4:15

15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

I am not denying the Son at all, but rather allowing Him to stand as the scripture portrays Him. Allowing Him to be glorified, and allowing Him to stand as who He said He was"The Almighty". You believe there is a infilled man in Heaven Mike? So Hes 100 % man and a 100 % God still?

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 12:23 PM
no, lol, he covers the history of all interpretations of The Revelation.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYFBLkHop2anlJ9wrDXdhugr95AJ3dMKA

Then I’m pan trib.

Because I cannot sit through dry as toast lectures. Especially about eschatology.
:lol

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 01:17 PM
But, thank you Sister Amanah for posting the information.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 01:28 PM
Dom

Its called the eschatology section. Which we (I think you posted a handful of times but found you didn't hold much of an audience then left) have a plethora of information concerning the resurrection by myself,Elder Micheal Blume, and Brother Wiltcher.

It should be easy Dom. All I asked was for a straight forward presentation by someone who believes this doctrine. So you have no written teaching on it that you could post here?

I'm not going to watch a 10-12 hour teaching session about it either. But if you present an introduction that could be read in an hour, hour and a half we would have something to start with.

You make it sound like it would be longer than the entire New Testament to present one foundation doctrine.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 01:32 PM
Preterism and the resurrection.

WAS CHRIST PHYSICALLY RESURRECTED?

YES! Absolutely, without a doubt. Since Christ's resurrection was physical, won't ours be? NO! Christ's actual resurrection was His going to Hades and coming back out. When he was resurrected from Hades, He was raised into his original body, which was transformed into His heavenly form. This was done as a SIGN to the apostles that he had done what He had promised. The resurrection of Jesus' body verified for His disciples, the resurrection of His soul. David had prophesied:

Psalms 16:10 (NKJV) For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Peter preached that David looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of Christ:

Acts 2:31 (NKJV) "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

These verses speak of both spiritual death (the soul in hades) and physical death (decay of the flesh). Jesus was resurrected from both.

The reason there are differences in the way we are raised and the way in which Christ was raised is because of those Biblically defined differences between Christ's body and ours. Differences such as:

Christ is the only one who is both fully God and fully Man -- God incarnate. (John 1:1-18). Christ is the only one who was virgin born, and, therefore, born without original sin. (Rom. 3:21-26; 5:12-21; 7:4-11; etc.). Christ is the only one who ever lived a sinless life. (Heb. 4:15). Christ is the only one promised that his flesh would not suffer decay. (Acts 2:27,31).

His human body was not subject to original sin, nor corruptible (i.e. He was "impeccable"), nor did He ever commit sin and become corrupted. Because of this, He could keep His selfsame body, whereas, we cannot.

Unless Jesus' body had been resurrected, His disciples would have had no assurance that His soul had been to Hades and had been resurrected. The physical resurrection of Christ was essential to verify the spiritual, to which it was tied. While the physical resurrection of our bodies would have no point, since we will not continue living on this planet, breathing earth's oxygen, and eating earth's food after we die physically.

WHAT HAPPENS TO US AT DEATH?

Since the resurrection is past, what happens to believers when they die? Their physical body goes back to dust from which it came:

Ecclesiastes 3:20 (NKJV) All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

And their spirit is united to their spiritual body and goes to be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:35-38 (NKJV) But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, YOU DO NOT SOW THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE, but mere grain; perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But GOD GIVES IT A BODY as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

We get the same kind of body Christ has, but we do not get it the same way He got His, nor do we get our same physical body back like Christ did. We get a new spiritual body which arises out of the inner man. God gives us a spiritual body!

1 Corinthians 15:44-46 (NKJV) It is sown a natural body, it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

This affirms two different kinds of bodies. Our natural body dies, and we receive a spiritual body. Paul says, "IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY."

Those of us who have trusted Christ in the New Covenant age, have life and do not need to be resurrected.

John 11:25-26 (NKJV) Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus is saying, "He who believes in me shall live (spiritually), even if he dies (physically), and everyone who lives (physically), and believes in Me, shall never die (spiritually)."

Two categories of believers are discussed: those who would die before the resurrection and those who would not. For those who died under the Old Covenant, He was the Resurrection, but for those who lived into the days of the New Covenant, He is the Life.

Under the New Covenant, there is no death, spiritually speaking:

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 (NKJV) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:4 (NKJV) "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Where there is no death, there is no need of a resurrection. We have eternal life and can never die spiritually. Therefore, we don't need a resurrection. At death, we go immediately to heaven in our spiritual body.

The resurrection was a one time event in which the Old Testament saints were brought out of Hades and finally overcame death to be with the Lord. We have put on immortality and will put on our immortal body when we die physically. As believers, we live in the presence of God, and in physical death, we simply drop the flesh and dwell only in the spiritual realm.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/1999_curtis_resurrection.html

I will have a comment or two on this but for what I'm looking for mostly is a straightforward teaching that shows the coming of Christ, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement happened in 70ad.

Amanah
11-21-2018, 02:11 PM
I will have a comment or two on this but for what I'm looking for mostly is a straightforward teaching that shows the coming of Christ, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement happened in 70ad.

Brother Michael, I was just trying to provide some info, the video is about 40 minutes long and I thought it was a decent introduction. Also one of the things I personally was curious about was the resurrection, so I found the excerpt by David Curtis and posted it for informational purposes.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 02:32 PM
Brother Michael, I was just trying to provide some info, the video is about 40 minutes long and I thought it was a decent introduction. Also one of the things I personally was curious about was the resurrection, so I found the exert by David Curtis and posted it for informational purposes.

Sister you are razor sharp.:thumbsup

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 02:45 PM
It should be easy Dom. All I asked was for a straight forward presentation by someone who believes this doctrine. So you have no written teaching on it that you could post here?

I'm not going to watch a 10-12 hour teaching session about it either. But if you present an introduction that could be read in an hour, hour and a half we would have something to start with.

You make it sound like it would be longer than the entire New Testament to present one foundation doctrine.

Mike, tell me again. Why won’t you allow me to ask my questions? Then, you will see how I believe this teaching. Like air in Thessalonians. That was a good start, but it isn’t part of your NPC faith. Therefore you bailed on the discussion. Or how about the fig tree? I asked a question, and since you had no clue, you bailed with...”it has no meaning!!!” What fun, what absolute light joy it is to be in a discussion with you. Jesus wouldnt waste His time with you in a discussion, because you are perfect, and say you see, when it is more than obvious you are blind. So, let’s have a discussion, how were the Judeans saved prior to the first advent of Christ. Listen, maybe you can light some incense and chant YAH YAH YAH. :lol

But seriously, let’s talk, tell me about Israel, and we can both see why it all had to be wound up during the time of Christ. In the days of the feet? Potter’s clay, mingled with Roman Iron? Rock cut out strikes image, image collapsed and rock becomes the world conquerer. Go ahead Mike, let’s play. How were Israelis and Judeans saved prior to Acts 2:38?

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 02:51 PM
I will have a comment or two on this but for what I'm looking for mostly is a straightforward teaching that shows the coming of Christ, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement happened in 70ad.

Mike why do you want someone to believe the rapture of the church happened in 70 AD so badly?

My question is does anyone believe that? If so please state that position, because If you do could you please explain why.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 02:52 PM
Another side note. Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would vanish from the Law until heaven and earth vanished. Why isn’t the temple sacrificial law still being practiced? James thought it important enough for Paul to be all things to all men that he may win some by going their with a vow.
This is it, in Christianity you get taught some OT stuff like feasts and how to make up Hebrew sounding names for God. But you are rarely ever taught the huge importance of the tent and temple. How important the priest craft were to the Israelites and Judeans.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 02:54 PM
Mike why do you want someone to believe the rapture of the church happened in 70 AD so badly?

My question is does anyone believe that? If so please state that position, because If you do could you please explain why.

Maybe Mike believes it secretly? :D

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 03:29 PM
Mike, tell me again. Why won’t you allow me to ask my questions? Then, you will see how I believe this teaching. Like air in Thessalonians. That was a good start, but it isn’t part of your NPC faith. Therefore you bailed on the discussion. Or how about the fig tree? I asked a question, and since you had no clue, you bailed with...”it has no meaning!!!” What fun, what absolute light joy it is to be in a discussion with you. Jesus wouldnt waste His time with you in a discussion, because you are perfect, and say you see, when it is more than obvious you are blind. So, let’s have a discussion, how were the Judeans saved prior to the first advent of Christ. Listen, maybe you can light some incense and chant YAH YAH YAH. :lol

But seriously, let’s talk, tell me about Israel, and we can both see why it all had to be wound up during the time of Christ. In the days of the feet? Potter’s clay, mingled with Roman Iron? Rock cut out strikes image, image collapsed and rock becomes the world conquerer. Go ahead Mike, let’s play. How were Israelis and Judeans saved prior to Acts 2:38?

I dont have weeks or months to tediously strive over one word at a time discussions, as you demand answers all the while attacking me personally. I have asked you to put out your belief to be read and examined. You wont. I get it.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 03:36 PM
Brother Michael, I was just trying to provide some info, the video is about 40 minutes long and I thought it was a decent introduction. Also one of the things I personally was curious about was the resurrection, so I found the excerpt by David Curtis and posted it for informational purposes.

I apologize if I seemed to have made light of it. I will watch it if its 40 min of introducing preterism.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 03:49 PM
Mike why do you want someone to believe the rapture of the church happened in 70 AD so badly?

My question is does anyone believe that? If so please state that position, because If you do could you please explain why.

It is my understanding Dom and others here believe in it. What do you think that I am making this up? Dom will argue about the word "rapture". Then he will argue about the "air". Or about the word "up". He will demand answers that will carry you down many other directions.

He may not openly and straightforwardly say he believes in it. You apparently dont believe it. Ask Dom if he believes it is heresy to believe Jesus came and resurrected the dead, and took the living saints to glory, and the heavens and the earth passed away in 70ad.

Amanah
11-21-2018, 03:49 PM
I apologize if I seemed to have made light of it. I will watch it if its 40 min of introducing preterism.

No need, you probably have a basic understanding already. I posted it in case there was someone who did not.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 04:01 PM
It is my understanding Dom and others here believe in it. What do you think that I am making this up? Dom will argue about the word "rapture". Then he will argue about the "air". Or about the word "up". He will demand answers that will carry you down many other directions.

He may not openly and straightforwardly say he believes in it. You apparently dont believe it. Ask Dom if he believes it is heresy to believe Jesus came and resurrected the dead, and took the living saints to glory, and the heavens and the earth passed away in 70ad.

I believe it is heresy to call God made up names. :heeheehee

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 04:03 PM
I apologize if I seemed to have made light of it. I will watch it if its 40 min of introducing preterism.

Don't apologize, typical passive aggressive behavior.

Mike, 1974 to 2018 and done little to nothing.

Heaven and earth passed away Mike, Jesus said so. :thumbsup

JamesGlen
11-21-2018, 04:14 PM
I dont have weeks or months to tediously strive over one word at a time discussions, as you demand answers all the while attacking me personally. I have asked you to put out your belief to be read and examined. You wont. I get it.


Let’s clear up something questionable here, with MTD & DB. Since you fellas are scrapping it out...

Paul said his Hope was what he was on trial for, why he was chained up, persecuted, and THAT HOPE was for the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

The following scriptures prove it.


Acts 26:6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today


Acts 28:20
So for this reason I have called to see you and speak with you. It is because of the hope of Israel that I am bound with this chain."

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.


Lets ask you both a simple question:
————————————————————————-




Michael The Disciple, If you are not ashamed of what you believe, then publicly answer this simple question:

Do you believe this to still be a future event for us?

——————————————————

D. Benincasa, If you are not ashamed of what you believe, then publicly answer this simple question:

Do you believe this to still be a future event for us?




Fellas, please don’t ramble some nonsense off in response to this, just answer a simple, “yes or no”, to show your position on this, in comparison with Paul’s position.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 04:30 PM
It is my understanding Dom and others here believe in it.

Nope, I'm the only one and therefore I got this thread. :)


What do you think that I am making this up?

Saying I believe in a catching away, rapture in 70 AD. when you know differently is pathetic. Honestly. But, since the resurrection and a rapture is still future maybe you would like to show us? Listen ask YAH to allow you to show me if there is just a resurrection, or two resurrections and a rapture. Or just a rapture which is part of the resurrection? Hey, 70 A.D. sounds like Heresy? Well, buddy boy, you have so many different views out there they all must be drinking the shampoo. How about a soul sleep where the souls are all sleeping in the presence of the Lord? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, right? So, they don't what to say that those are conscience souls so they say they are sleeping souls in the presence of the Lord. Had a Brahamite tell me that one. How about since everyone is sleeping and heaven is totally empty (funny how we are supposedly currently seated with Christ in "heavenly places) Elijah was NEVER taken into heaven with the whirlwind and the flaming chariot of Israel. He just got dumped on a mountain somewhere and penned a letter. Yet, he gave up his prophetship by passing his mantle even though he wasn't dead? Yep, I am the heretic. Har dee har. :lol


Dom will argue about the word "rapture".

Because it is like the word Trinity, it was fabricated from the Latin vulgates Latin for harpazo. But since you are ecclesiastically thimble deep you mock it. So I am supposed to give up everything and follow your tail end to your trailer in Kentucky because you have the answers? Don't forget fig tree Mike, don't forget it means nothing. Good God in Zion.


Then he will argue about the "air".

Because the word is Greek, the New Testament was written to Greek speaking people who didn't live in Kentucky. Obviously the words mean something Mike. We are having a discussion about what words mean??? Right? Oh, but that is only when it is in your favor? To understand the verse, you have to understand the words. You know, like you were taught in school? That's how language works? The words mean something therefore you will understand the passage due to each words meaning? Like Fig tree



Or about the word "up".

Because it isn't in the verse in the original language. Paul didn't write a direction. The KJV translators were emphasizing the action of the word. Same as Gerome when he translated it into Latin. Hey Mike I'm POST TRIB, very post trib. :heeheehee



He will demand answers that will carry you down many other directions.

Mike, I'm trying to get a discussion going, but you as many many futurists don't have a clue why you believe what you believe. You know, I never thought I'd say this. My lands I never thought I say this. But Elder LeDeay, ahhhhh, Elder LeDeay you are greatly missed. That man at least would debate by using what he believed to refute what you believed. Never hesitate. Ahhhh, now I am going to wash my eyes out with soap.


He may not openly and straightforwardly say he believes in it.

Mike, that would be like me posting a thesis then you using it for toilet paper.
Right? That is was the reason you avoided my questions for years, because you believe you would be casting pearl? I squeeze every word? You hypocrite.


You apparently dont believe it. Ask Dom if he believes it is heresy to believe Jesus came and resurrected the dead, and took the living saints to glory, and the heavens and the earth passed away in 70ad.

Well, he is still trying to find out about your pre existing body for Jesus doctrine.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 04:41 PM
Let’s clear up something questionable here, with MTD & DB. Since you fellas are scrapping it out...

Paul said his Hope was what he was on trial for, why he was chained up, persecuted, and THAT HOPE was for the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Eternal life is the hope they were waiting for.

The following scriptures prove it.


Acts 26:6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today

Promise to the ancestors was eternal life. Right? If not show me all the resurrection verses in the Old Testament. Hint Ezekiel 37:1-14 isn't one of them. :)



Acts 28:20
So for this reason I have called to see you and speak with you. It is because of the hope of Israel that I am bound with this chain."

Hope of Israel, was the hope of Christ, completing the law, taking away sin, and giving them eternal life.



Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Notice Paul is still talking to Israel/Judeans about what was initially promised to them. They slept with their fathers awaiting the day they would be redeemed. How were the Judeans and Israelites saved prior to the Advent of Christ? How would they partake of the flesh and blood of Christ?



Lets ask you both a simple question:


D. Benincasa, If you are not ashamed of what you believe, then publicly answer this simple question:

Do you believe this to still be a future event for us?[/B]

Yes, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.





Fellas, please don’t ramble some nonsense off in response to this, just answer a simple, “yes or no”, to show your position on this, in comparison with Paul’s position.

YES I believe just like the Apostle Paul believes

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 04:52 PM
I dont have weeks or months to tediously strive over one word at a time discussions, as you demand answers all the while attacking me personally. I have asked you to put out your belief to be read and examined. You wont. I get it.

But the same can be said for you. Plus I have no respect for you. If you would of allow me to flow and go with Apostolic1ness over in the other thread you would of had tons to read. But, you hated every minute of it. You ever noticed how Jesus didn't answer the questions of religious nut jobs? Why? Because all they were trying to do was to get answers to shred the answers. I asked you to discuss this with me, you teach me, but you mocked fig tree, up, air. Mike, I love you, but God knows I don't like you at all. Everything you are about actually repels me. You don't remember blowing me off when I first started into this teaching? You actually don't remember? You religious dude. Even back then you wouldn't even discuss anything. But back then I would let it all hang out to people like yourself. Then would spends hours as they slimed everything I wrote to them to explain. Beards? Shaven faces? Dude, see Apostolic1ness go back over to your Jehovah Witness Jesus thread and look at our conversation. Learn from him.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 04:55 PM
Oh, and another thing!

Who is Harry Morse!?!

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 05:06 PM
Eternal life is the hope they were waiting for.

The following scriptures prove it.



Promise to the ancestors was eternal life. Right? If not show me all the resurrection verses in the Old Testament. Hint Ezekiel 37:1-14 isn't one of them. :)



Hope of Israel, was the hope of Christ, completing the law, taking away sin, and giving them eternal life.



Notice Paul is still talking to Israel/Judeans about what was initially promised to them. They slept with their fathers awaiting the day they would be redeemed. How were the Judeans and Israelites saved prior to the Advent of Christ? How would they partake of the flesh and blood of Christ?



Yes, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.





YES I believe just like the Apostle Paul believes

So synopsis of all this is to say you don't believe in a traditional rapture? Sort of what I said about the so called "the Great Tribulation", seeing it as something forced upon the text?

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 05:07 PM
Oh, and another thing!

Who is Harry Morse!?!

LOL, Scott do we have any idea yet??

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 05:12 PM
So synopsis of all this is to say you don't believe in a traditional rapture? Sort of what I said about the so called "the Great Tribulation", seeing it as something forced upon the text?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/48544549cb0195a7b81b8a7ec003a445/tenor.gif?itemid=9197193

JamesGlen
11-21-2018, 05:13 PM
Eternal life is the hope they were waiting for.

The following scriptures prove it.



Promise to the ancestors was eternal life. Right? If not show me all the resurrection verses in the Old Testament. Hint Ezekiel 37:1-14 isn't one of them. :)

Daniel 12:2




Hope of Israel, was the hope of Christ, completing the law, taking away sin, and giving them eternal life.



Notice Paul is still talking to Israel/Judeans about what was initially promised to them. They slept with their fathers awaiting the day they would be redeemed. How were the Judeans and Israelites saved prior to the Advent of Christ? How would they partake of the flesh and blood of Christ?



Yes, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.





YES I believe just like the Apostle Paul believes





Scripture shows Paul saying his Hope was in the resurrection of BOTH the just and the unjust.

Yet you say Paul’s Hope was actually eternal life, for not only the just, but the unjust?



Again, Paul said his Hope was in the resurrection of not only the just, but the unjust?


So I ask you again, for clarification purposes, do you hope(as Paul) hope in a future resurrection of BOTH the just AND the UNJUST?







How is Paul saying his Hope is in a resurrection of the unjust, actually meaning eternal life for them?

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 05:14 PM
LOL, Scott do we have any idea yet??

Form what I gathered from houston is that he was the great grandson of George Washington. He because a Pentecostal and started to chop down cherry trees all around Azusa Street.

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 05:18 PM
https://media1.tenor.com/images/48544549cb0195a7b81b8a7ec003a445/tenor.gif?itemid=9197193

I feel that way about much of what's called orthodox Eschatology so I can't say that's wrong.

But where is the 1 person (besides for Light he doesn't count) that believes the ressurection took place in 70 AD? Do we have any takers? If not this thread is pointless...

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 05:22 PM
Scripture shows Paul saying his Hope was in the resurrection of BOTH the just and the unjust.
You say Paul’s Hope was actually eternal life, for not only the just, but the unjust?

The Hope of Israel is eternal life, since when do unjust people have hope in being lost? :lol


Do you see the problem with that?

No, do you?



Again, Paul said his Hope was in the resurrection of not only the just, but the unjust?

So, you are saying that the Apostle Paul hoped that people would die lost?

Hope of Israel is eternal life and are not those who have no hope 1 Thessalonians 4:13.



So I ask you again, for clarification purposes, do you hope(as Paul) hope in a future resurrection of BOTH the just AND the UNJUST?

I have hope in eternal life just like Paul. That is pretty clear.

I don't hope for the unjust to be judged to damnation, I hope for them to be converted.

So, Glen, now is there an Israel today? Where is it?

Esaias
11-21-2018, 05:26 PM
I feel that way about much of what's called orthodox Eschatology so I can't say that's wrong.

But where is the 1 person (besides for Light he doesn't count) that believes the ressurection took place in 70 AD? Do we have any takers? If not this thread is pointless...

My understanding is that most preterists believe resurrection took place in AD 70 as a judicial change of position, not that everybody was raised from the dead physically, but that a change took place in which the departed saints went to heaven and all living saints join with them in heaven when they die. Also, that the same thing applies to the lost: the wicked dead were cast into the lake of fire and all since then who die lost are resurrected into damnation as well. So the resurrection in AD 70 is more of a change of circumstances for mankind relative to their destiny as opposed to an event in which bodies come out of graves.

Of course, not being a preterist myself, I may have this all wrong. Apologies if I am mistaken, I do not want to misrepresent anything.

JamesGlen
11-21-2018, 05:37 PM
The Hope of Israel is eternal life, since when do unjust people have hope in being lost? :lol



No, do you?



So, you are saying that the Apostle Paul hoped that people would die lost?

Hope of Israel is eternal life and are not those who have no hope 1 Thessalonians 4:13.



I have hope in eternal life just like Paul. That is pretty clear.

I don't hope for the unjust to be judged to damnation, I hope for them to be converted.

So, Glen, now is there an Israel today? Where is it?


Paul said his Hope was for BOTH. BOTH
It’s an event of both.
The resurrection of the just AND THE UNJUST was Paul’s hope.


Respectfully, it seems your hope is NOT the same as Paul’s.

It seems you’re attempting to change the scripture to fit your hope.

What did Paul mean when he said his Hope was also in the resurrection of the unjust ?

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 05:37 PM
My understanding is that most preterists believe resurrection took place in AD 70 as a judicial change of position, not that everybody was raised from the dead physically, but that a change took place in which the departed saints went to heaven and all living saints join with them in heaven when they die. Also, that the same thing applies to the lost: the wicked dead were cast into the lake of fire and all since then who die lost are resurrected into damnation as well. So the resurrection in AD 70 is more of a change of circumstances for mankind relative to their destiny as opposed to an event in which bodies come out of graves.

Of course, not being a preterist myself, I may have this all wrong. Apologies if I am mistaken, I do not want to misrepresent anything.

No, you are a 100% correct as per usual. :kickcan

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 05:38 PM
My understanding is that most preterists believe resurrection took place in AD 70 as a judicial change of position, not that everybody was raised from the dead physically, but that a change took place in which the departed saints went to heaven and all living saints join with them in heaven when they die. Also, that the same thing applies to the lost: the wicked dead were cast into the lake of fire and all since then who die lost are resurrected into damnation as well. So the resurrection in AD 70 is more of a change of circumstances for mankind relative to their destiny as opposed to an event in which bodies come out of graves.

Of course, not being a preterist myself, I may have this all wrong. Apologies if I am mistaken, I do not want to misrepresent anything.

Is this more classical pretrist thought? Did Classic Pretrism get created by the Jesuits, is that true?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

And if so EB whats the difference in what you believe and this? Are they the same? Or only the same term used?

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 05:41 PM
Is this more classical pretrist thought? Did Classic Pretrism get created by the Jesuits, is that true?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

And if so EB whats the difference in what you believe and this? Are they the same? Or only the same term used?

I believe ehsacly as Esaias posted. Jesuits didn't create anything but the CIA.

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 05:43 PM
My understanding is that most preterists believe resurrection took place in AD 70 as a judicial change of position, not that everybody was raised from the dead physically, but that a change took place in which the departed saints went to heaven and all living saints join with them in heaven when they die. Also, that the same thing applies to the lost: the wicked dead were cast into the lake of fire and all since then who die lost are resurrected into damnation as well. So the resurrection in AD 70 is more of a change of circumstances for mankind relative to their destiny as opposed to an event in which bodies come out of graves.

Of course, not being a preterist myself, I may have this all wrong. Apologies if I am mistaken, I do not want to misrepresent anything.

Can you explain what you mean by "a judicial change", or "a change of circumstances". Like Heaven and Hell are real and at hand now? No more soul sleep as MTD would put it, like from 70 AD on straight to hell or straight to glory one way trip? If so I can agree with that kind of, but why 70 AD what was the Importance of that year, and time period?

Esaias
11-21-2018, 05:48 PM
Is this more classical pretrist thought? Did Classic Pretrism get created by the Jesuits, is that true?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

And if so EB whats the difference in what you believe and this? Are they the same? Or only the same term used?

Older preterism maintained a future bodily resurrection, Second Advent, etc (much like partial preterism). It's main distinctive was referring the bulk of Revelation to either pre-Constantinian Rome, or to Nero's persecutions, in opposition to historicism which views Revelation as spanning most or all of church history.

Esaias
11-21-2018, 05:51 PM
Can you explain what you mean by "a judicial change", or "a change of circumstances". Like Heaven and Hell are real and at hand now? No more soul sleep as MTD would put it, like from 70 AD on straight to hell or straight to glory one way trip? If so I can agree with that kind of, but why 70 AD what was the Importance of that year, and time period?

I'm not sure I'm the one to explain that. By judicial change I mean a change in God's arrangement of things. Prior, everyone slept in death. In AD70 the Levitical Old Covenant system was completely ended and the New Covenant system was fully operational. So, no more soul sleep.

Again, I'm not a preterist so I don't feel too comfortable examining preterism, I'd rather an actual preterist do so.

JamesGlen
11-21-2018, 05:52 PM
Paul said his Hope was for BOTH. BOTH
It’s an event of both.
The resurrection of the just AND THE UNJUST was Paul’s hope.


Respectfully, it seems your hope is NOT the same as Paul’s.

It seems you’re attempting to change the scripture to fit your hope.

What did Paul mean when he said his Hope was also in the resurrection of the unjust ?




Acts 24:15

15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

English grammar isn’t all that complicated here, brother.

Paul’s Hope was in BOTH.
Your hope is not.


Time to re-evaluate your doctrine.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 05:52 PM
Can you explain what you mean by "a judicial change", or "a change of circumstances". Like Heaven and Hell are real and at hand now? No more soul sleep as MTD would put it, like from 70 AD on straight to hell or straight to glory one way trip? If so I can agree with that kind of, but why 70 AD what was the Importance of that year?

Actually it is not only a date but the month is important.

Head of gold Nebuchadnezzar sacks the first temple 9th of Av 587 and the Roman Iron beats down the temple on the 9th of Av 70 A.D. Daniel 9:24 we have seventy sevens were determined upon Jerusalem for it to complete its transgressions, to make an end for sins and for everlasting righteousness.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 05:54 PM
Acts 24:15

15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

English grammar isn’t all that complicated here, brother.

Paul’s Hope was in BOTH.

OK, I give up. Are you saying that the hope of Israel was that the unjust would have eternal life? Actually what do you believe happens to the resurrected unjust person?

houston
11-21-2018, 05:55 PM
Actually it is not only a date but the month is important.

Head of gold Nebuchadnezzar sacks the first temple 9th of Av 587 and the Roman Iron beats down the temple on the 9th of Av 70 A.D. Daniel 9:24 we have seventy sevens were determined upon Jerusalem for it to complete its transgressions, to make an end for sins and for everlasting righteousness.

:hanky

Esaias
11-21-2018, 05:57 PM
Actually it is not only a date but the month is important.

Head of gold Nebuchadnezzar sacks the first temple 9th of Av 587 and the Roman Iron beats down the temple on the 9th of Av 70 A.D. Daniel 9:24 we have seventy sevens were determined upon Jerusalem for it to complete its transgressions, to make an end for sins and for everlasting righteousness.

Ah, interesting. Got any charts? lol just kidding. Are you saying the Seventy Weeks extends to AD 70?

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 05:59 PM
Ah, interesting. Got any charts? lol just kidding. Are you saying the Seventy Weeks extends to AD 70?

No.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 05:59 PM
Dom

You don't remember blowing me off when I first started into this teaching? You actually don't remember? You religious dude. Even back then you wouldn't even discuss anything. But back then I would let it all hang out to people like yourself.

I tried to give you the benefit of having a bad memory. Now it seems more like you are just a bold faced liar. The only thing you questioned me about was Elijah going to Heaven. Not once did you engage or try to engage me on Paltalk about this issue.

When I talk about knowing you before I am referring to Paltalk where we had a handful of discussions. By the time we began clashing over preterism it was on these forums and you were already embracing it.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:00 PM
Also I had a chart (it is down somewhere in the eschatology section) it was created by an evangelist. I had it in photobucket but now for some reason I can't retrieve my own photos from them.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:04 PM
I tried to give you the benefit of having a bad memory. Now it seems more like you are just a bold faced liar.

Mike, that is what you did. I'm a lair because you have selective memory.


The only thing you questioned me about was Elijah going to Heaven. Not once did you engage or try to engage me on Paltalk about this issue.

What? You know that's not true! Mike, who is lying now?


When I talk about knowing you before I am referring to Paltalk where we had a handful of discussions. By the time we began clashing over preterism it was on these forums and you were already embracing it.

Mike, you are lost as a potato.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 06:05 PM
Michael The Disciple, If you are not ashamed of what you believe, then publicly answer this simple question:

Do you believe this to still be a future event for us?

The coming of Jesus and resurrection of the dead saints and the catching up of those who remain is my blessed and future hope.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:07 PM
You told me that Elijah was never taken into heaven, but the sky (funny how you were particular about words when its your pet doctrines) and he was left on a mountain. You also said that you had proof because Elijah wrote a letter to the king. I then replied "what if the prophet wrote it before he was taken up?" my exact words. You don't remember? Then you have the bad memory.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:08 PM
The coming of Jesus and resurrection of the dead saints and the catching up of those who remain is my blessed and future hope.

You ain't going liar.

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 06:13 PM
I tried to give you the benefit of having a bad memory. Now it seems more like you are just a bold faced liar. The only thing you questioned me about was Elijah going to Heaven. Not once did you engage or try to engage me on Paltalk about this issue.

When I talk about knowing you before I am referring to Paltalk where we had a handful of discussions. By the time we began clashing over preterism it was on these forums and you were already embracing it.

BTW Mike Elijah did get translated. Any off date you found in the book of Chronicles came from a bad translation or bad records. It happened other times also in the book of Kings and Chronicles also.

And if you believe he was taken away to end up on a mountain to write a letter to the King, well not only did that not happen, the Bible never alluded to that, and what would be God's purpose in doing something like that for? Why would He do that? And what about Enoch? Just he walked with the Lord 365 years and he was misplaced to mount Ararat for no reason? I forgot about that candy stick of yours, thanks you jogged my memory. I notice that you talk of that one sparingly because that is all conjecture.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 06:16 PM
You told me that Elijah was never taken into heaven, but the sky (funny how you were particular about words when its your pet doctrines) and he was left on a mountain. You also said that you had proof because Elijah wrote a letter to the king. I then replied "what if the prophet wrote it before he was taken up?" my exact words. You don't remember? Then you have the bad memory.

Oh I remember that perfectly. Unlike you I am not ashamed of what I believe. I said in our previous exchange the only thing you questioned me about was Elijah. At the time of that discussion you hadn't said one word to me about not being post trib.

houston
11-21-2018, 06:17 PM
The word translated as 'heaven' in 2Kings 2 comes from the Hebrew shamayim (Strong's Concordance Number #H8064). Shamayim, plural of the original language word shameh, means the sky above us

....

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:17 PM
BTW Mike Elijah did get translated. Any off date you found in the book of Chronicles came from a bad translation or bad records. It happened other times also in the book of Kings and Chronicles also.

That's interesting, care to explain this to me? :)

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:20 PM
....

OK 1 point for Mike.

So, what exactly was the purpose for the ride in the chariot in the first place? Today your master will be taken away from you? i mean it all of a sudden makes no sense. But, I'm game, ready for the spoon feeding :)

houston
11-21-2018, 06:20 PM
“no one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven...”

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 06:20 PM
BTW Mike Elijah did get translated. Any off date you found in the book of Chronicles came from a bad translation or bad records. It happened other times also in the book of Kings and Chronicles also.

I never said he didn't get translated. I said he was translated into the sky but not into Heaven.

Jesus confirmed this in John 3:13.

And no man has ascended into Heaven except he who came down from Heaven even the son of man which is in Heaven.

If Elijah had showed up in the THRONE ROOM of Heaven Jesus would have known. He was there.

houston
11-21-2018, 06:22 PM
OK 1 point for Mike.

So, what exactly was the purpose for the ride in the chariot in the first place? Today your master will be taken away from you? i mean it all of a sudden makes no sense. But, I'm game, ready for the spoon feeding :)

I don’t have an answer for you. Quite honestly, I really don’t care to know “why?”

Esaias
11-21-2018, 06:24 PM
OK 1 point for Mike.

So, what exactly was the purpose for the ride in the chariot in the first place? Today your master will be taken away from you? i mean it all of a sudden makes no sense. But, I'm game, ready for the spoon feeding :)

I don't think he went up in a chariot, I thought he went up in a tornado? The chariot just made a fly-by?

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:28 PM
I don't think he went up in a chariot, I thought he went up in a tornado? The chariot just made a fly-by?

Yes, he was taken up in a whirlwind, but still what was the reason? Why leave behind the mantel? If he didn't cease, then he retired from being a prophet? But then comes out of retirement to write the letter? Did his student give the mantel back on loan for the epistle to be penned? Still, would like to know.

JamesGlen
11-21-2018, 06:31 PM
The coming of Jesus and resurrection of the dead saints and the catching up of those who remain is my blessed and future hope.

You ain't going liar.

Paul said his Hope was for BOTH. BOTH
It’s an event of both.
The resurrection of the just AND THE UNJUST was Paul’s hope.


Respectfully, it seems your hope is NOT the same as Paul’s.

It seems you’re attempting to change the scripture to fit your hope.

What did Paul mean when he said his Hope was also in the resurrection of the unjust ?

Acts 24:15

15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

English grammar isn’t all that complicated here, brother.

Paul’s Hope was in BOTH.
Your hope is not.


Time to re-evaluate your doctrine.

OK, I give up. Are you saying that the hope of Israel was that the unjust would have eternal life? Actually what do you believe happens to the resurrected unjust person?

You are the one basically saying that, because YOU are the one saying that Paul’s hope(of BOTH the just and unjust), was eternal life.

But Paul’s Hope was in exactly what he said it was in,(BOTH) no matter what I think his reason why is. In my opinion, it was in both because it was a fulfillment of Dan. 12:2(u asked for a ot verse), and that resurrection for the good, the bad, and the ugly meant righteous judgement for both. Again, it doesn’t matter what I think, what matters is we don’t attempt to change the scriptures to fit our doctrinal opinions.

You’re trying to send MTD to a devils hell, and you’re the one that has a different hope than the apostle Paul, remember English grammar reads BOTH unjust AND just. But your hope is not the same as his.
If I were you, I would re-evaluate my doctrine before verbally sending someone else to hell, that has the same Hope as Paul, resurrection of BOTH just AND unjust. No matter how much you supposedly “love them, but don’t like them”.




BTW, MTD, u never answered my question, I assume it’s a yes?

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 06:35 PM
I never said he didn't get translated. I said he was translated into the sky but not into Heaven.

Jesus confirmed this in John 3:13.

And no man has ascended into Heaven except he who came down from Heaven even the son of man which is in Heaven.

If Elijah had showed up in the THRONE ROOM of Heaven Jesus would have known. He was there.

So hes translated unto the second heaven until the rapture? Where is he at right now?

Esaias
11-21-2018, 06:36 PM
Yes, he was taken up in a whirlwind, but still what was the reason? Why leave behind the mantel? If he didn't cease, then he retired from being a prophet? But then comes out of retirement to write the letter? Did his student give the mantel back on loan for the epistle to be penned? Still, would like to know.

He became Prophet Emeritus like many retired preachers?

The giving of the mantel represents the prophetic ministry was given to Elisha. The letter I wouldn't think would require the mantel, since the Holy Ghost isn't stuck in a topcoat or anything like the guys on TBN seem to think. :)

I have no idea what "The Chariot Of Israel" was about, very strange. Does God have a spaceship? Or a Lincoln Continental? Or an iron age chariot?

I do however have to reconcile the Ascension of Elijah (and the Translation of Enoch) with Jesus' refutation of Jewish speculations concerning the two, and Paul's declaration that "these all died in faith" and that Jesus is firstborn of immortal humans. So I don't see how it is possible for Enoch and Elijah to be in heaven, immortal, and apparently changed, prior to Jesus' own resurrection and ascension.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:36 PM
You are the one basically saying that, because YOU are the one saying that Paul’s hope(of BOTH the just and unjust), was eternal life.

But Paul’s Hope was in exactly what he said it was in,(BOTH) no matter what I think his reason why is. In my opinion, it was in both because it was a fulfillment of Dan. 12:2(u asked for a ot verse), and that resurrection for the good, the bad, and the ugly meant righteous judgement for both. Again, it doesn’t matter what I think, what matters is we don’t attempt to change the scriptures to fit our doctrinal opinions.

You’re trying to send MTD to a devils hell, and you’re the one that has a different hope than the apostle Paul, remember English grammar reads BOTH unjust AND just. But your hope is not the same as his.
If I were you, I would re-evaluate my doctrine before verbally sending someone else to hell, that has the same Hope as Paul, resurrection of BOTH just AND unjust. No matter how much you supposedly “love them, but don’t like them”.




BTW, MTD, u never answered my question, I assume it’s a yes?



Forums never cease to prove my old dad right. Religion is the hiding place for nuts, liars, and idiots. :)

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:39 PM
He became Prophet Emeritus like many retired preachers?

The giving of the mantel represents the prophetic ministry was given to Elisha. The letter I wouldn't think would require the mantel, since the Holy Ghost isn't stuck in a topcoat or anything like the guys on TBN seem to think. :)

I have no idea what "The Chariot Of Israel" was about, very strange. Does God have a spaceship? Or a Lincoln Continental? Or an iron age chariot?

I do however have to reconcile the Ascension of Elijah (and the Translation of Enoch) with Jesus' refutation of Jewish speculations concerning the two, and Paul's declaration that "these all died in faith" and that Jesus is firstborn of immortal humans. So I don't see how it is possible for Enoch and Elijah to be in heaven, immortal, and apparently changed, prior to Jesus' own resurrection and ascension.

So, if they were made immortal was Moses immortal as well? He and Elijah showed up at the mount of transfiguration.

Esaias
11-21-2018, 06:46 PM
So, if they were made immortal was Moses immortal as well? He and Elijah showed up at the mount of transfiguration.

I do not believe they (Enoch and Elijah) were made immortal. The transfiguration was a vision showing the testimony of Law and the Prophets to Jesus as Christ, as well as a glimpse into the future resurrection glory. As a vision, it portrayed spiritual truths but does not mean Moses and Elijah were personally resurrected at that time.

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 06:47 PM
So, if they were made immortal was Moses immortal as well? He and Elijah showed up at the mount of transfiguration.

Moses died the Bible said but no one saw where God buried him. "So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. [6] And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth–peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." Why is God burying people that show back up later (well with the exception of Enoch, he's lost in translation no sign of him lately..), and I read a scripture in the NT that says "let the dead bury their dead." So are Elijah, Enoch, and Moses just wandering around somewhere in the second heaven?

Esaias where does it say that the Transfiguration was just a vision?

Esaias
11-21-2018, 06:51 PM
Moses died the Bible said but no one saw where God buried him. "So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. [6] And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth–peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." Why is God burying people that show back up, and I read a scripture in the NT that says "let the dead bury their dead." So are Elijah, Enoch, and Moses just wandering around somewhere in the second heaven?

Enoch and Elijah and Moses aren't wandering around anywhere. Although the Jews say if you hear dogs barking in the neighborhood at night it might be Elijah sneaking around... :)

Esaias
11-21-2018, 06:52 PM
Esaias where does it say that the Transfiguration was just a vision?

Matthew 17:9.

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 06:52 PM
Enoch and Elijah and Moses aren't wandering around anywhere. Although the Jews say if you hear dogs barking in the neighborhood at night it might be Elijah sneaking around... :)

Lol

Esaias
11-21-2018, 06:53 PM
My phone's about dead, I'll be back Lord willing in a little while.

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 06:54 PM
Matthew 17:9.

Well ok agreed I never seen that. Lol

My bad

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:57 PM
I do not believe they (Enoch and Elijah) were made immortal. The transfiguration was a vision showing the testimony of Law and the Prophets to Jesus as Christ, as well as a glimpse into the future resurrection glory. As a vision, it portrayed spiritual truths but does not mean Moses and Elijah were personally resurrected at that time.

Hebrews 11:5, has Enoch being changed! Thank you my dear brother. It uses the word μετατίθημι.

But Elijah is teleported to another location and is letter writing. So, we would assume he didn't get immortality. Enoch was taken by GOD, in Hebrews he is changed. Interesting, must look further into this. Thank you :thumbsup

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 06:59 PM
Well ok agreed I never seen that. Lol

My bad

You know I love you. Oh, and I like you alot :)

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 07:03 PM
I'll be back, have to go get my wife something from the store.
Hey, if I'm a Preterist does that mean since I went to the store for my wife in times past I don't have to go now? My wife is a Preterist and she says no, what was done in the past was to establish what must be done in the future.

1ofthechosen
11-21-2018, 07:25 PM
I'll be back, have to go get my wife something from the store.
Hey, if I'm a Preterist does that mean since I went to the store for my wife in times past I don't have to go now? My wife is a Preterist and she says no, what was done in the past was to establish what must be done in the future.


Tell her you went in 70 AD at the destruction of the Temple in the HOLINESS car, Chariot of the Lord while he swang down sweet Chariot stock.

mfblume
11-21-2018, 07:35 PM
This is a poll. Do you believe Jesus Christ's coming happened in 70ad? This includes that the resurrection of the dead occured at that time.

Or do you believe the second coming and the resurrection of the dead is still in the future?

A localized coming occurred for judgment alone in ad70. The resurrection and second coming is future.

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 07:46 PM
A localized coming occurred for judgment alone in ad70. The resurrection and second coming is future.

Elder Blume, you have an official thumbs up from Micheal the Disciple.:thumbsup

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 07:49 PM
Tell her you went in 70 AD at the destruction of the Temple in the HOLINESS car, Chariot of the Lord while he swang down sweet Chariot stock.

I’m already here and the place is packed. I got my daughter ice cream and my wife arugula. Why do people wait the last minute to shop.

mfblume
11-21-2018, 07:50 PM
Elder Blume, you have an official thumbs up from Micheal the Disciple.:thumbsup

Lol

Evang.Benincasa
11-21-2018, 07:52 PM
Brother TK Burk has been rushed to the hospital. Pray.

Michael The Disciple
11-21-2018, 09:10 PM
Heres my ancient thread about Elijah not going to Heaven.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=23065

Esaias
11-21-2018, 11:31 PM
Hebrews 11:5, has Enoch being changed! Thank you my dear brother. It uses the word μετατίθημι.

But Elijah is teleported to another location and is letter writing. So, we would assume he didn't get immortality. Enoch was taken by GOD, in Hebrews he is changed. Interesting, must look further into this. Thank you :thumbsup

Last week in Bible study that very question was raised, about Enoch being "translated" and what exactly the term means. I said I'll have to look into it and study it out. :)

Esaias
11-21-2018, 11:33 PM
Last week in Bible study that very question was raised, about Enoch being "translated" and what exactly the term means. I said I'll have to look into it and study it out. :)


I know brother Perkins will laugh at me for this, but here is Strong's:

Strong's Definition: From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

Esaias
11-21-2018, 11:37 PM
Where does the Bible say "Second Coming"? Why "second"?

Anyone?

1ofthechosen
11-22-2018, 12:42 AM
Heres my ancient thread about Elijah not going to Heaven.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=23065

Mike when someone great comes people name their children after them, did you ever consider that?
https://media.makeameme.org/created/im-pretty-sure-5bf65d.jpg

JamesGlen
11-22-2018, 01:02 AM
Anyone?


Heb. 9:28 , my closest answer.

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/9-28.htm

Esaias
11-22-2018, 01:04 AM
Heres my ancient thread about Elijah not going to Heaven.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=23065

Pel provided a survey of various responses to the question of the letter from Elijah on that thread, which I reproduce below:

"The grave" in the clouds for Elijah? And Moses did die and had a grave of some sort in that "God buried him..." But Moses and Elijah were seen together on the Mount with Jesus.

The passage that Mike the Diak brought up from 2 Chronicles 21:15, is one of those apparent "contradictions" that critics of the Bible like to throw around. If Elijah had left these earthly environs earlier in the story, how could he have sent "a writing" to Jehoram and Athaliah? There are many ways that this has been attempted to be worked out.

Some say that the writing was from Elisha in the name of Elijah. Since Elisha had a double portion and the the inheritance of Elijah he could speak in the name of Elijah. And since Jehoram's wife, Athaliah, was the daughter of Ahab and Jezebel, Elijah's old nemeses the letter would have had more of an impact in and showed that the power of Elijah and Elijah's God was still at work.

The notes in the Geneva Bible carry this explanation. Others, like Wesley attempt to play with the chronology a bit. Some say that this writing was prepared by Elijah before he ascended.

Some question after a transcription error, that a scribe mistakenly wrote "Elijah" when he had intended "Elisha." So many preachers make the same mistake that you could almost see the validity of this one, but it lacks any support from the manuscripts.

Since most people take the account from 1 Kings 2 as being literal they don't have Elijah walking around on earth and writing letters after those events. Malachi 4:4-6 tells us that Elijah would be sent by God before that great and dreadful day. For that reason no one in Rabbinic Judaism took 1 Kings 2 in any way other than literal and offered different explanations for the letter discussed in 2 Chronicles 21:12.

It is a common and almost universal practice among Jews to set aside an "Elijah cup" on the Seder table at Passover to symbolize their faith in his return.

Many thought John the Baptist was Elijah who had returned though John himself denied it (John 1:21). Jesus told His disciples that, "And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come..." (Matthew 11:14)apparently contradicting John's own testimony of himself.

This is why I tend to lean toward the "Elisha wrote the letter in the name of Elijah" explanation, though I am not certain. The spirit of a prophet like Elijah can be had by another - like Elisha and John the Baptist. In fact, this phenomena was believed to exist with such certainty that Elisha sought it out carefully.

The proferred solutions to the supposed discrepancy are as follows:

1. Elisha wrote the letter but lied and said it was from Elijah. This is problematic, because the Bible explicitly states (in 2 Chronicles 21:12, not 15 as erroneously reported in the Pel quote) "And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying,..." It does not say "there came a writing to him purporting to be from Elijah", but says it actually came from Elijah. If Elisha did indeed write a letter and sent it, he not only deceived the king but also the Chronicler(s) and thus the very canonicity of 2 Chronicles is thrown into question. Besides, this would mean Elisha "made a lie", albeit a supposed "pious" lie. This makes Elisha the first of the Pseudepigraphers, which puts him in the same position as the author of the Book of Enoch, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Judas, and so on and so forth. For these reasons, this proposed solution is no solution at all and ought to be rejected.

2. Chronology manipulations. This fails for obvious reasons, not least of which is that it impuned the canonicity of either 2 Chronicles, or 2 Kings - they can't BOTH be canonical if their chronologies are mutually exclusive. More to the point, though, I have yet to see a thorough comparison of the chronological data from 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles that actually provides a convincing case that any chronology even needs to be manipulated in regards to the affairs of Elijah and Elisha.

3. Prepared by Elijah before his ascension. This solution sounds nice and pat, but is actually fraught with all the difficulties of number 2 above. Again, I have not seen anyone proposing this solution who actually makes a convincing timeline using the data in Scripture.

4. Scribal error. This solution overthrows the doctrine of Divine Preservation of the Word. What else then in the Bible is "scribal error"? There are known examples of scribal and copyist errors in Bible manuscripts, but they are known because there are other manuscripts containing the correct reading, or serious internal evidence demonstrating beyond shadow of doubt that a scribal error did indeed occur. Such is not at all the case here. The "scribal error" claim rests entirely upon the wishful thinking of those who don't like the idea of Elijah writing a letter after his alleged ascension into heaven.

Pel notes that people take the ascension account literally, and therefore offer numerous "solutions" to make sure Elijah isn't walking around writing letters on earth. Thus the 2 Chronicles account becomes "problematic". Never mind the violation of simple logic (Occam, anyone?) that would seem to suggest a literal reading of 2 Chronicles and its account of a prophet writing and sending a letter to a wicked king, while reserving a "more creative solution" for 2 Kings and its admittedly more incredulous account of a prophet ascending to heaven in a tornado replete with a fiery chariot flying out of the sky, etc.

A much more simple, and rational, and dare I say Biblical approach, would be to take both accounts at face value, allowing them to say exactly what they say (and no more). Nowhere does the Bible say Elijah went to the throneroom of God, or that he became immortal, or that he was and still is floating around in Heaven today. It simply says he went up in a whirlwind and was taken from Elisha. Not that much different than Stephen being somehow caught up and taken from the Ethiopian eunuch. In Stephen's case, we have an inspired record of where he went afterwards. In Elijah's case, it does not say where he went, but we DO have an inspired record of him writing a letter and sending it to a king who in all likelihood reigned AFTER Elijah was taken away in a whirlwind.

So the simplest, most straight forward understanding, that preserves the integrity of the whole of the sacred record, is that Elijah was NOT transported to Heaven to be with the angels and God, but was simply taken from Elishah to an undisclosed location where he ceased from prophetic ministry, with the exception of a prophetic writing he sent to King Jehoram. And then at some point he died like all men do.

Esaias
11-22-2018, 01:09 AM
Heb. 9:28 , my best answer.

And it's a pretty good answer. However, the appearing the second time phraseology seems to be speaking more to the liturgy of the Day of Atonement than to anything else.

The problem I have with "second coming" terminology is that it implies there are only two.

Jesus came in the incarnation. He also came on Pentecost. He also came into His Kingdom ("coming of the Son of Man/coming of the Kingdom of God") upon his death, resurrection, and ascension. He came in judgment upon Jerusalem in AD 70. He threatens to come again to several different churches in the Revelation. That right there is at the very least FOUR comings OTHER than His incarnation, and which do NOT include the coming to resurrect the saints!

Michael The Disciple
11-22-2018, 01:12 AM
Pel provided a survey of various responses to the question of the letter from Elijah on that thread, which I reproduce below:



The proferred solutions to the supposed discrepancy are as follows:

1. Elisha wrote the letter but lied and said it was from Elijah. This is problematic, because the Bible explicitly states (in 2 Chronicles 21:12, not 15 as erroneously reported in the Pel quote) "And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying,..." It does not say "there came a writing to him purporting to be from Elijah", but says it actually came from Elijah. If Elisha did indeed write a letter and sent it, he not only deceived the king but also the Chronicler(s) and thus the very canonicity of 2 Chronicles is thrown into question. Besides, this would mean Elisha "made a lie", albeit a supposed "pious" lie. This makes Elisha the first of the Pseudepigraphers, which puts him in the same position as the author of the Book of Enoch, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Judas, and so on and so forth. For these reasons, this proposed solution is no solution at all and ought to be rejected.

2. Chronology manipulations. This fails for obvious reasons, not least of which is that it impuned the canonicity of either 2 Chronicles, or 2 Kings - they can't BOTH be canonical if their chronologies are mutually exclusive. More to the point, though, I have yet to see a thorough comparison of the chronological data from 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles that actually provides a convincing case that any chronology even needs to be manipulated in regards to the affairs of Elijah and Elisha.

3. Prepared by Elijah before his ascension. This solution sounds nice and pat, but is actually fraught with all the difficulties of number 2 above. Again, I have not seen anyone proposing this solution who actually makes a convincing timeline using the data in Scripture.

4. Scribal error. This solution overthrows the doctrine of Divine Preservation of the Word. What else then in the Bible is "scribal error"? There are known examples of scribal and copyist errors in Bible manuscripts, but they are known because there are other manuscripts containing the correct reading, or serious internal evidence demonstrating beyond shadow of doubt that a scribal error did indeed occur. Such is not at all the case here. The "scribal error" claim rests entirely upon the wishful thinking of those who don't like the idea of Elijah writing a letter after his alleged ascension into heaven.

Pel notes that people take the ascension account literally, and therefore offer numerous "solutions" to make sure Elijah isn't walking around writing letters on earth. Thus the 2 Chronicles account becomes "problematic". Never mind the violation of simple logic (Occam, anyone?) that would seem to suggest a literal reading of 2 Chronicles and its account of a prophet writing and sending a letter to a wicked king, while reserving a "more creative solution" for 2 Kings and its admittedly more incredulous account of a prophet ascending to heaven in a tornado replete with a fiery chariot flying out of the sky, etc.

A much more simple, and rational, and dare I say Biblical approach, would be to take both accounts at face value, allowing them to say exactly what they say (and no more). Nowhere does the Bible say Elijah went to the throneroom of God, or that he became immortal, or that he was and still is floating around in Heaven today. It simply says he went up in a whirlwind and was taken from Elisha. Not that much different than Stephen being somehow caught up and taken from the Ethiopian eunuch. In Stephen's case, we have an inspired record of where he went afterwards. In Elijah's case, it does not say where he went, but we DO have an inspired record of him writing a letter and sending it to a king who in all likelihood reigned AFTER Elijah was taken away in a whirlwind.

So the simplest, most straight forward understanding, that preserves the integrity of the whole of the sacred record, is that Elijah was NOT transported to Heaven to be with the angels and God, but was simply taken from Elijah to an undisclosed location where he ceased from prophetic ministry, with the exception of a prophetic writing he sent to King Jehoram. And then at some point he died like all men do.

Exactly!

Michael The Disciple
11-22-2018, 01:23 AM
preterist archive

Unless Jesus' body had been resurrected, His disciples would have had no assurance that His soul had been to Hades and had been resurrected.

They all knew his soul had been to Hades. Hades is Greek for Hebrew "Sheol". Jews understood that everyone who died went to Sheol, both man and beast.

Psalms 49:

12Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

13This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.

14Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

15But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

All 3 times in these verses the word grave is SHEOL.....Greek Hades. It was rightly translated "grave" all 3 times. Even sheep go to Sheol when they die, so the resurrection of Jesus was not to prove to the disciples he had been to Hades. They all knew that.

Those of us who have trusted Christ in the New Covenant age, have life and do not need to be resurrected.

Thats funny. Paul was in the new covenant age yet he looked forward to the resurrection of the dead!

Phil 3:10

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

The more this doctrine is examined the worse it gets. Strip away the immortal soul heresy and it has nothing to stand on.

houston
11-22-2018, 01:24 AM
Excellent, Esaias!

Esaias
11-22-2018, 01:35 AM
Prior to and during Jesus' ministry and up to the destruction of the Temple, Judaism was rife with speculative theories and beliefs concerning heavenly visitors and intermediaries. Three characters stand out as generating the most interest: Enoch, Elijah, and the "Son of Man" character in Daniel's vision (ch 7). There was some speculation concerning Moses, Jeremiah, or one of the other prophets, but Enoch, Elijah, and the mysterious Son of Man were the most talked about and thought about.

The primary streams of thought were these:

1. Elijah went to heaven where he awaits. Just prior to the coming of Messiah, Elijah will return from heaven to inaugurate and announce the imminent coming of Messiah.

2. Enoch went to heaven where he awaits. Some speculated that Enoch came back from heaven and was known as Elijah the prophet, who upon completing his mission went back to heaven, and just prior to the coming of Messiah Enoch/Elijah will return. Others speculated that Enoch might in fact BE the Messiah who was to come.

3. The Son of Man in Daniel 7 was a heavenly intermediary being, a superior archangel. Speculation eventually named this character "Metatron" and identified it as the Angel of Jehovah from the Pentateuch. Speculation also identified this Son of Man/Metatron/Archangelic Being/Second Power in Heaven/Angel of the Presence with Enoch.

All these speculative beliefs concerned someobody ascending up into heaven, receiving divine mysteries, and then coming back at some point to bring those mysteries to Israel and deliver Israel from all enemies.

These Jewish myths were in fact a danger to the early church, as many of the Judaizers who were subverting the early Christians weren't just run of the mill Pharisees, but Essene and Enochite gnostic speculative Jewish cults. It was out of this bizarre milieu that Gnosticism arose, both Jewish and Christian, and some of the Metatron mysteries were adapted into what would become the trinitarian doctrine. This is why Jewish kaballists will admit that trinitarianism is Jewish, straight from the kaballah, which in turn is based on early first century and earlier Jewish "Son of Man" speculations.

The apostle John especially dealt with these subversives, and refuted them in his Gospel and in his epistles. He begins his Gospel with a declaration that the memra ("Logos", or Word) was not only in the beginning with God, but WAS God, and that this Logos became flesh and was known as "the Son of God" (ie Jesus). This identifies Jesus as superior to Metatron, Enoch, Elijah, etc because He is the very Word incarnate, He is Jehovah Himself in flesh.

John also records the Baptist's denial that he was Elijah or "that prophet" (mentioned by Moses in Deut 18:15-18). This was to show that Elijah had not in fact personally returned from heaven, but rather a prophet sent by God ("My Messenger" from Malachi's prophecy) had arrived in the person of John the Baptist.

Then, in chapter 3, John records a discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus concerning spiritual truths and the need for regeneration. Most Bibles have the majority of the chapter in red letter, suggesting most of the chapter is part of Jesus' speech to Nicodemus, but the Greek manuscripts have no red letter editions. In other words, not all that is in red letters in that chapter is necessarily the words of Jesus to Nicodemus. Verses 13-21 may very well be commentary and teaching by the apostle concerning the importance of faith in Jesus as the Christ. In any event, verse 13 declares explicitly that "no man hath ascended into heaven except he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven."

This does several things. It speaks of men ascending to heaven, and coming down from heaven, and it speaks to the issue of "the son of man in heaven". The Son of Man who is in heaven when John wrote His Gospel was none other than Jesus Christ Himself. THIS is the ONLY man who has ascended into heaven. He is the one who came down from heaven. So all Jewish speculation concerning Enoch ascending to heaven, being the Son of Man in Heaven mentioned by Daniel, coming back from heaven for Messianic missionary purposes, or the same speculations concerning Elijah, are all refuted and denied by the apostle. Ascending to heaven, coming from heaven, being the son of Man in heaven, etc, are all referred to JESUS CHRIST ALONE. Thus, the Jewish myths are denied and refuted.

Now, that being the case, it necessarily follows that there is no need to hold on to Jewish myths about Enoch or Elijah floating around up in heaven, as so many Christians do nowadays.

Michael The Disciple
11-22-2018, 01:41 AM
Prior to and during Jesus' ministry and up to the destruction of the Temple, Judaism was rife with speculative theories and beliefs concerning heavenly visitors and intermediaries. Three characters stand out as generating the most interest: Enoch, Elijah, and the "Son of Man" character in Daniel's vision (ch 7). There was some speculation concerning Moses, Jeremiah, or one of the other prophets, but Enoch, Elijah, and the mysterious Son of Man were the most talked about and thought about.

The primary streams of thought were these:

1. Elijah went to heaven where he awaits. Just prior to the coming of Messiah, Elijah will return from heaven to inaugurate and announce the imminent coming of Messiah.

2. Enoch went to heaven where he awaits. Some speculated that Enoch came back from heaven and was known as Elijah the prophet, who upon completing his mission went back to heaven, and just prior to the coming of Messiah Enoch/Elijah will return. Others speculated that Enoch might in fact BE the Messiah who was to come.

3. The Son of Man in Daniel 7 was a heavenly intermediary being, a superior archangel. Speculation eventually named this character "Metatron" and identified it as the Angel of Jehovah from the Pentateuch. Speculation also identified this Son of Man/Metatron/Archangelic Being/Second Power in Heaven/Angel of the Presence with Enoch.

All these speculative beliefs concerned someobody ascending up into heaven, receiving divine mysteries, and then coming back at some point to bring those mysteries to Israel and deliver Israel from all enemies.

These Jewish myths were in fact a danger to the early church, as many of the Judaizers who were subverting the early Christians weren't just run of the mill Pharisees, but Essene and Enochite gnostic speculative Jewish cults. It was out of this bizarre milieu that Gnosticism arose, both Jewish and Christian, and some of the Metatron mysteries were adapted into what would become the trinitarian doctrine. This is why Jewish kaballists will admit that trinitarianism is Jewish, straight from the kaballah, which in turn is based on early first century and earlier Jewish "Son of Man" speculations.

The apostle John especially dealt with these subversives, and refuted them in his Gospel and in his epistles. He begins his Gospel with a declaration that the memra ("Logos", or Word) was not only in the beginning with God, but WAS God, and that this Logos became flesh and was known as "the Son of God" (ie Jesus). This identifies Jesus as superior to Metatron, Enoch, Elijah, etc because He is the very Word incarnate, He is Jehovah Himself in flesh.

John also records the Baptist's denial that he was Elijah or "that prophet" (mentioned by Moses in Deut 18:15-18). This was to show that Elijah had not in fact personally returned from heaven, but rather a prophet sent by God ("My Messenger" from Malachi's prophecy) had arrived in the person of John the Baptist.

Then, in chapter 3, John records a discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus concerning spiritual truths and the need for regeneration. Most Bibles have the majority of the chapter in red letter, suggesting most of the chapter is part of Jesus' speech to Nicodemus, but the Greek manuscripts have no red letter editions. In other words, not all that is in red letters in that chapter is necessarily the words of Jesus to Nicodemus. Verses 13-21 may very well be commentary and teaching by the apostle concerning the importance of faith in Jesus as the Christ. In any event, verse 13 declares explicitly that "no man hath ascended into heaven except he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven."

This does several things. It speaks of men ascending to heaven, and coming down from heaven, and it speaks to the issue of "the son of man in heaven". The Son of Man who is in heaven when John wrote His Gospel was none other than Jesus Christ Himself. THIS is the ONLY man who has ascended into heaven. He is the one who came down from heaven. So all Jewish speculation concerning Enoch ascending to heaven, being the Son of Man in Heaven mentioned by Daniel, coming back from heaven for Messianic missionary purposes, or the same speculations concerning Elijah, are all refuted and denied by the apostle. Ascending to heaven, coming from heaven, being the son of Man in heaven, etc, are all referred to JESUS CHRIST ALONE. Thus, the Jewish myths are denied and refuted.

Now, that being the case, it necessarily follows that there is no need to hold on to Jewish myths about Enoch or Elijah floating around up in heaven, as so many Christians do nowadays.

:highfive

Esaias
11-22-2018, 02:13 AM
Now, let's look at the Enoch thing. Was Enoch transported up to heaven never to die? If that is true, then we have a major problem.

Jesus is the first human to be made immortal, He is not only the firstborn from the dead but He is the firstfruits of the resurrection. This means others come after Him, participating likewise in resurrection to immortality. Now, the very idea of "firstfruits" means that which comes first. If Christ is the firstfruits, then there are none before Him, including Enoch.

Some may say "but Enoch did not resurrect, He was simply changed and became immortal!" Yet Paul says this:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paul taught that the resurrection to immortality isn't so much about coming out of a grave but about transitioning from mortal to immortal. Not all would sleep (experience physical death) but ALL would be changed. This change is from mortal to immortal. THAT is what the doctrine of the "resurrection" focuses on. Not so much coming out of a grave or cemetary, but coming out of the condition of being mortal and coming into the condition of being immortal, or not subject to death. If Enoch was taken so that he would not die, and is alive today, then he was CHANGED FROM MORTAL TO IMMORTAL, it would necessarily mean he experienced the resurrection to immortality.

But again, notice the order:

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

NOBODY resurrects or transitions to immortality prior to Christ! He is the firstfruits, not Enoch! And, all those who are Christ's will likewise transition to immortality AT HIS COMING. This completely rules out any possibility of Enoch being immortal prior to the coming of the Lord to resurrect the saints.

Paul himself wrote about Enoch:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Did Paul not know his doctrine? Did he not realise he had already refuted the notion of an immortal Enoch in his earlier letter to the Corinthians? Or else, why didn't he mention the Enoch Exception to the Corinthians? "Christ the firstfruits - well not really, because Enoch made it long before, but..."

In Hebrews chapter 11, he gives a list of Old Testament saints who serve as examples of pious faith. He concludes the list with this statement:

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Not only did they ALL die, but NONE of them had received the promises during their lifetime, namely the promises of immortality and glory. Some might try to limit "these all died" to the people in verse 12, which would limit the statement only to the Covenanted descendants of Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob). But this is problematic, because not all of those people died IN FAITH. Probably the larger bulk of them were routine apostates, idolaters, extortioners, fornicators, adulterers, etc. Just read the Old Testament and tell me you believe ALL of Abraham's physical descendants "died IN FAITH"?

No, rather, THESE (these examples of faith, remember, that's the purpose of the whole chapter) "all died". That would include Enoch. So what's this about him being translated that he might not see death?

First, we know he died, because Paul explicitly said so. Second, we know he did not become immortal because Paul explicitly said Christ is the first and those who belong to Christ become immortal at His coming, not anytime before. So we have to keep that in mind, and whatever conclusion we come to must not violate those two a priori truths.

He was "translated". I posted earlier the Strong's entry for that word, and it literally means to be transported or transferred. So he was transported (like Elijah, and like Stephen). He was transported for the purpose of escaping death. Yet, remember, he eventually dies at some point, we've already established that. So how does one get transported to escape death, and yet die later on? Obviously, the transporting is not a transporting to heaven to avoid death altogether. Rather it must be a relocation from one location to another, in order to avoid being killed.


What were the conditions like in Enoch's day?

Enoch bare Methuselah, and Methuselah bare Lamech, and Lamech bare Noah. There are just three generations from Enoch to Noah and the Flood. In Noah's day it was literally so bad God decided to kill EVERYONE. We can conclude then it was likely pretty bad in Enoch's day as well, though perhaps not quite so bad as in Noah's day. Consider, it is nowhere near as bad nowadays as it was in Noah's day, even though it is pretty bad as it is.

So there is no reason to think Enoch, being a man who "walked with God", wasn't hated by his contemporaries, who were sinking into idolatry, wickedness, and evil. It is likely that Enoch was a preacher of righteousness like Noah would later become. In any event, he was a righteous man. and righteous men in the midst of evil and corrupted society are often subject to being martyred and murdered. It may very well be that God provided a miraculous escape for Enoch, and spared him from a horrible, suffering death at the hands of wicked men.

The text in Genesis says this:

Genesis 5:23-24 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: (24) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


It doesn't say WHERE God took him. It just says he lived 365 years, and was gone, taken by God. Where? Who knows? Notice, it also says "all the days of Enoch were 365 years." That would be simply and categorically untrue if Enoch went to heaven and lived happily ever after...

Esaias
11-22-2018, 03:14 AM
I'll be back, have to go get my wife something from the store.
Hey, if I'm a Preterist does that mean since I went to the store for my wife in times past I don't have to go now? My wife is a Preterist and she says no, what was done in the past was to establish what must be done in the future.

You will be going to the store all your life, it will extend across your entire sojourn here on earth. :)

Esaias
11-22-2018, 03:20 AM
I'm not sure I'm the one to explain that. By judicial change I mean a change in God's arrangement of things. Prior, everyone slept in death. In AD70 the Levitical Old Covenant system was completely ended and the New Covenant system was fully operational. So, no more soul sleep.

Again, I'm not a preterist so I don't feel too comfortable examining preterism, I'd rather an actual preterist do so.

I meant to say "I don't feel too comfortable EXPLAINING preterism..." Stupid Android spell check autocorrect NSA grammar nazis! :spit

houston
11-22-2018, 03:31 AM
Still up, or woke?

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 04:33 AM
It doesn't say WHERE God took him. It just says he lived 365 years, and was gone, taken by God. Where? Who knows? Notice, it also says "all the days of Enoch were 365 years." That would be simply and categorically untrue if Enoch went to heaven and lived happily ever after...

It is interesting that we have a date of years for Enoch. 365. Enoch was taken by God? We don't know where God took Enoch doesn't help, because we are told that he never died. Period. That is the place where we have to work from. So he never died, and if he wasn't immortal, then what actually happened to him? He wasn't walking around as Jewish mythology believes. So, what happened to him was immortality? Was being taken into Heaven. Then the Bible is trying to say something else.

Esaias
11-22-2018, 04:39 AM
It is interesting that we have a date of years for Enoch. 365. Enoch was taken by God? We don't know where God took Enoch doesn't help, because we are told that he never died. Period. That is the place where we have to work from. So he never died, and if he wasn't immortal, then what actually happened to him? He wasn't walking around as Jewish mythology believes. So, what happened to him was immortality? Was being taken into Heaven. Then the Bible is trying to say something else.

Who says "Enoch never died"? Because I cannot find the verse that actually says that.

Esaias
11-22-2018, 04:41 AM
Had someone once suggest to me that Enoch was "translated" into the Great Pyramid of Giza... :)

Esaias
11-22-2018, 04:51 AM
Still up, or woke?



Fixing to take a nap. My hours are completely messed up. My circadian rhythms are running on a 16 track syncopated mixer. :heeheehee

houston
11-22-2018, 05:23 AM
Fixing to take a nap. My hours are completely messed up. My circadian rhythms are running on a 16 track syncopated mixer. :heeheehee

I was up for almost 2 whole days. Slept a few hours yesterday. Was hoping I’d be able to sleep. Nope.

Amanah
11-22-2018, 06:06 AM
I go to sleep listening to preaching via Utube, it puts my mind in a good place.

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 06:06 AM
I know brother Perkins will laugh at me for this, but here is Strong's:

Strong's Definition: From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

The word is used in the figurative as in Hebrews 7:12, and Jude 1:4. Especially Jude 1:4. Because it is speaking of changing something into something else. If it wasn't immortality, and it wasn't going into heaven. What was Enoch changed into by God taking him? That has to be answered. Because a lot of rapture ready folks are losing their first raptured individual.

I would like to mention ἁρπάζω and its Latin counterpart rapiō. Both verbs are speaking of force. It is used in John 10:12, we know that the wolf doesn't rapture the sheep he "attacks" We find Matthew 11:12 ἁρπάζουσιν is used to describe the violent laying claim to the Kingdom of heavens advance. When we read 1 Thessalonians 4:17 because of the English wording we are led to believe that those who were alive at the time of the "change" were lifted off the earth to the sky or heaven. Now with Enoch not going anywhere, and Elijah not going anywhere, gets a couple of wheels turning. Thank you Mike The Disciple.

But back to reality, 1 Thessalonians 4:15 "we are telling you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died." This was an issue with the early church for saints were obviously believing that those who had died were might not have eternal life. Paul brings this up in 1 Corinthians 15:13 explain to the Diaspora Judeans and Romans of Corinth that there were those who were claiming that there was no resurrection, if so then there is no Christianity. in 1 Thessalonians he revisits this thought and explains what would happen to the LIVING. The wouldn't have the change first, the dead "sleepers" would have the change. 1 Corinthians 15:51, all those who took part in the old world, the old system, at the last trumpet of that system the sleepers would awake and become eternal. Those Judean Apostolics and Roman Apostolics who were living with be transformed eternal never to go to the sleep of death. As would it be for all those who inherited the new world. Which isn't the Jehovah Witness green grass and tigers eating apples. But the Spiritual Kingdom were we were to do far greater things and dominate the World.

The closer look at Elijah, and Enoch I believe is the key here. Elisha describes the event "the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof" fire is cleansing and the term the chariot of Israel and the horsemen, mean war, battle Isaiah 5:28, Isaiah 66:15, Jeremiah 4:13. Whirlwind is where God speaks when He is upset on an issue, Job 38:1, Psalm 58:9, Psalm 77:18, Nahum 1:3, Isaiah 40:24, Ezekiel 1:4, Jeremiah 23:19, Jeremiah 30:23, Proverbs 1:27, Proverbs 10:25, Hosea 4:19, Hosea 8:7, and Zechariah 7:14.

What is interesting to note here is that the chariot's purpose was to separate the two prophets from each other 2 Kings 2:11.

This story has two symbols of war, and the wrath of God, and Elijah is the main object in the event. Not saying that he is being judged, or under God's wrath. Because we have zero being told us that this is a judgement, but that it is a separation between the two prophets. Elijah didn't go to heaven, fine in Thessoloians no one is being transporter no higher than the heights of their heads "meet the Lord in the air. In a cloud? A cloud by the way which not only indicated His presence but met Moses Aaron and Miriam at the doorway of the tent of meeting Numbers 12:5. To understand the Elijah mash up we need to look further into this.

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 06:19 AM
Who says "Enoch never died"? Because I cannot find the verse that actually says that.

Hebrews 11:5 says that Enoch was translated, or changed.

Or could be said within the context of the verse and Genesis 5, that Enoch was taken somewhere else? The day of the Resurrection? Did God take Enoch to the day of the change between sleeping and awakening? I once entertained that idea, but I haven't a clue how that would be Biblically provable. But, Hebrews 11:5 states these facts, God took Enoch. Enoch didn't see death, or simply didn't die. God took him, God him took what? :heeheehee

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 06:22 AM
I go to sleep listening to preaching via Utube, it puts my mind in a good place.

Sleep requires silence, if you are listening to music, white noise, rain, pitter patter, thunderstorm, wind, and the rest of the mood music. You aren't actually going into deep sleep.

Esaias
11-22-2018, 07:07 AM
The word is used in the figurative as in Hebrews 7:12, and Jude 1:4. Especially Jude 1:4. Because it is speaking of changing something into something else. If it wasn't immortality, and it wasn't going into heaven. What was Enoch changed into by God taking him? That has to be answered. Because a lot of rapture ready folks are loosing their first raptured individual.



Slight digression to a related word follows. Back on topic next post.

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

G3179
μεθίστημι: causal, in pres. and impf., fut. and aor. 1,
I
1. place in another way, change, τοι ταῦτα μεταστήσω I will change thee this present, i. e. give another instead, Od. 4.612; μ. τὰ νόμιμα πάντα Hdt. 1.65; ὄνομα, τύχην, E. Ba. 296, Heracl. 935; τὸ μέγα εἰς οὐδὲν χρόνος μ. Id. Fr. 304 (lyr.); μ. νόμους X. HG 5.4.64; ταύτην τὴν πολιτείαν Pl. R. 562c; ἐκ τοῦ παρόντος κόσμου τὴν πόλιν μεταστήσας Th. 8.48; ἐς ὀλιγαρχίαν μ. [τὴν πολιτείαν ] X. HG 2.3.24; ἐξ ὀλιγαρχίας ἐς τὸ δημοκρατεῖσθαι μ. τοὺς Βυζαντίους ib. 4.8.27; τὰ ἐκεῖ πάντα πρὸς Λακεδαιμονίους ib. 2.2.5; also ἐκ τῆς καθεστηκυίας ἄλλην μ. [πολιτείαν ] introduce a new polity, Arist. Pol. 1301b8; μ. βασιλείαν ἀντὶ τυραννίδος Pl. 319d.
2. c. gen. partit., οὐ μεθίστησι τοῦ χρώματος he changes [nothing] of his colour, Ar. Eq. 398 (lyr.).
II of persons,
1. set free, τινὰ νόσου S. Ph. 463; κακῶν, πόνων, E. Hel. 1442, IT 991, cf. 775; ὕπνου Id. Or. 133.
2. remove by killing, αὑτόν J. AJ 18.6.2: so in Med., τὸν ἄνθρωπον ib. 18.9.5.
3. remove from one place to another, Th. 4.57; ὠστράκιζον καὶ μεθίστασαν ἐκ τῆς πόλεως Arist. Pol. 1284a21; ἐς ἄλλην χθόνα μ. πόδα E. Ba. 49: — aor. 1 Med. μεταστήσασθαι remove from oneself or from one's presence, Hdt. 1.89, 8.101, And. 1.12, Th. 1.79; banish, Aeschin. 3.129; μ. φρουρὰς ἐκ πόλεων Plb. 18.44.4. Pass., with aor. 1 μετεστάθην [ᾰ ] E. El. 1202 (lyr.), D. 26.6, also aor. 2, pf., and plpf. Act.:
I of persons,
1. stand among or in the midst of, c. dat., ἑτάροισι μεθίστατο Il. 5.514.
2. change one's position, τυράννοις ἐκποδὼν μεθίστασο make way for them, E. Ph. 40; depart, παλαιὸν εἰς ἴχνος A. Supp. 538 (lyr.); ἐκ τῆς τάξιος Hdt. 9.58; ἐκ τυραννικοῦ κύκλου S. Aj. 750; ἔξω τῆς οἰκουμένης Aeschin. 3.165; ἐκ φωτὸς εἰς σκότος μ. Pl. R. 518a: c. gen., δεῦρ' Ἰωλκίας χθονός E. Med. 551; θρόνων Id. Ph. 75; μ. φυγῇ Id. Med. 1295: abs., μετάσταθ', ἀπόβαθι S. OC 162 (lyr.), cf. D. 23.69; ὅταν μεταστῇ [ὄλβος ] S. Fr. 646.6.
3. c. gen. rei, change, cease from, κότου A. Eu. 900; ξηρῶν τρόπων Ar. V. 1451 (lyr.), cf. Pl. 365; λύπης, κακῶν, E. Alc. 1122, Hel. 856; μ. βίου die, Id. Alc. 21 (also μ. alone, J. AJ 17.4.2, Plu. 2.1104c; ἑκὼν μ. commit suicide, Vett. Val.94.9); μ. φρενῶν change from one's former mind, change one's mind, E. Ba. 944.
4. go over to another party, revolt, Th. 1.35, etc.; ἀπό τινος Id. 8.76; παρά or πρός τινα, Id. 1.107, 130.
5. to be banished, ὑπό τινων D. 26.6.
II
1. of things, change, alter, either for the better, τῆς τύχης εὖ μετεστεώσης Hdt. 1.118; ἐς τὸ λῷον.. μεθέστηκεν κέαρ E. Med. 911; or for the worse, ἐξ ἧς [πολιτείας] ἡ ὀλιγαρχία μετέστη from which oligarchy arose by a change, Pl. R. 553e, cf. X. HG 2.3.24, Arist. Pol. 1301a22, Plb. 6.9.10; εἴ τι μὴ δαίμων.. μεθέστηκε στρατῷ hath changed for them, A. Pers. 158 (troch.); νέος μεθέστηκ' ἐκ γέροντος E. Heracl. 796.
2. Medic., of pains, change position, εἰς τὴν ἄνω χώραν Gal. 16.652.

The word also occurs in the Greek (LXX) of Judges:

Judges 7:5 And [went down the people] to the water. And the LORD said to Gideon, All who ever laps with his tongue of the water as if [should lap the dog], you shall stand him alone. And all who ever bends upon his knees to drink, you shall remove him by himself.

(According to the Apostolic Bible Polyglot, and also per Rahlf's LXX Coded With Strong's. However, Rahlf's LXX (without the Strong's numbering) is missing the last part of the verse. Brenton's also seems to be missing the last half of the verse.)

It is also here:

Judges 9:29 And would that this people were under my hand! then would I remove Abimelech, and I would say to him, Multiply thy host, and come out.

The LXX (Rahlf's) reads:

καὶ τίς δῴη τὸν λαὸν τοῦτον ἐν χειρί μου; καὶ μεταστήσω τὸν Αβιμελεχ καὶ ἐρῶ πρὸς αὐτόν Πλήθυνον τὴν δύναμίν σου καὶ ἔξελθε.

It is in numerous other LXX Old Testament passages, and generally when used of persons is used to mean a removal or transporting from one location or position to another. It does occur in several verses in the Pentateuch in reference to "changing the heart", as when the spies came back with a bad report and "changed the heart" of the people, but I think this can be explained as a metaphor for the heart being moved from a place of bravery and faith to a place of cowardice and fear, and not so much as the heart being transformed from one thing to another (after all, the heart was still the heart, it was just in a different "place").

It is definitely NOT used, as far as I can tell, of Enoch himself.

It's uses in the New Testament are similar to its uses in the LXX:

Luk 16:4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.

Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Act 19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Those are all the occurrences of the word in the New Testament.

The word in Hebrews, however, is slightly different. (see my next post)

Esaias
11-22-2018, 07:08 AM
(cont)
The word in Hebrews, however, is slightly different.

G3346
μετατίθημι,
fut. - θήσω: — Med., fut. - θήσομαι D. 19.341:
I place among, τῷ κ' οὔ τι τόσον κέλαδον μετέθηκε (v.l. μεθέηκεν) then he would not have caused so much noise among us, Od. 18.402.
II place differently,
1 in local sense, transpose, change the place of, τὰ αἰδοῖα εἰς τὸ πρόσθεν Pl. Smp. 191b; εἰς βελτίω τόπον Id. Lg. 903d; μ. τὰς θύρας PSI 5.546.5 (iii B. C.); μετέθηκεν αὐτὸν (sc. τὸν Ἑνώχ) ὁ θεός LXX Gen_5:24 : — Pass., Arist. Int. 20b10; to be transferred, OGI 338.20 (Pergam., ii B. C.), Act_7:16, etc.
2. in Logic, μ. τὸ συμπέρασμα alter a conclusion to its contrary, Arist. APr. 59b1.
3. change, alter, of a treaty, μεταθεῖναι ὅπῃ ἂν δοκῇ ἀμφοτέροις Foed. ap. Th. 5.18; τὸ νυνδὴ ῥηθέν Pl. Plt. 297e, cf. X. Mem. 3.14.6; μ. τινὰ ἐς πτηνὴν φύσιν AP 11.367 (Jul.); ἐπὶ ὑὸς τὰς ἐπωνυμίας μ. change their names and call them after swine, Hdt. 5.68; substitute, προφάσεις ἀντὶ τῶν ἀληθῶν ψευδεῖς μ. D. 18.225, cf. Pl. Lg. 683b (Pass.); correct, τοὺς ἠγνοηκότας Plb. 1.67.5; but, pervert, μετ έθηκεν αὐτὸν ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ LXX 3 Ki. 20(21).25.
4. Med., change what is one's own or for oneself, μ. τὰ εἰρημένα X. Mem. 4.2.18; νόμους ib. 4.4.14; τὴν δόξαν D. 18.229; τὸν τρόπον Id. 19.341; τοὔνομα Arist. Fr. 549; ὀνόματα change the use of words, Epicur. Nat. 95 G. (also in Act., Nat. 28.5); [ τὸ νόμισμα ] Arist. Pol. 1257b11: abs., change one's opinion, retract, Pl. R. 345b, etc.; μεταθέσθω let him change his mind, Men. Pk. 48; also in political sense, change sides, μεταθέσθαι πρὸς τὴν Ῥωμαίων αἵρεσιν Plb. 24.9.6; Dionysius of Heraclea, who went over from the Stoics to the Cyrenaics, was called μεταθέμενος, turn-coat, D.L. 7.37, 166; μ. ἀπὸ τῶν πατρίων LXX 2Ma_7:24; ἐξ ἀδικίας Corn. ND 11. τὴν γνώμην μετατίθεσθαι change to or adopt a new opinion, Hdt. 7.18 (but τῆς γνώμης μ. change from.., App. BC 3.29); μετέθου λύσσαν ἄρτι σωφρονῶν thou hast changed to madness, E. Or. 254; μ. τὸ ὄνομα τὸ νῦν ἀπὸ τῶν αἰγῶν adopted their present name, Paus. 7.26.3. μ. [τὸν φόβον ] transfer one's fear, D. 18.177; τῇ μισθαρνίᾳ ταῦτα μετατιθέμενος τὰ ὀνόματα transferring.., ib.284. c. inf., μ. ἀντὶ τοῦ ἀπλήστως.. ἔχοντος βίου τὸν κοσμίως.. ἔχοντα βίον ἑλέσθαι change one's mind and determine to choose.., Pl. Grg. 493c. c. dupl. acc., τὸ κείνων κακὸν τῷδε κέρδος μ. turning their misdeeds into his gain, S. Ph. 515 (lyr.).
5. Pass., to be changed, alter, μετετέθην εὐβουλίᾳ E. IA 388 (troch.); μ. ἐς Ῥωμαίους pass over, App. Hisp. 17; μ. ἀπὸ τοῦ καλέσαντος ὑμᾶς are turned away from.., Gal_1:6.

This term IS used in the LXX of Genesis in regard to Enoch. It also occurs in Deut 22:7 (removing boundaries), 1 Kings 21:25 (Jezebel "altered" her husband to do evil, ie moved him to do evil, per ABP, verse missing from Rahlf's and Brenton), Psalm 46:2 (mountains being removed into the sea), Proverbs 23:10 ("remove" not the ancient landmarks), Isaiah 29:14 (twice, both in reference to "removing" the people from the land), Isaiah 29:17 (Lebanon being "transposed" as the mountains of Carmel), Jeremiah 52:27-30 (per ABP, but Brenton and Rahlf's not present: Judah being "transferred" from the land by Babylon, referenced multiple times), and Hosea 5:10 (removing boundaries).

Isaiah 29:17 is the strongest evidence of the word being used to a transformation of something into something else, but that is still debatable, as Lebanon becoming as Carmel could be understood as Lebanon being moved from one position or characteristic to another, hence the ABP uses the term "transpose" rather than "transform". Transpose means to cross from one position to another, whereas transform means to cross from one form to another. 1 Kings 21:25 has Jezebel "altering" her husband to do evil, which may be understood as Jezebel "moving her husband's heart" to do evil, moving it from one metaphorial "place" to another, bad "place", rather than her causing his heart to undergo a transformative change. In reference to the heart, it is difficult to be dogmatic because such language is clearly metaphorical.

But in reference to actual persons, the word seems always to refer to actual change of location, or change of position, rather than change of nature. In other words, there is no idea of "metamorphosis" involved.

In the New Testament, it is found in Acts 7:16 (people being "carried over" to Sychem), Galatians 1:6 (being "removed" from God to another Gospel), Hebrews 7:12 (the "changing" of the priesthood, requiring the "transposition" - metathesis - of the law), Hebrews 11:5 (the verse in question), and Jude 4 ("turning" the grace of God into lasciviousness).

Of these 5 cases, 2 clearly refer to a change of location or position, one refers to a transfer of priesthood from Levitical to Melchizedekian (NOT that the Levites are changed into Melchizedek priests, but that the priesthood office has been transferred from that of Aaron to that of Melchizedek, in other words the priestly office has been MOVED from one group to another), and one (Jude) is disputable as to whether it literally means the grace of God has been transformed into lasciviousness, or whether it means the grace of God has been moved or transferred to lasciviousness. On this last point here is Gill:

turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness; not the love and favour of God, as in his own heart, or as shed abroad in the hearts of others; for that can never, be turned to such a purpose, it always working in a contrary way; nor the principle of grace wrought in the soul, which being of a spiritual nature, lusteth against the flesh, and cannot be turned into it; more likely the goodness of God in his providential dispensations, which is despised by some, and abused by others; but rather the doctrine of grace, which though lasciviousness is not in its nature, nor has it any natural tendency to it, yet wicked men turn or transfer it from its original nature, design, and use, to a foreign one: and they may be said to turn it into lasciviousness, either by asserting it to be a licentious doctrine, when it is not; or by treating it in a wanton and ludicrous manner, scoffing at it, and lampooning it; or by making the doctrine of grace universal, extending it equally alike to all mankind, and thereby harden and encourage men in sin,

So, I would say that the grammar of the term is not in itself conclusive, certainly not conclusively in favour of a transformation or change of Enoch from mortal to immortal. In 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, the word for "changed" that Paul uses to describe changing from mortal to immortal is αλλαγησομεθα. That Paul did NOT use this word in speaking of Enoch is pretty strong evidence that Paul did not have in mind the idea that Enoch was himself changed in any fundamental sense. Rather, as the word is elsewhere used, it seems Paul is saying that Enoch was transported or moved.

Esaias
11-22-2018, 07:22 AM
Hebrews 11:5 says that Enoch was translated, or changed.

Or could be said within the context of the verse and Genesis 5, that Enoch was taken somewhere else? The day of the Resurrection? Did God take Enoch to the day of the change between sleeping and awakening? I once entertained that idea, but I haven't a clue how that would be Biblically provable. But, Hebrews 11:5 states these facts, God took Enoch. Enoch didn't see death, or simply didn't die. God took him, God him took what? :heeheehee

I don't believe in time travel.

:heeheehee

Esaias
11-22-2018, 07:23 AM
The closer look at Elijah, and Enoch I believe is the key here. Elisha describes the event "the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof" fire is cleansing and the term the chariot of Israel and the horsemen, mean war, battle Isaiah 5:28, Isaiah 66:15, Jeremiah 4:13. Whirlwind is where God speaks when He is upset on an issue, Job 38:1, Psalm 58:9, Psalm 77:18, Nahum 1:3, Isaiah 40:24, Ezekiel 1:4, Jeremiah 23:19, Jeremiah 30:23, Proverbs 1:27, Proverbs 10:25, Hosea 4:19, Hosea 8:7, and Zechariah 7:14.

What is interesting to note here is that the chariot's purpose was to separate the two prophets from each other 2 Kings 2:11.

This story has two symbols of war, and the wrath of God, and Elijah is the main object in the event. Not saying that he is being judged, or under God's wrath. Because we have zero being told us that this is a judgement, but that it is a separation between the two prophets. Elijah didn't go to heaven, fine in Thessoloians no one is being transporter no higher than the heights of their heads "meet the Lord in the air. In a cloud? A cloud by the way which not only indicated His presence but met Moses Aaron and Miriam at the doorway of the tent of meeting Numbers 12:5. To understand the Elijah mash up we need to look further into this.

I agree. Of course, the Rabbis say this is dangerous territory... :happydance

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 07:46 AM
I don't believe in time travel.

:heeheehee

Me as well. :thumbsup

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 07:47 AM
I agree. Of course, the Rabbis say this is dangerous territory... :happydance

That is because the Rabbis wouldn't enter themselves nor did they want their students to go in either. We still need to look into it. :)

Esaias
11-22-2018, 07:50 AM
Sleep requires silence, if you are listening to music, white noise, rain, pitter patter, thunderstorm, wind, and the rest of the mood music. You aren't actually going into deep sleep.

I can't sleep with music. But I HAVE to have a fan running of some kind. If it is dead quiet I can't fall asleep.

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 08:21 AM
I can't sleep with music. But I HAVE to have a fan running of some kind. If it is dead quiet I can't fall asleep.

Because the way you sleep is slowly going into deep sleep. We aren't dead, so we still have senses picking up what is going on around us. Look at snoring, it actually never let's the sleeper go into a deep sleep.

1ofthechosen
11-22-2018, 11:21 AM
Mike when someone great comes people name their children after them, did you ever consider that?
https://media.makeameme.org/created/im-pretty-sure-5bf65d.jpg

BTW it was more likely this wasn't the same Elijah. None of those answers above. What happened to Elijah I don't know but hes not pacing around in the 2nd heaven somewhere or on a mountain. God took him up for a reason.

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 12:01 PM
BTW it was more likely this wasn't the same Elijah. None of those answers above. What happened to Elijah I don't know but hes not pacing around in the 2nd heaven somewhere or on a mountain. God took him up for a reason.

OK, I understand, and would like to continue this discussion.

But maybe you can make the pictures just a wee smaller.

A different Elijah? Please explain.

houston
11-22-2018, 12:33 PM
OK, I understand, and would like to continue this discussion.

But maybe you can make the pictures just a wee smaller.

A different Elijah? Please explain.

Elijah Jr. :lol

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 12:53 PM
Elijah Jr. :lol

That could be correct, Elijah son of Elijah.

But I may have been very wrong about Elijah, and Enoch. I have to go back to the woodshed. What concerns me at this point is why all the wrath imagery given. fiery war Chariots of Israel, the whirlwind, and the chariot standing between Elijah and Elisha. The dropping of the mantel, indicates one guy is out of business, and the other is taking over. Usually happens after death, so that has to be looked into. Also this was an event that everyone was expecting amongst the prophets. Also it was relayed back to Elisha by the kids you became bear food. Go up ye bald head. Indicating that they wanted Elisha to leave as well.

houston
11-22-2018, 01:36 PM
That could be correct, Elijah son of Elijah.

But I may have been very wrong about Elijah, and Enoch. I have to go back to the woodshed. What concerns me at this point is why all the wrath imagery given. fiery war Chariots of Israel, the whirlwind, and the chariot standing between Elijah and Elisha. The dropping of the mantel, indicates one guy is out of business, and the other is taking over. Usually happens after death, so that has to be looked into. Also this was an event that everyone was expecting amongst the prophets. Also it was relayed back to Elisha by the kids you became bear food. Go up ye bald head. Indicating that they wanted Elisha to leave as well.


The prophets that saw Elijah taken sent a search party.

2 Kings 2:15-18

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 02:20 PM
The prophets that saw Elijah taken sent a search party.

2 Kings 2:15-18



It happened to C.P. Thomas.

Wasn't he kidnapped by Al Qaeda, and he prayed and appeared in his living room?

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 02:41 PM
https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/whitelaw/the_letter_of_elijah.htm

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 03:12 PM
The Letter of Elijah
T. Whitelaw
2 Chronicles 21:12-15
And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus said the LORD God of David your father…

I. THE AUTHOR OF THE WRITING. Various suggestions.

1. Elisha, who entered on the duties of his calling before the death of Jehoshaphat (2 Kings 3:11), and who accordingly would be the most likely party from whom should proceed such a communication as Jehoram received. In this case the name of Elijah must have been substituted in the text for that of Elisha (Kennicott, Jamieson).

2. A later historian, "who describes the relation of Elijah to Joram in few words, and according to his conception of it as a whole" (Bertheau); but "this judgment rests on dogmatic grounds, and flows from a principle which refuses to recognize any supernatural prediction in the prophetic utterances" (Keil).

3. Elijah, the author named in the text. Besides being in the text, the word occurs in all existing Hebrew manuscripts and in all the Oriental versions.

II. THE DATE OF THE WRITING. Again different explanations.

1. After Elijah's translation. The notions that either Elijah sent the letter from heaven by an angel (Grotius), or spoke it from the clouds (Menken), may be discarded as conjectures wanting in support from any intelligible analogies (Keil).

2. Before Elijah's translation. Here two views emerge.

(1) After Jehoram had ascended the throne (Keil, Rawlinson). This assumes that Elijah was alive at the commencement of Jehoram's reign (2 Kings 1:17), and may have learnt of the assassination of Jehoshaphat's sons - the knowledge of which crime may have moved him to send its perpetrator the divinely given announcement of his death this letter contains. The fact that Elisha accompanied Jehoshaphat to the Moabitish war (2 Kings 3:11) does not prove that Elijah had then been translated, since Elijah was alive in the second year of the conjoint reign of Jehoram and Jehoshaphat his father (2 Kings 1:17; 2 Kings 3:1).

(2) Before Jehoram had ascended the throne (Buddaeus, Clarke). Nothing impossible in the suggestion that Elijah had the wickedness of Jehoram revealed to him before it occurred, as previously he had been informed of the elevation of Jehu to the throne of Israel, and of the accession of Hazael to that of Syria, before these events happened (1 Kings 19:16, 17). Either explanation is admissible, though the latter is probably more correct.

III. THE CONTENTS OF THE WRITING.

1. A twofold accusation.

(1) A charge of aggravated idolatry. Not only had Jehoram himself forsaken the way of Jehoshaphat and of Asa, i.e. the worship of Jehovah, and turned aside into the way of the kings of Israel, i.e. worship of Baal and other idols, but he had corrupted the whole house of Judah, and caused them to commit spiritual whoredom, like the house of Ahab.

(2) An indictment of infamous murder. He had slain all his brethren, the children of his father's house, who were better than himself.

2. A twofold retribution.

(1) A great stroke upon his people, upon his house (his wives and children), upon his property (his goods or substance). As prosperity was a usual concomitant of piety, so adversity was wont, under Jehovah's government of Israel, to dog the heels of impiety.

(2) A greater stroke upon himself, in the shape of a slow, but sure, loathsome and mortal disease which should seize upon his bowels. That it should continue for two years before terminating fatally (Bertheau) can hardly be made out from the expressions "day by day," or "days upon days." The prophet could speak with confidence, since diseases are God's messengers who come and go at his command (Exodus 15:26; Deuteronomy 28:60; Psalm 103:3).

IV. THE FULFILMENT OF THE WRITING.

1. The invasion of Jehoram's kingdom. (Ver. 16.)

(1) The prime mover was Jehovah, as Elijah's letter predicted. "The Lord stirred up the spirit of the Philistines," as formerly, on two several occasions, he had stirred up an adversary to Solomon (1 Kings 11:14, 23), and afterwards stirred up Pul (Tiglath-Pileser) King of Assyria, against Pekah King of Israel (2 Kings 15:29; 1 Chronicles 5:26). God is said to do what, for the accomplishment of his own wise and sovereign purposes, he permits to be done, and hence is represented as working all things according to the counsel of his will (Job 9:12; Psalm 66:7; Psalm 115:3; Daniel 4:35; Ephesians 1:11).

(2) The acting instruments were the Philistines, an ancient enemy of Israel (Judges 10:7; 1 Samuel 4:1) on the west; and the Arabians near the Ethiopians, i.e. the middle Arabians, exactly south of Palestine (Schurer). This juxtaposition of the Philistines and Arabians occurs in two more places in this book (2 Chronicles 17:11; 2 Chronicles 26:7).

(3) The extent is indicated by the details given. The savage hordes broke into Judah. That they captured the capital seems a natural inference from the plunder they carried off (Bertheau), though, had Jerusalem been sacked, "the treasures of the palace as well as of the temple would have been mentioned" (Keil). In any case, they carried off "all the substance found in the king's house," which may signify all the property of the palace (Bertheau), or all the king's property found in the country, in the cities, villages, and castles of Judah (Keil). Along with this, they made prisoners of the king's wives and. sons, except Jehoahaz, or Ahaziah. What they did with the former is not recorded; the latter they slew (2 Chronicles 22:1).

2. The affliction of Jehoram's body. Whatever the malady, a violent dysentery, or some disease of the intestines, it was

(1) sudden - "Jehovah struck him," pointing to a mysterious and inexplicable infliction difficult to trace to any immediate physical cause, and therefore ordinarily ascribed to a supernatural origin (2 Chronicles 26:20; Acts 12:23);

(2) painful - the diseases were sore;

(3) protracted - his sickness continued two years;

(4) loathsome - his bowels fell out towards the end of that period;

(5) mortal - he succumbed beneath his ailment, and "died." Learn:

1. God's knowledge of the histories, characters, and actions of men (Proverbs 15:3).

2. God's ability to foresee and reveal to men the nature and tendency of their or others' acts (Genesis 18:17; Genesis 41:28; 1 Samuel 9:15).

3. God's determination to be avenged of them that do wickedly without respect of persons (Psalm 34:16; Psalm 37:38).

4. God's resources for executing his purposes of judgment or mercy. - W.




Parallel Verses
KJV: And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
WEB: A letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, "Thus says Yahweh, the God of David your father, 'Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

The bolded in red is what I always believed.

Saying Elijah didn't go to heaven, isn't a problem, taken up doesn't mean taken into the outer atmosphere. As 1st Thessalonians 4 shows us in the Greek they are brought into the surrounding air into the cloud. Which the Judeans (diaspora, and locals) would of clearly understood as being ushered into God's presence.

But saying that Elijah wasn't deceased is another story. Passing of mantels is another thing which must be taken into consideration. this is also important with the issues of elders, teachers and pastors role in the life of their people.

For instance, these Bible discussions we have here don't take the place of one's church family or pastor, elders, and mentors. No matter what you read here everything gets filtered through your pastor. I believe it was Apostolic1ness in Mike's Jehovah Witness thread "Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos" brings up that his pastor is pre trib, and that the pastor is more focused on getting his people living right (which would help in going up in a rapture, correct?) Esaias also posted on the same page. That it was up to the pastor, how and when he would teach on eschatology. Only the pastor knows what is going on with his own people and what they need to be taught. Yet, MTD continue to tell the saint that the pastor was contrary to Paul's admonitions concerning the coming of the Lord. Apostolic1ness assured MTD That the Pastor wants to believe pre trib, however his time preaching is spent on more important things. But to some they can sit in a church with a Xmas Totem covered in jewelry, and have people celebrating the rising of the Sol Invictus Easter, but if there favorite brand of eschatology isn't preached the pastor is deceiver? Said all that to say this, I'm no one's pastor here, not one of us can take the place of your church family or elders. You have to live there with your pastor, with the brothers and sisters who are trying their best to live for GOD. The pastor is pre trib? Then guess what? Jesus knows all about it doesn't He? You are Pre Wrath, or Post Trib then dear ones, ponder it in your heart. There is nothing worse than an obnoxious eschatology student. I should know, just ask Brother Mike Blume. We do a lot of spit and whittling here, we all learn, and unlearn things. But we always must keep in mind that God placed someone at arm's length to be leadership for us, church family peeps who are our family, who depend on us to help with the chores. If we want to help with the work, then we all have to be moving in the right direction. If your pastor believes Elijah went to heaven, and you don't, then pray "with" him for JESUS to show him. Also, you learning something here isn't necessarily an open door from the Lord to "teach" your pastor. Or bypass your pastor and teach the saints over at Cracker Barrel. Pretty awkward for a preacher to walk up to a table at a restaurant. Where everyone is discussing the new flavor of eschatology. Then when they see the pastor walk up, everyone at the table becomes creepy silent. Work together let Jesus lead the way to a brighter day, and help build the church. World Domination was mentioned in a post, and that is what the church was born to do. It sure won't get there if we can't work with the ones God placed us with.

1ofthechosen
11-22-2018, 04:33 PM
OK, I understand, and would like to continue this discussion.

But maybe you can make the pictures just a wee smaller.

A different Elijah? Please explain.

James Strong says It's the name of 2 other individuals beside for the prophet. So maybe some one else was named after him. That's how it works could've been Elisha's son. There was a lot of prophets in history not other wise listed in scripture. Or people only listed once.

But who are the other 2 Israelites named ELIJAH's listed in scripture James Strong is talking about. One apparently was name Eliah but who are the 2 the prophet and who else?

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 04:42 PM
James Strong says It's the name of 2 other individuals beside for the prophet. So maybe some one else was named after him. That's how it works could've been Elisha's son. There was a lot of prophets in history not other wise listed in scripture. Or people only listed once.

But who are the other 2 Israelites named ELIJAH's listed in scripture James Strong is talking about. One apparently was name Eliah but who are the 2 the prophet and who else?

2 Chronicles 21:12

And there came a writing to him from Elijah THE PROPHET, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 04:48 PM
Did Eljiah Send a Letter to King Jehoram Years After the Prophet Was Already Dead?
by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

According to 2 Chronicles 21, during the reign of King Jehoram, the fifth king of Judah, “a letter came to him from Elijah” in which the prophet rebuked the wicked king and predicted his painful disease and death (2 Chronicles 21:12-15). This account, however, has drawn criticism from some1 since 2 Kings records Elijah being taken up into heaven in chapter 2—six chapters before Jehoram is mentioned as beginning his eight-year reign over Judah (2 Kings 8:16-24). Thus, inquiring minds want to know how Elijah could have penned a letter to a king if the prophet was no longer on Earth?

There are at least two possible, reasonable answers to this question. First, as with many other recorded biblical events,2 it may be that the account of Elijah’s miraculous translation into the spirit realm recorded in 2 Kings 2 was not placed in that particular section of Kings for strict chronological purposes. If the apostle John could place the account of Jesus cleansing the Temple at the beginning of His ministry (John 2:13-22),3 and do so, as some contend, for thematic or theological purposes, rather than chronological reasons, could the inspired penman of Kings not have done something similar? We agree with Keil and Delitzsch, who concluded:

It is impossible to fix the year of Elijah’s ascension. Neither the fact that it is mentioned after the death of Ahaziah of Israel, which he himself had personally foretold to that ungodly king, nor the circumstance that in the war which Jehoshaphat and Joram of Israel waged with the Moabites prophet Elisha was consulted (ch. 3), warrants the conclusion that Elijah was taken from the earth in the interval between these two events. It is very obvious from ch. 3:11 that the two kings applied to Elisha simply because he was in the neighborhood, and not because Elijah was no longer alive.4

Elisha had entered upon this relationship to Elijah long before Elijah’s departure from the earth (1 Kings 19:19ff.). Elijah may therefore have still been alive under Joram of Judah.5

Interestingly, King Jehoram of Judah is actually mentioned in 1 Kings 1:17—before Elijah is translated into heaven. This verse certainly establishes the fact that Jehoram was alive during the time of Elijah and likely hints at the co-regency of Jehoram and his father King Jehoshaphat (cf. 2 Kings 8:16-24),6 which admittedly may cause some confusion when attempting to make precise chronological judgments regarding certain events in Kings and Chronicles.

Even if the events in 2 Kings 1-8 are recorded in a more strict chronological order, however, and Elijah had actually left Earth prior to Jehoram’s independent reign as king began, there still is no proven contradiction between these passages and what the chronicler recorded about Elijah’s letter to Jehoram. Second Chronicles 21:12 does state that “a letter came to” Jehoram “from Elijah the prophet,” but notice that the text does not say that Elijah personally delivered the letter. One simply cannot prove that the text is implying that Elijah was still alive. It could very well be that the prophet Elijah wrote a prophetic letter about King Jehoram’s future sickness and death, which was delivered to the king (perhaps by Elisha) years after Elijah left the Earth. If uninspired people who pass from this life can leave letters and other forms of communication for family members to read (or watch) after their deaths, could a divinely inspired prophet not have arranged for a letter, which he wrote long before, to be delivered at a particular time after his death? To ask is to answer.

Although some may become disturbed upon initially comparing 2 Kings 2 with 2 Chronicles 21, a fair and sober assessment of the text reveals logical explanations for the differences found therein. Perhaps the differences are the result of the events of 2 Kings 2 not being placed in a strict sequential order in the text. Or, it could very well be that Elijah wrote the letter of 2 Chronicles 21 as a prophetic letter before his departure from Earth and long before Jehoram became the sole King of Judah. One thing is certain: no justifiable contradiction has been proven.

ENDNOTES
1 Steve Wells (2016), “The Skeptic’s Annotated Bible,” www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/2chr/21.html.

2 See Eric Lyons (2005), “Alleged Chronological Contradictions,” Apologetics Press, /apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1582.

3 As opposed to the end of it, which is where Matthew, Mark, and Luke place the event.

4 C.F. Keil and F. Delitzsch (1996), Commentary on the Old Testament: 1 & 2 Kings; 1 & 2 Chronicles (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson), 3:209-210.

5 Ibid., 3:643.

6 See R.D. Patterson and Hermann J. Austel (1988), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: 1 & 2 Kings, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan), 4:173.

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 04:51 PM
1ofthechosen, I just had a thought, we have a OT filled with scribal letters from Prophets concerning future events. Isaiah announces a King by name long before the king's birth Isaiah 44:28.

1ofthechosen
11-22-2018, 04:52 PM
2 Chronicles 21:12

And there came a writing to him from Elijah THE PROPHET, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

Who's to say that there isn't 2 Elijah's that were a prophet. Who is the other Elijah find the scripture James Strong got this from.

houston
11-22-2018, 04:52 PM
It happened to C.P. Thomas.

Wasn't he kidnapped by Al Qaeda, and he prayed and appeared in his living room?

Right. And Osama Bin Laden’s wives were born again.

1ofthechosen
11-22-2018, 04:52 PM
1ofthechosen, I just had a thought, we have a OT filled with scribal letters from Prophets concerning future events. Isaiah announces a King by name long before the king's birth Isaiah 44:28.

That's true also

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 05:10 PM
Who's to say that there isn't 2 Elijah's that were a prophet. Who is the other Elijah find the scripture James Strong got this from.

Yes, that could be very true. But if we were to accept that we just made our job actually harder. Because we are using speculation to prop up a belief. While you and I may high five each other because we came up with a solution, that solution is really not that firm. Because we can't go to the Bible to lay a foundation that there was actually 2 prophets who both had the name Elijah. Historically we even get murkier, because we don't have any information or legend about the 2 prophets. Not even a Jesuit who had the idea. :heeheehee

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 05:12 PM
That's true also

:highfive

Evang.Benincasa
11-22-2018, 05:14 PM
Right. And Osama Bin Laden’s wives were born again.

C.P. Williams had photos of Bin Laden's wives on a bus. He may also have pictures of his flight from the Al Qaeda headquarters to his dinner table. :heeheehee

1ofthechosen
11-22-2018, 05:27 PM
C.P. Williams had photos of Bin Laden's wives on a bus. He may also have pictures of his flight from the Al Qaeda headquarters to his dinner table. :heeheehee

Call Stoneking he will know..

houston
11-22-2018, 05:31 PM
Call Stoneking he will know..

You’re familiar with the story.

houston
11-22-2018, 05:32 PM
After this Thanksgiving meal I’m gonna be translated from the dining table to the bathroom.

1ofthechosen
11-22-2018, 08:57 PM
You’re familiar with the story.

https://www youtube.com/watcg?v=06LWtiIgXkM (https://www youtube.com/watch?v=06LWtiIgXkM)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FAmgwFPvRs

Even though I heard him tell those stories here, I probably won't preach a message and call them gospel. CP Williams has to be like the modern day Apostle Paul. Not only does he get broken out of jail, but he converts wives like the Apostle did with Nero's wife. Now this thread has gone full circle, so who's the AntiChrist if he wasn't?

Esaias
11-22-2018, 10:41 PM
Are there parallels between Elijah's ministry and life, and that of John the Baptist? Is Elisha a type of John's disciples? A type of Christ? Does the mantle and the splitting of the river have any typological connection to baptism? John's baptism? John's baptism of Jesus?

Judgment symbolism with Elijah and Elisha: does that correspond in any way to John's message about purging?

Is there a correspondence between Elijah and Christ, and Elisha and the disciples on Pentecost?

Did Ezekiel see the Chariot of Israel?

Michael The Disciple
11-23-2018, 05:28 AM
https://www youtube.com/watcg?v=06LWtiIgXkM (https://www youtube.com/watch?v=06LWtiIgXkM)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FAmgwFPvRs

Even though I heard him tell those stories here, I probably won't preach a message and call them gospel. CP Williams has to be like the modern day Apostle Paul. Not only does he get broken out of jail, but he converts wives like the Apostle did with Nero's wife. Now this thread has gone full circle, so who's the AntiChrist if he wasn't?

These stories are pale compared to the modern day story that Jesus came, resurrected the dead and raptured the living, and the heavens and the earth passed away 2000 years ago!

So Stoneking gets taken with a grain of salt but THIS is taught as gospel!

Evang.Benincasa
11-23-2018, 06:04 AM
These stories are pale compared to the modern day story that Jesus came, resurrected the dead and raptured the living, and the heavens and the earth passed away 2000 years ago!

So Stoneking gets taken with a grain of salt but THIS is taught as gospel!

Mike, no one here believes in a rapture taking place in the past.
Readers of this thread, Mike attends a church (150 miles) from his home. All because of two words. Post and Tribulation. He also doesn’t believe celebrating Xmas and Easter but his certain flavor of eschatology is his candy stick. He also posted that the church teaches the same as any other UPCI church therefore indicating he isn’t being fed. He complained he hadn’t heard the pastor preach on post trib in 7 weeks. Oh, poor wee lamb. So, while young people are struggling, husbands are staying home while wives get baptized in Yahshua name by some goof ball in Mississippi, and marriages going through it, preaching prophecy is going to help these people out? Don’t get me wrong I teach eschatology, but soteriology is numero uno!!! I know Preterists and Post Tribs (more than Pentecostals) who are as lost as potatoes. Because they don’t believe in One God, Jesus name baptism, the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues. People if you don’t have people getting filled, and taught to live Holy overcoming lives, where men are men, and women are women. Then no matter what eschatology you believe, you are just twisting in the wind. Mike here is a frustrated old guy who can only reminisce about his glory days in the 70s and 80s? He is retired from his secular job and still does nothing with his time? Listen, if a world wide cataclysm greater then any human ever experience is any day now, then what in the world is this lunatic doing on a forum and Paltalk? Newsflash for Mike, people need one on one, close contact. If post trib was so awful important you would start a church. Instead of sending people to a church where the guy really doesn’t preach it to your standard. Seven weeks the guy hadn’t preach it and you are crying like a brat. If you can do it better then show us, or shut your foolish mouth. Apostolic1ness, God bless your pastor in Jesus name.

Evang.Benincasa
11-23-2018, 06:19 AM
Are there parallels between Elijah's ministry and life, and that of John the Baptist? Is Elisha a type of John's disciples? A type of Christ? Does the mantle and the splitting of the river have any typological connection to baptism? John's baptism? John's baptism of Jesus?

Judgment symbolism with Elijah and Elisha: does that correspond in any way to John's message about purging?

Is there a correspondence between Elijah and Christ, and Elisha and the disciples on Pentecost?

Did Ezekiel see the Chariot of Israel?

Elijah is the old order taken up with the motif of judgment.
It is very interesting the the two are separated by the warrior horsemen of Israel. The old order is swept away by the whirlwind. Elisha gets a greater portion. Greater things will he do then I have done speaking of the church which continue to absorb and dominate the entire earth. Ezekiel sees the cherubs which form a cube with four wheels on each end. Elisha was plowing with 12 oxen, denoting the 12 oxen under the basin. 12 meaning government authority of leadership. Elisha represents the disciple the patiently waits for the elder’s blessing no matter what the other prophets might say on YouTube, Paltalk, AFF, or the NSA’s Facebook. Elisha is steadfast in desiring to have more, be more. So much that even his bones can heal you. That through the death of Christ brings healing. By His wounds we are made new.

Evang.Benincasa
11-23-2018, 06:21 AM
Yes, it is a chariot, it looked like a cart for the ark of the covenant. Yet the ark was to be carried not rolled.

mfblume
11-23-2018, 06:38 AM
Brother TK Burk has been rushed to the hospital. Pray.

Oh my. Praying. Just saw this today.

mfblume
11-23-2018, 06:47 AM
Elijah is the old order taken up with the motif of judgment.
It is very interesting the the two are separated by the warrior horsemen of Israel. The old order is swept away by the whirlwind. Elisha gets a greater portion. Greater things will he do then I have done speaking of the church which continue to absorb and dominate the entire earth. Ezekiel sees the cherubs which form a cube with four wheels on each end. Elisha was plowing with 12 oxen, denoting the 12 oxen under the basin. 12 meaning government authority of leadership. Elisha represents the disciple the patiently waits for the elder’s blessing no matter what the other prophets might say on YouTube, Paltalk, AFF, or the NSA’s Facebook. Elisha is steadfast in desiring to have more, be more. So much that even his bones can heal you. That through the death of Christ brings healing. By His wounds we are made new.

Good stuff!

Evang.Benincasa
11-23-2018, 06:55 AM
Oh my. Praying. Just saw this today.

He is in intensive care, on a machine to help him breath.

Thank you for the prayers elder in Jesus name.

Michael The Disciple
11-23-2018, 08:42 AM
Mike, no one here believes in a rapture taking place in the past.
Readers of this thread, Mike attends a church (150 miles) from his home. All because of two words. Post and Tribulation. He also doesn’t believe celebrating Xmas and Easter but his certain flavor of eschatology is his candy stick. He also posted that the church teaches the same as any other UPCI church therefore indicating he isn’t being fed. He complained he hadn’t heard the pastor preach on post trib in 7 weeks. Oh, poor wee lamb. So, while young people are struggling, husbands are staying home while wives get baptized in Yahshua name by some goof ball in Mississippi, and marriages going through it, preaching prophecy is going to help these people out? Don’t get me wrong I teach eschatology, but soteriology is numero uno!!! I know Preterists and Post Tribs (more than Pentecostals) who are as lost as potatoes. Because they don’t believe in One God, Jesus name baptism, the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues. People if you don’t have people getting filled, and taught to live Holy overcoming lives, where men are men, and women are women. Then no matter what eschatology you believe, you are just twisting in the wind. Mike here is a frustrated old guy who can only reminisce about his glory days in the 70s and 80s? He is retired from his secular job and still does nothing with his time? Listen, if a world wide cataclysm greater then any human ever experience is any day now, then what in the world is this lunatic doing on a forum and Paltalk? Newsflash for Mike, people need one on one, close contact. If post trib was so awful important you would start a church. Instead of sending people to a church where the guy really doesn’t preach it to your standard. Seven weeks the guy hadn’t preach it and you are crying like a brat. If you can do it better then show us, or shut your foolish mouth. Apostolic1ness, God bless your pastor in Jesus name.

I will address the bold.

1. Dom, if you dont believe in preterism thats a good thing. You have certainly avoided any attempt to present it on this thread. Good for you. Some people who at least visit the forum do believe this. Don't assume this was just for you.

2. By "candy stick" I assume you mean something I like to teach. I plead guilty. Yet....I also enjoy teaching the OTHER FOUNDATION doctrines just as much as I do regularly.

3. You said I complained about the Pastor not preaching post trib in 7 weeks. You probably were not making up a bold face lie (I hope) but rather your memory failed you again. I said in 7 MONTHS I have not heard it even mentioned. As to you calling it a complaint, that is the reason I started going there. So yes it is/was disappointing.

4. As far as wives getting baptized by someone in Mississippi I have no idea what you are even talking about. But it's true prophecy will give NO ONE HOPE...once you have taken away the blessed hope that Jesus is coming in all his glory. Once you bury the coming of Jesus 2000 years in the past, which now you say you DO NOT BELIEVE HAPPENED it would crush ones faith. So good for you Dom.

5. And what is an overcoming life? To me its wrapped up in Matt. 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

I have heard this taught by exactly ZERO UPC Preachers. To many of them "overcoming" seems to be wrapped up in men shaving beards and women never cutting hair.

6. As to Apostolic 1ness he said he agrees with me on post trib. He is a man and will believe what he believes. If he was offended by what I said he will get over it and not spend the rest of his days on the forum attacking me over it.

As to the personal attacks. You just cant help yourself.

1ofthechosen
11-23-2018, 09:09 AM
These stories are pale compared to the modern day story that Jesus came, resurrected the dead and raptured the living, and the heavens and the earth passed away 2000 years ago!

So Stoneking gets taken with a grain of salt but THIS is taught as gospel!

I know you want to keep this thread going considering that's the reason you created. But no one, I repeat no one has ascribed to that stance you are claiming; not only that Mike in the context you are saying they don't even see that in scripture. So no one has yet to teach on it that way...

But meanwhile back at the ranch Stoneking did teach CP Williams was snatched out of a prison in tbe night, oh and Bin Ladens 40 wives received the Holy Ghost on video btw, but to this time we haven't seen the video yet... Sort of like this so called teaching you say EB and the pretrists believe in the context your saying it has yet to be taught one iota. I guess I'll wait for Bin Ladens wives receiving the Holy Ghost video and for EB to break out the teaching in the context you are saying it quietly while holding my breath...

At this point your just mischaracterizing their beliefs dishonestly on purpose though. Because they've cleared this up numerous times for the simple purpose of being argumentative.

Evang.Benincasa
11-23-2018, 11:18 AM
I will address the bold.

1. Dom, if you dont believe in preterism thats a good thing. You have certainly avoided any attempt to present it on this thread. Good for you. Some people who at least visit the forum do believe this. Don't assume this was just for you.

Mike, again, I can't stress this enough. I am posting with individuals here and gave my view of 1 Thessalonians 4. You are so religiously flipped out, you aren't noticing anything I've been saying. i assume nothing, this thread was started for me. You are the lair, passive aggressive, but an obvious liar.
Looks like we will be calling each other liar for the rest of the time we post to each other. Locked up in your job, and house doing nothing for 44 years? 1974 till now? Bitterness? That's you, all the way.


2. By "candy stick" I assume you mean something I like to teach. I plead guilty.

NO way, Mike teach? we have me posting my beliefs, Esaias posting his, and 1ofthechosen, and Amanah posting information. You? one thing about Elijah. Other than that you been advertising your rendition of Preterism. Other than that, nothing much. CANDY STICK is that all you care about is two words Post and Tribulation. A Trinitarian Charismatics can sing about his hot burning love for Jesus, and if he is POST TRIB, then you give him a thumbs up.



Yet....I also enjoy teaching the OTHER FOUNDATION doctrines just as much as I do regularly.

Well, you were tagged on that, a poster pointed out that celebrating the festival of BAAL gets a pass as long as you are teaching post trib. Mike, I know Pre Tribbers who believe anyone who isn't pre Trib is lost. I know post Tribbers who if you don't see it all their way you are lost. You been paddling around in religion chasing the carrot on the stick for 44 years and you still haven't figure it out? But will drive 150 (did I get it right Mike) round trip to hear nothing but Post Trib preached? Is this what a church should sound like Mike? Praise the Lord Post tribulation rapture of the church! We are taking up prayer requests, Post tribulation rapture of the church! MeMaw stand up and give a good testimony, "Post tribulation rapture of the church." I would like to start off my sermon this morning by greeting new visitors " Post tribulation rapture of the church. Sister Winona, please get ready to come up and sing your single "Post tribulation rapture of the church." Ok church, my sermon today is titled "Post tribulation rapture of the church." The Chorale will now sing "Post tribulation rapture of the church." Now please all visitors don't forget to fill out your visitor cards. The ones in the wooded tray in the foyer, they are titled "Welcome to the First Church of the Post tribulation rapture." Good grief. :heeheehee



3. You said I complained about the Pastor not preaching post trib in 7 weeks. You probably were not making up a bold face lie (I hope) but rather your memory failed you again.

Memory failing? You wish, it was just so unbelievable that you would be sniveling about what the pastor preached or didn't preach about eschatology.
Like Apostolic1ness and Esaias posted maybe the pastor has other things more pressing. Since you aren't a minister, or elder within a church family your opinion about what this man is doing means nothing. Tell you what, save your gas, and travel time, stop going. If you are going to judge his schedule predicated on what you want, you have no clue about what the church family needs. In the immortal words of Sister Daisy, "if you don't like what is preached or taught, or how things are flowing? Then I suggest you go either find or start your own church." Hello Church! Pathetic Mike, pretty pathetic.




I said in 7 MONTHS

Start your own church Hoss. Mike, first things first, that isn't your church family. You have no skin in the game other than you belly aching over 150 miles and not getting your way. That pastor graciously greeted you, and most likely would love you to be a part of their group. But like most pastors knows oh too well that you have no roots. You also have a bad ecclesiastical resume. You already are showing signs of weakening and sooner or later will move on. 7 months and not preaching salvation, pulling for sinners in and without, for 7 weeks or 7 months would blow my mind. Not preaching eschatology? Mike, a broken marriage, troubled teens struggling with the social world around them, elders trying to make ends meet, losing employment, sure get stone faced when they are sat down and taught Nebuchadnezzar's image.


I said in 7 MONTHS I have not heard it even mentioned. As to you calling it a complaint, that is the reason I started going there. So yes it is/was disappointing.

Wow, silly idiots like me go to churches that are filled with the Holy Ghost evidences. Oh, I have friends, and had friends who emphasise on eschatology to your extent. Dryer then a mummy's pocket, instead of fresh bread nothing more than toast. Titus 2:11-14 isn't talking about eschatology, it is talking about fulfillment of the passing of one age into the next. That the GRACE of GOD shines brilliantly to all people, a light from heaven which is Jesus Christ. Christians were admonished not to steal, but to represent Christ. They were to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly desires, to live with self control, upright and godly lives in their present age, which was the old age , in verse 13 again we have the word ἐπιφάνειαν, which in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 correctly translated by the KJV translators as "brightness" the HOPE of the brightness of the passing of the old age, and the dawning of the age to come, this is what is being taught in Titus 2:11-14. We are living in the Age of the True Israel of God, the New Jerusalem. Our hope is in nothing less than Jesus Christ, our righteousness. Good God in Zion!





4. As far as wives getting baptized by someone in Mississippi I have no idea what you are even talking about. But it's true prophecy will give NO ONE HOPE...once you have taken away the blessed hope that Jesus is coming in all his glory. Once you bury the coming of Jesus 2000 years in the past, which now you say you DO NOT BELIEVE HAPPENED it would crush ones faith. So good for you Dom.

Ok baptizing Fort Lauderdale House wife in Oneida Tennessee. Mississippi was being facetious. What a turkey :lol The blessed hope is eternal life. With the full assurance that we will never die and that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That's why when a brother and I prayed with his dying abuela, while she was speaking in tongues she passed in peace to Jesus Christ. She was an Apostolic Pentecostal and a Preterist. She started in Pentecost in Colombia back in the 1950s, saw great revivals, and always greeted everyone in her home with testimony of Jesus name and the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit of God gives the utterance. She left this world speaking in tongues and glorifying God. She received her blessed hope. Sounds like you have none.




5. And what is an overcoming life? To me its wrapped up in Matt. 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Mike I assure you, that the Father isn't passive aggressive.



I have heard this taught by exactly ZERO UPC Preachers. To many of them "overcoming" seems to be wrapped up in men shaving beards and women never cutting hair.

I preached be ye perfect as the Father is perfect, that deals with maturity about 11 years ago at a church. Old Casper (Cappy) Billheimer jumped up after the service and pointed out to me that was what his old pastor preached (Brother Baxter Senior) Well, Mike, that's UPCI as UPCI can get, and those boys were way back when. I have heard the message of perfection in maturity ever since I set a foot in the Apostolic church. You aren't a good measure of anything, since you are religiously burnt out with the UPCI, and you can't help but attack them over not having a facial hair. You just can't see past the first two letters. :heeheehee


6. As to Apostolic 1ness he said he agrees with me on post trib.

That's all that matters to you boy. But that isn't it, his pastor is pre trib
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1553389&postcount=108

You couldn't help yourself, because you are only 1 dimensional.


He is a man and will believe what he believes. If he was offended by what I said he will get over it

But not you buddy boy! :laffatu

Mike, in your Jehovah Witness thread "Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos" it was you who brought up my name. You did, you went after me, now you are belly aching? You sure complain a lot for a man. :heeheehee




and not spend the rest of his days on the forum attacking me over it.

Mike, you are keeping hot, this is what you want. You started with mentioning me over in the other thread. A thread that had nothing to do with eschatology. But, no problem because eschatology is more than soteriology to you. The UPCI would of never formed in 1948 if they all wanted to just form over eschatology. Because there are so many variations of Pre Trib, Post trib, mid trib, pre wrath, Historic post trib, Historic Postmillennial, Amillennial, partial preterism, full preterism, fulfilled eschatology, idealist eschatology, partially fulfilled symbolic eschatology, symbolic eschatology, dualist eschatology. Also the one that covers them all PAN TRIB. Mike, you are an old dude, and you still haven't figure it out that this is only about one thing. People. People who have lives a little more complicated then you and I. Guy on a job was going to jump off the scaffold, he wasn't going to let anyone know, just fall to the parking lot below. I caught him by the belt, and one look at his face, I saw he was upset. I didn't give him a Bible study on seven trumpets, or how long are the toes of Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue. I told him that if he didn't want his life, Jesus wants his life, because Jesus loves Him. Elder Marcellus Quickley when he was a young dealer in Maryland an Apostolic told him one thing. Jesus loves you. When the man left that is all that stuck in Elder Quickley's mind. No Bible study about white horse, black horse, got him out of drug dealing. That my brother would know the HOPE of Jesus' calling, and the riches of the glory of Jesus' inheritance in the saints of God.



As to the personal attacks. You just cant help yourself.

Mike, you are no boy scout. Passive aggression is still aggression.

This is what I tell people with your problem. You put on an act of "Christian" while you seethe and use passive aggression disguised with religious double speak. You know what you are doing, even though you deny it. I'm the other, i'm faceless, I point out that you aren't as perfect as the Father, as you would like us all to believe. You get upset, you know your upset, and find the Pentecostal chink in the other's armor in my case it is Preterism. Because you think I'm hated minority, and therefore like a female in a biker bar, you start a fight with a guy so everyone beats the snot out of him while you sit back and watch.

You are perfect alright, just like your father. :)

Evang.Benincasa
11-23-2018, 11:54 AM
I didnt know we could do that! If so I may have requested that Mike Blume or Dom Benincasa not get involved in end time threads I was involved in.

Hi Dom,

I just noticed this thread for the first time. It might have been a powerful discussion but it looks as tho since you guys have it all figured out there would not be much point amen?

Mike's past responses to Preterists in the eschatology section of the forum.
He didn't want to discuss there and looks like he won't be doing it here.

Mike, I thought it was hilarious that you wanted the admin to keep Brother Blume out of your thread.

Big Brave Post Tribber, You Tarzan of the Eschatological Jungle.

I'm just Cheetah the Preterist :feral

Michael The Disciple
11-23-2018, 12:21 PM
Mike's past responses to Preterists in the eschatology section of the forum.
He didn't want to discuss there and looks like he won't be doing it here.

Mike, I thought it was hilarious that you wanted the admin to keep Brother Blume out of your thread.

Big Brave Post Tribber, You Tarzan of the Eschatological Jungle.

I'm just Cheetah the Preterist :feral

Only problem is Dom you FORGOT.....must be your memory again! I said what I said about you and Mike in RESPONSE to the person who started the thread out by telling the Admin NOT to allow Sean (anti preterist poster) to post to the thread!

Yes it just so happened I was reading that thread a few hours ago.

As far as THIS THREAD goes I begged you to present what you believe so we can go from there. You wont. I tried to dialogue with you starting in 1 Thessalonians.

But we could not even agree on one verse. I dont have time to spend page after page arguing about one word at a time, and were still on the first verse of a discussion.

So thats why I suggested lay out what you believe. Then we can see what it is and THEN talk about it.

But since you do not believe the coming of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, and the rapture (catching up, forceful seizure) of the saints happened in 70ad according to your earlier post why be so defensive? Let the thread speak to those who do and let THEM post an overview of THEIR belief.

Evang.Benincasa
11-23-2018, 12:56 PM
Only problem is Dom you FORGOT.....must be your memory again! I said what I said about you and Mike in RESPONSE to the person who started the thread out by telling the Admin NOT to allow Sean (anti preterist poster) to post to the thread!

I can only go on what you posted, that you wanted to know if it was possible to keep Brother Blume out of your threads. Maybe it was due to your inability to hold a discussion with him?

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1511207&postcount=16


Yes it just so happened I was reading that thread a few hours ago.

So, you are confused about in that short of time?


As far as THIS THREAD goes I begged you to present what you believe so we can go from there. You wont. I tried to dialogue with you starting in 1 Thessalonians.

I did, and matter of fact brought it up a few times more with posters I was discussing with. But you don't want a discussion.


But we could not even agree on one verse. I dont have time to spend page after page arguing about one word at a time, and were still on the first verse of a discussion.

Funny, coming from a man who will spend hours, and pages on the word shorn, cut, and long. Also hours and pages over facial hair. Mike, seriously? :laffatu


So thats why I suggested lay out what you believe. Then we can see what it is and THEN talk about it.

That's why I asked if you would answer my questions, in that way I would learn where I was wrong. I spent one post with Esaias, and no longer believe that Elijah was taken into a heavenly realm. Still working out the details but questions work wonders. You are just a religious bullet head who gives more of a pass to the Trinitarian witch Misty Edwards, then he would to an Apostolic preacher not preaching post tribulation rapture for 7 months. Mike, you aren't a teacher, you aren't a reacher. :heeheehee


But since you do not believe the coming of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead,

No, Mike you don't. Because Mike, they are only words to you like Orange Man Bad. You are typical loon who believes by his much speaking God takes notice. Actually, you prove to not believe it, because if you did you would be working way harder to get a group together to teach them everything you know. You sure as shooting anit teaching it here. I asked you about fig tree, you bailed, I asked about up, you bailed, Mike, you just want me to do what you always refused to do. Eschatology section proves it.




and the rapture (catching up, forceful seizure) of the saints happened in 70ad according to your earlier post why be so defensive?

Did I say I didn't believe in a rapture in 70 A.D.? Yes, or no? :laffatu






Let the thread speak to those who do and let THEM post an overview of THEIR belief.

It seems everyone is doing fine in YOUR thread without you. :thumbsup

Michael The Disciple
11-23-2018, 01:29 PM
Dom

I can only go on what you posted, that you wanted to know if it was possible to keep Brother Blume out of your threads. Maybe it was due to your inability to hold a discussion with him?

Here is the flow.

James Glen started the thread with this post.

James Glen

In posting this thread, and the intent therein, I respectfully ask that Sean abstain from making ANY posts whatsoever on the entire thread, and I respectfully request that admin hold him to it. Thank you.

On seeing this I said this to the group NOT to an admin.

I didnt know we could do that! If so I may have requested that Mike Blume or Dom Benincasa not get involved in end time threads I was involved in.

It was obviously meant to give a bit of "levity" to the discussion.

Evang.Benincasa
11-23-2018, 01:44 PM
Here is the flow.

James Glen started the thread with this post.



On seeing this I said this to the group NOT to an admin.



It was obviously meant to give a bit of "levity" to the discussion.

Sorry, but you are most certainly one poster not known for humor. :lol

Good God from Zion! :slaphappy

Michael The Disciple
11-23-2018, 01:50 PM
Dom

I did, and matter of fact brought it up a few times more with posters I was discussing with. But you don't want a discussion.

You did not lay out what you believe about full preterism. Thats what I ask asked for when it was clear that it would takes vast periods of time answering questions about the meaning of "air" or "up" before a discussion on the topic could begin.

That's why I asked if you would answer my questions, in that way I would learn where I was wrong. I spent one post with Esaias, and no longer believe that Elijah was taken into a heavenly realm. Still working out the details but questions work wonders. You are just a religious bullet head who gives more of a pass to the Trinitarian witch Misty Edwards, then he would to an Apostolic preacher not preaching post tribulation rapture for 7 months. Mike, you aren't a teacher, you aren't a reacher.

You wont even say what is you that you DO believe. I wont attempt to answering your questions if I dont even know what the discussion is or where it is leading.

Esaias put out a great teaching on Elijah. You asked me about it once on Paltalk and I explained it to you basically the same way he did. I am happy his excellent post did the job for you.

As far as Misty Edwards being a "witch" I have certainly been edified by her music FAR MORE.....than anything you have presented me. I would say she has or had the Holy Spirit as much as you have or had. I cant vouch for her current walk anymore than I can for yours. In times past I have had great confidence in the fact that she loves Jesus and had his Spirit.

Michael The Disciple
11-23-2018, 01:52 PM
Sorry, but you are most certainly one poster not known for humor. :lol

Good God from Zion! :slaphappy

I probably dont do humor very well, but it was an attempt as anyone could see reading the thread.

Wait a minute! It must have given you a bit of lightheartedness.

Mike, I thought it was hilarious that you wanted the admin to keep Brother Blume out of your thread.

Hilarious?....And again I never asked the ADMIN to keep you out of any thread.

Here is what I said in further clarification to Mike Blume.

A good while back I noticed you guys getting involved in every end time thread. I started a thread on why I believe in futurism. Naturally you all joined in. To me the forum is just that. Altho it would be easier teaching without opposition as far as I can tell anyone who chooses to participate is allowed.

Esaias
11-23-2018, 01:58 PM
Elijah is the old order taken up with the motif of judgment.
It is very interesting the the two are separated by the warrior horsemen of Israel. The old order is swept away by the whirlwind. Elisha gets a greater portion. Greater things will he do then I have done speaking of the church which continue to absorb and dominate the entire earth. Ezekiel sees the cherubs which form a cube with four wheels on each end. Elisha was plowing with 12 oxen, denoting the 12 oxen under the basin. 12 meaning government authority of leadership. Elisha represents the disciple the patiently waits for the elder’s blessing no matter what the other prophets might say on YouTube, Paltalk, AFF, or the NSA’s Facebook. Elisha is steadfast in desiring to have more, be more. So much that even his bones can heal you. That through the death of Christ brings healing. By His wounds we are made new.

Excellent! You've given me much to consider and study. :yourock

Esaias
11-23-2018, 02:12 PM
Also this was an event that everyone was expecting amongst the prophets.

Good point. I wonder why? Perhaps Elijah had told them his ministry was coming to a close? And the kids mocking Elisha, I never considered the "Go up, baldhead" was maybe them saying "Go up like Elijah did." Like maybe they were demanding some miraculous sign to convince them he was legitimate?

Michael The Disciple
11-23-2018, 02:13 PM
Dom

I asked you about fig tree, you bailed, I asked about up, you bailed, Mike, you just want me to do what you always refused to do.

Bailed? No. I told you that to me it had no particular significance. That is exactly what I meant. I dont teach the fig tree being Israel in that verse. Others do I don't. To me its just Jesus saying like when a fig tree puts out leaves summer is near, when you see these SIGNS his coming would be near.

You apparently wanted me to say the fig tree represents Israel so you could spend time arguing over that rather than getting on to the issue.

Evang.Benincasa
11-23-2018, 02:18 PM
Bailed? No. I told you that to me it had no particular significance. That is exactly what I meant. I dont teach the fig tree being Israel in that verse. Others do I don't. To me its just Jesus saying like when a fig tree puts out leaves summer is near, when you see these SIGNS his coming would be near.

You apparently wanted me to say the fig tree represents Israel so you could spend time arguing over that rather than getting on to the issue.

To the pure all things are pure Mike.

You assume much because you believe the student is here to trap you. Which isn't the case. Anyway, since you seem like you want to talk, then what SIGNS does summer show the nearness?

1ofthechosen
11-23-2018, 04:08 PM
Only problem is Dom you FORGOT.....must be your memory again! I said what I said about you and Mike in RESPONSE to the person who started the thread out by telling the Admin NOT to allow Sean (anti preterist poster) to post to the thread!

Yes it just so happened I was reading that thread a few hours ago.

As far as THIS THREAD goes I begged you to present what you believe so we can go from there. You wont. I tried to dialogue with you starting in 1 Thessalonians.

But we could not even agree on one verse. I dont have time to spend page after page arguing about one word at a time, and were still on the first verse of a discussion.

So thats why I suggested lay out what you believe. Then we can see what it is and THEN talk about it.

But since you do not believe the coming of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, and the rapture (catching up, forceful seizure) of the saints happened in 70ad according to your earlier post why be so defensive? Let the thread speak to those who do and let THEM post an overview of THEIR belief.

Mike he has said over and over again what he believes. Its not that difficult bro, actually so much explaination had gone forth in this thread you have to have read it. But synopsis of all of it in under a sentence " the way your reading into scripture through a pre determined lens is effecting your understanding of what is being related in it." I'm not saying their right and your wrong, but I am saying you have tunnel vision and sound as cooky as Brother Baxter when he starts talking bout "his life work."

Because of your predetermined position you can't even understand what they mean. You get like that on a lot of subjects including what this thread is about, oh yeah and beards. So go back and read all the posts again and really take them in forget what you've been taught, and look at it from every facet and angle. Then see what beneficial value it has, and what just can't be. Because one thing about Eschatology people wouldn't believe any of it of their wasn't some truth in it. And somewhere between all these beliefs is the correct Interpretation. Just my thoughts any way I'm sorry I said you were just being argumentative. I really reflected on it a little farther and I believe above is the real problem not you were lying or being argumentative, just that you are coming at the text with a predetermined idea, and since you do you can't even hear or understand anything else.

JamesGlen
11-24-2018, 07:37 PM
Heb. 6:2 ...foundational doctrine of the (future)resurrection and eternal judgement . (Written 65ish AD)
The same resurrection that Paul was chained up for...resurrection of BOTH the just and the unjust.
Acts 24:15 “I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”

This biblical truth regarding the resurrection is too valuable for us to carelessly discard.

If it happened in AD 70, I think such a major event would’ve been recorded. More importantly, we do not have the same hope as Paul, (nor adhere to the same foundational doctrine as the writer of Hebrews) if the resurrection of Heb. 6:2 AND Acts 24:15 already has taken place.

Michael The Disciple
11-24-2018, 07:40 PM
Heb. 6:2 ...foundational doctrine of the (future)resurrection. (Written 65ish AD)
The same resurrection that Paul was chained up for...resurrection of BOTH the just and the unjust.
Acts 24:15 “I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”

This biblical truth regarding the resurrection is too valuable for us to carelessly discard.

If it happened in AD 70, I think such a major event would’ve been recorded. More importantly, we do not have the same hope as Paul, if the resurrection of Heb. 6:2 AND Acts 24:15 already has taken place.


I pondered on this quite a few months back, and it was a sobering point to me.

Amen if there is no resurrection let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die.

1ofthechosen
11-24-2018, 11:04 PM
A good article on the Elijah letter:


Did Elijah send a letter to King Jehoram after his ascension into heaven? – 2 Chronicles 21:12

"ARE HEBREW SCRIPTURE PATRIARCHS IN HEAVEN? – Did Elijah send a letter to King Jehoram after his ascension into heaven? – 2 CHRONICLES 21:12: “then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet….”

JEHOVAH’S WITNESS ARGUMENT:

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that no person who lived prior to the coming of Jesus Christ went to heaven. In order to support their ideology, they explain Elijah’s ascension into heaven as a temporary removal from one place on earth to another and claim that Elijah reappeared on earth to send a letter to King Jehoram (2 Chronicles 21:12), years after he went up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kings 2:11).1.

BIBLICAL RESPONSE:

There is no indication that Elijah went up to heaven before he sent the letter to King Jehoram of Judah. We read at 1 Kings 22:50 and 2 Kings 1:17 that Jehoram became King of Judah two years before a different King Jehoram became king of Israel. It wasn’t until the NEXT chapter at 2 Kings 2:11 (during the reign of this other King Jehoram of Israel) that we read of Elijah’s ascension into heaven.

It is important to note that nowhere does the Bible give a specific year for Elijah’s translation into heaven. We only know that it happened sometime during the reign of King Jehoram of Israel. Since King Jehoram of Judah (who received the letter from Elijah) had already been reigning two years by the time King Jehoram of Israel took the throne, Elijah could have easily sent his letter to King Jehoram of Judah before his ascension into heaven at 2 Kings 2:11.

2 Chronicles 21:19 notes that Jehoram of Judah began to experience the effects of the condemning words in Elijah’s letter two years before he died in the eighth year of his reign, so it is reasonable to conclude that Elijah’s letter and his subsequent transportation to heaven occurred sometime between Jehoram of Judah’s second to sixth year of reign.

Furthermore, if Elijah was planning to reappear on earth and resume his ministry after ascending into heaven for a few years, one would have to question why Elijah spoke of being “taken from” his apprentice Elisha and why he would have gone to the effort of requesting for Elisha a “double portion” of his spirit upon leaving.2. Such commitment to Elisha would hardly seem relevant if Elijah was to resume his work on earth only a few years after the whirlwind incident. Thus, we see that not only does the Scriptural account negate the Watchtower’s view of Elijah’s ascension, but the circumstances surrounding the event speak of the permanence of his ascension into heaven (that is in the Abraham’s bosom portion of Hades described at Luke 16) until he appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration at Matthew 17:3. We also read of other Hebrew Scripture (Old Testament) patriarchs dwelling in heaven at Hebrews 11:13-16 and Matthew 8:11."

http://www.4jehovah.org/do-old-testament-believers-go-to-heaven/

Carl
11-25-2018, 06:59 AM
A good article on the Elijah letter:


Did Elijah send a letter to King Jehoram after his ascension into heaven? – 2 Chronicles 21:12

"ARE HEBREW SCRIPTURE PATRIARCHS IN HEAVEN? – Did Elijah send a letter to King Jehoram after his ascension into heaven? – 2 CHRONICLES 21:12: “then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet….”

JEHOVAH’S WITNESS ARGUMENT:

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that no person who lived prior to the coming of Jesus Christ went to heaven. In order to support their ideology, they explain Elijah’s ascension into heaven as a temporary removal from one place on earth to another and claim that Elijah reappeared on earth to send a letter to King Jehoram (2 Chronicles 21:12), years after he went up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kings 2:11).1.

BIBLICAL RESPONSE:

There is no indication that Elijah went up to heaven before he sent the letter to King Jehoram of Judah. We read at 1 Kings 22:50 and 2 Kings 1:17 that Jehoram became King of Judah two years before a different King Jehoram became king of Israel. It wasn’t until the NEXT chapter at 2 Kings 2:11 (during the reign of this other King Jehoram of Israel) that we read of Elijah’s ascension into heaven.

It is important to note that nowhere does the Bible give a specific year for Elijah’s translation into heaven. We only know that it happened sometime during the reign of King Jehoram of Israel. Since King Jehoram of Judah (who received the letter from Elijah) had already been reigning two years by the time King Jehoram of Israel took the throne, Elijah could have easily sent his letter to King Jehoram of Judah before his ascension into heaven at 2 Kings 2:11.

2 Chronicles 21:19 notes that Jehoram of Judah began to experience the effects of the condemning words in Elijah’s letter two years before he died in the eighth year of his reign, so it is reasonable to conclude that Elijah’s letter and his subsequent transportation to heaven occurred sometime between Jehoram of Judah’s second to sixth year of reign.

Furthermore, if Elijah was planning to reappear on earth and resume his ministry after ascending into heaven for a few years, one would have to question why Elijah spoke of being “taken from” his apprentice Elisha and why he would have gone to the effort of requesting for Elisha a “double portion” of his spirit upon leaving.2. Such commitment to Elisha would hardly seem relevant if Elijah was to resume his work on earth only a few years after the whirlwind incident. Thus, we see that not only does the Scriptural account negate the Watchtower’s view of Elijah’s ascension, but the circumstances surrounding the event speak of the permanence of his ascension into heaven (that is in the Abraham’s bosom portion of Hades described at Luke 16) until he appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration at Matthew 17:3. We also read of other Hebrew Scripture (Old Testament) patriarchs dwelling in heaven at Hebrews 11:13-16 and Matthew 8:11."

http://www.4jehovah.org/do-old-testament-believers-go-to-heaven/
A very confusing conclusion to this article. Heaven and the good Hades (Abraham's bosom) are the same?

Michael The Disciple
11-25-2018, 10:37 AM
Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that no person who lived prior to the coming of Jesus Christ went to heaven.

It appears they are teaching what Jesus said about it.

John 3:13

And no one has ascended into Heaven except he who came down from Heaven, even the Son of man which is in Heaven.

1ofthechosen
11-25-2018, 03:34 PM
It appears they are teaching what Jesus said about it.

John 3:13

And no one has ascended into Heaven except he who came down from Heaven, even the Son of man which is in Heaven.

Or maybe you are teaching Jehovah's Witness Theology.

1ofthechosen
11-25-2018, 03:46 PM
A very confusing conclusion to this article. Heaven and the good Hades (Abraham's bosom) are the same?

I don't agree with that part but I whole heartedly believe what I read in 1 Kings 22:50 shows there is a Jehoram king of Judah Jehoshaphats son. Which was alive in the time of Elijah. Because Elijah wasn't translated until 2 Kings 2. So that's why the text MTD is standing on says clearly "THERE CAME A WRITING to him from Elijah the prophet" a writing past tense, and not a letter present tense. This had been determined on him years before this, and this was a reminder of that. Very simple.

Esaias
11-25-2018, 06:02 PM
A very confusing conclusion to this article. Heaven and the good Hades (Abraham's bosom) are the same?

The way I heard it in Word of Faith/charismatic circles is that Abraham's Bosom is a compartment of Hades where all the good OT saints went when they died, and when Jesus was in the grave He preached to everyone there, and then when He ascended to heaven He took Abraham's Bosom with Him, along with all the OT saints that were in it.

Nobody bothered explaining how a dead patriarch's lap became a sizable lobby in the afterlife, though. :)

1ofthechosen
11-25-2018, 06:05 PM
the way i heard it in word of faith/charismatic circles is that abraham's bosom is a compartment of hades where all the good ot saints went when they died, and when jesus was in the grave he preached to everyone there, and then when he ascended to heaven he took abraham's bosom with him, along with all the ot saints that were in it.

Nobody bothered explaining how a dead patriarch's lap became a sizable lobby in the afterlife, though. :)


roflol, or his shirt pocket either..

Esaias
11-28-2018, 04:33 PM
Some older research I did on Enoch and the myths surrounding him:

Update on the research:

Enoch in mystical Judaism was identified with Metatron, the "lesser YHVH". Early on this resulted in the infamous " Two Powers" heresy of early post-Second Temple Judaism. It is at the core of kaballah, which is Jewish Gnosticism.

But, Metatron has been linked to Mithra by some scholars. And, Mithraism was prevalent and even dominant in Asia Minor, especially the area where Colossae and Galatia are located. There was in Asia Minor a mingling of Persian Mithraism and Jewish syncretic mysticism/Gnostic mystery religion, giving rise to a very prominent Mystery Cult that after 70AD would be spread by Roman soldiers throughout much of the western Empire. In Asia Minor the family of Herod intermarried with various royal families of Anatolian kingdoms. These Anatolians were big on their Persian ancestry, and favoured Persian religion, aka Zoroastrianism in its "Mithraism" form. The Herodians were also big supporters of the Mithra Mystery cult, and apparently helped facilitate the combining of Jewish speculative occultism and Gnostic mythologies with that of Mithra and Zoroastrianism. There is a connection between Dionysus and Mithra here, and between Mithra-Metatron-"Enoch" as well.

Enoch supposedly was the first Astronomer Priest, but so was Zoroaster. So Enochian Judaism appears to be a Persian Zoriastrian-Mithraic syncretism, likely originating in Babylon during the PERSIAN rule under Darius, Cyrus, Xerxes, etc. The Persian religion of the Magi (Zoroastrianism) appears to have been given a Jewish flavor by some of the returning Exiles...

Also, found out that Mithra = Indra of the Vedic religion, and that Indra = Baal of the western Semitic religions. And, Baal of course was the Sun god of not only the Canaanites, but of the Phoenicians as well, and was even worshipped in Egypt as Amon.

And of course, Baal goes back to Nimrod, who apparently is celebrated in ancient Mesopotamian texts as the Mighty Hunter Who Fought Against the God-Who-Flooded-The-Earth.

Baal was the Storm God who supposedly rode on the storm-clouds of heaven, just like Indra. So the Son of Man in Dan 7 coming with the clouds of heaven appears to be a direct attack on Babylonian storm god BEL (Baal). Interestingly, this connects with Genesis 6 and all that, as the sons of El intermarried with daughters of Ish (man). The Son of Man is the Son of Adam, which would be SETH, the appointed replacement for Abel. The sons of Adam (Sethites) were intermarrying with others (Cainites?) except for the named line in Genesis culminating in Noah. Noah would be the Son of Adam/Man ie heir to the inheritance of Adam. Nimrod, son of Cush son of Ham, was apparently in opposition to the God of Shem. Shem being the heir of Noah and thus Son of Adam, his line (Shem's line) down to Abraham would be in opposition to the Nimrod/Cush dynasty.

In other words, a family squabble between the heir or Son of Adam and the sons or heirs of Nimrod. Nimrod became worshipped as Baal over time, so we see the basis for the ancient conflict between Baal and Jehovah as being between the Son/Heir of Adam and the would be heirs of Nimrod. Jesus is Son of Adam, heir to the inheritance of Adam through Noah and Shem, Abraham, etc.

The Baalism of Enochian Judaism was essentially asserting through occultic symbolism that Baal/Nimrod was the heavenly Son of Man and rightful heir of the world. The Gospel asserts that Jesus is that Son of Man. The destruction of the Temple (which was run by Herod's appointees, a spurious non-Zadokite priesthood) would be a clear signal that Jesus was the victor over Baal/Nimrod/Metatron/Mithra and the Herodian/Edomite dynasty of Baal worshipping false Jews. See Rev 2:9 and 3:9.