Glorified Flesh?

[Nicodemus1968]

Would like to know what others believe as far as Jesus’ body? Is it the same flesh yet glorified in the heavens? Did he go back to the spirit form he was before robing himself in flesh?

[Amanah]

1 Corinthians 15:35-45 ESV

The Resurrection Body

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;[a] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

[mfblume]

Jesus resurrected in an immortal physical body that Paul called spiritual., Spiritual means supernatural. His resurrected body was quite supernatural. It was not alive by nature's life, or natural life. It was alive by Spirit.

Romans 6:9 says that his resurrection made it so that death has no more dominion over him. That can only refer to his body, since death His affected his body beforehand, but resurrection of the body renders death ineffective.

He never was said to lose that body in His ascension.

Paul said there is a spiritual body and there is a natural body. Jesus' body from the grave is spiritual. Spiritual does not mean non-physical, because the water and manna in 1 Cor 10 were called spiritual meat and drink, but very physical. Same book 5 chapters before 15.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Why have a body raised that death has no more power over, and then abandon it? Why even rise from the dead with a body that death no longer can kill, only to abandon it?

He has a body and we shall see it when he comes again!

[TJJJ]

Jesus resurrected in an immortal physical body that Paul called spiritual., Spiritual means supernatural. His resurrected body was quite supernatural. It was not alive by nature's life, or natural life. It was alive by Spirit.

Romans 6:9 says that his resurrection made it so that death has no more dominion over him. That can only refer to his body, since death His affected his body beforehand, but resurrection of the body renders death ineffective.

He never was said to lose that body in His ascension.

Paul said there is a spiritual body and there is a natural body. Jesus' body from the grave is spiritual. Spiritual does not mean non-physical, because the water and manna in 1 Cor 10 were called spiritual meat and drink, but very physical. Same book 5 chapters before 15.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Why have a body raised that death has no more power over, and then abandon it? Why even rise from the dead with a body that death no longer can kill, only to abandon it?

He has a body and we shall see it when he comes again!

Not.

[TJJJ]

Would like to know what others believe as far as Jesus’ body? Is it the same flesh yet glorified in the heavens? Did he go back to the spirit form he was before robing himself in flesh?

Great question Nic.

Yes in the Spiritual dimension Jesus is God Almight, He is the Father which is just the Eternal Spirit.

As Father he has no body because God is a Spirit and has no form. Jesus as God has no need for a body as He fills the universe. He is the Father.

That physical body ceased to exist as it fulfilled it's purpose the redeemer.

Jesus the Christ standing on the right hand of Jesus the Father (Who has no body) then coming back on the day of Pentecost as Jesus the Holy Ghost, but going to come back again as Jesus the Son to hand the kingdom back to Jesus the Father?

[diakonos]

Scripture, please.

[mfblume]

Not.

Forgive me if this rather terse response does not convince me I am wrong. I gave biblical reasoning.

[TJJJ]

Scripture, please.



Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

[TJJJ]

Is that the one you were wanting D?

[TJJJ]

Forgive me if this rather terse response does not convince me I am wrong. I gave biblical reasoning.

Ok, that tickles my funny bone. Not going to get more into it, prayer service has started, but NOT.

[TJJJ]

Can you believe that Benincasa asked me if I was Nicodemus?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaaha

[Evang.Benincasa]

Can you believe that Benincasa asked me if I was Nicodemus?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaaha

Are you Nostradamus1968? :foottap

[mfblume]

Great question Nic.

Yes in the Spiritual dimension Jesus is God Almight, He is the Father which is just the Eternal Spirit.

As Father he has no body because God is a Spirit and has no form. Jesus as God has no need for a body as He fills the universe. He is the Father.

That physical body ceased to exist as it fulfilled it's purpose the redeemer.

Jesus the Christ standing on the right hand of Jesus the Father (Who has no body) then coming back on the day of Pentecost as Jesus the Holy Ghost, but going to come back again as Jesus the Son to hand the kingdom back to Jesus the Father?

Why did He resurrect at all, then? In fact, why did he show them his hands and feet and then proceed to eat honeycomb to prove he physically resurrected? Why waste the time and effort?

Was it just to show he could do it, with no more purpose than that?

The MAN still exists as MAN, while deity at the same time.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

THE MAN is not the Father aspect of God. It is HUMAN MANIFESTATION.

There IS, not WAS, one mediator between God and MEN, THE MAN Christ Jesus.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The MAN is not God. God is not a man. God manifested in flesh, the man Christ Jesus.

Adam was a MAN who was given dominion and Jesus is the LAST ADAM as MAN is ruling now. God always ruled, and there is not a point to imagine that Jesus would do all this conquest of death and then abandon his humanity and no longer be LAST ADAM and rule as God always ruled. But to RULE AS MAN is a true return of humanity to the place from which Adam fell.

GOD is contrasted from MAN in 1 Tim2:5. The MAN was told to SIT DOWN at the right hand. The FATHER is the LORD in Psalm 110:1, and David's Lord was THE SON, NOT THE FATHER. The FATHER was not told by the FATHER to sit down and rule, while the SECOND FATHER would bring down the FIRST FATHER'S enemies.

Nobody tells Deity to sit down, as we read the LORD told David's Lord to SIT DOWN and rule.

Jesus quoted Psalm 110:1 where the LORD told David's Lord to sit down. And Jesus' words about this prove the MAN is who sat down, NOT GOD.


Mar 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mar 12:37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Jesus agreed the Messiah in Psalm110:1 is SON OF DAVID. And the mystery is that he was David's Lord at the same time. The SON OF GOD is David's Son, not the Father. Jesus is both Son and Father. But the Sonship is not the Fatherhood.

And if you claim that the same Jesus who is SON is FATHER, which is true, and therefore whatever the Son did is what the Father did, WHICH IS NOT TRUE, then you have a problem. The FATHER did not die as the Son did. And Mary was not the mother of GOD like the Catholics claim.

So, your entire reasoning is unbiblical and faulty because we read the MAN sat down, SON OF DAVID, which involves HUMANITY. David fathered humanity, not deity, and The Father is not the son of David, when the son of David sat down to rule.

The redeemer's purpose is not over. There is intercession as high priest, Priesthood never started until the Ascension into heaven and God is not priest. The MAN is the mediator or priest. Sonship and priesthood end when all enemies are put beneath the feet of the Son.

Paul explained Psalm 110:1 and said the FATHER puts the enemies beneath the SON, showing us that the SON, not the Father, was told to sit and rule.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Paul said that the LORD who told David's Lord to sit down was the FATHER. And we know that Jesus is ruling according to verse 25. HE in verse 25 is the SON. Not the Father. The son rules until the Father puts all enemies beneath his feet. The Son is then made subject to the Father after all enemies are under his feet, according to verse 28. And then and bot before is GOD ALL IN ALL. You are trying to reverse the scripture and say that GOD IS ALL IN ALL now, with no Sonship purpose since the Ascension, when the reality is that does not happen until our future.

So, if the SON is ruling now until all enemies are under his feet, and the FATHER is the one who told the Son to sit and is the one putting the enemies beneath the Son's feet, then you cannot twist that and say the Father told the Father to sit and rule until the the Father puts all enemies beneath the Father's feet. That is two Fathers. That is totally inept and in error according to what Paul taught in 1 Cor 15 about Psalm 110.

So, that's a better response than your NOT, and I'd like to see you harmonize what Paul said about FATHER AND SON in 1 Cor 15 as he explained Psalm 110.

And if your answer to my request for you to explain this is NOT, then I am sure the reader can come up with their own determination about what is correct quite easily.

:thumbsup

[mfblume]

Ok, that tickles my funny bone. Not going to get more into it, prayer service has started, but NOT.

I did not think you could respond biblically with scripture to the scriptural reasoning I provided. And I am expecting you unable to also respond biblically to my previous use of scripture with your own use of it, without just saying NOT.

[Esaias]

Not.

My, what big exegesis you have, Grandma!

[diakonos]

Are you Nostradamus1968? :foottap

:lol

[mfblume]

My, what big exegesis you have, Grandma!

All the better to scare/impress you with! ;).... And discourage you from going into more details with me using Bible.

[Nicodemus1968]

All the better to scare/impress you with! ;).... And discourage you from going into more details with me using Bible.

Sorry for not commenting on this subject, but I had a man ask me that question, his particular religion believes in a Glorified body of Jesus in heaven. Of course they believe in all physical and no spiritual as well. They believe when they die they will see a 5’6” Jewish man up there sitting on a throne on the right hand of God. I can’t believe how anyone could believe in glorified flesh, when flesh is symbolic of sin, the carnal nature of man. I mean whoever heard of Glorified Sin, the doctrines some people come up with....

[Esaias]

Sorry for not commenting on this subject, but I had a man ask me that question, his particular religion believes in a Glorified body of Jesus in heaven. Of course they believe in all physical and no spiritual as well. They believe when they die they will see a 5’6” Jewish man up there sitting on a throne on the right hand of God. I can’t believe how anyone could believe in glorified flesh, when flesh is symbolic of sin, the carnal nature of man. I mean whoever heard of Glorified Sin, the doctrines some people come up with....

TJ? Is that you?

[diakonos]

good catch TJ? Is that you?

[mfblume]

Sorry for not commenting on this subject, but I had a man ask me that question, his particular religion believes in a Glorified body of Jesus in heaven. Of course they believe in all physical and no spiritual as well. They believe when they die they will see a 5’6” Jewish man up there sitting on a throne on the right hand of God. I can’t believe how anyone could believe in glorified flesh, when flesh is symbolic of sin, the carnal nature of man. I mean whoever heard of Glorified Sin, the doctrines some people come up with....

Flesh is not synonymous with sin. It only is used that way since the fall, but when Adam was created with flesh before he sinned, his flesh was not bad, it was as much "very good" as everything else that God created.

And especially when we're speaking about the Flesh of Jesus Christ, who had no sin. It's not glorified sin. Wherever you got the idea that flesh is symbolic of sin before Adam sinned or not, including the flesh of Jesus, is a mystery to me.

I don't know what the state of his body is now that he's in heaven on the throne. But I do know that whatever it is, with all the capabilities it has that we might not be aware of, we're physically going to see him in the second coming.

I have a statement to make. For all those who believe Jesus Christ isn't retaining a physical Immortal body, then you've obviously chopped off entire point of God giving Adam Dominion on the earth, and wanting that to continue with the new Adam Jesus Christ, after sin has been dealt with by the cross. You don't really have a connection to the original purpose of God putting Adam in the earth, if you don't believe Jesus Christ, the last Adam, has a physical immortal body.

Adam would have had an immortal sinful body if he hadn't been driven from the garden to not be able to eat the fruit of life and live forever. If that wasn't the case, then can somebody please give me a scenario that would have been the case.

[mfblume]

TJ? Is that you?

T triple J deenomeetay!

[mfblume]

TJ,

You make these statements and then dodge away without allowing yourself to be challenged. Come on, man. Step up.

[Nicodemus1968]

Flesh is not synonymous with sin. It only is used that way since the fall, but when Adam was created with flesh before he sinned, his flesh was not bad, it was as much "very good" as everything else that God created.

And especially when we're speaking about the Flesh of Jesus Christ, who had no sin. It's not glorified sin. Wherever you got the idea that flesh is symbolic of sin before Adam sinned or not, including the flesh of Jesus, is a mystery to me.

I don't know what the state of his body is now that he's in heaven on the throne. But I do know that whatever it is, with all the capabilities it has that we might not be aware of, we're physically going to see him in the second coming.

I have a statement to make. For all those who believe Jesus Christ isn't retaining a physical Immortal body, then you've obviously chopped off entire point of God giving Adam Dominion on the earth, and wanting that to continue with the new Adam Jesus Christ, after sin has been dealt with by the cross. You don't really have a connection to the original purpose of God putting Adam in the earth, if you don't believe Jesus Christ, the last Adam, has a physical immortal body.

Adam would have had an immortal sinful body if he hadn't been driven from the garden to not be able to eat the fruit of life and live forever. If that wasn't the case, then can somebody please give me a scenario that would have been the case.

Mr. Blume,
The Bible says God is a spirit, and another portion of scripture says, spirit has no flesh and bones. The very purpose of GOD coming into the flesh was the purpose of dying on the cross. Paul said the blood of bulls and goats cannot save us, so in order to have a New Testament there must be the death of the testator. Now unless, you believe in 2 Gods, God the Father (Spirit) and then the Son Jesus Christ in human form, I guess that can work. Listen, I’m not saying anything you don’t know, I’m just having a hard time believing, the body of Jesus will be in heaven as he was on earth??? The seed that goes into the ground doesn’t look like it went into the ground. Heavenly bodies yes, that’s scripture, flesh, no sir I don’t read that.
On a side note, if he comes back in the future then that would be his 3rd coming, wouldn’t it? He came in the form of the comforter, (book of Acts 2) he came in 70AD in judgement against Israel, and I guess to America or Israel or wherever will be the third coming.....

[TJJJ]

Oh my, this is turning out to be a funny thread!

Deakon, E, do you really think that is me?

Bwahahahahahahahahaha

[TJJJ]

Why did He resurrect at all, then? In fact, why did he show them his hands and feet and then proceed to eat honeycomb to prove he physically resurrected? Why waste the time and effort?



:thumbsup

Let me answer this paragraph first Mike.

His physical life was to show the spiritual dimension!

Why did He die? to show the need for repentence!

Why was He buried? to show the need for baptism!

Why did He resurrect? To show the need for NEW LIFE!

This really isn't that hard Mike, we don't need a college thesis on this matter!

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

[TJJJ]

Are you Nostradamus1968? :foottap

Nope

[Nicodemus1968]

I mean, why would TJJJ, also come on as Nicodemus? Doesn’t make sense.

[mfblume]

Mr. Blume,
The Bible says God is a spirit, and another portion of scripture says, spirit has no flesh and bones. The very purpose of GOD coming into the flesh was the purpose of dying on the cross.

More than that. Let's get the entire gospel correct here.

He came to redeem us to the pre-fallen state of Adam where Adam was given dominion on earth for a man to rule the earth as God rules heaven.

He died in order to rise again and make atonement in the holiest of holies called Heaven.

First of all, GOD is not high priest. Man acts as high priest. And Jesus had to enter heaven as a man in order to make atonement as high priest So, your off on that point alone.

Hebrews 9:11 KJV.. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hebrews 9:24 KJV.. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Paul said the blood of bulls and goats cannot save us, so in order to have a New Testament there must be the death of the testator. Now unless, you believe in 2 Gods, God the Father (Spirit) and then the Son Jesus Christ in human form, I guess that can work. Listen, I’m not saying anything you don’t know, I’m just having a hard time believing, the body of Jesus will be in heaven as he was on earth???

I never said the body will be in heaven as it was on earth. I am saying that the body is retained, but in what way it is in heaven, I do not know. I only know this, that he retains that body and we shall see it in the second coming. It had capabilities that were supernatural, which is what SPIRITUAL literally means. It ascended into the sky. It appeared at place at his will, out of thin air. What else can it do that we are not told about? But the overall more important point is that A MAN HAS TO RULE OVER EARTH as the LAST ADAM. And His humanity is still in existence in heaven.

I quoted verses that say the MAN sat down on the throne in heaven, NOT DEITY.

There is ONE GOD, and that OE GOD manifested in flesh that became spiritual and immortal, while still very physical. ANd we shall see it again in the second coming. The second COMING WAS NOT the day of Pentecost because after that happened Paul stated that he looked forward to the then-future coming of Jesus when our flesh shall be changed into immortal flesh.

God is still manifest in that human body, but the body is not God. And the body is now immortal flesh that is not natural any more, but spiritual.



The seed that goes into the ground doesn’t look like it went into the ground. Heavenly bodies yes, that’s scripture, flesh, no sir I don’t read that.

The body changed in the resurrection. That does not mean it is no longer physical.

What you fail to read is this all-important verse:

1 Corinthians 15:35-36 KJV.. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? ..(36).. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

The thing that rises is the thing that died. Resurrection does not happen unless what is made alive already died first. What died, Nic? That will tell you what is raised.

And that was the case with Jesus and it is the case at our future resurrection.

On a side note, if he comes back in the future then that would be his 3rd coming, wouldn’t it? He came in the form of the comforter, (book of Acts 2) he came in 70AD in judgement against Israel, and I guess to America or Israel or wherever will be the third coming.....

No, because, like I said, the second coming was not the Day of Pentecost. Paul spoke of a future coming LONG AFTER the day of Pentecost in 1 Cor 15.

And the MAN did not come on the day of Pentecost, anyway. There is a distinction between his humanity and his deity NOW just as much as there was back before the ascension and after Bethlehem's birth. The Holy Ghost is not the SON OF MAN. They're the same person, but not the same manifestation of the one God.

I explained all of this before.

How can the future coming of Jesus in 1 Cor 15 be a third coming OF THE SON OF MAN, if the Holy Ghost IS NOT A MAN?

[TJJJ]

I did not think you could respond biblically with scripture to the scriptural reasoning I provided. And I am expecting you unable to also respond biblically to my previous use of scripture with your own use of it, without just saying NOT.

Mike, this is not a new discussion with us, you adhere to the belief of the physical body of Christ, floating around in heaven by the right hand of God the Father Jesus, (Just like the dispees do...)

I don't. Period.

We have been here before you and I, nothing new.

I have argued this with the Mormons and JW's for long enough to see the same doctrinal position with them also.

The reason that you need a physical body in heaven, waiting for the last toot de toot, is that you are also, like the dispees, expecting your own physical body to go to heaven.

[mfblume]

Oh my, this is turning out to be a funny thread!

Deakon, E, do you really think that is me?

Bwahahahahahahahahaha

You both evidently believe the same false doctrine then. lol

[TJJJ]

My, what big exegesis you have, Grandma!

You are welcome sis.....

You are like Mike.

You need the physical body because to you everything is physical.

Physical sabbath, laws for the physical, ie not eating pork and etc....

You guys are living in the OT.

The moment that you realize that the NT is spiritual then you lose the physical necessity. That is your problem.

Hows that auntie.... or is it niece.

You want to call names little woman?

[TJJJ]

Sorry for not commenting on this subject, but I had a man ask me that question, his particular religion believes in a Glorified body of Jesus in heaven. Of course they believe in all physical and no spiritual as well. They believe when they die they will see a 5’6” Jewish man up there sitting on a throne on the right hand of God. I can’t believe how anyone could believe in glorified flesh, when flesh is symbolic of sin, the carnal nature of man. I mean whoever heard of Glorified Sin, the doctrines some people come up with....

Yep, these guys got their little 5'6" Jesus, floating around in heaven, around Jesus the Father, maybe playing with Jesus the Holy Ghost....

These guys are dualies and can't get away from it.

[TJJJ]

TJ? Is that you?

Nope

[TJJJ]

good catch

Spirit of error more like it C, ....

[TJJJ]

T triple J deenomeetay!

Not!

[TJJJ]

TJ,

You make these statements and then dodge away without allowing yourself to be challenged. Come on, man. Step up.

No, this is like trying to talk to Leday... totally impossible.

Pearls before swine comes to mind.....

[TJJJ]

Mr. Blume,
The Bible says God is a spirit, and another portion of scripture says, spirit has no flesh and bones. The very purpose of GOD coming into the flesh was the purpose of dying on the cross. Paul said the blood of bulls and goats cannot save us, so in order to have a New Testament there must be the death of the testator. Now unless, you believe in 2 Gods, God the Father (Spirit) and then the Son Jesus Christ in human form, I guess that can work. Listen, I’m not saying anything you don’t know, I’m just having a hard time believing, the body of Jesus will be in heaven as he was on earth??? The seed that goes into the ground doesn’t look like it went into the ground. Heavenly bodies yes, that’s scripture, flesh, no sir I don’t read that.
On a side note, if he comes back in the future then that would be his 3rd coming, wouldn’t it? He came in the form of the comforter, (book of Acts 2) he came in 70AD in judgement against Israel, and I guess to America or Israel or wherever will be the third coming.....

Oh my, Truth strikes again!

[mfblume]

Mike, this is not a new discussion with us, you adhere to the belief of the physical body of Christ, floating around in heaven by the right hand of God the Father Jesus, (Just like the dispees do...)

I don't. Period.

We have been here before you and I, nothing new.

I have argued this with the Mormons and JW's for long enough to see the same doctrinal position with them also.

The reason that you need a physical body in heaven, waiting for the last toot de toot, is that you are also, like the dispees, expecting your own physical body to go to heaven.

Lots of bold statements and not backed up with scripture while I backed all mine up.

Once again....

Hebrews 10:12 KJV.. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

It is not more insane to say that the MAN, who is the one God incarnate, is distinct from the Father of the same person of God in Heaven than it is to say it was true when Jesus walked the earth as a MAN.

I do not need a physical body in heaven and I am not going to heaven in a physical body. Where did you get that idea? And this is not the first time we talked about this either.

Bodies are not for heaven. BODIES are for the earth, and after the white throne judgment we are going to be ruling this world IN A BODY like Adam was meant to be, and Jesus will be in a BODY as well.

The SON OF MAN is ruling the earth now, and shall relinquish that dominion to the Father when the resurrection of the body occurs when death is the last enemy put under his feet.

THE MAN RULES NOW.

And if you would deal with scripture rather than promote an unfounded thought that denies and ignores scripture, we could deal with this properly. I have detailed scripture to back up my view because I got it from scripture.

Dispies believe Jesus died on a cross, too? Does that make me wrong because I agree with that part that has nothing to do with Disp? A literal bodily resurrection is not a dispie ditsinction.

[mfblume]

Oh my, Truth strikes again!

None of you two can actually use bible to base your beliefs! You make empty and incorrect claims that the actual scriptures refute.

[mfblume]

No, this is like trying to talk to Leday... totally impossible.

Pearls before swine comes to mind.....

Royal cop-out, Like usual. You cannot actually use bible as I have and discus the issue.

[TJJJ]

You both evidently believe the same false doctrine then. lol

Or we believe the Truth!

That is alright, Paul did say "After the way called Heresy, so worship I the God of my Fathers."

[TJJJ]

Lots of bold statements and not backed up with scripture while I backed all mine up.

Once again....

Hebrews 10:12 KJV.. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

It is not more insane to say that the MAN, who is the one God incarnate, is distinct from the Father of the same person of God in Heaven than it is to say it was true when Jesus walked the earth as a MAN.

I do not need a physical body in heaven and I am not going to heaven in a physical body. Where did you get that idea? And this is not the first time we talked about this either.

Bodies are not for heaven. BODIES are for the earth, and after the white throne judgment we are going to be ruling this world IN A BODY like Adam was meant to be, and Jesus will be in a BODY as well.

The SON OF MAN is ruling the earth now, and shall relinquish that dominion to the Father when the resurrection of the body occurs when death is the last enemy put under his feet.

THE MAN RULES NOW.

And if you would deal with scripture rather than promote an unfounded thought that denies and ignores scripture, we could deal with this properly. I have detailed scripture to back up my view because I got it from scripture.

Dispies believe Jesus died on a cross, too? Does that make me wrong because I agree with that part that has nothing to do with Disp? A literal bodily resurrection is not a dispie ditsinction.

So Mike, where is the right hand of Power? Do you think that God, Father, has a physical right hand? Where do you live?

the right hand of power is the place and dominion of the body of Christ, operating in power and dominion of the Spirit!

[TJJJ]

None of you two can actually use bible to base your beliefs! You make empty and incorrect claims that the actual scriptures refute.

Uh huh.

[TJJJ]

Royal cop-out, Like usual. You cannot actually use bible as I have and discus the issue.

Not at all Mike, the real problem is what perspective are you using versus my using.

We look at the same verse and see two different things.

You see physical and I see spiritual.

You talk about the body of Christ Jesus and see a little body in heaven somewhere, sitting on the right hand of God the Father Jesus.

I talk about the Body of Christ and see the Church. The Body of Christ!

Sitting on the Right hand of Power.

As long as you hold on to the physical dimension you will never see the spiritual.

[TJJJ]

Mike...... where are you?


Man up man!!!!


For once in your life answer a spiritual question!

[mfblume]

Yep, these guys got their little 5'6" Jesus, floating around in heaven, around Jesus the Father, maybe playing with Jesus the Holy Ghost....

These guys are dualies and can't get away from it.

That's as ignorant a statement, as one can make. It's as if a distinction of any time between Father and Son is to be mocked at, as when Jesus was born and lived until He ascended into glory. Suddenly, without any scripture to prove it, the distinction is lost.

You obviously don't know what RIGHT HAND means as well.

Lesson:

RIGHT HAND is a metaphor for POWER.

It does not mean RIGHT SIDE. You cannot get on the right side of the Father because he is omnipresent. You never actually heard of this metaphor of the RIGHT HAND have you>


Read and learn:

Exo_15:6.. Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

Exo_15:12.. Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.


Deu_33:2.. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.


Job_30:12.. Upon my right hand rise the youth; they push away my feet, and they raise up against me the ways of their destruction.

Job_40:14.. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Psa_16:8.. I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

Psa_16:11.. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Psa_17:7.. Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them.

Psa_18:35.. Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.

Psa_20:6.. Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

Psa_21:8.. Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.

Psa_26:10.. In whose hands is mischief, and their right hand is full of bribes.

Psa_44:3.. For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Psa_45:4.. And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

Psa_45:9.. Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Psa_48:10.. According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.

Psa_60:5.. That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me.

Psa_63:8.. My soul followeth hard after thee: thy right hand upholdeth me.

Psa_73:23.. Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.


Psa_77:10.. And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High.

Psa_78:54.. And he brought them to the border of his sanctuary, even to this mountain, which his right hand had purchased.


so many more... IT Means HONOUR and POWER.

[TJJJ]

That's as ignorant a statement, as one can make. It's as if a distinction of any time between Father and Son is to be mocked at, as when Jesus was born and lived until He ascended into glory. Suddenly, without any scripture to prove it, the distinction is lost.

You obviously don't know what RIGHT HAND means as well.

Lesson:

RIGHT HAND is a metaphor for POWER.

It does not mean RIGHT SIDE. You cannot get on the right side of the Father because he is omnipresent. You never actually heard of this metaphor of the RIGHT HAND have you>


Read and learn:

Exo_15:6.. Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

Exo_15:12.. Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.


Deu_33:2.. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.


Job_30:12.. Upon my right hand rise the youth; they push away my feet, and they raise up against me the ways of their destruction.

Job_40:14.. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Psa_16:8.. I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

Psa_16:11.. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Psa_17:7.. Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them.

Psa_18:35.. Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.

Psa_20:6.. Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

Psa_21:8.. Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.

Psa_26:10.. In whose hands is mischief, and their right hand is full of bribes.

Psa_44:3.. For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Psa_45:4.. And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

Psa_45:9.. Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Psa_48:10.. According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.

Psa_60:5.. That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me.

Psa_63:8.. My soul followeth hard after thee: thy right hand upholdeth me.

Psa_73:23.. Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.


Psa_77:10.. And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High.

Psa_78:54.. And he brought them to the border of his sanctuary, even to this mountain, which his right hand had purchased.


so many more... IT Means HONOUR and POWER.

Mike, you are the one who claims that the body of Christ is on the right hand of the Father!!! Not me!!!!

I do believe everything that you have written here! More than you do.

What is the Body friend?

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

What do these Scriptures mean to you Mike?

For once, answer them!

[TJJJ]

Now, I am going to go fix a door...

I will try to get back this evening....

Nicodemus. this is up to you now!

[mfblume]

Not at all Mike, the real problem is what perspective are you using versus my using.

We look at the same verse and see two different things.

You see physical and I see spiritual.

No, you confuse physical with natural. It is not physical versus spiritual, it is natural versus spiritual. I explained this before many times.

NATURAL means mad alive by nature's life. Spiritual means ae alive by Spirit life, not nature. Spiritual is like supernatural.

Fr for the umpteenth time, tell me if these SPIRITUAL things were not physical like you require.

1 Corinthians 10:3-4 KJV.. And did all eat the same spiritual meat; ..(4).. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Spiritual meat, drink and rock. ALL PHYSICAL.

That is in the same book only 5 chapter earlier.

And what about this:

1 Corinthians 2:14-15 KJV.. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ..(15).. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Is the spiritual man not physical, or does SPIRITUAL mean what is empowering the man?

It's all in the same book? In your view you would have to say that spiritual people are not physical. They left their bodies! lol

1 Corinthians 3:1 KJV.. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.


That would mean to you that Paul could not talk to them like non-physical people.

You do not understand the proper contrast of NATURAL AND SPIRITUAL.


You talk about the body of Christ Jesus and see a little body in heaven somewhere, sitting on the right hand of God the Father Jesus.

You obviously need to read my list of verses that show RIGHT HAND is not PHYSCAL POSITION.

I talk about the Body of Christ and see the Church. The Body of Christ!

I answered all these irrelevant points with you years ago

And that is not the context of the BODY OF CHRIST in 1 Cor 15. The body of Jesus that the disciples saw was the one of arms and legs that left the tomb. The body of the church is something altogether different. We are still the body of Christ as the church while Jesus has a human body that is very supernatural/spiritual. And I told you this before as well. The reason the wife is called the flesh and bones of Adam while he is the head, is because she was taken from his body, just as the church was taken from the body of Christ on the cross. You completely confuse metaphors because you do not understand that they are metaphors, and why there are so.

The wife is the husband's body but he still has a personal physical a body of arms and legs. You think illogically.



Sitting on the Right hand of Power.

As long as you hold on to the physical dimension you will never see the spiritual.
You do not know that it is not spiritual versus physical but it is natural, and neither do you know what natural actually means.

And as usual, no scripture yet I see.

[mfblume]

Now, I am going to go fix a door...

I will try to get back this evening....

Nicodemus. this is up to you now!

No bible yet. Typical.

[mfblume]

Mike, you are the one who claims that the body of Christ is on the right hand of the Father!!! Not me!!!!
I never said the BODY is on the right hand. I said the MAN is on the right hand. And I also said, if you cared to read, that I do not know how the body exists in heaven, but I do know that it has capabilities of being altered as it was able to ascend and appear at will out of thin air. How did the body move from one place to the next and appear of out thin air at the next?



I do believe everything that you have written here! More than you do.

What is the Body friend?

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

I dealt with that confusion of metaphors in my previous post.



Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

What do these Scriptures mean to you Mike?

For once, answer them!

I answer all you say. And you FINALLY quote a verse!!!!! (Hell just froze over!) ;)

"For once"?

the BODY here is a METAPHOR using the husband and bride scenario as Eve was bone of Adam's bones. But that did not mean Adam did not have a personal body. So, run away, as usual.

[mfblume]

So Mike, where is the right hand of Power? Do you think that God, Father, has a physical right hand? Where do you live?

the right hand of power is the place and dominion of the body of Christ, operating in power and dominion of the Spirit!

A physical right hand of power? Are you serious?

I said it is nothing physical about it. Right Hand means POWER, not a physical right hand that is powerful. It's a place of honour, not the right physical side of someone else.

Do you get that yet?

[Nicodemus1968]

Wow, I leave for 30 minutes and the thread blew up. I have to read what has been written.

[Nicodemus1968]

Mr. Blume,
“Too much learning hath made thee mad.”

[mfblume]

Wow, I leave for 30 minutes and the thread blew up. I have to read what has been written.

Someone is finally writing, which is why it appears to have blown up.

But here is a chapter from my latest book about the resurrection which corrects the error you good brethren are involved with.

----

(35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Here we come to the direct question concerning the nature of the body that is actually resurrected. And Paul responded with a statement that makes it quite clear that it can be none other than an actual physical resurrection.


(36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

He said that the thing that is resurrected must have first died. Being quickened is being given life, and that is being resurrected. Here we find the actual definition of the term “resurrect.” To resurrect is to re-surge with life. And something that resurges must have previously surged with life at one point, then ceased to surge with it, or in other words, died.

Those who propose a non-physical resurrection do not have anything that died and rises. When they explain to you what they believe it is that rises, you will find that it is not what died! They believe that something rises up and out from within the physical body, but the physical body itself remains behind. They even use a portion of this chapter where the resurrection is compared to a seed being planted with the plant coming forth from that seed. That is used to explain that the body that dies is like the shell of the seed. The shell is not what rises, they say, but what’s inside the shell rises. That’s the very next verse.

(37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: (38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Their failure is in not realizing that the shell of the seed is indeed part of what comes forth from the ground. However, the point that Paul made requires all of what verses 36 through 38 teaches – not just part of it. The element that dies is the very same element that rises again, but it changes its nature when it rises. The seed is planted and is altered to rise in the form of what God designed it to rise with.

You cannot say that something rises up from within the physical body, leaving the physical body behind, when verse 36 clearly states that the element that dies is the one and the same element that rises from the dead. The physical body surged with life, then died and resurged (or resurrected), with life again. But, when it resurged, it was altered.

Jesus’ body died and that same body was raised again. That qualifies as genuine resurrection based on verse 36. However, the nature of that body changed in the rising. It was mortal but became immortal, never to die again, as Romans 6:9 stated.

So, in a physical resurrection of our bodies, we have both the concept of something dying, and then coming back to life again to satisfy the criteria of verse 36. And we have that physical body changing and being altered from a mortal body to an immortal one to satisfy the criteria of verses 37 and 38.
A non-physical resurrection denies verse 36 and does not qualify according to its criteria of what Paul taught about the body that resurrects.

Paul then continued to explain the variations of flesh as well as heavenly bodies, in order to show that a change in body occurs at resurrection.

(39) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. (40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. (42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Paul here introduced the idea that the mortal body is a natural one with which we die and are buried. The resurrected body is the mortal body raised changed in that raising to become immortal. As much as the dead body is weak in contrast to the raised body that is strong, the difference between the body that died and the body that is raised is the difference between natural and spiritual. But it’s the same body that is altered to become spiritual.

The term natural in Greek is psuchikos, which literally means soulish. The word soul in Greek is psuche .

Spiritual in Greek is pneumatikos, and is derived from the root word pneuma which is translated as spirit.

So, it is like saying that the soulish body is changed into a spiritual body.

Soul, or psuche, is literally life from nature. Animals are said to be souls as well according to Revelation 16:3 where we read about living souls in the sea. They are creatures of natural life.

This helps us think of the concept of natural as something living by nature’s form of life. And something that is spiritual is animated and made alive by Spirit rather than nature.

Christ’s body was animated by nature, died and then reanimated by Spirit, and remained alive by Spirit. Hence, it was a spiritual body.

People tend to make the mistake of thinking that a natural body is a physical body, and a spiritual body is non-physical. They simply assume that that which is spiritual is not physical, and then compare the terms physical and spiritual when considering things, including Kingdoms. They correctly believe that we experience a sort of spiritual resurrection at salvation as opposed to a physical one. However, it’s not spiritual because it is not physical. It’s spiritual because the cause of the resurrection when we are saved is the power of the Spirit of God. God’s Spirit causes us to rise to walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:13 says that, once we are saved, we can present ourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead. Nothing physical died and rose again when we were saved with this resurrection that Paul wrote about in Romans Chapter 6. However, that is not to say that the resurrection that takes place after we are saved, in our future when Jesus comes back, is a non-physical resurrection simply because it’s a spiritual body with which we’re raised. The reason that the resurrection of salvation is spiritual is not because it is non-physical. It is because the power of the Spirit regenerated our lives. Spiritual is a word that describes the kind of life or power that animates any given thing, not the material that the thing is made of.

By the same token, the resurrection of the body will be a work of the Spirit of God, not nature, seeing as it is not natural to die and then rise again with a mortal body. Seeing as nature cannot see something die and come back to life of its own accord, Christ’s body was not natural when it resurrected.

A thing that is considered spiritual can be understood by contrasting it with that which is natural, not physical. In other words, we can refer to things that are spiritual by calling them supernatural. This will help us to understand the actual contrast much better.

Many things in the Bible were said to be spiritual but were yet quite physical! In fact, in the same book that Paul explained the coming resurrection – 1 Corinthians – Chapter 10 informs us that spiritual things were physical things.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The meat and the drink that Israel enjoyed during the Exodus were called spiritual. Were they a form of non-physical manna and non-physical water that flowed from the non-physical rock that Moses struck? And was the rock a spiritual one because it was non-physical? No, it was most definitely a physical rock, otherwise, Moses would not have been able to strike it!

These things were supernatural – spiritual. Manna was not food provided by nature. It was supernatural food.

The water supernaturally flowed from a rock when Moses struck it, making the rock a very supernatural one as well.

These very physical things were called spiritual, proving to us that something that is spiritual is not necessarily non-physical, though at times it is indeed non-physical. It’s a matter of whether or not something is supernatural or not, not whether or not it’s non-physical.


******************
Salvation is supernatural, and hence a spiritual resurrection. But it’s not to be understood as being spiritual because it’s non-physical. In order to determine if something is spiritual or not, do not question whether or not it’s physical. The question is if it is supernatural or not.

[Nicodemus1968]

The SON OF MAN is ruling the earth now, and shall relinquish that dominion to the Father when the resurrection of the body occurs when death is the last enemy put under his feet.

THE MAN RULES NOW.

Do you believe in 2 Gods? Reading that statement, it looks as if you do.

[mfblume]

Mr. Blume,
“Too much learning hath made thee mad.”

Study to show thyself approved unto God. It doesn't cut it when we do not get our ideas from scripture but create a non-biblical thought and ignore bible to base it upon.


And Festus made that same claim about Paul you make about me. And Paul was right, and Festus was wrong!

THANK YOU!

So, Festus, like Paul I say,


Acts 26:25 KJV.. But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.

[mfblume]

The SON OF MAN is ruling the earth now, and shall relinquish that dominion to the Father when the resurrection of the body occurs when death is the last enemy put under his feet.

THE MAN RULES NOW.

Do you believe in 2 Gods? Reading that statement, it looks as if you do.

How can a MAN ruling mean two gods? THE MAN is not GOD. lol When did MAN become GOD? You sound like the serpent trying to get people to become gods.

Do you believe in two Gods because Jesus was manifest in flesh on earth and He existed as Father at the same time? Same thing!

Yikes, you brethren do not even understand Oneness.

[mfblume]

NIc,

let's go at this systematically and dealing with each point. USING BIBLE.

[mfblume]

Another chapter from my new book.



At this point in Paul’s explanation, he compares Jesus Christ with Adam. After having contrasted the natural from the spiritual, we learn this is the reason

(45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Paul quoted Genesis Chapter 2 where we read that Adam was made a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

As much as there is a natural body and spiritual body, Adam was a living soul. This is significant because the Greek term for “soul,” “psuche,” is the root word for natural, “psuchikos.” Adam was a natural man. Jesus, the last Adam, is a spiritual man.

It is at this point that some have proposed Jesus Christ’s flesh was not of the earth when He was born in Bethlehem. They claim that Mary merely incubated the child, whereas the Bible states that she conceived. Conception involves a woman’s egg being fertilized by seed. Simply based on the term, “conceived,” we understand that Mary contributed to the flesh of Jesus Christ, and did not merely incubate the unborn Jesus.

So, why, then, do we read that Jesus was spiritual when speaking about natural versus spiritual bodies? If Mary contributed to His flesh, then why would it not be natural flesh?
The answer lies in the fact that this chapter is speaking about Jesus Christ’s resurrected body, which was transformed from being natural to spiritual in nature. Since the chapter is about resurrection, it stands to reason that Christ’s spiritual body is the risen body, and is the type of body we shall have when our resurrection takes place.

The fact has been established that there is indeed a natural body. The natural body is what is made alive by natural life, which is the essence of what a soul is – a naturally living creature. There is life that is of nature, the sort of life that God set in motion in the world. Such a life is mortal and susceptible to inevitably die if sin was introduced into the picture – which it was.

When Paul said that the last Adam was made a quickening spirit, we are to understand that he was not just alive, but could give life to others. Jesus spoke of making people alive in the resurrection.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:25-29 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. (28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This shows us that Jesus was a genuine human being as much as Adam was, being categorized beside Adam, but contrasted in being a spiritual man as opposed to natural due to the resurrection.

(46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

It has been proposed that the reference to the last days points to the end of the natural order of Law-keeping under the Old Covenant, with Jesus being the last man. He is the last of anyone who will ever be the federal head of humanity as Adam first was. There will be no more “Adams”. And some feel Job insinuated this fact.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

The latter day is the last day. It is the Last Covenant, the New Covenant. First is the old and then comes the new.

Jesus was said to have made Himself known in the end of the world.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

This also shows us that Jesus is the Holy Spirit in human form, showing us that indeed God is one.

When we read He is a quickening Spirit, there is the sense of pneuma, the term spirit in Greek. This does not mean He abandoned his physical body in the resurrection, for He most certainly did not, as per the basis of the entire chapter. His body is not alive due to natural reasons. He is not susceptible to death any more. And He was raised immortal and spiritual in order to raise us up with spiritual, immortal bodies in our resurrection. Paul simply explained that there is a natural and spiritual body, and Christ resurrected with a spiritual body – a body animated by spirit. We shall be raised incorruptible as well.
This spiritual body was not the first, though superior in comparison with what was first in bodies. Jesus, Himself, existed in a natural body before His death. He gained a spiritual body in His resurrection. This, too, shall be our experience!

Adam was given dominion over the earth and all its creatures. Jesus is much more than that! He is Lord of angels, the Church and the world as well. This is not speaking of Christ’s flesh being heavenly. Again, it is speaking of His resurrection body that was rendered immortal and spiritual. If Christ’s flesh was not like ours in His death and burial, then we could never have identified with His death and burial.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

When Adam came up from the ground in his creation, all his children would be housed by earthen bodies as he was. Jesus Christ was raised from the ground, although from a tomb. And that spiritual body is the same sort of body that we shall possess once the resurrection occurs.

(48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also be r the image of the heavenly.

The point is that we shall have the same sort of Body Jesus had when He resurrected. This fact, too, shows the error of those who reject the concept of a physical resurrection for church members. How can Paul state that we shall bear the image of the heavenly, in reference to the body with which Jesus resurrected, if there is no physical resurrection of the saints?

Your doctrine needs to be routed out from apostolic circles!

[Nicodemus1968]

The Bible says there is a difference between the physical and the spiritual. There’s also a difference between the first man Adam and the second man Adam Jesus Christ. We were born in the physical but we’re raised spiritual. (Referencing 1 Corinthians 15) now is the raising just when we die? Or is it when we receive the Holy Ghost. The moment you receive the spirit of God you are raised to new life, Paul said behold all things become new, we reign as king and priest right now, not when we die. The dominion Adam has in the garden we have with the Holy Ghost, I just don’t understand why this spiritual gift GOD gave us, is turning into all this physical Old Testament stuff when we die.

[Nicodemus1968]

Your going to have to wait a little bit, I’m getting service done on my vehicle. I’ll be back in a little bit.

[mfblume]

The Bible says there is a difference between the physical and the spiritual.

That is not the contrast being made, brother. I already stated this but you could not have reached that point in my notes yet. I will hold off for a while for you to catch up.

It is NATURAL versus SPIRITUAL. Not PHYSICAL versus SPIRITUAL

There’s also a difference between the first man Adam and the second man Adam Jesus Christ. We were born in the physical but we’re raised spiritual. (Referencing 1 Corinthians 15) now is the raising just when we die? Or is it when we receive the Holy Ghost. The moment you receive the spirit of God you are raised to new life, Paul said behold all things become new, we reign as king and priest right now, not when we die. The dominion Adam has in the garden we have with the Holy Ghost, I just don’t understand why this spiritual gift GOD gave us, is turning into all this physical Old Testament stuff when we die.

Adam living physically and ruling forever is not old testament. Old Testament is old covenant. I think we forget what OLD TESTAMENT actually means sometimes.

But your overall problem and root of it all is confusing natural for physical.

[diakonos]

Or we believe the Truth!

That is alright, Paul did say "After the way called Heresy, so worship I the God of my Fathers."

Stop it :lol

[diakonos]

Your going to have to wait a little bit, I’m getting service done on my vehicle. I’ll be back in a little bit.

Really, hope you found a good honest mechanic.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Your going to have to wait a little bit, I’m getting service done on my vehicle. I’ll be back in a little bit.

Have you and I ever met before?

[diakonos]

Have you and I ever met before?

Here we go... :lol

[TJJJ]

Another chapter from my new book.



At this point in Paul’s explanation, he compares Jesus Christ with Adam. After having contrasted the natural from the spiritual, we learn this is the reason

(45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Paul quoted Genesis Chapter 2 where we read that Adam was made a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

As much as there is a natural body and spiritual body, Adam was a living soul. This is significant because the Greek term for “soul,” “psuche,” is the root word for natural, “psuchikos.” Adam was a natural man. Jesus, the last Adam, is a spiritual man.

It is at this point that some have proposed Jesus Christ’s flesh was not of the earth when He was born in Bethlehem. They claim that Mary merely incubated the child, whereas the Bible states that she conceived. Conception involves a woman’s egg being fertilized by seed. Simply based on the term, “conceived,” we understand that Mary contributed to the flesh of Jesus Christ, and did not merely incubate the unborn Jesus.

So, why, then, do we read that Jesus was spiritual when speaking about natural versus spiritual bodies? If Mary contributed to His flesh, then why would it not be natural flesh?
The answer lies in the fact that this chapter is speaking about Jesus Christ’s resurrected body, which was transformed from being natural to spiritual in nature. Since the chapter is about resurrection, it stands to reason that Christ’s spiritual body is the risen body, and is the type of body we shall have when our resurrection takes place.

The fact has been established that there is indeed a natural body. The natural body is what is made alive by natural life, which is the essence of what a soul is – a naturally living creature. There is life that is of nature, the sort of life that God set in motion in the world. Such a life is mortal and susceptible to inevitably die if sin was introduced into the picture – which it was.

When Paul said that the last Adam was made a quickening spirit, we are to understand that he was not just alive, but could give life to others. Jesus spoke of making people alive in the resurrection.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:25-29 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. (28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This shows us that Jesus was a genuine human being as much as Adam was, being categorized beside Adam, but contrasted in being a spiritual man as opposed to natural due to the resurrection.

(46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

It has been proposed that the reference to the last days points to the end of the natural order of Law-keeping under the Old Covenant, with Jesus being the last man. He is the last of anyone who will ever be the federal head of humanity as Adam first was. There will be no more “Adams”. And some feel Job insinuated this fact.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

The latter day is the last day. It is the Last Covenant, the New Covenant. First is the old and then comes the new.

Jesus was said to have made Himself known in the end of the world.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

This also shows us that Jesus is the Holy Spirit in human form, showing us that indeed God is one.

When we read He is a quickening Spirit, there is the sense of pneuma, the term spirit in Greek. This does not mean He abandoned his physical body in the resurrection, for He most certainly did not, as per the basis of the entire chapter. His body is not alive due to natural reasons. He is not susceptible to death any more. And He was raised immortal and spiritual in order to raise us up with spiritual, immortal bodies in our resurrection. Paul simply explained that there is a natural and spiritual body, and Christ resurrected with a spiritual body – a body animated by spirit. We shall be raised incorruptible as well.
This spiritual body was not the first, though superior in comparison with what was first in bodies. Jesus, Himself, existed in a natural body before His death. He gained a spiritual body in His resurrection. This, too, shall be our experience!

Adam was given dominion over the earth and all its creatures. Jesus is much more than that! He is Lord of angels, the Church and the world as well. This is not speaking of Christ’s flesh being heavenly. Again, it is speaking of His resurrection body that was rendered immortal and spiritual. If Christ’s flesh was not like ours in His death and burial, then we could never have identified with His death and burial.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

When Adam came up from the ground in his creation, all his children would be housed by earthen bodies as he was. Jesus Christ was raised from the ground, although from a tomb. And that spiritual body is the same sort of body that we shall possess once the resurrection occurs.

(48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also be r the image of the heavenly.

The point is that we shall have the same sort of Body Jesus had when He resurrected. This fact, too, shows the error of those who reject the concept of a physical resurrection for church members. How can Paul state that we shall bear the image of the heavenly, in reference to the body with which Jesus resurrected, if there is no physical resurrection of the saints?

Your doctrine needs to be routed out from apostolic circles!

So now you are into witch hunts?

Mike, Mike, you are jousting at windmills, Don Coyote!

The self called paladin of Pentecost is going to rout this doctrine? C'mon, who you kidding?

The discussion about this predates you and I. My 82 year old dad, retired UPC, was talking to me about it the other day. He remembers the discussions on this 40 years ago. He is the one that told me that they called the guys in the midwest "Dualies". :heeheehee

This is a mainly midwest doctrine that you subscribe to, lots of guys on the west coast don't believe it like you do. Sorry.

[TJJJ]

Have you and I ever met before?

:nod

[mfblume]

So now you are into witch hunts? Not at all. lol



Mike, Mike, you are jousting at windmills, Don Coyote!

The self called paladin of Pentecost is going to rout this doctrine? C'mon, who you kidding?

Enough with the small talk and let's talk BIBLE.



The discussion about this predates you and I. My 82 year old dad, retired UPC, was talking to me about it the other day. He remembers the discussions on this 40 years ago. He is the one that told me that they called the guys in the midwest "Dualies". :heeheehee

Blah blah blah. Talk bible, man. It has nothing to do with Godhead theology. Are you trying to say that the LOCATION of Father and Son distinction means the difference between ONE GOD or TWO GODS? because the distinction between the man and the deity in earth is no different in what Godhead theology presents than it is if the distinction is between humanity and deity in Heaven. In other words, if you see oneness in deity and humanity being distinct while Jesus was in earth, then apply the same understanding to Jesus as a man in Heaven and realize it's the same oneness all the while.



This is a mainly midwest doctrine that you subscribe to, lots of guys on the west coast don't believe it like you do. Sorry.

Who cares how many where they are that agree or disagree with me. I got this from the bible and I am in Canada.

So, are you going to wave at the wind, or actually talk bible?

[mfblume]

Everytime you get involved in any degree of this issue, TJJJ, you do the same thing. You say it's Twonesss (?) and make comments on how we are way off the wall, and never actually give any biblical foundation for anything you believe about it. YOu just come out with some uncscriptural reasoning of how there is no humanity to Jesus left at all, and then mock the same scenario of oneness that YOU agree with concerning the Son in the earth, when I use it to speak of the Son in heaven, as if oneness is ok with human and deity in earth but not okay with human and deity in heaven. Y ou do this consistently. Why do you even bother to step in and comment at all? You never ever really chatted about this in discussion any time I mentioned it and you stepped in and out again. What is really up with that? You compare me with LeDeay, when I always explain my reasoning using detailed explanations of many passages of scripture, not at all like Bro LeDeay and you actually know that.

[mfblume]

Where are all the detractors?

I am writing a book on this issue and want to see how you reason this out that there is no humanity left to the Son of God anymore. Come on, and be book fodder!

[Esaias]

Your going to have to wait a little bit, I’m getting service done on my vehicle. I’ll be back in a little bit.

Really, hope you found a good honest mechanic.

Guess not? :slaphappy

[Nicodemus1968]

Guess not? :slaphappy

I’m sorry, everything took longer than expected. Then I had special services to attend. I’ll comment, yet other things come first, I’m sure you understand Esaias and Mr. Blume.

[mfblume]

I’m sorry, everything took longer than expected. Then I had special services to attend. I’ll comment, yet other things come first, I’m sure you understand Esaias and Mr. Blume.

Thanks for the note, mr. Nicodemus. I want to deal with your view in my book, so I'm really looking forward to some detailed explanation to substantiate your view.

[Esaias]

I’m sorry, everything took longer than expected. Then I had special services to attend. I’ll comment, yet other things come first, I’m sure you understand Esaias and Mr. Blume.

Just kidding. Looking forward to a detailed presentation of Bible doctrine showing that Jesus is no longer human (I assume that's at least part of the topic here).

[TJJJ]

Everytime you get involved in any degree of this issue, TJJJ, you do the same thing. You say it's Twonesss (?) and make comments on how we are way off the wall, and never actually give any biblical foundation for anything you believe about it. YOu just come out with some uncscriptural reasoning of how there is no humanity to Jesus left at all, and then mock the same scenario of oneness that YOU agree with concerning the Son in the earth, when I use it to speak of the Son in heaven, as if oneness is ok with human and deity in earth but not okay with human and deity in heaven. Y ou do this consistently. Why do you even bother to step in and comment at all? You never ever really chatted about this in discussion any time I mentioned it and you stepped in and out again. What is really up with that? You compare me with LeDeay, when I always explain my reasoning using detailed explanations of many passages of scripture, not at all like Bro LeDeay and you actually know that.

What is really up with ME?

Mike, we have been through this before, I have thrown my Scriptures at you and you have thrown yours at me. I realize futility when I see it, you are not going to be convinced otherwise and neither am I.

You see it one way and I see it another. Yes, it is two whether you want to admit it or not. You yourself told me that you have to have two to have oneness. You are the one that told me that I don't believe oneness, because I don't believe in the divine flesh up in heaven with God the father.

So I guess I am not oneness in your sense, I am an ardent One God believer. That is Bible Mike, it still is.

Yes, I come on here and driveby post, and will continue to do so.

Engage with you in a long term discussion on this? Probably not. You, like Larry Smith have an agenda, thus your books and writings. The problem is, I am not interested in your false doctrines.

[Esaias]

Yes, I come on here and driveby post, and will continue to do so.



Why bother?

[Esaias]

What's funny is how many people make claims, pontificate that anyone who disagrees with them are wrong and in false doctrine, yet will not produce book chapter and verse for their position. It's really a popish attitude, as if their mere assertions are to be taken as Gospel truth. This is also one of the reasons this forum and others have become practically dead - people just want to post drive by sound bites. Exactly what Farcebook and Twaddler and Instagrunt are designed for: the general dumbing down of communication and thought.

We have available the greatest methods of communication ever available to mankind, and it gets wasted on memes and twaddleposts.

Where is SMOD?

[mfblume]

What is really up with ME?. Yes you. I've been trying to provide scripture here and show you how your Doctrine is wrong, and you won't respond with anything but Jabber.

Mike, we have been through this before, I have thrown my Scriptures at you and you have thrown yours at me. I realize futility when I see it, you are not going to be convinced otherwise and neither am I. what's being convinced got to do with any of this? I'm trying to see what you believe and he haven't laid down so I can look at it and deal with it. I can't remember anything you ever said about it other than these little quips and jabs. You always come off with a mocking attitude like we believe in a five foot six Jesus floating around heaven, and you never took it seriously from the start anyway. Always this attitude.

I am wanting to know the details of why you believe what you do, and every time you always had this attitude that I am wasting your time, so don't say we've done what I am asking before You never dialogued with me for just the sake of explanaton and answering responses. It's always bee the same short discussion.

You see it one way and I see it another. Yes, it is two whether you want to admit it or not.

Sorry if I do not take your word for it I have proposed that the exact same way you believe in oneness with a distinction of humanity and deity while Jesus was on earth is the same with Jesus in heaven since the ascension.

You yourself told me that you have to have two to have oneness. You are the one that told me that I don't believe oneness, because I don't believe in the divine flesh up in heaven with God the father.

This is your problem. First of all, I do not believe in TWO GODS and have never told you I did. Two manifestations, yes. Just like Jesus in the earth. Secondly, you claim I believe in divine flesh which is absolutely false. So, if you would just stop thinking you know my position and actually read what I say and provide explanation, you might engage in a half decent discussion.

So I guess I am not oneness in your sense, I am an ardent One God believer. That is Bible Mike, it still is.


Your views are not bible just because you say they are, and that's all you have been doing is saying they are.

Yes, I come on here and driveby post, and will continue to do so.

Engage with you in a long term discussion on this? Probably not. You, like Larry Smith have an agenda, thus your books and writings. The problem is, I am not interested in your false doctrines.

Agenda? What is my agenda aside from preaching truth and sharing it?

You are not interested in truth as far as I can tell, and that is not saying if you disagree with me you do not have truth. I am saying your refusal to discuss has ALWAYS occurred, and that is why it's futile.

Maybe Nicodemus will actually discuss here. You obviously can't. If you DID discuss in detail, I cannot recall.

I know you never take anyone who disagrees with you seriously, and pawn it off as being unable to change my mind, because you do not even know that I deny divine flesh teaching, and I cannot recall you ever seriously discussing this without that attitude you are showing here. The time you take wasting time by saying you will not discuss could have been used to provide scripture showing your view for not just me, but all the readers. I wasted years with James LeDreay, himself, but realizing that others are reading and can be helped.

If You'd stop assuming things and making up this nonsense about agendas and thinking that you've already discussed this and that I'm simply not going to listen to you, then we can let God be God to know the intents of hearts, and talk. I won't hold my breath.

Wow. Another LeDeay who thinks he's explained things and done things properly and covered it, and never did anything at all.

You have never discussed this in detail.

[mfblume]

Why bother?

Agreed. Waste of time,

hopefully Nicodemus will actually discuss this with us.

[Nicodemus1968]

Just kidding. Looking forward to a detailed presentation of Bible doctrine showing that Jesus is no longer human (I assume that's at least part of the topic here).

Not sure if your joking on the fact that you believe Jesus is in human form?

[Nicodemus1968]

Mike,
You need to break your thoughts in smaller spaces, not thesis form? The Bible can be discussed, iron sharpeners iron, yet the you take a whole page form your book or whatever gets overwhelming to have a discussion. In a sense your having a conversation by yourself.

[Nicodemus1968]

First things first, we all can agree that we have biblical views that we will stand for, I may not believe like any of you on some things and the other way around. Im going to come from a spiritual mindset. I don't believe this physical world and the elements of it is what God desires, I believe the world we belong to once we have been adopted is the spiritual kingdom of Jesus Christ. Just keep that in mind, and ill keep in mind how some of you believe.

[Nicodemus1968]

Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

I trust we all believe in One God, not two or three! I believe the Lord isn't talking to himself or another god, or speaking in the future to the body of Christ (church). I believe he is talking to his creation, we see in the garden that Eve was not at all shocked by the serpent taking to her. Its common sense that you bear the image of your parents.

Genesis 3:19
"...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

I Corinthains 15:49
"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

Everyone that has been born of a women was born with corruptible nature, that is the natural man. David said in sin did my mother conceive me. We were created on the same day as beasts or as one Good Elder put it, Sixth Day Man in one of his pamphlets. This physical, fleshy man has a natural habit to commit sin, no one told me how to lie or cheat, steal etc. it came natural to me as a carnal, sinner human.

Romans 7:18
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Paul here understands that in him is a war, do I sin and remain committing sin, or do I perform what my spirit desires and the only way we can stop the sin and perform the Good is by the Holy Ghost. The only way you can submit that fleshy, Carnal, Physical Beast Nature of man is to submit to Gods spirit. When you receive the Holy Ghost you go from corruptible to incorruptible, you are now Jesus's Bride.

Matthew 26:41
"Watch and Pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

You have the flesh and you have the spirit this is foundational biblical teaching, you have Heaven and you have Hell, you can commit to the flesh and be doomed or you can submit to the spirit and be blessed. This carnal, flesh, physical man relates to our sin nature, even the Bible states Jesus was tempted in every way we are yet without sin! He dealt with the same temptations we deal with through this carnal flesh, earthy, sensual, devilish.

The only thing this Flesh was used for was for the sacrifice on the cross. GOD came in the flesh revealed his name as Jesus and died upon that cross for the ultimate sacrifice known to man. Once he resurrected, he came again as he was, he still had the scars of his experience, as he ascended he goes into spiritual form, the corruptible flesh of this body will not be in his presence. It will be a spiritual body, the seed that goes into the ground is totally different when it comes up. Thats how well be when we breath our last breath! People ask "were is the body of Christ", its the church friend, Paul said were in one body, many members.

[Esaias]

Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

I trust we all believe in One God, not two or three! I believe the Lord isn't talking to himself or another god, or speaking in the future to the body of Christ (church). I believe he is talking to his creation, we see in the garden that Eve was not at all shocked by the serpent taking to her. Its common sense that you bear the image of your parents.

Genesis 3:19
"...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

I Corinthains 15:49
"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

Everyone that has been born of a women was born with corruptible nature, that is the natural man. David said in sin did my mother conceive me. We were created on the same day as beasts or as one Good Elder put it, Sixth Day Man in one of his pamphlets. This physical, fleshy man has a natural habit to commit sin, no one told me how to lie or cheat, steal etc. it came natural to me as a carnal, sinner human.

Romans 7:18
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Paul here understands that in him is a war, do I sin and remain committing sin, or do I perform what my spirit desires and the only way we can stop the sin and perform the Good is by the Holy Ghost. The only way you can submit that fleshy, Carnal, Physical Beast Nature of man is to submit to Gods spirit. When you receive the Holy Ghost you go from corruptible to incorruptible, you are now Jesus's Bride.

Matthew 26:41
"Watch and Pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

You have the flesh and you have the spirit this is foundational biblical teaching, you have Heaven and you have Hell, you can commit to the flesh and be doomed or you can submit to the spirit and be blessed. This carnal, flesh, physical man relates to our sin nature, even the Bible states Jesus was tempted in every way we are yet without sin! He dealt with the same temptations we deal with through this carnal flesh, earthy, sensual, devilish.

The only thing this Flesh was used for was for the sacrifice on the cross. GOD came in the flesh revealed his name as Jesus and died upon that cross for the ultimate sacrifice known to man. Once he resurrected, he came again as he was, he still had the scars of his experience, as he ascended he goes into spiritual form, the corruptible flesh of this body will not be in his presence. It will be a spiritual body, the seed that goes into the ground is totally different when it comes up. Thats how well be when we breath our last breath! People ask "were is the body of Christ", its the church friend, Paul said were in one body, many members.

The subject under discussion is whether or not Jesus retains His human nature, which you mentioned in the last paragraph when you said "Once he resurrected, he came again as he was, he still had the scars of his experience, as he ascended he goes into spiritual form, the corruptible flesh of this body will not be in his presence." Unfortunately, you did not provide any Scripture which states or suggests what you have declared. The various passages which you quoted do not really address the issue under discussion (we aren't discussing "sin nature" or the contrast between sinfulness and holiness, etc).

However, I would like to bring forward some Scriptures that seem to me to render your theory completely and totally impossible. Keep in mind that it is not necessary for me or anyone else to prove that Jesus' body did not dissolve or dissipate or otherwise is no longer existing. Rather, since you make the claim that Jesus' body dissipated or dissolved or otherwise no longer exists, and that Jesus is no longer human, it is incumbent upon you to provide the proof of your claim. Be that as it may, I will provide the Scriptures that teach Jesus is still a man (as well as being God), and that His body is still in existence (albeit glorified and immortal).

First of all, you said He was raised and still had His body, but then He ascended and His body became "spiritual". But hear the apostle:

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Here, the apostle clearly states that the body is RAISED as a spiritual body. Not "ascends and becomes a spiritual body". You have Jesus getting a spiritual body on His ascension, but the apostle says it happened at his resurrection. Thus, you are not in agreement with the apostle.

Furthermore, you said "Once he resurrected, he came again as he was, he still had the scars of his experience..." According to the apostle He had a spiritual body once He was resurrected, yet you acknowledge that He still had His scars, that He was "as He was". These things which you correctly apply to His resurrected body, are things belonging to the SPIRITUAL BODY that He had in his resurrection. Neither Paul nor any other apostle anywhere mentions any change in Jesus' body that occurred during the ascension which rendered Him no longer human or no longer in possession of a personal, individual body.

Again, point 1, Jesus did NOT acquire a spiritual body during the ascension, as you say, but upon His resurrection, as the apostle says.

Here is point 2:

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The same passage of Scripture which proves you are in error concerning when Jesus obtained His spiritual body, also proves you are in error as to there being two entirely different bodies. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body, yet notice: Paul repeatedly identifies IT, a single thing, which is sown in corruption (dies) and which also rises in incorruption (resurrects). That which is sown is that which is raised, except it undergoes a change from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible, from natural to spiritual. But it is still the SAME THING, the individual's body which died, and then which is resurrected.

When Jesus resurrected from the grave, there was no body in the tomb. Why? Because He had His body, the body that was placed in the grave underwent a change from mortal to immortal, and thus the grave was empty once He left it. One body, existing first as a natural body, then upon resurrection as a spiritual body. When the resurrection occurs, the NATURAL BODY IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. Why? Because the natural body has become the spiritual body. The grave is empty, nothing is there except the graveclothes. The natural body and the spiritual body are the same body under two different circumstances.

Which brings me to point 3:

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We bear the image of the first Adam, we get old and die and return to the earth. We shall (future) bear the image of the heavenly (or spiritual, the resurrected Jesus). When Jesus died, His body was put into a grave. When He resurrected and left the grave, the grave was left empty with no body. This is what shall happen with us. When a Christian dies, their body is put into a grave. When a Christian resurrects, there will be no body left in their grave, it will be empty. Yet you assert Christians resurrect when they die, in spite of the fact their graves continue to be occupied.

The reason we know Jesus resurrected is because 1) people saw Him alive after His burial, and 2) there was no body in His grave. If what you propose is correct, then our resurrection is wholly unlike His, in contradiction to the plain statement of the apostle. Hear is another statement of his which affirms the same reality:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


The firstfruits of a harvest of blueberries is a small bunch of blueberries, not a handful of acorns. That which is the firstfruits is the same as that which it is the firstfruits of. A wheat crop has firstfruits - OF WHEAT - and the crop that comes in is the same stuff that was presented as the firstfruits. Yet if what you are saying is true, then Christ is not really the firstfruits of them which slept (died), because His resurrection and their resurrection (our resurrection) are completely different in nature and effect and result. It would be like waving a sheaf of wheat as the firstfruits of a maize harvest! The resurrection of the saints will be like the resurrection of Jesus and no bodies will remain in their graves, according to the apostle, and contrary to your theory.

Which brings up point 4:

Jesus is currently a human being. This is denied by you, yet it is the plain statement of the apostle:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Many years after the resurrection, many years after the ascension, the apostle declared there was still then currently a mediator between God and men, and further he said this then currently existing mediator is in fact a MAN. The apostle plainly declared Jesus Christ to be a man during a time frame which, according to your theory, He was not in fact a man. According to your theory, Jesus ceased to be a man at His ascension, yet after His ascension Paul not only called Him a man, but emphatically stated He was, AT THE TIME OF HIS WRITING, AFTER THE ASCENSION, a man. If Paul believed as you do, then Paul could not have said what he said. Therefore Paul did not believe as you do. And since Paul is an apostle, all who do not believe as Paul did do not in fact believe the truth but have believed an error. And therefore, Paul correctly asserts Jesus was still, in his own day, many years after the ascension, a man, which you deny.

In conclusion, your theory simply is not biblical or apostolic.

[Esaias]

First things first, we all can agree that we have biblical views that we will stand for, I may not believe like any of you on some things and the other way around. Im going to come from a spiritual mindset. I don't believe this physical world and the elements of it is what God desires, I believe the world we belong to once we have been adopted is the spiritual kingdom of Jesus Christ. Just keep that in mind, and ill keep in mind how some of you believe.

The spiritual mindset is the mindset which is in agreement with the Word of God. Your statement that "this physical world and the elements of it is (not) what God desires" seems to me to be based on a misunderstanding of certain things.

The "elements of the world" are to be "burned up" in judgment, thus the world that is, is to be destroyed by fire. Just as the previous world was destroyed by water. Yet, when the previous world was destroyed by water, it wasn't a total annihilation of physical reality, it was a destruction of the then existing world order, society, humans and their animals.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The earth is destined to be inherited by God's children. Far from the idea that God doesn't care about or desire "this physical world", this "physical world" belongs to God and He has willed it to His children. A new heavens and earth wherein righteousness dwells does not mean an invisible "by and by" that leaves the current earth eternally in bondage to sin and evil and decay. Rather, Jesus came to reverse the curse - ALL of it - and that includes the decay and degradation of the physical earth:

Romans 8:16-23 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

This jubile or release from bondage for the "whole creation" is tied to the "redemption of our body", which in turn is tied to the resurrection of Christ. Christ was raised immortal (His mortal body was changed into immortal), we wait for the same thing to happen to us and in fact the whole creation is waiting for that event, because the creation will be delivered from its bondage.

So I do not see that same duality in Scripture that your theory seems to focus on, as if God cares nothing for the physical creation. Quite the opposite in fact.

[Esaias]

To the readers:

A major error that is often made, is to confuse spiritual with "non physical", or to confuse flesh with "physical/material".

Romans 8:5-9 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


According to Paul, all those who are "in the flesh cannot please God." Does he mean all those who have physical, material bodies cannot please God? No, because he goes on to say that if you have the Spirit of God, then you are not in the flesh. Yet you still have a physical body, a material body. So being in the flesh is not at all about being physical or material. And so neither is being in the spirit about being nonphysical or nonmaterial. Rather, being in the flesh means to be carnally minded, and to be in the Spirit means to be spiritually minded (that is, to have the Spirit of God dwelling in you, God's mind or mentality is in you, directing you, etc).

What does it mean to be carnally minded? Does it mean that those who think Jesus has a resurrected but material body are just "carnally minded" because they are "stuck on physical material thinking?" NO:

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

To be carnally minded doesn't mean to recognise the proper place of physical or material realities. Rather, to be carnally minded means to have a mindset that WILL NOT OBEY GOD. Carnality isn't at all about physicality or materiality, but entirely about OBEDIENCE. It's about morality. A person who is full blown Gnostic and Manichaean, who derides and rejects everything physical and material as being unspiritual and corrupted and downright evil, is still entirely carnal and not at all spiritual, unless he submits to every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Again, carnal vs spiritual isn't about materiality or physicality. It is about morality.

[Nicodemus1968]

The subject under discussion is whether or not Jesus retains His human nature, which you mentioned in the last paragraph when you said "Once he resurrected, he came again as he was, he still had the scars of his experience, as he ascended he goes into spiritual form, the corruptible flesh of this body will not be in his presence." Unfortunately, you did not provide any Scripture which states or suggests what you have declared. The various passages which you quoted do not really address the issue under discussion (we aren't discussing "sin nature" or the contrast between sinfulness and holiness, etc).

The subject is concerning “glorified flesh”, we can’t just look at 1Corinthians 15 and point out the flesh here and there, look as to how it was created, what Jesus said about it, how it has been connected to sin. The phyiscal flesh, carnal man has roots of sin. Easias, (we can talk about this later) in the physical we look the same after the Holy Ghost expierence, do you think we look the same to Jesus after that experience?

[Nicodemus1968]

The spiritual mindset is the mindset which is in agreement with the Word of God. Your statement that "this physical world and the elements of it is (not) what God desires" seems to me to be based on a misunderstanding of certain things.

The "elements of the world" are to be "burned up" in judgment, thus the world that is, is to be destroyed by fire. Just as the previous world was destroyed by water. Yet, when the previous world was destroyed by water, it wasn't a total annihilation of physical reality, it was a destruction of the then existing world order, society, humans and their animals.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

He was talking about the temple, city of Jerusalem Etc. He told pilate if my kingdom was of the world my people would fight for this city, yet he said my kingdom is not of this world. Paul told the Romans “it is not meat and drink but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”

This world is part of Gods plan, he is not going to burn it up.

Genesis 8:22
While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

The only thing that burnt up as to what your talking about is....

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Jerusalem, the temple, city, and all the inhabitants were destroyed.

In conclusion this earth will remain, souls will be saved, miracles performed, and Gods spirit at liberty.

I’m answering some of the ones I can before I have to leave.

[TJJJ]

Bang bang.........

Looking good Nic, looking good.

[diakonos]

This really is an issue of eschatology. Is it not?

[Esaias]

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

He was talking about the temple, city of Jerusalem Etc. He told pilate if my kingdom was of the world my people would fight for this city, yet he said my kingdom is not of this world. Paul told the Romans “it is not meat and drink but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”

This world is part of Gods plan, he is not going to burn it up.

Genesis 8:22
While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

The only thing that burnt up as to what your talking about is....

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Jerusalem, the temple, city, and all the inhabitants were destroyed.

In conclusion this earth will remain, souls will be saved, miracles performed, and Gods spirit at liberty.

I’m answering some of the ones I can before I have to leave.

Perhaps you could just demonstrate the Scriptural proof for the claim "Jesus ceased to be a human being at the ascension at which time His personal body dissipated into nothingness".

[Esaias]

This really is an issue of eschatology. Is it not?

The resurrection, it's characteristics etc are certainly part of eschatology. Eschatology isn't actually the same as "Bible prophecy", though. Eschatology is the study (-ology) of the end state (eschat[on]). It covers both the end or completion of the world/age, as well as the end or completion or final state of the individual.

[Nicodemus1968]

When Jesus resurrected from the grave, there was no body in the tomb. Why? Because He had His body, the body that was placed in the grave underwent a change from mortal to immortal, and thus the grave was empty once He left it. One body, existing first as a natural body, then upon resurrection as a spiritual body. When the resurrection occurs, the NATURAL BODY IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. Why? Because the natural body has become the spiritual body. The grave is empty, nothing is there except the graveclothes. The natural body and the spiritual body are the same body under two different circumstances.

Esaias, the natural body and the spiritual body are not the same, period. You yourself have been quoting Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, one form is corruptible the other form is incorruptible.

Second, when Jesus was resurrected and presented himself before the disciples that was not his spiritual body.

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a SPIRIT hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The reason why the grave clothes were in the grave was because... he didn't need grave clothes we wasn't dead! Just like Jesus wouldn't of had a beggars garment on, because he wasn't a begger. They were able to physically touch him, they fed him fish, a spirit has no need for food. our spiritual body will not have flesh and bones, will not have need of food. he came in the physical body to present himself to those believers, just like the men that rose up from the grave and presented themselves in the city, they had to be known of the people for that wave offering to be fulfilled in Matthew 26. Jesus as well made himself known in a physical way to the disciples. Not because our physical body will be translated into our spiritual body.

[Esaias]

The subject is concerning “glorified flesh”, we can’t just look at 1Corinthians 15 and point out the flesh here and there, look as to how it was created, what Jesus said about it, how it has been connected to sin. The phyiscal flesh, carnal man has roots of sin. Easias, (we can talk about this later) in the physical we look the same after the Holy Ghost expierence, do you think we look the same to Jesus after that experience?

By "glorified flesh" are we to understand the phrase as referring to a belief that Jesus' hysical individual personal body was glorified by being resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal? Or are you using the phrase "glorified flesh" to mean that unregenerate human "flesh" in general was or is or will be "glorified"? Do you mean that people are inadvertently "glorifying flesh" by means of their particular doctrines? Here is what you started the discussion with:

Would like to know what others believe as far as Jesus’ body? Is it the same flesh yet glorified in the heavens? Did he go back to the spirit form he was before robing himself in flesh?

It seems the subject is Jesus' body. So going to 1 Cor 15, which explicitly addresses the subject of Jesus' resurrection and its relation to our resurrection, including the question "with what body are the dead raised", is a very logical first stop in a discussion about Jesus' esurrection, and the nature of a resurrected body.

As for the subject of the Fall and its consequences, universal depravity, etc, that was likewise addressed in 1 Cor 15 when Paul discusses the CHANGE that takes place, the distinction between natural and spiritual, corruption and incorruption, weakness and power, etc. Moreover, the question of "roots of sin" has no bearing on answering the question "did Jesus lose His body at the ascension"". Regardless of what anyone believes about "roots of sin", all are agreed that Jesus was and is without sin. So, "roots of sin" aren't actually relevant to the discussion.

Unless you believe Jesus had "roots of sin"?

[Esaias]

Esaias, the natural body and the spiritual body are not the same, period. You yourself have been quoting Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, one form is corruptible the other form is incorruptible.

Second, when Jesus was resurrected and presented himself before the disciples that was not his spiritual body.

The apostle said when a body is resurrected, it is resurrected "a spiritual body". I provided the scripture that says EXACTLY what I am claiming. You have not provided the scripture that says "when Jesurrected He didn't have a spiritual body yet", or "Jesus got His spiritual body at the ascension."

I already pointed out that the natural body and the spiritual body are, according to Paul, one body in two different states. IT is sown in corruption, IT is raised in incorruption. IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body. "It" is a pronoun that is SINGULAR. A pronoun stands in place of a noun. In this case, "it" means "the body." The body is sown in weakness, the body is raised in power. The body is sown a natural body, the body is raised a spiritual body.

Kind of like how there is a carnal man, and a spiritual man, although they are the same man. A carnal man who becomes a Christian is no longer a carnal man, but a spiritual man. Yet, it is the same man. When we say a "new" man, we mean the man has CHANGED and acquired new qualities, not that Fred has been replaced by Bob.



The reason why the grave clothes were in the grave was because... he didn't need grave clothes we wasn't dead! Just like Jesus wouldn't of had a beggars garment on, because he wasn't a begger. They were able to physically touch him, they fed him fish, a spirit has no need for food. our spiritual body will not have flesh and bones, will not have need of food. he came in the physical body to present himself to those believers, just like the men that rose up from the grave and presented themselves in the city, they had to be known of the people for that wave offering to be fulfilled in Matthew 26. Jesus as well made himself known in a physical way to the disciples. Not because our physical body will be translated into our spiritual body.

No scripture says a spirit hath not flesh AND BONES. He said flesh AND BLOOD. The Bible says the life of the flesh is in THE BLOOD. That is the natural body, the image of the first man Adam, his life is in his blood. If he bleeds out he dies. In resurrection, however, the life is in THE SPIRIT. The body is not animated by the blood but by the Spirit.

More to the point, however, He said behold it is I. He specifically said He wasn't a spirit and His touchable body was PROOF HE WAS REALLY ALIVE AND NOT SOME SPOOK. Somehow you completely miss the significance of that. It quite overthrows your theory altogether.

Jesus had no need to pretend. He was really alive. There was no body in the grave because He was resurrected. You never explained why there was no body left in the grave, nor did you address the issue of our resurrection being so very unlike His, in your theory. You never explained why nowadays bodies stay in graves when Christians are allegedly resurrected at death, even though when Jesus - the firstfruits of the resurrection - left behind no body.

You also did not show the scriptures that say at the ascension His body dissipated or "became spiritual".

[Esaias]

Bang bang.........

Looking good Nic, looking good.

:dogpat

[Esaias]

I cannot help but wonder why nobody can just post the scriptures that say "Jesus is no longer a man", or "Jesus has no body because it's a spiritual body" (wait, wut? lol), or "Jesus got a spiritual body at the ascension", or "Jesus lost His resurrection body at the ascension"?

I mean, it would sure make short work of the thread, wouldn't it? :heeheehee

[Evang.Benincasa]

I cannot help but wonder why nobody can just post the scriptures that say "Jesus is no longer a man", or "Jesus has no body because it's a spiritual body" (wait, wut? lol), or "Jesus got a spiritual body at the ascension", or "Jesus lost His resurrection body at the ascension"?

I mean, it would sure make short work of the thread, wouldn't it? :heeheehee

As far as MTD has stated, wouldn’t the “glorified flesh” a.k.a logos had been created in the beginning? Which created all things including itself? Therefore the glorified flesh was in the beginning and created all things even prior to the death, burial, and resurrection? That is just some conclusions I have drawn from what MTD had posted. But he would have to clarify.

[Nicodemus1968]

I cannot help but wonder why nobody can just post the scriptures that say "Jesus is no longer a man", or "Jesus has no body because it's a spiritual body" (wait, wut? lol), or "Jesus got a spiritual body at the ascension", or "Jesus lost His resurrection body at the ascension"?

I mean, it would sure make short work of the thread, wouldn't it? :heeheehee

Oh, dear diary! Thats a copout, you know exactly why it doesn't say that. Im going to call you out about something, we do use scripture with what were discussing. You and other will use that excuse because your being challenged.

Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom, but to them it is not given.

There may be some things that are not written exactly word for word for what we "need" it to say. thats where the gift of wisdom or knowledge will come in.

[Nicodemus1968]

The apostle said when a body is resurrected, it is resurrected "a spiritual body". I provided the scripture that says EXACTLY what I am claiming. You have not provided the scripture that says "when Jesurrected He didn't have a spiritual body yet", or "Jesus got His spiritual body at the ascension."

I already pointed out that the natural body and the spiritual body are, according to Paul, one body in two different states. IT is sown in corruption, IT is raised in incorruption. IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body. "It" is a pronoun that is SINGULAR. A pronoun stands in place of a noun. In this case, "it" means "the body." The body is sown in weakness, the body is raised in power. The body is sown a natural body, the body is raised a spiritual body.

Kind of like how there is a carnal man, and a spiritual man, although they are the same man. A carnal man who becomes a Christian is no longer a carnal man, but a spiritual man. Yet, it is the same man. When we say a "new" man, we mean the man has CHANGED and acquired new qualities, not that Fred has been replaced by Bob.



No scripture says a spirit hath not flesh AND BONES. He said flesh AND BLOOD. The Bible says the life of the flesh is in THE BLOOD. That is the natural body, the image of the first man Adam, his life is in his blood. If he bleeds out he dies. In resurrection, however, the life is in THE SPIRIT. The body is not animated by the blood but by the Spirit.

More to the point, however, He said behold it is I. He specifically said He wasn't a spirit and His touchable body was PROOF HE WAS REALLY ALIVE AND NOT SOME SPOOK. Somehow you completely miss the significance of that. It quite overthrows your theory altogether.

Jesus had no need to pretend. He was really alive. There was no body in the grave because He was resurrected. You never explained why there was no body left in the grave, nor did you address the issue of our resurrection being so very unlike His, in your theory. You never explained why nowadays bodies stay in graves when Christians are allegedly resurrected at death, even though when Jesus - the firstfruits of the resurrection - left behind no body.

You also did not show the scriptures that say at the ascension His body dissipated or "became spiritual".

I already used this scripture. Let this be a witness that I do indeed use scripture to back up the truth.

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE."

Body wasn't glorified, when he ascended into the heavens he translated into the spiritual, why because thats how its going to be with us. The flesh will go back from whence it was created, and our spiritual man will be with our creator.

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord."

You can look up the word "body" its talking about out physical body, you look up the word absent and it means depart.

Nicodemus Commentary for 2 Corinthians 5:8, "depart from the body, you'll be with your God"

Ive heard before from a "friend" of both Bro. Benincasa and myself as well talked about this subject, and he stated this verse is talking about this body of sin, were to be present with Lord here on earth. And that is simply not true.

[Esaias]

Oh, dear diary! Thats a copout, you know exactly why it doesn't say that. Im going to call you out about something, we do use scripture with what were discussing. You and other will use that excuse because your being challenged.

Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom, but to them it is not given.

There may be some things that are not written exactly word for word for what we "need" it to say. thats where the gift of wisdom or knowledge will come in.

Sounds like you are providing a copout, to be honest. Either we say what the Scriptures say, or we are wrong. Pretty simple.

[Esaias]

I already used this scripture. Let this be a witness that I do indeed use scripture to back up the truth.

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE."

Body wasn't glorified, when he ascended into the heavens he translated into the spiritual, why because thats how its going to be with us. The flesh will go back from whence it was created, and our spiritual man will be with our creator.

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord."

You can look up the word "body" its talking about out physical body, you look up the word absent and it means depart.

Nicodemus Commentary for 2 Corinthians 5:8, "depart from the body, you'll be with your God"

Ive heard before from a "friend" of both Bro. Benincasa and myself as well talked about this subject, and he stated this verse is talking about this body of sin, were to be present with Lord here on earth. And that is simply not true.

You are correct, I misread what you typed. My bad. He specified a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone, which He did in fact have. This proves He was NOT a disembodied spirit, but that He had really resurrected, it was really Him. Again, though, this actually proves my point: when He was raised, He had a very real body, His own personal body, of flesh and bone... and Paul says that resurrection body is a spiritual body.

So your theory that a spiritual body is not actually a real personal body is still contradicted by the plain scripture. :thumbsup

You said "when He ascended into heaven He translated into the spiritual", repeating your assertion yet again, but without any Scripture that says that, indicates that, suggests that, requires that, or remotely implies that.

[Esaias]

How is a spiritual body not a body? You object to us believing Jesus has His own personal resurrected body because, according to you, He has a spiritual body? That is a contradiction. If He has a spiritual body, then it is still a body. Spiritual body doesn't mean no body.

[Esaias]

As far as MTD has stated, wouldn’t the “glorified flesh” a.k.a logos had been created in the beginning? Which created all things including itself? Therefore the glorified flesh was in the beginning and created all things even prior to the death, burial, and resurrection? That is just some conclusions I have drawn from what MTD had posted. But he would have to clarify.

MTD doesn't clarify as a matter of policy, I guess?

lol

[mfblume]

Mike,
You need to break your thoughts in smaller spaces, not thesis form? The Bible can be discussed, iron sharpeners iron, yet the you take a whole page form your book or whatever gets overwhelming to have a discussion. In a sense your having a conversation by yourself.

No problem.. However, nobody was saying anything before the time I responded with those notes, while I awaited a response. So, I thought to lay out some information dealing with what was already stated, especially over the confusion between natural and physical.

Thanks for your thoughts and I will deal with them. I hope this doesn't veer into an attitude, which is what happened from the Start with TJJJ. It really did.

[votivesoul]

For background and context, I present below something I wrote about three years ago from this thread (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=49012), which Mike Blume was kind enough to resurrect.


I believe the following things:

1.) Jesus resurrected into the very body which He had when He died on the cross. It was a spiritual event, caused by "the glory of the Father" (Romans 6:4), but the effect was entirely physical, and occurred in the natural, material realm. Jesus plainly said, after His resurrection, that He was not mere spirit, but had flesh and bones, something spirits do not have (Luke 24:39). He invited them to touch Him and experience Him through their tactile senses, to prove the reality of His resurrected physicality. He was not a mirage, or a vision, or mass hallucination. He was present and accounted for, in true physical fashion.

However...

2.) Christ's physically resurrected reality defies the laws of physics and all other forms of natural science and medicine. His body had massive, unhealed wounds in them, and yet, He wasn't bleeding all over the place, and felt no pain, as shown when He invited Thomas to "reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side" (John 20:27). No normal, human body can experience holes in the hands and feet, and have a gaping hole the size of a Roman spear-head sufficient for a man to put his entire hand into it, and be considered standard.

It appears therefore, that there was no blood in His resurrected body (an assumption, I admit, but circumstantially born out by the evidence, i.e. the bloodlessness of His resurrected, but still mortally wounded/unhealed body).

This shows that, while His body was physical and real, it had become like something the world had never seen before.

3.) Jesus could obscure Himself supernaturally, after He resurrected, so that close, personal friends and disciples, who had walked with Him, talked with Him, and had even eaten the Passover Seder with Him before He was crucified, couldn't recognize Him (Luke 24:16). This isn't something a normal human can do, without a disguise or some other act of subterfuge. Jesus somehow made His face not look like His face, or somehow blinded these men's minds from experiencing standard facial recognition.

If the former, then Jesus can shift the physical structure and appearance of His face at will, making the physical nature of His human body unlike anything that has ever existed before.

4.) Jesus can dematerialize and rematerialize Himself at will (Luke 24:31 and John 20:19 and 26). Whether He can miraculously teleport, become invisible (i.e. refract light away from Himself), or phase Himself through walls, or all of the above, the fact is, in order to do so, the nature of His physical body had, in the resurrection, to have undergone a fundamental shift in what other normal human bodies are capable of doing. In order to do what Jesus did (disappear, reappear, teleport, and/or etc.) means that Jesus had to have been able to divest Himself of any standard molecular reality, while maintaining control over His existence in order to reinvest Himself with molecular reality. Physical molecules at the microscopic level are still physical, and cannot occupy the same space as say, the molecules that made up the door Jesus must have teleported or phased through in John 20. This means His molecules passed out of physical existence into a spiritual reality we cannot comprehend, then re-emerged back into comprehensible, physical reality.

5.) Jesus can defy gravity (Acts 1:9). As Christ ascended through the atmosphere, some scientific realities must be understood. Eventually, as one ascends higher and higher in the sky, breathable oxygen disappears, and the temperature plummets dramatically. If Christ didn't somehow phase His physical body out into a spiritual reality, then it would have to be realized that Jesus can exist in a physical frame without the need to breath, or to have warmth.

Since Jesus is now immortal, it might stand to reason, of course, that He had and has no need of blood, oxygen, and etc., in order to keep Him alive, but if His body was truly physical when He resurrected (and it was) then by necessity, unless we want to think of Jesus as some merely re-animated corpse a la a horror or zombie flick, we must recognize that such a physical body must still have some kind of physical needs. Jesus could eat (Luke 24:42). He could speak, (obviously, no Scripture reference needed!), but speaking requires the ability to breath, as exhaled air passes over the vocal cords.

And yet, as He ascended physically, if no change in Him occurred, Jesus would have lost the ability to breath, and thus, to speak, in any physical, natural way, that is.

6.) If no change into a spiritual form took place some time during the ascension, Jesus would have had to move His body to escape velocity, which is 7 miles/second, or 25,000 mph. And since escape velocity is not dependent upon the mass of the body leaving orbit, but rather upon the body from which the escaping body is departing, the same would be true of Christ's body: He would have had to move that physical form 25,000 mph to leave earth's orbit. See: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-es...age-human-body

This is where the whole Jesus still has a physical body begins to really break down. The stress of tidal and g-forces of 25,000 mph upon an unprotected human body, which hasn't been glorified yet in heaven, would tear it apart (This is called the Roche limit. It's what causes meteors to break up in earth's atmosphere as they descend through the sky, or satellites as they lose orbit and fall into the atmosphere). We could of course argue that the power of the Most High would hold Christ's body together, but...

7.) If Christ ascended through outer space in a physical form, and God kept it from being ripped to shreds, allowed it to survive without breathing, and kept it from immediately freezing into a solid mass of ice, then at some point however long it took, Christ ascended to a realm within the physical universe, meaning the "heaven" He ascended to was merely some place in the vastness of space. If Christ's body is still physical, then the heaven He ascended to has to be physical as well, and thus, a part of the material universe. This means the heaven we all want to go to and enjoy has a geo-spatial reality and relationship to where we are today on earth, that, with enough time and the proper heading, without any collisions, we could physically travel there, taking perhaps the same route Christ took in His ascension. Newtonian physics would allow us to get there, eventually, even if it took a million earth years.

But if Christ ascended to the Third Heaven, i.e. the Heaven of Heaven's, that cannot contain God, according to Solomon, then Jesus at some point had to have transcended the Second Heaven (i.e. the Celestial Realm of the physical universe) and gone off in a spiritual unknown.

8.) With all that being said, God can re-materialize the physical body of His Son at will in the physical, material realm--meaning it still exists, and as I believe, one day will for sure, when Christ returns in true, albeit fully glorified, physical form, "with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God..." (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Lastly all this talk about the Son of God no longer existing...

Jesus said, "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass..." (Revelation 2:18).

The glorified in heaven Messiah at the right hand of the Majesty on High who had departed earth decades before He spoke the words above, called Himself the Son of God.

The author of Hebrews wrote that God is able to save to the uttermost all that come to Him through His Son (Hebrews 7:25). Since God is still saving people to the uttermost those who come to Him through Christ Jesus the Son of God, then Jesus is still the Son of God.

I have not meant to say that the physical body of the Lord Jesus is now non-existent; rather it exists in a spiritual form that allows it to be in a spiritual place, i.e. heaven.

It's something akin to receiving the Holy Spirit. We receive a real Spirit, but it is no way physical, i.e. has no physical properties (e.g. mass, weight, and etc.), and yet the Holy Spirit literally enters our bodies and is physically present within us.

How is this so?

I don't know, but it is. In the same way, but in reverse, the physical body of Jesus has entered into the spiritual realm, where no physical properties exist, and yet, His body still exists, albeit in a way that permits access to Heaven (therefore, His body is now not physical, i.e. it has no physical properties, even though physical properties can be given back to it--yet if and when such is done, His body will no longer be in heaven, but in the physical, material universe, like at His Second Coming).

[votivesoul]

Now, with all that being posted and revisited, the question yet remains, where do the Holy Scriptures show that Christ no longer has a physical body while abiding in the heavenlies at the Right Hand of God?

I think two verses sum it up nicely:

Hebrews 5:7,

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

The days of Christ's flesh strongly suggests that there were and are days in which Christ has no flesh. The timeframe for having flesh is while He was here on earth. The timeframe for when Christ has no flesh is when He is not here on earth, that is, not here presently in a physical body.

But Christ is here, on earth, presently, albeit in the following manner:

1 Corinthians 15:45,

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Last Adam, Jesus of Nazareth is now a "quickening spirit", that is, a Life-Giving Spirit. Jesus is here on earth in, through, and as the Spirit of Truth, sometimes called the "Spirit of Christ" (Romans 8:9), the 'Spirit of God's Son" (Galatians 4:6). Jesus said as much when He said "I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you" in John 14:18.

Jesus returned to earth as the Comforter, or Paracletos (See John 14:16), that is, as Spirit, not as flesh. That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of Spirit is spirit (John 3:6). There is a difference between the two.

Now, if Christ should like to manifest Himself physically in the material realm, He may do so at His own discretion, for whatever are the eternal purposes of God.

But the chief manner and expression of Christ being manifested physically in the material realm, is in and through us, the Church, that is, His Body, for "as He is, so are we, in this present world" (1 John 4:17).

It behooves us then, to strive to achieve the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (Ephesians 4:13), which is, I believe, the true "Second Coming" of the Lord taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and elsewhere.

Matthew 10:24-25,

The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.

[votivesoul]

This all being said, it does not negate the fact that Jesus is called in the Holy Scriptures, a man, post resurrection and ascension. The gift of the Holy Spirit is to us the Father (God) and the Son (Man) (John 14:23), hence why we can affirm that the Father is in us (Ephesians 4:6) while also affirming that we have received the Spirit of God's Son (Galatians 4:6).

We do so by having received the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), Which is the Father and the Son (1 John 2:22), with Christ being in us, the Hope of Glory (Colossians 1:27). Christ is not in us as a physical man with a physical body, but rather, is in us as a spiritual man, making of us a spiritual body.

[votivesoul]

Finally, the debate between natural and spiritual from 1 Corinthians 15.

Let it be known that the word "natural" comes from the Greek word psychikon, from psuche, the Greek word for "soul". Therefore, "natural" should be understood as something close to "soulish". Natural therefore has nothing to do with a physical, material body, but is dealing with the immaterial soulish nature of humanity.

See:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-44.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/5591.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/5590.htm

The soulish body then that Paul writes of, is something altogether different than the bodies of our physical selves. The physical body is but flesh, that is, sarx. Our souls are incarnated into our physical bodies, but they are not physical in and of themselves.

These souls then, that Paul is talking about, are understood to be that which is created when animating spirit from God combines with physical flesh, making us "living souls" (see Genesis 2:7). The body (that is, the flesh) without the spirit is dead (James 2:26). But body combined with spirit makes for a soul, which is to say, a person. That is what Paul is dealing with, being sown a soulish body, being raised a spiritual body, that is, shedding the incarnated state of corruptible humanity to achieve an incorruptible spiritual state of permanent, perfected Christ-likeness in the resurrection.

[mfblume]

What's tjjj who Kept telling me to man up and answer, when I was actually writing posts while he typed that, now saying he won't answer?

[mfblume]

I agree with you mostly, Votivesoul. I would just add that I think the body of Jesus is still in existence and not to be rematerialized as if it exists, then didn't exist, and exists again. I'd say natural Physics don't affect the spiritual body. Who knows what it can do as far as entering heaven or not? I also don't see heaven as located in the physical universe. It's just another dimension that's non physical , for lack of a better word.

[Nicodemus1968]

The reason for this thread, was because where I Pastor I’m around 60%-70% of people believe in a physical kingdom that will come to pass in the near future. Jesus will come in his physical fleshy body and oversee a physical kingdom, matter of fact if they follow all the religions law, they may even have they’re own planet and become a god over it. I give bible studies at our local jail, and one of the men brought this up, how as Jesus ascended into heaven in his physical form, that’s the way we shall be as well. We may not have blood flowing, yet as you are now you will be in heaven, yet spiritualized. I wanted to see what others thought on this matter.

[Nicodemus1968]

2.) Christ's physically resurrected reality defies the laws of physics and all other forms of natural science and medicine. His body had massive, unhealed wounds in them, and yet, He wasn't bleeding all over the place, and felt no pain, as shown when He invited Thomas to "reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side" (John 20:27). No normal, human body can experience holes in the hands and feet, and have a gaping hole the size of a Roman spear-head sufficient for a man to put his entire hand into it, and be considered standard.

I appreciate your insight and wisdom on the matter. I just want to put some thoughts on the matter as well.

I would argue that the whole existence of Jesus was thing short of miraculous. Born of a women, without the seed of man. Confounded the religious leaders of the day with his wisdom and knowledge. Was able to call men back from the dead (John 11), was able to calm the sea by his word (Mark 4:39), healed a blind man with his spit and dirt, (John 9:6). With that said I’m not refuting anything Votivesoul said, I’m just trying to clearify some things. Those miracles I mentioned are just a couple to what he has done, read John 21, all the books cannot contain the things Jesus had done, that’s amazing. So, why would we expect anything else with his resurrection from the dead? Of course he wasn’t bleeding, he bled on the cross, the blood has already taken effect! TJJJ said it best, the resurrection was proof what the Holy Ghost will do for us, he showed the spiritual in physical way. Just like his death and burial, he was our example. Just as other graves where opened and men appeared before many, Jesus did the same. Death, and the grave had no power on him, yet he is SOURCE of all power.

3.) Jesus could obscure Himself supernaturally, after He resurrected, so that close, personal friends and disciples, who had walked with Him, talked with Him, and had even eaten the Passover Seder with Him before He was crucified, couldn't recognize Him (Luke 24:16). This isn't something a normal human can do, without a disguise or some other act of subterfuge. Jesus somehow made His face not look like His face, or somehow blinded these men's minds from experiencing standard facial recognition.

If the former, then Jesus can shift the physical structure and appearance of His face at will, making the physical nature of His human body unlike anything that has ever existed before.

4.) Jesus can dematerialize and rematerialize Himself at will (Luke 24:31 and John 20:19 and 26). Whether He can miraculously teleport, become invisible (i.e. refract light away from Himself), or phase Himself through walls, or all of the above, the fact is, in order to do so, the nature of His physical body had, in the resurrection, to have undergone a fundamental shift in what other normal human bodies are capable of doing. In order to do what Jesus did (disappear, reappear, teleport, and/or etc.) means that Jesus had to have been able to divest Himself of any standard molecular reality, while maintaining control over His existence in order to reinvest Himself with molecular reality. Physical molecules at the microscopic level are still physical, and cannot occupy the same space as say, the molecules that made up the door Jesus must have teleported or phased through in John 20. This means His molecules passed out of physical existence into a spiritual reality we cannot comprehend, then re-emerged back into comprehensible, physical reality.

As he appeared before the disciples in the room, or make himself not known to those walking on the road. He did the same before he resurrected. He passed through the crowd (Luke 4:30) Jesus defied gravity while he walked on the water (Matthew 15:26), look what happened with the transfiguration, (Matthew 17). What I’m trying to say is, God had a goal (if I can say that) in mind, to come to earth as a sacrifice, he was the Lamb Abraham talked about in Genesis, he was the spotless lamb from the foundation of the world. John 4:24, God is a spirit, and if we believe in ONE God manifested in the flesh... (1 Timothy 3:16) then we must believe Jesus is a spirit because (John 10:30) “I and my Father are one.” The flesh had one purpose, to die on a cross. That’s it! It’s not some trophy in heaven to show off, Jesus went back to spirit form at his ascension. Why, because God is a Spirit, no space can contain him, his spirit is the only spirit that can work by himself, we as humans we need help, demons work in clusters, but Gods spirit works alone. If you want a physical body of Jesus, look at the church. We’re many members but ONE body.

[Nicodemus1968]

I agree with you mostly, Votivesoul. I would just add that I think the body of Jesus is still in existence and not to be rematerialized as if it exists, then didn't exist, and exists again. I'd say natural Physics don't affect the spiritual body. Who knows what it can do as far as entering heaven or not? I also don't see heaven as located in the physical universe. It's just another dimension that's non physical , for lack of a better word.

Mike,
Why does the body of Jesus have to be in existence today? For what purpose, Jesus came in the flesh for a purpose. Is there something still lacking, not fulfilled, why would the body need to still exist?

[diakonos]

Mike,
Why does the body of Jesus have to be in existence today? For what purpose, Jesus came in the flesh for a purpose. Is there something still lacking, not fulfilled, why would the body need to still exist?

Because He’s coming back... :foottap

[coksiw]

Mike,
Why does the body of Jesus have to be in existence today? For what purpose, Jesus came in the flesh for a purpose. Is there something still lacking, not fulfilled, why would the body need to still exist?

Nicodemus, do you believe in Oneness?

The Son of God is a term referring to the incarnation:

Luke 1:35 KJV - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


In Revelation He is still the Son of God:

Rev 1:6 KJV - And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 2:27 KJV - And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

If the glorified body doesn't exist anymore, then there is no incarnation, there is no Son of God anymore, there is no Lamb. If the incarnation doesn't exist anymore, you either have to believe in the existence of the Son as a separate God that doesn't need an incarnation to be (unitarian, trinitarian, etc...); or the whole Bible, after the ascension of Jesus Christ, refers to Christ as a allegory or a past event before Pentecost, including Revelation.

Don't you think an empty grave tells you a clear loud message from God? Why do we need that testimony for?

[mfblume]

Mike,
Why does the body of Jesus have to be in existence today? For what purpose, Jesus came in the flesh for a purpose. Is there something still lacking, not fulfilled, why would the body need to still exist?

Yes, the world rules by man, last Adam is what I think folks are missing. The plan is not just to save us from sin. Saskatoon gets rid of the separation Between us and God It was to restore man in a kingdom over earth. That's in effect now. But we don't live forever as Adam would have had he not sinned. This is next on the agenda, and the resurrection will do that for us.

[mfblume]

It's not a physical kingdom if it's the way it is now in the Spirit, just with us having immortal bodies. We're doing it now in bodies. They ll just be immortal then, with no sin, death or sinners.

[Nicodemus1968]

Nicodemus, do you believe in Oneness?

The Son of God is a term referring to the incarnation:

Luke 1:35 KJV - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


In Revelation He is still the Son of God:

Rev 1:6 KJV - And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 2:27 KJV - And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

If the glorified body doesn't exist anymore, then there is no incarnation, there is no Son of God anymore, there is no Lamb. If the incarnation doesn't exist anymore, you either have to believe in the existence of the Son as a separate God that doesn't need an incarnation to be (unitarian, trinitarian, etc...); or the whole Bible, after the ascension of Jesus Christ, refers to Christ as a allegory or a past event before Pentecost, including Revelation.

Don't you think an empty grave tells you a clear loud message from God? Why do we need that testimony for?

I think you need to step back and read the thread again. I believe in ONE God! However, you don’t need the Flesh of Jesus to consummate the ONE God Law.

[diakonos]

I’m moving to Saskatoon.

[Nicodemus1968]

I’m moving to Saskatoon.

:happydance

[mfblume]

I think you need to step back and read the thread again. I believe in ONE God! However, you don’t need the Flesh of Jesus to consummate the ONE God Law.

However you do need the flesh to have a son of God. That which was born of Mary was called Son of God due to the birth. If there's nothing born of Mary there is no son of God.

[Nicodemus1968]

However you do need the flesh to have a son of God. That which was born of Mary was calledd Son of God due to the birth. If there's nothing born of Mary theyre is no son of God.

Very True.

[mfblume]

Very True.

So, how can there be A Son if there is no flesh? We're the body and he is the head, like Eve was Adam's body. But Adam did not lose his personal body when his wife was called his body. And the Son is in heaven.

The sercond coming wasn't the day of Pentecost, for Paul looked for the second coming decades after the day of Pentecost.

Oneness doesn't mean there can't be two manners of God to manifest just because the number two is used. It's not two persons. The father and Son are two witnesses Jesus said. So is the use of the number two to be taken obliviously without the distinction of two persons, to say a person is not oneness?

John 5: 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Oneness is one person.

[mfblume]

The reason for this thread, was because where I Pastor I’m around 60%-70% of people believe in a physical kingdom that will come to pass in the near future. Jesus will come in his physical fleshy body and oversee a physical kingdom, matter of fact if they follow all the religions law, they may even have they’re own planet and become a god over it. I give bible studies at our local jail, and one of the men brought this up, how as Jesus ascended into heaven in his physical form, that’s the way we shall be as well. We may not have blood flowing, yet as you are now you will be in heaven, yet spiritualized. I wanted to see what others thought on this matter.

We are in the kingdom now. Jesus is ruling and we are involved ruling with Him, treading on serpents and scorpions and fighting with the sword of the word of God. This is how the Kingdom will continue after the resurrection, except there will be no sin,devil, demons or sinners. And the kingdom is not going to become physical any more than it is now, with us involved having physical bodies. We wil have immortal ones at the res'urrection. And we will see Jesus in His physical immortal body, without the kingdom becoming physical.

Adam had dominion over the earth without a physical kingdom.

So, what do you mean by physical Kingdom, and why think whatever that means has to be the case if we believe Jesus will be with us in a physical body?

[mfblume]

I would argue that the whole existence of Jesus was thing short of miraculous. Born of a women, without the seed of man. Confounded the religious leaders of the day with his wisdom and knowledge. Was able to call men back from the dead (John 11), was able to calm the sea by his word (Mark 4:39), healed a blind man with his spit and dirt, (John 9:6). With that said I’m not refuting anything Votivesoul said, I’m just trying to clearify some things. Those miracles I mentioned are just a couple to what he has done, read John 21, all the books cannot contain the things Jesus had done, that’s amazing. So, why would we expect anything else with his resurrection from the dead? Of course he wasn’t bleeding, he bled on the cross, the blood has already taken effect! TJJJ said it best, the resurrection was proof what the Holy Ghost will do for us, he showed the spiritual in physical way. Just like his death and burial, he was our example. Just as other graves where opened and men appeared before many, Jesus did the same. Death, and the grave had no power on him, yet he is SOURCE of all power.

Jesus did supernatural things without having a supernatural body. However, his body from the tomb was supernatural and spiritual. Like Vitivesoul said, SPIRITUAL is contrasted from NATURAL, and natural means SOULISH and is not even pertaining to whether or not the body is physical.

And why can you not connect the resurrection when we get immortal bodies with the restoration of the Kingdom Adam lost, when he was supposed to rule over the world and lost that position? Do you not see Christ's work as a restoration of the kingdom Adam lost?


As he appeared before the disciples in the room, or make himself not known to those walking on the road. He did the same before he resurrected. He passed through the crowd (Luke 4:30)

Passing through the crowd is not the same as appearing form thin air in a location.

Jesus defied gravity while he walked on the water (Matthew 15:26), look what happened with the transfiguration, (Matthew 17).

The transfiguration was a VISION.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

But you have a point about Him ascending and defying gravity as he did when he walked on water.

However, that does not negate the fact that he arose with a spiritual body that was immortal.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

What part of Jesus died when He died? Whatever it was, it was what DIES NO MORE since he was raised. I see no other answer than to say that HIS BODY will die no more. Immortal body.


What I’m trying to say is, God had a goal (if I can say that) in mind, to come to earth as a sacrifice, he was the Lamb Abraham talked about in Genesis, he was the spotless lamb from the foundation of the world. John 4:24, God is a spirit, and if we believe in ONE God manifested in the flesh... (1 Timothy 3:16) then we must believe Jesus is a spirit because (John 10:30) “I and my Father are one.” The flesh had one purpose, to die on a cross. That’s it! It’s not some trophy in heaven to show off, Jesus went back to spirit form at his ascension. Why, because God is a Spirit, no space can contain him, his spirit is the only spirit that can work by himself, we as humans we need help, demons work in clusters, but Gods spirit works alone. If you want a physical body of Jesus, look at the church. We’re many members but ONE body.
Jesus is certainly a Spirit, yes. He was a Spirit when he was on earth at the same time in a body. He is eternal Spirit, so if there is a manifested presence in flesh, or not, that does not remove the fact that HE IS ALWAYS A SPIRIT. It's just that HE ALSO was in a body of flesh while His SPirit filled the universe. All you refer to with Jesus being a Spirit does not negate the fact that He has a BODY right now, because He was a SPIRIT at the same time He walked on the earth in a body.

But like I said, the flesh has more than the purpose of dying. He is LAST ADAM. And that means as a HUMAN BEING he rules the world.

Revelation shows Him as the one that died and lives again forever, which can only refer to humanity in which he was manifest because deity cannot die.

[Esaias]

Hebrews 5:7,

Quote:
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
The days of Christ's flesh strongly suggests that there were and are days in which Christ has no flesh. The timeframe for having flesh is while He was here on earth. The timeframe for when Christ has no flesh is when He is not here on earth, that is, not here presently in a physical body.


I think you are making an unwarranted leap here. The context shows "the days of His flesh" is referring to the time in the Garden prior to His arrest. In any event, in the days of His flesh does not require He has days with no flesh. It means rather when He lived as a mortal man, subject to the limitations of "flesh". Flesh as used in Scripture doesn't solely mean physical body. It rather is a generic term for human beings. "The God of all flesh" doesn't mean the God of all physical bodies, it means the God of all mankind.

Since we know he had a material body after His resurrection, since Paul said the body is resurrected as a spiritual body, and since the Bible says absolutely nothing about a change in His nature AFTER He resurrected, we can conclude that "in the days of His flesh" doesn't mean He now no longer has a personal body.

And furthermore, if in the days of His flesh requires He had days without flesh, those days without flesh need not be after His resurrection or ascension, but could very well be the days BEFORE His incarnation. Thus, His prayers occurred AFTER He incarnated, and not before, thus this passage is actually yet another blow to trinitarianism and binitarianism.

In any event, there is nothing in Scripture that says Jesus has no personal body, nor are there any passages that require that to be so, and there are numerous passages which DO require Him to still be human with a body.

[Esaias]

The reason for this thread, was because where I Pastor I’m around 60%-70% of people believe in a physical kingdom that will come to pass in the near future. Jesus will come in his physical fleshy body and oversee a physical kingdom, matter of fact if they follow all the religions law, they may even have they’re own planet and become a god over it. I give bible studies at our local jail, and one of the men brought this up, how as Jesus ascended into heaven in his physical form, that’s the way we shall be as well. We may not have blood flowing, yet as you are now you will be in heaven, yet spiritualized. I wanted to see what others thought on this matter.

It's not a physical kingdom if it's the way it is now in the Spirit, just with us having immortal bodies. We're doing it now in bodies. They ll just be immortal then, with no sin, death or sinners.

We are in the kingdom now. Jesus is ruling and we are involved ruling with Him, treading on serpents and scorpions and fighting with the sword of the word of God. This is how the Kingdom will continue after the resurrection, except there will be no sin,devil, demons or sinners. And the kingdom is not going to become physical any more than it is now, with us involved having physical bodies. We wil have immortal ones at the res'urrection. And we will see Jesus in His physical immortal body, without the kingdom becoming physical.

Adam had dominion over the earth without a physical kingdom.

So, what do you mean by physical Kingdom, and why think whatever that means has to be the case if we believe Jesus will be with us in a physical body?

What is a "physical kingdom"? I asked this before in I think several threads, and never really got an answer from anybody.

I say, there is no such thing as a physical kingdom and a nonphysical kingdom, the distinction is false. EVERY kingdom is a MORAL or "spiritual kingdom" because a kingdom literally only exists in the hearts and minds of people. The only possible exception would be referring to God's rule and sovereignty over physical reality itself (nature, atoms, molecules, gravity, electromagnetic radiation, etc). But that would definitely be a PHYSICAL kingdom, and would mean God clearly DOES have a physical kingdom!

So what does everyone mean when they argue either for or against a "physical" kingdom, either of God or men? I submit nobody using those terms has really thought out the implications and impossibilities of those terms. It's like saying "a physical government", it literally makes no sense, there's no such thing, it's an oxymoron, government or kingdom rules out the term physical right off the bat except in the science of biological taxonomy.

[Nicodemus1968]

So, how can there be A Son if there is no flesh? We're the body and he is the head, like Eve was Adam's body. But Adam did not lose his personal body when his wife was called his body. And the Son is in heaven.

The sercond coming wasn't the day of Pentecost, for Paul looked for the second coming decades after the day of Pentecost.

Oneness doesn't mean there can't be two manners of God to manifest just because the number two is used. It's not two persons. The father and Son are two witnesses Jesus said. So is the use of the number two to be taken obliviously without the distinction of two persons, to say a person is not oneness?

John 5: 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Oneness is one person.

We’re going to have to realize, what was the purpose for the “Son Of God”. The God of Heaven allowed his spirit to fill an earthly vessel born of a women, to be that sacrifice, “the Lamb of God”. What the blood of bulls and goats couldn’t do, the sacrifice on the cross did. Paul wrote he Hebrew church and said “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood...” (Hebrew 9:12). The only purpose for the Man Christ Jesus was for the cross/resurrection. God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and he abides in a heavenly realm. The son of God relates to the flesh, the flesh had the purpose to die on this cross. You can’t kill a spirit, for it has not flesh and bones (Luke 24:32), the spirit allowed the flesh to be raised to life, and to appear before his disciples. Remember, (Matthew 27:46) “.... Eli, Eli, lamasabachthani? That is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” The flesh began to talk, because the source of his live was departing. The Spirit of God was the driving force for that flesh, once the spirit left, you had flesh, bones, skin, blood. The spirit is what made it what it was. After the death and resurrection, what else is there to fulfill? God came in the flesh, took on a name that was hidden through the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament, showed humanity his divinity, took all sins past, present, and future and was a spotless lamb whose blood covered all our sins. He was buried according to scripture and was resurrected the third day also according to scripture. If God’s spirit didn’t fill that VESSEL it would be nothing! To say the flesh exists today, you’ll have to believe that there are 2 gods, and that all things have not been fulfilled. You can’t separate Jesus (spirit) from the God (spirit) they were one spirit; Gods spirit, the flesh was an instrument that obtained its purpose.

Why does God have to come back again? His word was fulfilled in 70 A.D, Jerusalem (Earth) and the Temple (Heaven) was destroyed for their wickedness. And the prophecy of Jesus came to pass (Matthew 24:34) that they’re we’re indeed some that heard the words of Jesus and saw the destruction and end of the world (age). Third Epistle of John written after 70 A.D destruction (lllJohn 1:2) “....prosper, and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” Instead of looking for a futuristic return of Jesus, we should (I’m not implying you don’t) be encountering church to reach for souls, to drive deeper into the spirit of God, be not yoked with this world, separate yourself with the spirits of this world, etc.. Please understand, I’m only going to say the following from what I have seen, I’m not saying this is everyone. The futuristic message births a spirit of complacency, fear, doubt. People ask me “why are so many leaving the church, young especially” look at what these young people have been fed the past 1-30 years, has it been what Paul declared in (l Corinthians 2:4) “And my speech, and my preaching was not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of Power.” We had enough enticing words, mans wisdom, we need the spirit and power.

[Esaias]

We’re going to have to realize, what was the purpose for the “Son Of God”. The God of Heaven allowed his spirit to fill an earthly vessel born of a women, to be that sacrifice, “the Lamb of God”. What the blood of bulls and goats couldn’t do, the sacrifice on the cross did. Paul wrote he Hebrew church and said “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood...” (Hebrew 9:12). The only purpose for the Man Christ Jesus was for the cross/resurrection. God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and he abides in a heavenly realm. The son of God relates to the flesh, the flesh had the purpose to die on this cross. You can’t kill a spirit, for it has not flesh and bones (Luke 24:32), the spirit allowed the flesh to be raised to life, and to appear before his disciples. Remember, (Matthew 27:46) “.... Eli, Eli, lamasabachthani? That is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” The flesh began to talk, because the source of his live was departing. The Spirit of God was the driving force for that flesh, once the spirit left, you had flesh, bones, skin, blood. The spirit is what made it what it was. After the death and resurrection, what else is there to fulfill? God came in the flesh, took on a name that was hidden through the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament, showed humanity his divinity, took all sins past, present, and future and was a spotless lamb whose blood covered all our sins. He was buried according to scripture and was resurrected the third day also according to scripture. If God’s spirit didn’t fill that VESSEL it would be nothing! To say the flesh exists today, you’ll have to believe that there are 2 gods, and that all things have not been fulfilled. You can’t separate Jesus (spirit) from the God (spirit) they were one spirit; Gods spirit, the flesh was an instrument that obtained its purpose.

Why does God have to come back again? His word was fulfilled in 70 A.D, Jerusalem (Earth) and the Temple (Heaven) was destroyed for their wickedness. And the prophecy of Jesus came to pass (Matthew 24:34) that they’re we’re indeed some that heard the words of Jesus and saw the destruction and end of the world (age). Third Epistle of John written after 70 A.D destruction (lllJohn 1:2) “....prosper, and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” Instead of looking for a futuristic return of Jesus, we should (I’m not implying you don’t) be encountering church to reach for souls, to drive deeper into the spirit of God, be not yoked with this world, separate yourself with the spirits of this world, etc.. Please understand, I’m only going to say the following from what I have seen, I’m not saying this is everyone. The futuristic message births a spirit of complacency, fear, doubt. People ask me “why are so many leaving the church, young especially” look at what these young people have been fed the past 1-30 years, has it been what Paul declared in (l Corinthians 2:4) “And my speech, and my preaching was not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of Power.” We had enough enticing words, mans wisdom, we need the spirit and power.

Perhaps you could actually address the Scriptures that have been presented to you instead of shifting the conversation to other things or just repeating your claims without showing the actual Scriptural proof of them? "To say the flesh exists today you have to say there are two gods" is pure poppycock. Otherwise there were two gods when Jesus walked the earth.
When you constantly throw out statements like these it just looks like you are avoiding the Scriptures that were presented to you, that you are just sticking your fingers in your ears refusing to face the fact your theory is completely unbiblical. I'm not trying to be rude but you really have just been dancing around the key points in this thread. All these pages and you haven't given chapter and verse that says Jesus lost His body at the ascension or that He is no longer human.

John 8:35 says the Son abides forever, Psalm 110:4 says Christ is to be a PRIEST FOREVER according the order of Melchizedek.

[diakonos]

If one topic at a time was discussed... agh... this thread is making me dizzy.

Back to the jewtubes.

[Nicodemus1968]

Perhaps you could actually address the Scriptures that have been presented to you instead of shifting the conversation to other things or just repeating your claims without showing the actual Scriptural proof of them? "To say the flesh exists today you have to say there are two gods" is pure poppycock. Otherwise there were two gods when Jesus walked the earth.
When you constantly throw out statements like these it just looks like you are avoiding the Scriptures that were presented to you, that you are just sticking your fingers in your ears refusing to face the fact your theory is completely unbiblical. I'm not trying to be rude but you really have just been dancing around the key points in this thread. All these pages and you haven't given chapter and verse that says Jesus lost His body at the ascension or that He is no longer human.

John 8:35 says the Son abides forever, Psalm 110:4 says Christ is to be a PRIEST FOREVER according the order of Melchizedek.

Esaias,
I have given you scripture, please read all my posts in this thread. You ask “give me scripture that says there is no fleshy body of the human form of Jesus”, I’m sorry I can’t. If I ask you to give me a scripture that says, the physical, natural body of Jesus is in Heaven? You through this body are separating one into two, you use (John 8:35), to prove what Jesus the son (human form) abides forever, where is God in the spirit or should I ask what is Jesus in the spirit realm? You quote (lCorinthians 15) as well as I do, but is that for Jesus, or is that for us. Remember, we desire the resurrection, he IS the resurrection (John 11:25). We need a body, you desire that as a sinner desires the Holy Ghost, why do you need this body, because if there is no body, that means.....

Flesh and Spirit are warring against each other, we understand that, the body of God is not a trophy, it was a vessel that’s all, sorry I don’t have scripture for that, you should have enough understand to believe that, our bodies are not trophies, the spirit within us is a trophy. Our spirits in the heavenly realm will not be our bodies on earth, they’re going to be something totally different, the seed looks NOTHING like the plant.

[Nicodemus1968]

If one topic at a time was discussed... agh... this thread is making me dizzy.

Back to the jewtubes.

This what happens when men have an agenda and seek not after the spirit but after the physical.

Not sure what Jewtubes are.

[coksiw]

Flesh (depending on the context), flesh and bone (very common expression also in the Old Testament), flesh and blood, are all idioms. You can't think of them as telling you something hidden or scientifically literal to the modern reader.

The word natural in 1 Cor 15:44 is also translated as "sensual" in other contexts. It is referring to the current human body with its sensual desires. In the resurrection we won't be struggling with sensuality:
Mat 22:30 KJV - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I don't see how Paul is referring to "natural" or "flesh and blood" contrasting with "spiritual" from the scientific standpoint of biology or physics. It can only mean that in our current rationale/scientific-brain-washed minds. That contrast simply talks about the sensuality, dominance of carnal instincts, etc..., we struggle with vs the free from all those things and lead by the spirit bodies we will have. They are both physicals, but one sensual, glutton, savage, greedy, and the other one free from the intrinsic natural desires that make you commit those sins to begin with, e.g. the desire to procreate.
You have to trust God with the details regarding how it will actually be.

[TJJJ]

Nicodemus, you are spitting in the wind with E and MB. They must have the literal body of Jesus up in Heaven so that they can satisfy the dispees.

I guess.

[diakonos]

Nicodemus, you are spitting in the wind with E and MB. They must have the literal body of Jesus up in Heaven so that they can satisfy the dispees.

I guess.

Stop it!

[diakonos]

This what happens when men have an agenda and seek not after the spirit but after the physical.

Not sure what Jewtubes are.

:foottap

[Esaias]

Esaias,
I have given you scripture, please read all my posts in this thread. You ask “give me scripture that says there is no fleshy body of the human form of Jesus”, I’m sorry I can’t.

Thank you. That's enough for me.

If I ask you to give me a scripture that says, the physical, natural body of Jesus is in Heaven?

I never claimed the natural body of Jesus is in heaven. I explicitly showed His resurrection body is a spiritual body, and I explicitly showed it is NOT a natural body. This is another example of shifting the goal posts in this discussion.

You through this body are separating one into two, you use (John 8:35), to prove what Jesus the son (human form) abides forever, where is God in the spirit or should I ask what is Jesus in the spirit realm? You quote (lCorinthians 15) as well as I do, but is that for Jesus, or is that for us. Remember, we desire the resurrection, he IS the resurrection (John 11:25). We need a body, you desire that as a sinner desires the Holy Ghost, why do you need this body, because if there is no body, that means.....

Flesh and Spirit are warring against each other, we understand that, the body of God is not a trophy, it was a vessel that’s all, sorry I don’t have scripture for that, you should have enough understand to believe that, our bodies are not trophies, the spirit within us is a trophy. Our spirits in the heavenly realm will not be our bodies on earth, they’re going to be something totally different, the seed looks NOTHING like the plant.

All this is misdirection and rabbit trails meant to distract from the fact that, as you already admitted, you have no Scripture that teaches what you teach. I reject any doctrine not taught in Scripture. When someone says "I dont have scriptures for that but you should be smart enough to know it is true" I am smart enough to know they are actually saying I should agree with them because they hold more authority than God's Word. Let God be true and let every man be a liar.

It was an interesting discussion, thanks for your contributions. :thumbsup

[Esaias]

Nicodemus, you are spitting in the wind with E and MB. They must have the literal body of Jesus up in Heaven so that they can satisfy the dispees.

I guess.

It is spitting in the wind to discuss doctrine with people like yourself who never explain anything, never answer questions, and never even try to make a scriptural case for their bizarre theories.

[Nicodemus1968]

[QUOTE=Esaias;1575116]Thank you. That's enough for me.

With all due respect, you remind me of a person that says “the Bible doesn’t say, not to watch T.V. so it’s ok!”

[Nicodemus1968]

Flesh (depending on the context), flesh and bone (very common expression also in the Old Testament), flesh and blood, are all idioms. You can't think of them as telling you something hidden or scientifically literal to the modern reader.

The word natural in 1 Cor 15:44 is also translated as "sensual" in other contexts. It is referring to the current human body with its sensual desires. In the resurrection we won't be struggling with sensuality:
Mat 22:30 KJV - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I don't see how Paul is referring to "natural" or "flesh and blood" contrasting with "spiritual" from the scientific standpoint of biology or physics. It can only mean that in our current rationale/scientific-brain-washed minds. That contrast simply talks about the sensuality, dominance of carnal instincts, etc..., we struggle with vs the free from all those things and lead by the spirit bodies we will have. They are both physicals, but one sensual, glutton, savage, greedy, and the other one free from the intrinsic natural desires that make you commit those sins to begin with, e.g. the desire to procreate.
You have to trust God with the details regarding how it will actually be.

I believe your on the right track, with everything you have to “consider the source”. Your correct we will not know all the details until that day we breathe our last breath, the resurrection will be revealed to us. In your study also remember who Paul was writing to in I Corinthians, he was writing to the church and now for our admonition to us. I Corinthians was not written to Jesus Christ, yet, some of our friends want to make our resurrection be that of Jesus Christ. Remember John 11:25 stats he is the resurrection and the life, we’re not the resurrection, but he is. We will have a spiritual body, will it be the body we have now, No! Will God be robed in the body he dwelled in while on Earth, yet spiritualized, NO! The body was a vessel that served its purpose. The reason why they need the body is for a 2nd coming, or 3rd coming however many! All things to them have not been fulfilled there is still lacking. It’s sad, yet, the world goes on.

[Nicodemus1968]

Nicodemus, you are spitting in the wind with E and MB. They must have the literal body of Jesus up in Heaven so that they can satisfy the dispees.

I guess.

Sad they’ll lay aside truth for their traditions. Waiting for Jesus the son, or God the father to come back since the 1980’s. And yet they’ll proclaim “One God”.

No more from me on this subject.

[mfblume]

What is a "physical kingdom"? I asked this before in I think several threads, and never really got an answer from anybody.

I say, there is no such thing as a physical kingdom and a nonphysical kingdom, the distinction is false. EVERY kingdom is a MORAL or "spiritual kingdom" because a kingdom literally only exists in the hearts and minds of people. The only possible exception would be referring to God's rule and sovereignty over physical reality itself (nature, atoms, molecules, gravity, electromagnetic radiation, etc). But that would definitely be a PHYSICAL kingdom, and would mean God clearly DOES have a physical kingdom!

So what does everyone mean when they argue either for or against a "physical" kingdom, either of God or men? I submit nobody using those terms has really thought out the implications and impossibilities of those terms. It's like saying "a physical government", it literally makes no sense, there's no such thing, it's an oxymoron, government or kingdom rules out the term physical right off the bat except in the science of biological taxonomy.

What people think of as physical kingdoms is so varying its pointless it seems to talk about it. I'd say a spritual kingdom is what we have now. But who is to say what the others here are referring to?

[mfblume]

Sad they’ll lay aside truth for their traditions. Waiting for Jesus the son, or God the father to come back since the 1980’s. And yet they’ll proclaim “One God”.

No more from me on this subject.join tjjj with his superiority complex, thinking you're all on higher level than the rest of us alleged oneness people since your oneness is the best.

This is the problem. Not discussing. You speak as though it's not oneness if there is a father/son distinction with flesh, but yet that is the case when jesus was on earth, and you say that is oneness.

If there us that distinction on earth and its oneness, then what in the world does it mean to say that distinction cannot be present in heaven to be oneness?? Its the same thing just different location.

Abd no one wanta the lord to come to back physically. Its just that the word says he will. And Esaias is right.. We present bible and you do not explain it from your view but deal with totally different passsages. We say natural does not mean physical and prove it with greek lexicons, and other verses using the same word, and you ignore it. Never respond to it. And go on With some idea not actually taught in bible that God is not one if a son/father distinction is present in heaven, though it is one of its in earth.

I say the kingdom aspect of a last adam demands a son with sinless flesh and you ignore that, and keep saying things Tha are not taught in the bible. Then you say you're not taking any more and claim we're not oneness.

So, you might as well go and enjoy your superiority without us defilers of your presence. That elitism is the true Phairsaism. Keep telling yourself you're better.

Meanwhile you never responded to points er made, showing your inability, regardless.

[Esaias]

With all due respect, you remind me of a person that says “the Bible doesn’t say, not to watch T.V. so it’s ok!”

And you remind me of every pope, who says "The Bible doesn't say XYZ but you have to believe it because I say so, or else."

:dogpat

[Esaias]

What people think of as physical kingdoms is so varying its pointless it seems to talk about it. I'd say a spritual kingdom is what we have now. But who is to say what the others here are referring to?

I have no idea what those other guys are referring to because they won't tell, must be a secret only known to the initiates of their little Honeycomb Hideout club.

I'd say the difference ought to be natural or carnal kingdom vs spiritual kingdom, ie kingdom of men vs kingdom of God. That way the point of comparison is the source of law, nature of government, characteristics of the subjects, and power and method of enforcement of the governor's will. That would keep the discussion within reasonable and Scriptural bounds. In my opinion, anyway.

[Esaias]

Sad they’ll lay aside truth for their traditions. Waiting for Jesus the son, or God the father to come back since the 1980’s. And yet they’ll proclaim “One God”.

No more from me on this subject.

For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
(1 Thessalonians 1:8-10)

I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(1 Timothy 6:13-14)

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
(2 Timothy 4:1)

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(Titus 2:11-13)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
(1 Peter 1:3-9)

O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory. The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen. He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise. Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm. With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King. Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.
(Psalms 98:1-9)

[Esaias]

Flesh (depending on the context), flesh and bone (very common expression also in the Old Testament), flesh and blood, are all idioms. You can't think of them as telling you something hidden or scientifically literal to the modern reader.

The word natural in 1 Cor 15:44 is also translated as "sensual" in other contexts. It is referring to the current human body with its sensual desires. In the resurrection we won't be struggling with sensuality:
Mat 22:30 KJV - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I don't see how Paul is referring to "natural" or "flesh and blood" contrasting with "spiritual" from the scientific standpoint of biology or physics. It can only mean that in our current rationale/scientific-brain-washed minds. That contrast simply talks about the sensuality, dominance of carnal instincts, etc..., we struggle with vs the free from all those things and lead by the spirit bodies we will have. They are both physicals, but one sensual, glutton, savage, greedy, and the other one free from the intrinsic natural desires that make you commit those sins to begin with, e.g. the desire to procreate.
You have to trust God with the details regarding how it will actually be.

Are you saying the difference between the natural body and the spiritual body is a matter of sin vs sinlessness? It seems to me that is what you are essentially saying. But if that is true, then Jesus had His spiritual body during His earthly life, and never had a natural body. Which contradicts Paul's teaching on the resurrection, that it is the natural body which dies and the spiritual body which rises. Furthermore, the NT commands us to be led by the Spirit and subject to the law of God in this life, prior to either physical death or resurrection. So it seems that the distinction between natural bodies and spiritual bodies is more than just the presence or absence of sin. The natural body is defined by Paul as weak and mortal and corruptible, subject to death, whereas the spiritual body is defined as a body of power, incorruptible, immortal, not subject to death, etc. This indicates the distinction is in fact metaphysical, having to do with the very "substance" of the body and it's characteristics, and not merely the moral character of the individual.

I may, however, have misunderstood what you were saying. If so please clarify.

[Esaias]

Not at all Mike, the real problem is what perspective are you using versus my using.

We look at the same verse and see two different things.

You see physical and I see spiritual.

You talk about the body of Christ Jesus and see a little body in heaven somewhere, sitting on the right hand of God the Father Jesus.

I talk about the Body of Christ and see the Church. The Body of Christ!

Sitting on the Right hand of Power.

As long as you hold on to the physical dimension you will never see the spiritual.

Let's examine this little tidbit of pearly wisdom, shall we?

To think of a "little body in heaven somewhere" is to have a "physical" mindset. But to think of a bunch of little bodies on earth is to have a "spiritual" mindset.

As any reasonable person can see, this so called "spiritual" mindset isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[Esaias]

You need the physical body because to you everything is physical.

Physical sabbath, laws for the physical, ie not eating pork and etc....

You guys are living in the OT.

The moment that you realize that the NT is spiritual then you lose the physical necessity. That is your problem.



There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 8:1-8)

According to TJ's heresy, to be subject to the law of God is to be physical or "carnal", and "stuck in the OT". To be "spiritual" is, according to him, to be free from such pesky things as the commandments of God.

But according to the New Testament, not being subject to the law of God is to be carnal, "in the flesh", and such people CANNOT please God. Whereas those who are spiritual and NOT carnal are those in whom the righteousness of the law is fulfilled, who do not walk according to the flesh (in disobedience to the law of God). Thus, those who refuse to submit to the law of God are carnal and in the flesh and cannot please God. Regardless of how much they pretend they are "spiritual" and above the rest of us simple minded folk who just want to do what God says to do.

[Esaias]

I have argued this with the Mormons and JW's for long enough to see the same doctrinal position with them also.



The JWs believe that Jesus Christ never did actually resurrect, that He dissolved in the grave and God re-created the archangel Michael who now (they say) goes by the name "Jesus" and who has a spiritual angelic body. They also believe the 144,000 resurrect immediately upon death and go to heaven in spiritual bodies, completely different from the bodies the rest of the saints (and of all mankind) will have on their resurrection. They also believe the Parousia of Jesus was an invisible "coming" indicated by war and commotion, just like TJ does. The only difference is TJ and them disagree about the date. Basically, TJ and the JWs have quite a bit in common, including the utter inability to actually support their theories with Bible, chapter, and verse, instead just demanding everyone believe their claims, don't ask questions, and anyone who doesn't buy what they are selling is "unspiritual", "blind", and "deceived".

The Mormons likewise do not base their doctrines and theories on the Bible with book, chapter, and verse, but like TJ require some vague indefinable "illumination" or epiphany, like the Mormon "burning in the bosom testimony". And, also like the Mormons and JWs and Roman Catholics, demand everyone accept their unsupported unbiblical theories just because they say so, and anyone not buying it is "unspiritual" and "deceived" and generally stupid.

:thumbsup

[mfblume]

Not at all Mike, the real problem is what perspective are you using versus my using.

We look at the same verse and see two different things.

You see physical and I see spiritual.

Never able to see that natural is not synonymous with physical. Typical plugged ears while hollering lalala.

[coksiw]

Are you saying the difference between the natural body and the spiritual body is a matter of sin vs sinlessness? It seems to me that is what you are essentially saying. But if that is true, then Jesus had His spiritual body during His earthly life, and never had a natural body. Which contradicts Paul's teaching on the resurrection, that it is the natural body which dies and the spiritual body which rises. Furthermore, the NT commands us to be led by the Spirit and subject to the law of God in this life, prior to either physical death or resurrection. So it seems that the distinction between natural bodies and spiritual bodies is more than just the presence or absence of sin. The natural body is defined by Paul as weak and mortal and corruptible, subject to death, whereas the spiritual body is defined as a body of power, incorruptible, immortal, not subject to death, etc. This indicates the distinction is in fact metaphysical, having to do with the very "substance" of the body and it's characteristics, and not merely the moral character of the individual.

I may, however, have misunderstood what you were saying. If so please clarify.


It is definitely more than just sin vs sinless, as you can see how I say that the new bodies will be "free from...desire to procreate":
Mat 22:30 KJV - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This is what I believe and makes sense to me:


We will resurrect like him:

Act 26:23 KJV - That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
1Jo 3:2 KJV - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

How Jesus resurrection was:

Luk 24:36 KJV - And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:39, 41 KJV - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. ... And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

Jesus had a material body, but it could appear and disappear. He could also eat and could recognize the disciples (not Amnesia, or not know who you are). Notice the expression "flesh and bones" and how Jesus used it to contrast it with "spirit", which is a clear indication of a material essence. The expression "flesh and bones" doesn't mean bloodless. It is a Hebrew idiom to mean human or in figurative speech as in "you are my flesh and my bones". You can search the expression in the OT.

This was intentional, it means that the body was brought back to life and changed:

Luk 24:3 KJV - And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.


Now, when people go to the Paulines letter, they get confused as they also get confused with speaking in tongues and such. Didn't Peter say it? 2Pe 3:15 KJV - And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

To really understand it you know you need to know the context well, otherwise you end up interpreting verses like Rom 12:8 that some people ought to show mercy and some don't, or that in 1 Corinthians 7:34, the married women can't be concerned of the things of the Lord.


Regarding the natural body vs spiritual body in 1 Cor 15 debate, what triggered the whole passage?
This: 1Co 15:35 KJV - But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

What was the point of Paul? I believe that Paul is simply stating that we are talking about different natures, and yes they are still material, otherwise it will contradict the witnesses of Jesus resurrection that he also mentioned at the beginning of the chapter, but they are different nature. In fact, the Corintians apparently got well the idea that we are actually brought back to life, but they were confused with the nature of the new life. He was the one that preached to the Corintians first (Act 18:1, 1Co 15:1); so Paul had preached about the resurrection before to them. So at this point he was extending the topic.

Some may argue that the question in verse 35 is a rhetorical question trying to highlight that resurrection was "absurd" from those saying that there was no resurrection and Paul was trying to answer it, but I believe that it was an honest question from those that believed it. Paul had already addressed the first group in the previous verses, and detailing so much about the nature of the resurrected body makes me think he wasn't just trying to shut up those that said there wasn't resurrection.

It seems that they didn't understand that even though it was the material body, it needed to change into a different nature.
You can see this clearly if you analyze the verses prior to verse 44, how Paul uses illustration to get you to reason and understand that when we are talking of the resurrected bodies in the age to come, we are talking about a different "nature/kind" in comparison with our current body.
That's why Paul says in verse 52 that "we shall be changed" to the new nature, and in verse 53, that we "must put on". Our body have to change to the new nature to enter into the manifested kingdom of God. That takes us to verse 50 where he says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". There must be a changed in nature. I don't believe the "flesh and blood" here means a literal biological sense, but instead the current human nature that is mortal, and corruptible, which make sense in the context of the whole passage. You can change "flesh and blood" with "mortal man".

So yes, I believe the new nature will be: material, immortal, incorruptible, sinless, full of life!

We are definitely not "spirits" in the resurrection.

[Esaias]

It is definitely more than just sin vs sinless, as you can see how I say that the new bodies will be "free from...desire to procreate":
Mat 22:30 KJV - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This is what I believe and makes sense to me:


We will resurrect like him:

Act 26:23 KJV - That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
1Jo 3:2 KJV - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

How Jesus resurrection was:

Luk 24:36 KJV - And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:39, 41 KJV - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. ... And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

Jesus had a material body, but it could appear and disappear. He could also eat and could recognize the disciples (not Amnesia, or not know who you are). Notice the expression "flesh and bones" and how Jesus used it to contrast it with "spirit", which is a clear indication of a material essence. The expression "flesh and bones" doesn't mean bloodless. It is a Hebrew idiom to mean human or in figurative speech as in "you are my flesh and my bones". You can search the expression in the OT.

This was intentional, it means that the body was brought back to life and changed:

Luk 24:3 KJV - And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.


Now, when people go to the Paulines letter, they get confused as they also get confused with speaking in tongues and such. Didn't Peter say it? 2Pe 3:15 KJV - And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

To really understand it you know you need to know the context well, otherwise you end up interpreting verses like Rom 12:8 that some people ought to show mercy and some don't, or that in 1 Corinthians 7:34, the married women can't be concerned of the things of the Lord.


Regarding the natural body vs spiritual body in 1 Cor 15 debate, what triggered the whole passage?
This: 1Co 15:35 KJV - But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

What was the point of Paul? I believe that Paul is simply stating that we are talking about different natures, and yes they are still material, otherwise it will contradict the witnesses of Jesus resurrection that he also mentioned at the beginning of the chapter, but they are different nature. In fact, the Corintians apparently got well the idea that we are actually brought back to life, but they were confused with the nature of the new life. He was the one that preached to the Corintians first (Act 18:1, 1Co 15:1); so Paul had preached about the resurrection before to them. So at this point he was extending the topic.

Some may argue that the question in verse 35 is a rhetorical question trying to highlight that resurrection was "absurd" from those saying that there was no resurrection and Paul was trying to answer it, but I believe that it was an honest question from those that believed it. Paul had already addressed the first group in the previous verses, and detailing so much about the nature of the resurrected body makes me think he wasn't just trying to shut up those that said there wasn't resurrection.

It seems that they didn't understand that even though it was the material body, it needed to change into a different nature.
You can see this clearly if you analyze the verses prior to verse 44, how Paul uses illustration to get you to reason and understand that when we are talking of the resurrected bodies in the age to come, we are talking about a different "nature/kind" in comparison with our current body.
That's why Paul says in verse 52 that "we shall be changed" to the new nature, and in verse 53, that we "must put on". Our body have to change to the new nature to enter into the manifested kingdom of God. That takes us to verse 50 where he says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". There must be a changed in nature. I don't believe the "flesh and blood" here means a literal biological sense, but instead the current human nature that is mortal, and corruptible, which make sense in the context of the whole passage. You can change "flesh and blood" with "mortal man".

So yes, I believe the new nature will be: material, immortal, incorruptible, sinless, full of life!

We are definitely not "spirits" in the resurrection.

:yourock

Although I suspect it is possible our resurrected bodies will not have blood (the llife of the flesh in the blood, thats the Adamic body, the new will be animated by the Spirit). I also don't see it as a major issue: we may indeed have blood, but the animating force will not be natural life but spiritual life. In any event, I pretty much agree with what you said.

About baptism for the dead, many speculations abound. Do you think it is possible he was referring to Christ? "If the dead do not rise, Christ is still dead, so why was anyone baptised into Christ (ie for a dead man) if the dead rise not?" Thoughts?

[coksiw]

:yourock

Although I suspect it is possible our resurrected bodies will not have blood (the llife of the flesh in the blood, thats the Adamic body, the new will be animated by the Spirit). I also don't see it as a major issue: we may indeed have blood, but the animating force will not be natural life but spiritual life. In any event, I pretty much agree with what you said.

About baptism for the dead, many speculations abound. Do you think it is possible he was referring to Christ? "If the dead do not rise, Christ is still dead, so why was anyone baptised into Christ (ie for a dead man) if the dead rise not?" Thoughts?

Looking at the topic being defended there, I see that: the point was that if there is not resurrection then several things would lack any sense, those being:

- preaching is vain
- faith is vain
- we are still in our sins (if he didn't raise then, his dead wasn't expiatory, for he simply died like any other man)
- we would be the most miserable (suffering persecution for nothing as he extends in verse 30-32)

In this context, I believe the "dead" here means Christ death and our death in baptism: the whole concept of "death" associated with baptism. I understand that "they" is referring to the same "they that are Christ's" (v 23). What I get in the passage is that Paul is strongly saying: there is no entering into the manifested kingdom of God (future aspect of salvation) without resurrection, and there is no resurrection unless you are baptized into Christ death for the remission of sins, where you also die. If there is not resurrection, then why being baptized into his death? Or more: if Christ didn't raise, how do we have the testimony and sign from God that his death was in fact expiatory for our sins? That was the sign left to the world that this is the real deal; that we should not look anywhere else to be saved.

Paul is definitely making all of this as an inseparable thing: resurrection being a core component in the salvation, there is no entering in heaven without resurrection, and if the dead doesn't raise then, in Paul's mind, everything else we do or preach is nonsense.

Those are my thoughts. So I agree with you, but also I think Paul used a more general phrase for the whole relationship between baptism and dead. There is also a rhetorical component here by the repetition of the word nekros (dead) so many times in the passage (14 times).

That or Paul was just contradicting the "there is no resurrection" people because they used to baptize on behalf of the dead even though they didn't believe in the resurrection (and "they" means those guys). This position needs a lot of historical context to prove that those that believe in no resurrection were in fact also people that practiced baptism on behalf of the dead. I haven't even looked into it.

[mfblume]

(29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Paul furthers his argument for a resurrection of the believers by asking people what other purpose would there be for baptism for the dead if believers are not going to resurrect.

Some scholars claim that this is the most difficult verse in the entire New Testament.

Paul referred to the death of Jesus Christ, into which we enter by water baptism, and the term also referred to the experience of death when a believer is martyred, when he wrote the phrase, “baptized for the dead.”

This same apostle explained, in His Epistle to the Romans, that baptism into Jesus Christ’s death causes us to be one of those who rise to walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:3-5 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Water baptism, which I believe Romans 6:3 is clearly speaking about, puts us into the death of Jesus Christ by faith. It’s not baptism only, though, but faith coupled with baptism. It is for the purpose of seeing us rise to walk in newness of life just as Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. Paul clearly wrote about a spiritual resurrection in this chapter in association with baptism. Therefore, the mention of baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15 refers to this truth. Resurrection is the goal and purpose of baptism into Christ’s death.

In Romans Chapter 6, Paul clearly spoke about a non-physical resurrection. When we read through until verse 13, Romans 6 informs us that those baptized into Christ’s death are meant to walk in the resurrection of newness of life, which is the reason we yield ourselves to God as those alive from the dead, afterward.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Therefore, in this instance of 1 Corinthians 15’s reference to baptism for the dead, Paul supported the principle of resurrection from the dead. By having referred to baptism, which is known to bring us into a spiritual resurrection, there are also the words of Jesus that indicate that another form of baptism that is apart from water but, nonetheless, promises a physical resurrection.

Matthew 20:21-23 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. (22) But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Jesus’ reference to baptism in this passage is actually speaking about death. It refers to being killed as a martyr.

Paul wrote about the hope of a resurrection after this life in the Book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

People who became believers in Paul’s day during the heavy persecution of the church did not do so blindly, without having known what dangers they entered. They knew that they risked their lives. Hence, when they got baptized, they really did accept both a spiritual death of the old man, as well as loss of physical life in death because they believed in a physical resurrection. People would not risk their lives by becoming believers in Christ if they weren’t willing to give their lives in death upon their baptisms.

[coksiw]

and the term also referred to the experience of death when a believer is martyred, when he wrote the phrase, “baptized for the dead.”

That's another good explanation, taking into account that what follows to that is a description of persecution.

[mfblume]

Leaping to conclusions and missing a greater and overall point.

We were told these words recently ...

He was buried according to scripture and was resurrected the third day also according to scripture. If God’s spirit didn’t fill that VESSEL it would be nothing! To say the flesh exists today, you’ll have to believe that there are 2 gods, and that all things have not been fulfilled.

The idea here assumes that when Jesus died, the Spirit left the body, as though there is no purpose for God's Spirit to indwell that body any more, since the sacrifice was accomplished. This assumes all that the body was required to accomplish was provide a sinless sacrifice. There is no concept in this view that God will man rule the world in immortality as Adam would have done had he not fallen. Perhaps people think Jesus was only manifest as a human being for two things... provision of a sacrifice as well as be and Adam so that as old Adam caused many to be sinners, then new Adam causes many to be righteous. That is part of it, but still falls short. He is last Adam moreso for the purpose of there being an immortal man ruling over earth, which he shall accomplish after the resurrection. We rule with him now as kings and priests. But this shall continue in a magnified manner after the resurrection.

It also assumes that the body was visibly shown to disciples to show that He did die and fulfilled the purpose of the flesh. But that is simply erroneous. He resurrected to do far more than show anybody he actually died via the presentation of nail wounds and spear wound. That HUMMAN had to enter the holiest of Heaven as high priest and make atonement, where Hebrews 9 says was HEAVEN. And that HUMAN had to sit down and rule over earth as LAST MAN, which the first failed to do.


So, to say that there are two gods after the resurrection if the flesh of Jesus is immortal, because that somehow tells us that all things were not fulfilled, is a huge leap that is illogical and based on nothing in the bible. You have to assume the flesh of Christ will not exist after the sacrifice allegedly has been fulfilled, as though that was all that the body was for, in order to make this secondary assumption that it determines how many gods there are. No where does the bible teach that the death is the fulfilment of the purpose of the incarnation. That is something that has been assumed and made up, but is simply not found in scripture. It sounds good, but it's laid out in scripture.

So, since the bible DOES NOT SAY that after the purpose of the flesh dying on the cross the flesh is not longer needed, therefore, one believes in two gods if one thinks the flesh continues, is simply wild conjecture.

Oneness is not determined by whether or not the flesh has served its purpose. It is determined by how many persons are in the godhead. If God was one while manifested in flesh and at the same time His same singular person filled the universe as the Father, then if the flesh becomes immortal (as it did after the resurrection -- never to die again, according to Romans 6:9) and it is the same person manifested in it as is the Omnipresent SPpirit filling the universe, THAT IS ONENESS.

The fact about whether or the flesh was fulfilled in its purpose HAS NOTHING to do with Oneness. Oneness is not about the PURPOSE of flesh, but Who it is that manifests Himself through that flesh.

So, the basis of what oneness is all about has been compromised by this new-fangled idea that actually is unrelated to what determines oneness.


You can’t separate Jesus (spirit) from the God (spirit) they were one spirit; Gods spirit, the flesh was an instrument that obtained its purpose.

This, again, has nothing to do with manifesting in flesh before the cross or after the cross. God's Spirit and Jesus are one Spirit, and not just in unity. They are absolutely one in every way. That was the case before the cross and after the cross. Flesh had nothing to do with it before the cross or after the cross. Manifesting in flesh after the cross in no way changed that oneness than it did before the cross.

Why does God have to come back again? His word was fulfilled in 70 A.D, Jerusalem (Earth) and the Temple (Heaven) was destroyed for their wickedness. And the prophecy of Jesus came to pass (Matthew 24:34) that they’re we’re indeed some that heard the words of Jesus and saw the destruction and end of the world (age).

1 Cor 15 has not been fulfulled yet, as Paul looked in HIS FUTURE to a resurrection of the very thing that was dead with us.

Paul said it quite plainly.

1 Corinthians 15:35-36.. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? ..(36).. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


Our bodies are the part of us that die as believers, and are, therefore, the part of us that are quickened, or resurrected and made alive again.

This has not happened yet to this day since Paul's day, past AD70 and on to today. And the entire basis for Jesus' resurrection is our resurrection. This informs us that if resurrection for us is of our bodies, and ours is the basis for His, and he would not have risen had it not been for the purpose of seeing us resurrect, then His physical resurrection furthermore establishes the fact that our bodies shall physically rise.

His is the firstfruits of ours, and not in visibility of showcase alone, without being first in numerical sequence in identical manner as His. Firstfruits means first of identicals to follow. His is the prototype, so to speak, of ours.


Third Epistle of John written after 70 A.D destruction (lllJohn 1:2) “....prosper, and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” Instead of looking for a futuristic return of Jesus, we should (I’m not implying you don’t) be encountering church to reach for souls, to drive deeper into the spirit of God, be not yoked with this world, separate yourself with the spirits of this world, etc..

Reaching out for souls to be saved, and seeking a deeper relationship with Jesus is not abrogated just because one believes in a literal physical return of Jesus.


Please understand, I’m only going to say the following from what I have seen, I’m not saying this is everyone. The futuristic message births a spirit of complacency, fear, doubt. People ask me “why are so many leaving the church, young especially” look at what these young people have been fed the past 1-30 years, has it been what Paul declared in (l Corinthians 2:4) “And my speech, and my preaching was not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of Power.” We had enough enticing words, mans wisdom, we need the spirit and power.

This is another grand leap of illogic with no basis in scripture saying that belief in a physical return of Jesus causes one to grow complacent and not reach out to souls, as if it is some infatuation with the physical. Belief in a second coming of Jesus in a physical body is not being carnal or fleshly like this writer assumes so illogically. He makes connects that are illogical and unfounded in scripture, based on what he has "seen" without getting that thought from the Bible itself. It's like he saw carnal believers who are complacent and believe in a literal physical return of Jesus, and did not realize there are carnal believers who are complacent and don't believe in a literal physical return of Jesus.

It's like this writer's whole world of doctrine is based on assumptions he made up in his mind without biblical foundation, and making loose connections that the Word itself never made.

And this false concept of NATURAL being PHYSICAL, missed so easily by not looking at all instances of the use of the term in the rest of the Bible, is a basis for this erring belief.

[mfblume]

That's another good explanation, taking into account that what follows to that is a description of persecution.

Especially when reading the details of the connection between martyrdom and resurrection that this verse made:

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

[mfblume]

Flesh and Spirit are warring against each other, we understand that, the body of God is not a trophy, it was a vessel that’s all, sorry I don’t have scripture for that, you should have enough understand to believe that, our bodies are not trophies, the spirit within us is a trophy. Our spirits in the heavenly realm will not be our bodies on earth, they’re going to be something totally different, the seed looks NOTHING like the plant.

The body is what a part of man actually is. A human being is spirit, soul and body. Sure, they're containers and vessels, but a necessary one since God made humans to have them. And that will continue to eternity future with Christ because God willed for humanity to rule the world and first Adam failed, but God's will never changed from that first plan, and it shall be fulfilled with Christ as the Last man Adam.

It's all about the kingdom, and these folks have never grasped the kingdom aspect of it all.

This is not meant to hold the body as a trophy, but for God to manifest through humanity and rule this world in a more perfect way than He would have done so through Adam. Human spirits in the heavenly realm are not meant to stay in the heavenly realm, but to come back in a resurrection with Christ and rule this earth in immortal bodies. Bodies are our means of influencing the physical universe, and this physical universe is not passing away, as this writer seems to understand in saying heaven and earth passing away speak of the old covenant system and temple passing away. Yet there is no reason why the physical universe will continue in his doctrine.

[mfblume]

More unfounded assumptions...

You through this body are separating one into two, you use (John 8:35), to prove what Jesus the son (human form) abides forever, where is God in the spirit or should I ask what is Jesus in the spirit realm? You quote (lCorinthians 15) as well as I do, but is that for Jesus, or is that for us. Remember, we desire the resurrection, he IS the resurrection (John 11:25). We need a body, you desire that as a sinner desires the Holy Ghost, why do you need this body, because if there is no body, that means.....

Paul spoke of desiring the resurrection because God made us to have immortal bodies, not mortal ones, and to not remain naked outside a body in spirit and soul.

2 Corinthians 5:1-3.. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. ..(2).. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: ..(3).. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

So, yes, we groan to have an immortal body in a resurrection. But, not because it's a fleshly desire. It's very spiritual, for in this mortal body also exists sin, and we are as it were in a lions den when in this body with sin as the lions. And it is a constant fight of faith to ensure sin does not devour us, but that we keep flesh under so sin cannot rise.

2 Corinthians 5:4.. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul said this desire to be clothed with a house not made with hands, but a spiritual physical body that death has no more dominion over it, because this tabernalce/tent of a mortal body is subject to sin and death. THAT is what makes us tormented. A spiritual body empowered by Spirit instead of natural life, like Jesus' body from the tomb, is not indwelt by sin. and the ravages of death like sickness.

And Paul went beyond this being a desire of believers like himself, when he finished off the 15th chapter of 1 Cor. by saying this swallowing up of life is precsiely the purpose of the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:54.. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[mfblume]

Furthermore, if the only purpose of the flesh was to die as a sacrifice for mankind, because animal sacrifices could not cut it, then why have the body resurrect? Why show the disciples that it was not a spirit but genuine flesh and bones, not flesh and blood? Why bother with resurrection at all?

God did not trash his idea to have physical man rule the world. He is a Spirit and the world is not spirit, but is physical. In order to create a universe and work with it, God had to have a man in his image who is both spiritual and physical, and indwell his spirit and manifest through his body and thereby influence the world.

Without indwelling human bodies of believers, there is no point to a physical universe. A trophy???? Hardly! God will manifest through redeemed immortal human beings for forever-future as He intended with Adam who failed. Even dispies who believe in a literal new heaven and earth at least see more to this physical universe than nice skies to look at forever.

[Esaias]

Looking at the topic being defended there, I see that: the point was that if there is not resurrection then several things would lack any sense, those being:

- preaching is vain
- faith is vain
- we are still in our sins (if he didn't raise then, his dead wasn't expiatory, for he simply died like any other man)
- we would be the most miserable (suffering persecution for nothing as he extends in verse 30-32)

In this context, I believe the "dead" here means Christ death and our death in baptism: the whole concept of "death" associated with baptism. I understand that "they" is referring to the same "they that are Christ's" (v 23). What I get in the passage is that Paul is strongly saying: there is no entering into the manifested kingdom of God (future aspect of salvation) without resurrection, and there is no resurrection unless you are baptized into Christ death for the remission of sins, where you also die. If there is not resurrection, then why being baptized into his death? Or more: if Christ didn't raise, how do we have the testimony and sign from God that his death was in fact expiatory for our sins? That was the sign left to the world that this is the real deal; that we should not look anywhere else to be saved.

Paul is definitely making all of this as an inseparable thing: resurrection being a core component in the salvation, there is no entering in heaven without resurrection, and if the dead doesn't raise then, in Paul's mind, everything else we do or preach is nonsense.

Those are my thoughts. So I agree with you, but also I think Paul used a more general phrase for the whole relationship between baptism and dead. There is also a rhetorical component here by the repetition of the word nekros (dead) so many times in the passage (14 times).

That or Paul was just contradicting the "there is no resurrection" people because they used to baptize on behalf of the dead even though they didn't believe in the resurrection (and "they" means those guys). This position needs a lot of historical context to prove that those that believe in no resurrection were in fact also people that practiced baptism on behalf of the dead. I haven't even looked into it.

(29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Paul furthers his argument for a resurrection of the believers by asking people what other purpose would there be for baptism for the dead if believers are not going to resurrect.

Some scholars claim that this is the most difficult verse in the entire New Testament.

Paul referred to the death of Jesus Christ, into which we enter by water baptism, and the term also referred to the experience of death when a believer is martyred, when he wrote the phrase, “baptized for the dead.”

This same apostle explained, in His Epistle to the Romans, that baptism into Jesus Christ’s death causes us to be one of those who rise to walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:3-5 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Water baptism, which I believe Romans 6:3 is clearly speaking about, puts us into the death of Jesus Christ by faith. It’s not baptism only, though, but faith coupled with baptism. It is for the purpose of seeing us rise to walk in newness of life just as Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. Paul clearly wrote about a spiritual resurrection in this chapter in association with baptism. Therefore, the mention of baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15 refers to this truth. Resurrection is the goal and purpose of baptism into Christ’s death.

In Romans Chapter 6, Paul clearly spoke about a non-physical resurrection. When we read through until verse 13, Romans 6 informs us that those baptized into Christ’s death are meant to walk in the resurrection of newness of life, which is the reason we yield ourselves to God as those alive from the dead, afterward.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Therefore, in this instance of 1 Corinthians 15’s reference to baptism for the dead, Paul supported the principle of resurrection from the dead. By having referred to baptism, which is known to bring us into a spiritual resurrection, there are also the words of Jesus that indicate that another form of baptism that is apart from water but, nonetheless, promises a physical resurrection.

Matthew 20:21-23 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. (22) But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Jesus’ reference to baptism in this passage is actually speaking about death. It refers to being killed as a martyr.

Paul wrote about the hope of a resurrection after this life in the Book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

People who became believers in Paul’s day during the heavy persecution of the church did not do so blindly, without having known what dangers they entered. They knew that they risked their lives. Hence, when they got baptized, they really did accept both a spiritual death of the old man, as well as loss of physical life in death because they believed in a physical resurrection. People would not risk their lives by becoming believers in Christ if they weren’t willing to give their lives in death upon their baptisms.

That's another good explanation, taking into account that what follows to that is a description of persecution.

Glad to see I'm not alone in how that passage struck me.

:thumbsup

[Esaias]

Furthermore, if the only purpose of the flesh was to die as a sacrifice for mankind, because animal sacrifices could not cut it, then why have the body resurrect? Why show the disciples that it was not a spirit but genuine flesh and bones, not flesh and blood? Why bother with resurrection at all?

God did not trash his idea to have physical man rule the world. He is a Spirit and the world is not spirit, but is physical. In order to create a universe and work with it, God had to have a man in his image who is both spiritual and physical, and indwell his spirit and manifest through his body and thereby influence the world.

Without indwelling human bodies of believers, there is no point to a physical universe. A trophy???? Hardly! God will manifest through redeemed immortal human beings for forever-future as He intended with Adam who failed. Even dispies who believe in a literal new heaven and earth at least see more to this physical universe than nice skies to look at forever.

It seems that theory that some have cheapens the Lord's existence. "God in a skin-suit" kind of like MTD's logos space-suit idea.

"Why did God incarnate?"

The answer is far more comprehensive than "just to die as a sacrifice." God's truth goes much deeper than the theological kiddie pool some seem content to splash around in. God made man in His own image, it was His intention from the beginning to manifest Himself, to have sons (and daughters) that would be like Him, to bear His likeness and reflect His glory. Adam failed to live up to the high calling, so God showed us Himself how it's done and what it looks like. And in doing so as the Second Adam, succeeding where the first man failed, He reversed the Curse and became our head, whose likeness we are to bear.

He took on Him, not the nature of angels, but the seed of Abraham, a Hebrew, as the archetypal promised seed of which Isaac was a shadow. He is the Son of David, Messiah, king and priest like Melchizedec, anointed ruler of Israel and the Desire of all nations. "God became human so man might become divine" is a true saying.

The sacrificial aspect is but ONE aspect of the depth and height and width of the glorious riches of Redemption and Salvation. His death provides the justification for all that God has planned for His people. It opens the door for us to have access to the promises by which we partake of the divine nature.

To say "the only purpose for God's disposable skin-suit was to die" is just incredibly shallow and seems to me to denigrate the Son of God. Which, according to John, would indicate the spirit of antichrist. Glory goes toward God only inasmuch as it is given to the Son. Any denigration of the Son is in fact a denigration of God. To have the Son is to have God. THIS is what "oneness" is about. THIS is why we are derogatively called "Jesus ONLY". It's all in JESUS CHRIST, it's ALL in HIM.

[mfblume]

It seems that theory that some have cheapens the Lord's existence. "God in a skin-suit" kind of like MTD's logos space-suit idea.

"Why did God incarnate?"

The answer is far more comprehensive than "just to die as a sacrifice." God's truth goes much deeper than the theological kiddie pool some seem content to splash around in. God made man in His own image, it was His intention from the beginning to manifest Himself, to have sons (and daughters) that would be like Him, to bear His likeness and reflect His glory. Adam failed to live up to the high calling, so God showed us Himself how it's done and what it looks like. And in doing so as the Second Adam, succeeding where the first man failed, He reversed the Curse and became our head, whose likeness we are to bear.

He took on Him, not the nature of angels, but the seed of Abraham, a Hebrew, as the archetypal promised seed of which Isaac was a shadow. He is the Son of David, Messiah, king and priest like Melchizedec, anointed ruler of Israel and the Desire of all nations. "God became human so man might become divine" is a true saying.

The sacrificial aspect is but ONE aspect of the depth and height and width of the glorious riches of Redemption and Salvation. His death provides the justification for all that God has planned for His people. It opens the door for us to have access to the promises by which we partake of the divine nature.

To say "the only purpose for God's disposable skin-suit was to die" is just incredibly shallow and seems to me to denigrate the Son of God. Which, according to John, would indicate the spirit of antichrist. Glory goes toward God only inasmuch as it is given to the Son. Any denigration of the Son is in fact a denigration of God. To have the Son is to have God. THIS is what "oneness" is about. THIS is why we are derogatively called "Jesus ONLY". It's all in JESUS CHRIST, it's ALL in HIM.

Slam-dunk!

[coksiw]

Esaias,
Another important information that it is missing in the English translations is that “dead” in the “baptized for the dead” is actually plural, so it can’t refer to Christ’s death alone.

[votivesoul]

I think you are making an unwarranted leap here. The context shows "the days of His flesh" is referring to the time in the Garden prior to His arrest. In any event, in the days of His flesh does not require He has days with no flesh. It means rather when He lived as a mortal man, subject to the limitations of "flesh". Flesh as used in Scripture doesn't solely mean physical body. It rather is a generic term for human beings. "The God of all flesh" doesn't mean the God of all physical bodies, it means the God of all mankind.

Since we know he had a material body after His resurrection, since Paul said the body is resurrected as a spiritual body, and since the Bible says absolutely nothing about a change in His nature AFTER He resurrected, we can conclude that "in the days of His flesh" doesn't mean He now no longer has a personal body.

And furthermore, if in the days of His flesh requires He had days without flesh, those days without flesh need not be after His resurrection or ascension, but could very well be the days BEFORE His incarnation. Thus, His prayers occurred AFTER He incarnated, and not before, thus this passage is actually yet another blow to trinitarianism and binitarianism.

In any event, there is nothing in Scripture that says Jesus has no personal body, nor are there any passages that require that to be so, and there are numerous passages which DO require Him to still be human with a body.

I do not think the "leap" as it were, is unwarranted. Here is how:

Referring back to my comments regarding 1 Corinthians 15:45, wherein we are informed that, while the first Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. You will note that in the KJV, "was made" in the second clause is in italics. This is because in Greek, the verb is not repeated twice; rather it is twice applied, first to the first Adam, then to the last Adam.

You can see it clearly here:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-45.htm

Also at the link, you can see that the verb translated as "was made" in the first clause is egeneto, from ginomai.

This is very important to note, because it's the same verb in the same grammatical case as used by John in John 1:14 regarding how the "Word was made flesh".

See here: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-14.htm

So then, the Logos was made flesh according to John. This occurred at the Incarnation inside Mary's womb. From that moment forward, Christ was living in the "days of His flesh" from Hebrews 5:7.

But sometime after His death, burial, and resurrection, and I would argue, ascension, this last Adam (and note the name Adam is from Hebrew and simply means "human"; see here: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/120.htm) "was made" a quickening spirit.

It was a transition, first, from spirit as Logos to flesh, then as Logos as flesh, to spirit.

If we genuinely believe the Logos was made into a true, physical, human man, then it stands to good reason that this true, physical, human man, was likewise made into a quickening spirit.

And spirits do not have flesh and bone, per the Lord Jesus in Luke 24:39.

Seems like case closed, to me.

[mfblume]

My book on this issue is now in ebook form...

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41I7c-gLT1L.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/What-Body-They-Come-Resurrection-ebook/dp/B081CF3KXJ

[Esaias]

I do not think the "leap" as it were, is unwarranted. Here is how:

Referring back to my comments regarding 1 Corinthians 15:45, wherein we are informed that, while the first Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. You will note that in the KJV, "was made" in the second clause is in italics. This is because in Greek, the verb is not repeated twice; rather it is twice applied, first to the first Adam, then to the last Adam.

You can see it clearly here:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-45.htm

Also at the link, you can see that the verb translated as "was made" in the first clause is egeneto, from ginomai.

This is very important to note, because it's the same verb in the same grammatical case as used by John in John 1:14 regarding how the "Word was made flesh".

See here: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-14.htm

So then, the Logos was made flesh according to John. This occurred at the Incarnation inside Mary's womb. From that moment forward, Christ was living in the "days of His flesh" from Hebrews 5:7.

But sometime after His death, burial, and resurrection, and I would argue, ascension, this last Adam (and note the name Adam is from Hebrew and simply means "human"; see here: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/120.htm) "was made" a quickening spirit.

It was a transition, first, from spirit as Logos to flesh, then as Logos as flesh, to spirit.

If we genuinely believe the Logos was made into a true, physical, human man, then it stands to good reason that this true, physical, human man, was likewise made into a quickening spirit.

And spirits do not have flesh and bone, per the Lord Jesus in Luke 24:39.

Seems like case closed, to me.

The quickening Spirit is the Holy Ghost. "Now, the Lord is that Spirit" etc. So Jesus is the Holy Ghost.

Does this mean He is not a human? No, He is a human.

"He maketh His angels SPIRITS..." So angels are spirits. Yet they are not omnipresent and finite, therefore they have bodies of some kind. They are spirits, yet have bodies. Jesus is a quickening (life giving) Spirit, yet He has a body. When He incarnated, did He CEASE to be the Word?

I do not understand "and the Word was made/became lesh" to mean a transformation FROM one essence to another, as if the Word was transformed into something else ceasing to be what it was. Rather, the Word took on a complete human nature, adding it to His own pre-incarnate nature. Likewise, the Man, in being made a life giving spirit, does not cease to be a man.

As for the days of His flesh, I don't see any reason to think that is an ontological statement about His flesh, but rather an idiom referring His pre-glorification existence. And as I pointed out, if "days of His flesh" implies He has "days without flesh", there is nothing that disallows those non flesh days being PRE incarnation or which requires them to be post ascension.

[Esaias]

Esaias,
Another important information that it is missing in the English translations is that “dead” in the “baptized for the dead” is actually plural, so it can’t refer to Christ’s death alone.

Ah, interesting. It could be then that "the dead" refers to the whole category of "the dead", so that baptism "for the dead" indicates getting baptised to take your place among all the dead (clearly with a view towards resurrection). "Firstbegotten of the dead" means firstbegotten from the ranks of all the dead. So "the dead" in our verse would likely mean "all that have died". Paul asks what's the point of baptism if the dead do not rise.

On further thought, he seems to be saying "if the dead do not rise, then you were baptised for the dead, NOT THE LIVING/RESURRECTED, and therefore what's the benefit? Where's the hope?" etc. I dont have my Greek handy at the moment, I wonder what the word "for" is in Greek in this verse?

[mfblume]

The quickening Spirit is the Holy Ghost. "Now, the Lord is that Spirit" etc. So Jesus is the Holy Ghost.

Does this mean He is not a human? No, He is a human.

"He maketh His angels SPIRITS..." So angels are spirits. Yet they are not omnipresent and finite, therefore they have bodies of some kind. They are spirits, yet have bodies. Jesus is a quickening (life giving) Spirit, yet He has a body. When He incarnated, did He CEASE to be the Word?

I do not understand "and the Word was made/became lesh" to mean a transformation FROM one essence to another, as if the Word was transformed into something else ceasing to be what it was. Rather, the Word took on a complete human nature, adding it to His own pre-incarnate nature. Likewise, the Man, in being made a life giving spirit, does not cease to be a man.

As for the days of His flesh, I don't see any reason to think that is an ontological statement about His flesh, but rather an idiom referring His pre-glorification existence. And as I pointed out, if "days of His flesh" implies He has "days without flesh", there is nothing that disallows those non flesh days being PRE incarnation or which requires them to be post ascension.
Amen.


When John said the word became flesh, he added the qualifier, and dwelt among us, which means tabernacled. So, it did not turn into flesh, but was in a Tabernacle. That's why he called his body a temple shortly after in the same book.