View Full Version : The gospel of Matthew
Amanah
10-29-2019, 08:38 AM
According to Professor Thomas F. X. Noble University of Notre Dame:
The Gospels were written between the 60s and the 80s, perhaps even the early 90s. Mark is the first Gospel, circa 65, but Papias said in the 2nd century, “Matthew wrote the oracles in Hebrew.” No such text survives, but it is possible that Matthew prepared an Aramaic book of some kind, then revised it, in Greek, in line with Mark’s narration
from one of his lectures:
Jesus and the New Testament Lecture 23
One of the things that began to happen in the 2nd century, in what we call the post-apostolic age, and what we may also think of as the postbiblical age, is that a group of Christian writers, whom we call the apologists, began explaining their new faith to the ancient world. In the long run, the most momentous development of the Pax Romana was the emergence of a new religious faith that would eventually sweep the Roman world before it. This is not a phenomenon that contemporaries expected or that seems so obvious in prospect as it does in retrospect.
Christians were a tiny sect in a small, backward, unimportant province. The Mediterranean world was rich in mythical, religious, and philosophical experience. It would not have been easy for any newcomer to make its way. The cults of the Roman world were not casual, not parts of people’s private sphere. Religion constituted ta patria, one’s paternal inheritance. The calendar, basic events of life, public buildings, literary culture, and so on were all deeply marked by religion.
In the second place, from a strictly historical point of view, our sources are late and limited in what they tell us. The oldest written materials are the Pauline and Catholic Epistles that date from 49 to 62. These represent a first attempt to begin to systematize teaching and to create an official version of the past. They give evidence of controversy.
The Gospels were written between the 60s and the 80s, perhaps even the early 90s. Mark is the first Gospel, circa 65, but Papias said in the 2nd century, “Matthew wrote the oracles in Hebrew.” No such text survives, but it is possible that Matthew prepared an Aramaic book of some kind, then revised it, in Greek, in line with Mark’s narration.
The Foundations of Western Civilization
Professor Thomas F. X. Noble University of Notre Dame
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Amanah
10-29-2019, 08:58 AM
more on the subject:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm
Home > Fathers of the Church > Church History (Eusebius)
Chapter 8. The Statements of Irenæus in regard to the Divine Scriptures.
1. Since, in the beginning of this work, we promised to give, when needful, the words of the ancient presbyters and writers of the Church, in which they have declared those traditions which came down to them concerning the canonical books, and since Irenæus was one of them, we will now give his words and, first, what he says of the sacred Gospels:
2. Matthew published his Gospel among the Hebrews in their own language, while Peter and Paul were preaching and founding the church in Rome.
3. After their departure Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, also transmitted to us in writing those things which Peter had preached; and Luke, the attendant of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel which Paul had declared.
4. Afterwards John, the disciple of the Lord, who also reclined on his bosom, published his Gospel, while staying at Ephesus in Asia.
Evang.Benincasa
10-29-2019, 11:46 AM
According to Professor Thomas F. X. Noble University of Notre Dame:
from one of his lectures:
The Foundations of Western Civilization
Professor Thomas F. X. Noble University of Notre Dame
PUBLISHED BY:
THE GREAT COURSES Corporate Headquarters 4840 Westfields Boulevard
Suite 500 Chantilly, Virginia 20151-2299
Phone: 1-800-832-2412 Fax: 703-378-3819
www.thegreatcourses.com
Copyright © The Teaching Company, 2002
The whole Hebrew Matthew is refuted with “upon this rock” which only works in Greek. As for Papias he was obviously incorrect.
Evang.Benincasa
10-29-2019, 12:02 PM
Sister, we discussed all these so called quotes in FZwords’ anti-Matthew 28:19 threads. What’s your opinion on this? My thoughts are that some take like Papias and Esubius like they were Apostles. Josephus is quoted on the same level but Josephus has some major issues trying to accurately relay his own religion, let alone current events. Let me ask you this? How many different versions do we have for what happened during the attack on the Twin Towers 9/11? Bin Laden died how many times? How will history record George Bush, Bill Clinton, or Donald Trump? It would be safe to say that if NDavid recorded Donald Trump’s presidency it would be vastly different from how Scott Pita wound record it. Therefore ancient historians need to be examined a bit closer. A all Hebrew Matthew which has the missionary call in Matthew 28:20 would hardly be used to evangelize the whole known world which spoke Greek.
Esaias
10-29-2019, 12:09 PM
I think Matthew may have written an Aramaic "Sayings of Jesus" which has been lost. That is not the Gospel of Matthew, though. His Gospel was written in Greek. Much research has been done showing Matthew relies in part on Mark and relates to Luke's Gospel. The Raiders of the Lost Matthew are on a goose chase.
Evang.Benincasa
10-29-2019, 12:16 PM
I think Matthew may have written an Aramaic "Sayings of Jesus" which has been lost. That is not the Gospel of Matthew, though. His Gospel was written in Greek. Much research has been done showing Matthew relies in part on Mark and relates to Luke's Gospel. The Raiders of the Lost Matthew are on a goose chase.
:thumbsup :highfive
Amanah
10-29-2019, 01:57 PM
Bro Benincasa, I'm watching this professor's lectures via a teaching company app, and posted this quote to get clarification from my Apostolic brethren, who are specialists on the subject. The professor is an historian, with a broad, generalist perspective.
The course is a series of 48 lectures on Western Civ I.
Amanah
10-29-2019, 02:40 PM
I think Matthew may have written an Aramaic "Sayings of Jesus" which has been lost. That is not the Gospel of Matthew, though. His Gospel was written in Greek. Much research has been done showing Matthew relies in part on Mark and relates to Luke's Gospel. The Raiders of the Lost Matthew are on a goose chase.
This would explain the historical reference.
Evang.Benincasa
10-29-2019, 03:10 PM
Bro Benincasa, I'm watching this professor's lectures via a teaching company app, and posted this quote to get clarification from my Apostolic brethren, who are specialists on the subject. The professor is an historian, with a broad, generalist perspective.
The course is a series of 48 lectures on Western Civ I.
I understand, and appreciate you would seek clarification. Yet, what are your thoughts concerning what you heard in the lecture? Also, What was the professor’s name?
Amanah
10-29-2019, 06:03 PM
I understand, and appreciate you would seek clarification. Yet, what are your thoughts concerning what you heard in the lecture? Also, What was the professor’s name?
Prof Noble teaches that Matthew and Luke are derived from Mark, differing by the addition of a source called Q, which are the sayings of Jesus:
Mark + Q= Matthew
Mark + Q= Luke
So, he is claiming that Matthew and Luke are derivative rather than first person accounts written by inspiration, which is blasphemy.
But, my question was about the possibility of Matthew having been penned in Hebrew or Aramaic before being translated into Greek, to which you and Esaias responded no.
votivesoul
10-29-2019, 06:41 PM
Clement of Rome wrote an Epistle in which he discussed the existence of a supernatural bird called a "phoenix" he claimed lived in Arabia.
See here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html
Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.
This man, having never seen such a thing, nevertheless, believed it existed. Papias and others, having never seen a Hebrew or Aramaic Gospel of Matthew, nevertheless, believed such a thing existed.
But the evidence for either an Arabian phoenix or an Aramaic/Hebrew Matthew are identical, that is: None.
Evang.Benincasa
10-29-2019, 07:06 PM
Clement of Rome wrote an Epistle in which he discussed the existence of a supernatural bird called a "phoenix" he claimed lived in Arabia.
See here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html
This man, having never seen such a thing, nevertheless, believed it existed. Papias and others, having never seen a Hebrew or Aramaic Gospel of Matthew, nevertheless, believed such a thing existed.
But the evidence for either an Arabian phoenix or an Aramaic/Hebrew Matthew are identical, that is: None.
Wow, your Kung Fu is very good!!!!! :highfive :thumbsup
https://media1.giphy.com/media/JeqK1dXmDOgXm/giphy.gif
Esaias
10-29-2019, 07:32 PM
Prof Noble teaches that Matthew and Luke are derived from Mark, differing by the addition of a source called Q, which are the sayings of Jesus:
Mark + Q= Matthew
Mark + Q= Luke
So, he is claiming that Matthew and Luke are derivative rather than first person accounts written by inspiration, which is blasphemy.
But, my question was about the possibility of Matthew having been penned in Hebrew or Aramaic before being translated into Greek, to which you and Esaias responded no.
I don't buy the Q theory. Tradition says Matthew wrote first, critical theorists claim Mark was first. I think there is some weight to tradition, but since we have no Bible that tells us which came first, I don't sweat it.
But as for a Hebrew version of Matthew, it wouldn't matter because it wasn't preserved by Providence. God preserved the apostolic writings in Greek, not Aramaic or Hebrew.
Steven Avery
10-30-2019, 06:01 PM
According to Professor Thomas F. X. Noble University of Notre Dame:
The Gospels were written between the 60s and the 80s, perhaps even the early 90s. Mark is the first Gospel, circa 65 ...GIGO.
All the synoptic Gospels were almost surely written in the 40s. Luke wrote to the high priest Theophilus, when he was the "most excellent" high priest.
Late dating (especially after 70 to negate the Temple prophecies) is a sickness of modern unbelieving, liberal and skeptic pseudo-scholarship.
Generally, what Esaias says above is accurate.
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