The reality of the slippery slope?

[Jason B]

I joined AFF in 2007. I wasn't raised in the UPC and knew little of Christianity, much less oneness Pentecostalism prior to January of 2000. It's safe to say prior to 2007 I pretty much believed the oneness movement was monolithic, essentially all conservative, and that all OPs were "3 steppers". I knew exceptions existed, but I had little exposure to them. Anyway, as we know AFF, especially it's it's hey day was a melting pot for everything apostolic, or anyone with even the slightest connection to the movement at any time. Left, right, center, libs, conservative, ultra cons, apostates, agnostics, heretics, charismatics, charlatans, Muslims, athiests, bapticostals, etc all discussed here. Hundreds.
Over 11 years you kinda see how life unfolds, and with AFF, Facebook, and such these days you observe people's lives at a distance, wherein in the past all contact would be lost.

So here's the point. It is my observation that it seems many (most) people who have left the OP movement do in very fact make shipwreck of their faith. I'm constantly amazed by people who once stood strong for what we all believed was truth and holinessand just how far the other way they have swung. It honestly saddens me.

I say this as someone who has left myself. It breaks my heart to see all the Ex's embrace all manner of heresy, word faith charismatic, seeker, gay affirming, post modern and essentially every perversion of anything resembling even remotely sound Christian doctrine. I'm heart broken when I see people who used to live holiness look like Jan Crouch with vanity all over them. I'm heart broken when I see people who preached holiness and sensible doctrine follow the likes of Steven Furtick and Bill Johnson. I'm heart broken when I see folks strive for noteriety and do whatever is necessary to forward their ministry, their brand, their ego. People who loved God, who were good preachers. Saints who loved God, wholovrd the church, and prayer, and the people of God, and whose passion was revival. I can't believe the things I hear, read,and see. It breaks my heart the broken families. It breaks my heart that not only do they not go to an OP church, but rarely go at all, if they even believe in the most basic Christian gospel anymore.

In all honesty, this saddens me. Over and over. It's like I keep watching the same thing. And obviously I'm not saying that with a dog in the fight. I left in 2010 and have always remained in church. Pastored an independent Bible Church from 2014-2017. I've been vocal about some of my differences with OP doctrine here on this forum. But regardless of that, I hate to see people either turn away from Christ, or else claim to serve Him and yet just seemingly be the victim of a cycle of poor choices. Drugs, alcoholism, divorce, filled with hatred and cussing, life in bars and clubs. It's sad.

And honestly it happens with such frequency, I can see why old timers roll out the horror stories to make people scared of leaving.

This hasn't happened to me. And I wonder if it's because I wasn't raised in it. I converted at 18. I had no family or friends who were OPs. In fact I'm not sure I had any family or friends who attended any type of church regularly. I went from the world I to a UC UPC. And stayed 10 years, then left. And have basically been in conservative reformed Bible Churches since. A lot of similarties and obviously a few big differences.

So I wonder, why is it so many leave and just go totally bonkers? Even if it takes 5-10 years to get there, it seems they get there. Is that a by product of the OP culture and preaching? Is it because they left "the truth"? I believe it's the isolationist culture. But I'd like to hear others takes.

Regardless if the least, the end result is bad. It does make me wonder if these people who claim to have freedom wouldn't have been much better off staying their former course. I wonder how many would admit that, or think that but won't admit it. I wonder how has the internet affected this?

Maybe it's just me and sinceI don't have a history in the movement, I don't know, but it seems like in the last 15 years a mass exodus has taken place from conservative OPism. And even the UPC seems to have flipped from conservative to liberal leaning. It just seems like the ones who left, totally threw everything out. And the ones who stayed moved right to left and now mirror the larger Evangelical movement, rather than classical Pentecostal or holiness movements.

Just some random thoughts. We'll see where this goes.

[Esaias]

The majority of people with wrecked lives are not "ex oneness pentecostals". The majority of whacked out charismaniacs are not former UPCers.

The problem isn't the UPC or the "apostolic movement" in general. The problem is modern western civ is in ICU and the body is already starting to stink, but nobody has pulled the plug yet.

[Jason B]

The majority of people with wrecked lives are not "ex oneness pentecostals". The majority of whacked out charismaniacs are not former UPCers.


I'm talking specifically about people who were members of UPC churches, pastored UPC churches, evangelized in the UPC, graduated UPC Bible Churches, or were closely connected but independent brethren. Tons. Plenty just on AFF at some point in the last 10 years.

I'm not talking about charismatics,though many of these people have embraced those errors. I'm specifically talking about ex OPs. If they were never in a UPC/OP church that baptized in Jesus name and believed tongues was the initial evidence, then I am not referring to them. Just to clarify.

[Esaias]

I'm talking specifically about people who were members of UPC churches, pastored UPC churches, evangelized in the UPC, graduated UPC Bible Churches, or were closely connected but independent brethren. Tons. Plenty just on AFF at some point in the last 10 years.

I'm not talking about charismatics,though many of these people have embraced those errors. I'm specifically talking about ex OPs. If they were never in a UPC/OP church that baptized in Jesus name and believed tongues was the initial evidence, then I am not referring to them. Just to clarify.

Yes, and I'm pointing out that the Insanity™ is a built in feature of modern life, not the UPC.

[Amanah]

We are saved by obedient faith, faith that results in obeying the gospel
we are saved via being led by the Spirit, resulting in the fruit of the Spirit (holiness).

We are saved by faith not by works of the flesh, But faith without works is dead being alone.

Now what if someone thinks that following the rules saves them. What if they get confused and try to be saved by their own efforts?
Or they forget that they can not do it on their own, but only in relationship with Christ, bible, prayer, fasting, fellowship can they be saved?

What if some people dropped their standards and recklessly lost their way?

What if some people now are so distracted by the culture, social media, tv, movies, ect, that they are not maintaining a saving relationship with Christ?

[1ofthechosen]

I'd say the problem comes with pride and arrogance In people wanting to create a hybrid religion. Schismatics, and reprobates they aren't just leaving our churches they are leaving all churches, and from every walk of life. Only reason we seem to get highlighted with this hog wash is people know who has the truth it's evident. So we look bad, because of that.

But there's Evangelical preachers going athiest and churches are allowing them to stay and pastor the church. We haven't even began reaching levels of depravity like that, but the Oneness movement gets attention because people know who they come to for prayer when they want answers, they know where people are being healed, and they know who to go to if people are possessed, and they need the devil to be casted out. Since the movement has always been on the other side of the spectrum from the world like night and day, to see any part of it edging toward the world is shocking. But to every other religion and denomination it's normal by this day and hour. Nobody is going to talk about that. It's the status quo and has been for close to a 100 years.

[MarkBelosa]

I joined AFF in 2007. I wasn't raised in the UPC and knew little of Christianity, much less oneness Pentecostalism prior to January of 2000. It's safe to say prior to 2007 I pretty much believed the oneness movement was monolithic, essentially all conservative, and that all OPs were "3 steppers". I knew exceptions existed, but I had little exposure to them. Anyway, as we know AFF, especially it's it's hey day was a melting pot for everything apostolic, or anyone with even the slightest connection to the movement at any time. Left, right, center, libs, conservative, ultra cons, apostates, agnostics, heretics, charismatics, charlatans, Muslims, athiests, bapticostals, etc all discussed here. Hundreds.
Over 11 years you kinda see how life unfolds, and with AFF, Facebook, and such these days you observe people's lives at a distance, wherein in the past all contact would be lost.

So here's the point. It is my observation that it seems many (most) people who have left the OP movement do in very fact make shipwreck of their faith. I'm constantly amazed by people who once stood strong for what we all believed was truth and holinessand just how far the other way they have swung. It honestly saddens me.

I say this as someone who has left myself. It breaks my heart to see all the Ex's embrace all manner of heresy, word faith charismatic, seeker, gay affirming, post modern and essentially every perversion of anything resembling even remotely sound Christian doctrine. I'm heart broken when I see people who used to live holiness look like Jan Crouch with vanity all over them. I'm heart broken when I see people who preached holiness and sensible doctrine follow the likes of Steven Furtick and Bill Johnson. I'm heart broken when I see folks strive for noteriety and do whatever is necessary to forward their ministry, their brand, their ego. People who loved God, who were good preachers. Saints who loved God, wholovrd the church, and prayer, and the people of God, and whose passion was revival. I can't believe the things I hear, read,and see. It breaks my heart the broken families. It breaks my heart that not only do they not go to an OP church, but rarely go at all, if they even believe in the most basic Christian gospel anymore.

In all honesty, this saddens me. Over and over. It's like I keep watching the same thing. And obviously I'm not saying that with a dog in the fight. I left in 2010 and have always remained in church. Pastored an independent Bible Church from 2014-2017. I've been vocal about some of my differences with OP doctrine here on this forum. But regardless of that, I hate to see people either turn away from Christ, or else claim to serve Him and yet just seemingly be the victim of a cycle of poor choices. Drugs, alcoholism, divorce, filled with hatred and cussing, life in bars and clubs. It's sad.

And honestly it happens with such frequency, I can see why old timers roll out the horror stories to make people scared of leaving.

This hasn't happened to me. And I wonder if it's because I wasn't raised in it. I converted at 18. I had no family or friends who were OPs. In fact I'm not sure I had any family or friends who attended any type of church regularly. I went from the world I to a UC UPC. And stayed 10 years, then left. And have basically been in conservative reformed Bible Churches since. A lot of similarties and obviously a few big differences.

So I wonder, why is it so many leave and just go totally bonkers? Even if it takes 5-10 years to get there, it seems they get there. Is that a by product of the OP culture and preaching? Is it because they left "the truth"? I believe it's the isolationist culture. But I'd like to hear others takes.

Regardless if the least, the end result is bad. It does make me wonder if these people who claim to have freedom wouldn't have been much better off staying their former course. I wonder how many would admit that, or think that but won't admit it. I wonder how has the internet affected this?

Maybe it's just me and sinceI don't have a history in the movement, I don't know, but it seems like in the last 15 years a mass exodus has taken place from conservative OPism. And even the UPC seems to have flipped from conservative to liberal leaning. It just seems like the ones who left, totally threw everything out. And the ones who stayed moved right to left and now mirror the larger Evangelical movement, rather than classical Pentecostal or holiness movements.

Just some random thoughts. We'll see where this goes.

Could be one or a combination of the following:
- They probably didn't have an abiding relationship with Christ
- They were probably in the church for the "wrong reasons" before they left
- Secret sins they nurtured while they were still active church goers
- Lack of support system and accountability after they decided to leave
- Losing their Christian identity (they probably identified with their former church more that they identified with Christ)
- Being deceived

[Michael The Disciple]

Could be one or a combination of the following:
- They probably didn't have an abiding relationship with Christ
- They were probably in the church for the "wrong reasons" before they left
- Secret sins they nurtured while they were still active church goers
- Lack of support system and accountability after they decided to leave
- Losing their Christian identity (they probably identified with their former church more that they identified with Christ)
- Being deceived

Yes all the above. And more.

[Michael The Disciple]

I joined AFF in 2007. I wasn't raised in the UPC and knew little of Christianity, much less oneness Pentecostalism prior to January of 2000. It's safe to say prior to 2007 I pretty much believed the oneness movement was monolithic, essentially all conservative, and that all OPs were "3 steppers". I knew exceptions existed, but I had little exposure to them. Anyway, as we know AFF, especially it's it's hey day was a melting pot for everything apostolic, or anyone with even the slightest connection to the movement at any time. Left, right, center, libs, conservative, ultra cons, apostates, agnostics, heretics, charismatics, charlatans, Muslims, athiests, bapticostals, etc all discussed here. Hundreds.
Over 11 years you kinda see how life unfolds, and with AFF, Facebook, and such these days you observe people's lives at a distance, wherein in the past all contact would be lost.

So here's the point. It is my observation that it seems many (most) people who have left the OP movement do in very fact make shipwreck of their faith. I'm constantly amazed by people who once stood strong for what we all believed was truth and holinessand just how far the other way they have swung. It honestly saddens me.

I say this as someone who has left myself. It breaks my heart to see all the Ex's embrace all manner of heresy, word faith charismatic, seeker, gay affirming, post modern and essentially every perversion of anything resembling even remotely sound Christian doctrine. I'm heart broken when I see people who used to live holiness look like Jan Crouch with vanity all over them. I'm heart broken when I see people who preached holiness and sensible doctrine follow the likes of Steven Furtick and Bill Johnson. I'm heart broken when I see folks strive for noteriety and do whatever is necessary to forward their ministry, their brand, their ego. People who loved God, who were good preachers. Saints who loved God, wholovrd the church, and prayer, and the people of God, and whose passion was revival. I can't believe the things I hear, read,and see. It breaks my heart the broken families. It breaks my heart that not only do they not go to an OP church, but rarely go at all, if they even believe in the most basic Christian gospel anymore.

In all honesty, this saddens me. Over and over. It's like I keep watching the same thing. And obviously I'm not saying that with a dog in the fight. I left in 2010 and have always remained in church. Pastored an independent Bible Church from 2014-2017. I've been vocal about some of my differences with OP doctrine here on this forum. But regardless of that, I hate to see people either turn away from Christ, or else claim to serve Him and yet just seemingly be the victim of a cycle of poor choices. Drugs, alcoholism, divorce, filled with hatred and cussing, life in bars and clubs. It's sad.

And honestly it happens with such frequency, I can see why old timers roll out the horror stories to make people scared of leaving.

This hasn't happened to me. And I wonder if it's because I wasn't raised in it. I converted at 18. I had no family or friends who were OPs. In fact I'm not sure I had any family or friends who attended any type of church regularly. I went from the world I to a UC UPC. And stayed 10 years, then left. And have basically been in conservative reformed Bible Churches since. A lot of similarties and obviously a few big differences.

So I wonder, why is it so many leave and just go totally bonkers? Even if it takes 5-10 years to get there, it seems they get there. Is that a by product of the OP culture and preaching? Is it because they left "the truth"? I believe it's the isolationist culture. But I'd like to hear others takes.

Regardless if the least, the end result is bad. It does make me wonder if these people who claim to have freedom wouldn't have been much better off staying their former course. I wonder how many would admit that, or think that but won't admit it. I wonder how has the internet affected this?

Maybe it's just me and sinceI don't have a history in the movement, I don't know, but it seems like in the last 15 years a mass exodus has taken place from conservative OPism. And even the UPC seems to have flipped from conservative to liberal leaning. It just seems like the ones who left, totally threw everything out. And the ones who stayed moved right to left and now mirror the larger Evangelical movement, rather than classical Pentecostal or holiness movements.

Just some random thoughts. We'll see where this goes.

Why did you leave?

[Jason B]

Why did you leave?


I was bitter. :heeheehee

That's always the reason right? Lol.

[hometown guy]

Yah it’s sad when folks get carnal and backslide. Usually they do go to the extreme.

[Michael The Disciple]

I was bitter. :heeheehee

That's always the reason right? Lol.

After a time of bitterness, there can be healing:highfive

[hometown guy]

After a time of bitterness, there can be healing:highfive

True there could be but most just find other people with the same issues and fuel it.

[Jason B]

Why did you leave?

Ok a serious answer.

I left for mostly doctrinal reasons. I wasn't mad, wasn't mistreated, wasn't craving the world. I was happy in life, I was treated well, and had many friends, essentially all my friends, we're OPs. It was probably the absolute hardest decision of my life. It was met with derision and ridicule. My wife was hurt and felt betrayed by me (because of the way my pastor reacted). I became the enemy literally overnight. But I'm getting ahead of myself, this happened after I left.

I left for doctrinal reasons. Through study of the Word I came to the conclusion and conviction that the Bible teaches the sinner is justified by faith in Christ. Thus I believe the sinner is saved at repentance. And while I believe they should be obedient and be baptized, and believe baptism should be done invoking Jesus name, I do not believe the act of baptism bestows salvation. I also don't believe baptism in titles is invalid, not because I don't believe Jesus name baptism is the original historical formula (I do), but because I believe the sinner is saved prior to baptism, and what is important in baptism is the sinners faith in and obedience to Christ, NOT the phrase the preacher uses.

Secondly, I am not convinced at all that tounges is the only initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I believe that when God justifies the sinner, he also saves the sinner and at that very moment adopts the repentant sinner AND sends His Spirit to indwell the repentant sinner who becomes a child of God. Thus I deny the initial evidence doctrine.

Thirdly,while I do appreciate standards, and prefer women wear skirts/dresses, no make up, no jewelry, have uncut hair, etc. I don't believe that these things are necessary to salvation. Modesty is biblical. However standards as they were taught (still taught in some places) turn into a legalistic works righteousness system. So I deny the necessity of standards for salvation.

These are the big reasons. I suppose if I had been able to find a one step oneness church I would have possibly attended there instead of a Reformed church.

[hometown guy]

Ok a serious answer.

I left for mostly doctrinal reasons. I wasn't mad, wasn't mistreated, wasn't craving the world. I was happy in life, I was treated well, and had many friends, essentially all my friends, we're OPs. It was probably the absolute hardest decision of my life. It was met with derision and ridicule. My wife was hurt and felt betrayed by me (because of the way my pastor reacted). I became the enemy literally overnight. But I'm getting ahead of myself, this happened after I left.

I left for doctrinal reasons. Through study of the Word I came to the conclusion and conviction that the Bible teaches the sinner is justified by faith in Christ. Thus I believe the sinner is saved at repentance. And while I believe they should be obedient and be baptized, and believe baptism should be done invoking Jesus name, I do not believe the act of baptism bestows salvation. I also don't believe baptism in titles is invalid, not because I don't believe Jesus name baptism is the original historical formula (I do), but because I believe the sinner is saved prior to baptism, and what is important in baptism is the sinners faith in and obedience to Christ, NOT the phrase the preacher uses.

Secondly, I am not convinced at all that tounges is the only initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I believe that when God justifies the sinner, he also saves the sinner and at that very moment adopts the repentant sinner AND sends His Spirit to indwell the repentant sinner who becomes a child of God. Thus I deny the initial evidence doctrine.

Thirdly,while I do appreciate standards, and prefer women wear skirts/dresses, no make up, no jewelry, have uncut hair, etc. I don't believe that these things are necessary to salvation. Modesty is biblical. However standards as they were taught (still taught in some places) turn into a legalistic works righteousness system. So I deny the necessity of standards for salvation.

These are the big reasons. I suppose if I had been able to find a one step oneness church I would have possibly attended there instead of a Reformed church.

Hope you one day make it back from being deceived.

[Jason B]

Hope you one day make it back from being deceived.

Decieved....by the scriptures?

[hometown guy]

Decieved....by the scriptures?

Guess so the Bible does speak of a strong delusion..... it’s pretty obvious in scripture that repentance is death and just the first part of obeying the gospel. You know that....

[1ofthechosen]

Ok a serious answer.

I left for mostly doctrinal reasons. I wasn't mad, wasn't mistreated, wasn't craving the world. I was happy in life, I was treated well, and had many friends, essentially all my friends, we're OPs. It was probably the absolute hardest decision of my life. It was met with derision and ridicule. My wife was hurt and felt betrayed by me (because of the way my pastor reacted). I became the enemy literally overnight. But I'm getting ahead of myself, this happened after I left.

I left for doctrinal reasons. Through study of the Word I came to the conclusion and conviction that the Bible teaches the sinner is justified by faith in Christ. Thus I believe the sinner is saved at repentance. And while I believe they should be obedient and be baptized, and believe baptism should be done invoking Jesus name, I do not believe the act of baptism bestows salvation. I also don't believe baptism in titles is invalid, not because I don't believe Jesus name baptism is the original historical formula (I do), but because I believe the sinner is saved prior to baptism, and what is important in baptism is the sinners faith in and obedience to Christ, NOT the phrase the preacher uses.

Secondly, I am not convinced at all that tounges is the only initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I believe that when God justifies the sinner, he also saves the sinner and at that very moment adopts the repentant sinner AND sends His Spirit to indwell the repentant sinner who becomes a child of God. Thus I deny the initial evidence doctrine.

Thirdly,while I do appreciate standards, and prefer women wear skirts/dresses, no make up, no jewelry, have uncut hair, etc. I don't believe that these things are necessary to salvation. Modesty is biblical. However standards as they were taught (still taught in some places) turn into a legalistic works righteousness system. So I deny the necessity of standards for salvation.

These are the big reasons. I suppose if I had been able to find a one step oneness church I would have possibly attended there instead of a Reformed church.


Where in the Book of Acts was one person saved at Repentance? And do we throw out Mark 16:16, and 1 Peter 3:21?

I know this is off topic, but you are saying this is a Biblical assertion. So I'm just asking for Biblical proof and where in the Book of Acts did you draw this conclusion from?

[hometown guy]

Where in the Book of Acts was one person saved at Repentance? And do we throw out Mark 16:16, and 1 Peter 3:21?

Exactly. And we can plenty more scriptures to that list...... he knows this. Hopefully his pride in “ breaking away “ won’t keep him out long.

[Michael The Disciple]

Ok a serious answer.

I left for mostly doctrinal reasons. I wasn't mad, wasn't mistreated, wasn't craving the world. I was happy in life, I was treated well, and had many friends, essentially all my friends, we're OPs. It was probably the absolute hardest decision of my life. It was met with derision and ridicule. My wife was hurt and felt betrayed by me (because of the way my pastor reacted). I became the enemy literally overnight. But I'm getting ahead of myself, this happened after I left.

I left for doctrinal reasons. Through study of the Word I came to the conclusion and conviction that the Bible teaches the sinner is justified by faith in Christ. Thus I believe the sinner is saved at repentance. And while I believe they should be obedient and be baptized, and believe baptism should be done invoking Jesus name, I do not believe the act of baptism bestows salvation. I also don't believe baptism in titles is invalid, not because I don't believe Jesus name baptism is the original historical formula (I do), but because I believe the sinner is saved prior to baptism, and what is important in baptism is the sinners faith in and obedience to Christ, NOT the phrase the preacher uses.

Secondly, I am not convinced at all that tounges is the only initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I believe that when God justifies the sinner, he also saves the sinner and at that very moment adopts the repentant sinner AND sends His Spirit to indwell the repentant sinner who becomes a child of God. Thus I deny the initial evidence doctrine.

Thirdly,while I do appreciate standards, and prefer women wear skirts/dresses, no make up, no jewelry, have uncut hair, etc. I don't believe that these things are necessary to salvation. Modesty is biblical. However standards as they were taught (still taught in some places) turn into a legalistic works righteousness system. So I deny the necessity of standards for salvation.

These are the big reasons. I suppose if I had been able to find a one step oneness church I would have possibly attended there instead of a Reformed church.

So considering your own experience may be that of those who leave the Oneness movement a majority of them dont leave it to go and do crazy things. Maybe they also have doctrinal issues.

My situation is different than yours yet similar. I hold firmly to the Oneness message. I believe Acts 2:38 is the full standard for salvation in the New Covenant Church.

I disagree with most Oneness Churches on the rapture (myself being post trib), the resurrection of the dead, eternal judgement, and sinless perfection.

I disagree with their stand against beards and the doctrine that it is a sin for women to trim their hair.

These things have made it very difficult for me to tie myself to a Oneness Church. I think I ran through the best Trinitarian Churches available before I started into Oneness so it does not occur to me to ever be a member of one again.

Not saying I would never visit one.

[hometown guy]

So considering your own experience may be that of those who leave the Oneness movement a majority of them dont leave it to go and do crazy things. Maybe they also have doctrinal issues.

My situation is different than yours yet similar. I hold firmly to the Oneness message. I believe Acts 2:38 is the full standard for salvation in the New Covenant Church.

I disagree with most Oneness Churches on the rapture (myself being post trib), the resurrection of the dead, eternal judgement, and sinless perfection.

I disagree with their stand against beards and the doctrine that it is a sin for women to trim their hair.

These things have made it very difficult for me to tie myself to a Oneness Church. I think I ran through the best Trinitarian Churches available before I started into Oneness so it does not occur to me to ever be a member of one again.

Not saying I would never visit one.

Not sure on the others on what you believe but disagreeing with beards and pre/mid/post sure sounds like a silly reason to leave a church.

[1ofthechosen]

Not sure on the others on what you believe but disagreeing with beards and pre/mid/post sure sounds like a silly reason to leave a church.

Not to Mike that's the most important things to him. Acts 2:38 then Beards, and Post Trib Rapture.

[navygoat1998]

I joined AFF in 2007. I wasn't raised in the UPC and knew little of Christianity, much less oneness Pentecostalism prior to January of 2000. It's safe to say prior to 2007 I pretty much believed the oneness movement was monolithic, essentially all conservative, and that all OPs were "3 steppers". I knew exceptions existed, but I had little exposure to them. Anyway, as we know AFF, especially it's it's hey day was a melting pot for everything apostolic, or anyone with even the slightest connection to the movement at any time. Left, right, center, libs, conservative, ultra cons, apostates, agnostics, heretics, charismatics, charlatans, Muslims, athiests, bapticostals, etc all discussed here. Hundreds.
Over 11 years you kinda see how life unfolds, and with AFF, Facebook, and such these days you observe people's lives at a distance, wherein in the past all contact would be lost.

So here's the point. It is my observation that it seems many (most) people who have left the OP movement do in very fact make shipwreck of their faith. I'm constantly amazed by people who once stood strong for what we all believed was truth and holinessand just how far the other way they have swung. It honestly saddens me.

I say this as someone who has left myself. It breaks my heart to see all the Ex's embrace all manner of heresy, word faith charismatic, seeker, gay affirming, post modern and essentially every perversion of anything resembling even remotely sound Christian doctrine. I'm heart broken when I see people who used to live holiness look like Jan Crouch with vanity all over them. I'm heart broken when I see people who preached holiness and sensible doctrine follow the likes of Steven Furtick and Bill Johnson. I'm heart broken when I see folks strive for noteriety and do whatever is necessary to forward their ministry, their brand, their ego. People who loved God, who were good preachers. Saints who loved God, wholovrd the church, and prayer, and the people of God, and whose passion was revival. I can't believe the things I hear, read,and see. It breaks my heart the broken families. It breaks my heart that not only do they not go to an OP church, but rarely go at all, if they even believe in the most basic Christian gospel anymore.

In all honesty, this saddens me. Over and over. It's like I keep watching the same thing. And obviously I'm not saying that with a dog in the fight. I left in 2010 and have always remained in church. Pastored an independent Bible Church from 2014-2017. I've been vocal about some of my differences with OP doctrine here on this forum. But regardless of that, I hate to see people either turn away from Christ, or else claim to serve Him and yet just seemingly be the victim of a cycle of poor choices. Drugs, alcoholism, divorce, filled with hatred and cussing, life in bars and clubs. It's sad.

And honestly it happens with such frequency, I can see why old timers roll out the horror stories to make people scared of leaving.

This hasn't happened to me. And I wonder if it's because I wasn't raised in it. I converted at 18. I had no family or friends who were OPs. In fact I'm not sure I had any family or friends who attended any type of church regularly. I went from the world I to a UC UPC. And stayed 10 years, then left. And have basically been in conservative reformed Bible Churches since. A lot of similarties and obviously a few big differences.

So I wonder, why is it so many leave and just go totally bonkers? Even if it takes 5-10 years to get there, it seems they get there. Is that a by product of the OP culture and preaching? Is it because they left "the truth"? I believe it's the isolationist culture. But I'd like to hear others takes.

Regardless if the least, the end result is bad. It does make me wonder if these people who claim to have freedom wouldn't have been much better off staying their former course. I wonder how many would admit that, or think that but won't admit it. I wonder how has the internet affected this?

Maybe it's just me and sinceI don't have a history in the movement, I don't know, but it seems like in the last 15 years a mass exodus has taken place from conservative OPism. And even the UPC seems to have flipped from conservative to liberal leaning. It just seems like the ones who left, totally threw everything out. And the ones who stayed moved right to left and now mirror the larger Evangelical movement, rather than classical Pentecostal or holiness movements.

Just some random thoughts. We'll see where this goes.

Still holding on here. :thumbsup

[hometown guy]

Not to Mike that's the most important things to him. Acts 2:38 then Beards, and Post Trib Rapture.

Like I’ve told people... if you can’t shave it and that is your biggest gripe you deeper issues and you will conquer it when you shave it.

I’m the odd ball and all my friends are pre and I lean more post... not a heaven or hell issue so I ain’t worried about it.

[1ofthechosen]

Like I’ve told people... if you can’t shave it and that is your biggest gripe you deeper issues and you will conquer it when you shave it.

I’m the odd ball and all my friends are pre and I lean more post... not a heaven or hell issue so I ain’t worried about it.

I can agree on all points there. MTD believes it's a heaven or hell issue though. I just hope his interpretation isn't wrong.

[Michael The Disciple]

Not sure on the others on what you believe but disagreeing with beards and pre/mid/post sure sounds like a silly reason to leave a church.

Well yes if truth doesnt matter it would be silly.

[aegsm76]

I too have friends who have left the UPC, due to what I would call "liberal leanings".
Some have gone off the deep end and others have stayed true to the basic Acts 2:38 message.
However, almost without fail, their children fall out of truth.
I do not see the UPC as becoming more liberal however, it seems to have stabilized after the loss of some to the WPF.
My vision may be somewhat skewed, as most of my UPC connections are in the South and Midwest.
But, I believe both orgs are doing fine!

[n david]

I've had close to a couple dozen personal friends leave oneness A/P churches over the years (almost all were UPC). Most left over standards issues -- dress/hair or tv. It's sad to see that with all of them, it hasn't ended there but they also no longer believe in the new birth salvation (repentance, baptism and infilling of the HG).

It seems there's a link between leaving over standards and not believing in the new birth salvation. I've thought about it a lot, because personally, I don't agree with the UPC on a few standards issues; however, one thing I have never wavered on is new birth salvation. It's disconcerting to me that all whom I know personally who left over standards have also stopped preaching the new birth and instead believe baptism is just a public display of commitment to Christ and that the HG is just some extra benefit available to those who are already saved.

Perhaps the thing which has kept me is that while I don't agree on some issues, I have continued to fellowship A/P churches and have not become friendly with churches who do not believe in new birth salvation. I simply refuse to attend or visit a church which doesn't believe the oneness or new birth salvation.

[Jason B]

I too have friends who have left the UPC, due to what I would call "liberal leanings".
Some have gone off the deep end and others have stayed true to the basic Acts 2:38 message.
However, almost without fail, their children fall out of truth.
I do not see the UPC as becoming more liberal however, it seems to have stabilized after the loss of some to the WPF.
My vision may be somewhat skewed, as most of my UPC connections are in the South and Midwest.
But, I believe both orgs are doing fine!

Yes. Even if they hang on, the next generation doesn't tend to fare to well. This is a big concern of mine. Teaching my children. Tonight we had a little New Year's Bible study. The topic? Discussion of Johnathan Edwards resolutions from the 1720's. Excellent stuff.

[Esaias]

However, almost without fail, their children fall out of truth.


This is also a problem across the board, regardless of denomination. Church groups across western civilization are hemorrhaging at the seams, the kids hit 18 move out of the house and give up on church. Many give up on Christianity altogether. Many others give up on Churchianity.

Churches are increasingly being viewed as unnecessary and as not having anything worthwhile to offer.

Also, a lot of folks thought that Sunday School and one or two services per week was enough to save their children. It wasn't, isn't, and never will be. This has to be a daily thing, a continuous nonstop ongoing relationship with God, parents, and kids all involved.

[Amanah]

This is also a problem across the board, regardless of denomination. Church groups across western civilization are hemorrhaging at the seams, the kids hit 18 move out of the house and give up on church. Many give up on Christianity altogether. Many others give up on Churchianity.

Churches are increasingly being viewed as unnecessary and as not having anything worthwhile to offer.

Also, a lot of folks thought that Sunday School and one or two services per week was enough to save their children. It wasn't, isn't, and never will be. This has to be a daily thing, a continuous nonstop ongoing relationship with God, parents, and kids all involved.

sin brings forth death, the wages of sin any sin, small secret sins, participating in sin (even vicariously) via our culture, media, ect, kills a person off bit by bit.
You can't be conformed to the world 4 days/week and live for God 3 days/week and not pay the price.

[Truthseeker]

This is also a problem across the board, regardless of denomination. Church groups across western civilization are hemorrhaging at the seams, the kids hit 18 move out of the house and give up on church. Many give up on Christianity altogether. Many others give up on Churchianity.

Churches are increasingly being viewed as unnecessary and as not having anything worthwhile to offer.

Also, a lot of folks thought that Sunday School and one or two services per week was enough to save their children. It wasn't, isn't, and never will be. This has to be a daily thing, a continuous nonstop ongoing relationship with God, parents, and kids all involved.



I agree. Sadly, from my experience churches teach very little about holiness lifestyle and the home. Some marriages are in shambles and breaking up. No teaching on marriage and godly homes. Look the part, shout and give your tithes all the while not seeing the great need of the hour.

[TakingDominion]

I agree. Sadly, from my experience churches teach very little about holiness lifestyle and the home. Some marriages are in shambles and breaking up. No teaching on marriage and godly homes. Look the part, shout and give your tithes all the while not seeing the great need of the hour.

Couldn't agree more:yourock

[jediwill83]

Couldn't agree more:yourock


Man...families need to get really honest with fellow church goers, christians....so much focus on wearing that mask like everything is ok. Families are hurting and struggling under that mask trying to maintain that stepford image


Thats one thing we*me and katherine* have changed about ourselves....we dont try to pretend anymore....we are brutally honest about our pasts and our struggles even to the point where we might even be seen in a bad light or be judged.


We are honest because thats what we wished people would have been with us....honest...wish we could have seen those struggles and could have seen His redemption in the lives of others more openly.


It would have went a long way to helping us climb out if the hole because we'd see living proof of the battles of others being won...so now....we try to be to others what we wished we had.


We have seen God just open some major doors for people we have encouraged and walked beside and their victories have further emboldened us to continue on.


Driving a lot more and I have lots of time to think and meditate and let God speak. Last night while pondering all of this in the context of "They were made overcomers by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony." God spoke to me and said,"You were made to overcome." Those words caused something to click in me and I looked back at every battle...everytime I thought "Well this is it" and there was this surge of power and boldness that came over me while driving drunks all night last night...I realized...I AM a overcomer and its through the words of OUR testimony that helps give others the strength to be overcomers as well.


You wanna get bold? Get sure. Lately thats one thing I have settled in my mind is that the hand of the Lord does not wane but He is able to keep what has been committed into His hand.


Every battle seems to bring greater courage and even though some "wounds" seem fatal they are not.


Upon research into my Scottish ancestry I found the Clan Stewart crest...on it is a Latin inscription that reads.


"Virescit Vulnere Virtus"


"Courage Grows Strong At a Wound"


As someone who struggled with fear and anxiety this spoke to me in a powerful way....I began to think of my life and the growth of boldness and courage and I began to think of all the times its written in scripture,"Fear not, be of good cheer, fear not and be of good courage" in the context of that motto.

[The Lemon]

I know I do not post often - more reading and trying to see other points of view on this site. There are more than a couple observations I have had in the 25+ years of being part of the UPCI:

1. Subjects like Holiness and the manifestations of it seem subjective in specific applications of Biblical principle - can vary greatly from church to church, and can also be geographic as well.

2. Even though some feel UPC is more liberal, in my state of MD I do know that we are really good at preaching and teaching what to do/not do - we are not very good at demonstrating and teaching the love of God - this is a broad statement, I know.

3. Demanding conformance does not equal transformation of thought or spirit.

4. We preach that we can't save ourselves, but that is not what is practiced by most - fit, form, and function usually are emphasized, even though it is under the premise of God working through us.

5. I have known and met many who deal with great depression, and some even medicated - this does not get talked about much, but I have seen a great deal of this.

6. There are many who do leave, who do not go to some extreme - yes some do, but not all. There are also many ministers who stay and are affiliated who do not believe or practice all of the AOF.

These are just a few things, and I'm not being critical - I love the people and respect the elders that I know. I have stayed in spite of quite a lot, including my own battles and issues both personally and doctrinally. Because I have been wrong about many things, I trust God to direct and have refused to just walk away - I would that God would correct me in my own struggles, then to make a decision that could possibly take me and my family out altogether.

[Truthseeker]

I am really frustrated when it comes to church.

[Apostolic1ness]

I am really frustrated when it comes to church.
why?

[Truthseeker]

why?


A whole list of things. The current state of our assembly for starters.

[Jito463]

Also, a lot of folks thought that Sunday School and one or two services per week was enough to save their children. It wasn't, isn't, and never will be. This has to be a daily thing, a continuous nonstop ongoing relationship with God, parents, and kids all involved.

:highfive

[jfrog]

I used to laugh off slippery slope arguments. They are a fallacy afterall. But I no longer find slippery slopes to be a laughing matter.

Slippery slopes are a real phenomenon. They occur because the foundation of a belief has deteriorated into tradition. Once that foundation is tradition and it gets washed away by an argument that reveals it's just tradition then the foundation is lost and if a replacement isn't quickly found then more and more beliefs that were built upon that foundation also crumble.

I believe standards at this point for most churches are based on tradition. Since whatever true foundation that started those standards has deteriorated into just a tradition then it's easy to show that standards are just a tradition and since tradition for the sake of tradition isn't revered in our movement then all the standards start crumbling away.

However, this crumbling of fundamental beliefs also causes other closely related beliefs to be examined and since one belief was based on tradition it becomes much easier to become convinced other fundamental beliefs were also wrong, etc. Before long you see people sliding away from almost everything they once believed, all because one foundation of our beliefs deteriorated into just being tradition.

The cure is to restore the foundation to something that isn't tradition and to remove any beliefs that are only propped up the current tradition based foundation.

[Jason B]

I used to laugh off slippery slope arguments. They are a fallacy afterall. But I no longer find slippery slopes to be a laughing matter.

Slippery slopes are a real phenomenon. They occur because the foundation of a belief has deteriorated into tradition. Once that foundation is tradition and it gets washed away by an argument that reveals it's just tradition then the foundation is lost and if a replacement isn't quickly found then more and more beliefs that were built upon that foundation also crumble.

I believe standards at this point for most churches are based on tradition. Since whatever true foundation that started those standards has deteriorated into just a tradition then it's easy to show that standards are just a tradition and since tradition for the sake of tradition isn't revered in our movement then all the standards start crumbling away.

However, this crumbling of fundamental beliefs also causes other closely related beliefs to be examined and since one belief was based on tradition it becomes much easier to become convinced other fundamental beliefs were also wrong, etc. Before long you see people sliding away from almost everything they once believed, all because one foundation of our beliefs deteriorated into just being tradition.

The cure is to restore the foundation to something that isn't tradition and to remove any beliefs that are only propped up the current tradition based foundation.

I find much to agree with here. And this is why it's so disturbing. It's not just standards, but I see it deteriorate to the point people don't even believe that salvation is in Christ alone, question or deny all the essential elements of the atonement and openly question the authority and inspiration of scriptures. Not only do they no longer think pants on a woman are sinful (and I'd agree there) neither is fornication, homosexuality, drunkenness, drug use, divorce, gambling, etc, etc. It's all just chalked up to being authentic, real, broken, relevant, or whatever. It's maddening. It's hurtful. It's confusing. What happened to some of you people? I can understand differences with standards, even tongues. But don't you love Christ? Isn't He precious to you? Shouldn't you live according to His Word, regardless of your previous experience? I don't understand how you go from prayer meetings, shouting, worship, revival, Word, godly fellowship, and a real experience with God (though some fake it and admit it later) and then turn away, barely attend church, or attend Christianity lite diluted a hundred times over, drink, smoke, cuss, watch and listen to all manner of filth, accept all manner of sin? What? Why? Didn't holiness ever mean anything to you? When you found out it was more than just dress did you just decide not to bother at all? Trade holiness for worldliness and think you win? I don't get it. I don't understand. I fear they may be doing the very thing Hebrews 6 warns about. They have been enlighten, experienced the powers of the age to come. And it's as if it means nothing. As I said in the OP, my heart breaks for them .

Leave a demoninaton, an organization, even a fellowship. But not Christ, not the Word, and find another godly fellowship. After all the body of Christ is one, despite temporal differences. But to walk away completely, either through open unbelief, worldliness, or heresy? Unfathomable.

[Truthseeker]

False conversions is a huge problem in our church. Telling people the received the Holy Ghost when they didn't.

[Michael The Disciple]

Jason

I find much to agree with here. And this is why it's so disturbing. It's not just standards, but I see it deteriorate to the point people don't even believe that salvation is in Christ alone, question or deny all the essential elements of the atonement and openly question the authority and inspiration of scriptures.

Can you give a brief explanation what you mean by the bolded?

[Michael The Disciple]

False conversions is a huge problem in our church. Telling people the received the Holy Ghost when they didn't.

How do you know they did not?

[returnman]

False conversions is a huge problem in our church. Telling people the received the Holy Ghost when they didn't.

I saw this a lot.

[Truthseeker]

How do you know they did not?

Being told they got it but didnt really speak in tongues. Emotional hype

[Truthseeker]

I saw this a lot.

It's very discouraging to me. We have had tent revivals where 40 some people suppose to get it, but dont see them again. Hyped up manipulating alter calls with no real anointing.

[Jason B]

Can you give a brief explanation what you mean by the bolded?

In this instance, I'm talking about people who don't even believe it's necessary to believe in Christ to be saved. Some exes believe Muslims, agnostics, all manner of heathen are saved. Really it goes hand in hand. If you deny the reality of the atonement the why believe people must believe in Christ to be saved.

[Michael The Disciple]

In this instance, I'm talking about people who don't even believe it's necessary to believe in Christ to be saved. Some exes believe Muslims, agnostics, all manner of heathen are saved. Really it goes hand in hand. If you deny the reality of the atonement the why believe people must believe in Christ to be saved.

Who are exes? Evangelicals? I dont know any Pentecostals who believe this except a few Trinity TV Preachers. I have heard the phrase probably hundreds of times "saved by Christ alone" with the meaning of once saved always saved. To me that is a slippery slope to fall into.

[1ofthechosen]

I used to laugh off slippery slope arguments. THEY ARE A FALLACY AFTERALL. But I no longer find slippery slopes to be a laughing matter.


So are they a fallacy, or no laughing matter?

[jfrog]

So are they a fallacy, or no laughing matter?

Both. Just because something doesn’t logically follow (a fallacy) doesn’t mean that the slippery slope phenomenon doesn’t occur.

[Apostolic1ness]

If the scriptures say the foundation of God standeth sure. Then why are you saying it crumbles into tradition? Why not say people are losing their love of truth or similar.

[jfrog]

If the scriptures say the foundation of God standeth sure. Then why are you saying it crumbles into tradition? Why not say people are losing their love of truth or similar.

Whatever truth that caused old time apostolics to practice their separation from the world standards is still out there and true but over time the standards themselves became the focal point instead of the true reason they were practiced in the first place. Over time as that focal point shifted the standards became traditions. Now we are at the point where the tradition is all most know and tradition is shaky foundation. It’s essy to overturn tradition.

[Jason B]

Who are exes? Evangelicals? I dont know any Pentecostals who believe this except a few Trinity TV Preachers. I have heard the phrase probably hundreds of times "saved by Christ alone" with the meaning of once saved always saved. To me that is a slippery slope to fall into.

Ex oneness Pentecostals. Several who posted here.

[votivesoul]

Being told they got it but didnt really speak in tongues. Emotional hype

Did you make sure to tell them that they didn't receive the Holy Spirit afterward?

[Truthseeker]

Did you make sure to tell them that they didn't receive the Holy Spirit afterward?


No, most we never see again anyway. Plus, when it's accepted by others and the ministry that they got it, would be very hard to undo it.

[Michael The Disciple]

No, most we never see again anyway. Plus, when it's accepted by others and the ministry that they got it, would be very hard to undo it.

Maybe the ones you dont see again went to another Church?

[Truthseeker]

Maybe the ones you dont see again went to another Church?

Nah, over 40 get filled in one thre day revival and see none again after 2 weeks?

[jfrog]

Nah, over 40 get filled in one thre day revival and see none again after 2 weeks?

Yea, something seems fishy there.

[Michael The Disciple]

Nah, over 40 get filled in one thre day revival and see none again after 2 weeks?

I get it. It could be that a great many who think they have the Spirit do not. Perhaps only those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled?

[votivesoul]

No, most we never see again anyway. Plus, when it's accepted by others and the ministry that they got it, would be very hard to undo it.

So, since you don't see most again and since others including the ministry say they already got it and because it would be hard to undo, you're going to let them die in their deception and not even try?

[Apostolic1ness]

Ive seen this before in other churches. get some Evangelist in, do outreach like crazy fill the house up with folks wanting those free bicycles and gift cards. Preach Acts 2:38 to them, go around laying hands on everyone pray for everyone shake em and slap em in the mouth till they catch the spirit, and they leave with the free bike and gift cards and never come back. Or some come as long as they are getting the freebees and attention and gone when the well runs dry.

[Truthseeker]

So, since you don't see most again and since others including the ministry say they already got it and because it would be hard to undo, you're going to let them die in their deception and not even try?



That would lie at the feet of the leadership.

[Truthseeker]

So, since you don't see most again and since others including the ministry say they already got it and because it would be hard to undo, you're going to let them die in their deception and not even try?



That would lie at the feet of the leadership.

[hometown guy]

Ive seen this before in other churches. get some Evangelist in, do outreach like crazy fill the house up with folks wanting those free bicycles and gift cards. Preach Acts 2:38 to them, go around laying hands on everyone pray for everyone shake em and slap em in the mouth till they catch the spirit, and they leave with the free bike and gift cards and never come back. Or some come as long as they are getting the freebees and attention and gone when the well runs dry.

Nothing wrong with filling up the house this way... I know a lady that is in church from years ago because they were giving away a 2 liter Pepsi. I also know many people that are still in church today that came to “ help “ someone win in an attendance drive. We have a bus route that we started from giving a way school supplies... I remember people in the church mad and saying “ they are just coming for the free stuff”. Personally I think most people think our church is the same is every other denominational church so I don’t care how someone gets them to our church all I care is that they get their and hear the real truth of God’s word. There was 500 plus people that were at Bethany loving the blessing but only 120 were willing to show up to church and stick it out in acts.

[Wilsonwas]

Whatever truth that caused old time apostolics to practice their separation from the world standards is still out there and true but over time the standards themselves became the focal point instead of the true reason they were practiced in the first place. Over time as that focal point shifted the standards became traditions. Now we are at the point where the tradition is all most know and tradition is shaky foundation. It’s essy to overturn tradition.

I have seen spirit filled people that had little in common with standards, and standard people with the slick 50 down to the shoes that are hateful.
But....
You can find them in any assembly, folk that act the part to be favored of the folk in their chosen organizations. In the 80s all the girls had the "Pentecostal Poof" but it was the preachers kid that told me I could "get lucky" with the one I was dating at the time, either he was jealous and defaming her character- or he was bragging after using her....but neither of these are traits one expects of A/P. The poof did not make any of them saved, neither do the ties and white shirts on the guys.
Somewhere it seems we chose form over substance and beleive that poofs and ties are evidence of salvation rather than fruits of the spirit drawing the lost.
Judging by the last years youth assembly though, some of these kids seem to get it....and I am encouraged by that.

[hometown guy]

Funny how bitter people always start off with how hateful people are that have “ standards “ in their life and all the evil things they do.

[Wilsonwas]

Funny how bitter people always start off with how hateful people are that have “ standards “ in their life and all the evil things they do.
Was that aimed at me...

You dont know me from Adam but you judge. I am not bitter, but I can get some righteous indignation all rolled up in some sushi for ya...

I have seen the most hate filled people that looked straight outta the "we dont smoke and we dont chew, and we dont run with the girls that do" _Desoto ad perfect from the 50s, _[which seems the age of conformity coincides with the "standards",] bunch that complain about anything sung in any minor key because church songs "ought notta have none of them BLACK keys on the piaanny used" with their fake lovey "bless your heart" and "we so glad to see you, come in here and let Jesus clean that beard off your face", tone - hiding behind a smile only the Grinch would be proud of.

AND...

I have seen some folk with a street swager that paid their dues riding in the back of the bus because of the color of their skin, that would hug a brother in christ that was a casual bearded white dude, like they also lost their mother because to them - you beleive- and you are their brother.

Any guess which church is growing.

I know an AME pastor that preaches straight 3 step oneness, with a beard. I know many women of the Lord with shorter hair and pants, that are prophets and have more love for people than I can skake loose out of my whole self.

I have loved folks that loved me - even at my growly worst- that could read what was going on with me because of the gifts of the spirit in them....one of whom was a divorcee..."gasps" /s.

And I watched my wife, now departed for her reward, take the lot in life that Diabetics with kidney failure are dealt and turn it into a soul winning positive right until that last night in the hospital.

All the suits ties, clean shaved, and ugly-dress wearing in the world will not save a single person. But ...."If you love me, keep my commandments "....."And the second is like unto the first, Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Sometimes I think there is a generation that thinks the old ways lead to looking like old people. And would condemn anyone that would propose otherwise. Evidenrly you are one of them...

Good day sir...

[Jason B]

Funny how bitter people always start off with how hateful people are that have “ standards “ in their life and all the evil things they do.

Because someone related a story they are bitter? Unless you believe this fellow made it up and is a complete list, then I don't see how bitterness figures in here. (Of course it is the internet so all info is considered dubious).

However it is simple fact that that many folks who live by the outward standards and are thus well accepted within the church, do not consistently live out the holiness they project through outward adornrment and conformity.

[hometown guy]

Because someone related a story they are bitter? Unless you believe this fellow made it up and is a complete list, then I don't see how bitterness figures in here. (Of course it is the internet so all info is considered dubious).

However it is simple fact that that many folks who live by the outward standards and are thus well accepted within the church, do not consistently live out the holiness they project through outward adornrment and conformity.

Lol I’m glad your the fact checker. How many studies did you do to find the facts? Yup just what I thought. Liberal are the same in politics as they are in the church. Have bad apples and you all call it the majority and claim it as facts.

[votivesoul]

That would lie at the feet of the leadership.

What an apathetic cop out.

Do you not know that if anyone errs from the truth and you convert him you SAVE THAT SOUL FROM DEATH and hide a multitude of sins?

This nonchalant approach you've got going is sub-par Christianity at its worst.

[Apostolic1ness]

Nothing wrong with filling up the house this way... I know a lady that is in church from years ago because they were giving away a 2 liter Pepsi. I also know many people that are still in church today that came to “ help “ someone win in an attendance drive. We have a bus route that we started from giving a way school supplies... I remember people in the church mad and saying “ they are just coming for the free stuff”. Personally I think most people think our church is the same is every other denominational church so I don’t care how someone gets them to our church all I care is that they get their and hear the real truth of God’s word. There was 500 plus people that were at Bethany loving the blessing but only 120 were willing to show up to church and stick it out in acts.

you can bribe some people some of the time but you cant bribe all people all of the time.... is that a saying?

[Apostolic1ness]

Was that aimed at me...

You dont know me from Adam but you judge. I am not bitter, but I can get some righteous indignation all rolled up in some sushi for ya...

I have seen the most hate filled people that looked straight outta the "we dont smoke and we dont chew, and we dont run with the girls that do" _Desoto ad perfect from the 50s, _[which seems the age of conformity coincides with the "standards",] bunch that complain about anything sung in any minor key because church songs "ought notta have none of them BLACK keys on the piaanny used" with their fake lovey "bless your heart" and "we so glad to see you, come in here and let Jesus clean that beard off your face", tone - hiding behind a smile only the Grinch would be proud of.

AND...

I have seen some folk with a street swager that paid their dues riding in the back of the bus because of the color of their skin, that would hug a brother in christ that was a casual bearded white dude, like they also lost their mother because to them - you beleive- and you are their brother.

Any guess which church is growing.

I know an AME pastor that preaches straight 3 step oneness, with a beard. I know many women of the Lord with shorter hair and pants, that are prophets and have more love for people than I can skake loose out of my whole self.

I have loved folks that loved me - even at my growly worst- that could read what was going on with me because of the gifts of the spirit in them....one of whom was a divorcee..."gasps" /s.

And I watched my wife, now departed for her reward, take the lot in life that Diabetics with kidney failure are dealt and turn it into a soul winning positive right until that last night in the hospital.

All the suits ties, clean shaved, and ugly-dress wearing in the world will not save a single person. But ...."If you love me, keep my commandments "....."And the second is like unto the first, Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Sometimes I think there is a generation that thinks the old ways lead to looking like old people. And would condemn anyone that would propose otherwise. Evidenrly you are one of them...

Good day sir...

Love is good and right but love doesn't take the place of modesty and Holiness standards, they should accompany one another its not one or the other. Women prophets with cut hair and pants? not on the coldest day in hell. Let me guess with makeup and jewelry too.

[Michael The Disciple]

Love is good and right but love doesn't take the place of modesty and Holiness standards, they should accompany one another its not one or the other. Women prophets with cut hair and pants? not on the coldest day in hell. Let me guess with makeup and jewelry too.

I can tell you there are women who prophesy, wear pants, and have cut hair.

[Apostolic1ness]

I can tell you there are women who prophesy, wear pants, and have cut hair.

Yea they go against the clear teaching of the scripture and dishonor their head and God uses them as a prophet to whom?

[Michael The Disciple]

Yea they go against the clear teaching of the scripture and dishonor their head and God uses them as a prophet to whom?

I never said they were "prophets" did I? I have had women like you seem to despise prophesy to me more accurately than any man has.

So what is the CLEAR TEACHING?

[Wilsonwas]

I can tell you there are women who prophesy, wear pants, and have cut hair.
Yep, the statements made in dress and word of the world have moved on, but the standards remain the same. Even though you have to pull legal stuff out of the old teztiment Jewish/Hebrew faith to sustain it.

I will take the loving people God moves through, rather that the hold the fort bunch that dont even realize they are the ones pushing off a slippery slope.

[Apostolic1ness]

I can tell you there are women who prophesy, wear pants, and have cut hair.

you said they prophesy but to whom do they prophesy?
the clear teaching of a covering.

[Wilsonwas]

Love is good and right but love doesn't take the place of modesty and Holiness standards, they should accompany one another its not one or the other. Women prophets with cut hair and pants? not on the coldest day in hell. Let me guess with makeup and jewelry too.
No makeup and Jewelry is no problem unless its gaudy. But you are stuck not only up.....but in the past. Stay therd ya relic

[Apostolic1ness]

No makeup and Jewelry is no problem unless its gaudy. But you are stuck not only up.....but in the past. Stay therd ya relic
I guess you have scriptures to provide to sustain the jewelry and makeup being ok. lets not go calling names "stuck up?" thats not showing the love of God?

[Michael The Disciple]

you said they prophesy but to whom do they prophesy?
the clear teaching of a covering.

To me and to others. Does your wife cover with a headcovering? The women in your Church? Why not?

[Apostolic1ness]

To me and to others. Does your wife cover with a headcovering? The women in your Church? Why not?

So your baiting now. Are you for women prophesying with their head uncovered. If they do is it of God and is it right according to the scriptures? This conversation has nothing to do with any one of our families unless you bring your own into it. My family is off limits.

[Michael The Disciple]

So your baiting now. Are you for women prophesying with their head uncovered. If they do is it of God and is it right according to the scriptures? This conversation has nothing to do with any one of our families unless you bring your own into it. My family is off limits.

You said this was clear. I think it is too. You have condemned women who "cut" their hair, seemingly irregardless if it is still LONG.

If it be CLEAR to you concerning the headcovering and you dont want to bring your Church into it I will ask this way.

Why do most (White) Apostolic women refuse to cover their heads when praying or prophesying as instructed by the Holy Spirit of God?

[Apostolic1ness]

You said this was clear. I think it is too. You have condemned women who "cut" their hair, seemingly irregardless if it is still LONG.

If it be CLEAR to you concerning the headcovering and you dont want to bring your Church into it I will ask this way.

Why do most (White) Apostolic women refuse to cover their heads when praying or prophesying as instructed by the Holy Spirit of God?

so lets stick to the topic. the issue was an individual made a comment that they know women prophets with cut hair and pants. Assuming they were not wearing a vale I said they were dishonoring their head and going against the clear teaching of the scriptures, the clear teaching is that women must be covered when prophesying of praying. Do you disagree that the women in question are disobeying the scriptures? No your church not my church not whites, the women in question.

[jfrog]

Funny how bitter people always start off with how hateful people are that have “ standards “ in their life and all the evil things they do.

I think calling people bitter when they aren’t tends to have a way of making them bitter.

[Michael The Disciple]

so lets stick to the topic. the issue was an individual made a comment that they know women prophets with cut hair and pants. Assuming they were not wearing a vale I said they were dishonoring their head and going against the clear teaching of the scriptures, the clear teaching is that women must be covered when prophesying of praying. Do you disagree that the women in question are disobeying the scriptures? No your church not my church not whites, the women in question.

I would answer by saying what is clear at this time to you and me may not be clear to them at this time in their lives. I would say women ministering without a headcovering are ministering out of Gods will.

And yet having said that I dont deny they may have a real prophetic gift. I certainly have seen this. To me its like how does God use Preachers who teach the observance of Baals birthday under the guise of Christmas?

Is he REALLY using them? Are they just tares?

Or perhaps he may use people for a season to bless and encourage their faith while he deals with issues in their lives?

[Truthseeker]

ReWhat an apathetic cop out.

Do you not know that if anyone errs from the truth and you convert him you SAVE THAT SOUL FROM DEATH and hide a multitude of sins?

This nonchalant approach you've got going is sub-par Christianity at its worst.



Call it what you want, but It will only change when the leadership addresses it and change it.

[Esaias]

Yea they go against the clear teaching of the scripture and dishonor their head and God uses them as a prophet to whom?

Paul said women who prophesy with their head uncovered dishonour their head. He did not say they do not really prophesy.

Pentecost has always maintained that the operation of gifts in a person's life does not necessarily validate the person's lifestyle. Everything must be judged by the Word.

[Esaias]

Yep, the statements made in dress and word of the world have moved on, but the standards remain the same. Even though you have to pull legal stuff out of the old teztiment Jewish/Hebrew faith to sustain it.

I will take the loving people God moves through, rather that the hold the fort bunch that dont even realize they are the ones pushing off a slippery slope.

I don't think you realize it, but you are coming across as very judgmental and holier than thou, the very thing you are complaining about in others.

Also, your comment about the old "teztiment" indicates a rather low view of the Scriptures, as well as being grossly uninformed as to what the Jewish faith is (it is NOT "old testament Hebrew faith" but rabbinical talmudism).

[Wilsonwas]

I don't think you realize it, but you are coming across as very judgmental and holier than thou, the very thing you are complaining about in others.

Also, your comment about the old "teztiment" indicates a rather low view of the Scriptures, as well as being grossly uninformed as to what the Jewish faith is (it is NOT "old testament Hebrew faith" but rabbinical talmudism).


1. Yes, I misspell on little phone keyboards, thank you for noticing.

2. I dont care to get into a detailed look at Jewish religion. I just think pulling single scripture from the old testiment law is a terrible way to construct doctrine.

3. I am not advocating against standards. I am saying that there are quite a few preachers that are standing on them based on stuff thought and reflecting values of the 40s-70s. This- as the world turns makes the above stretches of scripture interpetation even greater and more transparent as being simply tradition of men. Once a single doubt take root, it will then lead to the slippery slope mentioned.

4. My angry response was triggered by the flippent and accusing reply of the person to whom it was aimed...but I keep some in reserve for the next idiot that throws song books, or hits people. So I can get ouuta there before they have to call the cops...

..end of rant....

[Esaias]

1. Yes, I misspell on little phone keyboards, thank you for noticing.

I is on the opposite end from a or e, so it looked like an intentional mis spelling.

2. I dont care to get into a detailed look at Jewish religion. I just think pulling single scripture from the old testiment law is a terrible way to construct doctrine.


What is doctrine, how many verses are required before you consider something doctrine, and which single verses are being referred to here?

3. I am not advocating against standards. I am saying that there are quite a few preachers that are standing on them based on stuff thought and reflecting values of the 40s-70s. This- as the world turns makes the above stretches of scripture interpetation even greater and more transparent as being simply tradition of men. Once a single doubt take root, it will then lead to the slippery slope mentioned.

What standards unique to the 40s-70s are the problem?


4. My angry response was triggered by the flippent and accusing reply of the person to whom it was aimed...but I keep some in reserve for the next idiot that throws song books, or hits people. So I can get ouuta there before they have to call the cops...

..end of rant....

Well, putting "people who love God" in a separate category than anyone who agrees with "conservative standards" is just saying all who keep conservative standards don't love God. That ki d of talk should be directed at any particular person, because the statement itself is all encompassing, and includes a lot of people other than the one guy you were talking g to. Just saying.

[hometown guy]

Was that aimed at me...

You dont know me from Adam but you judge. I am not bitter, but I can get some righteous indignation all rolled up in some sushi for ya...

I have seen the most hate filled people that looked straight outta the "we dont smoke and we dont chew, and we dont run with the girls that do" _Desoto ad perfect from the 50s, _[which seems the age of conformity coincides with the "standards",] bunch that complain about anything sung in any minor key because church songs "ought notta have none of them BLACK keys on the piaanny used" with their fake lovey "bless your heart" and "we so glad to see you, come in here and let Jesus clean that beard off your face", tone - hiding behind a smile only the Grinch would be proud of.

AND...

I have seen some folk with a street swager that paid their dues riding in the back of the bus because of the color of their skin, that would hug a brother in christ that was a casual bearded white dude, like they also lost their mother because to them - you beleive- and you are their brother.

Any guess which church is growing.

I know an AME pastor that preaches straight 3 step oneness, with a beard. I know many women of the Lord with shorter hair and pants, that are prophets and have more love for people than I can skake loose out of my whole self.

I have loved folks that loved me - even at my growly worst- that could read what was going on with me because of the gifts of the spirit in them....one of whom was a divorcee..."gasps" /s.

And I watched my wife, now departed for her reward, take the lot in life that Diabetics with kidney failure are dealt and turn it into a soul winning positive right until that last night in the hospital.

All the suits ties, clean shaved, and ugly-dress wearing in the world will not save a single person. But ...."If you love me, keep my commandments "....."And the second is like unto the first, Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Sometimes I think there is a generation that thinks the old ways lead to looking like old people. And would condemn anyone that would propose otherwise. Evidenrly you are one of them...

Good day sir...


Right you ain’t bitter lol

[votivesoul]

Re



Call it what you want, but It will only change when the leadership addresses it and change it.

You realize the leadership of your church, if what you say is happening is happening, are under the judgment of God, too, not just the deceived thinking they have the Holy Spirit but don't crowd?

Don't you love any of these people enough to get in their way and at least TRY, regardless of whether or not it will change anything?

[votivesoul]

Right you ain’t bitter lol

The brother's wife just died some mere days ago. Lay off, will you?

[hometown guy]

The brother's wife just died some mere days ago. Lay off, will you?

For one, how am I suppose to know that? for 2 if he can dish it out I could too regardless of his or my circumstances. I’m not the one that threw a broad judgement but he did.. So bottom line I guess I’m tell you personally for you to lay off lol

[hometown guy]

@wilsonwas I’m sorry for your loss. I really will pray that God gives you peace beyond all understanding.

[jfrog]

For one, how am I suppose to know that? for 2 if he can dish it out I could too regardless of his or my circumstances. I’m not the one that threw a broad judgement but he did.. So bottom line I guess I’m tell you personally for you to lay off lol

What a wonderful Christian response to learning about such painful news...

[Esaias]

What a wonderful Christian response to learning about such painful news...

Are you a Christian? You did not seem to be too sure when asked about your faith. Bottom line, if you aren't a Christian, you don't get a say-so on the subject of how "Christian" a Christian should act, walk, or talk. You can have whatever opinion you want, but honestly? A non Christian's opinion of Christians is irrelevant. Outsiders' opinions simply don't matter, when you get down to it.

[jfrog]

Are you a Christian? You did not seem to be too sure when asked about your faith. Bottom line, if you aren't a Christian, you don't get a say-so on the subject of how "Christian" a Christian should act, walk, or talk. You can have whatever opinion you want, but honestly? A non Christian's opinion of Christians is irrelevant. Outsiders' opinions simply don't matter, when you get down to it.

So as a Christian do you get any say so on how a non-Christian should act? Or since you ain't part of that club is your opinion of anything non-Christians do irrelevant?

[hometown guy]

What a wonderful Christian response to learning about such painful news...

Actually if I responded like Jesus would you all would really say I ain’t acting like a Christian.

[Esaias]

So as a Christian do you get any say so on how a non-Christian should act? Or since you ain't part of that club is your opinion of anything non-Christians do irrelevant?

I don't go around scolding Muslims for "not being very Islamic". I don't chide pagans for "not being very pagan-like." I don't tell atheists how "unatheistical" they are behaving. Any opinion I had of how true to their belief system they were acting would be wholly irrelevant to them.

[Apostolic1ness]

Actually if I responded like Jesus would you all would really say I ain’t acting like a Christian.

For kicks and giggles.

In the words of Ronald Reagan "I knew Jesus, he was a friend of mine. And you sir are no Jesus."

[jfrog]

I don't go around scolding Muslims for "not being very Islamic". I don't chide pagans for "not being very pagan-like." I don't tell atheists how "unatheistical" they are behaving. Any opinion I had of how true to their belief system they were acting would be wholly irrelevant to them.

That’s cause they aren’t being hypocrites. Make no mistake though, you have no problem telling them how they should act. That they need Jesus etc.

[hometown guy]

That’s cause they aren’t being hypocrites. Make no mistake though, you have no problem telling them how they should act. That they need Jesus etc.

Your right only oneness Pentecostal with standard are hypocrites right? Lol

[Esaias]

That’s cause they aren’t being hypocrites. Make no mistake though, you have no problem telling them how they should act. That they need Jesus etc.

I don't think you have the capacity to really engage in this discussion.

[Jason B]

Lol I’m glad your the fact checker. How many studies did you do to find the facts? Yup just what I thought. Liberal are the same in politics as they are in the church. Have bad apples and you all call it the majority and claim it as facts.

Just curious. What makes me "liberal"?

[hometown guy]

Just curious. What makes me "liberal"?

In your case your fake facts that you were trying to enlighten us all about. Trump has the same problem with fake news.