Kingdom, Millennium, and the Reign of the Saints

[Esaias]

I'm stealing a post from brother Benincasa over in the Eschatology section for discussion here:

Luke 1:33 is a prophecy concerning the Christ, and that His kingdom would endure through the ages. There are some who believe that Jesus will be crowned and rule only sometime is the distant future, but only for a small temporary time of one thousand years. Now, Luke 1:33 isn't just quoting an Old Testament verse, but a plethora of verses from the Old Testament which was an idea concerning the fulfillment of the Messianic plan of God.

Daniel 2:44

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

Daniel 7:13-14

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:18 Helpful? Yes No

But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Daniel 7:27

And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.

Psalm 45:6

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;

Psalm 89:35-37

Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David. His offspring shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me. Like the moon it shall be established forever, a faithful witness in the skies.” Selah

There is no such idea in the Old Testament which points to a temporary kingdom of only one thousand years.

Remarks:

1. As noted in my thread on The Son of Man, click here (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50706) Daniel 7 is a vision depicting firstly the Messiah's ascension to power and enthronement as King (which was fulfilled in the events surrounding His death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven, through the outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost, and culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem), and secondly the saints' reception of the kingdom as co-heirs with Messiah, which occurs simultaneously with Christ's ascension to the throne since we are spiritually seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Also, as noted in that same thread (I think?) this dominion being given to the saints manifests through a process in the earthly realm "in this life". That is to say, the kingdom reality works itself out in the church as the church develops and matures. It is working towards a climax and consummation, which brings me to the next several points.

2. The Millennium, as depicted in Revelation chapter 20, is unfortunately viewed by many as being the extent of "the kingdom". That is to say, a great many, being poisoned by the errors of dispensationalism in particular and futurism in general, are under the (false) impression that Jesus is "yet to be crowned", that the saints have no dominion at present and will not until the Millennium commences, and that the Millennium constitutes essentially the entirety of the "reign of the saints" in the Plan of God. This is unfortunate, upon which my next point will expand.

3. The Millennium is a vision contained within the Apocalypse, as part of a series of visions, representing spiritual truths in symbolic form. It comprises, in actuality, a small part of the visions of the Revelation. The Millennium begins with the destruction of the beast and false prophet and the binding of the dragon in the bottomless pit, and lasts until the loosing of the dragon and the final battle with the forces of "Gog and Magog", climaxing in the final judgment of all mankind. The Millennium thus has a beginning and an end, within the vision. HOWEVER, it is an error to identify the Millennium with the reign of the saints, en toto.

4. The Millennium comes to an end, but there is no indication the saints then cease to rule and reign. It is therefore erroneous to limit the rule of the saints to the strict boundaries of the Millennium period. The Millennium is therefore simply one particular phase of the kingdom in which the saints reign.

5. In the beginning of the Revelation, it is said:

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(Revelation 1:4-6)

According to the apostle John, Christ has already made His saints "kings and priests unto God". The saints are already reigning, because they have been made kings. It is therefore erroneous to identify the beginning of the reign of the saints with the beginning of the Millennium. The Millennium is not co-extensive with the kingdom, or the reign of the saints, either in regards to the start, or the end. Again, the Millennium is simply one particular phase of the reign of the saints. Therefore, the Millennium is simply one particular phase of the Kingdom. It is not the Kingdom in and of itself. The Kingdom is not the Millennium, and neither is the Millennium the Kingdom. The Kingdom contains within itself the Millennium, which is actually a small part of the Kingdom.

6. Whether you are premillennialist (as I am) or postmillennialist, it is an error to swallow the Kingdom, or the reign of the saints, into the Millennium, so as to imply that there is no reign of the saints until the Millennium. We need to understand that we have been made kings and priests unto God, and that this is a present reality. And because it is a present reality, that will extend and grow and increase into the future, it follows that if we fail to do our royal and priestly duty NOW, we will forfeit the opportunity to fulfill any future royal and priestly duties. Jesus taught that faithful execution of responsibilities when they are small, and in their beginning stages, is required for promotion to greater responsibility and authority (Luke 16:10-12). Therefore, we must conclude that we are, at present, in a testing phase in which we have been committed a certain amount of spiritual authority as kings and priests. And, that unless we faithfully execute those duties and responsibilities, and faithfully exercise that authority, we will not be given more. But, on the other hand, if we do fulfill our duties, and exercise our authority properly, we will enjoy a future expansion of that authority and corresponding responsibility.

7. The Scripture presents the Millennium as a period in which earthly governments (the nations) are submitted to the authority of God via the reign of the righteous saints of God. According to the vision, there is no rebellion against the Kingdom of God going on during that time. Since (as anyone can clearly see) that condition does not exactly and literally prevail at present, people make the erroneous conclusion that there is no reigning of the saints at present. This is error. Before the nations will be submitted to the righteous in such a way as to correspond to the conditions described by the Millennium, the saints must exercise the present reign they have been given.

8. The present reign of Christ over the nations is two-fold. First, as the Sovereign Deity, He holds Providential sway over all nations, determing their bounds, their histories, rise and fall, successes and failures, etc. But this has always been the case, and always will be the case. It is in the second sense, Christ's reign AS CHRIST, as the SON OF MAN and the SON OF DAVID, His MEDIATORIAL Reign, that concerns us in this discussion. That Mediatorial Reign is one in which He is heralded as King and Priest, seeking to draw to Himself by the Word of the Gospel those who will willingly submit to His rule. Christ is not at present sending fire from heaven down upon His enemies as the five cities of the plain experienced in Abraham's day. The growth and expansion of His Kingdom is primarily through evangelism and discipling (teaching) of the nations, not through forcible conquest and Divine retribution against His enemies. But this brings up the next point:

9. If the church considers it's mission to simply "get folks saved so they can make heaven their home" then the church is woefully failing in it's primary mission. The Great Commission charges the church with teaching the nations to OBEY CHRIST IN ALL THINGS, not getting them to "join the church" and pass their time waiting for death or a rapture. Our kingshipis a priestly kingship, modelled on Christ's, His being of the order of Melchizedek, who was both a priest and a king. Therefore, our reigning includes mediatorial priest duties. And the priest's job description includes that of teaching the Law (the Word of God) to the people, and promoting obedience.

So it is time we start looking into just what exactly is involved in the authority we have been given as kings and priests, HERE AND NOW, and begin to act accordingly. The Millennium will work itself out, but we need to work out the salvation we have been given, that is to say, we need to begin to manifest the salvation God has made available for us so the nations will see and hear and submit to God.

[Esaias]

So it is time we start looking into just what exactly is involved in the authority we have been given as kings and priests, HERE AND NOW, and begin to act accordingly.

And THIS is the direction I am hoping this thread will go. Thoughts?

[Esaias]

So it is time we start looking into just what exactly is involved in the authority we have been given as kings and priests, HERE AND NOW, and begin to act accordingly.

And THIS is the direction I am hoping this thread will go. Thoughts?

I am certain that many, in thinking about this topic, will immediately point to the authority we have been given over things like unclean spirits, sickness, etc. One thing I notice in Scripture is that this authority is given for a reason:

And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
(Matthew 10:7-8)

He gave His disciples power (dunamis, ability) over devils, sicknesses, etc, and this demonstration of Holy Ghost power was meant to help verify their message, that the Kingdom of God had arrived. It is not enough to simply tell people about the present reign of Christ, it is ordained that it should be demonstrated through the apostolic preaching of the Gospel, in the curing of demoniacs, the sick, and even the raising of the dead. When things like that accompany Gospel preaching, the Message goes forth with authority, and people are much more inclined to believe and receive.

When Paul preached on Mars' Hill, his preaching was largely unfruitful. At that particular situation, for whatever reason, there was no supernatural demonstration of the Spirit's power. All he had were reasoned arguments. And true though those reasoned arguments were, and as powerful as the Word is in and of itself, yet there is a much more successful effect when the Word is confirmed by signs and wonders. This was plainly demonstrated when Paul went to Lystra (Acs 14).

So, the power (dunamis, ability, might) we have been given in Christ over sicknesses and demons is NOT the extent of our royal and priestly authority (exousia). Rather, that supernatural power of the Holy Ghost is a means to an end, and that end is the exercising of our duties as kings and priests of the Messianic Kingdom of God, heralding Jesus as Lord and Christ. The dunamis is like the armed retinue of the king's official heralds and messengers. Their lawful authority to command the respect and obedience of the people is verified by the the sword and spear points of government-sanctioned military might. So it is with us, with sword and spear and chariot and other military accoutrements being replaced with the far more powerful enduements of Holy Ghost power over sickness and death itself.

This Holy Ghost power is necessary for us to exercise our authority, but we should keep in mind that the dunamis is a tool meant to help us accomplish our primary mission. It is not the authority itself, but is a confirmation of the authority we have been given.

[Esaias]

Another thought to consider:

The Priestly authority is held by Christ, and distributed to the Body, which is the church. Therefore, your priestly authority is not merely an individual authority, but part of the larger, collective authority of the church. It is the CHURCH that ministers as priest, and so therefore the church cannot fulfill its function properly unless you do your part.

Israel under the old covenant was a kingdom of priests. But the son of Aaron was the priest. And one of the priest's functions was to teach the Word. Yet, the son of Aaron could not be in every town, village, hamlet, and city, throughout Israel, every day, teaching everyone. Thus, the priestly duty was spread across many priests, and many more Levites. The priestly function was a collective function. It required everyone doing their part to get the job done.

So it is in the church. The priestly authority of the church requires the active participation of each member. Otherwise, the results are far less than they could be, far less than they should be.

Also, our priesthood is of the order of Melchizedek, which combines the kingship with the priesthood. So the royal authority of Christ is likewise disseminated throughout the church. Christ's reign in the earth through the church demands that each member of the Body exercise both the priestly and the royal authority, together with the other members, otherwise His reign is not moving forward through us as He intended.

[shag]

List different ways that we, as kings, can exercise this Spiritual authority.

Besides the “go preach and heal”...and concerning those, when/where/how are we to even do that, in our current environment...in example: I meet w a upc church 2-3x a week, the pastor does the preaching and most of the “hands on”. I teach my family at home some. So please list ways we are to “live out” the authority as kings in our daily lives. I’m sure there’s ways, I’d hust like to see a list of those ways...

[Apostolic1ness]

List different ways that we, as kings, can exercise this Spiritual authority.

Besides the “go preach and heal”...and concerning those, when/where/how are we to even do that, in our current environment...in example: I meet w a upc church 2-3x a week, the pastor does the preaching and most of the “hands on”. I teach my family at home some. So please list ways we are to “live out” the authority as kings in our daily lives. I’m sure there’s ways, I’d Just like to see a list of those ways...

There is nothing more powerful than the Word of God, this is our duty as saints.
when= all the time, where= everywhere, how=in faith. This duty must reach beyond the four walls of the church building, we have been given the ministry of reconciliation (bringing those that are far from God to God). We can get a little caught up in "Spiritual authority" and start to think our mission is to rebuke every spirit and find demons behind every bush. Yes we have power to cast out devils and to lay hands on the sick etc but this should not be the focus. The focus should be souls being led to Jesus. I've seen too many people focus on devils and power and authority that fall by the wayside and be overtaken by sin. Live for God with peace and Joy and desire to be a soul winner. Pray without ceasing, praise God like your still a new convert, honor the ministry, always believe God is able, fear nothing but trust God. yield to God's Spirit whenever he moves on you. Be faithful to church, refuse to allow a bad attitude to get a hold of you and shun sin. This is how you live like a King with authority. IMHO

[Michael The Disciple]

2. The Millennium, as depicted in Revelation chapter 20, is unfortunately viewed by many as being the extent of "the kingdom". That is to say, a great many, being poisoned by the errors of dispensationalism in particular and futurism in general, are under the (false) impression that Jesus is "yet to be crowned", that the saints have no dominion at present and will not until the Millennium commences, and that the Millennium constitutes essentially the entirety of the "reign of the saints" in the Plan of God. This is unfortunate, upon which my next point will expand.

In my experience most believers have never been taught about the millenium or perhaps not enough to get any reaction from them. The teachers I have heard that DO teach on it may focus on it as a part of the overall teaching of the kingdom but none have ever said that there was nothing AFTER it.

Personally I think it is a very important message. And yet its not the end of the story. It will be interesting to hear what people say about our reigning with Christ in this phase of the kingdom.

I would say as it relates to our future with Christ at his coming, our lives are being trained and fashioned in THIS TIME that we may rule and reign with him in a greater reality in the FUTURE reign which is to come.

[Esaias]

List different ways that we, as kings, can exercise this Spiritual authority.

Besides the “go preach and heal”...and concerning those, when/where/how are we to even do that, in our current environment...in example: I meet w a upc church 2-3x a week, the pastor does the preaching and most of the “hands on”. I teach my family at home some. So please list ways we are to “live out” the authority as kings in our daily lives. I’m sure there’s ways, I’d just like to see a list of those ways...

A few points to keep in mind:

1. Our "authority" is found in Christ, meaning our authority is actually His authority operating in and through us.

2. Christ's authority is extended to the church, His body, and therefore our authority is a corporate authority. That is, the focus is not so much our individual authority as priests and kings, but the CHURCH's co-authority as the manifestation and representative of Christ's authority.

3. Since the authority is a corporate authority, it operates through what each member supplies. That is to say, the church's authority requires the individual Christian doing is part. Just as the Levitical priesthood required the cooperation and joint efforts of the entire tribe of Levi, both the various families of the Levites, and the priests, and the direct heirs of Aaron. Responsibility was distributed across all these people, each had certain duties. Not everyone had the same job, but everyone contributed to doing the job of priestly ministry in Israel.

4. The authority of Christ is, at the present time, that of a priest after the order of Melchizedek, which combines the priestly and the royal functions in one. Christ is High Priest, and also King (Son of David). The church's authority therefore is of the same order - a royal priesthood in which the kingly and the priestly functions are combined. The individual believer therefore shares in that dual authority of priest and king.

You asked specifically about the authority as kings, so in this post I will focus on that aspect. But keep in mind the priestly side is just as important. So let's learn about what kingship, Biblically speaking, involves.

The book of Proverbs is an excellent starting place, as it is a book of wisdom written by a king for his son. So it is an excellent source of information for kings and "kings in waiting", that is, for anyone with royal authority.

Pro 14:35 The king's favour is toward a wise servant: but his wrath is against him that causeth shame.

We are to extend favour towards the wise, and to extend displeasure towards those who cause shame. This applies in a personal sense, in that as Christians we are to approve what is excellent, and disapprove what is foolish, sinful, disgraceful, etc. It also applies in a corporate sense, as the church as a whole is to do likewise. So when Christians fail to do this, such as when we try to be nicer than Jesus and not "offend" (upset) sinners, blasphemers, and those who actively oppose righteousness and who actively support ungodliness, foolishness, and unrighteousness, they fail to act as kings, they fail to exercise kingly authority. Once you begin to understand that, as a believer, you share in the royal authority of Christ, then you will begin to act like it. This will cause an effect on those around you. We can see this in the book of Acts when the apostles would rebuke the wicked, false apostles/teachers, and even government officials (keeping in mind that this does not mean that one can speak contemptuously of those in authority, for we must render honour to whom honour is due).

Pro_16:10 A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment.

As kings we are to speak the "divine sentence". We are to speak righteously, and declare the righteous judgments of God. This of course means we are certainly to have an opinion (this idea that Christians should not dare to offend people by holding opinions is nonsense). The judgments we declare are to be righteous, we are not to transgress in our judgments. This requires our judgments to be informed by the Word of God, and to be in conformity with the Word of God. We are to let our voice be heard, and not hide in a closet or in the four walls of the meeting house, but we are to SPEAK. And our speech is to be nothing less than the declaration of the Word of God, on any subject, in any situation, to any audience.

Pro_16:15 In the light of the king's countenance is life; and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain.

When we are conformed to the Word and wisdom of God, and manifest His life through us, then the favour we bestow on others brings life and refreshment. We can literally bring the Holy Ghost into people's lives, when they encounter us they should be encountering the power and grace of God. Our interactions with others bring life, real genuine spiritual life, into their situations. We must act accordingly so that we understand that one of our jobs as kings is to be a blessing to the people around us and with whom we providentially come into contact. People need to see and know that their encounters with the followers of Jesus Christ results in a blessing.

Pro_19:12 The king's wrath is as the roaring of a lion; but his favour is as dew upon the grass.

Here we see the favour of kings (as mentioned above), but this time contrasted with their anger or displeasure. People are afraid of the roaring of a lion, it scares them to realise there is a hungry or angry lion on the loose. The reason? Because there are negative consequences to falling into the paws of an upset lion. In the same way, people are afraid of angering a king, because there are consequences that happen when a king gets upset. In our case, the same is essentially true. Corporately, when the church opposes ungodliness and unrighteousness, there should be consequences. Our influence and effect on society should be such that people are afraid to promote brazen sin and wantonness, because the church opposes such insanity. The fact that society currently has no fear of God, and the church's opinions have no really significant impact on the decisions made by both policy makers and the masses, is a clear indication the church is not exercising its royal authority. We aren't acting like kings, we are acting like serfs at the mercy of conquering overlords. We need to change that.

Pro_20:8 A king that sitteth in the throne of judgment scattereth away all evil with his eyes.

One of the duties of a king is to "sit in the throne of judgment". So, we should be sitting in the throne of judgment, that is our destiny. Once in that position, where we are in fact judging, as kings we must put the fear of God into evildoers. That is, we must exercise righteous judgment that has no respect of persons, and our judgments must be such that evil is condemned and punished and righteousness is rewarded and exalted, in accordance with the will of God as revealed in His Word. Paul pointed out that we shall, in fact, judge the world (1 Corinthians 6:2). That being the case, "judgment begins at the house of God", so that as Paul taught in 1 Cor ch 5 and 6 we must first begin exercising that judgment within the assembly. We cannot expect to impact the world for righteousness if we can't impact the church for righteousness!

Pro 20:26 A wise king scattereth the wicked, and bringeth the wheel over them.

This one is fascinating. A wise king (not just any king, but a WISE king), wages war against the wicked successfully, and "brings the wheel over them". This literally depicts a king driving his chariot over the bodies of the routed enemies. As kings, we must wage war, but we must be wise, so that we may be successful. The warfare we wage is not carnal, and therefore the "wheel of the chariot" that we will wisely drive over the enemies is not a physical chariot wheel. The word "wheel" as used in this proverb is with only a few exceptions, used almost exclusively of either the wheels under the bases of the lavers in the Temple, or of the wheels that Ezekiel saw in his visions of the Divine Presence.

1 Kings chapter 7 contains a description of the Temple's ten lavers or washing basins, that stood on a wheeled base. The wheels were designed to look like chariot wheels. We scatter the enemies through the preaching of the Gospel and the clear proclamation of God's word, casting down imaginations and bringing every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. We bring the wheel over them when we bring the cleansing of the Gospel upon them, when they submit to baptism, when their lives are cleaned up by conformity to the word through the teaching ministry of the church.

Ezekiel contains several descriptions of the Divine Presence as being born by a chariot-like structure of "living creatures" replete with "wheels within wheels, full of eyes" and so forth. We bring the wheel over the scattered enemies when we bring the Divine Presence of God, the Holy Ghost, into the lives of those "scattered" or defeated by the preaching of the Word of God, when they submit to the power of Christ. Out of this defeat they rise in newness of life.

These things are part of the responsibility of the church, exercising its corporate authority as the Body of the Messiah in this world. But, each of us must appropriate these same realities into our faith and into our lives, and act on them (because faith without works is dead!), and thereby we individually help to extend Christ's authority to those around us.

[Esaias]

A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
(Psalms 110:1-7)


Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-25)

One point that needs to be understood about the present reign of Christ, and of our co-reign with Him: it is something that began as soon as He was seated at the right hand of God. This of course has already happened. It happened when He ascended into His Kingdom as described in Daniel 7. It is a PRESENT reign of Christ. And we are seated in the heavenlies WITH HIM NOW (see Ephesians 2:6). Which of course means we are presently reigning with Him NOW, during this phase of the Kingdom.

A lot of people think the reigning means there are no obstacles, no enemies. Yet the prophecy, and the apostle's interpretation of the prophecy, clearly show that the reign continues "in the midst of" the enemies. The reign is for the purpose of waging war against the rebels until they are submitted to Christ.

Therefore, we should expect conflict during our present co-reign with Christ. That the saints reign presently does not mean there is no opposition to the Kingdom of God. If anything, it means the contrary. The present co-reigning of the saints with Christ means we are involved with Christ in His war against His enemies, and it means we are involved with Christ in subduing His enemies.

The significance of this ought not to be missed.

It is the DOMINION MANDATE of the Church. That is, the church should go forth and advance the dominion of God, in fulfillment of the Great Commission:


For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
(2 Corinthians 10:3-6)

As individual Christians, members of the Body of Christ, it is our duty to do our part to see to it that the Church wages this spiritual warfare successfully. The Church can really do no more than its members do. Thus, each has a role to play, and a part to fulfill, a duty to perform. As individuals, we must each fight the good fight and wage a good warfare (see 1 Timothy 1:18). How do we do that? How did the apostles do it?

Understand the targets. You cannot wage war without knowing what your targets are. According to the apostle, the targets are essentially "imaginations". The "high things" that "exalt themselves against the knowledge of God". "Every thought" must be captured and brought to obedience to Christ. This of course begins with oneself. The warrior must first defeat himself before he can defeat others, because his biggest enemy is himself.

But it also extends to others. A soldier does not fight against every single enemy on the entire battlefield, but rather he has to deal with the enemy soldiers in front of him, within reach of his weapons, in his personal "area of operations" (AO). So it is with us. We have people in our personal lives, people with whom we are in contact. This may be our wives, children, the members of our household. Our coworkers, our neighbours, our friends and extended family are also included. As is pretty much everyone with whom we come into contact and have an opportunity to interact with.

They have strong holds in their lives, in their minds, in their hearts. These strong holds, these fortified positions, are the imaginations, ideas, thought processes, concepts, the very paradigms that govern their lives, that rule over them and have dominion over them. These things must be destroyed, taken captive, so the people can be freed and brought into a state of loyal obedience to the rightful King How can this be done?

It requires the Holy Ghost anointed application of the Word of God.

Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity: Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:
(Psalms 64:2-3)

Spiritual warfare involves weapons. The enemies of God and His Church have swords, which according to the word are their tongues.
This means their words, their speech, is a weapon that is designed to bring death and destruction. Much like Goliath who cursed David "by his gods". This is the truth about "curses" and the "evil eye". Curses are real, but not what people think. The television, Hollyweird, and the media, politicians, all of them use WORDS TO BRING SPIRITUAL DEATH. Their words are the swords they use to wound the unsuspecting, the innocent, the foolish, and even the righteous who wander in this life unawares of how this spiritual warfare actually works.

But we also have a sword, a Divine weapon that we better learn how to wield. Ephesians 6 speaks of the armour we have available to us from God, and it includes "the sword of the Spirit". It identifies the sword as the "rhema of God". Rhema is a term that means a logos (word) that has been actually vocalised and spoken. People think the Bible is the "sword" but that's not true. Plenty of people have Bibles, read them, and even study them, and yet they fall in battle continuously and are routinely defeated. No, it's not just the written Word, it is the SPOKEN Word that serves as the offensive weapon of the Spirit.

The Word must be proclaimed by the individual Christian, and by the whole church. This isn't just about "pulpiteering", the sword needs to be utilised whenever a Christian finds himself in conflict with the world. Jesus when tempted by the devil did not simply read the Bible, or think on it, He SPOKE it with authority. The apostles proclaimed the Word with authority, unashamedly, everywhere they went, to everyone they met. And they turned the world order upside down.

One blatant and recent example: A lot of Christians opposed the whole "gay marriage legalisation" movement, but for the most part they were utterly useless and weak and ineffective. Largely due to the fact they did not wield the Sword God had given them. They wasted their time arguing that "the constitution doesn't grant the authority" or that the "courts ought not to legislate" or that "it is bad for society". They argued the constitution, state and federal law, they argued the Bill of Rights, they argued political considerations, social considerations... everything and anything BUT THE WORD OF GOD. God has already legislated the subject - sodomy is illegal, a capital crime, no less than murder, adultery, fornication, or idolatry. So Christians for the most part failed to pick up the sword and use it, and predictably had a net zero result.

We cannot expect God to fight our battles and give us victory if we refuse to use the tools He has given us.

[Esaias]

So in keeping with the theme that Christ's Present Reign includes subduing His enemies (and thus it involves warfare), we need to understand the weapons and armament which we have been given for the successful prosecution of the war.

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
(Ephesians 6:10-18)

We have both defensive weapons, and offensive weapons. And some of our implements of war are both defensive and offensive. The purpose of the armour is to be able to withstand in the evil day (the day of battle). That is, to be able to withstand the attacks of the enemy, and having done all, to stand, that is, to be the "last man standing", to be victorious.

The implements are as follows:

1. Truth.
2. Righteousness.
3. The preparation of the Gospel.
4. Faith.
5. Salvation.
6. The Spirit, the Rhema of God.

We have to have all these things in order to both withstand the onslaughts of the enemy, as well as to be victorious in the fight, to be the victors, the winners.

The defensive implements of spiritual warfare are Truth, Righteousness, Faith, and Salvation. These are essential elements of the DEFENSE against the enemies' weapons. Remember, the enemy does have weapons:

Psalm 42:10 As with a sword in my bones, mine enemies reproach me; while they say daily unto me, Where is thy God?

Psalm 57:4 My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.

Psalm 64:3 Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:

The primary offensive weapons of the enemy are their words. They speak lies, deceptions, slanders, reproaches, blasphemies against God and His righteousness. But if we are firm in the Truth (God's Word), if we are clothed with Righteousness through Christ's redemption (having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water), if we are walking in Faith (believing the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and His Messiah, JESUS), and holding fast the Salvation which He has wrought for us whereby we know that we belong to Him and that HE ALONE IS OUR GOD and SAVIOUR, then the fiery darts, swords, and spears of Christ's enemies cannot defeat us. If on the other hand, we do NOT have Truth, righteousness, Faith, and Salvation, we will become victims of their weapons - the enemy propaganda, their WORDS - and succumb to their ideas. We will fall in battle.

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

The apostle here alludes to the footwear used by soldiers to protect their feet, enabling them to both march long distances as well as to purchase and maintain a steady foothold on the rough and unpredictable terrain of the battlefield. The "preparation" is a specific term, ἑτοιμασίᾳ, which is used in the Septuagint Bible (used by the apostles) in Zechariah 5:11 to describe the foundation or base upon which the symbolic ephah was to be established. It therefore is speaking of the foundation or base, which is the Gospel of peace.

Peace, in the context of warfare in the first century Roman Empire, was a term referring to the victory of Roman forces and the establishment of Roman rule over the conquered, whereby the vanquished were essentially "converted" to the Roman way of civilisation. Hence, the term "Pax Romana", or "Roman Peace", that is to say, the rule or dominion of Rome over the known world. The Gospel or good news "of peace" is a reference to the Gospel of the Kingdom or dominion of God, with Jesus as Lord and Christ (King). The Kingdom of God brings the "peace of Christ", which is not about stillness or lack of troubling thoughts, but about the reign and rule of Christ. It is about DOMINION and VICTORY.

In order for the saints to be capable of the long march ahead of us, we have to hold fast to the GOSPEL of the "Peace of Christ", that is, the DOMINION OF CHRIST. Without understanding, and believing in, the inevitable and unstoppable increase of the Reign of Christ and the Kingdom of God, the church will not be capable of running the race to the end. This is a "long march", a protracted warfare. It does not begin and end within a short time, but has been going on since the time of John the Baptist (Luke 16:16) and continues to today, and will continue to "the End". Without a clear view of the Endgame, of the ultimate Goal, and of the inevitability and unconquerability of our Christ's Kingdom, we will be easily fatigued, demoralised, distracted by other things, and when we meet the enemy in battle we will not have a solid foothold. Our steps will be unsure and erratic, and we will ourselves be unstable and liable to misstep, which exposes us to swift defeat.

But holding fast the GOSPEL of God's Kingdom, and of Christ's PRESENT and EVER EXPANDING REIGN, we can take the "long view" and endure the long march. We will have sure footing when we engage the enemy because know where we stand and why. And most importantly, that foundation will be the TRUE AND CORRECT GOOD NEWS preached by Christ and his apostles. A lot of our efforts have had limited success, or outright failure, in advancing the DOMINION of Christ, because so many have misunderstood the Gospel. We think it has to do with dying and going to heaven, or that it is limited to some sort of divinely appointed method of self improvement (extreme pietism). No, it is the good news of the Kingdom of God (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Matthew 24:14, Mark 1:14-15, etc). And what is a kingdom? It is the dominion of a king. And a dominion is a RULE, a REIGN. The good news is that Jesus Christ has brought us to the Dominion, rule, and Reign of God, that it is eternal, undefeatable, and shall ever increase:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
(Isaiah 9:6-7)

[Esaias]

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
(Ephesians 6:10-18)

Putting on the armour of God is primarily done through prayer. It is not done by reading about it, and then doing a mental checklist ("Yep, I got salvation, righteousness, truth...good to go!"). The apostle says "put on the armour of God... praying..." It is through prayer that the armour is put on. Prayer is a means not just of talking to God (He already knows everything we could say or think so prayer is not for the purpose of informing God of anything). Prayer is actually for our benefit, it changes us. By praying, we SPEAK THE WORD OF GOD into our own lives, and into the lives of others. And by this means the saint is equipped and armed for battle.

The prayer and supplication must be "in the Spirit". This does not mean simply "in tongues", but it must be Spirit led and born out of the Spirit's presence in our life:

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

In one place, the Spirit causes us to cry to God "Abba, Father". In the other place, it is the Spirit itself which is said to cry "Abba, Father." In other words, the Spirit in us causes us to speak forth certain things, and this is itself said to be the voice of the Spirit. Which, by the way, is nothing less than the RHEMA OF GOD, for it is God speaking in and through us by His Spirit.

We put on the armour of God through anointed Spirit-led prayer in which the Spirit causes us to speak forth the truths of our Salvation, Righteousness, Truth, the Gospel we have received, and so forth. In Spirit led prayer we affirm these truths, we speak them forth, we declare them. This enables us to be individually equipped to engage the enemy in battle. The battle will require the application or use of the armour, but before we can properly use the armour we have to put the armour on. And we must not only make prayer and supplication for ourselves, but we must persevere and do the work of praying for all our brothers and sisters as well.

Time for a Holy Ghost prayer meeting...

[Esaias]

It is of course the duty of a king to make war against the enemies of his people. As we have seen, Christ's Present Reign involves a war of conquest against his enemies, and we participate in that. But this warfare is not limited to the kingly authority and role. Remember, Christ is a Priest-King, like Melchizedek. And in the law, we see a type of this, for the priests were intimately involved in Israel's manner of waging war, and in fact they were indispensible to Israel achieving victory against her enemies:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee. When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward. When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys. But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm. And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations. And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies. Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.
(Numbers 10:1-10)

Okay, let's unpack this. Israel was to have two trumpets made of a solid work of silver each. These trumpets were to be used by the priests, the sons of Aaron, during the wilderness wanderings to summon the tribes, or (at other times) the heads of the tribes, to the tabernacle of meeting. They were also to be used to signal that the people were to break camp and begin marching out on the next leg of their journey. There was a distinction in the sounds made by the trumpets: One such sound was "an alarm", and it was obviously distinguished from some other sounding or cadence which was "not an alarm". The two basic types of trumpet blasts were used for different purposes, and thus the people could understand what was called for depending on the type of sounds the trumpets made.

Silver was a primary form of money in the ancient world, more common than gold. It was in essence the "common currency" for numerous peoples and nations. Joseph was sold for twenty pieces of silver. The Tabernacle was built of wood, overlaid with gold and cloths, with the boards set in sockets made of silver. It is likely the half shekel ransom money every male Israelite had to pay was paid in silver. There are many truths hidden in the typology of the Scripture's use of silver, and this is not the time or place to get into all that here. What I want to zero in on is the use of trumpets by the priests in the event of war.

The priests were to blow an alarm with the two silver trumpets, and it is said that as a result of this, Israel would be remembered before Jehovah, and would be saved from their enemies. This is not to suggest that God had somehow "forgotten" them (God does NOT have memory lapses). Rather, it speaks of them going to war "against the enemy that oppresseth you." The enemy could not oppress Israel unless Israel had some kind of "sin in the camp" (Deuteronomy 28, etc). Thus, they had been "forgotten" by God in the sense that He had allowed them to fall into the hands of their enemies. If that were the case, and they went out to war against their oppressors, the priests had to blow the trumpets. This would bring them up in remembrance before God, that is, He would once again take notice of them and fight for them, giving them victory.

Also, whenever the priests made offerings during any of the Appointed times (feast days, etc), they were to blow with the trumpets, so that the offerings would "be a memorial for you before your God." That is, the offerings would then serve as a covenant reminder in the presence of God, so that the offerings would be acceptable to God and the covenant relationship would be maintained.

Now what kind of truths can we learn from this?

Part of the priestly function in the church is to provide a memorial before God on behalf of God's people. By sounding the trumpets, God's people would be remembered before God, their offerings (worship) would be accepted before God, the covenant relationship would be maintained. So how does the church "sound the silver trumpets" in order to enable victory in battle, and procure acceptable worship?

Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted. For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
(Psalms 89:15-18)


And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
(Exodus 19:16-20)

God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet. Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises. For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness. The princes of the people are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted.
(Psalms 47:5-9)

The trumpet blast represents the announcement of the presence of God, and His people being gathered to meet Him. In the church that announcement is to be made. It must be by divine appointment, that is, Spirit led. It must be for the purpose of gathering the people together TO MEET GOD. This is what enables the church's worship (offerings) to be acceptable, as a memorial before God. This is what presents the people before God, and serves as a memorial before God so that He enforces His covenant and gives them victory.

So how is the announcement to be made? I suppose it could simply be literally announced. But that would probably amount to a sputtering tweet on a kazoo, not a prolonged, clear, certain attention-arresting trumpet call. The call has to be given in the Spirit. It has to go up by prayer, and come down by prayer, until it saturates the entire congregation. There has to be a sound from Heaven, a Holy Ghost thundering of Divine power, that calls each to positive attention to the manifest, immediate presence of God.

Before the congregation can go out to battle, and expect to win, the trumpet must be sounded. It must be sounded to announce the troops are to be assembled for the fight. It must be sounded to announce the going forth of the armies of the Lord. It must be sounded on the march, and as the battle is joined, to notify everyone that GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF HAS STEPPED ONTO THE BATTLEFIELD ON ISRAEL'S BEHALF. Our Glorious, Divine Champion has come down upon the earth. Our God has arisen to smite the Adversary and deliver His people. "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered!" (Psalm 68:1)

And before the individual saint can go forth to battle, as a reigning co-heir with Christ, to fulfill his royal responsibilities and operate in royal authority, he must do his duty as priest, and SOUND THE TRUMPET, announcing by Holy Ghost anointed prayer and proclamation that Christ has him in remembrance, and will give the victory.

[Amanah]

I think the first step is to become living sacrifices denying the world and being conformed to the word, not the world. If too many people are distracted by entertainment, coming to church to pray through and feel God, then returned to a distracted lifestyle, we cant get there.

Romans 12 NKJV

12 I beseech[a] you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient[c] in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given[d] to hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have[e] regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 Therefore


“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

[Amanah]

We are ambassadors for Christ. As a church we are seated with Him in heavenly places. We should be going forth, praying in the Spirit, speaking His word, as instruments for His will to be manifest, like Joshua, every place we set our feet. How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel. The gospel is the power of God for salvation and deliverance.

Ephesians 1:15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

If the Old testament saints conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised. How much more should the church be impacting our world with Christ in us?

Hebrews 11:32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

This coming year let's go forth boldly, praying and speaking His Word, taking back ground that is promised to us through His Word.
I intend to make an impact in Sebastian in this coming year through prayer and fasting and speaking His word in this city.

[Esaias]

We are ambassadors for Christ. As a church we are seated with Him in heavenly places. We should be going forth, praying in the Spirit, speaking His word, as instruments for His will to be manifest, like Joshua, every place we set our feet. How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel. The gospel is the power of God for salvation and deliverance.



If the Old testament saints conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised. How much more should the church be impacting our world with Christ in us?



This coming year let's go forth boldly, praying and speaking His Word, taking back ground that is promised to us through His Word.
I intend to make an impact in Sebastian in this coming year through prayer and fasting and speaking His word in this city.

AWESOME!!! :highfive :thumbsup :yourock

[Esaias]

I'm surprised more people dont have anything to contribute to this subject. Should I be surprised?

[Esaias]

Bump... :)

[jediwill83]

So Im reading this and its clicking loudly into place in my spirit.


Way back you asked "What should this look like?" I think that was the question.


Its always bothered me how every church Ive attended always behaved as if at any moment it could all be over.


Its drilled into us this idea that we need to be prepared to leave....be packed up and you and I both know that the logistics and mindset behind those two vastly different modes is like daylight and dark.


Getting ready to leave keeps us uninvested in where we are or who we are around. We are kept on such emotional high alert that getting bogged down and emotionally investing in establishing a position of strength logistically is counterproductive....such is the pitfalls of the pretrib position.


The position you are presenting "fits"...I know that we dont use that logic necessarily to establish doctrine...all Im saying is that in light of what you have presented it makes everything...our search for purpose...why are we here? who are we? what are we? what should we be doing?....it makes so much more sense.


My problem hasnt been with taking the easy way and the path of least resistance... Ive been playing with the rules Ive been presented and they havent clicked with me....there was something that just didnt fit...the problem is that Ive been playing by the wrong rules and Ive had to find the Truth...Truth like this...



This may sound like mad ramblings...its not...its just a stream of consciousness as Im trying to process.


Sounds like a lot more like a bloodless Jihad.


If some test pilot for a carpet factory can invent a crazy religion and take over the massive amounts of land converting their citizens...how much more should we be progressing being the hands, feet and mouth of the one true and living God?


Our priorities have been waaaaaaay off.


The change will have to come not from the pulpit but from Godly fathers and husbands leading their families.


We literally have to see ourselves as the king of our own kingdom that has been entrusted to by God....our kingdom may just be a population of 2 or 20+*lookin at you Duggers* but restablishing the direct nurture and admonition and removing all other corrupting outside influences...basically establishing a beachhead...if this is to be an invasion...lets get tactical.


This is where homesteading and being debt free and being self employed would be huge....not a slave to money and financially independent would be huge....more later got a passenger. Please dont think im weird for all this rambling.

[Esaias]

So Im reading this and its clicking loudly into place in my spirit.


Way back you asked "What should this look like?" I think that was the question.


Its always bothered me how every church Ive attended always behaved as if at any moment it could all be over.


Its drilled into us this idea that we need to be prepared to leave....be packed up and you and I both know that the logistics and mindset behind those two vastly different modes is like daylight and dark.


Getting ready to leave keeps us uninvested in where we are or who we are around. We are kept on such emotional high alert that getting bogged down and emotionally investing in establishing a position of strength logistically is counterproductive....such is the pitfalls of the pretrib position.


The position you are presenting "fits"...I know that we dont use that logic necessarily to establish doctrine...all Im saying is that in light of what you have presented it makes everything...our search for purpose...why are we here? who are we? what are we? what should we be doing?....it makes so much more sense.


My problem hasnt been with taking the easy way and the path of least resistance... Ive been playing with the rules Ive been presented and they havent clicked with me....there was something that just didnt fit...the problem is that Ive been playing by the wrong rules and Ive had to find the Truth...Truth like this...



This may sound like mad ramblings...its not...its just a stream of consciousness as Im trying to process.


Sounds like a lot more like a bloodless Jihad.


If some test pilot for a carpet factory can invent a crazy religion and take over the massive amounts of land converting their citizens...how much more should we be progressing being the hands, feet and mouth of the one true and living God?


Our priorities have been waaaaaaay off.


The change will have to come not from the pulpit but from Godly fathers and husbands leading their families.


We literally have to see ourselves as the king of our own kingdom that has been entrusted to by God....our kingdom may just be a population of 2 or 20+*lookin at you Duggers* but restablishing the direct nurture and admonition and removing all other corrupting outside influences...basically establishing a beachhead...if this is to be an invasion...lets get tactical.


This is where homesteading and being debt free and being self employed would be huge....not a slave to money and financially independent would be huge....more later got a passenger. Please dont think im weird for all this rambling.

:yourock

[jediwill83]

If its true that we are currently ruling and reigning with Him and that our faithfulness and aptitude is being evaluated...being in debt would be a rookie mistake....if we cannot wield something that only reflects the will of its user...completely neutral...neither good nor evil...how can we lead people much less rule over them?

[Esaias]

If its true that we are currently ruling and reigning with Him and that our faithfulness and aptitude is being evaluated...being in debt would be a rookie mistake....if we cannot wield something that only reflects the will of its user...completely neutral...neither good nor evil...how can we lead people much less rule over them?

The test, I believe, is how we handle our current situation, not so much what our current situation is. So, having debt is one thing. What we do with that is key, however.

There are some situations where going into or taking on a debt is a wise thing. Although most debt is likely unnecessary and a hindrance.

[Amanah]

Bro Esaias,

Would you teach a little on what arguments people use to teach that people are going to heaven rather than that the Kingdom of Heaven is and will continue to be on earth and how you refute them.

Such as Enoch, Elijah, the transfiguration, the cloud of witnesses, ect.

[Esaias]

Bro Esaias,

Would you teach a little on what arguments people use to teach that people are going to heaven rather than that the Kingdom of Heaven is and will continue to be on earth and how you refute them.

Such as Enoch, Elijah, the transfiguration, the cloud of witnesses, ect.

What is the soul of a man?

Genesis 2:7 KJV
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You are a soul. Your soul is your life, your "being a living creature". It is not some part that floats away to the ethereal realm like all pagans believed.

Genesis 3:4 KJV
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Lie of the Serpent is that you will not surely die. All pagan religions comes from that source, and that lie. Thus all pagan religions teach natural immortality. They teach you leave your body and go somewhere, for good or ill, as a ghost or disembodied person (even though you still have a non-material body of sorts, but most don't think through the contradictions there far enough to see the errors).

What happens when a person dies? Do they continue as before, just in a new form and a new place? Are they aware of what's going on? What are they doing and thinking?

Isaiah 38:18 KJV
For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Psalm 146:3-4 KJV
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. [4] His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalm 30:9 KJV
What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Psalm 88:10-12 KJV
Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. [11] Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? [12] Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

(Notice, in that last passage, the dead praising God presupposes they must arise, that is, resurrect.)

Psalm 6:4-5 KJV
Return, O Lord, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. [5] For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

According to the Bible, there is no activity nor awareness or consciousness in death. This is why death is likened to sleep:

Job 14:10-15 KJV
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? [11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. [13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] If a man die, shall he live again ? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. [15] Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Death is not the end, because there will be a resurrection. As a man lies down and goes to sleep and is inactive and oblivious until he awakens the next day, so humans lie down in death and are inactive and oblivious until they are awakened by Christ at the resurrection:

John 5:28-29 KJV
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

A person is a uniting of breath of life (ruach, pneuma, SPIRIT) and flesh, resulting in a living soul, a living creature.

Psalm 104:27-30 KJV
These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. [28] That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. [29] Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. [30] Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 KJV
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

But the difference between man and beast is this: man, being made in the image of God, has a different fate:

Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When a person dies, they cease to be a living soul. They are DEAD, not alive. The flesh returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God. The person is said to be asleep, without conscious awareness, awaiting the resurrection (a reuniting of the person's flesh and spirit so that they live again).

The Bible everywhere presents resurrection as the hoped for destiny of man, not "going to heaven at death". The Bible everywhere presents man as truly mortal, not "really immortal" as pagans and catholic "Christians" believe.

Hebrews 11:5 KJV
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

And yet Enoch eventually died:

Hebrews 11:13 KJV
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Enoch did not go up to heaven:

John 3:13 KJV
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The same applies to Elijah. Here's what happened AFTER he was caught up by a tornado:

2 Chronicles 21:12 KJV
And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

He wasn't caught up and transformed and been sitting up in heaven all this time.

The Transfiguration was a vision of future glorification:

Matthew 17:9 KJV
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Resurrection is the endgame, and the earth is where it happens:

2 Chronicles 6:18 KJV
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Will He? Indeed He will:

Revelation 21:2-3 KJV
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Just not in some building made with hands.

Psalm 115:16 KJV
The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's : but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Acts 17:26 KJV
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

The earth has always been our home. And it shall be our home in the future:

Psalm 37:11 KJV
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Matthew 5:5 KJV
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Romans 4:13 KJV
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Psalm 25:12-13 KJV
What man is he that feareth the Lord ? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. [13] His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 82:8 KJV
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Psalm 2:7-8 KJV
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. [8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Jeremiah 23:5 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Revelation 5:9-10 KJV
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; [10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Daniel 7:27 KJV
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The wicked will be destroyed at the judgment and will be no more:

Revelation 20:11-15 KJV
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Psalm 37:9-11 KJV
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be : yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:20 KJV
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 37:22 KJV
For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Psalm 37:28-29 KJV
For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. [29] The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Psalm 37:34 KJV
Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

Psalm 37:37-38 KJV
Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. [38] But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Malachi 4:2-3 KJV
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. [3] And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

[Esaias]

If the saints shall inherit the earth, and if the saints shall be immortal, then the saints shall inherit the earth as part of their immortal and eternal possession.

If the goal is to "make it to heaven" then resurrection would be a move backwards from that "Beatific" state. What would be the point, and who would even want it?

[diakonos]

If the saints shall inherit the earth, and if the saints shall be immortal, then the saints shall inherit the earth as part of their immortal and eternal possession.

If the goal is to "make it to heaven" then resurrection would be a move backwards from that "Beatific" state. What would be the point, and who would even want it?

I never understood why people in heaven would get their bodies back at the rapture. Just odd.

[Amanah]

If the saints shall inherit the earth, and if the saints shall be immortal, then the saints shall inherit the earth as part of their immortal and eternal possession.

If the goal is to "make it to heaven" then resurrection would be a move backwards from that "Beatific" state. What would be the point, and who would even want it?

Thank you!

[shag]

What is the soul of a man?

Genesis 2:7 KJV
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You are a soul. Your soul is your life, your "being a living creature". It is not some part that floats away to the ethereal realm like all pagans believed.

Genesis 3:4 KJV
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Lie of the Serpent is that you will not surely die. All pagan religions comes from that source, and that lie. Thus all pagan religions teach natural immortality. They teach you leave your body and go somewhere, for good or ill, as a ghost or disembodied person (even though you still have a non-material body of sorts, but most don't think through the contradictions there far enough to see the errors).

What happens when a person dies? Do they continue as before, just in a new form and a new place? Are they aware of what's going on? What are they doing and thinking?

Isaiah 38:18 KJV
For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Psalm 146:3-4 KJV
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. [4] His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalm 30:9 KJV
What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Psalm 88:10-12 KJV
Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. [11] Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? [12] Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

(Notice, in that last passage, the dead praising God presupposes they must arise, that is, resurrect.)

Psalm 6:4-5 KJV
Return, O Lord, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. [5] For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

According to the Bible, there is no activity nor awareness or consciousness in death. This is why death is likened to sleep:

Job 14:10-15 KJV
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? [11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. [13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] If a man die, shall he live again ? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. [15] Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Death is not the end, because there will be a resurrection. As a man lies down and goes to sleep and is inactive and oblivious until he awakens the next day, so humans lie down in death and are inactive and oblivious until they are awakened by Christ at the resurrection:

John 5:28-29 KJV
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

A person is a uniting of breath of life (ruach, pneuma, SPIRIT) and flesh, resulting in a living soul, a living creature.

Psalm 104:27-30 KJV
These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. [28] That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. [29] Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. [30] Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 KJV
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

But the difference between man and beast is this: man, being made in the image of God, has a different fate:

Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When a person dies, they cease to be a living soul. They are DEAD, not alive. The flesh returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God. The person is said to be asleep, without conscious awareness, awaiting the resurrection (a reuniting of the person's flesh and spirit so that they live again).

The Bible everywhere presents resurrection as the hoped for destiny of man, not "going to heaven at death". The Bible everywhere presents man as truly mortal, not "really immortal" as pagans and catholic "Christians" believe.

Hebrews 11:5 KJV
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

And yet Enoch eventually died:

Hebrews 11:13 KJV
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Enoch did not go up to heaven:

John 3:13 KJV
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The same applies to Elijah. Here's what happened AFTER he was caught up by a tornado:

2 Chronicles 21:12 KJV
And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

He wasn't caught up and transformed and been sitting up in heaven all this time.

The Transfiguration was a vision of future glorification:

Matthew 17:9 KJV
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Resurrection is the endgame, and the earth is where it happens:

2 Chronicles 6:18 KJV
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

Will He? Indeed He will:

Revelation 21:2-3 KJV
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Just not in some building made with hands.

Psalm 115:16 KJV
The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's : but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Acts 17:26 KJV
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

The earth has always been our home. And it shall be our home in the future:

Psalm 37:11 KJV
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Matthew 5:5 KJV
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Romans 4:13 KJV
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Psalm 25:12-13 KJV
What man is he that feareth the Lord ? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. [13] His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 82:8 KJV
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Psalm 2:7-8 KJV
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. [8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Jeremiah 23:5 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Revelation 5:9-10 KJV
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; [10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Daniel 7:27 KJV
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The wicked will be destroyed at the judgment and will be no more:

Revelation 20:11-15 KJV
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Psalm 37:9-11 KJV
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be : yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:20 KJV
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 37:22 KJV
For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Psalm 37:28-29 KJV
For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. [29] The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Psalm 37:34 KJV
Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

Psalm 37:37-38 KJV
Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. [38] But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Malachi 4:2-3 KJV
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. [3] And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Good stuff Esaias
What is the meaning of “translated”?
(Specifically as it relates to Enoch)

[coksiw]

I actually believe that there is a soul that departs from the body and comes to a place awaiting resurrection, in Christ, or in some sort of prison people call today "hell".

I also believe and contend in my preachings that we are meant to be risen and inherit the earth, so I agree 100% with Esaias. God's plan is not for us to living in "heaven" forever more, while the earth is given to the wicked forever. Yet, I find no conflict between the believes of righteous inheriting the earth and departed souls ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I personally believe that when the saints raise, the departed souls period will feel like a beautiful dream in their memories. You have to trust God with the details ;). "For this is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide for evermore."



Now, the thing about Elijah writing a letter after being lifted is quite interesting :)

[shag]

I actually believe that there is a soul that departs from the body and comes to a place awaiting resurrection, in Christ, or in some sort of prison people call today "hell".

I also believe and contend in my preachings that we are meant to be risen and inherit the earth, so I agree 100% with Esaias. God's plan is not for us to living in "heaven" forever more, while the earth is given to the wicked forever. Yet, I find no conflict between the believes of righteous inheriting the earth and departed souls ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I personally believe that when the saints raise, the departed souls period will feel like a beautiful dream in their memories. You have to trust God with the details ;). "For this is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide for evermore."



Now, the thing about Elijah writing a letter after being lifted is quite interesting :)


IYO, how long as this been going on? - how long have these souls been waiting?

I’m thinking that thousands of Christian souls to be consciously waiting somewhere for like 2000 years or more, would be an INCREDIBLY long time.

Now if they were sleeping, that’d be a different story

[Esaias]

Good stuff Esaias
What is the meaning of “translated”?
(Specifically as it relates to Enoch)

The word is "metatithemi" which means to be moved from one place to another or transferred. So God took him from wherever he was to some other place:

Genesis 5:21-24 KJV
And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: [22] And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: [23] And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: [24] And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

"All the days of Enoch were 365 years", not 3365 and counting.

He "was not":

Genesis 42:13 KJV
And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not.

(They believed Joseph was dead, not missing or up in heaven.)

Matthew 2:18 KJV
In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

(The Holy Innocents were dead, not missing or up in heaven.)

Isaiah 57:1 KJV
The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

Enoch was taken by God so he didn't suffer an evil fate. But he did not go up alive to heaven to never die. If that were the case, he shouldn't be in Hebrews 11, because the whole point of the apostle is all these OT saintly examples of faith DIED WITHOUT RECEIVING THE PROMISES that are found in Christ. If Enoch never died and was made immortal then he certainly DID receive, more than anyone else since.