Thoughts on what brings God's blessings

[mfblume]

We've all heard the concept that when we do things that please the Lord, He sends HIs blessings.

However, does the bible teach that?

Am I missing something?

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Faith in God’s works, not our own works, is what brings us the blessings. We are in Christ by faith. We were baptized into Him when we were saved from sin by trust in His work on the cross as the only means by which anyone can be righteous enough to stand before God. The moment we were saved, before we did one good deed, we were as holy as Jesus Christ, for He gave us His holiness. He gave us His righteousness! In fact, He was made righteousness for our sakes!

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Having been positioned in Christ, we have everything we need to be counted righteous before God!

Colossians 2:7-10 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. (8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

We need to be so rooted in Him that nobody can convince us that we need to do or not do a particular act in order for God to consider us holy and righteous. God did the work to make us righteous when Christ died, was buried and rose from the dead! That death and resurrection was the grounds Christ stood on in order to enter Heaven and make atonement for us as the High Priest took sacrificial blood and brought it into the Most Holy Place.

Paul said we are complete in Christ. You cannot add to the accomplishment that God provided in being made righteous before God, so get rooted in Him based upon that truth so much so that nobody can pull you out. The way in which people can steal or spoil you from being in Christ is to convince you that you need more than the work of the cross to be in right standing before God.

Paul wrote that he sought to see the Colossians so rooted perfectly in Him, looking to nothing other than the work of Christ on the cross to justify them before God, that when they stand before God they would be firm in that foundation.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

God reconciled us to Himself by the work of Christ.

Colossians 1:21-23 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled (22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: (23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

By having been put in the body of Christ through baptism into His death, that and that alone is how we can stand holy before God without any worry of requiring reproof or blame. And if that is what it takes to stand before God, then we must remain in that place and not allow any other contrary thought to remove us from that place. The moment that we think that we must do something to cause God to consider us holy, in addition to what God did in His work of the cross, is the moment we have been stolen and spoiled from that safe haven of having been placed in Christ.

The fulness of the Godhead is in Christ, and that means everything any9body will ever need from God is at our dis-posal simply by being in Christ! For that reason, Paul said that there are treasures that hidden in Him, that cannot be known by those who are not in Him.
Colossians 2:2-3 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; (3) In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

So, do not leave this treasure trove of Christ! Do not allow yourself to be removed by thinking that Christ’s work on the cross plus a good deed makes you acceptable to God and worthy of blessings.

Being in Christ alone makes us unreproveable in His sight.

Now, this does not mean we can sin and not lose bless-ings. God put us in a place of blessings by placing us in Christ. Those who rely completely on that work of the cross for our salvation are firmly in Christ. Committing sin brings danger to that, and is cause for the need to seek forgiveness. He’s faithful and just to forgive us if we confess and pray for it! But nothing we do can earn blessings. He did the work to earn the blessings, but we can see those blessings fly away by committing sin.

This is an important distinction that many people over-look and miss. We cannot earn salvation by works of righteousness, but we can keep salvation by not sinning. That in no way means that doing good deeds earns salvation. We have it already without having done a good deed. If we never did a good deed, we would still be saved. But if we do sinful deeds, they will jeopardize our standing in God and we actually remove ourselves from grade. Picture it as though God placed us on a high peak, but committing sin causes us to fall, and only God can bring us back up through our request and repentance. We can cause ourselves to fall, but we cannot pick ourselves back up.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We can cause ourselves to be separated from the love of God. Nothing outside of ourselves can do this. Paul outlined everything that is unable to separate us from God’s love except ourselves in the passage above.

Only Christ’s good work earns our salvation, and anything that we do cannot gain it, but it can lose it.

Therefore, when we think that doing a good deed causes God to bless us, then we are thinking that we can add to the work of God to see blessings come our way.

Now, answers to prayer can come when we take steps of faith and believe God. Jesus told us to believe after we pray, and don’t doubt, and whatever we pray for will come to pass. But these are not blessings! They are answers to faithful prayer.

God is pleased when we obey Him. But the blessings that come our way are not the result of obeying God. The blessings are the result of Christ’s work moving God to be pleased with us. Do a word search in the New Testament using the words bless, blessing and blessings. You will not find that an obedient act that you do will bring God’s blessing. Only the work of Christ caused the blessings of God to come upon us.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If we are already blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, what other blessings can there be? By being in Christ we have it all! Thus, we are complete in Him!
Are there things that we can do to earn God’s pleasure?


Isaiah 53:10-11 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

By Christ having borne our sins and iniquities, God was made to look on us and be satisfied that we were reconciled to Him. It’s not though anything that we can do that accomplishes this. Our only means of pleasing God is through Christ’s work of taking our sins upon Himself and dying for them. We do not read that God looks at a good deed that we perform and is satisfied. He shall see of the travail of Christ’s soul and shall be satisfied.

Am I missing something?

[Amanah]

what about the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy 28 ?

[mfblume]

what about the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy 28 ?

One could say that's under law. I'm talking about New Covenant blessings. in light of Eph 1:3. Does grace make a difference? Or does God bless us for things we do for Him? It seems if we're blessed with all spiritual blessings already, what else could he bless us for? That's where I am coming from.

[Amanah]

New covenant blessings are dependent upon walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, Galatians 5

[Truthseeker]

I look at it like this, that there is a difference between our position (identity) and our fruit(works). You can be seated with Christ but not reigning in him in this life or through him in your walk. So we are blessed in him but if we are walking in disobedience it will not come to fruitation in our lives. Just frustration.

The million dollar question is does our sins cancel our place in him?

More later....

[Nicodemus1968]

I’m trying to understand what your relaying to us. I believe your saying that, there’s nothing we can do that will add blessings to our lives in Christ.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Through obedience to the word of God, will add blessings to our life in him. Will have all things pertaining to the previous verses if we seek first the kingdom. If we do the will of God then well enter into heaven and will be called his brother, and mother. I believe prayer is a work, fasting is a work, being baptized is a work, a lot of what Jesus taught us as well as Paul, how were to keep sanctified are works. They’re not our works of our righteousness, but the works of God, through our obedience to him he blesses us. We need to chose to follow him, he
will not make us follow him, we have to chose to follow him and as a reward he blesses us.

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Despite popular belief, faith does not save you being alone. You need to add works to your faith. If faith is not exercised is no good. Again, were not saved through works of righteousness that we have done. Yet, after were saved we exercise our faith through discipline and obedience to the word of God, and as God sees that he blesses us, the scripture relates him to a earthly father...

Matthew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Let’s not forget...

Psalm 37:4-5
Delight thyself also in the Lord ; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Commit thy way unto the Lord ; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

I relate this relationship in Jesus as a relationship between a man and his wife.
My wife has access to all my business and personal accounts, all I have is hers. Yet, it didn’t start off that way, it took time to get to that point! Same in the spiritual realm, as you grow, the blessings grow. Remain faithful to God and he’ll be faithful to you.

We should understand that we were never good enough, we need Jesus! This is my simple child like faith, as I please my husband (Jesus) hell bless me. Just like when my wife pleases me, man I love to do stuff for her.

[Esaias]

We've all heard the concept that when we do things that please the Lord, He sends HIs blessings.

However, does the bible teach that?

Am I missing something?

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Faith in God’s works, not our own works, is what brings us the blessings. We are in Christ by faith. We were baptized into Him when we were saved from sin by trust in His work on the cross as the only means by which anyone can be righteous enough to stand before God. The moment we were saved, before we did one good deed, we were as holy as Jesus Christ, for He gave us His holiness. He gave us His righteousness! In fact, He was made righteousness for our sakes!

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Having been positioned in Christ, we have everything we need to be counted righteous before God!

Colossians 2:7-10 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. (8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

We need to be so rooted in Him that nobody can convince us that we need to do or not do a particular act in order for God to consider us holy and righteous. God did the work to make us righteous when Christ died, was buried and rose from the dead! That death and resurrection was the grounds Christ stood on in order to enter Heaven and make atonement for us as the High Priest took sacrificial blood and brought it into the Most Holy Place.

Paul said we are complete in Christ. You cannot add to the accomplishment that God provided in being made righteous before God, so get rooted in Him based upon that truth so much so that nobody can pull you out. The way in which people can steal or spoil you from being in Christ is to convince you that you need more than the work of the cross to be in right standing before God.

Paul wrote that he sought to see the Colossians so rooted perfectly in Him, looking to nothing other than the work of Christ on the cross to justify them before God, that when they stand before God they would be firm in that foundation.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

God reconciled us to Himself by the work of Christ.

Colossians 1:21-23 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled (22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: (23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

By having been put in the body of Christ through baptism into His death, that and that alone is how we can stand holy before God without any worry of requiring reproof or blame. And if that is what it takes to stand before God, then we must remain in that place and not allow any other contrary thought to remove us from that place. The moment that we think that we must do something to cause God to consider us holy, in addition to what God did in His work of the cross, is the moment we have been stolen and spoiled from that safe haven of having been placed in Christ.

The fulness of the Godhead is in Christ, and that means everything any9body will ever need from God is at our dis-posal simply by being in Christ! For that reason, Paul said that there are treasures that hidden in Him, that cannot be known by those who are not in Him.
Colossians 2:2-3 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; (3) In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

So, do not leave this treasure trove of Christ! Do not allow yourself to be removed by thinking that Christ’s work on the cross plus a good deed makes you acceptable to God and worthy of blessings.

Being in Christ alone makes us unreproveable in His sight.

Now, this does not mean we can sin and not lose bless-ings. God put us in a place of blessings by placing us in Christ. Those who rely completely on that work of the cross for our salvation are firmly in Christ. Committing sin brings danger to that, and is cause for the need to seek forgiveness. He’s faithful and just to forgive us if we confess and pray for it! But nothing we do can earn blessings. He did the work to earn the blessings, but we can see those blessings fly away by committing sin.

This is an important distinction that many people over-look and miss. We cannot earn salvation by works of righteousness, but we can keep salvation by not sinning. That in no way means that doing good deeds earns salvation. We have it already without having done a good deed. If we never did a good deed, we would still be saved. But if we do sinful deeds, they will jeopardize our standing in God and we actually remove ourselves from grade. Picture it as though God placed us on a high peak, but committing sin causes us to fall, and only God can bring us back up through our request and repentance. We can cause ourselves to fall, but we cannot pick ourselves back up.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We can cause ourselves to be separated from the love of God. Nothing outside of ourselves can do this. Paul outlined everything that is unable to separate us from God’s love except ourselves in the passage above.

Only Christ’s good work earns our salvation, and anything that we do cannot gain it, but it can lose it.

Therefore, when we think that doing a good deed causes God to bless us, then we are thinking that we can add to the work of God to see blessings come our way.

Now, answers to prayer can come when we take steps of faith and believe God. Jesus told us to believe after we pray, and don’t doubt, and whatever we pray for will come to pass. But these are not blessings! They are answers to faithful prayer.

God is pleased when we obey Him. But the blessings that come our way are not the result of obeying God. The blessings are the result of Christ’s work moving God to be pleased with us. Do a word search in the New Testament using the words bless, blessing and blessings. You will not find that an obedient act that you do will bring God’s blessing. Only the work of Christ caused the blessings of God to come upon us.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If we are already blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, what other blessings can there be? By being in Christ we have it all! Thus, we are complete in Him!
Are there things that we can do to earn God’s pleasure?


Isaiah 53:10-11 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

By Christ having borne our sins and iniquities, God was made to look on us and be satisfied that we were reconciled to Him. It’s not though anything that we can do that accomplishes this. Our only means of pleasing God is through Christ’s work of taking our sins upon Himself and dying for them. We do not read that God looks at a good deed that we perform and is satisfied. He shall see of the travail of Christ’s soul and shall be satisfied.

Am I missing something?

I would say that, human nature being what is, your presentation will most likely be misconstrued to result in an application you would oppose. So perhaps a different, more precise, way of explaining these things might be less fraught with misinterpretation?

The last thing this generation needs to hear is anything they can twist into a "stop doing and trying" outlook. It might be more timely for them to hear things like "Here's how we know that we know Him: when we keep His commandments."

As for blessings, a blessing is anything positive, anything that adds value, any kind of benefit. All blessings are in Christ, but who is in Christ? Not those who just claim to be in Him, but those who actually are in Him. And that is demonstrated or evidenced by obedience, among other things.

I do believe there are "blessings" that result from certain actions we take. The farmer who doesn't till and sow doesn't get blessed with a crop, Christian or not.

[Barb]

One could say that's under law. I'm talking about New Covenant blessings. in light of Eph 1:3. Does grace make a difference? Or does God bless us for things we do for Him? It seems if we're blessed with all spiritual blessings already, what else could he bless us for? That's where I am coming from.


I am blessed because God’s Word said I am blessed. For example, I don’t have to ask God to bless my finances because He already said, “Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again” (Luke 6:38).

So I never ask, I just thank/praise God for honoring His Word in blessing my finances because I honor His Word in obeying it. When I hearken diligently unto His Word He blesses my going out and coming in… He blesses my storehouse. I don’t pay my tithes, I return unto the Lord a tithe because it is His due, and because I have seen the benefit of God opening the windows of heaven.

God’s blessings follow my obedience because God cannot go back on His Word. They follow me. They overtake me. It is not a works based give and take... you do for me and I do for you. Rather it is love based. Because I love the Lord, I obey His Word. and because He loves me, He honors His Word, and I am blessed.

And in this, I consider Deuteronomy 28 to be as applicable to my life as much as any NT rendering… just my opinion, Elder…

[mfblume]

I am blessed because God’s Word said I am blessed. For example, I don’t have to ask God to bless my finances because He already said, “Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again” (Luke 6:38).

So I never ask, I just thank/praise God for honoring His Word in blessing my finances because I honor His Word in obeying it. When I hearken diligently unto His Word He blesses my going out and coming in… He blesses my storehouse. I don’t pay my tithes, I return unto the Lord a tithe because it is His due, and because I have seen the benefit of God opening the windows of heaven.

God’s blessings follow my obedience because God cannot go back on His Word. They follow me. They overtake me. It is not a works based give and take... you do for me and I do for you. Rather it is love based. Because I love the Lord, I obey His Word. and because He loves me, He honors His Word, and I am blessed.

And in this, I consider Deuteronomy 28 to be as applicable to my life as much as any NT rendering… just my opinion, Elder…

That's what I'm after.. opinions.

I do nto beleve that what we do affords blessings in the new covenant. Eph 1:3-4 seems to say that we already have all we can get by being in Christ, which is what Col 2 seems to say when it reads we are compelte in him.

[Esaias]

That's what I'm after.. opinions.

I do nto beleve that what we do affords blessings in the new covenant. Eph 1:3-4 seems to say that we already have all we can get by being in Christ, which is what Col 2 seems to say when it reads we are compelte in him.

All my money is in the bank.

But I still got to write and sign the checks.

[Esaias]

How does James 1:25 fit in?

[Esaias]

Rev 1:3?
Rev 16:15?
Rev 22:7?
Rev 22:14?

[Truthseeker]

If Jesus put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, as it says in the book of Hebrew, is there anything that bring it back?

[Esaias]

If Jesus put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, as it says in the book of Hebrew, is there anything that bring it back?

Putting away sin usually refers to the expiatory atonement for the nation as a whole. Such atonement was never applicable to the individual presumptuous sinner. Israel and Judah were judicially guilty of sin, not merely as individuals, but nationally and corporately. All heathens were likewise, if for no other reason than the fact they were outside the covenant and thus had no covering. Jesus came on the scene to provide that covering. Individually we benefit from that covering as we are appropriated into the Covered Nation (via the new covenant).

Those under the law had a covering applied every year on the Day of Atonement. But the presumptuous Israelite bore his own iniquity - no covering for him or her. We have a covering under the new covenant, effected once at Calvary and efficacious through all eternity. But it will do you no good if you throw it off, you are no longer covered.

Moreover, Calvary has a power, a dunamis, an ABILITY to actually cause sinners to stop sinning by the grace of God - something the law could not do. Christ can not only judicially put away a man's sin, He can literally do it by the Holy Ghost sanctifying the one who believes and receives. But sanctification isn't a mere event, but a present ongoing reality lived by faith. Thus, it is possible to fall from grace.

[Esaias]

That's what I'm after.. opinions.

I do nto beleve that what we do affords blessings in the new covenant. Eph 1:3-4 seems to say that we already have all we can get by being in Christ, which is what Col 2 seems to say when it reads we are compelte in him.

We have a tabernacle... reserved in heaven...

Yet, we have to run the race and win the crown. If by any means I may attain the resurrection... not as though I had already attained... etc.

So God blessing us with all spiritual blessings in Christ means simply all our blessings come through Christ. We have them because we are in Christ, that is they cannot be had outside of Christ. We have been given eternal life, but we have to overcome to inherit it.

So we have everything, in potential. The actual enjoyment of these things is predicated on certain things, including our actions. Ye have not because ye ask not. Thus, asking is an action we do that results in receiving. Having is not automatic due to being in Christ.

[Truthseeker]

Putting away sin usually refers to the expiatory atonement for the nation as a whole. Such atonement was never applicable to the individual presumptuous sinner. Israel and Judah were judicially guilty of sin, not merely as individuals, but nationally and corporately. All heathens were likewise, if for no other reason than the fact they were outside the covenant and thus had no covering. Jesus came on the scene to provide that covering. Individually we benefit from that covering as we are appropriated into the Covered Nation (via the new covenant).

Those under the law had a covering applied every year on the Day of Atonement. But the presumptuous Israelite bore his own iniquity - no covering for him or her. We have a covering under the new covenant, effected once at Calvary and efficacious through all eternity. But it will do you no good if you throw it off, you are no longer covered.

Moreover, Calvary has a power, a dunamis, an ABILITY to actually cause sinners to stop sinning by the grace of God - something the law could not do. Christ can not only judicially put away a man's sin, He can literally do it by the Holy Ghost sanctifying the one who believes and receives. But sanctification isn't a mere event, but a present ongoing reality lived by faith. Thus, it is possible to fall from grace.

How does one throw off the "putting away sin" that Christ accomplished? Stop believing?

[Truthseeker]

So as a whole(church) our sin has been put away but individually it hasn't? Are saying a member in sin is uncovered? The sin that was put away on the cross came back?

[Esaias]

How does one throw off the "putting away sin" that Christ accomplished? Stop believing?

By sinning. By ceasing to believe. By ceasing to obey. All essentially synonymous in the Bible.

An umbrella is like a covering. Keeps the rain off... unless you toss it aside or run out from underneath it. Then you get wet.

[Esaias]

So as a whole(church) our sin has been put away but individually it hasn't? Are saying a member in sin is uncovered? The sin that was put away on the cross came back?

Put away isn't about location but status. Sin isn't an object, it's an action and a legal classification or status or condition.

Israel's corporate sin has been put away. All who have been grafted in via the new covenant likewise have their sins washed away. But if one sins, or apostasizes, or falls from grace, etc, they reject the atonement and bear their own sin.

[mfblume]

All my money is in the bank.

But I still got to write and sign the checks.

That is not the same thing as putting the money in the bank, though. It's like Acts 2:38. It's not a work for salvation, but simply applying Christ's work that saves to us. We access all the blessings afforded by the cross through obedience, but the obedience does not afford them. Jesus earned them all. It's a question of earning blessings.

[mfblume]

We have a tabernacle... reserved in heaven...

Yet, we have to run the race and win the crown. If by any means I may attain the resurrection... not as though I had already attained... etc.

So God blessing us with all spiritual blessings in Christ means simply all our blessings come through Christ. We have them because we are in Christ, that is they cannot be had outside of Christ. We have been given eternal life, but we have to overcome to inherit it.

So we have everything, in potential. The actual enjoyment of these things is predicated on certain things, including our actions. Ye have not because ye ask not. Thus, asking is an action we do that results in receiving. Having is not automatic due to being in Christ.

Treasures are hidden in Christ. We have to dig for them. But he earned them, and earning them is what I am asking about.

[Truthseeker]

Put away isn't about location but status. Sin isn't an object, it's an action and a legal classification or status or condition.

Israel's corporate sin has been put away. All who have been grafted in via the new covenant likewise have their sins washed away. But if one sins, or apostasizes, or falls from grace, etc, they reject the atonement and bear their own sin.


Does one have to get to a place of sinless perfection to make it in?

[mfblume]

How does James 1:25 fit in?

Good verse!

It's something about loving God with our whole hearts and doing deeds from that standpoint that He blesses. But are we earning blessings?

[Esaias]

That is not the same thing as putting the money in the bank, though. It's like Acts 2:38. It's not a work for salvation, but simply applying Christ's work that saves to us. We access all the blessings afforded by the cross through obedience, but the obedience does not afford them. Jesus earned them all. It's a question of earning blessings.

Treasures are hidden in Christ. We have to dig for them. But he earned them, and earning them is what I am asking about.

Good verse!

It's something about loving God with our whole hearts and doing deeds from that standpoint that He blesses. But are we earning blessings?

Although I think the term "earn" is still slightly problematic, I don't want to split hairs. We can certainly agree Christ earned, merited, or secured all good things for us, while acknowledging we do have to put forward some efforts of some kind to see those blessings manifested in our lives. I like the analogy you have about digging for the treasures. I think that is pretty spot on. :thumbsup

[Esaias]

Does one have to get to a place of sinless perfection to make it in?

Can you enter into life with your hand, foot, or eye causing you to offend?

[Nicodemus1968]

Can you enter into life with your hand, foot, or eye causing you to offend?

Do you think the verse your relating to was intended for personal or was Jesus talking about the body of Christ, i.e the Church. Paul said we’re many members yet one body, sometimes it’s necessary to cut off members for the body to be saved. Not trying to get off on another topic, just came to my mind when I read your reply.

[Esaias]

Do you think the verse your relating to was intended for personal or was Jesus talking about the body of Christ, i.e the Church. Paul said we’re many members yet one body, sometimes it’s necessary to cut off members for the body to be saved. Not trying to get off on another topic, just came to my mind when I read your reply.

The church itself isn't facing the possibility of being cast into gehenna. The singular pronoun is used. Therefore, I conclude Jesus was speaking of the individual, and His meaning is we must get rid of anything - however dear to us - that would cause us to sin.

The pattern does, however, apply somewhat to the church. The church is to remove those causing offence (causing people to sin) - see the seven letters to the churches in Rev 2-3, the issue with the fornicator in 1 Corinthians, etc.

[Truthseeker]

Can you enter into life with your hand, foot, or eye causing you to offend?

Is that a no to my question?

[Esaias]

Is that a no to my question?

I'm asking what do you think? What do you think about that teaching of Jesus? How does it apply to the discussion, to the question you asked?

[mfblume]

If Jesus put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, as it says in the book of Hebrew, is there anything that bring it back?

Hebrews 9:25-28.. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; ..(26).. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ..(27).. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: ..(28).. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


The context is law versus grace, and how law had to annually deal with sin on the day of atonement, with the high priest entering the holiest every year, but Christ did it once and for all and entered into heaven ONCE.

I believe this applies to each individual in the sense that when we come to God, God applies the single offering for sin in Christ to our sins, and puts them away. We can sin after that, but when we repent and ask forgiveness, the blood of Jesus that was shed at the one single sacrifice is again applied. It's a matter of how many times must Christ die for our sins, and the answer is once. And each time we sin, we do not need to see Christ die again, but we go to the single time when He did. His single offering for covers every problem forevermore. I do not think it is saying that he put away sin once and for all so that there is no sin ever afterward.

Does that address your issue?

[Truthseeker]

Hebrews 9:25-28.. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; ..(26).. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ..(27).. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: ..(28).. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


The context is law versus grace, and how law had to annually deal with sin on the day of atonement, with the high priest entering the holiest every year, but Christ did it once and for all and entered into heaven ONCE.

I believe this applies to each individual in the sense that when we come to God, God applies the single offering for sin in Christ to our sins, and puts them away. We can sin after that, but when we repent and ask forgiveness, the blood of Jesus that was shed at the one single sacrifice is again applied. It's a matter of how many times must Christ die for our sins, and the answer is once. And each time we sin, we do not need to see Christ die again, but we go to the single time when He did. His single offering for covers every problem forevermore. I do not think it is saying that he put away sin once and for all so that there is no sin ever afterward.

Does that address your issue?

I understand your point. Just not sure where I fall in all of it.


So when we sin its counted against us until we confess it and change? It takes away the "made righteous " work of Christ?

[mfblume]

I understand your point. Just not sure where I fall in all of it.


So when we sin its counted against us until we confess it and change? It takes away the "made righteous " work of Christ?
I believe we fall from grace and walk out of the "made righteous" work, and we must return to it by the same work done 2000 years ago, and not another crucifixion of Jesus. It's just so long as we confess, as 1 John 1 explains. The blood CLEANSETH us.. .which is ongoing so long as we have a confessing heart and humble desire for forgiveness and correction.

[Truthseeker]

I believe we fall from grace and walk out of the "made righteous" work, and we must return to it by the same work done 2000 years ago, and not another crucifixion of Jesus. It's just so long as we confess, as 1 John 1 explains. The blood CLEANSETH us.. .which is ongoing so long as we have a confessing heart and humble desire for forgiveness and correction.

So that goes back to the question I asked earlier in this tread. Does one have to be in a place of sinless perfection to go ti heaven? What if a person baptized and filled dies before overcoming a besetting sin?

[mfblume]

So that goes back to the question I asked earlier in this tread. Does one have to be in a place of sinless perfection to go ti heaven? What if a person baptized and filled dies before overcoming a besetting sin?

One does not have to be in perfection to make it, but one does have to have one's sins dealt with by the cross. It's not a matter of overcoming all sins, but being forgiven for everything. Overcoming all sins makes us more useful in this world in doing His will, not being saved.

[Esaias]

So that goes back to the question I asked earlier in this tread. Does one have to be in a place of sinless perfection to go ti heaven? What if a person baptized and filled dies before overcoming a besetting sin?

The overcomer is promised eternal life (Rev 2:7, 2:11). The one who is overcome is assured their fate is worse than if they had never known the way of righteousness. 2 Peter 2:20-22

[Evang.Benincasa]

So that goes back to the question I asked earlier in this tread. Does one have to be in a place of sinless perfection to go ti heaven? What if a person baptized and filled dies before overcoming a besetting sin?

Here's my question, will their be people still actively sinning in heaven?

[Esaias]

Here's my question, will their be people still actively sinning in heaven?

We've been wondering where you've been. Thought maybe we missed the rapture or something... :heeheehee

[Truthseeker]

Here's my question, will their be people still actively sinning in heaven?


No

[Truthseeker]

The overcomer is promised eternal life (Rev 2:7, 2:11). The one who is overcome is assured their fate is worse than if they had never known the way of righteousness. 2 Peter 2:20-22

It didn't say overcome sins though.

[Truthseeker]

As far as the dog returning to his vomit. It's seems to be referring to leaving the faith. Some are inclined to believe it means they return to the law. Dogs=Jews

[Esaias]

Jesus warned against sin in the church, and then promises life to the one who overcomes. Peter warned about those who escaped the pollutiins of the world and then get entangled therein and overcome by them.

[Esaias]

How much sin is acceptable to God?

[Truthseeker]

Jesus warned against sin in the church, and then promises life to the one who overcomes. Peter warned about those who escaped the pollutiins of the world and then get entangled therein and overcome by them.



Pollutions of the world=old covenant law/ system.


I believe that if one is truly converted they will hate sin and yield to God to overcome. One big issue is false conversion .its a huge issue, at least where we are at. I just don't think those text are saying what you believe they are.

[Evang.Benincasa]

We've been wondering where you've been. Thought maybe we missed the rapture or something... :heeheehee

I've been killing it again.

Pray for me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

No

If that is true, then how can you ask the below question? Obviously you would have to stop sinning in order to make heaven your home. Your brain is logically assessing that sin cannot be actively going on in heaven. Therefore logic would also dictate that you would have to indeed stop sinning in order to go there. Hence REMISSION of sins?


So that goes back to the question I asked earlier in this tread. Does one have to be in a place of sinless perfection to go ti heaven? What if a person baptized and filled dies before overcoming a besetting sin?

[Truthseeker]

If that is true, then how can you ask the below question? Obviously you would have to stop sinning in order to make heaven your home. Your brain is logically assessing that sin cannot be actively going on in heaven. Therefore logic would also dictate that you would have to indeed stop sinning in order to go there. Hence REMISSION of sins?


The big difference is we wont even have the ability to sin, we will be in a glorified state.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The big difference is we wont even have the ability to sin, we will be in a glorified state.

What verses do you use which say we have no longer the ability to sin.
Which would indicate no free will to choose. You do understand the implications of what you just posted?

[Evang.Benincasa]

It is also interesting how many Christian groups believe that you cannot stop sining. That you are incapable of going without sin until your own death, burial, and your own resurrection. Nullifying anything you have done while you were alive walking in the Holy Ghost, living for Jesus. Sort of removes all responsibility on our part, due to our own future death, burial, and resurrection. We are told in 1st John 3 that whoever sins is of the devil. But the OT, and NT seem silent where heaven is accessible to those who instead of “go and sin NO MORE” they are to “go and try to sin less.”

[Esaias]

Pollutions of the world=old covenant law/ system.


Please demonstrate the truth of your claim.

[Esaias]

I've been killing it again.

Pray for me.

Always, brother. :thumbsup

[votivesoul]

It seems to me the main reason anyone receives a blessing or blessings from God is because God is a loving, gracious Father who enjoys doing good to His creation, even allowing the rain to fall on the just and the unjust, so all may grow a crop, have a harvest, be fed, clothed, and cared for, and etc.

Luke 6:35,

35. ...for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

And if we, being evil, know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more does our Heavenly Father know how to give the greatest gift of all, the Holy Spirit (with all that that means), to those who but ask Him?

So, while there are greater, more wonderful blessings available to the believer who has received the Holy Spirit, generally speaking, blessings come from the Father of Lights because God is Love and, out of the abundance of His goodness, daily loads us all with His benefits.

[Truthseeker]

What verses do you use which say we have no longer the ability to sin.
Which would indicate no free will to choose. You do understand the implications of what you just posted?


Is there scripture that says after we die and go to heaven in our glorified state that we can still choose to sin? We will be like him, does he have the ability to sin? I think not !

[Evang.Benincasa]

Is there scripture that says after we die and go to heaven in our glorified state that we can still choose to sin? We will be like him, does he have the ability to sin? I think not !

I see you are loosely quoting 1 John 3:5? What about 1 John 3:7? You are to be as righteous as Jesus NOW. Or what about 1 John 3:3? We are told to purerify ourselves to be as pure as Jesus. That’s way before any glorified body, right? Sorry, you have no scripture for becoming a ecclesiastical Stepford wife in heaven. You either get to abide in Jesus now, or you won’t be in heaven later.

[Truthseeker]

I see you are loosely quoting 1 John 3:5? What about 1 John 3:7? You are to be as righteous as Jesus NOW. Or what about 1 John 3:3? We are told to purerify ourselves to be as pure as Jesus. That’s way before any glorified body, right? Sorry, you have no scripture for becoming a ecclesiastical Stepford wife in heaven. You either get to abide in Jesus now, or you won’t be in heaven later.

I was referring to when one does they are in a glorified state as he is making the ability to sin impossible when in heaven. If you dont believe that, which in my opinion os biblically clear, I dont know what else to say.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I was referring to when one does they are in a glorified state as he is making the ability to sin impossible when in heaven. If you dont believe that, which in my opinion os biblically clear, I dont know what else to say.

When one does what when they are in a glorified state?

[Truthseeker]

When one does what when they are in a glorified state?

That was typo, meant when one dies.

[Esaias]

Please demonstrate the truth of your claim.

I guess the answer is no, then?

[Nicodemus1968]

Here's my question, will their be people still actively sinning in heaven?

According to scripture we understand there are 3 Heavens. If your referring to the third Heaven where the Spirit of God dwells, No, there is no sin there. As we live a sinless life on this earth where sin is ever present, when we die from this body and enter our reward, we enter a place where no sin exists, and we will not have the ability to accept sin over righteousness. We chose what we desired while on this earth, you either chose sin which will lead to death, or you chose to live according to the plan of God and we are “blessed” (used the marks, because of the topic) with eternal life with him.

[Esaias]

So no free will in heaven?

[Evang.Benincasa]

So no free will in heaven?

Sure sounds like it.

Jesus tells the woman caught in adultery go sin no more. The healed blind man to go sin no more unless something worse happens. John tells his students that if they sin they are of Satan. But Jesus or any of the apostles then say that free will ends with a glorified body? People look at heaven being sinless and God being sinless, and then say that our own death, burial, and resurrection transform us into a new creature unable to ever sin. Yet the New Testament stresses that we are to be free from sin, living overcoming lives, being perfect as God is perfect, being as righteous and pure as Jesus. All these things possible now. Jesus died, Jesus was buried, Jesus resurrected, and we are to abide in Him. You can’t be abiding in Him, and then at some later date get some jump start to make you sinless in order to live in heaven. We just don’t have a logical outline where that is taught. You can’t be part of the body, and be part of the harlot. Sweet water doesn’t come out of a cess pool. That is the New Testament teaching. Not waiting for pie in the sky by and by.

[diakonos]

You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You’ll get pie in the sky when you die.

[Esaias]

Sure sounds like it.

Jesus tells the woman caught in adultery go sin no more. The healed blind man to go sin no more unless something worse happens. John tells his students that if they sin they are of Satan. But Jesus or any of the apostles then say that free will ends with a glorified body? People look at heaven being sinless and God being sinless, and then say that our own death, burial, and resurrection transform us into a new creature unable to ever sin. Yet the New Testament stresses that we are to be free from sin, living overcoming lives, being perfect as God is perfect, being as righteous and pure as Jesus. All these things possible now. Jesus died, Jesus was buried, Jesus resurrected, and we are to abide in Him. You can’t be abiding in Him, and then at some later date get some jump start to make you sinless in order to live in heaven. We just don’t have a logical outline where that is taught. You can’t be part of the body, and be part of the harlot. Sweet water doesn’t come out of a cess pool. That is the New Testament teaching. Not waiting for pie in the sky by and by.

The Roman church teaches you can't get free from sin now in this lufe, you have to die first and then you get purged in Purgatory, then you get into heaven. This "you get sanctified after death" thing sounds like a short version of purgatory.

But then, I'm not catholic so naturally I don't buy it. :thumbsup

[mfblume]

The big difference is we wont even have the ability to sin, we will be in a glorified state.

What happened to the angels how lost their first estate?

[mfblume]

I was referring to when one does they are in a glorified state as he is making the ability to sin impossible when in heaven. If you dont believe that, which in my opinion os biblically clear, I dont know what else to say.

I do not believe that. No sin is in heaven, but before God takes us there, he ensured that this would remain the case.

He left us in this sin-ridden world after he saved us. We are bombarded with temptations all the time, and we learn to overcome in time. And after having done all to resist sin and learn to overcome it, and having been blasted with it on a daily basis from the world and the devil, it's a pretty good scenario that those who make it will not sin later. But the idea that we cannot sin in heaven is not biblical. Angels fell due to sin.

[Evang.Benincasa]

What happened to the angels how lost their first estate?

Ouch!!!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

I do not believe that. No sin is in heaven, but before God takes us there, he ensured that this would remain the case.

He left us in this sin-ridden world after he saved us. We are bombarded with temptations all the time, and we learn to overcome in time. And after having done all to resist sin and learn to overcome it, and having been blasted with it on a daily basis from the world and the devil, it's a pretty good scenario that those who make it will not sin later. But the idea that we cannot sin in heaven is not biblical. Angels fell due to sin.

Very good point, which many refuse to deal with.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The Roman church teaches you can't get free from sin now in this lufe, you have to die first and then you get purged in Purgatory, then you get into heaven. This "you get sanctified after death" thing sounds like a short version of purgatory.

But then, I'm not catholic so naturally I don't buy it. :thumbsup

Good post :highfive

Baptists, Catholics, and Presbyterians believe you are saved by your own death, burial, and resurrection.

[votivesoul]

I think people are under the impression that when they are resurrected into heaven, they are resurrected without the law of sin in their members (part of what it means to be glorified), and so, as formerly wretched men that they were, they are now saved from such death.

And then, without such a law in their members, and without a tempter or corrupted flesh to draw them away by their own lusts, they are naturally, finally free from the law of sin and death. So, if the last enemy to be defeated is death, and death is the wages of sin, and those who have overcome and been faithful to the end, are ushered into everlasting joy in the heavens, they naturally assume that their eternal life then means they cannot die, and if they cannot die, then there is no more wages of sin, which indicates no more sin.

In this scenario, it's not a matter of free will or not, but rather a will that has been freely submitted to the Lord for all time. Hence why the second death has no power over them.

[Esaias]

I think people are under the impression that when they are resurrected into heaven, they are resurrected without the law of sin in their members (part of what it means to be glorified), and so, as formerly wretched men that they were, they are now saved from such death.

And then, without such a law in their members, and without a tempter or corrupted flesh to draw them away by their own lusts, they are naturally, finally free from the law of sin and death. So, if the last enemy to be defeated is death, and death is the wages of sin, and those who have overcome and been faithful to the end, are ushered into everlasting joy in the heavens, they naturally assume that their eternal life then means they cannot die, and if they cannot die, then there is no more wages of sin, which indicates no more sin.

In this scenario, it's not a matter of free will or not, but rather a will that has been freely submitted to the Lord for all time. Hence why the second death has no power over them.

Physically dying does not free anyone from the law of sin and death:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans:8:2

[mfblume]

I think people are under the impression that when they are resurrected into heaven, they are resurrected without the law of sin in their members (part of what it means to be glorified), and so, as formerly wretched men that they were, they are now saved from such death.

And then, without such a law in their members, and without a tempter or corrupted flesh to draw them away by their own lusts, they are naturally, finally free from the law of sin and death. So, if the last enemy to be defeated is death, and death is the wages of sin, and those who have overcome and been faithful to the end, are ushered into everlasting joy in the heavens, they naturally assume that their eternal life then means they cannot die, and if they cannot die, then there is no more wages of sin, which indicates no more sin.

In this scenario, it's not a matter of free will or not, but rather a will that has been freely submitted to the Lord for all time. Hence why the second death has no power over them.

Good points!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Physically dying does not free anyone from the law of sin and death:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans:8:2

Romans 8:2 does it everytime :happydance

[Truthseeker]

I do not believe that. No sin is in heaven, but before God takes us there, he ensured that this would remain the case.

He left us in this sin-ridden world after he saved us. We are bombarded with temptations all the time, and we learn to overcome in time. And after having done all to resist sin and learn to overcome it, and having been blasted with it on a daily basis from the world and the devil, it's a pretty good scenario that those who make it will not sin later. But the idea that we cannot sin in heaven is not biblical. Angels fell due to sin.

He will made to be like him. That's the difference between us and the Angel's.

[votivesoul]

Physically dying does not free anyone from the law of sin and death:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans:8:2

Go, tell it on the mountain! Too many are waiting to kick-off or be raptured. Too many "just go to heaven, who cares about the earth" believers. So they wait for some future end-time scenario they think will finally save them.

[Evang.Benincasa]

He will made to be like him. That's the difference between us and the Angel's.

He, who? Will be made like who?

[Nicodemus1968]

Just so I’m understanding you guys correctly.

Romans 8:1-2
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I believe we agree, that just because you die (physically) that doesn’t free you from sin. Our victory over sin comes from Jesus Christ i.e Acts 2:38 experience and then living a holy overcoming life in the discipline of the gospel.

What I want to make sure I understand is, so far the majority on this thread believes that us that were on this earth (physically) received Acts 2:38 message lived this life in the fear of God, when we die we have the ability to either stay in Gods presence or we can decide to rebel (bad rebellion) against God and from that point be tossed out to Hell?

Because looks like Mr. Blume, Mr. Benincasa, and Mr. Esaias are pointing towards the fall of Satan and Angels. And using that scripture to state that well have the same option when we die? That’s just fascinating to me! Bro. Benincasa Ill ask you the same question you asked someone earlier, “you do understand the implications of what you just posted?”

A false balance is an abomination to God, there’s a ditch on both sides of the road. So if we’re able to have a free will in the dimension of God to chose to not be in Gods presence like “Satan” and “his Angels” appear to have done and commit sin, then that means those that have committed sin have the ability to go to Heaven once there in Hell.

Paul said it like this....

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

So to sinners that are in hell right now, there is a lot of sin there (apparently) that means Grace will overcome that sin and they can leave Hell and enter into his gates with Thanksgiving and into his courts with praise. One thing I might add, those angels your comparing yourself to, the Bible says “they desire to look into” Maybe one of you men can give me scripture that teaches angels also receive the Holy Ghost, because if they have the ability and free will, that means that free will has to be submitted by his spirit (Holy Ghost). Free will not submitted to God is Rebellion.

[Truthseeker]

He, who? Will be made like who?

Excuse me bro, I be doing fast posting in between doing stuff. I meant we will be like hin when enter into a glorified state with him.

[Esaias]

Just so I’m understanding you guys correctly.

Romans 8:1-2
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I believe we agree, that just because you die (physically) that doesn’t free you from sin. Our victory over sin comes from Jesus Christ i.e Acts 2:38 experience and then living a holy overcoming life in the discipline of the gospel.

What I want to make sure I understand is, so far the majority on this thread believes that us that were on this earth (physically) received Acts 2:38 message lived this life in the fear of God, when we die we have the ability to either stay in Gods presence or we can decide to rebel (bad rebellion) against God and from that point be tossed out to Hell?

Because looks like Mr. Blume, Mr. Benincasa, and Mr. Esaias are pointing towards the fall of Satan and Angels. And using that scripture to state that well have the same option when we die? That’s just fascinating to me! Bro. Benincasa Ill ask you the same question you asked someone earlier, “you do understand the implications of what you just posted?”

A false balance is an abomination to God, there’s a ditch on both sides of the road. So if we’re able to have a free will in the dimension of God to chose to not be in Gods presence like “Satan” and “his Angels” appear to have done and commit sin, then that means those that have committed sin have the ability to go to Heaven once there in Hell.

Paul said it like this....

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

So to sinners that are in hell right now, there is a lot of sin there (apparently) that means Grace will overcome that sin and they can leave Hell and enter into his gates with Thanksgiving and into his courts with praise. One thing I might add, those angels your comparing yourself to, the Bible says “they desire to look into” Maybe one of you men can give me scripture that teaches angels also receive the Holy Ghost, because if they have the ability and free will, that means that free will has to be submitted by his spirit (Holy Ghost). Free will not submitted to God is Rebellion.

I don't believe God's holy angels rebelled and fell from grace. I believe that is a dangerous Jewish heresy rebuked by both Peter and Jude.

But besides that, sinners on the day of judgment suffer the second death and will perish. They will not be around to change their mind, and even if they lived forever they wouldn't change their mind. Not because they literally cannot, but because they WILL not. That's why they suffer the second death, because they chose death and refuse life. Besides, just because a prisoner reforms and has remorse and really does have a change of heart doesn't obligate the governor to pardon him. Trial was had, sentence was given and carried out, no appeals and no paroles. Too bad so sad.

The saints, however, will eternally live to please God. Not because they literally CANNOT do otherwise, but because they chose life and continue to choose it. Their mind is made up, and it was made up BEFORE they departed this life.

Free will does not mean a being must choose to sin against God. God Himself has free will. He chooses what is right. If a person has no free will, they have no moral character, either good or bad. No more than a tree has moral character.

[diakonos]

I don't believe God's holy angels rebelled and fell from grace. I believe that is a dangerous Jewish heresy rebuked by both Peter and Jude.



Rev 12:4?

[Nicodemus1968]

Rev 12:4?

Remember Joseph’s dream

Genesis 37:9-10
[9] And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. [10] And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

I don’t want to get off subject, yet go study what and who the stars really are, might as well look at the sun and the moon since your there. And also read about the writing against the Babylonian king in Isaiah 14. !!Spoiler Alert!! Not what you were taught in Sunday School Class.... LOL:thumbsup

[KeptByTheWord]

Fascinating discussion.

Excellent teaching Bro. Blume!

Whenever I think of blessings, I think of the sermon on the Mount

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the [a]earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you,
and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
12Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


The blessings of the Lord are not the stuff of an American dream. But the blessings of the Lord teach us to depend on Him more, and lean on Him through the hardships we encounter.

God's economy is upside down to the world's. He who is great, shall be least, and the least shall be great. The blessings of the Lord in our life may lead to sorrow, heartache, pain and suffering, but the end result will be an overcoming victory over our flesh, which is the greatest blessing of all, and the knowledge that we can do nothing without and apart from Him that has eternal value.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saved through the gift of faith given to us by Jesus. Our works show our thankfulness for His great gift. His righteousness is ours because of our faith.

Salvation is a gift. Works are a sign of appreciation for that great gift. Heaven is our eternal reward for overcoming our flesh by the blood through the power given to us at Calvary.

[votivesoul]

Physically dying does not free anyone from the law of sin and death:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans:8:2

A second thought:

The position I am citing isn't based on one's physical death, but upon one's resurrection.

The idea is that, while in this tabernacle, we groan and travail and suffer many things, but once someone dies and is resurrected, and they experience the redemption of their bodies, and, being in a glorified state, there won't be any more corruption to lust and so be drawn away.

So then, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, while it makes us free in this life, is still but an earnest of the inheritance. The rest of the fullness of that inheritance comes later with the resurrection.

[Evang.Benincasa]

A second thought:

The position I am citing isn't based on one's physical death, but upon one's resurrection.

The idea is that, while in this tabernacle, we groan and travail and suffer many things, but once someone dies and is resurrected, and they experience the redemption of their bodies, and, being in a glorified state, there won't be any more corruption to lust and so be drawn away.

So then, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, while it makes us free in this life, is still but an earnest of the inheritance. The rest of the fullness of that inheritance comes later with the resurrection.

An adult no longer struggles with the issues of teen youth.

[Esaias]

Rev 12:4?

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Revelation:12:4

I dont see where it says a bunch of angels rebelled in the distant past?

[Esaias]

A second thought:

The position I am citing isn't based on one's physical death, but upon one's resurrection.

The idea is that, while in this tabernacle, we groan and travail and suffer many things, but once someone dies and is resurrected, and they experience the redemption of their bodies, and, being in a glorified state, there won't be any more corruption to lust and so be drawn away.

So then, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, while it makes us free in this life, is still but an earnest of the inheritance. The rest of the fullness of that inheritance comes later with the resurrection.

While it's true that a resurrected body will not have corrupted appetites, thus a major source of temptation will have been removed, yet not all temptation is due to the physical body. Moreover, temptation is not synonymous with a lack of sanctification, for Jesus was holy and unblameable and yet was tempted in all points like us.

The fullness of the inheritance does not consist in the after-resurrection gift of full moral obedience to God. All men are obligated in THIS life to be fully obedient to God. All are morally obligated to love God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love their neighbour as themself - in THIS life. Thus, a complete fulfillment of moral obligation is possible in this life. And thus, full moral obedience is possible in this life.

The fullness of the inheritance is therefore not "complete obedience bestowed on partially rebellious children just because they died and resurrected."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I do not believe that. No sin is in heaven, but before God takes us there, he ensured that this would remain the case.

He left us in this sin-ridden world after he saved us. We are bombarded with temptations all the time, and we learn to overcome in time. And after having done all to resist sin and learn to overcome it, and having been blasted with it on a daily basis from the world and the devil, it's a pretty good scenario that those who make it will not sin later. But the idea that we cannot sin in heaven is not biblical. Angels fell due to sin.He will made to be like him. That's the difference between us and the Angel's.



I find no bible to indicate that this means we cannot sin in heaven. At best it's an assumption that it means that.

[Nicodemus1968]

I find no bible to indicate that this means we cannot sin in heaven. At best it's an assumption that it means that.

For clarity, please in layman’s terms, do you believe that we will be able to sin in heaven? Will we be a free will moral agent in the heavens?

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Romans 7:18 AMP
[18] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness-my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not.

Romans 7:24 AMP
[24] Wretched and miserable man that I am! Who will [rescue me and] set me free from this body of death [this corrupt, mortal existence]?

Psalm 51:5 KJVS
[5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I believe sin comes from a nature that we have since our conception into life. This physical man represents the nature of sin, if we are able to commit sin in heaven or have a free will mindset, where will that nature come from?

[Esaias]

For clarity, please in layman’s terms, do you believe that we will be able to sin in heaven? Will we be a free will moral agent in the heavens?

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Romans 7:18 AMP
[18] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness-my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not.

Romans 7:24 AMP
[24] Wretched and miserable man that I am! Who will [rescue me and] set me free from this body of death [this corrupt, mortal existence]?

Psalm 51:5 KJVS
[5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I believe sin comes from a nature that we have since our conception into life. This physical man represents the nature of sin, if we are able to commit sin in heaven or have a free will mindset, where will that nature come from?

How did Adam sin? Was he created with indwelling iniquity and sinfulness?

Was Jesus a genuine human being? With a genuine human nature?

Did Jesus have free will?

Does God have free will?

Do we have free will now, in this life?

[Evang.Benincasa]

How did Adam sin? Was he created with indwelling iniquity and sinfulness?

Was Jesus a genuine human being? With a genuine human nature?

Did Jesus have free will?

Does God have free will?

Do we have free will now, in this life?

Actually we deal a lot with people who believe that they have to sin. They believe they can’t avoid it. No matter what they do. Not only do they believe in LIMITED free will, but believe in FATE based Christianity. Where the Christian is bound to which ever FATE they happen to be born under. Even God Himself has no free will. No Christian can possibly change or impact the world around them because the world is inevitably heading towards destruction. So, all Christians sin, because they are only human and they live in a fallen world where they are like little spoiled children who can’t help themselves. Pretty sad, and what is sadder is they believe they can fight the devil in that jacked up condition.

[Evang.Benincasa]

For clarity, please in layman’s terms, do you believe that we will be able to sin in heaven? Will we be a free will moral agent in the heavens?

Of course, why wouldn't we be? Jesus didn't call forth mindless dupes to follow Him. He rebuked those who were thinkers, and rebuked those who were careless in their decisions.



2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Can't imagine why you chose to offer this verse to us? Where does it state that we become mindless, and unable to make decisions on anything? Nostradamus1968 can you please show why you employed this particular verse?


Romans 7:18 AMP
[18] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness-my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not.

Romans 7:24 AMP
[24] Wretched and miserable man that I am! Who will [rescue me and] set me free from this body of death [this corrupt, mortal existence?

Nostradamus1968, you obviously don't understand what the APOSTLE was teaching here. He isn't teaching that you was unable to allow the Holy Ghost to lead and guide him. But was struggling with intrusive sinful thoughts, and absolutely out of control spiritually? Paul is using these comments to show the struggle that the religious Rabbinical Judaism was dealing with on the day to day living within a law system, they actually wanted to find loopholes in. He is trying to point out to those who received this Roman letter that it was possible for them to overcome this human struggle through Christ and not through religion. Also employing the Amplified version of the verses doesn't help you prove anything. It is merely commentary of the woman who translated the Amplified Version of the Bible. Paul wasn't wrestling with sin while he was rebuking a church to get right. Which brings in another question? When you are in the pulpit? Where on earth is your mind going?



Psalm 51:5 KJVS
[5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Nostradamus1968, read the verse out loud and thing about each word. Think about what is really being said, and not what you were TOLD what it is saying. I (David) was shapen in lawlessness, and in SIN did MY MOTHER conceive me. Who was the lawless sinner? The unborn baby? Or the adult mother? Sin isn't passed on from mother to unborn child Ezek 18:20. If infants were born sinful, then why would Jesus instruct neophytes to be just like them Matthew 19:13-14; Luke 18:16-17? We don't believe in infant baptism because the infant cannot believe and accept Christ Mark 16:16. Each of us will give an account for what we have done 2 Cor. 5:10, Roman 14:12. Free will is an adults choice, Joshua 24:15, Revelation 22:17, and Hebrews 11:25.



I believe sin comes from a nature that we have since our conception into life.

This sort of thinking gives way to all sorts of problems. From aborted babies losing their souls, to Mary just being a vessel to hold the infant Jesus, while not sharing anything with the mother, blood, DNA, having divine flesh?


This physical man represents the nature of sin, if we are able to commit sin in heaven or have a free will mindset, where will that nature come from?


People can have their sins remitted for how long? Until they dry off from the baptism?

Good grief

[Nicodemus1968]

Of course, why wouldn't we be? Jesus didn't call forth mindless dupes to follow Him. He rebuked those who were thinkers, and rebuked those who were careless in their decisions.

So, then when we have departed from this earth, and are in the third dimension with God. If a person is found with sin they can be cast to outer darkness? Cause with your mindset of our mind in heaven will be the same as on earth then there will always be a way to depart from the faith. Now, since there is a ditch on both sides (unless you don’t believe that) that would also mean souls that entered death (outer darkness) can have a chance at redemption. If we have still have our mindset we have on earth then would in damnation should still have the mindset of repentance.

Can't imagine why you chose to offer this verse to us? Where does it state that we become mindless, and unable to make decisions on anything? Nostradamus1968 can you please show why you employed this particular verse?

There has been discussion that as we are here on earth we will be in heaven. Free will agents to do with as we please. There was even discussion relating to the so called “fallen Angels” that left their first estate. I was using this verse in relation to those discussions that if were going to have the same mindset in heaven, why was Paul wanting to be absent from this body? I mean he should’ve be weary of this body (physical or the nature of his flesh) since this nature will be with him for all eternity.

Nostradamus1968, you obviously don't understand what the APOSTLE was teaching here. He isn't teaching that you was unable to allow the Holy Ghost to lead and guide him.

Bro. Benincasa, perhaps you need more rest. When did I ever say that???

But was struggling with intrusive sinful thoughts, and absolutely out of control spiritually?

This is the mindset your stating were going to have in heaven.:thumbsup

Paul is using these comments to show the struggle that the religious Rabbinical Judaism was dealing with on the day to day living within a law system, they actually wanted to find loopholes in. He is trying to point out to those who received this Roman letter that it was possible for them to overcome this human struggle through Christ and not through religion. Also employing the Amplified version of the verses doesn't help you prove anything. It is merely commentary of the woman who translated the Amplified Version of the Bible. Paul wasn't wrestling with sin while he was rebuking a church to get right.

The discussion Mr. Benincasa is being a free will moral agent with the mindset we have here on earth to chose good or evil even after death. So, i used this verse to bring my point of view that this idea that where going to have a free will with the mindset that we had here on earth, because God doesn’t want “mindless whatever” up in heaven. Free will moral agent comes with everything it comes with, not just what you and others decide to fulfill your point.

Which brings in another question? When you are in the pulpit? Where on earth is your mind going?

Ill deal with this statement at the end of this post.

Nostradamus1968, read the verse out loud and thing about each word. Think about what is really being said, and not what you were TOLD what it is saying. I (David) was shapen in lawlessness, and in SIN did MY MOTHER conceive me. Who was the lawless sinner? The unborn baby? Or the adult mother? Sin isn't passed on from mother to unborn child Ezek 18:20. If infants were born sinful, then why would Jesus instruct neophytes to be just like them Matthew 19:13-14; Luke 18:16-17? We don't believe in infant baptism because the infant cannot believe and accept Christ Mark 16:16. Each of us will give an account for what we have done 2 Cor. 5:10, Roman 14:12. Free will is an adults choice, Joshua 24:15, Revelation 22:17, and Hebrews 11:25.

From the fall of Adam each and everyone of us was born with a sin nature i.e Paul told the church at Corinth that after Adam all die, physically??? Psalms 51 is the Psalm of repentance with this verse is David stating that his Mother was in sin or because of the fallen nature of man he was born in sin, relating to God why he fell into sin with Bethesda. Again I’m relating to the nature you say where going to have in heaven, free will mind that can chose to good or evil has its drawbacks. Again you don’t chose what come with the free will mindset you get all or it or none of it.

This sort of thinking gives way to all sorts of problems. From aborted babies losing their souls, to Mary just being a vessel to hold the infant Jesus, while not sharing anything with the mother, blood, DNA, having divine flesh?

So, you DON’T believe we were born into a sin nature. When does the nature come to a child, 13 or maybe 20 years old. I believe you may not, which you have the free will to do so. This flesh is symbolic of sin, doesn’t matter the age. No one taught me to lie, or steal my nature was that way. Thank God for an alter at the age of 9, and trust me I had a list of cruel things I repented of. By the way, I heard your testimony personally don’t tell me you didn’t have things to repent over. You cant just “blame” your parents you had a sin nature on you just as much as anyone of us. I’m sorry this thing about “aborted babies” etc, with all due respect please trade your advice “think about what you post”. I’m talking about the sin nature that comes with this flesh, Jesus told them become as a child, children aren’t innocent, they believe. As adults we tend to move away from full believing and depend on our own intellect.

People can have their sins remitted for how long? Until they dry off from the baptism?

All I can say is my word.

Good grief

I mean this in Love, if I didn’t know your personality and I read your response I would say two things...
1- You have a complex
2- You struggle with Intimidation

How about you engage in a debate with manners, read your response it seems personal. Please don’t take this personal. That little remark about what I’m thinking about on the pulpit is childish, why do you feel you have to write like that. What are you going through? You don’t deal with small man syndrome do you?

The topic being discussed is will we have the mindset we have on earth in heaven? We will remember our life here, we will have knowledge of who people are, etc.

I have a question for you. If you want to answer great, if not that fine as well.

1- Seeing we have this free will moral agent with the mindset we had on earth to do good or evil. How will we be lead by the Holy Ghost in heaven?

[Nicodemus1968]

If in heaven were free will moral agents that can sin in heaven. Some of the posts are relating this topic to the “angels” that left their first estate to prove we will have the ability to commit transgressions in heaven. I just don’t understand what scriptures they can explain this theory with. The Bible plainly states that there is a battle with the flesh and spirit, Paul said there contrary the one to the other. Our flesh represents our sin nature, that’s why Paul said I die daily. Paul said in me dwelleth no good thing, that is in my flesh (sin nature) the ability to commit sin. If when we die that nature to commit sin is taken from us we will be fully committed to him (i know my words will be taken out of context). Pauls writing always points to the fact that while were here on this earth there is a longing to know God more intimately, yet this flesh is our hindrance. Between demonic spirits and the nature of this flesh its a constant battle, we have rest on this earth yet Eye hath not seen nor ear heard.... were not going to have knowledge of this world, were going to be in REVELATION, not KNOWLEDGE, knowledge puffeth up. We’re not going to have a mindset of sin like on this earth our mind is going to be Jesus.

What about?
Adam he sinned
1-Explain to me how that was heaven
2- His wife was tempted and he gave into his wife, who is going to temp us in heaven?

Satan and his angels sinned in heaven
1- Please explain that to me with scripture, that Lucifer was the chief Angel of Music and he decided one day he wanted to become God and he gathered 1/3 of the angels and wanted a rebellion against God and God kicked him out.

Did Jesus have free will?
Jesus was tempted just like we are. Yet he did it with no sin! So, does that mean Jesus to this present day is still being tempted?

Do we have free will now?
Yes we do, when we die that nature of free will is dissolved with this humanity in the ground. Cremate me if you will, my flesh will go back to the dust it was created from. My spirit goes and will be connected to my maker, my thoughts, mindset will be him, not on this previous life, but my dedication to my king. Eye hath not seen nor ear hear neither has it entered into the heart of man... Heaven is pure Revelation of Jesus, Paul said he heard things that man cannot utter. This mind and our bodies have no place in that dimension. It’s a place that is pure, a presence unlike we have ever felt.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So, then when we have departed from this earth, and are in the third dimension with God.

The third dimension? Paul mentions a third heaven, nothing about a third dimension. If you are having a discussion with me, wouldn't it be better if you didn't make things up?


If a person is found with sin they can be cast to outer darkness? Cause with your mindset of our mind in heaven will be the same as on earth then there will always be a way to depart from the faith. Now, since there is a ditch on both sides (unless you don’t believe that) that would also mean souls that entered death (outer darkness) can have a chance at redemption. If we have still have our mindset we have on earth then would in damnation should still have the mindset of repentance.

You aren't following what is being discussed. Because you have a preconceived notion that we are all inherent sinners which can be only taken out of sin with our own death, burial, and resurrection. While you may post back and claim you don't believe this, you sure respond like you do.


There has been discussion that as we are here on earth we will be in heaven. Free will agents to do with as we please. There was even discussion relating to the so called “fallen Angels” that left their first estate. I was using this verse in relation to those discussions that if were going to have the same mindset in heaven, why was Paul wanting to be absent from this body? I mean he should’ve be weary of this body (physical or the nature of his flesh) since this nature will be with him for all eternity.

But the verse says nothing about what you are posting. Paul makes the statement that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Simple, nothing more. Your explanation concerning physical flesh isn't what is meant by being carnal. Carnality is of the mind, not our DNA. Who the Lord has set free is free indeed.




Bro. Benincasa, perhaps you need more rest. When did I ever say that???

Look, below in your answer to me.


This is the mindset your stating were going to have in heaven.

Again, you assume that you can never get out of sin until you die.
Therefore you put words in my mouth I never posted.



The discussion Mr. Benincasa

Mr? that was quick. :heeheehee



is being a free will moral agent with the mindset we have here on earth to chose good or evil even after death. So, i used this verse to bring my point of view that this idea that where going to have a free will with the mindset that we had here on earth, because God doesn’t want “mindless whatever” up in heaven. Free will moral agent comes with everything it comes with, not just what you and others decide to fulfill your point.

When did you say that? Right here. Paul didn't struggle with a sinful nature. He is speaking of man in general.


From the fall of Adam each and everyone of us was born with a sin nature i.e Paul told the church at Corinth that after Adam all die, physically???

Looks like the verses I offered were ignored? Romans 5 also states that through one man's obedience many are made righteous? Looks like you are more focused on the fallen man, instead of the risen Man? Adam didn't die physically. Remember, the verse in Genesis tells us that the DAY Adam transgressed the Law he died. So, the death was what Jesus came to undue to escort Adam back into Eden.



Psalms 51 is the Psalm of repentance with this verse is David stating that his Mother was in sin or because of the fallen nature of man he was born in sin, relating to God why he fell into sin with Bethesda. Again I’m relating to the nature you say where going to have in heaven, free will mind that can chose to good or evil has its drawbacks. Again you don’t chose what come with the free will mindset you get all or it or none of it.

Sorry, but David isn't saying that he was an infant who was in sin. He is telling us that sin is what his mother did when he was CONCEIVED. I'm not choosing anything, I am just looking at what the verses are saying. Not what someone is telling me they believe the verses are saying.


So, you DON’T believe we were born into a sin nature. When does the nature come to a child, 13 or maybe 20 years old.

Roman Catholics believe that infants are sinners in the womb. Hence they need baptism. Do you believe that babies need baptism? When is it time to baptize a child? 13 or maybe 20? in Jonah 4:11 God tells Jonah that He cared about Nineveh, because there were 120,000 innocent children. The scripture notes that they didn't hold choice. Why? because they were infants.
David tells us about his mother being sinful, that the conditions of his birth "conception" was one of sin. Not he as an infant. The infant is brought into a world of sin, and through that world around them is where they grow up and make choices. Hence Joshua 24:15 "choose you this day whom ye will serve."


I believe you may not, which you have the free will to do so. This flesh is symbolic of sin, doesn’t matter the age. No one taught me to lie, or steal my nature was that way. Thank God for an alter at the age of 9, and trust me I had a list of cruel things I repented of. By the way, I heard your testimony personally don’t tell me you didn’t have things to repent over. You cant just “blame” your parents you had a sin nature on you just as much as anyone of us. I’m sorry this thing about “aborted babies” etc, with all due respect please trade your advice “think about what you post”. I’m talking about the sin nature that comes with this flesh, Jesus told them become as a child, children aren’t innocent, they believe. As adults we tend to move away from full believing and depend on our own intellect.

If you heard my testimony in Michigan, you then would remember that I wasn't 9. But since you bring up who I use to be, I can tell you that my testimony is about where I am today. Obviously you didn't understand my testimony. It isn't who we were, it is where we are in the blood of Christ. The decisions we make after we walk out of the watery grave in Jesus name.




I mean this in Love, if I didn’t know your personality and I read your response I would say two things...

Don't take this the wrong way. Please. But, you don't know me personally. Because meeting me once, doesn't mean you know me. Then we can all say that we know a plethora of preachers who have visited our churches and preached to us. Then got out of the pulpit and shook our hands.




1- You have a complex

This sounds like forum pyschological projection. :)


2- You struggle with Intimidation

Is that what you are currently dealing with?

Because of the way you posted your response, I saw this first.
I thought "that is an odd thing to say?" Because I was puzzled to what I would be intimated about? It isn't your Bible knowledge, I can't for the life of me remember what you look like, or what happened when we met? Therefore I searched the rest of the post to see where you dealt with my offerings. I found them in bolded font in the quoted section.


How about you engage in a debate with manners, read your response it seems personal. Please don’t take this personal. That little remark about what I’m thinking about on the pulpit is childish, why do you feel you have to write like that. What are you going through? You don’t deal with small man syndrome do you?

Funny, "please don't take this personal" then you proceed to make it personal? :lol Asking you what you are thinking when you are in the pulpit is frankly a good question. Because you believe that even though we have the Holy Ghost we are still a slave to sin? If I am wrong, please correct me. But if you can maintain some sort of spiritual holiness when you are in the pulpit. Then why can't that be maintained the rest of eternity? Jesus said LEARN OF HIM. Paul admonished us to WALK in the light as JESUS walks in the Light. John tells us in 1 John 3 that we are to purify ourselves to be as pure and righteous as Jesus. While that might be skimmed over by many a Baptist and Presbyterian, it is still book. It is Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection which gives us the power of the Cross. the infilling of the Holy Ghost which strengthens us to do good works.




The topic being discussed is will we have the mindset we have on earth in heaven? We will remember our life here, we will have knowledge of who people are, etc.

We will have a knowledge of who people are? Will we also have no knowledge of who we are?



I have a question for you. If you want to answer great, if not that fine as well.

1- Seeing we have this free will moral agent with the mindset we had on earth to do good or evil. How will we be lead by the Holy Ghost in heaven?

Are you serious?

How are you lead by Jesus Christ right now???

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think the whole confusion here is that if we can’t get it straight down here we won’t be going up there. Putting on the mind of Christ. Being transformed by the renewing of our mind. Yet, Churchanity (the industrial church complex) has a bipolar Christianity where the servants of Christ remain at their immature entry level, or worse stay in a state of spiritually retardation. What we see are people who are in constant struggle with double mindedness. We are to be MORE than overcomers? Sadly people shout their hair down and run the pews over that statement. But slowly smolder on the trip out of the parking lot to head home.

[Amanah]

There will come a point where:

death, hell, and the grave are destroyed Rev 20:14

saints are made immortal, 1 Cor 15:53

and we shall ever be with the Lord, 1 Thess 4:17

so, it seems unlikely that God would allow us to attain immortality and remain forever in His presence with any possibility that we would rebel.

[Nicodemus1968]

I think the whole confusion here is that if we can’t get it straight down here we won’t be going up there. Putting on the mind of Christ. Being transformed by the renewing of our mind. Yet, Churchanity (the industrial church complex) has a bipolar Christianity where the servants of Christ remain at their immature entry level, or worse stay in a state of spiritually retardation. What we see are people who are in constant struggle with double mindedness. We are to be MORE than overcomers? Sadly people shout their hair down and run the pews over that statement. But slowly smolder on the trip out of the parking lot to head home.

The topic at the beginning was blessings, then of course like the other threads one discussion leads to another. Someone brought up the thought and I believe it was you that said “the question is will people be actively sinning in heaven?” Someone responses No! And you immediately start saying it’s amazing how many Christians believe you can’t have a sinless life while on earth? You stated they believe that you have to die in order to be from sin. You put words in their mouth, you have not given any verses whatsoever that claim we’re able to be actively sinning while we’re in heaven with the Lord. I believe we live a sinless life on this earth, I understand what your saying that some believe we have to sin, I agree. Yet, to imply and agree that we will have a free will mind that has the ability to sin once we’re dead and with the Lord is not biblical. You have agreed with Mr. Blume about the topic of the fallen angels and the theory behind that story. The discussion is not on Earth the discussion is we’re dead and in heaven and still have the ability to sin that’s the discussion. There will be no active sin in that place, nothing carnal! We have the ability to sin on this earth, and you have the ability through Jesus Christ to remain sin free, we reign with Christ. As we die and depart from this Earth we will not have the same carnal mind we had on this earth, we will not have a free will to decide to sin and then be cast out. I understand you said there is nothing more to the verse of what Paul said “to be absent from this body, is to be present with the Lord” I believe Paul meant to be absent from this body of sin! Was Pul speaking his physical fleshy body, no he was talking about while in this body you have the sin corruptible nature it goes with, remember he told the Roman church “who shall save me from the body of this death”, in another scripture he said “I’m crucified with Christ”, and another “I die daily.” We have victory while we die from this carnal man or sixth day man (if you still believe that) while on this physical earth we have victory through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Again Paul said “for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain” he was talking about physically die from this life to be with the Lord, with the mindset you’ve brought you should immediately rebuke Paul and tell him “you mindless dupe, you can be with the Lord right now, you don’t have to physically die!” Once again, I believe you can live a holy, victorious life on this earth, you can live free from sin, the former man is crucified as long and you crucify him daily.

[mfblume]

God did not create us with free will, to not be robots, only to remove that free will later.

[mfblume]

For clarity, please in layman’s terms, do you believe that we will be able to sin in heaven? Will we be a free will moral agent in the heavens?

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Romans 7:18 AMP
[18] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness-my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not.

Romans 7:24 AMP
[24] Wretched and miserable man that I am! Who will [rescue me and] set me free from this body of death [this corrupt, mortal existence]?

Psalm 51:5 KJVS
[5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I believe sin comes from a nature that we have since our conception into life. This physical man represents the nature of sin, if we are able to commit sin to in heaven or have a free will mindset, where will that nature come from?
How does free will equate with carnality? Physicsl only realtes to sin since the fall. Not before. To say otherwise is gnosticism. Will say more when time permits.

[Nicodemus1968]

How does free will equate with carnality? Physicsl only realtes to sin since the fall. Not before. To say otherwise is gnosticism. Will say more when time permits.

How does free will equate with carnality?
How does it not?


Physicsl only realtes to sin since the fall.
I agree with that. Now, (I’m not saying you stated this) I don’t agree that heaven is the garden of Eden.


Not before. To say otherwise is gnosticism. Will say more when time permits.[/QUOTE]
Look forward to it.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
2- You struggle with Intimidation
Is that what you are currently dealing with?

Because of the way you posted your response, I saw this first.
I thought "that is an odd thing to say?" Because I was puzzled to what I would be intimated about? It isn't your Bible knowledge, I can't for the life of me remember what you look like, or what happened when we met? Therefore I searched the rest of the post to see where you dealt with my offerings. I found them in bolded font in the quoted section.

You need to look at what I said differently than what you assumed. I didn’t say you struggle with being intimidated I said you struggle with intimidation.

[Nicodemus1968]

God did not create us with free will, to not be robots, only to remove that free will later.

I believe God created us with free will, absolutely. We have the free will to chose him or not to, we have the free will to do whatever your heart desires good or bad. Yet, when we depart from this life why do we need that free will mindset? Are there temptations there, are there situations there that will cause the need for free will?

[Amanah]

I believe God created us with free will, absolutely. We have the free will to chose him or not to, we have the free will to do whatever your heart desires good or bad. Yet, when we depart from this life why do we need that free will mindset? Are there temptations there, are there situations there that will cause the need for free will?

maybe there will be no more lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, or pride of life.

[diakonos]

God did not create us with free will, to not be robots, only to remove that free will later.

Free will or free agency

[diakonos]

maybe there will be no more lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, or pride of life.

Interesting. Very interesting.

[Esaias]

I believe God created us with free will, absolutely. We have the free will to chose him or not to, we have the free will to do whatever your heart desires good or bad. Yet, when we depart from this life why do we need that free will mindset? Are there temptations there, are there situations there that will cause the need for free will?

Free will isn't "needed" or "caused" by the presence of temptations.

So again, does God have free will?

[Esaias]

Free will or free agency

Same thing?

[jediwill83]

Interesting. Very interesting.


For real!

[mfblume]

I believe God created us with free will, absolutely. We have the free will to chose him or not to, we have the free will to do whatever your heart desires good or bad. Yet, when we depart from this life why do we need that free will mindset? Are there temptations there, are there situations there that will cause the need for free will?

We will need free will because we are not going to be laying reclining along clouds and playing harps. The Kingdom will continue with who-knows-what work we will be doing. This life is only a training ground. Free will is very vital.

God did not mean for Adam to fall. If we were created with free will, and then lose it at death, Adam was never meant to die. So, why say that creation of free will was meant for temporary purposes?

Free will is not for dealing with temptations alone, by far.

[coksiw]

What is free will for you?

The ability to commit sin?
The ability to follow your flesh at choice?
The ability to reason about options and then set your will or desire to take action on one thing or the other?

I think we are debating here about semantics. If the flesh is gone, then there is no flesh to follow or be tempted by. However, the ability to reason about options and decide what to set your will on is part of the soul, and your consciousness.

[Nicodemus1968]

Free will isn't "needed" or "caused" by the presence of temptations.

So again, does God have free will?

Free will isn't "needed" or "caused" by the presence of temptations.

Correct me if I’m wrong, I believe free will is needed or exercised through our ability to chose right or wrong without any constraint. We have the complete ability to chose what we desire. For example, the Lord told Adam not to eat of the tree, was God there while the serpent was beguiling Eve? Did God step in and and get in the way from Adam partaking of the fruit as his wife did? No, God allowed Adam to make that choice. If Adam was constrained in any way, then by The very definition that would not be free will. In order for free will to exist in the afterlife there must be a reason for it, hence the discussion, there must be choices we’re going to make otherwise there is no reason for a free will mindset to be in the third heaven.

So again, does God have free will?

I will answer this directly I owe you that much. I’m going to give you the definition of free will, and we’ll discuss in further later. Lord Bless
Free-Will is defined as...
The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Now We understand God and Jesus are the same. Is God bound by ANYTHING? Free will is doing what you please with no constraint. I remember reading somewhere in the word that God cannot do certain things...

[Nicodemus1968]

We will need free will because we are not going to be laying reclining along clouds and playing harps. The Kingdom will continue with who-knows-what work we will be doing. This life is only a training ground. Free will is very vital.

God did not mean for Adam to fall. If we were created with free will, and then lose it at death, Adam was never meant to die. So, why say that creation of free will was meant for temporary purposes?

Free will is not for dealing with temptations alone, by far.

We will need free will because we are not going to be laying reclining along clouds and playing harps. The Kingdom will continue with who-knows-what work we will be doing. This life is only a training ground. Free will is very vital.

Now, totally agree with the fact we are not laying around playing harps, totally agree. The latter part of the work we are to do, is something that has been on my mind for some time, I don’t discuss that because I dont fully understand it. I do agree with you though as far as the work we will be doing. We may just be getting caught up in wording issues.

[Esaias]

Free will isn't "needed" or "caused" by the presence of temptations.

Correct me if I’m wrong, I believe free will is needed or exercised through our ability to chose right or wrong without any constraint. We have the complete ability to chose what we desire. For example, the Lord told Adam not to eat of the tree, was God there while the serpent was beguiling Eve? Did God step in and and get in the way from Adam partaking of the fruit as his wife did? No, God allowed Adam to make that choice. If Adam was constrained in any way, then by The very definition that would not be free will. In order for free will to exist in the afterlife there must be a reason for it, hence the discussion, there must be choices we’re going to make otherwise there is no reason for a free will mindset to be in the third heaven.

So again, does God have free will?

I will answer this directly I owe you that much. I’m going to give you the definition of free will, and we’ll discuss in further later. Lord Bless
Free-Will is defined as...
The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Now We understand God and Jesus are the same. Is God bound by ANYTHING? Free will is doing what you please with no constraint. I remember reading somewhere in the word that God cannot do certain things...

God intervening and preventing the carrying out of Adam's choice would be no different than a parent taking the car keys from their kid who wants to go hang out with their buddies instead of doing homework. Nobody would have lost their free will in either case.

The will is the faculty (ability) to make choices, to make volitions, to decide on a course of action, to "do" something. The will is free if its volitions and choices originate with itself, rather than from an outside source. If an outside source causes the will to do X, and the will has no ability to do anything BUT X, then the will is not free.

Temptations are not "necessary causes" of the will's volitions. They may be enticements and they may argue powerfully and so the will yields to them, but that does not mean the will is not free. The will chooses, but without the external force of necessity.

If temptation is not present, the will is still free because the will is not forced by the law of necessity to engage in any particular volition. If I remove the cookie jar, my kids can't get their hands in it, but they do not cease to have free will.

Free will is a necessary condition of moral agency. Therefore, free will is a necessary condition of moral character. We do not lose our moral character in the resurrection. Therefore we do not lose our free will, either. God has moral character, therefore He has free will.

[diakonos]

Same thing?

No.

[Esaias]

No.

Yes.

Free will means free agency.

Explain the difference, please.

[diakonos]

Yes.

Free will means free agency.

Explain the difference, please.



(If discussing with a Calvinist)

Free agency is the decisions that you make. Should I wear a sweater today, it’s cold outside. Should I fornicate today.

. Free will is the ability to choose or reject salvation.

[Nicodemus1968]

(If discussing with a Calvinist)

Free agency is the decisions that you make. Should I wear a sweater today, it’s cold outside. Should I fornicate today.

. Free will is the ability to choose or reject salvation.


:yourock

[Esaias]

(If discussing with a Calvinist)

Free agency is the decisions that you make. Should I wear a sweater today, it’s cold outside. Should I fornicate today.

. Free will is the ability to choose or reject salvation.


Sounds contrived.



A'GENCY, noun [Latin agens. See Act.]

1. The quality of moving or of exerting power; the state of being in action; action; operation; instrumentality; as, the agency of providence in the natural world.

2. The office of an agent, or factor; business of an agent entrusted with the concerns of another; as, the principal pays the charges of agency (Webster's 1828)

Free agency means a person has the capacity to act according to their will, which itself must be free else both the person and the will is simply the agent of something else, and would thus (in an unfree condition) be acting from necessity, and thus have no moral character.

If you are a free agent, your will must be free, otherwise you are a robot or puppet.

[Esaias]

How did we get onto the subject of free will, by the way?

[Nicodemus1968]

Here's my question, will their be people still actively sinning in heaven?

This is when the discussion of free will started.

:thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

How did we get onto the subject of free will, by the way?

So that goes back to the question I asked earlier in this thread. Does one have to be in a place of sinless perfection to go to heaven? What if a person baptized and filled dies before overcoming a besetting sin?

To this question I entered the discussion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Looks like this may be where it all started?


Can you enter into life with your hand, foot, or eye causing you to offend?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Free will is a necessary condition of moral agency. Therefore, free will is a necessary condition of moral character. We do not lose our moral character in the resurrection. Therefore we do not lose our free will, either. God has moral character, therefore He has free will.

Free Will is not only between good and evil, we execute our personal judgements all the time. Performing work, troubleshooting a engine problem. Everything from rebuilding a house, to cutting down a tree. Again, I believe that people are so heavily concerned with the "sin" than the salvation. As to have free will in heaven, means that we are actively sinning in heaven??? Why? Because the people who think that way are actively sinning on earth.

Brother Blume, explained in one post that to restore blessing one needs to honestly ask for forgiveness. Getting back in right standings with God. So, there is a difference to whether or not someone sins, or like 1st John 3:6 being a practitioner of sin while supposedly being under Jesus name. People confuse the two, and some people get use to practicing sin under Jesus name. Ephesians 2:6 tells us that if we are united with Christ we are already in heavenly places with Him. It would seem to me that there are some who either don't believe that, or flat out aren't even there yet. Philippians 3:10 Paul says it very powerfully. "All I want is to know Christ and the power that raised him to life. I want to suffer and die as he did." Did Paul mean that he wanted to be scourged with whips and nailed to a cross? Paul wanted to know the power that raised Christ, and take whatever was dished out to him, and die as Christ did without hesitation. Paul in the same chapter speaks of the faith, having faith which will help us endure all things. That is the maturing power that brings us to perfection in Christ Jesus. Will you sin in heaven? Why would they? Since they overcame and received their reward. They lived their lives in Christ as bond servants not performing their will, but His will.

[Evang.Benincasa]

(If discussing with a Calvinist)

Free agency is the decisions that you make. Should I wear a sweater today, it’s cold outside. Should I fornicate today.

. Free will is the ability to choose or reject salvation.


Free will is free agency.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Sounds contrived.



A'GENCY, noun [Latin agens. See Act.]

1. The quality of moving or of exerting power; the state of being in action; action; operation; instrumentality; as, the agency of providence in the natural world.

2. The office of an agent, or factor; business of an agent entrusted with the concerns of another; as, the principal pays the charges of agency (Webster's 1828)

Free agency means a person has the capacity to act according to their will, which itself must be free else both the person and the will is simply the agent of something else, and would thus (in an unfree condition) be acting from necessity, and thus have no moral character.

If you are a free agent, your will must be free, otherwise you are a robot or puppet.

That's how it works.

[Evang.Benincasa]

What is free will for you?

The ability to commit sin?
The ability to follow your flesh at choice?
The ability to reason about options and then set your will or desire to take action on one thing or the other?

I think we are debating here about semantics. If the flesh is gone, then there is no flesh to follow or be tempted by. However, the ability to reason about options and decide what to set your will on is part of the soul, and your consciousness.

Are you saying that flesh your skin and muscle?

[Evang.Benincasa]

The topic at the beginning was blessings, then of course like the other threads one discussion leads to another. Someone brought up the thought and I believe it was you that said “the question is will people be actively sinning in heaven?” Someone responses No! And you immediately start saying it’s amazing how many Christians believe you can’t have a sinless life while on earth? You stated they believe that you have to die in order to be from sin. You put words in their mouth, you have not given any verses whatsoever that claim we’re able to be actively sinning while we’re in heaven with the Lord. I believe we live a sinless life on this earth, I understand what your saying that some believe we have to sin, I agree. Yet, to imply and agree that we will have a free will mind that has the ability to sin once we’re dead and with the Lord is not biblical. You have agreed with Mr. Blume about the topic of the fallen angels and the theory behind that story. The discussion is not on Earth the discussion is we’re dead and in heaven and still have the ability to sin that’s the discussion. There will be no active sin in that place, nothing carnal! We have the ability to sin on this earth, and you have the ability through Jesus Christ to remain sin free, we reign with Christ. As we die and depart from this Earth we will not have the same carnal mind we had on this earth, we will not have a free will to decide to sin and then be cast out. I understand you said there is nothing more to the verse of what Paul said “to be absent from this body, is to be present with the Lord” I believe Paul meant to be absent from this body of sin! Was Pul speaking his physical fleshy body, no he was talking about while in this body you have the sin corruptible nature it goes with, remember he told the Roman church “who shall save me from the body of this death”, in another scripture he said “I’m crucified with Christ”, and another “I die daily.” We have victory while we die from this carnal man or sixth day man (if you still believe that) while on this physical earth we have victory through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Again Paul said “for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain” he was talking about physically die from this life to be with the Lord, with the mindset you’ve brought you should immediately rebuke Paul and tell him “you mindless dupe, you can be with the Lord right now, you don’t have to physically die!” Once again, I believe you can live a holy, victorious life on this earth, you can live free from sin, the former man is crucified as long and you crucify him daily.

in Romans 7:24 Paul wasn't speaking of himself. Brother Blume was correct about what he said about the angels. Brother Blume isn't teaching Jewish mythology.

[Nicodemus1968]

in Romans 7:24 Paul wasn't speaking of himself. Brother Blume was correct about what he said about the angels. Brother Blume isn't teaching Jewish mythology.

in Romans 7:24 Paul wasn't speaking of himself.

Ill look into that. I always took it as Paul wrote to the church in Rome expressing what he was dealing with to the church. Using himself as the example. Thanks for your insight

Brother Blume was correct about what he said about the angels. Brother Blume isn't teaching Jewish mythology.

I could’ve been wrong here, with this instance Bro. Blume said “Angels fell due to sin”. I assumed he’s referring to the “Sunday School” story that we all know “Lucifer” was the MC of music, gets kicked out of heaven because he desires to be like God, from there takes a 1/3 of the angels with him. Ill ask Bro. Blume to expound on his reference from the statement he made.

[Esaias]

in Romans 7:24 Paul wasn't speaking of himself.

Ill look into that. I always took it as Paul wrote to the church in Rome expressing what he was dealing with to the church. Using himself as the example. Thanks for your insight



Paul was not describing his current condition. An apostle, teaching the church, and saying "Oh by the way, I happen to be a wretched slave to sin, in bondage to iniquity"? After he just got done writing chapter 6? No, rather he was speaking of the relationship between God's commandments and the sinner. Notice he says he was alive apart from the law once, but then the commandment came and sin killed him by means of the commandment. He uses the first person to put himself in the place of the reader, rather than going on about how "this is YOUR condition". He is describing a Jew under conviction, seeking righteousness prior to regeneration as a Christian. Thus, chapter 8, which describes a completely opposite condition. Chapter 7 describes the all too common religion of resolves and self efforts, without reliance on the power of the Holy Ghost.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Paul was not describing his current condition. An apostle, teaching the church, and saying "Oh by the way, I happen to be a wretched slave to sin, in bondage to iniquity"? After he just got done writing chapter 6? No, rather he was speaking of the relationship between God's commandments and the sinner. Notice he says he was alive apart from the law once, but then the commandment came and sin killed him by means of the commandment. He uses the first person to put himself in the place of the reader, rather than going on about how "this is YOUR condition". He is describing a Jew under conviction, seeking righteousness prior to regeneration as a Christian. Thus, chapter 8, which describes a completely opposite condition. Chapter 7 describes the all too common religion of resolves and self efforts, without reliance on the power of the Holy Ghost.

:highfive :thumbsup :happydance

[mfblume]

in Romans 7:24 Paul wasn't speaking of himself.

Ill look into that. I always took it as Paul wrote to the church in Rome expressing what he was dealing with to the church. Using himself as the example. Thanks for your insight

Paul was actually putting himself in the shoes of someone who did not know the truths of Romans 6, and more or less walks us through the mindest of someone, as he put himself into the picture to make it more real and ore easily explain the point. He was not struggling as the narrative in Ro 7 shows, but was speaking as though he were someone who was. We know he was not struggling himself because he gave the answer to the entire dilemma as follows:

Romans 7:24-25.. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? ..(25).. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Who would deliver him He thanked God. And how would God deliver him? Through Christ. Then he summed up the scenario that he was describing.

"So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin..."

When he said he served God's Law with his mind, that was a reference to the scenario in which he put himself for illustrative purposes, when he said he "would not" do the evil he found himself doing. WOULD NOT, simply means he did not will to do that evil. His mind agreed with the Law of God and that's why he consented to the law that it was good. That's why he WILLED to do good in verse 18. But when he tried to carry out what he intended IN IS MIND, he found the sin in his flesh disallowed him from doing it, which is the reason that verse 18 says that the ability to do what he willed to do was absent.

With the flesh he served the law of sin. That meant that he was unable to carry out the Law of God that he willed to carry out, but instead sinned. As far as his mind was concerned, and what his will intended to do, he was serving God! But that's not good enough. ONe has to carry it out with his body and actually OBEY the law, which he found he was unable to do.

Again, though, he was only putting himself in the shoes of someone who was struggling.

Another reason we know Paul was not describing his actual experience, but speaking in illustration to make a point, was that Ro 8:1-2 is the solution to the entire problem!

If he served the law of sin WITH HIS FLESH (verse 25), then we're meant to keep reading as though there is not chapter break, and see how he therefore said that we must not walk after the flesh. To serve the law of sin with the flesh means we must not walk after that flesh!

Serving God after the flesh is what 7:6 called the oldness of the letter. Walking after the flesh is not just committing sins like adultery and murder. It is trying to serve God in the oldness of the letter. That's why 7:6 is in this same chapter.

Serving God in the oldness of the letter or in the newness of the Spirit are each totally different MANNERS of serving God. One works and the other fails. The rest of chapter 7 shows us how walking after the flesh by serving in oldness of the letter fails. Then Chapter 8:1-2 shows us that we must walk after the Spirit, in the newness of Spirit.


I don't mind saying that I got an extremely clear understanding of this after studying and praying about it for years. I wrote a book entitled SIN LESS, and it uses many stories from the Old Testamnet that were meant to teach us spiritual lessons of this very truth, which I contained in the book.




Brother Blume was correct about what he said about the angels. Brother Blume isn't teaching Jewish mythology.

I could’ve been wrong here, with this instance Bro. Blume said “Angels fell due to sin”. I assumed he’s referring to the “Sunday School” story that we all know “Lucifer” was the MC of music, gets kicked out of heaven because he desires to be like God, from there takes a 1/3 of the angels with him. Ill ask Bro. Blume to expound on his reference from the statement he made.

As I wrote to you in response to a message you sent me, the bible does not teach HOW the angels fell or in what circumstances they fell. It only says they did and it was related to knowing better and not doing what they knew to do. Lucifer was not the one who became satan. Lucifer was a Babylonian king. The one in Ezekiel 28 who was in the Garden and fell was likely Adam.

[mfblume]

Where I differ with Esaias in Romans 7 is that I believe it DOES apply to a born again believer who does not understand the true way to serve the Lord. In fact, I believe ALL Christians will make the mistake of Romans 7's problem if they do not learn the facts of Romans 6 first. And most do not understand Romans 6 at all.

The reason I know that Romans 7's problem applies to born again believers is because the same understanding is taught to the Galatians in Gal 5. Let me explain.

Paul did not speak of futility in overcoming sin due to the words written from the last verse of Chapter 7 and the first verse of Chapter 8.

Romans 7:25-8:1 …So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In summarizing the problem he described in 7 18-24, Paul stated that he served the law of sin every time he utilized his flesh to do the will of God. He referred to such a mistaken method as having served God in the oldness of the letter. Because the use of the flesh only led to servitude to the law of sin (noted in 7:25), Paul told us to stop walking after that same flesh (noted in 8:1).

This tells us that Paul did not at all imply that we can never hope to rise above trying to do good but never doing it. He said it is a matter of which “walk” we practice. It depends upon how we serve God

It is of the utmost importance that we realize we can stop the tormenting cycle of wanting to please God by our behavior and never succeeding.

Folks have told me that Paul flatly stated that he tried to do good and evil was present with him instead. They said this proved that Paul was never able to rise above such failure. What many fail to realize is that Paul wrote in a certain style of having put himself in the shoes of someone who served God in the oldness of the letter. He did not actually relate his past experiences, as such. He was writing hypothetically.

In order to walk us through the reasoning that would help us truly understand this entire issue, Paul wrote in the first person as though he did what most people instinctively do – walk in the wrong manner.

Some people believe Romans 7 described the never-ending peril of Christians to never successfully overcome the trend of committing evil. But others are of the opinion that Paul’s words in Romans 7 described his life before he was a Christian. They propose that Paul’s words do not even apply to us as believers. So, we have two contrary and opposing arguments.

If those words only concerned people who were not Christians, then Paul would not have written to the Galatians about the same general problem. The Galatians were Christians. In fact, the Galatian Christians tried to live under Law and were rebuked by Paul for having done so. So, it was not a matter of Paul’s descriptions not applying to Christians. Christians can confuse the manner to successfully serve God.

When he wrote about our need to not walk after the flesh in order to avoid condemnation, Paul told us to instead walk after the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

He said the same thing to the Galatians.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

The lusts of the flesh are fulfilled when a person tries to do good through use of the flesh. One can only fail with such a method. That is the very failure that Paul described in Romans 7:18-24. All of that is avoided by walking after the Spirit, though! Now, if that was not a problem that Christians might face, then why did Paul admonish the Galatians as Christians to walk after the Spirit in order to not commit sin?

So, we have three points that prove Paul taught the means to succeed in overcoming sin:
Paul spoke to the Romans about deliverance from the body of death.

Romans 7:25-8:1 declared the need to not walk after the flesh since the flesh cannot serve the Law of God.

The same admonition was given to the Galatian Christians to walk after the Spirit lest they fail, proving that such a problem was not restricted to those under Old Covenant Law.

This raises another point. It may not be actual and conscious attempts to serve God using Old Testament Law when Christians fail like that, but they might as well have used the Law by the way they serve God. To take the New Testament writings that teach how Christians should behave, and seek to fulfill them by trying our fleshly best, is using human will power alone. That is the same thing as serving in oldness of the letter! The New Testament was not meant to be used like that.

Notice the last phrase in Galatians 5:17, “so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.” This was clearly written to Christians about Christians. That is the same phraseology used in Romans 7 where some people think Paul’s perils did not describe those of Christians. Paul said he was unable to perform the good that he “would.” That is archaic English for, “The good things I wanted to accomplish were things I could never accomplish.” Read the two passages together:

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not:…

Galatians 5:17 …so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This is another indication that the failure of Romans 7 is not just limited to those under Old Testament Law. Paul warned the Galatians how they would fail as well. The remedy, just as it was in Romans 7, was to walk after the Spirit!

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Some might ask why Paul stated he was “sold under sin” if he wrote of the peril that Christians can experience in Romans 7. Christians have been set free from sin! How could Paul have written about his life as a Christian if he said he was “sold under sin”?

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The reason he said he was sold under sin was due to the consequence into which he actually put himself. Christians do this all the time! They do it due to lack of the realization that service to God using power of the flesh will simply cause sin in our flesh to dominate us. So, in effect, we sell ourselves to sin as its slaves when we use our flesh to serve God. Note the term “yield” as Paul used it in these following verses:

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Here we see that Paul already warned his readers of the mistake of yielding themselves as servants to sin in Chapter 6 before he wrote the words of Chapter 7:14. Yielding ourselves as servants to sin is a mistake we must avoid making. Becoming a servant by yielding is selling oneself to slavery! It was our making! The responsibility is upon ourselves. The reference to yielding to sin implies that we are responsible for the peril! So, the state of having been sold under sin in 7:14 is a self-inflicted peril, albeit an unintentional one. So, we cannot use Romans 7:14 to say that Paul’s words were not a warning to Christians simply because Christians are not under Law.

[Esaias]

Chapter 7 describes the all too common religion of resolves and self efforts, without reliance on the power of the Holy Ghost.

Where I differ with Esaias in Romans 7 is that I believe it DOES apply to a born again believer who does not understand the true way to serve the Lord. In fact, I believe ALL Christians will make the mistake of Romans 7's problem if they do not learn the facts of Romans 6 first.

I never denied that a Christian could fall into the Romans 7 trap. I do however believe Paul's intent was to contrast the experiences of those under grace with those under law. A Christian who attempts to live by their own power apart from the Spirit will find themselves in the same place as the sinner under conviction who attempts reforming their life without regeneration. Because they both are doing the same thing. If you want what someone has, do what they do. In this case, the corrolary is true: doing what the legalist does gets you the legalist's results.

[diakonos]

Once again, in CALVINISM free will only refers to the ability to choose salvation- which a Calvinist believes is impossible.

Every OTHER decision a person makes is referred to as free agency.

Free will is free agency.

[Esaias]

Once again, in CALVINISM free will only refers to the ability to choose salvation- which a Calvinist believes is impossible.

Every OTHER decision a person makes is referred to as free agency.



So CALVINISM makes up its own definitions to suit its theories. Neat trick.

[mfblume]

So CALVINISM makes up its own definitions to suit its theories. Neat trick.

:spit

[mfblume]

I never denied that a Christian could fall into the Romans 7 trap. I do however believe Paul's intent was to contrast the experiences of those under grace with those under law. A Christian who attempts to live by their own power apart from the Spirit will find themselves in the same place as the sinner under conviction who attempts reforming their life without regeneration. Because they both are doing the same thing. If you want what someone has, do what they do. In this case, the corrolary is true: doing what the legalist does gets you the legalist's results.

True, though I feel Romans 7 is primarily dealing with born again believers WHO KNEW NOT the truths of Romans 6, which is why Paul repeatedly asked "KNOW YE NOT?" If we do not understand that we must know we died with Christ, reckon it to be true for ourselves, and then yield to God with that understanding, we WILL repeat the struggle of Romans 7. So, Paul appealed to what they did not about Law in Romans 7 to help them realize what they had to know about Romans 6, and walked them through the struggle as if he struggled when he actually did not.