View Full Version : Dr. Oz Promotes RFID Microchip Implants For People
Amanah
12-13-2019, 04:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nkNewmMylc&fbclid=IwAR0ooA33OtglelHX-BwNdO9UyeorzzmnZ1W78gQ6Nt-1FP8Bco2GbOjTm9Q
Amanah
12-13-2019, 04:02 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL-8MKmMv24
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 06:09 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nkNewmMylc&fbclid=IwAR0ooA33OtglelHX-BwNdO9UyeorzzmnZ1W78gQ6Nt-1FP8Bco2GbOjTm9Q
Do you believe this is what John saw?
Amanah
12-13-2019, 06:46 AM
Do you believe this is what John saw?
I can't see it as "what John saw" through any of the schools of prophecy, Preterist, Historicist, or Futurist.
But, It does seem to have some spiritual significance to me in that we seem to be moving towards a dictatorship of some sort, a type of bondage, potential loss of freedom?
Bro Benincasa, tell me what you see? do you see America heading toward a judgment of some sort for the wickedness of our society?
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 07:30 AM
I can't see it as "what John saw" through any of the schools of prophecy, Preterist, Historicist, or Futurist.
But, It does seem to have some spiritual significance to me in that we seem to be moving towards a dictatorship of some sort, a type of bondage, potential loss of freedom?
Bro Benincasa, tell me what you see? do you see America heading toward a judgment of some sort for the wickedness of our society?
I see what history had seen with any society moving forward towards Empire.
If anyone has seen me post Sir John Glub’s Death of Empire they would know what I believe. Are we more or less wicked than Rome? More or less wicked Mongol Golden Horde? What about Medieval Italy? History is a great teacher, one that is mostly ignored. Our problem is we believe we are in the worst of times and the best of times. No matter what generation that may be. Every generation will always see themselves in the pages of the Revelation. In the Kali Yuga. Every generation as the final generation. I’m good friends with a preacher who made the RFID computer chip the bread and butter of his ministry. I was told back in the 90s that everyone was going to be made to take the Mark/chip. Mikhail Gorbachev was the Antichrist. We are going into 2020, my lands give me something that’s real. Instead of showing me a butane lighter flash, fire, expecting me to stand in awe like some Aboriginal tribesman. I have been waiting for the jack boots since I was a child, and my father was building a bomb shelter in the basement. Am I saying don’t be prepared for anything. No, but let’s not try to cram all this foolishness into the pages of an ancient document that isn’t addressing these things. Donald J Trump, Ronald Reagan can’t not be 666. Because no one would of recognize those names. Why? Because we are told that it was the FIRST CENTURY reader who was to have the wisdom to figure the number name out. Hey, but this is simple right? RFID would I get one? No! Is it because of a religious warning? No! It is because I don’t want anymore leashes, like cell phone, computer, automobile, airplane, etc. all tracking, all surveillance. Photo recognition? We got it all over the place. It is here, but did the Bible concern itself with that. No, because the Bible is trying to get us above and beyond all the teenage hysteria. Actually trying to have us with mature cool heads in a time when everyone else is unhinged.
Amanah
12-13-2019, 08:07 AM
I see what history had seen with any society moving forward towards Empire.
If anyone has seen me post Sir John Glub’s Death of Empire they would know what I believe. Are we more or less wicked than Rome? More or less wicked Mongel Golden Horde? What about Medieval Italy? History is a great teacher, one that is mostly ignored. Our problem is we believe we are in the worst of times and the best of times. No matter what generation that may be. Every generation will always see themselves in the pages of the Revelation. In the Kali Yuga. Every generation as the final generation. I’m good friends with a preacher who made the RFID computer chip the bread and butter of his ministry. I was told back in the 90s that everyone was going to be made to take the Mark/chip. Mikhail Gorbachev was the Antichrist. We are going into 2020, my lands give me something that’s real. Instead of showing me a butane lighter flash, fire, expecting me to stand in awe like some Aboriginal tribesman. I have been waiting for the jack boots since I was a child, and my father was building a bomb shelter in the basement. Am I saying don’t be prepaired for anything. No, but let’s not try to cram all this foolishness into the pages of an ancient document that isn’t addressing these things. Donald J Trump, Ronald Regan can’t not be 666. Becacuse no one would of recognize those names. Why? Because we are told that it was the FIRST CENTURY reader who was to have the wisdom to figure the number name out. Hey, but this is simple right? RFID would I get one? No! Is it because of a religious warning? No! It is because I don’t want anymore leashes, like cell phone, computer, automobile, airplane, etc. all tracking, all surveillance. Photo recognition? We got it all over the place. It is here, but did the Bible concern itself with that. No, because the Bible is trying to get us above and beyound all the teenage hysteria. Actually trying to have us with Marie cool heads in a time when everyone else is unhinged.
true, we don't need prophetic utterance to see where we are headed.
Nicodemus1968
12-13-2019, 08:28 AM
I see what history had seen with any society moving forward towards Empire.
If anyone has seen me post Sir John Glub’s Death of Empire they would know what I believe. Are we more or less wicked than Rome? More or less wicked Mongel Golden Horde? What about Medieval Italy? History is a great teacher, one that is mostly ignored. Our problem is we believe we are in the worst of times and the best of times. No matter what generation that may be. Every generation will always see themselves in the pages of the Revelation. In the Kali Yuga. Every generation as the final generation. I’m good friends with a preacher who made the RFID computer chip the bread and butter of his ministry. I was told back in the 90s that everyone was going to be made to take the Mark/chip. Mikhail Gorbachev was the Antichrist. We are going into 2020, my lands give me something that’s real. Instead of showing me a butane lighter flash, fire, expecting me to stand in awe like some Aboriginal tribesman. I have been waiting for the jack boots since I was a child, and my father was building a bomb shelter in the basement. Am I saying don’t be prepaired for anything. No, but let’s not try to cram all this foolishness into the pages of an ancient document that isn’t addressing these things. Donald J Trump, Ronald Regan can’t not be 666. Becacuse no one would of recognize those names. Why? Because we are told that it was the FIRST CENTURY reader who was to have the wisdom to figure the number name out. Hey, but this is simple right? RFID would I get one? No! Is it because of a religious warning? No! It is because I don’t want anymore leashes, like cell phone, computer, automobile, airplane, etc. all tracking, all surveillance. Photo recognition? We got it all over the place. It is here, but did the Bible concern itself with that. No, because the Bible is trying to get us above and beyound all the teenage hysteria. Actually trying to have us with Marie cool heads in a time when everyone else is unhinged.
I couldn’t agree more..
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 09:11 AM
https://www.endtime.com/articles-endtime-magazine/the-implantable-rfid-microchip-the-mark-of-the-beast/
Will this technology become the Mark of the Beast?
The technologies are advancing at such a rapid rate that by the time the Mark of the Beast arrives it may look nothing like what I have just described. We are certainly closer than ever before; just thirty years ago there was no Internet and the technology to mark someone and keep track of all of those marks would have been impossible.
What we know for sure is there will be a Mark of the Beast as the Bible has prophesied, and we will be able to recognize it.
So how will we know if RFID implants become the Mark of the Beast? The Bible gives us clues so we can recognize the one and only Mark of the Beast spoken of in the Bible.
It will be a mark of some kind no matter how small or a marker or marking process. Revelation 13:16
It must involve the head and/or the hand. Revelation 13:16
It will involve a name that when calculated is 666. This will be the number or name of a man who is the Antichrist. Revelation 13:18
Without it you will not be able to buy or sell. This could possibly mean a work verification system or perhaps it will be linked to all your finances. Revelation 13:17
In order to receive this mark, a person will be required to worship the beast that is the Antichrist. This could be a loyalty oath, a contractual agreement, it could require your signature for acceptance of conditions or literally you might have to bow and worship the Antichrist. Revelation 14:9
Whatever is used for the Mark of the Beast we will recognize it.
If anyone refuses this mark they will be put to death.
But don’t despair.
There is a reward for all who do not take this mark.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 09:16 AM
https://images.theconversation.com/files/266913/original/file-20190401-177163-usyuq3.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=699%2C790%2C2679%2C2203&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip
And he causeth ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 09:21 AM
http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/ap/88ab0420-ed2f-4ba7-8cda-85a76b1202ff.grid-6x2.jpg
And the nations were angry
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 09:24 AM
Here is an informational video on what should we expect in just a few months.
https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/distant-thunder.jpg
coksiw
12-13-2019, 09:37 AM
All of that is not the mark of the beast, but the technology advancement that will allow the mark of the beast to be implemented quickly, so the prophecy is on its way of fulfillment.
It is not about the technology but the spiritual significance it carries: if you accept the mark, it is because you worshiped the beast, therefore you can be part of its kingdom and its economy.
That's not something new. You already need to be legal in a country to fully participate in its economy. This, which is a civil law things now, will reach a spiritual level during the end times, and will be implemented with much more controlling mechanism than just paperwork.
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 09:39 AM
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/60/ca/5c60cadd893a8fb1ed3f7fcfea9346f1.jpg
Edward Bernays would be proud.
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 09:43 AM
All of that is not the mark of the beast, but the technology advancement that will allow the mark of the beast to be implemented quickly, so the prophecy is on its way of fulfillment.
It is not about the technology but the spiritual significance it carries: if you accept the mark, it is because you worshiped the beast, therefore you can be part of its kingdom and its economy.
That's not something new. You already need to be legal in a country to fully participate in its economy. This, which is a civil law things now, will reach a spiritual level during the end times, and will be implemented with much more controlling mechanism than just paperwork.
You seem to know a lot.
So, what exactly is the mark of the beast?
coksiw
12-13-2019, 09:49 AM
You seem to know a lot.
So, what exactly is the mark of the beast?
Credit cards :heeheehee
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 09:55 AM
Credit cards :heeheehee
Are all men required under law and penalty of corporal punishment to own a credit card?
coksiw
12-13-2019, 09:56 AM
You seem to know a lot.
So, what exactly is the mark of the beast?
I don't know what exactly is going to be, but we do have already plenty of technology advancement to make it happen.
What we see in the press is just the vision of some people about using those technology for different "reasons" (medical, crime control, etc...).
As somebody once said (paraphrased), "let the ideas be developed, documented and published, so when a moment of crisis comes, we can have plenty of them already developed and could then be considered as a solution to our current problem"
coksiw
12-13-2019, 09:58 AM
Are all men required under law and penalty of corporal punishment to own a credit card?
Yes, and Dave Ramsey is a prophet.
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 10:02 AM
I don't know what exactly is going to be, but we do have already plenty of technology advancement to make it happen.
What we see in the press is just the vision of some people about using those technology for different "reasons" (medical, crime control, etc...).
As somebody once said (paraphrased), "let the ideas be developed, documented and published, so when a moment of crisis comes, we can have plenty of them already developed and could then be considered as a solution to our current problem"
Tell me please what is being said here to those living in the first century A.D.?
Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 10:25 AM
“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.”
― Edward Bernays, Propaganda
coksiw
12-13-2019, 10:32 AM
Tell me please what is being said here to those living in the first century A.D.?
Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;" (Rev 13:11), that makes people to worship the Beast. Verse 15 even talks about dead penalty for those that don't worship. Verse 16 and 17 talks about implementing a mark for people to take to be able to participate in the economy.
However in verse says that there are three options: the mark, the name of the beast or the number of his name. Perhaps, the name and the number of his name was an initial implementation that didn't work but was fathered in, or perhaps it is only reserved for its official. IDK.
The verse 18 is describing an encoding of his name: perhaps is birth name, or its public name, or its symbolic name representing its authority. IDK.
Are you trying to say that that verse is only relevant to first century christians?
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 10:45 AM
Are you trying to say that that verse is only relevant to first century christians?
Trying to say?
coksiw, please read Revelation 13:18 again.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Does it say let him who will live in a latter time? Let him who is dwelling on the earth at the time of these events? Let him who will arise at the time of the beast understand the beast's number? You would agree that this ancient document was written to churches in the late first century. Therefore you would agree that the document is asking the same group in the first century to figure out the number name with their wise understanding? How would these first century Roman Diaspora Judeans and native Judeans to Judah get any future named American, Russian, Italian, or Chinese leader in their investigation of the number name? Also why would John use the word χάραγμα? Which means to emboss with raised symbol, like a signet on wax, placed on a seal? Read it again, and think of what they would be thinking 2,000 years ago. If not, then the book was nothing more than blank pages for 2,000 years and counting.
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 10:53 AM
http://www.cabrillo.edu/~creyes/classes/MistakesWereMade.Sample.pdf
Read this
coksiw
12-13-2019, 11:06 AM
Trying to say?
coksiw, please read Revelation 13:18 again.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Does it say let him who will live in a latter time? Let him who is dwelling on the earth at the time of these events? Let him who will arise at the time of the beast understand the beast's number? You would agree that this ancient document was written to churches in the late first century. Therefore you would agree that the document is asking the same group in the first century to figure out the number name with their wise understanding? How would these first century Roman Diaspora Judeans and native Judeans to Judah get any future named American, Russian, Italian, or Chinese leader in their investigation of the number name? Also why would John use the word χάραγμα? Which means to emboss with raised symbol, like a signet on wax, placed on a seal? Read it again, and think of what they would be thinking 2,000 years ago. If not, then the book was nothing more than blank pages for 2,000 years and counting.
You are putting more meaning and reasoning to that prophecy than it actually has.
It is prophecy, and it may be fulfilled in a way none of us expected it. Prophecy is specially beneficial for those that go through it, as a way of hope and warnings.
Do you believe the prophecies of the beasts were already fulfilled?
Do you believe the Lord already came and took his saints?
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 11:39 AM
You are putting more meaning and reasoning to that prophecy than it actually has.
It is prophecy, and it may be fulfilled in a way none of us expected it. Prophecy is specially beneficial for those that go through it, as a way of hope and warnings.
Do you believe the prophecies of the beasts were already fulfilled?
Do you believe the Lord already came and took his saints?
I'm doing nothing more than logically looking at the wording and its historical context?
No more than reading a newspaper from 1965 telling me that I may acquire a 1965 Cadillac if I make it to Fort Lauderdale Chevy on Xmas. coksiw, this isn't rocket science, this is simple deduction concerning an ancient document's wording within its own time frame and audience. :heeheehee
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 11:40 AM
http://www.cabrillo.edu/~creyes/classes/MistakesWereMade.Sample.pdf
Read this
coksiw read this.
http://www.cabrillo.edu/~creyes/classes/MistakesWereMade.Sample.pdf
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 11:47 AM
“Most people, when directly confronted by evidence that they are wrong, do not change their point of view or course of action but justify it even more tenaciously. Even irrefutable evidence is rarely enough to pierce the mental armor of self-justification.”
― Carol Tavris, Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts
coksiw
12-13-2019, 11:55 AM
“Most people, when directly confronted by evidence that they are wrong, do not change their point of view or course of action but justify it even more tenaciously. Even irrefutable evidence is rarely enough to pierce the mental armor of self-justification.”
― Carol Tavris, Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts
That’s assuming you are right and I don’t know what I’m talk ing about.
You didn’t answer my questions, which makes me think you are preterist or partial preterist. I simply prefer to not debate much about prophecy, especially with people that hold those ideas.
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 12:12 PM
That’s assuming you are right and I don’t know what I’m talk ing about.
You didn’t answer my questions, which makes me think you are preterist or partial preterist. I simply prefer to not debate much about prophecy, especially with people that hold those ideas.
Ok, I am asking you the questions for you to be able to explain what the verse is actually saying to its ORIGINAL readers. You are asking me questions to get out of the quandary you have seemingly found yourself in. If I am A, B, or C you have found an out and therefore justify yourself to have no obligation to continue this discussion. Let's look at somethings here, you have posted IDK,how many times? Then in this recent post claim you don't really know what you are talking about? But, the eschatological schools of thought you brought up are wrong? Because what you are telling me is that you are wrong yourself because you don't even know if and what you are claiming here is even Biblical? Was the document originally intended for the First Century A.D. audience to read, and understand? Especially where they are asked to figure out Gematria which is inserted into a portion of the document? What eschatological school would have to do with this?
Sweet love of Jesus, Corkscrew, welcome to religion. You have checked your brain at the door and laid the Bible on the floor. Good God from Zion!
coksiw
12-13-2019, 12:30 PM
Ok, I am asking you the questions for you to be able to explain what the verse is actually saying to its ORIGINAL readers. You are asking me questions to get out of the quandary you have seemingly found yourself in. If I am A, B, or C you have found an out and therefore justify yourself to have no obligation to continue this discussion. Let's look at somethings here, you have posted IDK,how many times? Then in this recent post claim you don't really know what you are talking about? But, the eschatological schools of thought you brought up are wrong? Because what you are telling me is that you are wrong yourself because you don't even know if and what you are claiming here is even Biblical? Was the document originally intended for the First Century A.D. audience to read, and understand? Especially where they are asked to figure out Gematria which is inserted into a portion of the document? What eschatological school would have to do with this?
Sweet love of Jesus, Corkscrew, welcome to religion. You have checked your brain at the door and laid the Bible on the floor. Good God from Zion!
Could you please stop attacking me as a person?
IDK doesn’t mean I am unsure of my doctrine but that I’m unsure how God is going to fulfill his word in details regarding prophecy. He gives a little bit here and a little bit there and everything will be clear that day.
The Jews people had a hard time understanding the prophecies of the messiah. How is it come he is going to be a king but also be despised and suffer dead? How is it come that he is a man but some prophecies say he is God with us? Some got some stuck on making sense of it, concluding that it will be an anointed king and discharging the rest, that they ended up missing the day of the visitation.
I prefer to recognize this and only believe what it is written and add no more, waiting for the clarity to show the day things are fulfill. I believe in the literal method (aka gramatical historical method) of interpreting my Bible, and I can defend it. The school of preterism in all forms have an inconsistent method of interpretation: literal method when it fits, and allegorical when there is a bump in the road. Garbage, the same error of the Alexandrian school.
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 12:44 PM
Could you please stop attacking me as a person?
You aren't being attacked, let's not add that as a reason.
IDK doesn’t mean I am unsure of my doctrine but that I’m unsure how God is going to fulfill his word in details regarding prophecy. He gives a little bit here and a little bit there and everything will be clear that day.
We aren't even talking about that, nothing on how it is to be fulfilled, but what is the sentence actually saying? Who is the sentence speaking to originally? My lands, do you know how many unchurched secular Joe and Jane on the street see that? Like they see NAME in Matthew 28:19 meaning one NAME. :heeheehee
The Jews people had a hard time understanding the prophecies of the messiah.
Except for Nicodemus and the people who agreed with him that Jesus was from God. Look, those who had a hard time with prophecy killed Jesus. Those who didn't became His follower. Pretty easy. But I was asking you to read the verse in light of its age and its audience. Would they expect themselves to figure out something YOU believe is 2,000 years in their future?
How is it come he is going to be a king but also be despised and suffer dead? How is it come that he is a man but some prophecies say he is God with us? Some got some stuck on making sense of it, concluding that it will be an anointed king and discharging the rest, that they ended up missing the day of the visitation.
Again, those people screamed crucify didn't understand. Only those who understood the scripture were with Him in the garden. Yet, you were asked to read one verse.
I prefer to recognize this and only believe what it is written and add no more, waiting for the clarity to show the day things are fulfill. I believe in the literal method (aka gramatical historical method) of interpreting my Bible, and I can defend it. The school of preterism in all forms have an inconsistent method of interpretation: literal method when it fits, and allegorical when there is a bump in the road. Garbage, the same error of the Alexandrian school.
Ok, group X is wrong in your determination, wonderful. You literalize the whole book of Revelation, fantastic. Ok tell me who was to have wisdom to figure out who the Beast was? The people who the document originally landed in their laps, or no one for 2,000 years later until the advent of technology?
coksiw
12-13-2019, 12:48 PM
Sweet love of Jesus, Corkscrew, welcome to religion. You have checked your brain at the door and laid the Bible on the floor.
What is this EB?, what are trying to achieve with those offenses. Did I have treat you like that? Did I nick name you offensively? Did I have call you stupid by telling you to "use your brain"? Don't you think that is disrespectful?
Feel free to show dislike for doctrines, but please, it would be great if you stop attacking people.
How is it come you haven't been banned yet with that behavior sir?
coksiw
12-13-2019, 01:00 PM
You aren't being attacked, let's not add that as a reason.
We aren't even talking about that, nothing on how it is to be fulfilled, but what is the sentence actually saying? Who is the sentence speaking to originally? My lands, do you know how many unchurched secular Joe and Jane on the street see that? Like they see NAME in Matthew 28:19 meaning one NAME. :heeheehee
Except for Nicodemus and the people who agreed with him that Jesus was from God. Look, those who had a hard time with prophecy killed Jesus. Those who didn't became His follower. Pretty easy. But I was asking you to read the verse in light of its age and its audience. Would they expect themselves to figure out something YOU believe is 2,000 years in their future?
Again, those people screamed crucify didn't understand. Only those who understood the scripture were with Him in the garden. Yet, you were asked to read one verse.
Ok, group X is wrong in your determination, wonderful. You literalize the whole book of Revelation, fantastic. Ok tell me who was to have wisdom to figure out who the Beast was? The people who the document originally landed in their laps, or no one for 2,000 years later until the advent of technology?
I don't see what you see in that verse. I do see an encoding, and the original audience probably understood it as they were familiar with the encoding system. The encoding is one more sign of many that will need to be fulfilled.
Probably the name of some Ceasar encoded perfectly to 666, but there are tons of other signs that needed to be fulfilled for that guy to be the beast of revelation.
You literalize the whole book of Revelation
The literal method is not literalizing.
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 01:06 PM
What is this EB?, what are trying to achieve with those offenses. Did I have treat you like that? Did I nick name you offensively? Did I have call you stupid by telling you to "use your brain"? Don't you think that is disrespectful?
Feel free to show dislike for doctrines, but please, it would be great if you stop attacking people.
How is it come you haven't been banned yet with that behavior sir?
Sorry, I would of done it way sooner. I can't pronounce coksiw so I call you corkscrew. First time I posted it in a thread. I should of done it way before. The quote you removed from my post is answering a very religious unthinking statement you made. Which I can only answer by saying you are making a mistake. That mistake is turning your mind over to religion and its mantras which are repeated and never examined. If you want me banned then report the post. Reporting a post should be able to silence any questions to you.
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 01:15 PM
I don't see what you see in that verse. I do see an encoding, and the original audience probably understood it as they were familiar with the encoding system. The encoding is one more sign of many that will need to be fulfilled.
Probably the name of some Ceasar encoded perfectly to 666, but there are tons of other signs that needed to be fulfilled for that guy to be the beast of revelation.
The literal method is not literalizing.
Probably the name of a Caesar?
Do we still have the line of Julian here today?
The reader is told to figure out the number of the beast, the reader is told to do this. The logical interpretation is that the reader originally lived 2,000 years ago, and that reader was told to use a method of interpretation which was commonly used by Greeks and Judeans. The Diaspora Judean would of had no problem figuring out the number name. But my original point is that if they weren't to figure out the name 2,000 years ago, then why aren't they told that? The mark and the number name go together. If they figure out the number name they figure out the meaning of the mark.Simple, it really has nothing to do with eschatology at this point. But reading an ancient document.
...
The school of preterism in all forms have an inconsistent method of interpretation: literal method when it fits, and allegorical when there is a bump in the road. Garbage, the same error of the Alexandrian school.
Yes, because there is no way that multiple authors with multiple purposes and writing styles could ever have their writings combined into one book which would then contain *gasp* both literal and allegorical elements.
Brother, this is how we end up with Satan riding spaceships thru our galaxy. (That was added just for you, Bro. Benincasa.) :tinfoil :heeheehee
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 01:21 PM
Yes, because there is no way that multiple authors with multiple purposes and writing styles could ever have their writings combined into one book which would then contain *gasp* both literal and allegorical elements.
Brother, this is how we end up with Satan riding spaceships thru our galaxy. (That was added just for you, Bro. Benincasa.) :tinfoil :heeheehee
Why thank you. :tiphat
coksiw
12-13-2019, 01:33 PM
Yes, because there is no way that multiple authors with multiple purposes and writing styles could ever have their writings combined into one book which would then contain *gasp* both literal and allegorical elements.
Brother, this is how we end up with Satan riding spaceships thru our galaxy. (That was added just for you, Bro. Benincasa.) :tinfoil :heeheehee
Ehud, literal method is not literalizing. Literal method also takes into account figures of speech, styles, historical context, passage context, typology, linguistic elements and all of that. The literal method was used by Jesus, the Apostles and was the most used method by early Christians in Asia minor and Rome. It is also the method used by the UPCI and WPF.
The allegorical method is about looking for hidden meaning in things beyond the obvious meaning of the text. The Champion of it was Origin.
What you are actually describing here "multiple purposes and writing styles" is not the allegorical method.
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 01:57 PM
Ehud, literal method is not literalizing. Literal method also takes into account figures of speech, styles, historical context, passage context, typology, linguistic elements and all of that. The literal method was used by Jesus, the Apostles and was the most used method by early Christians in Asia minor and Rome. It is also the method used by the UPCI and WPF.
The allegorical method is about looking for hidden meaning in things beyond the obvious meaning of the text. The Champion of it was Origin.
What you are actually describing here "multiple purposes and writing styles" is not the allegorical method.
Then every eschatological thought uses that interpretation. Including the ones you were told to avoid. So, the sentence we were discussing clearly says the following, " In this situation wisdom is needed. Let the person who has insight figure out the number of the beast, because it is a human number. The beast's number is 666." Easy enough, who is the writer trying to reach? Those living at the time of the document, or not? If it is to be fulfilled some time thousands of years in the future, then how can they figure out the name? Or even recognize an individual who will not even be born for thousands of years after their deaths? If it was only meant for people living today, then why were previous generations not notified of this? Wouldn't that be important for the reader, as well as the author?
Then every eschatological thought uses that interpretation. Including the ones you were told to avoid.
Thank you.
So, the sentence we were discussing clearly says the following, " In this situation wisdom is needed. Let the person who has insight figure out the number of the beast, because it is a human number. The beast's number is 666." Easy enough, who is the writer trying to reach? Those living at the time of the document, or not? If it is to be fulfilled some time thousands of years in the future, then how can they figure out the name? Or even recognize an individual who will not even be born for thousands of years after their deaths? If it was only meant for people living today, then why were previous generations not notified of this? Wouldn't that be important for the reader, as well as the author?
I could certainly be wrong, but as I have been watching Bro. Blume's videos... wasn't Daniel told to seal his book? And wasn't John told not to seal his book? In other words, don't we have a biblical standard for designating when those prophecies were intended?
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 02:15 PM
Thank you.
I could certainly be wrong, but as I have been watching Bro. Blume's videos... wasn't Daniel told to seal his book? And wasn't John told not to seal his book? In other words, don't we have a biblical standard for designating when those prophecies were intended?
:thumbsup
Yes, Daniel is told to seal, and John is told to unseal. Frankly this is how we see Revelation unfold as the seals are being broken.
coksiw
12-13-2019, 02:27 PM
Then every eschatological thought uses that interpretation. Including the ones you were told to avoid. So, the sentence we were discussing clearly says the following, " In this situation wisdom is needed. Let the person who has insight figure out the number of the beast, because it is a human number. The beast's number is 666." Easy enough, who is the writer trying to reach? Those living at the time of the document, or not? If it is to be fulfilled some time thousands of years in the future, then how can they figure out the name? Or even recognize an individual who will not even be born for thousands of years after their deaths? If it was only meant for people living today, then why were previous generations not notified of this? Wouldn't that be important for the reader, as well as the author?
As the literal method states, you have to look at the historical context to figure out the obvious and simple meaning to the original audience. "Here is wisdom", there is an encoding behind this. "Let him who has understanding", those that know and can use the encoding? What encoding? well, the one they used. Can we figure it out? People has come up with different possibilities. Take into account that the encoding was intended to cypher the name, so probably wasn’t well known by non-christians. Time will tell what encoding method was correct. Now that's just one piece of the puzzle. If all the other signs are fulfilled then the right encoding will come to light to confirm it even more.
Then you have to recognized that the Scripture is inspired by God. God's prophecies are to be fulfilled in full. He is God, we do not need to help him to fulfill his Word with our innovative interpretation.
Then, if nobody to this day has fulfilled all those prophecies for the beast, then you have to come to the conclusion that the prophecy hasn't come to fulfillment yet. If you believe that it must have been fulfilled fully, then you will have to use allegorical interpretation so that you can fit your view into the scripture and the rest of signs. Pretty much you have to assume that the text for the other signs didn't mean the obvious meaning but you have to find hidden meanings so the prophecy can be "fulfilled".
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 02:55 PM
As the literal method states, you have to look at the historical context to figure out the obvious and simple meaning to the original audience. "Here is wisdom", there is an encoding behind this. "Let him who has understanding", those that know and can use the encoding? What encoding? well, the one they used. Can we figure it out? People has come up with different possibilities. Time will tell what encoding method was correct. Now that's just one piece of the puzzle. If all the other signs are fulfilled then the right encoding will come to light to confirm it even more.
Then you have to recognized that the Scripture is inspired by God. God's prophecies are to be fulfilled in full. He is God, we do not need to help him to fulfill his Word with our innovative interpretation.
Then, if nobody to this day has fulfilled all those prophecies for the beast, then you have to come to the conclusion that the prophecy hasn't come to fulfillment yet. If you believe that it must have been fulfilled fully, then you will have to use allegorical interpretation so that you can fit your view into the scripture and the rest of signs. Pretty much you have to assume that the text for the other signs didn't mean the obvious meaning but you have to find hidden meanings so the prophecy can be "fulfilled".
We aren't dealing with fulfillment. We are dealing with INSTRUCTIONS to READERS. So, again, was this sentence written to us and us alone? Because you clearly said nothing is fulfilled yet, therefore individuals reading these writings were not even expected to understand or investigate anything written in this sentence. He who hath understanding figure out the beast's number name. That is clear enough, but you say that it was only meant for a time in the very distant future. Even in our future. So, back to my original thought. The first century readers were not expected to use Gematria, a system for a people whose letters were also used as their numbers Romans, Greeks, and Hebrews. Americans don't have letter numbers (maybe when I was young we still used Roman numerals) but not any more. Again, it boils down to the INSTRUCTIONS were meant for WHO?
coksiw
12-13-2019, 03:19 PM
We aren't dealing with fulfillment. We are dealing with INSTRUCTIONS to READERS. So, again, was this sentence written to us and us alone? Because you clearly said nothing is fulfilled yet, therefore individuals reading these writings were not even expected to understand or investigate anything written in this sentence. He who hath understanding figure out the beast's number name. That is clear enough, but you say that it was only meant for a time in the very distant future. Even in our future. So, back to my original thought. The first century readers were not expected to use Gematria, a system for a people whose letters were also used as their numbers Romans, Greeks, and Hebrews. Americans don't have letter numbers (maybe when I was young we still used Roman numerals) but not any more. Again, it boils down to the INSTRUCTIONS were meant for WHO?
What if the encoding is not of letters? It wouldn't be the first time things are not clear in prophecy:
[1Pe 1:10-12 NKJV] 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace [that would come] to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into.
Even the OT prophecies about the messiah were not clear to the prophets themselves, and all attempt to figure out person and time was prevented by the Holy Spirit himself, indicating that it was not for them but for the profit of those that will be living in those times.
What's the purpose of prophecy? It is definitely not for you to reconstruct a future event with details, but instead to keep the signs in your heart, even if you don't fully understand them or can put them together, so that when they start happening you know what to do: observe the warnings, e.g. "don't follow the false Christs", or get some hope, e.g. "your redemption is near", or to know what to do, e.g. "flee".
Evang.Benincasa
12-13-2019, 03:30 PM
What if the encoding is not of letters? It wouldn't be the first time things are not clear in prophecy:
[1Pe 1:10-12 NKJV] 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace [that would come] to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into.
Even the OT prophecies about the messiah were not clear to the prophets themselves, and all attempt to figure out person and time was prevented by the Holy Spirit himself, indicating that it was not for them but for the profit of those that will be living in those times.
What's the purpose of prophecy? It is definitely not for you to reconstruct a future event with details, but instead to keep the signs in your heart, even if you don't fully understand them or can put them together, so that when they start happening you know what to do: observe the warnings, e.g. "don't follow the false Christs", or get some hope, e.g. "your redemption is near", or to know what to do, e.g. "flee".
As Ehud pointed out, the book is unsealed. My lands it is called the Revelation for a reason. It means the opening of one's mind, to show you something. Look up your redemption draweth nigh is butted up to when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies Luke 21:28? Are you saying that is in our future? Modern Jews are going to be placed in slavery throughout our known world? They will be taken into this captivity at the edge of a sword?
But you said you were a literalist, but cannot tell me the truth about an instruction given over 2,000 years ago? You say, maybe they were to keep the signs in their hearts? What? They aren't told that, they are told that if they are wise enough to use Gematria then figure out the number of the man. Sweet Louise, this is an instruction just like the one given to Daniel, or to the Apostles to get out of Dodge once they see armies surrounding Jerusalem, or John being told to break open the book, and leave it open. My lands, I'm the literalist here. :heeheehee
Esaias
12-13-2019, 08:03 PM
Now, I know brother Blume and probably brother Benincasa will disagree with me on this subject. But my current understanding, based on my studies over the years, is that 666 is the Greek gematria for LATEINOS ("the Latin man" or "the Latin one"). The particular gematria isn't the whole thing, however, it is just one piece of a puzzle if you will. There are a number of identifying marks that appertain to "the beast" which must be taken together as a whole. Some entity or person may have one or even some of those features, but that doesn't mean anything. It's when an entity matches ALL those marks that you have a positive ID.
When one looks closely at all the data, one realises the "mark of the beast" is not a computer chip, nor is it a future event. Rather it has been around for a long long time and yes, still is around.
The mark was something John saw in a symbolic vision. The symbolic visions of the Apocalypse reveal literal spiritual truths by means of signs and symbols. The mark he saw was a literal engraving of a name or the number of that name in the hand or forehead. This is the symbol. What then is the spiritual truth?
First of all, it clearly denotes a SIGN OF OWNERSHIP, ALLEGIANCE, and AGREEMENT. The mark is a token or sign of being owned by the beast, being loyal to the beast, or being in agreement (covenant) with the beast.
In the law, God's covenant with Israel had several SIGNS. One of those was His commandments, statutes, judgments, ordinances, laws, etc. Another was His liturgical calendar, consisting of the weekly Sabbath and the annual sabbaths and feast days. BOTH of these signs or tokens were said to be to the Israelites like "frontlets between your eyes and upon your hand", that is, they were a sign in the forehead and hand.
The beast has its laws, commandments, statutes, judgments, etc - that is to say, it's own doctrine and prescribed Law - as well as its own liturgical calendar (holy days). Those who receive the mark of the beast are those who submit to the Law and the calendar of the beast. They think how the beast wants them to think, they live according a prescribed ethic given by the beast, they follow religion that is given them by the beast. Instead of following God, His Word, His ways.
Those with the mark are contrasted in the visions with those who have the mark of God. This mark is in the forehead (not "the forehead or hand"), recalling Ezekiel's vision of the true saints being marked in their forehead as belonging to God. God's servants don't just follow God with outward action, it's genuine and internal. The beast's followers don't have to be "true believers", they just need to submit in their actions, they can be marked in EITHER the forehead OR the hand.
The phylacteries of rabbinical Judaism are a type (albeit unintentionally) of the mark of the beast, and yes there is a connection between them.
A required microchip demanded by a government is likewise a type of the mark. That is, it resembles the mark in that it is an attempted identifying mark of ownership. But chips are not, in themselves, the actual mark of the beast. THAT consists in a spurious form of paganism masquerading as Christianity, and those who follow the laws and calendar of that spurious religion are those who receive the mark of the beast.
666, as a reference to "LATEINOS", identifies one of the signs or clues as to the identity of this beast. It is Latin (Roman) in origin and character, culture, etc. Long story short it is the Roman system that prevailed across Europe for over a millennia and which STILL prevails in western civilisation, epitomised by the Roman Catholic Church (the Vatican and its global financial, religious, and political empire), all its Protestant daughters, and modern "republican" forms of government which are all continuations of Roman civil and canon law and jurisprudence, and which are controlled by a collection of wealthy families who trace their lineage back to BOTH the Imperial Flavian family AND the family of HEROD THE GREAT.
diakonos
12-13-2019, 08:42 PM
Latinos :lol
Esaias
12-13-2019, 08:51 PM
Latinos :lol
Lol, funny.
If that was the case though does that mean the image of the beast is a pinata?
diakonos
12-13-2019, 09:07 PM
Lol, funny.
If that was the case though does that mean the image of the beast is a pinata?
Just don’t tell em that the pope is the Antichrist :lol
coksiw
12-14-2019, 08:44 AM
Now, I know brother Blume and probably brother Benincasa will disagree with me on this subject. But my current understanding, based on my studies over the years, is that 666 is the Greek gematria for LATEINOS ("the Latin man" or "the Latin one").
Yup, that was Irenæus opinion as well.
Another modern opinion is that the greek letters in the manuscript does look a lot like the abbreviation that the Islam use for "In the Name of Allah". This hypothesis came from a ex-muslin.
Amanah
12-14-2019, 08:56 AM
I love that this discussion is intelligently representing various schools of eschatology, very interesting !
Evang.Benincasa
12-15-2019, 05:12 AM
Yup, that was Irenæus opinion as well.
Another modern opinion is that the greek letters in the manuscript does look a lot like the abbreviation that the Islam use for "In the Name of Allah". This hypothesis came from a ex-muslin.
Again, it would of made no sense to the most intelligent first century reader. Islam didn’t come about until 600 A.D. Allah wasn’t a name they would of associated with anything but a minute faction of paganism. If that. My whole point is that the original readers are giving the main instructions to figure out the mark and number name. If they were given the instructions first, then in order to be correct, then we must line up with them. Also the book of the Revelstion was written in Greek, not Hebrew, Aramaic, or Latin. The letter numbers had to be in Greek in order to use Greek gematria.
Amanah
12-15-2019, 05:25 AM
Again, it would of made no sense to the most intelligent first century reader. Islam didn’t come about until 600 A.D. Allah wasn’t a name they would of associated with anything but a minute faction of paganism. If that. My whole point is that the original readers are giving the main instructions to figure out the mark and number name. If they were given the instructions first, then in order to be correct, then we must line up with them. Also the book of the Revelstion was written in Greek, not Hebrew, Aramaic, or Latin. The letter numbers had to be in Greek in order to use Greek gematria.
:yourock
Evang.Benincasa
12-15-2019, 07:41 AM
Latinos :lol
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/31/c6/0b/31c60b629f3697a8dd5822773376aa57.jpg
I just noticed your avatar!
That is so funny. :lol
Evang.Benincasa
12-15-2019, 07:50 AM
You know going back to the LATEINOS issue of 666, it actually is a reference to Saturn, or Saturnalia. Lateinos meaning the Latin thing. Xmas is Roman as is Sunday practice of a day off. Way before anyone that it was cool to have Sunday off for Church and relaxation Sunday was the Roman Empire's day off. But back to Saturnday, and the feast of Saturnalia. All the spirits which visit Scrooge aren't pagan Britannian images, but Roman. From the ghost of Xmas past, present and future. They are all Roman. The English Anglican church is just a Roman church which allows divorce. Yet, America was colonized by a huge amount of Anti Catholics (not just Protestants) but hardcore Mystery Babylon is the Vatican anti Catholics. Who banned Xmas and made it illegal to celebrate because it was a Catholic mass. So, if you celebrate Xmas you have taken the mark of the beast, and for the Seventh Day Adventist who teach the mark if the beast is Sunday they may have something in Irenaeus' teaching on a Lateinos 666.
Evang.Benincasa
12-15-2019, 07:51 AM
Just don’t tell em that the pope is the Antichrist :lol
My sedevacantist relatives believe the pope is the antichrist.
Esaias
12-15-2019, 08:31 AM
My sedevacantist relatives believe the pope is the antichrist.
Can they trace their bishop's ordination back to a valid pope? I was always curious how traditionalists worked that out.
coksiw
12-15-2019, 08:36 AM
Again, it would of made no sense to the most intelligent first century reader. Islam didn’t come about until 600 A.D. Allah wasn’t a name they would of associated with anything but a minute faction of paganism. If that. My whole point is that the original readers are giving the main instructions to figure out the mark and number name. If they were given the instructions first, then in order to be correct, then we must line up with them. Also the book of the Revelstion was written in Greek, not Hebrew, Aramaic, or Latin. The letter numbers had to be in Greek in order to use Greek gematria.
I was just showing some of the many interpretations of it, including a totally different to counting one. The argument for the Allah interpretation is that perhaps what John saw was a symbol and wrote it down with the similar Greek letters.
I'm not married to any of the interpretations of the 666.
Evang.Benincasa
12-15-2019, 09:32 AM
Can they trace their bishop's ordination back to a valid pope? I was always curious how traditionalists worked that out.
The whole hoopla starts in 1958 with the death of Pope Pius XII. All popes after that are Antichrist. All have given the mark of the beast to those being in the Catholic Church. One cousin vehemently defends Lateinos as meaning the Hidden Roman. Which means the pope behind the pope. How the plot to remove and manipulate church doctrine would be accomplished by faction working in the shadows. Sedevacantists don’t all agree across the board (hey it’s religion) so there is a lot that they debate amongst themselves. Imagine that! :lol
diakonos
12-15-2019, 01:35 PM
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/31/c6/0b/31c60b629f3697a8dd5822773376aa57.jpg
I just noticed your avatar!
That is so funny. :lol
Stole it from Prax’ Facebook page.
Evang.Benincasa
12-15-2019, 03:05 PM
Stole it from Prax’ Facebook page.
That’s so funny!!! :heeheehee
Esaias
12-15-2019, 09:56 PM
The whole hoopla starts in 1958 with the death of Pope Pius XII. All popes after that are Antichrist. All have given the mark of the beast to those being in the Catholic Church. One cousin vehemently defends Lateinos as meaning the Hidden Roman. Which means the pope behind the pope. How the plot to remove and manipulate church doctrine would be accomplished by faction working in the shadows. Sedevacantists don’t all agree across the board (hey it’s religion) so there is a lot that they debate amongst themselves. Imagine that! :lol
Just curious why they haven't gone Eastern Orthodox? I mean, Vatican II seems not really different than 1054, in principle... :)
Evang.Benincasa
12-16-2019, 04:13 AM
Just curious why they haven't gone Eastern Orthodox? I mean, Vatican II seems not really different than 1054, in principle... :)
Vatican II to the Sedevactist is totally the flip side to Vatican I.
Eastern Roman Church are heretics to the Sedevacantists going back to the Great Schism.
mfblume
12-17-2019, 12:21 PM
The number of the beast, 666, is related to a spirit since the Garden where satan tempted man to elevate himself up to deity. It is seen throughout the Word with Goliath being 6 cubits and a span tall with spear weighing 600 shekels of silver while wearing SCALES, and Neb's image standing 60 cubits high and 6 cubits wide.
It came to the forefront in Nero and the Roman's Atrium with his image erected having considered himself a god.
It's generally the answer to God's phylacteries noted in Deut 6, and counters all God does.
Amanah
12-17-2019, 12:29 PM
The number of the beast, 666, is related to a spirit since the Garden where satan tempted man to elevate himself up to deity. It is seen throughout the Word with Goliath being 6 cubits and a span tall with spear weighing 600 shekels of silver while wearing SCALES, and Neb's image standing 60 cubits high and 6 cubits wide.
It came to the forefront in Nero and the Roman's Atrium with his image erected having considered himself a god.
It's generally the answer to God's phylacteries noted in Deut 6, and counters all God does.
Interesting. Thank you!
mfblume
12-17-2019, 01:16 PM
Interesting. Thank you!
Forgot to mention the obvious sixth day of man's creation. GOliath also shows six cubits and a span as man's height, so to speak at 6, plus a hand higher to grasp 7 but not quite making it. lol ;)
Esaias
12-17-2019, 06:28 PM
Also the 666 talents of gold Solomon used for the Temple.
Goliath wore chainmail, not "scales", though?
Never mind, I see commentators are divided about that.
mfblume
12-18-2019, 05:58 AM
Transliteration: qaśqeśeth
Phonetic: kas-keh'-seth
BDB Definition:
scale (of fish, water animals)
Origin: by reduplication from an unused root meaning to shale off as bark
TWOT entry: 2082a
Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
Strong's Definition: By reduplication from an unused root meaning to shale off as bark; a scale (of a fish); hence a coat of mail (as composed of or covered with jointed plates of metal): - mail, scale.
Esaias
12-18-2019, 07:07 PM
Transliteration: qaśqeśeth
Phonetic: kas-keh'-seth
BDB Definition:
scale (of fish, water animals)
Origin: by reduplication from an unused root meaning to shale off as bark
TWOT entry: 2082a
Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
Strong's Definition: By reduplication from an unused root meaning to shale off as bark; a scale (of a fish); hence a coat of mail (as composed of or covered with jointed plates of metal): - mail, scale.
Thanks! :thumbsup
mfblume
12-18-2019, 08:18 PM
Another interesting connection in all of this is that there is a sea beast and land beast in Revelation 13. The land beast becomes known as the false prophet.
Revelation 13:1.. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:11.. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
The land beast does miracles before the sea beast.
Revelation 13:13-15.. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, ..(14).. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. ..(15).. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
We see that the beast from the land is later called the false prophet.
Revelation 19:20.. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Job speaks of a sea beast and a land beast. LEVIATHAN from the land.
Job 41:1-34.. Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? ..(2).. Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn? ..(3).. Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? ..(4).. Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever? ..(5).. Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens? ..(6).. Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants? ..(7).. Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears? ..(8).. Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more. ..(9).. Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him? ..(10).. None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me? ..(11).. Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine. ..(12).. I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion. ..(13).. Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle? ..(14).. Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about. ..(15).. His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal. ..(16).. One is so near to another, that no air can come between them. ..(17).. They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered. ..(18).. By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. ..(19).. Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. ..(20).. Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. ..(21).. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth. ..(22).. In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him. ..(23).. The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved. ..(24).. His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone. ..(25).. When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves. ..(26).. The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon. ..(27).. He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood. ..(28).. The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble. ..(29).. Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear. ..(30).. Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire. ..(31).. He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. ..(32).. He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary. ..(33).. Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. ..(34).. He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
Psalms 104:26.. There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
BEHEMOTH is in the land.
Job 40:15-24.. Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. ..(16).. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. ..(17).. He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. ..(18).. His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. ..(19).. He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. ..(20).. Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play. ..(21).. He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. ..(22).. The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about. ..(23).. Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth. ..(24).. He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.
The sea best gets his power from the dragon, satan, and the land beast gets his power from the sea beast.
Revelation 13:4.. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the (SEA) beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:12.. And he (LAND BEAST) exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
THE LAND in the bible is always Israel.
The LAND beast operates in the presence of the sea beast, lile prophets operating in the presence of God.
Revelation 13:14.. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
This false prophets does miracles like Moses and Elijah.
Revelation 13:13.. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Many Jewish false prophets worked miracles in the Book of Acts.
Acts 8:9.. But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
Acts 13:6-8.. And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: ..(7).. Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. ..(8).. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
Have this on video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Dt5st0YaE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi_3WD_BU4w
Esaias
12-18-2019, 08:24 PM
The Jewish sorcerors (not miracle workers by the way) in Acts were not put in place by.Rome. I think so much is missed when attempting to squeeze all the Revelation into a strictly 1st century Judean fulfillment scenario. Not to mention questions are raised that I don't see answers for.
mfblume
12-18-2019, 08:41 PM
The Jewish sorcerors (not miracle workers by the way) in Acts were not put in place by.Rome. I think so much is missed when attempting to squeeze all the Revelation into a strictly 1st century Judean fulfillment scenario. Not to mention questions are raised that I don't see answers for.
there is so much more to discuss about this by far than I have presented.
The point is that the Jewish religious leaders pushed toward service to Rome. From the time Jesus was crucified and they hollered for Caesar to be their king, throughout Acts where Jewish leaders called on Roman authorities to persecute the church, we find this same tendency.
This is like the land beast moving all to worship the sea beast.
We see the organized Jewish persecution against the church.
Acts 4:1-3.. And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, ..(2).. Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead. ..(3).. And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
Acts 4:15-18.. But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, ..(16).. Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it. ..(17).. But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name. ..(18).. And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
It goes on and on all through Acts.
The mark of the beast was a parody of the seal of the Holy Ghost as the high priest wore the Name of God on his forehead as the 144,000 in Rev 14:1 do.
Israel flatly devoted itself to Rome at the cross of all places.
Paul even called those who persecuted him as beasts in 1 Cor 15.
Sorcery is supernatural, and is satan's power. They were not always just tricks.
The videos I linked to show the details of this concept I am presenting.
Esaias
12-18-2019, 08:41 PM
From a different perspective...
The Land beast or false prophet causes people to take a mark of ownership and identification or allegience to the (1st? Or 2nd beast?) while constructing an image of the first beast, empowering it to operate as though alive.
The mark, being a counterfeit of God's mark, thus includes a counterfeit holy day calendar (including a counterfeit weekly holy day) and a counterfeit collection of divine law (canon law). What entity arose to control the oikomenos (the territory of Greco-Roman civilisation), introduced changes to the liturgical calendar, including introducing a new weekly holy day called Day of the Sun(god), replacing Biblical authority with ecclesiastical authority or Canon Law? Which built a copy or image of Imperial Rome and empowered it to cause everyone to submit to said mark? That is, to enforce compliance with the new counterfeit religion?
Whose God is born on Dec 25th, and is thus clearly the Sun God known as Baal? Who always was a counterfeit "Lord" and "God"? Who was the God of Egypt (Amon-Ra) which was called a sea dragon (Isaiah 27:1ff)?
Which persecuted the true saints of God throughout the oikomenos for over a millennia? Which established its authority over men in large measure through "miracles, signs, and wonders" including apparitions of Mary, weeping statues, and other miracles attributed to relics and remains of dead "saints"?
mfblume
12-18-2019, 08:53 PM
With all due great respect, I see no reference to calendars in the concept of marks or the seal of God. I know that the 7th Day Adventists who keep sabbath as you do, Esaias, use the mark of the beast to indicate Sunday worship. They use all sorts of reasonings from Deut 6 to bring in their candystick of sabbath-keeping whenever the mark of the beast issue arises.
But the name and number of the beast on the forehead is restricted to being a parody of the high priest's name of God on his mitre along with the 6's of man's flesh being exalted as we indicated is found from Nebuchadnezzar and Goliath and Solomon.
As I showed in the PART 10 video, FALSE PROPHETS always were people form the nation of Israel. ANTICHRISTS were people from within the church who fell away from the church. To restrict the use of these terms to those which the bible uses, false prophets were never people of other religions outside of Israel.
The FALSE PROPHET is the land beast who is the religious leadership of Israel leading people to call Caesar their King, and even threatening Pilate at charge of not being friend to Caesar.
Esaias
12-18-2019, 08:58 PM
From a different perspective...
The Land beast or false prophet causes people to take a mark of ownership and identification or allegience to the (1st? Or 2nd beast?) while constructing an image of the first beast, empowering it to operate as though alive.
The mark, being a counterfeit of God's mark, thus includes a counterfeit holy day calendar (including a counterfeit weekly holy day) and a counterfeit collection of divine law (canon law). What entity arose to control the oikomenos (the territory of Greco-Roman civilisation), introduced changes to the liturgical calendar, including introducing a new weekly holy day called Day of the Sun(god), replacing Biblical authority with ecclesiastical authority or Canon Law? Which built a copy or image of Imperial Rome and empowered it to cause everyone to submit to said mark? That is, to enforce compliance with the new counterfeit religion?
Whose God is born on Dec 25th, and is thus clearly the Sun God known as Baal? Who always was a counterfeit "Lord" and "God"? Who was the God of Egypt (Amon-Ra) which was called a sea dragon (Isaiah 27:1ff)?
Which persecuted the true saints of God throughout the oikomenos for over a millennia? Which established its authority over men in large measure through "miracles, signs, and wonders" including apparitions of Mary, weeping statues, and other miracles attributed to relics and remains of dead "saints"?
Which is historically well known for blasphemy against God? Changes times and laws? Originated as a small thing that grew to become THE dominant persecuting power of all time? Which uprooted three kingdoms in it's rise to power, three kingdoms that arose out of the former Imperial Roman beast?
Which was born out of a subversive movement or APOSTASY within the church, whose predecessors set the stage for men to sit in God's temple (the church) as though THEY were God? Which upon the removal of the pagan Roman government made possible this apostasy's meteoric rise to power and a clear revealing of the evil of CLERICALISM (the "man of sin", in stark contrast to the genuine "man of God")?
Which preserved via it's "image of the beast" the Roman jurisprudence which is the basis for ADMIRALTY LAW which governs most nations today? A Roman beast that appeared historically to die and yet somehow still lives on in modern republican societies? (Ever wonder why Law Dictionaries have about as much Latin in them as they do English? Well now you know.)
Esaias
12-18-2019, 09:13 PM
With all due great respect, I see no reference to calendars in the concept of marks or the seal of God. I know that the 7th Day Adventists who keep sabbath as you do, Esaias, use the mark of the beast to indicate Sunday worship. They use all sorts of reasonings from Deut 6 to bring in their candystick of sabbath-keeping whenever the mark of the beast issue arises.
But the name and number of the beast on the forehead is restricted to being a parody of the high priest's name of God on his mitre along with the 6's of man's flesh being exalted as we indicated is found from Nebuchadnezzar and Goliath and Solomon.
As I showed in the PART 10 video, FALSE PROPHETS always were people form the nation of Israel. ANTICHRISTS were people from within the church who fell away from the church. To restrict the use of these terms to those which the bible uses, false prophets were never people of other religions outside of Israel.
The FALSE PROPHET is the land beast who is the religious leadership of Israel leading people to call Caesar their King, and even threatening Pilate at charge of not being friend to Caesar.
Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.
Exodus:13:6
Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
Exodus:13:7
And thou shalt show thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.
Exodus:13:8
And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
Exodus:13:9
Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
Deuteronomy:11:18
And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deuteronomy:11:19
And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
Deuteronomy:11:20
Both the Divine Laws, commandments, statutes, judgments, ordinances AND the Divine Liturgical calendar were to be signs or tokens "on the hand and/foreheads" of God's people. The mark of the beast is a counterfeit, a blasphemous copy and alternative to Divine Law and the Divine calendar of appointments which were given as one of the means by which worshippers of the God of the Bible were to be identified.
Your parallel with the crown of the high priest fails, because ONLY the high priest had the mitre and the false prophet does not but gives the mark to ALL THE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T ALREADY MARKED BY GOD IN THE FOREHEAD, which alludes to Ezek 9. So the parallel to the mark of the beast is not the high priest's mitre, as if the second beast is simply the Jewish high priest. Not to mention the Jewish high priest did not hold sway over all the oikomenos.
Not to mention the second beast is destroyed AFTER the destruction of Babylon by the first beast (actually the horns of the first beast) not DURING that destruction. Therefore not only is apocalyptic Babylon not "earthly Jerusalem in 70 AD", but neither is the second beast like a lamb the Jewish high priest.
mfblume
12-19-2019, 04:22 PM
The point is that in the New Testament says that everybody is a priest with all benefits the high priest has in access to the holiest. Hebrews chapter 6 shows all entering the holiest after the forerunner, Jesus. That's why the hundred forty-four thousand have the Father's name in their foreheads, and the devil is mocking that with a counterfeit.
It's certainly easier to span the centuries and find something that can be fitted into the pictures of these visions. But the true interpretation will fit the scenario and stick closely with the theme already set in scripture, noting these things would shortly come to pass from John's day.
Hebrews 6:19-20.. Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; ..(20).. Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
mfblume
12-19-2019, 05:06 PM
Not to mention the second beast is destroyed AFTER the destruction of Babylon by the first beast (actually the horns of the first beast) not DURING that destruction. Therefore not only is apocalyptic Babylon not "earthly Jerusalem in 70 AD", but neither is the second beast like a lamb the Jewish high priest.
The visions of Revelation are not chronologically following hot on the heels of the previous ones. AND I SAW indicates when a vision begins.
We know that Revelation 20 is the end of death and hell, but Revelation 21 contains issues that indicate death still exists, so the destruction of the beast and false prophet in Revlation 19 is not necessarily in the timeframe oe migt assume if one thinks the visions are chronological.
mfblume
12-19-2019, 05:07 PM
Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.
Exodus:13:6
Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
Exodus:13:7
And thou shalt show thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.
Exodus:13:8
And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
Exodus:13:9
Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
Deuteronomy:11:18
And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deuteronomy:11:19
And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
Deuteronomy:11:20
Both the Divine Laws, commandments, statutes, judgments, ordinances AND the Divine Liturgical calendar were to be signs or tokens "on the hand and/foreheads" of God's people. The mark of the beast is a counterfeit, a blasphemous copy and alternative to Divine Law and the Divine calendar of appointments which were given as one of the means by which worshippers of the God of the Bible were to be identified.
The phylacteries referred to include the entirety of the Law in concept, not just certain aspects.
mfblume
12-19-2019, 05:13 PM
Which is historically well known for blasphemy against God? Changes times and laws? Originated as a small thing that grew to become THE dominant persecuting power of all time? Which uprooted three kingdoms in it's rise to power, three kingdoms that arose out of the former Imperial Roman beast?
Which was born out of a subversive movement or APOSTASY within the church, whose predecessors set the stage for men to sit in God's temple (the church) as though THEY were God? Which upon the removal of the pagan Roman government made possible this apostasy's meteoric rise to power and a clear revealing of the evil of CLERICALISM (the "man of sin", in stark contrast to the genuine "man of God")?
Which preserved via it's "image of the beast" the Roman jurisprudence which is the basis for ADMIRALTY LAW which governs most nations today? A Roman beast that appeared historically to die and yet somehow still lives on in modern republican societies? (Ever wonder why Law Dictionaries have about as much Latin in them as they do English? Well now you know.)
But it did not happen shortly after John wrote.
If one points to the latter part of Revelation 20, that is a wrapping up of things, with the vast bulk of the rest of the Book that deals with overall wrath and judgment on earth taking place in the first century.
Esaias
12-20-2019, 10:36 PM
But it did not happen shortly after John wrote.
Like this part?
Revelation 22:6 KJV
And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Which would include this:
Revelation 20:12 KJV
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
???
mfblume
12-21-2019, 08:19 AM
Esaias, I dealt with that. But it did not happen shortly after John wrote.
If one points to the latter part of Revelation 20, that is a wrapping up of things, with the vast bulk of the rest of the Book that deals with overall wrath and judgment on earth taking place in the first century.
Explained.
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