View Full Version : The Spirit of Abortion
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:12 PM
I am so sick and tired of the bonds of legalism that a small minority within our movement want to place us in. This minority is affecting many things within the Apostolic culture. There is a dawning realization in me that rules can never replace relationship. Real morality is placed deep within the heart of a man who is in love with Jesus. No rule can ever take the place of that intimacy.
The spirit of abortion is in hundreds of legalistic position papers we have been formulating for decades. It is found in the heavy-handedness of supposed elders, who rebuke the cognitive process in the young as rebellious, and by default, wicked. It is found in every sermon that focuses on works of man more than the Work of God's grace.
The spirit of abortion is alive and well in many churches today. We rely on persona and tradition more than a sovereign move of the Holy Ghost. There are far too few prayer meetings nowadays. Instead, we run after every self-proclaimed Apostolic guru that lands on a conference stage.
I'm tired of politics. I'm tired of self-promotion. I'm tired of a complete lack of integrity in high levels of leadership.
This spirit is killing real revival.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:22 PM
Has anyone ever read JR Ensey's book, does God really care about facial hair?
Has anyone ever read JR Ensey's book, does God really care about facial hair?
no but I like what you wrote here.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:25 PM
In it, he lays out an entire doctrine concerning facial hair.
Doctrine of facial hair .... lol. R U kidding me????
In it, he lays out an entire doctrine concerning facial hair.
I am not likely to read that book....I respect men like Brothe Enzy. I do not agree with them.
on a side note, I need to write a book outlineing a doctrine where men only shave on Wednesdays and Saturday nights.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:29 PM
Can you even begin to imagine? A book written to solidify the idea that having facial hair is sinful? And this while the bible plainly states they plucked the Saviour's beard. Not to mention the fact that history teaches us that it was the custom of true Apostolic men to have a beard. It was a badge of masculinity.
berkeley
02-22-2007, 03:30 PM
In it, he lays out an entire doctrine concerning facial hair.
un real. where can I get that book?
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 03:30 PM
Have you seen pictures of the early pioneers of Pentecost?
On the silliness beard and moustache standard ... the following folks would not be eligible "preachers": Jesus, Aaron, and most of OT men of God.
Why is our concept of Holiness ... a photocopy of a 20th century Western businessman??? No cultural contexts ... are being examined ....
* The Jews never appeared without.
2 Samuel 10:5 When they told it unto David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed: and the king said, Tarry at Jericho until your beards be grown, and then return.
* Worn even by the priests.
Psalms 133:2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
* Laying hold of, a token of respect.
2 Samuel 20:9 And Joab said to Amasa, Art thou in health, my brother? And Joab took Amasa by the beard with the right hand to kiss him.
* Shaving of, a great offense.
2 Samuel 10:4 Wherefore Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, even to their buttocks, and sent them away.
2 Samuel 10:6-7 And when the children of Ammon saw that they stank before David, the children of Ammon sent and hired the Syrians of Bethrehob, and the Syrians of Zoba, twenty thousand footmen, and of king Maacah a thousand men, and of Ishtob twelve thousand men. And when David heard of it, he sent Joab, and all the host of the mighty men.
* Plucking of, a sign of scorn.
Isaiah 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
* Dribbling on, a sign of derangement.
1 Samuel 21:13 And he changed his behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and scrabbled on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle fall down upon his beard.
* IN AFFLICTION,
o Was neglected and untrimmed.
2 Samuel 19:24 And Mephibosheth the son of Saul came down to meet the king, and had neither dressed his feet, nor trimmed his beard, nor washed his clothes, from the day the king departed until the day he came again in peace.
o Was clipped.
Jeremiah 48:37 For every head shall be bald, and every beard clipped: upon all the hands shall be cuttings, and upon the loins sackcloth.
o Was shorn.
Jeremiah 41:5 That there came certain from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, even fourscore men, having their beards shaven, and their clothes rent, and having cut themselves, with offerings and incense in their hand, to bring them to the house of the LORD.
o Sometimes plucked out.
Ezra 9:3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied.
* Corners of, not to be marred for the dead.
Leviticus 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
Leviticus 21:5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.
* Subject to leprosy.
Leviticus 13:29-30 If a man or woman have a plague upon the head or the beard; Then the priest shall see the plague: and, behold, if it be in sight deeper than the skin; and there be in it a yellow thin hair; then the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is a dry scall, even a leprosy upon the head or beard.
* Of the healed leper to be shaved.
Leviticus 14:9 But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean.
* Shaving, illustrative of severe judgments.
Isaiah 7:20 In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.
Isaiah 15:2 He is gone up to Bajith, and to Dibon, the high places, to weep: Moab shall howl over Nebo, and over Medeba: on all their heads shall be baldness, and every beard cut off.
Ezekiel 5:1 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:31 PM
I am not likely to read that book....I respect men like Brothe Enzy. I do not agree with them.
on a side note, I need to write a book outlineing a doctrine where men only shave on Wednesdays and Saturday nights.
Yes, that seems to be the trend among many Apostolic men.
Brother Ensy is well-respected, but this is another example of a personal conviction that has morphed into twenty-first century Apostolic doctrine.
Can you even begin to imagine? A book written to solidify the idea that having facial hair is sinful? And this while the bible plainly states they plucked the Saviour's beard. Not to mention the fact that history teaches us that it was the custom of true Apostolic men to have a beard. It was a badge of masculinity.
not to mention deau. says not to trim your BEARD..... we use Deau. to explain why women must wear dresses but we ignor it where it says dont trim your beard?
somebody splain that one to me.
HeavenlyOne
02-22-2007, 03:33 PM
Can you even begin to imagine? A book written to solidify the idea that having facial hair is sinful? And this while the bible plainly states they plucked the Saviour's beard. Not to mention the fact that history teaches us that it was the custom of true Apostolic men to have a beard. It was a badge of masculinity.
I was raised with that teaching.
My husband, when we attended church where I met you, decided to grow a goatee. When the pastor said something to him about it, my husband stated that there was nothing wrong with having a beard and the Bible didn't speak against it. The pastor responded with, and I quote, "No, but you look like a trinitarian!"
I was stunned. Made me wonder if he thought Jesus and John the Baptist looked trinitarian as well.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:35 PM
I was raised with that teaching.
My husband, when we attended church where I met you, decided to grow a goatee. When the pastor said something to him about it, my husband stated that there was nothing wrong with having a beard and the Bible didn't speak against it. The pastor responded with, and I quote, "No, but you look like a trinitarian!"
I was stunned. Made me wonder if he thought Jesus and John the Baptist looked trinitarian as well.
This is a silly unnecessary yoke. What if this is the one issue that keeps someone from the cross?
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 03:36 PM
On the silliness beard and moustache standard ... the following folks would not be eligible "preachers": Jesus, Aaron, and most of OT men of God.
Why is our concept of Holiness ... a photocopy of a 20th century Western businessman??? No cultural contexts ... are being examined ....
* The Jews never appeared without.
2 Samuel 10:5 When they told it unto David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed: and the king said, Tarry at Jericho until your beards be grown, and then return.
* Worn even by the priests.
Psalms 133:2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
* Laying hold of, a token of respect.
2 Samuel 20:9 And Joab said to Amasa, Art thou in health, my brother? And Joab took Amasa by the beard with the right hand to kiss him.
* Shaving of, a great offense.
2 Samuel 10:4 Wherefore Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, even to their buttocks, and sent them away.
2 Samuel 10:6-7 And when the children of Ammon saw that they stank before David, the children of Ammon sent and hired the Syrians of Bethrehob, and the Syrians of Zoba, twenty thousand footmen, and of king Maacah a thousand men, and of Ishtob twelve thousand men. And when David heard of it, he sent Joab, and all the host of the mighty men.
* Plucking of, a sign of scorn.
Isaiah 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
* Dribbling on, a sign of derangement.
1 Samuel 21:13 And he changed his behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and scrabbled on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle fall down upon his beard.
* IN AFFLICTION,
o Was neglected and untrimmed.
2 Samuel 19:24 And Mephibosheth the son of Saul came down to meet the king, and had neither dressed his feet, nor trimmed his beard, nor washed his clothes, from the day the king departed until the day he came again in peace.
o Was clipped.
Jeremiah 48:37 For every head shall be bald, and every beard clipped: upon all the hands shall be cuttings, and upon the loins sackcloth.
o Was shorn.
Jeremiah 41:5 That there came certain from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, even fourscore men, having their beards shaven, and their clothes rent, and having cut themselves, with offerings and incense in their hand, to bring them to the house of the LORD.
o Sometimes plucked out.
Ezra 9:3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied.
* Corners of, not to be marred for the dead.
Leviticus 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
Leviticus 21:5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.
* Subject to leprosy.
Leviticus 13:29-30 If a man or woman have a plague upon the head or the beard; Then the priest shall see the plague: and, behold, if it be in sight deeper than the skin; and there be in it a yellow thin hair; then the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is a dry scall, even a leprosy upon the head or beard.
* Of the healed leper to be shaved.
Leviticus 14:9 But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean.
* Shaving, illustrative of severe judgments.
Isaiah 7:20 In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.
Isaiah 15:2 He is gone up to Bajith, and to Dibon, the high places, to weep: Moab shall howl over Nebo, and over Medeba: on all their heads shall be baldness, and every beard cut off.
Ezekiel 5:1 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.
You clean shaven heathen you!!!!!
I was raised with that teaching.
My husband, when we attended church where I met you, decided to grow a goatee. When the pastor said something to him about it, my husband stated that there was nothing wrong with having a beard and the Bible didn't speak against it. The pastor responded with, and I quote, "No, but you look like a trinitarian!"
I was stunned. Made me wonder if he thought Jesus and John the Baptist looked trinitarian as well.
What's even more outrageous is that within the movement it is not policed equitably ... i.e. White pastors would be subject to a board investigation if they even had a little stubble while some Hispanic and Jamaican pastors are never questioned ....
since we are on the subject. we use the idea that rebels in the 60s wore beards and that is why we dont. this is the "culture" arguement.
but with respect to the "Hair" issue, when libs trot out the "culture" argument, the pat answer is "there is not culture argument"....
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:37 PM
Example 2.
Do you realize, in our movement, we actually have a tract titled "Why I Do Not Have a Television"?
Can you imagine standing on a street corner passing that one out? Or giving it to your neighbor, or the waitress at the restaurant? Of all the things you could say, this is the lasting impression you wish to leave? Unreal!
berkeley
02-22-2007, 03:38 PM
Example 2.
Do you realize, in our movement, we actually have a tract titled "Why I Do Not Have a Television"?
Can you imagine standing on a street corner passing that one out? Or giving it to your neighbor, or the waitress at the restaurant?lol
Example 2.
Do you realize, in our movement, we actually have a tract titled "Why I Do Not Have a Television"?
Can you imagine standing on a street corner passing that one out? Or giving it to your neighbor, or the waitress at the restaurant?
It needs to be revised "Why I Do Not Have A Television but can watch YouTube"
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:41 PM
While it is somewhat humorous, the truth is these issues keep people from truth. They are unnecessary yokes. They offend little ones.
HeavenlyOne
02-22-2007, 03:41 PM
This is a silly unnecessary yoke. What if this is the one issue that keeps someone from the cross?
That attitude is part of the reason why my husband isn't in church today.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:42 PM
What's even more outrageous is that within the movement it is not policed equitably ... i.e. White pastors would be subject to a board investigation if they even had a little stubble while some Hispanic and Jamaican pastors are never questioned ....
This is so true. What is the deal with that? Why is it okay for blacks to have a beard?
This is so true. What is the deal with that? Why is it okay for blacks to have a beard?
That's because ... no one wants to examine the first issue to divide Pentecostalism was not the "New Issue" of 1913 and 1914 ....but racism .... let me not get started ... Just examine the words of Parham and others.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:45 PM
Example 2.
Do you realize, in our movement, we actually have a tract titled "Why I Do Not Have a Television"?
Can you imagine standing on a street corner passing that one out? Or giving it to your neighbor, or the waitress at the restaurant? Of all the things you could say, this is the lasting impression you wish to leave? Unreal!
We could be spreading the gospel, but we are pushing a cultural issue instead. Or is the television issue a part of the gospel to some?
We could be spreading the gospel, but we are pushing a cultural issue instead. Or is the television issue a part of the gospel to some?
It ain't just the gospel ... it's the truth ... for some. :heeheehee
HeavenlyOne
02-22-2007, 03:45 PM
It needs to be revised "Why I Do Not Have A Television but can watch YouTube"
ROFL!!! Now I'm coughing uncontrollably!
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:46 PM
That's because ... no one wants to examine the first issue to divide Pentecostalism was not the "New Issue" of 1913 and 1914 ....but racism .... let me not get started ... Just examine the words of Parham and others.
Did you know there was an official apology issued to the PAW and other Oneness Black organizations from the UPC last year?
Did you know there was an official apology issued to the PAW and other Oneness Black organizations from the UPC last year?
Yep. Although they are still viewed as having a "weaker" message.
ReformedDave
02-22-2007, 03:47 PM
PP and Dan, just a sincere question. Why do you stay in the UPC? Wouldn't it be more honest to leave?
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:48 PM
since we are on the subject. we use the idea that rebels in the 60s wore beards and that is why we dont. this is the "culture" arguement.
but with respect to the "Hair" issue, when libs trot out the "culture" argument, the pat answer is "there is not culture argument"....
The 60's example is so old. Try telling that one to a twenty-something business professional. He's gonna think you are a loon.
If you wanna say its your conviction - no problem, but to make it a "thus saith the Lord" is way loco.
PP and Dan, just a sincere question. Why do you stay in the UPC? Wouldn't it be more honest to leave?
left in November ... my brother. Could not continue.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:51 PM
PP and Dan, just a sincere question. Why do you stay in the UPC? Wouldn't it be more honest to leave?
What does it have to do with honesty?
1. These issues are not confined to the UPC alone.
2. I've invested too much.
3. Why should I leave because someone wants to hijack the movement?
What does it have to do with honesty?
1. These issues are not confined to the UPC alone.
2. I've invested too much.
3. Why should I leave because someone wants to hi-jack the movement?
It's been hijacked PP .... :sorry
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:52 PM
It would be like saying you should leave this forum because you don't agree with me on everything. Non-sensical.
berkeley
02-22-2007, 03:52 PM
left in November ... my brother. Could not continue.
I left Feb. or March 2004. I then attended a few more times through the yrs. Now I'm out... I have mixed emotions. lol
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:54 PM
I left Feb. or March 2004. I then attended a few more times through the yrs. Now I'm out... I have mixed emotions. lol
Why did you all leave, you bunch of lilly-livers!!!!
You should have stayed to effect change.
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 03:55 PM
Tread lightly gents. It's not nice to talk this way about Mother. She may have grown up in the days of the little house out back and no electricty, but she did birth us.
:thumbsup
Why did you all leave, you bunch of lilly-livers!!!!
You should have stayed to effect change.
You can carry that cross ... :tease ....
berkeley
02-22-2007, 03:56 PM
Why did you all leave, you bunch of lilly-livers!!!!
You should have stayed to effect change.
Eventually it would come down to leave willfully or eventually be banned from the local assembly.
I almost got canned because I do not believe in dispensationalism. (No, I do not believe in fulfilled eschatology.)
berkeley
02-22-2007, 03:56 PM
Tread lightly gents. It's not nice to talk this way about Mother. She may have grown up in the days of the little house out back and no electricty, but she did birth us.
:thumbsupThe UPC is not my mother.
The 60's example is so old. Try telling that one to a twenty-something business professional. He's gonna think you are a loon.
If you wanna say its your conviction - no problem, but to make it a "thus saith the Lord" is way loco.
i honestly am less worried about what the argument is than I am about consistancy of message. I dont mind a fellow being wrong but when he has to get all contorted like he was playing twister...well you get what Im saying.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 03:59 PM
Tread lightly gents. It's not nice to talk this way about Mother. She may have grown up in the days of the little house out back and no electricty, but she did birth us.
:thumbsup
Good advice. I am not slamming the UPC, just certain elements in and out of it. this is about ideas, not people.
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 03:59 PM
The UPC is not my mother.
Did you receive the Holy Ghost in a UPC church?
PS. It was a figure of speech.
I love the UPC ... but a culture has developed that I cannot be a part of....
berkeley
02-22-2007, 04:00 PM
Did you receive the Holy Ghost in a UPC church?
PS. It was a figure of speech.Then there is no need to answer the question if the following was a figure of speech:
It's not nice to talk this way about Mother.
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 04:00 PM
Good advice. I am not slamming the UPC, just certain elements in and out of it. this is about ideas, not people.
I happen to agree with having free exchanges of ideals. Maybe the UPC needs more of that!
berkeley
02-22-2007, 04:01 PM
I love the UPC ... but a culture has developed that I cannot be a part of....And were are you at today? I'm at a Presbyterian church... almost miserable :)
Tread lightly gents. It's not nice to talk this way about Mother. She may have grown up in the days of the little house out back and no electricty, but she did birth us.
:thumbsup
RevD, the men I know and have known, thank God arent like this.... the UPCI i grew up with wasnt narrow and controlling. I still go to a UPCI church that is not narrow and controlling. IMOH there is more good than bad in the UPCI and I still believe it is the best organization that preaches the Truth. having said that, there is need to discuss the things that need change.
I happen to agree with having free exchanges of ideals. Maybe the UPC needs more of that!
If it was tolerated ... and your HG wasn't questioned if you do have a different view.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 04:04 PM
RevD, the men I know and have known, thank God arent like this.... the UPCI i grew up with wasnt narrow and controlling. I still go to a UPCI church that is not narrow and controlling. IMOH there is more good than bad in the UPCI and I still believe it is the best organization that preaches the Truth. having said that, there is need to discuss the things that need change.
Amen. Why is that when we discuss needed change, we are told to be careful; yet when we are told we need to conform, caution is thrown to the wind. There is no regard given to the feelings of those who disagree with extra-biblical doctrines.
I highly suggest two messages by my pastor about the pressures to conform to tradition ... I know he may not be popular .... but they're solid messages .... IMHO
1. I Must Keep Painting - Dr. Wendell Hutchins II [www.champ.org]
http://www.respiracreative.com/keeppainting.mp3
2. Watch Out for the Brick World - Dr. Wendell Hutchins
http://www.respiracreative.com/bricks.mp3 (http://www.respiracreative.com/keeppainting.mp3)
berkeley
02-22-2007, 04:08 PM
Amen. Why is that when we discuss needed change, we are told to be careful; yet when we are told we need to conform, caution is thrown to the wind. There is no regard given to the feelings of those who disagree with extra-biblical doctrines.
abundans cautela non nocet
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 04:11 PM
RevD, the men I know and have known, thank God arent like this.... the UPCI i grew up with wasnt narrow and controlling. I still go to a UPCI church that is not narrow and controlling. IMOH there is more good than bad in the UPCI and I still believe it is the best organization that preaches the Truth. having said that, there is need to discuss the things that need change.
I says lets discuss ideas all day long [well not all day long as i have a full time job :p ]. Just don't beat up on the UPCI. It's gotten us to where we are even if some have parted ways.
The UPC will not save us, that takes Jesus.
The UPC did not call me to minister, Jesus did.
But the UPC has been a good means of transport.
ReformedDave
02-22-2007, 04:11 PM
What does it have to do with honesty?
1. These issues are not confined to the UPC alone.
2. I've invested too much.
3. Why should I leave because someone wants to hijack the movement?
Honesty? You complain and criticize and yet pretend by staying that you support the Org.
These 'legalists' have always been there.
I says lets discuss ideas all day long [well not all day long as i have a full time job :p ]. Just don't beat up on the UPCI. It's gotten us to where we are even if some have parted ways.
The UPC will not save us, that takes Jesus.
The UPC did not call me to minister, Jesus did.
But the UPC has been a good means of transport.
i dont even see this as a UPCI thing. my UPCI never has been this way. It is a group of men that seek to make the UPCI in their own image. that has to be stopped.
Honesty? You complain and criticize and yet pretend by staying that you support the Org.
These 'legalists' have always been there.
Dave, your UPCI....the California UPCI. That isnt the UPCI I know. Honestly while Ive seen some way too conservitive folk (One girl didnt shave because it was a sin...yuck) that wasnt my church. It wasnt until I came to FCF that I began to see some of this other junk.
I want my version to be the dominant version.
i dont even see this as a UPCI thing. my UPCI never has been this way. It is a group of men that seek to make the UPCI in their own image. that has to be stopped.
It's been codified ... Ferd ... too late in my opinion ... it would mean admitting they were wrong ... that will take more than resolutions.
ReformedDave
02-22-2007, 04:23 PM
Dave, your UPCI....the California UPCI. That isnt the UPCI I know. Honestly while Ive seen some way too conservitive folk (One girl didnt shave because it was a sin...yuck) that wasnt my church. It wasnt until I came to FCF that I began to see some of this other junk.
I want my version to be the dominant version.
I hate that juke just as much as you. But there comes a point that one has to accept the fact that if you cannot change or support it's time to move on.
I hate that juke just as much as you. But there comes a point that one has to accept the fact that if you cannot change or support it's time to move on.
Dave ... it ain't that easy ... you know that ... especially when you factor family,ministry and the fear of the unknown.
ReformedDave
02-22-2007, 04:26 PM
Dave ... it ain't that easy ... you know that ... especially when you factor family,ministry and the fear of the unknown.
Believe me. I know. If one is going to stay and be happy with themselves they have to let it go.
Believe me. I know. If one is going to stay and be happy with themselves they have to let it go.
Letting it go .. won't happen ... not as we are seeing a dying world ... that needs the Gospel ...
Coonskinner
02-22-2007, 04:31 PM
Wow.
ReformedDave
02-22-2007, 04:31 PM
Letting it go .. won't happen ... not as we are seeing a dying world ... that needs the Gospel ...
Then one needs to leave.
Wow.
A microcosm of what's happening ...
Coonskinner
02-22-2007, 04:33 PM
A microcosm of what's happening ...
What's happening is a microcosm being billed as a cataclysmic sweeping event.
What's happening is a microcosm being billed as a cataclysmic sweeping event.
Only time will tell ...
Newman
02-22-2007, 04:53 PM
Only time will tell ...
Indeed. The issue for men is beards; not anything that affects them so profoundly as the standards that women are expected to live by (if they love God of course)!
I suspect these cultural traditions/ preferences aren't sustainable without retreating further from society as the Amish have. jmo ;)
Indeed. The issue for men is beards; not anything that affects them so profoundly as the standards that women are expected to live by (if they love God of course)!
I suspect these cultural traditions/ preferences aren't sustainable without retreating further from society as the Amish have. jmo ;)
Ah ... Deut. 22:5 ... we're taught not to string a doctrine on one or two verses ... yet it's being done with condemnation....
Coonskinner
02-22-2007, 04:58 PM
Ah ... Deut. 5:22 ... we're taught not to string a doctrine on one or two verses ... yet it's being done with condemnation....
Deu 5:22 ¶ These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
Tremendous controversy here. :)
Ronzo
02-22-2007, 04:58 PM
Did you receive the Holy Ghost in a UPC church?
No...
Deu 5:22 ¶ These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
Tremendous controversy here. :)
My dyslexia.
Coonskinner
02-22-2007, 05:03 PM
My dyslexia.
I'm sorry, Brother.
I wouldn't have teased you about that had I known.
I'm sorry, Brother.
I wouldn't have teased you about that had I known.
Once you go beyond that and the leprosy ... I'm really a good guy. :killinme
Ronzo
02-22-2007, 05:06 PM
Once you go beyond that and the leprosy ... I'm really a good guy. :killinme
... and the smell... don't forget the smell....
:beatdeadhorse
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 05:19 PM
... and the smell... don't forget the smell....
:beatdeadhorse
:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme
:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme
DW if we wanted your opinion we'd rattle your cage ....
http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/monkey-cage-07.jpg
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 05:23 PM
DW if you wanted your opinion we'd rattle your cage ....
http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/monkey-cage-07.jpg
:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme
Hey, that was a pretty good come back..................for you.......:highfive
It's been codified ... Ferd ... too late in my opinion ... it would mean admitting they were wrong ... that will take more than resolutions.
Oh please. if that were true, jack booted thugs would have walked into POA and taken AMs card. this is mythology my friend. the fact is the ultra cons are prepareing to exit if and when the UPCI vote for advertising on television.
But I do understand why you felt the need to walk away. while things like TV and standards have not been codified, doctrine still matters.
Deu 5:22 ¶ These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
Tremendous controversy here. :)
LOL!
Oh please. if that were true, jack booted thugs would have walked into POA and taken AMs card. this is mythology my friend. the fact is the ultra cons are prepareing to exit if and when the UPCI vote for advertising on television.
But I do understand why you felt the need to walk away. while things like TV and standards have not been codified, doctrine still matters.
Far from the mark .... more I know what you're thinking .... rhetoric. :ty
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 05:28 PM
Far from the mark .... more I know what you're thinking .... rhetoric. :ty
Wow......you have the power to read minds? We frown on that in the UPC.....:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme
Wow......you have the power to read minds? We frown on that in the UPC.....:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme
Modus operandi ...
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 05:32 PM
Modus operandi ...
There you go again in them there foreign tongues.....can't you speak no english??? :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme
Nahum
02-22-2007, 05:42 PM
Coonskinner's here! Now we will get somewhere in this discussion.
Everybody get ready to be spanked.
Sister Truth Seeker
02-22-2007, 06:17 PM
Has anyone ever read JR Ensey's book, does God really care about facial hair?
Pastor I don't really know you so I don't know your stand on UPC or the standards...I have not been very interested in battles over standards for some time...the reason being everyone has his or her opinion and there is nothing anyone can write outside of UPC that will phase them...I have done a lot of research and I really don't find much to support in a clear manner what standards are to be....
I was out for two years and have been back in for getting close to a year now...
Standards seem to be such a point of contention among so many, and the thing I have found it that for everyone that has researched scripture on these points finds their own opinion...most in UPC won't go to any outside commentary, because they assume if it does not line up with UPC it has to be wrong....
I for one don't think hair, dress, pants, skirts, jewelry or any other outward appearance will determine our path to heaven. What we feel inside is reflected on the outside...how we love God and our neighbors is what is going to be the important things to God...how many souls did we love, how many souls did he reach through us...I can't "save" anyone, but God can use me...I see little new friut...
Scott Hutchinson
02-22-2007, 06:35 PM
Apparently facial hair,never bothered Elder DL.Welch cause brothers have facial hair at The first pentecostal church UPCI in Pensacola,FL.
http://www.firstpent.org
Far from the mark .... more I know what you're thinking .... rhetoric. :ty
actually all that I was thinking is that from your posts on issues like doctrine, you are far removed from what the baseline moderate UPCI person is. nothing more or less.
that and I dont agree with you on this idea of these things being "codified"
this thread is about standards. I assume when you say things are codified, you speak of standards... which clearly isnt "codified" as I can point to con, mod and Lib. pastors in the UPCI.
now if you were refering to doctrine, then you did so in a thread about standards... but to a great degree, the doctrine has been more clearly codifed since the 92 AS.
But please Daniel, it has been a decade and a half. dont blame that for your...evalution.
Ronzo
02-22-2007, 07:55 PM
Oh please. if that were true, jack booted thugs would have walked into POA and taken AMs card. this is mythology my friend. the fact is the ultra cons are prepareing to exit if and when the UPCI vote for advertising on television.
But I do understand why you felt the need to walk away. while things like TV and standards have not been codified, doctrine still matters.
Yer a little too smarmy wid diz comment, bro...
Yer a little too smarmy wid diz comment, bro...
No .. not Ferd ... He never mocks anyone ...
Ronzo
02-22-2007, 07:59 PM
No .. not Ferd ... He never mocks anyone ...
you're both my friends... I don't want to be in the middle of it... but I don't think that was a fair statement by him by any stretch of the imagination.
Yer a little too smarmy wid diz comment, bro...
i am wondering if you saw the Holy Grail comment....
i am wondering if you saw the Holy Grail comment....
ah ... the 'two wrongs make a right' argument .... Love you Ferdy !! :heeheehee
No .. not Ferd ... He never mocks anyone ...
oh i mock... I even get smarmy... I just wasnt being here. it wasnt a jab but I can see where it would come across that way.....Ronzo keeps me honest.
but honestly Dont you agree that your doctrinal postion is pretty far removed from mainline UPCI?
ah ... the 'two wrongs make a right' argument .... Love you Ferdy !! :heeheehee
Daniel, did you see my clairification?
oh i mock... I even get smarmy... I just wasnt being here. it wasnt a jab but I can see where it would come across that way.....Ronzo keeps me honest.
but honestly Dont you agree that your doctrinal postion is pretty far removed from mainline UPCI?
Howard Goss ... I guess wasn't mainstream either???? LOL
Howard Goss ... I guess wasn't mainstream either???? LOL
oh no. you dont get to claim that buddy. just because you read TF doesnt mean you get to make some claim on the PCI doctrine. you said yourself you left in november of last year. that would be 15 years too late to be making a claim no Howard Goss.
And for your information, I am the one that has called the Affermations statement the infernal document.... and have called it that longer than youve been posting on these forums. I have looooong held that there SHOULD be a place for the PCI folk in the UPCI even now.
Daniel, having seen some of what youve posted, honestly I am not real convinced you are in the same place the Goss and the others were. But we can continue the discussion and find out.... and I am not being smarmy.
ManOfWord
02-22-2007, 08:31 PM
I am so sick and tired of the bonds of legalism that a small minority within our movement want to place us in. This minority is affecting many things within the Apostolic culture. There is a dawning realization in me that rules can never replace relationship. Real morality is placed deep within the heart of a man who is in love with Jesus. No rule can ever take the place of that intimacy.
The spirit of abortion is in hundreds of legalistic position papers we have been formulating for decades. It is found in the heavy-handedness of supposed elders, who rebuke the cognitive process in the young as rebellious, and by default, wicked. It is found in every sermon that focuses on works of man more than the Work of God's grace.
The spirit of abortion is alive and well in many churches today. We rely on persona and tradition more than a sovereign move of the Holy Ghost. There are far too few prayer meetings nowadays. Instead, we run after every self-proclaimed Apostolic guru that lands on a conference stage.
I'm tired of politics. I'm tired of self-promotion. I'm tired of a complete lack of integrity in high levels of leadership.
This spirit is killing real revival.
Hoooooooooo Weeeeee!
Sounds like someone is getting a revelation!!!!! Sounds like someone is having a personal revival!!!! Sounds like someone is getting born again.....again!!!!
From my own personal experience, this is a very difficult position to be in. When the tower of TRADITION begins to shake and quake and crack and crumble, TRUTH is will be the only thing left standing.
Let 'er fall and let TRUTH prevail!!!! Hang in there bro! It's just like breaking the sound barrier. It gets real scary and feels like the plane is going to come apart and then..................it just settles down and before you know it, you've broken the sound barrier and it all smooths out!!!!
The Jesus that led you into it will lead you out of it. Follow the CLOUD!! :D
oh no. you dont get to claim that buddy. just because you read TF doesnt mean you get to make some claim on the PCI doctrine. you said yourself you left in november of last year. that would be 15 years too late to be making a claim no Howard Goss.
And for your information, I am the one that has called the Affermations statement the infernal document.... and have called it that longer than youve been posting on these forums. I have looooong held that there SHOULD be a place for the PCI folk in the UPCI even now.
Daniel, having seen some of what youve posted, honestly I am not real convinced you are in the same place the Goss and the others were. But we can continue the discussion and find out.... and I am not being smarmy.
Ferd ... has it ever occurred that my PCI view is newly formed ... why do you insist being a mind reader ... just ask Ronzo where I stand ... please stop w/ this 'monopoly' on truth bit.
berkeley
02-22-2007, 08:38 PM
MOW,
Was David Masmundt PCI when he left your church, or was he still PAJC?
philjones
02-22-2007, 08:38 PM
PP,
There are many who say the PAJC perspective, WITHOUT the traditions and separation teachings, is a gospel of Salvation by works rather than faith.
I have one question... how long before you decide that strict adherence to Acts 2:38 is also possessed of the Spirit of Abortion?
I find many of your threads quite good. This one is putrid and pathetic as far as I am concerned!
PP,
There are many who say the PAJC perspective, WITHOUT the traditions and separation teachings, is a gospel of Salvation by works rather than faith.
I have one question... how long before you decide that strict adherence to Acts 2:38 is also possessed of the Spirit of Abortion?
I find many of your threads quite good. This one is putrid and pathetic as far as I am concerned!
Funny ... I smell roses.
philjones
02-22-2007, 08:42 PM
Funny ... I smell roses.
I have no idea what that means but I hope you like roses!:tease
I have not and will not read any more of the thread than the first page. i am done with this topic!
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 08:48 PM
I have no idea what that means but I hope you like roses!:tease
I have not and will not read any more of the thread than the first page. i am done with this topic!
Read a little further....it won't hurt.........see post #38
Ferd ... has it ever occurred that my PCI view is newly formed ... why do you insist being a mind reader ... just ask Ronzo where I stand ... please stop w/ this 'monopoly' on truth bit.
Ronzo and I understand each other. He will tell you that I dont waive the "Monoply on truth flag".... once more with feeling. I have always held the opinion that the UPCI was wrong in 1992 and there should still be room for the PCI people. so that monopoly on truth thing doesnt play.
so yes, it occurred to me that you have just recently come to your current view. weither or not this view is "PCI" I am not convinced. Im not being unkind here Daniel. But I see a lot of guys that have decided that the denominal world is right and their former view was wrong and they then lable that as "PCI". But that isnt what those PCI men like Howard Goss believed. (I really wish you could have seen the George Glass Sr. Thread on NFCF... it might shed some light.
those PCI men preached the Gospel message and Acts 2:38 that saints in the church would never have been able to seperate them from the Water/Spirit men.
Absolutly they would debate where salvation occured. For them repentance. But all of them said that the repentant WOULD without fail experiance Acts 2:38 in total.
Does that look like you?
PP,
There are many who say the PAJC perspective, WITHOUT the traditions and separation teachings, is a gospel of Salvation by works rather than faith.
I have one question... how long before you decide that strict adherence to Acts 2:38 is also possessed of the Spirit of Abortion?
I find many of your threads quite good. This one is putrid and pathetic as far as I am concerned!
wow that was kind of harsh. funny thing here is that ive sided with PP on much of what he has said but in the same thread, defended the Water Spirit position. aint that the bomb.
philjones
02-22-2007, 08:53 PM
Read a little further....it won't hurt.........see post #38
Rev,
I am really put off by the premise PP has put forth! It would serve no purpose for me to read further! My view is already so jaundiced that I doubt I could glean much.
Rev,
I am really put off by the premise PP has put forth! It would serve no purpose for me to read further! My view is already so jaundiced that I doubt I could glean much.
oh come on Phil. READ post 38....good grief.
philjones
02-22-2007, 08:56 PM
wow that was kind of harsh. funny thing here is that ive sided with PP on much of what he has said but in the same thread, defended the Water Spirit position. aint that the bomb.
So what "spirits of abortion" have you identified in the Oneness movement? I am pretty sure I embrace all of them so why don't you go ahead and blow up my clinic with "the bomb"!
ManOfWord
02-22-2007, 08:58 PM
MOW,
Was David Masmundt PCI when he left your church, or was he still PAJC?
Berk, to be honest, you'd have to ask him what his views were then and what they are now. I would not be the best one to give you a read on that. I was asked to pastor here after he left and after another pastor was installed.
philjones
02-22-2007, 08:58 PM
I love the UPC ... but a culture has developed that I cannot be a part of....
I respect you for taking the step to follow your heart instead of trying to destroy or change what many love just like it is!:ty
RevDWW
02-22-2007, 09:01 PM
Tread lightly gents. It's not nice to talk this way about Mother. She may have grown up in the days of the little house out back and no electricty, but she did birth us.
:thumbsup
Here's the one I wanted you to read.
ManOfWord
02-22-2007, 09:05 PM
I respect you for taking the step to follow your heart instead of trying to destroy or change what many love just like it is!:ty
Bro, there are also many who are just as passionate about change and being progressive. Both "views" have the right to facilitate change within the guidelines of the org's manual. :D
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:07 PM
Here's the one I wanted you to read.
I did go and read it. I appreciate your perspective and thank you for recognizing that some of what is written here is like slapping your mother because you have become enlightened in your own eyes and she has not!
I am not in agreement with everything that goes on in our movement either but I don't think there is anyone intentionally killing babes in Christ! To say that the "spirit of abortion" is present and at work in the church would imply that men in leadership have made the death of infants their intent! It is an offensive and, in my opinion, an ignorant premise!
Ronzo and I understand each other. He will tell you that I dont waive the "Monoply on truth flag".... once more with feeling. I have always held the opinion that the UPCI was wrong in 1992 and there should still be room for the PCI people. so that monopoly on truth thing doesnt play.
so yes, it occurred to me that you have just recently come to your current view. weither or not this view is "PCI" I am not convinced. Im not being unkind here Daniel. But I see a lot of guys that have decided that the denominal world is right and their former view was wrong and they then lable that as "PCI". But that isnt what those PCI men like Howard Goss believed. (I really wish you could have seen the George Glass Sr. Thread on NFCF... it might shed some light.
those PCI men preached the Gospel message and Acts 2:38 that saints in the church would never have been able to seperate them from the Water/Spirit men.
Absolutly they would debate where salvation occured. For them repentance. But all of them said that the repentant WOULD without fail experience Acts 2:38 in total.
Does that look like you?
You have woven a web of your own making, Ferd .... men like Yadon were very clear in TF's book ... they preached Acts 2:38 with the same fervor because it is God's Word ... but clearly the distinction was defined and clear ... and their views of baptismal regeneration were stark in comparison ... I have never asserted that we should not obey Acts 2:38 but you would rather pontificate about how I don't get it ... if you see eye to eye w/ Ron then you'd should know I'm probably to his right .... sheesh ...
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:09 PM
Bro, there are also many who are just as passionate about change and being progressive. Both "views" have the right to facilitate change within the guidelines of the org's manual. :D
I suppose you are right. I just find the title and premise of this thread to be grossly out of line with reality! It is a false portrayal of the majority of men I know in the UPCI and I think PP needs to settle his personal issues before trying to pin them on the lapels of men he does not know!
I suppose you are right. I just find the title and premise of this thread to be grossly out of line with reality! It is a false portrayal of the majority of men I know in the UPCI and I think PP needs to settle his personal issues before trying to pin them on the lapels of men he does not know!
I would agree that most men in the UPCI are awesome Men of God ... but there is a "holocaust" that is happening throughout the entire Apostolic/Christian movement that deserves our attention.
ManOfWord
02-22-2007, 09:15 PM
I suppose you are right. I just find the title and premise of this thread to be grossly out of line with reality! It is a false portrayal of the majority of men I know in the UPCI and I think PP needs to settle his personal issues before trying to pin them on the lapels of men he does not know!
PP can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem to me that he is having an "epiphany" of sorts.
These types of things cause most of us to react in ways that others seem to misinterpret. I think he is being honest how he feels about what is happening in his heart. We all also have the right to disagree with how one describes what is happening in their heart and how they see it.
PP can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem to me that he is having an "epiphany" of sorts.
These types of things cause most of us to react in ways that others seem to misinterpret. I think he is being honest how he feels about what is happening in his heart. We all also have the right to disagree with how one describes what is happening in their heart and how they see it.
MOW ... part of the his Journey.
berkeley
02-22-2007, 09:17 PM
PP can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem to me that he is having an "epiphany" of sorts.
These types of things cause most of us to react in ways that others seem to misinterpret. I think he is being honest how he feels about what is happening in his heart. We all also have the right to disagree with how one describes what is happening in their heart and how they see it.
oh yeah... I hear the call "come out from among them.." hehehe:tease
So what "spirits of abortion" have you identified in the Oneness movement? I am pretty sure I embrace all of them so why don't you go ahead and blow up my clinic with "the bomb"!
I prefer digging a hole underneith the clinic and boring a hole into the clinic then pumping cement into the clinic until it is full and turns into a solid block of useless cement.
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:18 PM
I would agree that most men in the UPCI are awesome Men of God ... but there is a "holocaust" that is happening throughout the entire Apostolic/Christian movement that deserves our attention.
So you are a button pusher too? Holocaust?! You guys are amazing! You don't even have any idea what you are speaking of!
I will laugh so i don't cry! Are these the buzz words you are picking up from NCO.. if so, you have made up my mind as to whether I am interested in fellowshipping there!
Bro, there are also many who are just as passionate about change and being progressive. Both "views" have the right to facilitate change within the guidelines of the org's manual. :D
and some of us advocate keeping room in the UPCI for the various views that have historically been a part of the UPCI. That is what I have always wanted.
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:20 PM
PP can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem to me that he is having an "epiphany" of sorts.
These types of things cause most of us to react in ways that others seem to misinterpret. I think he is being honest how he feels about what is happening in his heart. We all also have the right to disagree with how one describes what is happening in their heart and how they see it.
Well, I would prefer that he get through his epiphany in solitude and not smear everything he is regurgitating in the perceived "cleansing process" all over everyone else!
So you are a button pusher too? Holocaust?! You guys are amazing! You don't even have any idea what you are speaking of!
I will laugh so i don't cry! Are these the buzz words you are picking up from NCO.. if so, you have made up my mind as to whether I am interested in fellowshipping there!
Phil .. this is farthest from what I've heard at from NCO ... quite the opposite ... you can bury your head in the sand ... no problem ... I've been around the block too ... I've got plenty to base it on ... Don't cry ... dry your eye ... and see what some in the movement are feeling.
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:22 PM
and some of us advocate keeping room in the UPCI for the various views that have historically been a part of the UPCI. That is what I have always wanted.
Ferd,
I too am in favor of this position! I don't see men as abortionists or guards of the Gulag just because we don't agree! That is why I am so opposed to the histrionics and mis-characterizations!
ManOfWord
02-22-2007, 09:23 PM
Well, I would prefer that he get through his epiphany in solitude and not smear everything he is regurgitating in the perceived "cleansing process" all over everyone else!
I understand how you might feel, however, that is one of the reasons this forum exists. People need a sounding board for their ideas. If they're in the UPC they CERTAINLY can't get help from within or ask questions. Once one does that, they are labelled and too frequently ostracized.
Ferd,
I too am in favor of this position! I don't see men as abortionists or guards of the Gulag just because we don't agree! That is why I am so opposed to the histrionics and mis-characterizations!
You don't see it happening because it's already be done.
You have woven a web of your own making, Ferd .... men like Yadon were very clear in TF's book ... they preached Acts 2:38 with the same fervor because it is God's Word ... but clearly the distinction was defined and clear ... and their views of baptismal regeneration were stark in comparison ... I have never asserted that we should not obey Acts 2:38 but you would rather pontificate about how I don't get it ... if you see eye to eye w/ Ron then you'd should know I'm probably to his right .... sheesh ...
Loren Yadon was the assistant pastor of my home church. I think I can speak with some clairity on the subject.
as for what you beleive, this isnt our first round on the subject bro. Ron and I dont see eye to eye but we respect each other.... I would like for you and I to find that same middle ground. Go back to the other thread from this morning and read thru it with an unbiased eye and tell me that there was no cause for me to be taken aback by what you were saying... and look at the questions I asked that you didnt answer.
its time for bed. night night. until tomorrow my friend.
HeavenlyOne
02-22-2007, 09:25 PM
PP can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem to me that he is having an "epiphany" of sorts.
These types of things cause most of us to react in ways that others seem to misinterpret. I think he is being honest how he feels about what is happening in his heart. We all also have the right to disagree with how one describes what is happening in their heart and how they see it.
Whether it's the majority or rarely happens, the fact is, it does happen, and it shouldn't. Many people are hurt in the process.
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:27 PM
Phil .. this is farthest from what I've heard at from NCO ... quite the opposite ... you can bury your head in the sand ... no problem ... I've been around the block too ... I've got plenty to base it on ... Don't cry ... dry your eye ... and see what some in the movement are feeling.
Dan,
I am aware of what many in the movement are feeling. Some of the feelings are justified; others are trumped up! Either way, the character assassinations and erroneous comparisons to abortionists and holocaust specialist is absurd! Abortion and leading folks into a gas chamber are intentional acts of evil men with seared consciences. I do not know of a single pastor in the UPC or otherwise that is guilty of that kind of charge!
if you think my head is in the sand then you need a wake up call cause you are dreaming! I just choose to use a little common sense and decorum in my characterizations of good and Godly men!
Ferd,
I too am in favor of this position! I don't see men as abortionists or guards of the Gulag just because we don't agree! That is why I am so opposed to the histrionics and mis-characterizations!
Phil here is the last thing i am going to say on any subject tonight. There are a group of men who are very much of the way far right conservitive persuasion...led in large part by some fellows out west.... that are as close to spiritual abortionists as they can be. THEY are the ones that have been actively attempting to hijack the UPCI. period. surely you recognize that fact.
I do not want the conservitives to go away. but 15 years later I am still upset about men like Elder Yadon getting kicked out.
Loren Yadon was the assistant pastor of my home church. I think I can speak with some clairity on the subject.
as for what you beleive, this isnt our first round on the subject bro. Ron and I dont see eye to eye but we respect each other.... I would like for you and I to find that same middle ground. Go back to the other thread from this morning and read thru it with an unbiased eye and tell me that there was no cause for me to be taken aback by what you were saying... and look at the questions I asked that you didnt answer.
its time for bed. night night. until tomorrow my friend.
Ferd I didnt answer because I see them as rhetorical questions ... you know the answers from the other side already ... why rehash what you've discussed with others on this subject before????... probing me will serve no purpose but to justify why you think you're right and why you think the PCI view is wrong ... nuff said ... what you fail to see is a movement from the right ... to center the TRUTH on one scripture ... a graven image of sorts.... that was my point this morning ... nothing more ...nothing less ...
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:29 PM
You don't see it happening because it's already be done.
So, Dan, which Abortionists and Hitlers do you suggest we put on trial. Why don't you name some names since it has already happened! You say some pretty bizarre things friend. I guess if I knew you better I might have a better understanding of which side of Jupiter you are coming from. :)
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:31 PM
Phil here is the last thing i am going to say on any subject tonight. There are a group of men who are very much of the way far right conservitive persuasion...led in large part by some fellows out west.... that are as close to spiritual abortionists as they can be. THEY are the ones that have been actively attempting to hijack the UPCI. period. surely you recognize that fact.
I do not want the conservitives to go away. but 15 years later I am still upset about men like Elder Yadon getting kicked out.
We disagree. You are wrong! You have that right!:tease
So, Dan, which Abortionists and Hitlers do you suggest we put on trial. Why don't you name some names since it has already happened! You say some pretty bizarre things friend. I guess if I knew you better I might have a better understanding of which side of Jupiter you are coming from. :)
Those seeking heads come from the right ... no one is looking to adjudicate anyone ... just to point out the hijackers' intents and atrocities.
ManOfWord
02-22-2007, 09:33 PM
Whether it's the majority or rarely happens, the fact is, it does happen, and it shouldn't. Many people are hurt in the process.
HO, that is a fact that cannot be swept under the rug. There are many good pastors in the UPC, of that there can be no question. But there are also those, too many of those, who slice and dice saints like it is a blood sport in the name of control and boast that at least they have not "let down" on the doctrine. Mistreatment of God's sheep is never acceptable, especially in the name of religion.
HeavenlyOne
02-22-2007, 09:35 PM
I understand how you might feel, however, that is one of the reasons this forum exists. People need a sounding board for their ideas. If they're in the UPC they CERTAINLY can't get help from within or ask questions. Once one does that, they are labelled and too frequently ostracized.
This attitude is apparent on forums also.
And some wonder why we prefer to remain anonymous............
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:36 PM
Those seeking heads come from the right ... no one is looking to adjudicate anyone ... just to point out the hijackers' intents and atrocities.
Whatever! I should have stuck to my original intent and stayed out of this foolishness!
I find your position just as despicable as those you say are coming from the right. I look at you and I see pot calling kettle black! you are so caught up in your own wisdom and enlightenment that you cannot see that you are guilty of the same thing you accuse others of! Except, of course, you are always right and the rest of us are Baby Killers and Murderers. Only you have the capacity to love or even know what that is!
HeavenlyOne
02-22-2007, 09:37 PM
HO, that is a fact that cannot be swept under the rug. There are many good pastors in the UPC, of that there can be no question. But there are also those, too many of those, who slice and dice saints like it is a blood sport in the name of control and boast that at least they have not "let down" on the doctrine. Mistreatment of God's sheep is never acceptable, especially in the name of religion.
I've had both kinds of pastors. Having a 'slice and dice' pastor for 13 years did something to me......something I've been trying to get over for almost 20 years now.
Whatever! I should have stuck to my original intent and stayed out of this foolishness!
I find your position just as despicable as those you say are coming from the right. I look at you and I see pot calling kettle black! you are so caught up in your own wisdom and enlightenment that you cannot see that you are guilty of the same thing you accuse others of! Except, of course, you are always right and the rest of us are Baby Killers and Murderers. Only you have the capacity to love or even know what that is!
Hey Phil ... Whatever!!! :killinme
I've had both kinds of pastors. Having a 'slice and dice' pastor for 13 years did something to me......something I've been trying to get over for almost 20 years now.
According to Phil ... it doesn't happen ... at least intentionally. :dunno
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:39 PM
HO, that is a fact that cannot be swept under the rug. There are many good pastors in the UPC, of that there can be no question. But there are also those, too many of those, who slice and dice saints like it is a blood sport in the name of control and boast that at least they have not "let down" on the doctrine. Mistreatment of God's sheep is never acceptable, especially in the name of religion.
MOW,
It happens in your all love world of liberalism too! Don't make it out to be and exclusive right of the UPC. Men who hold to nothing use other means than standards to control and brow beat folks. It is a common malady where ever men are found!
Scott Hutchinson
02-22-2007, 09:40 PM
I love yall of good folks,I'll see yall later.
MOW,
It happens in your all love world of liberalism too! Don't make it out to be and exclusive right of the UPC. Men who hold to nothing use other means than standards to control and brow beat folks. It is a common malady where ever men are found!
Two wrongs will never make a right.
ReformedDave
02-22-2007, 09:41 PM
There is wrong on BOTH sides of the issue!!!! Like I've said before if it bugs someone so very much they should leave unless they can effect change. If you've already left, it's really not constructive to throw stones.
Scott Hutchinson
02-22-2007, 09:42 PM
BTW the only control I want to see folks under is being under the control of The Holy Ghost,cause when He leads you you'll be led right.
There is wrong on BOTH sides of the issue!!!! Like I've said before if it bugs someone so very much they should leave unless they can effect change. If you've already left, it's really not constructive to throw stones.
Tony Gwynn's the man, Dave ... saw him in SD ... in his last year ... in a game against the Mets .....
http://www.sportskool.com/images/coaches/coachBio_TonyGwynn.jpg
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:43 PM
According to Phil ... it doesn't happen ... at least intentionally. :dunno
I apologize if you perceived that I felt that it doesn't happen. I know that there are abusers in every religious movement. I also know that it has nothing to do with con lib mod or even pentecostal. It has to do with men... period.
I still say that the men in the UPCI that, as a group, have been drawn and quartered here do not, as a group, intentionally kill the innocents or lead folks astray!
It appears that you have been sharing dirty needles and may have picked up spiritual hepatitis... your view is certainly jaundiced! :)
ReformedDave
02-22-2007, 09:45 PM
Tony Gwynn's the man, Dave ... saw him in SD ... in his last year ... in a game against the Mets .....
http://www.sportskool.com/images/coaches/coachBio_TonyGwynn.jpg
My wife and I will be at his induction this year!!!!!! We've followed his whole career.
philjones
02-22-2007, 09:47 PM
Tony Gwynn's the man, Dave ... saw him in SD ... in his last year ... in a game against the Mets .....
http://www.sportskool.com/images/coaches/coachBio_TonyGwynn.jpg
Dan,
At least you know something about baseball!:killinme :killinme :bliss
rgcraig
02-22-2007, 09:49 PM
You guys keep it down to a low roar and have fun!
Last one to turn out the lights, say a prayer for everyone else!
Nahum
02-22-2007, 09:50 PM
Brother Jones,
I apologize for offending you and anyone else. I am operating from a growing frustration at these sort of things. If you read the full body of my posts, you will see that I only spoke of ideas, and not people.
It is never my intent to harm anyone. That being said, if I would have been of a different philosophical viewpoint, I could have said something to the effect that "sports is killing our kids". And of course, that would have been perfectly acceptable to you and others.
By saying something like that, I would be saying that parents and pastors that allow such things are committing spiritual abortion. My brother, can you see the hypocrisy innvolved?
Why can one group say it, and be perfectly within logical bounds. Yet when I say it against another extreme, I am offensive and disrespectful. The irony is that this is the exact issue I alluded to in the original post.
I wanted to explain myself. I will leave it alone now, unless you need further clarification.
Dan,
At least you know something about baseball!:killinme :killinme :bliss
http://www.odessafile.com/YankeeLogo.jpg
can someone say 26 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!!!!!!
ManOfWord
02-22-2007, 09:51 PM
MOW,
It happens in your all love world of liberalism too! Don't make it out to be and exclusive right of the UPC. Men who hold to nothing use other means than standards to control and brow beat folks. It is a common malady where ever men are found!
My world is NOT an all love world. Unlike Joel Osteen, who was just on the news and admitted it, I DO preach against sin and call sinful behavior what it is. I DO preach separation. I just don't it in "clothes." (pun intended)
It is not exclusive to the UPC, but that is what is being discussed here. Yes, there are liberals as well who wield control over their followers with craziness.
ReformedDave
02-22-2007, 09:52 PM
http://www.odessafile.com/YankeeLogo.jpg
can someone say 26 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!!!!!!
Still looking for #1:sad :sad
Still looking for #1:sad :sad
Nothing like that TINO MARTINEZ GRAND SLAM IN 1998 ... CAN YOU SAY SWEEP ... although Gwynn did not embarrass himself ... he was just too good.
berkeley
02-22-2007, 09:57 PM
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l242/disorderlyprofusion/sox2.jpg
Nahum
02-22-2007, 09:59 PM
Brother Jones,
I never said the issue I was talking about is exclusive to the UPC. I never named names. I did mention specific ideas that are harmful. I did not bash anyone. On the contrary, I agreed with one poster who sounded the caution alarm.
If you believe there are certain liberal ideas that are harmful, and even spiritually deadly to the soul of a man, surely you can agree that too much legalism ends to the same sort of death.
Both are wrong. I am trying to find a happy median in life. MOW was partially right, I detest certain attitudes that are currently on display. Apparently, you detest mine. For that I truly apologize.
crakjak
02-22-2007, 09:59 PM
Can you even begin to imagine? A book written to solidify the idea that having facial hair is sinful? And this while the bible plainly states they plucked the Saviour's beard. Not to mention the fact that history teaches us that it was the custom of true Apostolic men to have a beard. It was a badge of masculinity.
Shows the lengths that men go for control and manipulation, intended or not!
I don't believe facial hair is even on God's radar screen concerning holiness. The whole idea is so ridiculous.
Berk ... can you say ... ANOMALY ... ONCE EVERY 80 YEARS!!!!!!!! WHO'S YOUR DADDY???
Nahum
02-22-2007, 10:02 PM
Brother Jones,
I apologize for offending you and anyone else. I am operating from a growing frustration at these sort of things. If you read the full body of my posts, you will see that I only spoke of ideas, and not people.
It is never my intent to harm anyone. That being said, if I would have been of a different philosophical viewpoint, I could have said something to the effect that "sports is killing our kids". And of course, that would have been perfectly acceptable to you and others.
By saying something like that, I would be saying that parents and pastors that allow such things are committing spiritual abortion. My brother, can you see the hypocrisy innvolved?
Why can one group say it, and be perfectly within logical bounds. Yet when I say it against another extreme, I am offensive and disrespectful. The irony is that this is the exact issue I alluded to in the original post.
I wanted to explain myself. I will leave it alone now, unless you need further clarification.
Bump for Brother Jones
Nahum
02-22-2007, 10:02 PM
Brother Jones,
I never said the issue I was talking about is exclusive to the UPC. I never named names. I did mention specific ideas that are harmful. I did not bash anyone. On the contrary, I agreed with one poster who sounded the caution alarm.
If you believe there are certain liberal ideas that are harmful, and even spiritually deadly to the soul of a man, surely you can agree that too much legalism ends to the same sort of death.
Both are wrong. I am trying to find a happy median in life. MOW was partially right, I detest certain attitudes that are currently on display. Apparently, you detest mine. For that I truly apologize.
Bump for Brother Jones
berkeley
02-22-2007, 10:03 PM
Berk ... can you say ... ANOMALY ... ONCE EVERY 80 YEARS!!!!!!!! WHO'S YOUR DADDY???Mang, if you were here we'd have to scrap!!
ManOfWord
02-22-2007, 10:04 PM
Brother Jones,
I never said the issue I was talking about is exclusive to the UPC. I never named names. I did mention specific ideas that are harmful. I did not bash anyone. On the contrary, I agreed with one poster who sounded the caution alarm.
If you believe there are certain liberal ideas that are harmful, and even spiritually deadly to the soul of a man, surely you can agree that too much legalism ends to the same sort of death.
Both are wrong. I am trying to find a happy median in life. MOW was partially right, I detest certain attitudes that are currently on display. Apparently, you detest mine. For that I truly apologize.
PP, just for the record here, from an Admin point of view, you have not crossed the line in anythng you have posted here in this thread or bashed anyone. Everyone here has a right to share their opinions and feelings.
Mang, if you were here we'd have to scrap!!
You're still a chump ....:tease
philjones
02-22-2007, 10:04 PM
Brother Jones,
I apologize for offending you and anyone else. I am operating from a growing frustration at these sort of things. If you read the full body of my posts, you will see that I only spoke of ideas, and not people.
It is never my intent to harm anyone. That being said, if I would have been of a different philosophical viewpoint, I could have said something to the effect that "sports is killing our kids". And of course, that would have been perfectly acceptable to you and others.
By saying something like that, I would be saying that parents and pastors that allow such things are committing spiritual abortion. My brother, can you see the hypocrisy innvolved?
Why can one group say it, and be perfectly within logical bounds. Yet when I say it against another extreme, I am offensive and disrespectful. The irony is that this is the exact issue I alluded to in the original post.
I wanted to explain myself. I will leave it alone now, unless you need further clarification.
PP,
Apology accepted as offered!
You are mistaken, however, regarding the pass you would be given for making a foolish statement like "sports is killing our kids". That is preposterous and certainly not typical of most UPC pastors I know. If that has been typical of your experience, I am sorry!
As for the abortion issue, please revisit my posts and see that I deny that there is INTENT to kill in the hearts of these you are opposed to. They may occasionally have a miscarriage but they are NOT abortionists. Big difference in my book between an abortionist and a woman who has a miscarriage. Do you see my point and why I find it offensive.
While I am personally conservative, I do not use my personal stand as a basis for fellowship. I have dear friends in both camps (think Elder Epley and Old Paths and NLYP and Ronzo).
Either way, I pray that you settle your issues and come to a place of peace without destroying others in the process.
No hard feelings or offense here!:drawguns
Nahum
02-22-2007, 10:06 PM
PP, just for the record here, from an Admin point of view, you have not crossed the line in anythng you have posted here in this thread or bashed anyone. Everyone here has a right to share their opinions and feelings.
I appreciate that, but I am not worried about being reprimanded. I am more interested in the opinion of my forum friends. I would never intentionally hurt them. Sometimes I am too passionate, and it comes through the wrong way.
If I am not careful, I will exhibit the very thing I originally posted against.
That would be incredibly self-defeating.
Nahum
02-22-2007, 10:10 PM
PP,
Apology accepted as offered!
You are mistaken, however, regarding the pass you would be given for making a foolish statement like "sports is killing our kids". That is preposterous and certainly not typical of most UPC pastors I know. If that has been typical of your experience, I am sorry!
As for the abortion issue, please revisit my posts and see that I deny that there is INTENT to kill in the hearts of these you are opposed to. They may occasionally have a miscarriage but they are NOT abortionists. Big difference in my book between an abortionist and a woman who has a miscarriage. Do you see my point and why I find it offensive.
While I am personally conservative, I do not use my personal stand as a basis for fellowship. I have dear friends in both camps (think Elder Epley and Old Paths and NLYP and Ronzo).
Either way, I pray that you settle your issues and come to a place of peace without destroying others in the process.
No hard feelings or offense here!:drawguns
The pass you say would not have been given has been offered many times on different forums we are familiar with. I would have been better not to vent on AFF.
The pass you say would not have been given has been offered many times on different forums we are familiar with. I would have been better not to vent on AFF.
I think it's healthy ... PP. Really.
ManOfWord
02-22-2007, 10:11 PM
I appreciate that, but I am not worried about being reprimanded. I am more interested in the opinion of my forum friends. I would never intentionally hurt them. Sometimes I am too passionate, and it comes through the wrong way.
If I am not careful, I will exhibit the very thing I originally posted against.
That would be incredibly self-defeating.
I well understand. I just don't want folks to think that we're against "spirited" debate and discussion.
As you were..................:D
philjones
02-22-2007, 10:12 PM
The pass you say would not have been given has been offered many times on different forums we are familiar with. I would have been better not to vent on AFF.
I can assure you that the pass would not have been given by me. I can only speak for myself on that one but it is not a common opinion among the UPCI men I fellowship.
berkeley
02-22-2007, 10:14 PM
You're still a chump ....:tease
s'all good man.. you're reaching 40!! :bliss
HeavenlyOne
02-22-2007, 10:16 PM
PP,
Apology accepted as offered!
You are mistaken, however, regarding the pass you would be given for making a foolish statement like "sports is killing our kids". That is preposterous and certainly not typical of most UPC pastors I know. If that has been typical of your experience, I am sorry!
As for the abortion issue, please revisit my posts and see that I deny that there is INTENT to kill in the hearts of these you are opposed to. They may occasionally have a miscarriage but they are NOT abortionists. Big difference in my book between an abortionist and a woman who has a miscarriage. Do you see my point and why I find it offensive.
While I am personally conservative, I do not use my personal stand as a basis for fellowship. I have dear friends in both camps (think Elder Epley and Old Paths and NLYP and Ronzo).
Either way, I pray that you settle your issues and come to a place of peace without destroying others in the process.
No hard feelings or offense here!:drawguns
Is there a difference in abortion and killing someone who is a baby?
No. Both are murder. I've seen both happen, and yes, it was intentional. Nothing was done to save them. The church was even told to leave them alone....they know the truth and they know where the church is.
If that's not intentional homicide, I don't know what is.
s'all good man.. you're reaching 40!! :bliss
Berk ... by your own admission I look younger than you ... try ROGAINE.
berkeley
02-22-2007, 10:17 PM
Berk ... by your own admission I look younger than you ... try ROGAINE.
yeah, that's the way people think around here!! lol
Nahum
02-22-2007, 10:20 PM
Is there a difference in abortion and killing someone who is a baby?
No. Both are murder. I've seen both happen, and yes, it was intentional. Nothing was done to save them. The church was even told to leave them alone....they know the truth and they know where the church is.
If that's not intentional homicide, I don't know what is.
Sister, I don't believe any minister would intentionally harm innocents. But there are things that some of us do that make the way too hard for them.
The end result is the same, a child that can not make it.
That was my only point - really.
There is an extreme element that makes it too hard.
philjones
02-22-2007, 10:22 PM
Is there a difference in abortion and killing someone who is a baby?
No. Both are murder. I've seen both happen, and yes, it was intentional. Nothing was done to save them. The church was even told to leave them alone....they know the truth and they know where the church is.
If that's not intentional homicide, I don't know what is.
Sis,
I apologize that you have witnessed this. I would be appalled by it as you are. However, I would not then characterize the group he belonged to by his actions.
I certainly cannot argue your experience and would not attempt to do so. i will, however, say that I have never had such an experience nor have I been close to anyone who has. My experience has been with pastors that have been willing to lay down their lives and neglect their families in order to see children be born and mature into productive sons and daughters of God.
That is my testimony and I believe it is much more common than yours.
Sister, I don't believe any minister would intentionally harm innocents. But there are things that some of us do that make the way too hard for them.
The end result is the same, a child that can not make it.
That was my only point - really.
There is an extreme element that makes it too hard.
Under the guise of GOD NEVER CHANGES ....
HeavenlyOne
02-22-2007, 10:42 PM
Sister, I don't believe any minister would intentionally harm innocents. But there are things that some of us do that make the way too hard for them.
The end result is the same, a child that can not make it.
That was my only point - really.
There is an extreme element that makes it too hard.
I would agree with you had it not happened in the church I was raised in......and had it happen to me in that same church. I don't believe it's common. In fact, the intentional side of it is rare, IMO. People are written off as troublemakers or rebellious.
My first pastor, who's church I attended from the age of 5 to 18, told a friend of mine that I would never amount to anything, be on welfare all my life, have kids by different fathers, and live on the street. I was 25 with two children when he told her that. His daughter-in-law told me that I'd never make it on my own, and she gave me three months when I moved away from home. Well, it's been 12 years and I've never been back.
My own mother, who was a product of this church, thought I was going to be in prison by the time I was 18 and has just in the past 4-5 years realized that kind of person I really am. She used to tell me that I was undeserving of my own children because of the rotten person I was....the person she thought I was anyway.
There were very few people in that church, a place I grew up in, people I considered to be family, who ever had a good word to say about me. I was lied about, talked about, punished for things I didn't do, and persecuted. I watched my brother excel, even going to Bible college, and everyone talked well about him....until the pastor found him watching the Desert Storm footage on TV once. He was sat down from teaching Sunday School. He hasn't been back to church since...and that was almost 20 years ago.
I wish I'd never been raised in the church. I'd have a completely different opinion of it.
Sorry for rambling, but this isn't just talk or hearsay. I lived it.
HeavenlyOne
02-22-2007, 10:44 PM
Sis,
I apologize that you have witnessed this. I would be appalled by it as you are. However, I would not then characterize the group he belonged to by his actions.
I certainly cannot argue your experience and would not attempt to do so. i will, however, say that I have never had such an experience nor have I been close to anyone who has. My experience has been with pastors that have been willing to lay down their lives and neglect their families in order to see children be born and mature into productive sons and daughters of God.
That is my testimony and I believe it is much more common than yours.
Bro, I've had two wonderful pastors since my bad experience and a couple others that were good also. I don't believe my experience is seen by most, and for that I'm thankful. I'd hate for anyone to go through life like I do because of what I was raised in.
philjones
02-23-2007, 06:21 AM
Bro, I've had two wonderful pastors since my bad experience and a couple others that were good also. I don't believe my experience is seen by most, and for that I'm thankful. I'd hate for anyone to go through life like I do because of what I was raised in.
Heavenly One,
I certainly understand your desire for others to be spared the wounds and subsequent scarring that you have endured and still endure at some level. I am going to pray specifically for God to not only continue to bless you in your present and coming days, but also to make you whole (beyond healing) concerning your past. While it is a painful thing to have an open wound, the resulting scar tissue can be even more devastating and debilitating spiritually.
Before I came back to God, I was the world's worst scab picker... I refused to let the wound heal. The result was that i bled on everyone I came in contact with. It was almost a reflex action for me.
Then, when I came back to God I quit picking the scab, quit bleeding all the time and accepted that I was healed. I thought all was well until God revealed something very specific, simple and powerful to me. I was rejoicing in the fact I wasn't bleeding any more and God was disgusted because I had become the one who can't wait to show off his scars. God told me point blank that the bleeding I had done was the result of PRIDE and that I had now become as proud of my scar as I was of my wound.
At that point He told me that if I desired he would make me WHOLE which would be a giant step toward HOLINESS in my life. He wanted to do some spiritual dermabrasion and eliminate EVEN THE SCARS! The prescription was forgiveness -- not to forgive those who from my perspective had wounded me, but rather to seek their forgiveness for the spirit of bitterness and judgement I had carried for 18+ years against them.
Today, some of the men that I had so despised are now my mentors and confidants in my walk with God!
HE is so amazing and so able to bring Wholeness that goes beyond the initial binding of the broken heart!
Have a blessed day!
HeavenlyOne
02-23-2007, 01:22 PM
Phil, thanks for being such a friend to me. You have always been nothing but friendly to me, and for that, I appreciate you. Your kind words touch me.
Nahum
05-07-2007, 07:02 PM
I am so sick and tired of the bonds of legalism that a small minority within our movement want to place us in. This minority is affecting many things within the Apostolic culture. There is a dawning realization in me that rules can never replace relationship. Real morality is placed deep within the heart of a man who is in love with Jesus. No rule can ever take the place of that intimacy.
The spirit of abortion is in hundreds of legalistic position papers we have been formulating for decades. It is found in the heavy-handedness of supposed elders, who rebuke the cognitive process in the young as rebellious, and by default, wicked. It is found in every sermon that focuses on works of man more than the Work of God's grace.
The spirit of abortion is alive and well in many churches today. We rely on persona and tradition more than a sovereign move of the Holy Ghost. There are far too few prayer meetings nowadays. Instead, we run after every self-proclaimed Apostolic guru that lands on a conference stage.
I'm tired of politics. I'm tired of self-promotion. I'm tired of a complete lack of integrity in high levels of leadership.
This spirit is killing real revival.
bump
Nahum
05-27-2007, 05:13 PM
I am so sick and tired of the bonds of legalism that a small minority within our movement want to place us in. This minority is affecting many things within the Apostolic culture. There is a dawning realization in me that rules can never replace relationship. Real morality is placed deep within the heart of a man who is in love with Jesus. No rule can ever take the place of that intimacy.
The spirit of abortion is in hundreds of legalistic position papers we have been formulating for decades. It is found in the heavy-handedness of supposed elders, who rebuke the cognitive process in the young as rebellious, and by default, wicked. It is found in every sermon that focuses on works of man more than the Work of God's grace.
The spirit of abortion is alive and well in many churches today. We rely on persona and tradition more than a sovereign move of the Holy Ghost. There are far too few prayer meetings nowadays. Instead, we run after every self-proclaimed Apostolic guru that lands on a conference stage.
I'm tired of politics. I'm tired of self-promotion. I'm tired of a complete lack of integrity in high levels of leadership.
This spirit is killing real revival.
I was in a meeting with a well-respected minister from the UPCI last week where he stated something that floored me. He said he was for the resolution (six) but would not vote for it, for fear of public reprisal. He stated that unity was more important than progress OR evangelism.
This is ludicrous! Not being able to vote one's conscience for fear of reprisal?
I understand the concept of presenting a united front, but this fear is stifling us.
Rhoni
05-27-2007, 05:20 PM
I was in a meeting with a well-respected minister from the UPCI last week where he stated something that floored me. He said he was for the resolution (six) but would not vote for it, for fear of public reprisal. He stated that unity was more important than progress OR evangelism.
This is ludicrous! Not being able to vote one's conscience for fear of reprisal?
I understand the concept of presenting a united front, but this fear is stifling us.
:highfive Absolutely...and has for years!
Blessings, Rhoni
I am so sick and tired of the bonds of legalism that a small minority within our movement want to place us in. This minority is affecting many things within the Apostolic culture. There is a dawning realization in me that rules can never replace relationship. Real morality is placed deep within the heart of a man who is in love with Jesus. No rule can ever take the place of that intimacy.
The spirit of abortion is in hundreds of legalistic position papers we have been formulating for decades. It is found in the heavy-handedness of supposed elders, who rebuke the cognitive process in the young as rebellious, and by default, wicked. It is found in every sermon that focuses on works of man more than the Work of God's grace.
The spirit of abortion is alive and well in many churches today. We rely on persona and tradition more than a sovereign move of the Holy Ghost. There are far too few prayer meetings nowadays. Instead, we run after every self-proclaimed Apostolic guru that lands on a conference stage.
I'm tired of politics. I'm tired of self-promotion. I'm tired of a complete lack of integrity in high levels of leadership.
This spirit is killing real revival.
I agree with you. Just to tired to ann anymore to your comments.
Nathan Eckstadt
I am so sick and tired of the bonds of legalism that a small minority within our movement want to place us in. This minority is affecting many things within the Apostolic culture. There is a dawning realization in me that rules can never replace relationship. Real morality is placed deep within the heart of a man who is in love with Jesus. No rule can ever take the place of that intimacy.
The spirit of abortion is in hundreds of legalistic position papers we have been formulating for decades. It is found in the heavy-handedness of supposed elders, who rebuke the cognitive process in the young as rebellious, and by default, wicked. It is found in every sermon that focuses on works of man more than the Work of God's grace.
The spirit of abortion is alive and well in many churches today. We rely on persona and tradition more than a sovereign move of the Holy Ghost. There are far too few prayer meetings nowadays. Instead, we run after every self-proclaimed Apostolic guru that lands on a conference stage.
I'm tired of politics. I'm tired of self-promotion. I'm tired of a complete lack of integrity in high levels of leadership.
This spirit is killing real revival.
This is the only post I've read in this thread. I'm sure that many will say that abortion by legalism is not possible because what is really happening is that whiny people who are hurt look for excuses to leave. That's pretty much what I hear around here when real problems are brought to the forefront.
Nahum
05-27-2007, 10:15 PM
This is the only post I've read in this thread. I'm sure that many will say that abortion by legalism is not possible because what is really happening is that whiny people who are hurt look for excuses to leave. That's pretty much what I hear around here when real problems are brought to the forefront.
Perhaps that is what they will say, but some truths batter down every wall of falsehood placed in their way.
The most difficult thing I had to do was to separate the insanity of men from the character of God. I take consolation that every preacher who did me wrong is pushing up daisies. I take consolation in the fact the God I know is a far cry from the God they portrayed. I learned early and quickly that those people did not represent the love of Christ. If I couldn't make that separation, I would have fulfilled their words and be in a grave myself.
I would agree with you had it not happened in the church I was raised in......and had it happen to me in that same church. I don't believe it's common. In fact, the intentional side of it is rare, IMO. People are written off as troublemakers or rebellious.
My first pastor, who's church I attended from the age of 5 to 18, told a friend of mine that I would never amount to anything, be on welfare all my life, have kids by different fathers, and live on the street. I was 25 with two children when he told her that. His daughter-in-law told me that I'd never make it on my own, and she gave me three months when I moved away from home. Well, it's been 12 years and I've never been back.
My own mother, who was a product of this church, thought I was going to be in prison by the time I was 18 and has just in the past 4-5 years realized that kind of person I really am. She used to tell me that I was undeserving of my own children because of the rotten person I was....the person she thought I was anyway.
There were very few people in that church, a place I grew up in, people I considered to be family, who ever had a good word to say about me. I was lied about, talked about, punished for things I didn't do, and persecuted. I watched my brother excel, even going to Bible college, and everyone talked well about him....until the pastor found him watching the Desert Storm footage on TV once. He was sat down from teaching Sunday School. He hasn't been back to church since...and that was almost 20 years ago.
I wish I'd never been raised in the church. I'd have a completely different opinion of it.
Sorry for rambling, but this isn't just talk or hearsay. I lived it.
Perhaps that is what they will say, but some truths batter down every wall of falsehood placed in their way.
That is true. I just get tired of the "whiner and hurt people" mantra everytime a real problem is brought up.
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