Timing of the crucifixion etc

[Esaias]

Scenario 1: The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Therefore the lambs had already been killed by the priests earlier that day, Jesus was therefore crucified on 15 Abib (a sabbath).

Scenario 2: The Last Supper was either not a Passover meal or was being kept according to a sectarian calendar not used by the priests. Jesus was crucified at about the same time the lambs were being offered, on 14 Abib, day before the sabbath of 15 Abib.

Which is correct, and why? Or is there a third alternative?

Please note, this is NOT about "Wed, Thurs, or Fri crucifixion" debates.

[hometown guy]

Scenario 1: The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Therefore the lambs had already been killed by the priests earlier that day, Jesus was therefore crucified on 15 Abib (a sabbath).

Scenario 2: The Last Supper was either not a Passover meal or was being kept according to a sectarian calendar not used by the priests. Jesus was crucified at about the same time the lambs were being offered, on 14 Abib, day before the sabbath of 15 Abib.

Which is correct, and why? Or is there a third alternative?

Please note, this is NOT about "Wed, Thurs, or Fri crucifixion" debates.

Scenario 2: because it fulfillment of a type and shadow. Study it out and you will see even when peter preached the new birth message or I can say the plan of salvation it was a perfect fulfillment of mosses on the mountain getting the 10 commandments which was the plan of salvation for them at that point.

[Esaias]

Scenario 2: because it fulfillment of a type and shadow. Study it out and you will see even when peter preached the new birth message or I can say the plan of salvation it was a perfect fulfillment of mosses on the mountain getting the 10 commandments which was the plan of salvation for them at that point.

I have always understood scenario 2 to be correct. But I want it to be correct because that is how it went down, NOT because it fits my Christian typology. Does that make sense? I'd like to hear from anyone who can lay out their understanding without reverse engineering it from a need to have certain typologies fulfilled. Not saying that is what you are doing, I'm just saying I'd like to stick to the facts of what happened and derive any typology fulfillments from those facts, rather than the other way around. Hope that made sense.

[good samaritan]

Jesus must have been crucified after Passover during the feast of unleavened bread. It would seem that it would have been in the middle of the feast of unleavened bread. I understand that the day following the feast days of unleavened bread that a sheaf was to be waved to God (firstfruits). It seems that would coincide with the accession of Christ and would mark the fifty day countdown to Pentecost. I think it would be in the middle of the week of Passover week (unleavened bread).

[Esaias]

Interesting, I have never heard that one.

[good samaritan]

Check out Leviticus 23:9-16

[Esaias]

Check out Leviticus 23:9-16

I've always understood the waving of the sheaf corresponded with His resurrection (and first ascension that same day). He rose the day after the sabbath which occurred the day after the crucifixion. Thus He would have been crucified on 14 Abib, was in the tomb 15 Abib (first day of unleavened bread, a sabbath), then rose 16 Abib (day after the sabbath, when the sheaf of the firstfruits was presented).

[jediwill83]

Scenario 1: The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Therefore the lambs had already been killed by the priests earlier that day, Jesus was therefore crucified on 15 Abib (a sabbath).

Scenario 2: The Last Supper was either not a Passover meal or was being kept according to a sectarian calendar not used by the priests. Jesus was crucified at about the same time the lambs were being offered, on 14 Abib, day before the sabbath of 15 Abib.

Which is correct, and why? Or is there a third alternative?

Please note, this is NOT about "Wed, Thurs, or Fri crucifixion" debates.


Interesting thread...really looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

[Esaias]

Interesting thread...really looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

A few facts for consideration:

The Sadducees and the Pharisees differed on their interpretation of Lev 23:10-15. The Pharisees maintained that the Passover lamb was offered on 14 Abib, the 15 Abib was the first day of unleavened bread (a sabbath) and the day after that sabbath was the waving of the firstfruits (on the 16th of Abib). Pentecost was 50 days later. Whatever day of the week the 16th of Abib fell on, Pentecost would fall on that same day of the week 7 weeks later.

The Sadducees maintained the lambs were offered on the 14th, the 15th was a sabbath, but the firstfruit sheaf was waved on the day after the WEEKLY SABBATH that fell during the feast of unleavened bread. Thus it would always be waved on a sunday, and Pentecost 50 days later would always be on a sunday as well.

Many priests were aligned with the Sadducees (but many others weren't). In any event, the Pharisees controlled much of the official interpretation of torah, so the actual practice at the temple was in accordance with Pharisee understanding not the Sadducee understanding. In other words, the actual first century practice was to offer the lambs on 14 Abib, 15 Abib was a sabbath, and 16 Abib was the waving of the firstfruits, and Pentecost was 50 days later.

Now, the method or schedule was as follows: During the daytime portion of 14 Abib, from about noon to late afternoon, the lambs were killed at the temple. The offeror would take the dead lamb home and roast it. That night (the beginning of 15 Abib, a sabbath) the family or household would eat it and have prayer, singing, and recounting the Exodus story. Then after the sabbath of 15 Abib, a sheaf of thefirstfruits would be brought to the temple to be waved, on the 16th of Abib.

If the Lord died about the same time as the passover lambs were being killed in the temple, then the Last Supper could not have been a standard Passover meal. The lamb they would have used would have been killed at the temple on the 13th of Abib, something the priests would not do. So it could not have been a Passover meal.

On the other hand, if it WAS a Passover meal, then the last supper took place at night on a sabbath, but this seems contrary to Judas going out that night and making a financial transaction with the leaders to betray Jesus. Also John 13:29 indicates the disciples did not think it was a sabbath. So clearly that event was not on 15 Abib, which means the last supper was not a Passover supper.

But in turn that raises the question about Luke 22:8-15. Which implies it WAS a Passover meal. Although, the text doesn't REQUIRE it to be. They were getting ready, and had a fellowship meal on 13 Abib in anticipation of a Passover meal the next evening. There is precedent for this in rabbinic custom, where a rabbi and his students share a special meal at the students' "graduation" if you will the day prior to a major feast.

[good samaritan]

Did the passover come before the first day of the feast of unleavened bread? For instance: If the passover was on the 14th day of Abib then the feast of unleavened bread would begin on the 15th and go to the 21st. The sheave offering of the firstfruits was to be waved on the first of the week following the feast of unleavened bread (22nd???). The 22nd would the sheave wave symbolic of the first ascension (that was what I was meaning originally).

[good samaritan]

Also something I read was that there was a second passover opportunity given for those who where unclean for the first passover. The second passover was second month on the 14th day (Numbers 9:10-11)

[Esaias]

Also something I read was that there was a second passover opportunity given for those who where unclean for the first passover. The second passover was second month on the 14th day (Numbers 9:10-11)

Yes that is correct, however I don't think that ties in with the crucifixion.

[good samaritan]

No I am not implying anything by that. I just found it interesting. Although Christ did fulfill all the law and prophets. The unclean could not attend the first passover (Hebrews in Egypt), The Lord proclaimed a second passover for the unclean (Gentiles through Calvary).

[Esaias]

Did the passover come before the first day of the feast of unleavened bread? For instance: If the passover was on the 14th day of Abib then the feast of unleavened bread would begin on the 15th and go to the 21st. The sheave offering of the firstfruits was to be waved on the first of the week following the feast of unleavened bread (22nd???). The 22nd would the sheave wave symbolic of the first ascension (that was what I was meaning originally).

Yes, the whole thing was 8 days: the 14th of Abib when the passiver was killed, then the 15-21 (7 days) was the Feast of Unleavened Bread. 14 Abib was called "the Passover". However the whole thing was sometimes called "Passover". And sometimes the whole thing was called "Unleavened Bread". Which can make things a bit confusing.

The idea the sheaf was waved on the first of the week (morrow after the WEEKLY sabbath) is the Sadducee view (held by Karaites today, if I am not mistaken). However that is not actually how the temple operated, the priests deferred to the Pharisee view (wave the sheaf on the 16th, the day after the (first) sabbath of unleavened bread).

I do believe the Sadducees were wrong on this point, one reason of which is that every several years the waving of the first fruit would fall OUTSIDE the feast of unleavened bread. If 14 Abib fell on the 7th day of the week, the next day would be the first day of unleavened bread as well as the first day of the week. The next sabbath would be not only the next weekly sabbath, but the last day of unleavened bread (also a sabbath). The sheaf would then be waved on the 22nd of Abib, which is OUTSIDE the weeklong feast. Which I do not think would be correct.

Joshua 5:10-11 KJV
And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho. [11] And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.

This seems to prove the waving of the sheaf of firstfruits occurred on 16 Abib.

[Esaias]

Joshua 5:10-11 KJV
And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho. [11] And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.

This seems to prove the waving of the sheaf of firstfruits occurred on 16 Abib.

I want to elaborate on this a bit to try and make it clear. God forbad them to eat the produce of the land UNTIL the waving of the sheaf of firstfruits (Lev 23:14). When they came into the land, they kept Passover. When? "On the 14th day of the month at even." This means they KEPT THE SERVICE (eating the Passover, see Deut 16:7-8) on the 14th day "at even". Every day has two evenings, the first evening which starts the day, and the next evening which both ends the day and starts the next day.

For example:

Leviticus 23:27-28,32 KJV
Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord . [28] And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God. [32] It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Atonement was the 10th day of the seventh month. But it starts "on the ninth day at even", that is, at the end of the 9th day which begins the 10th day. So, going back to Joshua 5 above, they kept the Passover service at the END of the 14th day, which is the start of the 15th of Abib. Then they ate fruit of the land "on the morrow (morning) AFTER THE PASSOVER." This has to mean the morning after the 15th (not the morning OF, but the morning AFTER). Which means they ate it on the 16th of Abib. It couldn't have been eaten on the morning of the 15th, because that morning is a sabbath, and the sheaf had to be waved on the morning AFTER the sabbath (Lev 23:11).

This means they ate fruit of the land on the 16th of Abib, so they waved the sheaf on the 16th of Abib, the morning AFTER the sabbath of 15 Abib, the first day of unleavened bread.

[Esaias]

Now having said all this, I am open to the idea that Jesus ate an actual Passover meal, BUT one would need to show that it was even possible to have a lamb killed at the temple by a priest for Passover at the BEGINNING of 14 Abib IN THE EVENING around or after sunset. Also one would need to show why Jesus is our Passover yet He did not actually die at the correct time. Either the temple practice was in ERROR, in which case Jesus died as our Passover at the WRONG time while being able to eat the Passover at the right time... or vice versa: He ate a Passover at the WRONG time but died at the right time.

Alternatively, one might say the Passover had to be killed at anytime on the 14th day of the first month, so He could both eat a correct Passover with the disciples and die as a correct Passover, since both the last supper and His death occurred on the same Biblical day.

[good samaritan]

If the disciples prepared the upper room the 14th at even it would have begun the 15th which Judas snuck out after dinner to betray the Lord. The following day Jesus was crucified before evening still the 15th. The wave offering on the 16th representing the resurrection would not have given 3 days though. The first day of the week would had to be around the 18th.

[Esaias]

If the disciples prepared the upper room the 14th at even it would have begun the 15th which Judas snuck out after dinner to betray the Lord. The following day Jesus was crucified before evening still the 15th. The wave offering on the 16th representing the resurrection would not have given 3 days though. The first day of the week would had to be around the 18th.

I said this really wasn't about Wed Thurs or Fri crucifixion debates, but I guess they are intrinsic to the issue?

Does anyone know the answer to the following:

1. Would the priests have killed someone's paschal lamb on the FIRST evening of the 14th, when that day began? Or would such a thing not be a possibility?

2. Would they have crucified Jesus during the 15th, a sabbath?

3. Is there anything in the text that absolutely REQUIRES or demands the Last Supper be an actual formal Passover meal with lamb?

[Esaias]

John 13:1-4 KJV
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. [2] And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son , to betray him; [3] Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; [4] He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

John 13:27-30 KJV
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. [28] Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. [29] For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. [30] He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

These passages seem conclusive, that the Last Supper was NOT the Passover meal.

See also:

John 18:28 KJV
Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

Again, the lambs had not yet been killed, certainly the passover meal had not yet been eaten.

Matthew 27:59-62 KJV
And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, [60] And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. [61] And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre. [62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

Again, Jesus died on the Preparation day (when the lambs were killed and then later eaten), thus the Last Supper was not a Passover meal.

[Esaias]

Again, Jesus died on the Preparation day (when the lambs were killed and then later eaten), thus the Last Supper was not a Passover meal.

What is interesting is that Jesus apparently transformed the Passover meal INTO the Lord's Supper:

1 Corinthians 11:23-27 KJV
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: [24] And when he had given thanks, he brake it , and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. [25] After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it , in remembrance of me. [26] For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. [27] Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

The Lord's Supper is a commemorative meal in memory of Christ's death by which we enter the new covenant and become one Body. The fact that Christ is Himself our paschal lamb (1 Cor 5:7) seals it: the Lord's Supper is the new covenant memorial Passover meal.

Yet this supper was established the night BEFORE the (old covenant memorial) Passover meal was eaten. The apparent difficulty is resolved when looking at the original Passover.

Exodus 12:1,3,6-7 KJV
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, [3] Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: [6] And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. [7] And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

The lamb was killed, cooked, and eaten at the beginning of the 14th day of Abib. Now notice:

Numbers 33:3 KJV
And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.

Clearly they ate the first Passover during the night portion of the 14th of Abib. The rest of the 14th they assembled to the place of Rameses, then on the morning after the Passover (the morning AFTER the 14th, thus the early morning of the 15th) they left Rameses, officially "exiting" Egypt.

Later practice however had them kill the lamb during the DAY portion of the 14th and cook it, then eat the meal that night, which would actually be the beginning of the 15th of Abib.

The original Egyptian Passover was one night EARLIER than later Passover meals. The original New Covenant Passover meal (the Last Supper) was one night EARLIER than the contemporary old covenant Passover meals.

[Esaias]

So then when Jesus spoke about "with desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you" He may likely have been using a double entendre, hinting about the NEW Passover meal that they were in fact about to eat. Interestingly, there is no record of Jesus Himself eating the bread or drinking from the cup. Yet He says He will eat the Passover with His disciples once it was fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

[Esaias]

The one thing I can't seem to figure out is this: either Jesus ate the Passover at the right time and died at the wrong time, OR He ate the Passover at the wrong time but died at the right time, OR the Last Supper was not an old covenant Passover meal.

But even if that last supposition (!) be correct, it still raises the question: why wasn't everybody eating the Passover at the beginning/night portion of the 14th day of the first minth, as appears to be the Biblically commanded manner? And why didn't He die at that time instead of in the afternoon?

[Esaias]

The one thing I can't seem to figure out is this: either Jesus ate the Passover at the right time and died at the wrong time, OR He ate the Passover at the wrong time but died at the right time, OR the Last Supper was not an old covenant Passover meal.

But even if that last supposition (!) be correct, it still raises the question: why wasn't everybody eating the Passover at the beginning/night portion of the 14th day of the first minth, as appears to be the Biblically commanded manner? And why didn't He die at that time instead of in the afternoon?

Anyone?

[votivesoul]

The one thing I can't seem to figure out is this: either Jesus ate the Passover at the right time and died at the wrong time, OR He ate the Passover at the wrong time but died at the right time, OR the Last Supper was not an old covenant Passover meal.

But even if that last supposition (!) be correct, it still raises the question: why wasn't everybody eating the Passover at the beginning/night portion of the 14th day of the first minth, as appears to be the Biblically commanded manner? And why didn't He die at that time instead of in the afternoon?

I've read accounts indicating that the population of Jerusalem swelled to close to a million people during Passover. Of that number, even if only half or a third of that, how many constituted a family, bringing a lamb for sacrifice?

If, let's say, only 100,000 extra people made the trip to Jerusalem, and the average family size was 10, that's 10,000 lambs to slay. Even a thousand priests working around the clock, would never be able to slay that many lambs in an afternoon. It had to have taken several days.

So, maybe Jesus was the first "lamb" slain, or maybe He was the last "lamb" that was slain, or maybe somewhere in the middle, but the point is, His death could have fallen anywhere from the 14-15, and it wouldn't necessarily matter at all.

[Esaias]

I've read accounts indicating that the population of Jerusalem swelled to close to a million people during Passover. Of that number, even if only half or a third of that, how many constituted a family, bringing a lamb for sacrifice?

If, let's say, only 100,000 extra people made the trip to Jerusalem, and the average family size was 10, that's 10,000 lambs to slay. Even a thousand priests working around the clock, would never be able to slay that many lambs in an afternoon. It had to have taken several days.

So, maybe Jesus was the first "lamb" slain, or maybe He was the last "lamb" that was slain, or maybe somewhere in the middle, but the point is, His death could have fallen anywhere from the 14-15, and it wouldn't necessarily matter at all.

All historical documentation from the contemporary period that I am familiar with agree that the lambs were all slaughtered between about noon and I think it was either 3pm or 5pm on the afternoon of the 14th of Abib. Very busy, but apparently it was done.