What are the differences?

[JamesGlen]

In the “fruit production” and/or lifestyle (as it relates to genuine discipleship), of a disciple of Jesus Christ, that loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength that hasn’t received His spirit evidenced w tongues..
Vs.
Another person the same, except after they’ve received the Holyghost, evidenced w tongues?

Are the people that have spoken in tongues for years any more “Christ like” than other genuinely sincere Christians that have not?

Howso?

[Apostolic1ness]

In the “fruit production” and/or lifestyle (as it relates to genuine discipleship), of a disciple of Jesus Christ, that loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength that hasn’t received His spirit evidenced w tongues..
Vs.
Another person the same, except after they’ve received the Holyghost, evidenced w tongues?

Are the people that have spoken in tongues for years any more “Christ like” than other genuinely sincere Christians that have not?

Howso?

the short answer is, yes the person with the Holy Ghost is more Christ like for the simple fact that they have received the same spirit that was also in Christ. As to the other person the Spirit of Christ is not in them.

[Michael The Disciple]

In the “fruit production” and/or lifestyle (as it relates to genuine discipleship), of a disciple of Jesus Christ, that loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength that hasn’t received His spirit evidenced w tongues..
Vs.
Another person the same, except after they’ve received the Holyghost, evidenced w tongues?

Are the people that have spoken in tongues for years any more “Christ like” than other genuinely sincere Christians that have not?

Howso?

First off of those who have NOT received the Holy Ghost with tongues there are two groups. One group of Church goers attend Churches that are liberal and support sin. They perhaps confess Jesus but also pursue the world. Their teachers are generally tares serving the devil.

There are smaller groups who do not accept the evidence doctrine who nonetheless throw themselves into the teachings of Christ wholeheartedly. I'm thinking of groups particularly who teach tongues is not the ONLY initial evidence but may be real for SOME but not all. They strive to do Gods will and may come across actually seeming Christ Like. IMO if they are taught to take God seriously they will be able to win victories in various battles because they are exercising faith in the word of God.

Then there are those who have received the Holy Spirit baptism and lets say attend a Pentecostal or Charismatic Church. Many of these when you get to know them seem much the same (or even less Christ like) as those who dont have it.

In such cases the POTENTIAL to walk as Jesus walked is there but they are not TRAINED IN DISCIPLESHIP. They are not taught very basic truths such as putting Jesus above EVERYONE OR EVERYTHING.

That is taking up the cross and denying themselves. Abiding in Jesus always in prayer and exercising faith in his word. To many times they are taught if they quit drugs, drinking, alcohol, and whoredoms they are overcomers!

Well to overcome such things is a great starting place but from my own personal experience of 44 years around Pentecostal/Charismatic people very few of them place a high value upon the teachings of Jesus In the sermon on the mount. This is when one is getting truly serious with him. This is the bulk of his commandments.

Many Pastors only teach on this kind of discipleship every few years if even that! So those sheep who DO have the Spirit who should be able to obey ALL of the will of God are often discouraged to follow his commands.

Things like meekness and turning the other cheek are made to seem "sissified". Heart purity is ignored while the doctrines of men such as "shave only" or "obey the standards of the Pastor" are drilled into him.

So altho the Spirit filled believer CAN AND SHOULD be like Jesus the quality of the doctrine he is taught will have much to do with where he winds up. So we wind up with situations where those who have the Holy Ghost but are taught to obey mens standards come across perhaps not even as Christ like as others who without the Spirit who having been taught the commandments of Christ more fully at least try to follow.

[Esaias]

In the “fruit production” and/or lifestyle (as it relates to genuine discipleship), of a disciple of Jesus Christ, that loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength that hasn’t received His spirit evidenced w tongues..
Vs.
Another person the same, except after they’ve received the Holyghost, evidenced w tongues?

Are the people that have spoken in tongues for years any more “Christ like” than other genuinely sincere Christians that have not?

Howso?

The "fruit of the Spirit" described in Galatians 5:22-23 and Ephesians 5:9) are the identifying characteristics of the Spirit's working and leading. They are not presented in such a way that we could conclude ONLY those who have received the Holy Ghost can have the things described as "fruit of the Spirit", however.

Plenty of people, including abject sinners and infidels, can be long suffering, for example. Temperance was a cardinal virtue not only in Judaism, but Stoicism and other Graeco-Roman philosophical schools and many religions and Mystery Cults, not to mention a virtue admired by practically all peoples everywhere at all times. Plenty of people have joy regardless of religion, and even sinners love themselves, family, friends, and even their enemies in some cases. Lots of hippy dippy new agers are gentle and feel great peace and live peacefully.

So, the Bible isn't saying you can't have these things unless you have the Spirit. But it is saying if you DO have the Spirit and are being led by the Spirit, these things will be prevalent in your life and character. Thus, those who do NOT have these things are likely NOT led by the Spirit and possibly don't have the Spirit to begin with - regardless of how "ecstatic" or "supernatural" or "apostolic" they appear to be.

Now, as for the fruit of righteousness, that is, genuine obedience to God, that is the fruit that results from believing Jesus (which includes following His teachings and commandments). The Spirit certainly empowers the individual to obey God and live righteously (Ezekiel 36:27). In fact, ALL inclination to obey God is a leading of the Spirit, that is to say, such inclinations or desires are introduced to the individual by an influence of God's Spirit. Therefore, even those who have not received the Spirit may be inclined to obey God and follow righteousness.

But the key is to understand that genuine righteousness is more than just do's and dont's. It is wholly dependent upon being in Christ, so that righteousness = being in Christ. Further, the Spirit is given to lead us into and in Christ, that is, to lead us in righteousness. So those who have not yet received the Spirit may be said to be "in Christ" (assuming they have repented and been baptised into His Name and become His followers), but being in Christ involves even more than just living a Biblically ethical lifestyle: it also includes supernatural contact with the Father by His Spirit.

In the Old Testament such persons were called prophets. In the New Testament they are called Christians. See Numbers 11:29, for example.

Also, the Spirit's work in the genuine Pentecostal baptism includes the purification of the heart by faith (Acts 15:9). This is a Divine act resulting from and in some sense synonymous with receiving the Holy Ghost, and cannot be done by mere personal effort or initiative. We are told to purify our hearts (James 4:8), but this is done by availing ourselves of the Spirit's purging influence, not by our own efforts at scrubbing ourselves clean.

Lastly, one cannot effectively minister in the Body by the Spirit unless they have the Holy Ghost. While God can prophesy through a donkey, that is not at all the ideal nor is it normative or even desirable.

[jfrog]

In the “fruit production” and/or lifestyle (as it relates to genuine discipleship), of a disciple of Jesus Christ, that loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength that hasn’t received His spirit evidenced w tongues..
Vs.
Another person the same, except after they’ve received the Holyghost, evidenced w tongues?

Are the people that have spoken in tongues for years any more “Christ like” than other genuinely sincere Christians that have not?

Howso?

Define Christ like.

Personally I would say they are not any different in Christ likeness but it really depends on your definition of Christlike.

[votivesoul]

Romans 8:9 makes it pretty clear that anyone who has not received the Spirit doesn't belong to Christ, making such people not Christian by name, no matter what they call themselves.

So, there aren't two categories of Christians, those filled with the Spirit and those not filled with the Spirit.

[JamesGlen]

Romans 8:9 makes it pretty clear that anyone who has not received the Spirit doesn't belong to Christ, making such people not Christian by name, no matter what they call themselves.

So, there aren't two categories of Christians, those filled with the Spirit and those not filled with the Spirit.

“Are”, I think is what u meant.




I bet JW’s say they are Spirit filled.

[FlamingZword]

“Are”, I think is what u meant.

I bet JW’s say they are Spirit filled.

anybody can say they are Spirit filled. it doesn't make it so. :)

[Esaias]

JWs do NOT say they are Spirit filled, that is reserved for the 144,000.

[votivesoul]

“Are”, I think is what u meant.




I bet JW’s say they are Spirit filled.

You and Romans 8:9 don't agree. Take it up with the Boss.

[Esaias]

Romans 8:9 makes it pretty clear that anyone who has not received the Spirit doesn't belong to Christ, making such people not Christian by name, no matter what they call themselves.

So, there aren't two categories of Christians, those filled with the Spirit and those not filled with the Spirit.

What of the guy who hears the gospel, repents, gets baptized in Christ's name, but has not yet received the Holy Ghost?

[votivesoul]

What of the guy who hears the gospel, repents, gets baptized in Christ's name, but has not yet received the Holy Ghost?

If any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Believers are adopted by the Holy Spirit, and it is through the Spirit of God's Son whereby people are able to "cry Abba". Without the Spirit it is impossible to be born again. It is the Spirit that anoints or christens (makes Christ-like) a believer, and etc..

Until then a person may say that they subscribe to the Christian religion and believe it and its claims as true and even practie it as a way of life, but they cannot say they are Christlike (i.e. a Christian) in any fully literal, actual sense until the Spirit of Christ adopts and anoints and gives them new life, etc.

The question then as per the original post is about speaking in tongues (which I didn't even address; it appears it was assumed to be implied?). If it's not the only evidence of anyone receiving the Holy Spirit, then per your question, one could argue that such a person (in your query) likely received the Spirit at some point in his experience, making the issue moot.

But if speaking with other tongues is the only evidence of anyone receiving the Holy Spirit, then it's a very wonderful thing that the person in your question has experienced, but they still need to press on until they receive the Spirit, or they do not have the right to claim they belong to the Lord, have been adopted, are born again, or have been anointed, that is, all of which makes a person Christlike, or Christian.

[JamesGlen]

You and Romans 8:9 don't agree. Take it up with the Boss.

I just misunderstood the 2nd paragraph of your post, friend.







So they think they’ve got this 144,000 pegged. 144K Spirit filled JW’s...mercy.

[JamesGlen]

What of the guy who hears the gospel, repents, gets baptized in Christ's name, but has not yet received the Holy Ghost?

If any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Believers are adopted by the Holy Spirit, and it is through the Spirit of God's Son whereby people are able to "cry Abba". Without the Spirit it is impossible to be born again. It is the Spirit that anoints or christens (makes Christ-like) a believer, and etc..

Until then a person may say that they subscribe to the Christian religion and believe it and its claims as true and even practie it as a way of life, but they cannot say they are Christlike (i.e. a Christian) in any fully literal, actual sense until the Spirit of Christ adopts and anoints and gives them new life, etc.

The question then as per the original post is about speaking in tongues (which I didn't even address; it appears it was assumed to be implied?). If it's not the only evidence of anyone receiving the Holy Spirit, then per your question, one could argue that such a person (in your query) likely received the Spirit at some point in his experience, making the issue moot.

But if speaking with other tongues is the only evidence of anyone receiving the Holy Spirit, then it's a very wonderful thing that the person in your question has experienced, but they still need to press on until they receive the Spirit, or they do not have the right to claim they belong to the Lord, have been adopted, are born again, or have been anointed, that is, all of which makes a person Christlike, or Christian.

That guy, would be my dad.
Never met w the church. Around 4 years ago, my elder pastor came to my parents house(my mom had explained things off and on to my dad for 40 years, he never “hooked up” w it)and explained the message to my dad. He “hit his knees” and asked for forgiveness as a sinner(following the pastors lead) and that evening was baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.
My dad was at that time noticeably slipping w Alzheimer’s, but he could still personally understand that he wasn’t right w God, so he was trying to get right w God.
Since then, he is much worse(nothing shy of a daily nightmare for my mom and sometimes my siblings and I, trying to handle him), almost in nursing home now.

But anyway, never spoke in tongues as evidence of being Spirit filled. So I suppose he falls in the category of not going to make it, because he was never spirit filled born again.
I guess most would probably back “the pressure” off a little to help a guy like me to feel better and say, “well, your dads in God’s hands, we’re not the judge”....


I realize of course, there are tons of others (in our “3 step faith”)w this same dilemma. I am reminded of the verse, “How much more shall He give the Spirit, or heavenly gifts, (whatever that verse exactly reads) to those that ask... And if we do the first 2 steps, He’s the baptized of the 3rd step...but in my dads case, well....back to Gods the judge not us, He’s got His reasons, and my dad never spoke in tongues, so...it’s looking like the lake of fire, no?


It’s in God’s hands. That’s where I’ll leave it.
Doesn’t matter anyway, the JW’s have the 144k tickets!

[navygoat1998]

What of the guy who hears the gospel, repents, gets baptized in Christ's name, but has not yet received the Holy Ghost?

What about the guy who hears the Gospel, repents, and receives the Holy Ghost, but has not been Baptized in the Jesus' Name?

[Evang.Benincasa]

What about the guy who hears the Gospel, repents, and receives the Holy Ghost, but has not been Baptized in the Jesus' Name?

I guess your hypothetical neophyte didn’t hear as well as you claim.
Wholeness of the Bible is what needs to be obeyed. American Churchanity is all abbreviation and opinion. Repent, and be baptized all of you in the name of Jesus Christ and you will receive the Holy Ghost. So if your neophyte really was listening he or she would of been baptized in Jesus name.

[votivesoul]

If any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Believers are adopted by the Holy Spirit, and it is through the Spirit of God's Son whereby people are able to "cry Abba". Without the Spirit it is impossible to be born again. It is the Spirit that anoints or christens (makes Christ-like) a believer, and etc..

Until then a person may say that they subscribe to the Christian religion and believe it and its claims as true and even practie it as a way of life, but they cannot say they are Christlike (i.e. a Christian) in any fully literal, actual sense until the Spirit of Christ adopts and anoints and gives them new life, etc.

The question then as per the original post is about speaking in tongues (which I didn't even address; it appears it was assumed to be implied?). If it's not the only evidence of anyone receiving the Holy Spirit, then per your question, one could argue that such a person (in your query) likely received the Spirit at some point in his experience, making the issue moot.

But if speaking with other tongues is the only evidence of anyone receiving the Holy Spirit, then it's a very wonderful thing that the person in your question has experienced, but they still need to press on until they receive the Spirit, or they do not have the right to claim they belong to the Lord, have been adopted, are born again, or have been anointed, that is, all of which makes a person Christlike, or Christian.

I would like to add that Paul wrote we are all baptized by one Spirit into the Body (of Christ), so we see that receiving the Holy Spirit is the only means whereby a person may correctly state that they are a member of the Body of Christ, outside of which there is no salvation.

[votivesoul]

What of the guy who hears the gospel, repents, gets baptized in Christ's name, but has not yet received the Holy Ghost?

To keep going on this, I would also state that such a person can rightly say they are being drawn into a saving relationship with the Lord through the work of the Holy Spirit, but, I would also caution with the following:

The only way the church in Jerusalem was convinced by Simon Peter that the Gentiles were genuinely granted repentance by God was that He gave Cornelius and his household the Holy Spirit the same as He had given them.

Short of Simon's testimony about the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit, it's hard to believe the Jerusalem church would have been convinced that God had granted them repentance at all.

So, saying that to say this:

Lots of people "repent" ans get baptized, even in the name of Jesus, but it's hard to truly measure whether or not God granted them the repentance they claimed to have undergone, unless God also gives them the Holy Spirit as proof.

There are all sorts of reasons people cry out to God in a moment of crisis and of prayer at an altar, none of which might indicate that they truly want Jesus to be the Lord and Owner of their life for as long as they live. They might just want a temporary catharsis, or a "get me out of a jam" type Savior, a Mr. Fixit Mechanic to make things better at home, or etc.-- basically Jesus as Fire Insurance, and not actually care too much about counting the cost for the long haul, taking up their cross daily, to wholly dedicate themselves to serving God and loving Him with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength.

But the person who receives the Holy Spirit, even if they bail later on, has at least the Scriptural, Books of Acts evidence that they were granted repentance by God.

[Esaias]

I would like to add that Paul wrote we are all baptized by one Spirit into the Body (of Christ), so we see that receiving the Holy Spirit is the only means whereby a person may correctly state that they are a member of the Body of Christ, outside of which there is no salvation.

Paul also wrote that we have been baptized into His death, to rise and walk in newness of Life. Peter also said baptism saves us, and he connected to water and Noah's case, indicating he was referring to water baptism.

Baptism is for the remission of sins, we wash away our sins in baptism, calling on the name of the Lord.

There seem to be statements concerning baptism's role in salvation, and others concerning the gift of the Holy Ghost, that place both experiences on what appears to be an equal footing.

We can definitely be baptized. But none of us can give ourselves the Spirit, nor can we literally give the Spirit to someone else. God has to do that.

So we believe, repent, and are baptized. It is up to God to do the rest, right? The believer must have faith, but that faith has to be a work of the Spirit by His Word, so still it is ultimately a work of God.

Given the Bible's statements overall, I cannot with a clear conscience tell a brother who has believed, repented, and been baptized, and is seeking the Holy Ghost, but for whatever reason has not yet received, that such a one has no connection to Christ, that he does not belong to Christ at all, that he is still an alien sinner separated from God, that he has no right to claim to be a Christian.

I would not say he has arrived, got it in the bag, ticket to heaven punched and ready to go. But I also could not say he is completely outside the household of faith altogether, either.

Galatians 4:6 says "because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into your hearts crying 'Abba, Father.'" This is a clear unmistakable statement that people receive the Spirit BECAUSE they are (already) sons. Romans 8:14 says as many as are led by the Spirit, THEY are the sons of God.

Thus, those being led by the Spirit are counted by Him as sons (children), and because of that, He gives them His Spirit. Jesus your Father will give the Spirit to those who ask. He is already their Father, which means they are already His children, and He will (BECAUSE of that paternal relationship, BECAUSE they are sons - just like Paul said) give them His Holy Spirit.

This doesn't change the fact that it is with the Spirit that we are sealed unto the day of redemption, or that new birth is of both water and Spirit, nor does it do away with any other Scripture stressing the importance of the Spirit and the work of regeneration. But I honestly can't see how Paul's statement in Romans 8:9 is not given further elaboration, additional information, etc by other passages on the subject. Romans 8 is contrasting the believer with the unbeliever, Christian vs Jew, to be more to the point. So it seems to be stretching the context a wee bit to give it a blanket application to include those following the leading of the Spirit in responding to the Word but who have not yet received the fullness of the gift.

Besides, Jesus taught we must believe we have the things we ask for in order to receive them. This seems to indicate a person must at some point believe they DO IN FACT have the Spirit - on the Promise of God - in order for that Promise to manifest in the experience of the believer. Does it not? So, would that not also have bearing on this issue?

[Esaias]

That guy, would be my dad.
Never met w the church. Around 4 years ago, my elder pastor came to my parents house(my mom had explained things off and on to my dad for 40 years, he never “hooked up” w it)and explained the message to my dad. He “hit his knees” and asked for forgiveness as a sinner(following the pastors lead) and that evening was baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.
My dad was at that time noticeably slipping w Alzheimer’s, but he could still personally understand that he wasn’t right w God, so he was trying to get right w God.
Since then, he is much worse(nothing shy of a daily nightmare for my mom and sometimes my siblings and I, trying to handle him), almost in nursing home now.

But anyway, never spoke in tongues as evidence of being Spirit filled. So I suppose he falls in the category of not going to make it, because he was never spirit filled born again.
I guess most would probably back “the pressure” off a little to help a guy like me to feel better and say, “well, your dads in God’s hands, we’re not the judge”....


I realize of course, there are tons of others (in our “3 step faith”)w this same dilemma. I am reminded of the verse, “How much more shall He give the Spirit, or heavenly gifts, (whatever that verse exactly reads) to those that ask... And if we do the first 2 steps, He’s the baptized of the 3rd step...but in my dads case, well....back to Gods the judge not us, He’s got His reasons, and my dad never spoke in tongues, so...it’s looking like the lake of fire, no?


It’s in God’s hands. That’s where I’ll leave it.
Doesn’t matter anyway, the JW’s have the 144k tickets!

I will pray for your family and your dad. That's honestly all I know to do or say at this point.

Sometimes I suspect we make things more complicated than they need to be.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I will pray for your family and your dad. That's honestly all I know to do or say at this point.

Sometimes I suspect we make things more complicated than they need to be.

:highfive

[JamesGlen]

I will pray for your family and your dad. That's honestly all I know to do or say at this point.

Sometimes I suspect we make things more complicated than they need to be.


Last night we made the decision to put my dad on hospice. He’s losing ground pretty fast. Nurse says probably less than two days before he passes. It sure has been a difficult road the last few weeks.
Thank you for prayers.