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Truthseeker
12-18-2018, 07:43 AM
Yea or nay? We have some brothers who carry during church services. I guess in case those protective angels we preach about are a little late. :hanky

Is it wrong to kill others to save your own life or others?

thoughts?

Apostolic1ness
12-18-2018, 07:58 AM
I believe we should provide protection for ourselves and our families. We are commanded not to murder but not commanded not to protect.

Michael The Disciple
12-18-2018, 08:14 AM
I both own and carry. The Apostles carried swords up till the crucifiction day.

Rom. 12:18-19

18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

If it is at all possible we are to live in peace. If one is breaking down your door to kill your family it may not be possible. If they are politely knocking on your door asking for a sandwich thats another story.

We are NEVER to take vengence.

It is noteworthy that no scripture in Acts shows Christians using violence on their persecutors.

Truthseeker
12-18-2018, 09:03 AM
I both own and carry. The Apostles carried swords up till the crucifiction day.

Rom. 12:18-19

18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

If it is at all possible we are to live in peace. If one is breaking down your door to kill your family it may not be possible. If they are politely knocking on your door asking for a sandwich thats another story.

We are NEVER to take vengence.

It is noteworthy that no scripture in Acts shows Christians using violence on their persecutors.


Right, no record of them even protecting themsleves.

No record

Esaias
12-18-2018, 02:33 PM
Right, no record of them even protecting themsleves.

No record

No record of them going to the bathroom, either.

Not one.

Truthseeker
12-18-2018, 02:47 PM
No record of them going to the bathroom, either.

Not one.


But we know for sure they did, unlike killing others for protection it isn't as concrete.

Scott Pitta
12-18-2018, 03:31 PM
As a hunter, I own guns. They are tools used for harvesting wild game.

I do not carry a concealed weapon. Nor do we use our firearms for self defense.

Truthseeker
12-18-2018, 03:39 PM
As a hunter, I own guns. They are tools used for harvesting wild game.

I do not carry a concealed weapon. Nor do we use our firearms for self defense.



Would you use your hunting guns to kill for protection?

Scott Pitta
12-18-2018, 04:03 PM
I do not anticipate that ever occurring. Here in the quiet country, crime is low.

Truthseeker
12-18-2018, 05:05 PM
I do not anticipate that ever occurring. Here in the quiet country, crime is low.

But if it did, would you use your guns ?

Esaias
12-18-2018, 05:48 PM
Right, no record of them even protecting themsleves.

No record

Actually, this is incorrect. Your use of the word "even" in response to Michael's statement means you are saying Christians did nothing to protect themselves. Yet we have Paul being hidden and using a basket to go over the wall to escape people bent on killing him (Acts 9). Furthermore, when a group of Jews conspired to assassinate him he availed himself of Roman soldiers for protection (Acts 23). The only way that would work is because the Roman soldiers carried swords and possibly spears and would have killed anyone trying to harm their prisoner. Therefore, Paul was quite willing for people to use deadly force to ensure his safety.

Jesus commanded His disciples to arm themselves, even if it meant selling their cloak to buy a sword. Why would He tell them to do this? In fact, two disciples were already armed, which means Jesus was travelling around having church with at least two disciples packing heat. There is nothing in the entire Bible that even remotely suggests God prefers His people to be unarmed.

1. There is no command against being armed.
2. The OT (which was written for our example and instruction) shows that being disarmed is a negative thing (1 Samuel 13:19-22).
3. There is a positive command to be armed (Luke 22:36).

Therefore, it is Biblical to be armed.

Regarding self defense:

1. There is no command prohibiting defending yourself against violent assault.
2. The Law recognises the right of self defense (Exodus 22:2).
3. Nehemiah understood the Law recognised the right of self defense (Nehemiah 4:13-14).
4. The NT recognises the validity of the Law as the Divinely ordained rule of conduct (Romans 8:4-7).

Therefore, self defense is Biblical.

Regarding persecution, it is pretty clear that Christians generally do not try to defend themselves against wanton persecution. Persecution is different than ordinary crime or assault. Many Christians, including the apostles, were willing to die for the Gospel rather than kill someone trying to persecute them. Martyrdom is certainly not condemned or looked down upon in Scripture, regardless of which Testament you read (although whoever martyrs one of God's people is obviously in danger of God's wrath). But as I pointed out above, there were times when Paul (and Jesus even!) used various means of defending themselves against people trying to kill them. Primarily by means of avoidance or escape, although as noted Paul was willing to use the threat of violence to persuade his would be murderers to stay away from him.

Every person has to decide for himself where he draws the line, what he will allow and what he will not allow, in regard to self defense and defense of others. But there is no Scripture that prohibits armed self defense, or which commands being disarmed, or which positively commands pacifism.

Scott Pitta
12-18-2018, 05:48 PM
Probably not. They are put away when hunting season is over.

Truthseeker
12-18-2018, 05:56 PM
Actually, this is incorrect. Your use of the word "even" in response to Michael's statement means you are saying Christians did nothing to protect themselves. Yet we have Paul being hidden and using a basket to go over the wall to escape people bent on killing him (Acts 9). Furthermore, when a group of Jews conspired to assassinate him he availed himself of Roman soldiers for protection (Acts 23). The only way that would work is because the Roman soldiers carried swords and possibly spears and would have killed anyone trying to harm their prisoner. Therefore, Paul was quite willing for people to use deadly force to ensure his safety.

Jesus commanded His disciples to arm themselves, even if it meant selling their cloak to buy a sword. Why would He tell them to do this? In fact, two disciples were already armed, which means Jesus was travelling around having church with at least two disciples packing heat. There is nothing in the entire Bible that even remotely suggests God prefers His people to be unarmed.

1. There is no command against being armed.
2. The OT (which was written for our example and instruction) shows that being disarmed is a negative thing (1 Samuel 13:19-22).
3. There is a positive command to be armed (Luke 22:36).

Therefore, it is Biblical to be armed.

Regarding self defense:

1. There is no command prohibiting defending yourself against violent assault.
2. The Law recognises the right of self defense (Exodus 22:2).
3. Nehemiah understood the Law recognised the right of self defense (Nehemiah 4:13-14).
4. The NT recognises the validity of the Law as the Divinely ordained rule of conduct (Romans 8:4-7).

Therefore, self defense is Biblical.

Regarding persecution, it is pretty clear that Christians generally do not try to defend themselves against wanton persecution. Persecution is different than ordinary crime or assault. Many Christians, including the apostles, were willing to die for the Gospel rather than kill someone trying to persecute them. Martyrdom is certainly not condemned or looked down upon in Scripture, regardless of which Testament you read (although whoever martyrs one of God's people is obviously in danger of God's wrath). But as I pointed out above, there were times when Paul (and Jesus even!) used various means of defending themselves against people trying to kill them. Primarily by means of avoidance or escape, although as noted Paul was willing to use the threat of violence to persuade his would be murderers to stay away from him.

Every person has to decide for himself where he draws the line, what he will allow and what he will not allow, in regard to self defense and defense of others. But there is no Scripture that prohibits armed self defense, or which commands being disarmed, or which positively commands pacifism.

My point is there wasn't no record of them protecting themsleves. Not that they didnt, but I do think if they were killing others with their swords it would be mention at least once in acts.

Esaias
12-18-2018, 06:03 PM
My point is there wasn't no record of them protecting themsleves. Not they didnt, but I do think if they were killing others with their swords it would be mention at least once in acts.

I assume you mean there was no record of them killing anyone? Protecting yourself does not always require killing someone, or even using a weapon.

The fact there is no record of the apostles and first century church using weapons to protect themselves only means there is no record of them using weapons to protect themselves. It does not mean we are forbidden from using weapons to protect ourselves. Technically, it doesn't even mean they did NOT use weapons to protect themselves. The lack of a written record of the apostles doing something doesn't really mean much except when it comes to acts of worship or explanation and propagation of doctrine (in which case the Regulative Principle comes into play).

LOVE JESUS
12-18-2018, 06:17 PM
We have a pistol on the night stand by our bed. We both have weapon permits and one of us carry a concealed weapon almost all the time. Hope we never have to use it but we would protect the family.

Jito463
12-18-2018, 11:00 PM
I've had a conceal carry license for nearly a year now, and carry every single day (and yes, that means to church). I pray to God that I'll never need it, but I won't go anywhere without it. Not just to defend my own life, but I also carry for the defense of others should the need arise.

JoeBandy
12-19-2018, 08:22 AM
Ummmmmmm..... Where has common sense gone??

Jito463
12-19-2018, 01:10 PM
Ummmmmmm..... Where has common sense gone??

Care to clarify? How precisely do you define "common sense"?

Truthseeker
12-19-2018, 01:30 PM
Ummmmmmm..... Where has common sense gone??

Is God going by common sense?

Apostolic1ness
12-19-2018, 02:07 PM
Care to clarify? How precisely do you define "common sense"?

most people smell....this is a common sense
sight is another common sense....
arent there 5 common senses?

JoeBandy
12-19-2018, 02:11 PM
O Geeez. You people have been in the eggnog.

Jito463
12-19-2018, 09:12 PM
most people smell....this is a common sense
sight is another common sense....
arent there 5 common senses?

:lol

O Geeez. You people have been in the eggnog.

Still waiting for you to clarify your position. Are you saying you're opposed to carrying? Are you saying you're against it? Are you saying you're a tutu wearing walrus? I mean, what exactly are you trying to say?

shag
12-20-2018, 05:57 AM
I lead our Safety Team at my church. I have 8 guys that conceal carry, on a rotating schedule. They have their ccw, and personal insurance(Law Shield). We have advanced training scheduled for undesirable situations. We have 3 containers of Level 3 OC spray, and a set of handcuffs, accessible if needed. We have training scheduled throughout the year. We also are doing Emergency response training for dealing w situations like what happened last week...a 70 year old sister w a background of 2 strokes fell over in the floor in between the pews, and we ending up having the ambulance take her out.

(I am somewhat of an avid hunter too)

I aim(:D) to protect my family, which includes church family, men, women, children from someone intentionally trying to endanger their life, if I can stop it from happening. It’s not about killing, it’s about stopping someone from killing innocent people, using the least amount of force possible.

Mock if you want to, but if my team stops a psychopath from taking the life of all your children during a worship service, the mocking will stop.

We train to deal w different situations, not just an active shooter. Most confrontations will be relative to marital and child custody situations, that can get out of hand. And next will be drunks and meth heads that show up causing a stink. Our goal is to reach them the gospel, but if they get out of control because their brain is half fried, major disruption etc, then they may need an escort out.


https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2017/11/06/a-list-of-some-us-house-of-worship-shootings-since-2012/

MawMaw
12-20-2018, 11:39 AM
We own many and would not hesitate to use if some idiot
would try break in our home whilest we are here. We also
have carry permits. Criminals sure gonna carry, so why not us?

Jito463
12-20-2018, 01:10 PM
We also have carry permits. Criminals sure gonna carry, so why not us?

Isn't it funny how criminals don't need permits to carry? Almost like laws don't affect the behavior of criminals.... :hmmm

Mock if you want to, but if my team stops a psychopath from taking the life of all your children during a worship service, the mocking will stop.

:highfive

Are you saying you're opposed to carrying? Are you saying you're against it?

Oops, just realized I goofed. One of those was meant to ask if he was for carrying, though I have a feeling I know the answer already. Still, would be nice if he'd clarify.

JoeBandy
12-20-2018, 08:08 PM
:lol



Still waiting for you to clarify your position. Are you saying you're opposed to carrying? Are you saying you're against it? Are you saying you're a tutu wearing walrus? I mean, what exactly are you trying to say?

I should have been born in 1843. If that tells you anything. I am anti bank. And anti government