Ghost are they real?

[Esther]

Recently I was asked if ghosts are real.

The only scripture I could think of was when Peter was knocking on the door and they said it was Peter's ghost.

Anyone familiar with this subject?

[diakonos]

Seen them all the time when I was a child. Living in Houston there was a lot of paranormal activity in the house.

So, I don’t believe what I have seen because there is not a biblical explanation for it.

[n david]

I don't believe in any Ghost but the Holy Ghost! And the Holy Ghost is REAL!

[Michael The Disciple]

Demons are real. Ghost as in a persons spirit living on after their death are not real.

[Esther]

Demons are real. Ghost as in a persons spirit living on after their death are not real.

Are you saying ghost you see are demons?

[Esther]

KJV says
And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.
Acts 12:15 KJV

[Esaias]

KJV says
And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.
Acts 12:15 KJV

1. They weren't saying it was his GHOST as in he was dead and showed back up in spirit. He was in prison and they were praying for him. Apparently they either thought his spirit had appeared while he was in prison, or (if you buy the guardian angel theory) that his guardian angel had shown up.

2. Even if they thought it was his ghost that doesn't mean they were correct in their idea.

[Evang.Benincasa]

How about Casper the friendly ghost?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Demons are real. Ghost as in a persons spirit living on after their death are not real.

Can ghosts procreate if they materialize? :dunno

[Evang.Benincasa]

I don't believe in any Ghost but the Holy Ghost! And the Holy Ghost is REAL!


Me too!!! I ain't skeered!

[Tithesmeister]

Can ghosts procreate if they materialize? :dunno

Read 1 Samuel 28

What meaneth this?

[Esaias]

Read 1 Samuel 28

What meaneth this?

It means stay away from witches and mediums.

[Tithesmeister]

It means stay away from witches and mediums.

Yes. I get that part. But was it Samuel?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Read 1 Samuel 28

What meaneth this?

Samuel comes up from the dead. Read it and it tells you who it was. The witch didn't expect it to be Samuel, and therefore she freaks out. Therefore she thoughts she was going to get killed for doing so. Samuel was in a sleep state, because he says he was disquieted, as to be awoke.

[Tithesmeister]

Samuel comes up from the dead. Read it and it tells you who it was. The witch didn't expect it to be Samuel, and therefore she freaks out. Therefore she thoughts she was going to get killed for doing so. Samuel was in a sleep state, because he says he was disquieted, as to be awoke.

I asked a preacher about this one time. He said that the witch contacted the familiar spirit of Samuel. I don’t see it that way. It’s seems clear to me that it was Samuel.

[Esther]

I have seen many photos of ghost. What would you say they are? Demons?

[Esaias]

Yes. I get that part. But was it Samuel?

No.

Saul saw nothing, the witch was in a trance and acting as the MEDIUM (go between). She thought it was Samuel's ghost or whatever. She, being a medium, was channeling what she believed was Saul. Saul neither heard or saw anything except the witch, exactly like when you visit a medium, channeler, necromancer, psychic, whatever.

Otherwise, if it REALLY WAS SAMUEL, then we got big time major contradictions with the REST OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE.

A witch can raise the dead? Seriously?

Nope, sorry, not happening.

[Esaias]

I have seen many photos of ghost. What would you say they are? Demons?

I've seen videos of radioactive dinosaurs attacking Tokyo and wrestling with giant 100ft tall gorillas, fighting flying giant turtles that shoot laserbeams, running around with two headed dragons, and fighting off the Japanese army.

:heeheehee

[Tithesmeister]

I have seen many photos of ghost. What would you say they are? Demons?

I’m no authority. But if there are demons, and we believe in them, shouldn’t there be spirits that aren’t demons. Was Samuel’s spirit a demon?

What about Casper?

[Evang.Benincasa]

No.

Saul saw nothing, the witch was in a trance and acting as the MEDIUM (go between). She thought it was Samuel's ghost or whatever. She, being a medium, was channeling what she believed was Saul. Saul neither heard or saw anything except the witch, exactly like when you visit a medium, channeler, necromancer, psychic, whatever.

Otherwise, if it REALLY WAS SAMUEL, then we got big time major contradictions with the REST OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE.

A witch can raise the dead? Seriously?

Nope, sorry, not happening.

No contradiction, they were all sleeping, Samuel was awakened prematurely. Hence he asking "why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?" The witch of Endor had no power, and bringing people up from the dead was possible by soothsayers. But Saul enforces the law on one day, and then breaks it on another day. Samuel was allowed to speak judgement on the law breaker king. God was no longer talking to Saul, not by any means. But the icing on the cake was going to the witch and having Samuel tell Saul what Saul already knew.

[Esaias]

No.

Saul saw nothing, the witch was in a trance and acting as the MEDIUM (go between). She thought it was Samuel's ghost or whatever. She, being a medium, was channeling what she believed was Saul. Saul neither heard or saw anything except the witch, exactly like when you visit a medium, channeler, necromancer, psychic, whatever.

Otherwise, if it REALLY WAS SAMUEL, then we got big time major contradictions with the REST OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE.

A witch can raise the dead? Seriously?

Nope, sorry, not happening.

1 Samuel 28:11-14 KJV
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. [12] And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. [13] And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. [14] And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

1. She knew at the beginning she was supposed to bring up Samuel.

2. SHE saw him. Saul couldn't even tell anything was going on, relying entirely on the witch's statements about what SHE was seeing.

3. Saul "perceived it was Samuel" because the woman described what SHE was seeing. That is, Saul perceived she was describing Samuel correctly, therefore he concluded it really was Samuel she had brought up from among the dead.

1 Samuel 28:7-8 KJV
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. [8] And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

The woman did not raise Saul from the dead, she was a medium, with a "familiar spirit", a channeler. The whole episode was "by (the) familiar spirit".

He enquired of the LORD by praying, hoping for a dream or vision, by lots cast by the priest, by prophets, but to no avail. He couldn't get answers from a prophet with the Spirit of God, so he found a witch with a familiar spirit (demon).

[Tithesmeister]

No.

Saul saw nothing, the witch was in a trance and acting as the MEDIUM (go between). She thought it was Samuel's ghost or whatever. She, being a medium, was channeling what she believed was Saul. Saul neither heard or saw anything except the witch, exactly like when you visit a medium, channeler, necromancer, psychic, whatever.

Otherwise, if it REALLY WAS SAMUEL, then we got big time major contradictions with the REST OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE.

A witch can raise the dead? Seriously?

Nope, sorry, not happening.

That’s why I asked. I don’t believe the witch should have power over Samuel. But it does seem to me that it was his spirit that was awakened. And he was not too happy about that.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I’m no authority. But if there are demons, and we believe in them, shouldn’t there be spirits that aren’t demons. Was Samuel’s spirit a demon?

What about Casper?

Casper is a Russian operative who was in Detrich Maryland last month. This was all prior to his visit to the cruise ships down in Miami. Samuel was Samuel .

[Evang.Benincasa]

That’s why I asked. I don’t believe the witch should have power over Samuel. But it does seem to me that it was his spirit that was awakened. And he was not too happy about that.

That's the take away just from a simple read of the chapter. Look at how many times the writer of Samuel calls the spirit Samuel.

[Evang.Benincasa]

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

These are the words of the writer of 1st Samuel, telling us the readers who Saul was speaking to.

[Esaias]

No contradiction, they were all sleeping, Samuel was awakened prematurely. Hence he asking "why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?" The witch of Endor had no power, and bringing people up from the dead was possible by soothsayers. But Saul enforces the law on one day, and then breaks it on another day. Samuel was allowed to speak judgement on the law breaker king. God was no longer talking to Saul, not by any means. But the icing on the cake was going to the witch and having Samuel tell Saul what Saul already knew.

1 Kings 22:19-23 KJV
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord : I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. [20] And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. [21] And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord , and said, I will persuade him. [22] And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him , and prevail also: go forth, and do so. [23] Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Those prophets thought the Holy Ghost was speaking:

1 Kings 22:11-12 KJV
And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron: and he said, Thus saith the Lord , With these shalt thou push the Syrians, until thou have consumed them. [12] And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramoth-gilead, and prosper: for the Lord shall deliver it into the king's hand.

But they were wrong.

There is no way a woman with a demon is going to raise the dead. Saul sought the Lord through the Divinely appointed means, God ignores him. Saul seeks a witch with a demon and God answers him? Beyond plausibility. It creates too many problems with the rest of Scripture.

He had degraded to seeking advice from demons, so the Lord gives him what deserves. The demon plays Samuel and tells Saul it's too late he's doomed. This causes Saul to go into depression. Think Denethor after staring into his palantir. This is undoubtedly the very mechanism by which God brought about Saul's downfall. This is what happens when you seek after those with familiar spirits: God will make sure you fail, give you an overpowering influence to CAUSE you to be destroyed (echoes of "strong delusion" here).

"Oh, but the witch spoke correctly!" Well, so did Balaam's donkey and High Priest Caiaphas. The woman with the Pythonic spirit spoke correctly concerning Paul and company.

But no demon can raise the dead.

Otherwise, mediums and witches can deliver as advertised, and God is just one deity among a competing pantheon of gods and powers.

I see no reason to believe the witch literally raised Samuel from the dead.

[Evang.Benincasa]

1 Kings 22:19-23 KJV
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord : I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. [20] And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. [21] And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord , and said, I will persuade him. [22] And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him , and prevail also: go forth, and do so. [23] Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Those prophets thought the Holy Ghost was speaking:

1 Kings 22:11-12 KJV
And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron: and he said, Thus saith the Lord , With these shalt thou push the Syrians, until thou have consumed them. [12] And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramoth-gilead, and prosper: for the Lord shall deliver it into the king's hand.

But they were wrong.

There is no way a woman with a demon is going to raise the dead. Saul sought the Lord through the Divinely appointed means, God ignores him. Saul seeks a witch with a demon and God answers him? Beyond plausibility. It creates too many problems with the rest of Scripture.

He had degraded to seeking advice from demons, so the Lord gives him what deserves. The demon plays Samuel and tells Saul it's too late he's doomed. This causes Saul to go into depression. Think Denethor after staring into his palantir. This is undoubtedly the very mechanism by which God brought about Saul's downfall. This is what happens when you seek after those with familiar spirits: God will make sure you fail, give you an overpowering influence to CAUSE you to be destroyed (echoes of "strong delusion" here).

"Oh, but the witch spoke correctly!" Well, so did Balaam's donkey and High Priest Caiaphas. The woman with the Pythonic spirit spoke correctly concerning Paul and company.

But no demon can raise the dead.

Otherwise, mediums and witches can deliver as advertised, and God is just one deity among a competing pantheon of gods and powers.

I see no reason to believe the witch literally raised Samuel from the dead.

My brother, the writer of 1st Samuel tells us who was holding court with the king. There is no reason to doubt what the writer is telling us.

[Esaias]

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

These are the words of the writer of 1st Samuel, telling us the readers who Saul was speaking to.

But only after Samuel's identity is affirmed by the witch. Saul couldn't see or hear anything. Everything is going through the medium. It specifically says "by the familiar spirit". She's channeling.

If it really is Samuel, then a demonised witch can raise the dead and wring forth genuine prophecy on demand even after God has refused to speak???? That sounds crazy, bro.

[Esaias]

My brother, the writer of 1st Samuel tells us who was holding court with the king. There is no reason to doubt what the writer is telling us.

I do not doubt what the writer is telling us. I have grave (!) doubts about the popular interpretation of what the writer is telling us.

[Esaias]

Gill makes an interesting case:

And Samuel said to Saul, why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up?.... This makes it a clear case that this was not the true Samuel; his soul was at rest in Abraham's bosom, in the state of bliss and happiness in heaven, and it was not in the power of men and devils to disquiet it; nor would he have talked of his being brought up, but rather of his coming down, had it been really he; much less would he have acknowledged that he was brought up by Saul, by means of a witch, and through the help of the devil:

[Evang.Benincasa]

But only after Samuel's identity is affirmed by the witch. Saul couldn't see or hear anything. Everything is going through the medium. It specifically says "by the familiar spirit". She's channeling.

If it really is Samuel, then a demonised witch can raise the dead and wring forth genuine prophecy on demand even after God has refused to speak???? That sounds crazy, bro.

My point is not about the characters in the story. My whole point is what the author tells us about the who is who in the story. We are being told by the author who the characters are. The witch did nothing, she was shocked that she screamed, because now she was really in trouble. But God wouldn't answer Saul when he was trying the regular legal means. Saul even goes as far to gain some points with God by killing off the witches. But, Saul is Saul, and when he doesn't get his way, he asks his law breaking stooges "where are some witches I can parley with?" They didn't say, "well, you know king that we got rid of them all?" No, they knew where they could find the dirty politician a witch. So, Saul has finally filled the cup to overflowing, he will not be told a sweet love message about winning or losing a war, whether to go or to stay. But his old prophet is awakened to tell Saul, that he and his lineage is done like the dinner dishes. We read no more about anyone bringing up dead people. We only have one, and that one was the wax job on Saul's Cadillac. Again, the only one who tells us who the spirit really is, is the writer of the story. If he would of wrote, and the SPIRIT said to Saul. Then well, we would know it surely wasn't Samuel. But, the writer tells us it is indeed Samuel. I didn't write the story, so I'm not crazy, the writer of 1st Samuel is crazy.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Gill makes an interesting case:

And Samuel said to Saul, why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up?.... This makes it a clear case that this was not the true Samuel; his soul was at rest in Abraham's bosom, in the state of bliss and happiness in heaven, and it was not in the power of men and devils to disquiet it; nor would he have talked of his being brought up, but rather of his coming down, had it been really he; much less would he have acknowledged that he was brought up by Saul, by means of a witch, and through the help of the devil:

Abraham's bosom is a parable, and souls sleep in the grave until judgement. Samuel was awakened. It only happened this one time, and for a very important judgement call.

[Esaias]

My point is not about the characters in the story. My whole point is what the author tells us about the who is who in the story. We are being told by the author who the characters are. The witch did nothing, she was shocked that she screamed, because now she was really in trouble. But God wouldn't answer Saul when he was trying the regular legal means. Saul even goes as far to gain some points with God by killing off the witches. But, Saul is Saul, and when he doesn't get his way, he asks his law breaking stooges "where are some witches I can parley with?" They didn't say, "well, you know king that we got rid of them all?" No, they knew where they could find the dirty politician a witch. So, Saul has finally filled the cup to overflowing, he will not be told a sweet love message about winning or losing a war, whether to go or to stay. But his old prophet is awakened to tell Saul, that he and his lineage is done like the dinner dishes. We read no more about anyone bringing up dead people. We only have one, and that one was the wax job on Saul's Cadillac. Again, the only one who tells us who the spirit really is, is the writer of the story. If he would of wrote, and the SPIRIT said to Saul. Then well, we would know it surely was Samuel. But, the writer tells us it is indeed Samuel. I didn't write, so I'm not crazy, the writer of 1st Samuel is crazy.

Who is being spoken of here:

1 Chronicles 21:1 KJV
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 KJV
And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

When Scripture tells us God has nostrils, feathers, etc what do we make of it? Is it possible the writer is narrating the account from the point of view of the account? (Not sure if that made sense?) Supposing this was really Samuel creates far more difficulties than the idea she was channeling by a familiar spirit and the recorder simply states what is happening without providing the reader a theological interpretation. That, to me, seems the most Scripturaland reasonable.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I do not doubt what the writer is telling us. I have grave (!) doubts about the popular interpretation of what the writer is telling us.

Yes, but I can only go with what I'm being told by the author. He is filling us in on what is going on in the story. Using Samuel's name is strong indicating evidence that we have Samuel telling Saul how the cow eats the cabbage.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Who is being spoken of here:

1 Chronicles 21:1 KJV
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 KJV
And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

When Scripture tells us God has nostrils, feathers, etc what do we make of it? Is it possible the writer is narrating the account from the point of view of the account? (Not sure if that made sense?) Supposing this was really Samuel creates far more difficulties than the idea she was channeling by a familiar spirit and the recorder simply states what is happening without providing the reader a theological interpretation. That, to me, seems the most Scripturaland reasonable.

So, why didn't we have the author just tell us it was a spirit instead of Samuel?

He doesn't, he tells us it was Samuel. Neither is it symbolic metaphor to use Samuel's name.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Satan tried provoking Jesus to do things, but unlike David, Jesus didn't follow through.

[Esaias]

So, why didn't we have the author just tell us it was a spirit instead of Samuel?

He doesn't, he tells us it was Samuel. Neither is it symbolic metaphor to use Samuel's name.

But he sets the stage by describing her as one who "divine(s) by the familiar spirit". I wasn't saying it was metaphor, I am saying within the immediate context the scribe - after having established she is going to divine by a familiar spirit - stays within that immediate conversation without interrupting to provide commentary.

I will look further into this. The "it was really and truly Samuel" side needs to explain some things, though, like how Samuel is communicating through a medium. That implies she was possessed by Samuel himself????

[Esaias]

Satan tried provoking Jesus to do things, but unlike David, Jesus didn't follow through.

Yet the Chronicler says it was the Lord?

[votivesoul]

Who is being spoken of here:

1 Chronicles 21:1 KJV
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 KJV
And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I think this is resolved by knowing that in Hebrew, "Satan" is not preceded by ha, that is, the prefix when attached to a word, that means "the".

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_chronicles/21-1.htm

So, in this case, it's not SATAN, but rather, a satan (or adversary) that stood up against Israel and provoked David.

The adversary then, is God Himself, or His Angel, as is the case regarding the Angel of Jehovah being called a "satan" in Numbers 22:22:

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/numbers/22-22.htm

Compare these to Job 1:6, where the Hebrew has ha, as in The Adversary (The Satan):

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/1-6.htm

[Esaias]

I think this is resolved by knowing that in Hebrew, "Satan" is not preceded by ha, that is, the prefix when attached to a word, that means "the".

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_chronicles/21-1.htm

So, in this case, it's not SATAN, but rather, a satan (or adversary) that stood up against Israel and provoked David.

The adversary then, is God Himself, or His Angel, as is the case regarding the Angel of Jehovah being called a "satan" in Numbers 22:22:



See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/numbers/22-22.htm

Compare these to Job 1:6, where the Hebrew has ha, as in The Adversary (The Satan):

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/1-6.htm

My point was that Scripture sometimes calls one thing by another, does it not?

[Nicodemus1968]

I want to put a question out there and see what your guys think.

1 Samuel 28:12
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

The word “cried” means anguish or in danger.

The Bible says she was one that had a familiar spirit, yet she cried with a loud voice when she saw Samuel. Why? This should’ve been another run of the mill hearing the voice or seeing the departed. Do you think its possible that not even the witch herself was expecting to see Samuel?

[diakonos]

Yes

[votivesoul]

My point was that Scripture sometimes calls one thing by another, does it not?

It does. Lots of symbolic uses of language, synecdoches, metonyms, and etc.

Heaven and earth come to mind. ;)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yet the Chronicler says it was the Lord?

Read Job. We are told "still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him." Yet, God gave the opportunity to Satan to attack Job. Still God is the one who gave the order, or should we say allowed the situation to go down.

[Evang.Benincasa]

It does. Lots of symbolic uses of language, synecdoches, metonyms, and etc.

Heaven and earth come to mind. ;)

Yet, what logic would there be to consider the below reference to "Samuel said" to mean symbolic metaphor?

5 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

[Esaias]

It does. Lots of symbolic uses of language, synecdoches, metonyms, and etc.

Heaven and earth come to mind. ;)

But I still haven't found the verse that clearly ties those two together. :)

[Whoop Harted]

It was Samuel, he was in the realm of the dead. Everyone who died went to the grave.

Satan controlled the realm of the dead at this time as Jesus had to go and get control back when he was in the grave for the 3 days.

Yet God being totally in control allowed the witch served to pull up Samuel to tell saul that on the next day Saul was going to be with Samuel in the grave.

Consider also 1 Samuel 15 :35 that Samuel did not see Saul until the day of his death.

Who's death? Samuels death or Saul's death?

Samuel saw Saul one more time on the day of his death, Saul's death.

[Esaias]

God refused to answer Saul "by prophets"... until a demon-possessed witch made it happen?

1 Chronicles 10:13-14 KJV
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord , even against the word of the Lord , which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it ; [14] And enquired not of the Lord : therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

Saul was enquiring of a demon, the Bible EXPLICITLY SAYS SO. So who did he enquire of?

1 Samuel 28:15-16 KJV
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. [16] Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

Samuel was dead and in the grave. The witch did not resurrect him, therefore Samuel did not show up at this seance. Saul did not see him, he had to ask the witch what was going on. By the way, the Greek text of the account calls her a ventriloquist. Moreover, the Chronicler explicitly says he enquired of a familiar spirit. A spirit definitely showed up, everyone is agreed. Nobody claims Samuel actually resurrected out of the grave. It was his spirit, people say.

A spirit indeed. A familiar spirit, according to the Bible.

She is a medium who makes a living conjuring the dead. Not bodily, but "spiritually". She is a ventriloquist, she peeps and mutters and speaks from her gut like channelers do as "the ghost of the dearly departed speaks". According to the Bible, it's a demon.

"But he prophesied to Saul!" Really?

1. "God has rejected you and given the kingdom to David." Something everybody already knew, it was why Saul hated David and was trying to kill him. Oops, not really evidence there.

2. "Tomorrow you will die." Oops again, not quite. It was actually a couple days later.

3. "And your sons will die, too, at that time." Three died the same day as Saul. One didn't. Oops again. Three strikes you're out?

"It says 'Samuel said".

How did Samuel speak? Was he really bodily resurrected? No? Then how did he speak? Through the medium who had a familiar spirit. Like all cases of necromancy, divination, "invoking spirits", etc.

But notice something:

Mark 3:11 KJV
And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

Who fell down and cried and said? Unclean spirits, in and of themselves? Or the people who had the demons?

Mark 5:5-7 KJV
And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. [6] But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, [7] And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Wait a minute, who cried saying etc? The speaker in this passage strictly and grammatically refers to the GUY. Yes the demons said it, but again HOW? Through the possessed. And the Bible describes it BOTH ways, as both the demons and the possessed person speaking. This is how disembodied spirits speak - through a host person.

Was the witch POSSESSED BY SAMUEL'S GHOST???? Possessed by the genuine spirit of a genuine holy prophet? That's what you have to believe if you believe the witch literally summoned Samuel for real.

"God brought Samuel up, not the witch."

Really?

1 Samuel 28:15 KJV
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

The prophet seems to think it was Saul who brought him up. Doesn't sound like much of a prophet. Samuel gives no glory to God. Saul, by using a devil possessed witch, brought the prophet into the seance - ACCORDING TO THE PROPHET????

one more thing. The Bible says the dead know nothing and have nothing more to do with what's going on here in the land of the living. Therefore it can't be Samuel's ghost/soul/spirit. If it was, then David and Solomon couldn't and wouldn't have said what they said about the dead.

[Esaias]

I want to put a question out there and see what your guys think.

1 Samuel 28:12
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

The word “cried” means anguish or in danger.

The Bible says she was one that had a familiar spirit, yet she cried with a loud voice when she saw Samuel. Why? This should’ve been another run of the mill hearing the voice or seeing the departed. Do you think its possible that not even the witch herself was expecting to see Samuel?

A witch does her occultic mumbo jumbo and "summons the dead" and begins the seance with a shriek...

...and this is supposed to be a surprise? She has a demon, and she "cries with a loud voice", and this causes us to give pause about what's going on? Really?

I find it to just be part and parcel of her tradecraft. She was probably growling too.

[Esaias]

Yet, what logic would there be to consider the below reference to "Samuel said" to mean symbolic metaphor?

5 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

Not symbolic metaphor, that's not what I was trying to say. See my post a few above this one.

[Michael The Disciple]

Dom:

My point is not about the characters in the story. My whole point is what the author tells us about the who is who in the story. We are being told by the author who the characters are. The witch did nothing, she was shocked that she screamed, because now she was really in trouble.

Nails it IMO.

[Michael The Disciple]

It was Samuel, he was in the realm of the dead. Everyone who died went to the grave.

Satan controlled the realm of the dead at this time as Jesus had to go and get control back when he was in the grave for the 3 days.

Yet God being totally in control allowed the witch served to pull up Samuel to tell saul that on the next day Saul was going to be with Samuel in the grave.

Consider also 1 Samuel 15 :35 that Samuel did not see Saul until the day of his death.

Who's death? Samuels death or Saul's death?

Samuel saw Saul one more time on the day of his death, Saul's death.

:highfive

[Esther]

I've seen videos of radioactive dinosaurs attacking Tokyo and wrestling with giant 100ft tall gorillas, fighting flying giant turtles that shoot laserbeams, running around with two headed dragons, and fighting off the Japanese army.

:heeheehee

Really? That is your best answer? Can 't answer? Just admit you don't know.

There are too many photos to try and say everyone doctored the picture s.

[Nicodemus1968]

Really? That is your best answer? Can 't answer? Just admit you don't know.

There are too many photos to try and say everyone doctored the picture s.

I dont believe in what the world or Hollywood would call ghosts. I believe in spirits, I believe a spirit can be best described as a human without a body. I believe there are 25 or so classification of spirits found in the word. I believe a spirit needs a human for its rest or to fulfill its desire weather that would be witchcraft, gluttony, suicide, lust, adultery, etc...

[diakonos]

I dont believe in what the world or Hollywood would call ghosts. I believe in spirits, I believe a spirit can be best described as a human without a body. I believe there are 25 or so classification of spirits found in the word. I believe a spirit needs a human for its rest or to fulfill its desire weather that would be witchcraft, gluttony, suicide, lust, adultery, etc...

25 classifications based on??

[Michael The Disciple]

I dont believe in what the world or Hollywood would call ghosts. I believe in spirits, I believe a spirit can be best described as a human without a body. I believe there are 25 or so classification of spirits found in the word. I believe a spirit needs a human for its rest or to fulfill its desire weather that would be witchcraft, gluttony, suicide, lust, adultery, etc...

Very strange. So human spirits are wandering around looking for sin to commit? A human spirit without a body is an it?

"It" sounds like what the Lord called "demons". Are demons human spirits?

[Tithesmeister]

I dont believe in what the world or Hollywood would call ghosts. I believe in spirits, I believe a spirit can be best described as a human without a body. I believe there are 25 or so classification of spirits found in the word. I believe a spirit needs a human for its rest or to fulfill its desire weather that would be witchcraft, gluttony, suicide, lust, adultery, etc...

Ghost?

Spirit?

Same thing. Baptist call it Holy Spirit, Pentecostals call it Holy Ghost. It’s the same being. And everyone feels, well, more spiritual.

[Esaias]

Really? That is your best answer? Can 't answer? Just admit you don't know.

There are too many photos to try and say everyone doctored the picture s.

Just stock up on tp and Funyuns, you'll do fine.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Just stock up on tp and Funyuns, you'll do fine.

I went shopping at Whole Foods tonight. Nothing on the shelves.

I left with three cup Ramen, and two boxes of cookies. Not a Funyun in the place. But I could hear Lee Greenwood as I marched into the cattle cars.

[Nicodemus1968]

Very strange. So human spirits are wandering around looking for sin to commit? A human spirit without a body is an it?

"It" sounds like what the Lord called "demons". Are demons human spirits?

I believe demons were created. Through the word you can read where demons,
Have understanding
Understand Authority
Can talk
Can feel
Group together
Etc...

Matthew 12:43
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Where does a spirit find his rest?

Matthew 12:44
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

A spirit knows if your right with God or not.

Matthew 12:45
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Spirits will cluster with other spirits.

[diakonos]

25 classifications based on??

https://media.tenor.com/images/c8a7c7d2721cf5e278e66ce6bad41b52/tenor.gif

[Nicodemus1968]

I understand the Bible talks about the strongman and how where first to bind the strong man in order to spoil his goods. Yet The spirit Of God in your city is the strongest Spirit there. We have nothing to fear when it comes to spiritual warfare. Greater is he that it within me than he that is in the world.

[diakonos]

https://media.tenor.com/images/c8a7c7d2721cf5e278e66ce6bad41b52/tenor.gif

...

[Nicodemus1968]

...

I’ll message you. There is a lot there. I may just take a pic of my notes and send it to you.

[diakonos]

I’ll message you. There is a lot there. I may just take a pic of my notes and send it to you.

Sounds good. You have my number.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I’ll message you. There is a lot there. I may just take a pic of my notes and send it to you.

Your notes?

Have you written an Exorcist Grimoire?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hey send me the notes

[Barb]

No contradiction, they were all sleeping, Samuel was awakened prematurely. Hence he asking "why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?" The witch of Endor had no power, and bringing people up from the dead was possible by soothsayers. But Saul enforces the law on one day, and then breaks it on another day. Samuel was allowed to speak judgement on the law breaker king. God was no longer talking to Saul, not by any means. But the icing on the cake was going to the witch and having Samuel tell Saul what Saul already knew.

Exactly! For the first time the old girl saw the real deal, and it scared the fire out of her... if it was what she was used to seeing it wouldn't have surprised her to see the prophet.

[diakonos]

Hey send me the notes

No. Don’t send him your notes.

[Nicodemus1968]

Your notes?

Have you written an Exorcist Grimoire?

You’ve done enough deliverance ministry you can teach me.

:thumbsup

[Esther]

I believe demons were created. Through the word you can read where demons,
Have understanding
Understand Authority
Can talk
Can feel
Group together
Etc...

Matthew 12:43
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Where does a spirit find his rest?

Matthew 12:44
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

A spirit knows if your right with God or not.

Matthew 12:45
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Spirits will cluster with other spirits.

so are you saying these spirit take the form of the person supposedly died in that area and and appear at times in a photo?

[Esther]

Just stock up on tp and Funyuns, you'll do fine.

And where would suggest I find tp?

[Esaias]

And where would suggest I find tp?

:yourock

Excellent response. I was hoping you didn't take my remarks as me trying to be offensive or rude, because that was definitely not my intention.

[Nicodemus1968]

so are you saying these spirit take the form of the person supposedly died in that area and and appear at times in a photo?

Sis, I cant account for what you seen in photos. It could be photoshopped then again maybe not. All I know is this natural world we live in is not the real world. The events that take place in the world we see, and live in are driven by another world. Attitudes that arise, problems that come against you and me are driven from the spirit world.

I can just tell you what I’ve seen and heard.

[votivesoul]

And where would suggest I find tp?

Try an RV or boating store or aisle, as they sell RV and Marine TP. It's usually fast dissolving and safe for septics. We had some in automotive up until this morning (03/14/2020) at the Walmart I work at, until word spread.

[votivesoul]

My store, which is normally 24 hours, is, starting 03/15/2020, indefinitely closing from 11pm to 6am. All employees on 3rd shift will continue to work, trying to help the store stay stocked and recover from the heavy traffic and sales during the day.

All WI school districts are closing this coming Wednesday. I am losing my service writer until at least April 6. Not sure how many other parents at the store are going to have to stay home to parent their children. We went from no allowed overtime to overtime available to all in less than a week.

[Esaias]

My store, which is normally 24 hours, is, starting 03/15/2020, indefinitely closing from 11pm to 6am. All employees on 3rd shift will continue to work, trying to help the store stay stocked and recover from the heavy traffic and sales during the day.

All WI school districts are closing this coming Wednesday. I am losing my service writer until at least April 6. Not sure how many other parents at the store are going to have to stay home to parent their children. We went from no allowed overtime to overtime available to all in less than a week.

They are wrecking the economy.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Try an RV or boating store or aisle, as they sell RV and Marine TP. It's usually fast dissolving and safe for septics. We had some in automotive up until this morning (03/14/2020) at the Walmart I work at, until word spread.

In my town that was the first TP to go.

Can anyone please tell me why buying TP is important to this crisis?

[Nicodemus1968]

In my town that was the first TP to go.

Can anyone please tell me why buying TP is important to this crisis?

Because they feel as if they’re going to be quarantined for days, weeks, or months. Because of that they feel as if they have to have all these supplies to last.

In my town of 2k-2500 people I went to the local market and the shelves are almost bear. All the potatoes, bananas, tomatoes, eggs, TP, paper towels etc... are all gone. Was Y2K like this? How many believed that lie?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Because they feel as if they’re going to be quarantined for days, weeks, or months. Because of that they feel as if they have to have all these supplies to last.

In my town of 2k-2500 people I went to the local market and the shelves are almost bear. All the potatoes, bananas, tomatoes, eggs, TP, paper towels etc... are all gone. Was Y2K like this? How many believed that lie?

Y2K wasn’t like this, and the AIDS virus wasn’t to this extent. Remember you still had no SOCIAL MEDIA and MAINSTREAM MEDIA hadn’t gotten as fabricators to keep up with SOCIAL MEDIA. But is the whole cleaning out of shelves to maintain us while we stay home? Or because distributors of materials will be unable to travel? You see this is the whole hootenanny, because the no one has a clear idea. It’s all peering into the abyss. Lots of hand wringing, lots of Purell, and Irvin Baxter is salivating because the media is ringing his bell. I must say it is quite interesting to watch people OBEY the one who has raised them. The MEDIA has trained them from a huggable purple dinosaur to accepting the fear from an unknown virus. Yes ghosts are real as real as we want them to be.

[Nicodemus1968]

Y2K wasn’t like this, and the AIDS virus wasn’t to this extent. Remember you still had no SOCIAL MEDIA and MAINSTREAM MEDIA hadn’t gotten as fabricators to keep up with SOCIAL MEDIA. But is the whole cleaning out of shelves to maintain us while we stay home? Or because distributors of materials will be unable to travel? You see this is the whole hootenanny, because the no one has a clear idea. It’s all peering into the abyss. Lots of hand wringing, lots of Purell, and Irvin Baxter is salivating because the media is ringing his bell. I must say it is quite interesting to watch people OBEY the one who has raised them. The MEDIA has trained them from a huggable purple dinosaur to accepting the fear from an unknown virus. Yes ghosts are real as real as we want them to be.

Thats very interesting.

[votivesoul]

They are wrecking the economy.

Nothing a good war can't resolve.

[votivesoul]

In my town that was the first TP to go.

Can anyone please tell me why buying TP is important to this crisis?

Because they feel as if they’re going to be quarantined for days, weeks, or months. Because of that they feel as if they have to have all these supplies to last.

I think it is much more profound and fundamental than just the possibility of being quarantined for awhile.

Toilet paper is a sign of civilization and of the civilized human. Animals go where they want and do not clean themselves afterward. Very ancient, or primitive man the same. To have tp is to remind themselves that they are still in control, they haven't become savages, society hasn't crumbled, they can still take care of business in the loo and feel like they're still human.

[Esaias]

Nothing a good war can't resolve.

Question: Have you heard about private/public partnering with the fed.gov to manage and "safeguard" food distribution coming pretty soon?

Went to local Walmart today. Crowd looked like any other day at Walmart. But, literally NO tp or paper towels, bottled water almost gone except for Dasani and Great Value, all the bagged cereal was gone, all the center aisle frozen meats were gone (completely), the beef, chicken, pork and turkey sections were empty, all the bologna and hot dogs and bacon and cheese and hot links etc were wiped out. Saw a meat dept guy bringing out a pallet thingy to restock the chicken but he only had about 20 packs of chicken legs/thighs etc. His 6 ft tall dolly-wheeled rack only had about three racks with product on it.

Canned goods wiped out, rice and beans gone etc.

Beer aisle was expanded though and well stocked. The Deli looked normal. All the bakery items were in stock, fresh fruit and veggie section was fine.

Nobody even shopping in the clothing aisles.

Only had 4-5 checkout lines open, everyone was being funneled through self-checkout.

I've been through hurricanes etc. I know what empty shelves look like. But they come with massive crowds and people loading up carts with stock-up items. This is different. Kind of surreal. It looks more like a shortage than a run. Our local stores have stopped 24hr service, so they can "restock" at night, but I never see a crowd larger than normal and about 90% of shoppers are always just buying groceries, not stocking up. Weird.

[Esaias]

I think it is much more profound and fundamental than just the possibility of being quarantined for awhile.

Toilet paper is a sign of civilization and of the civilized human. Animals go where they want and do not clean themselves afterward. Very ancient, or primitive man the same. To have tp is to remind themselves that they are still in control, they haven't become savages, society hasn't crumbled, they can still take care of business in the loo and feel like they're still human.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6504&stc=1&d=1584261064

[votivesoul]

Question: Have you heard about private/public partnering with the fed.gov to manage and "safeguard" food distribution coming pretty soon?

Went to local Walmart today. Crowd looked like any other day at Walmart. But, literally NO tp or paper towels, bottled water almost gone except for Dasani and Great Value, all the bagged cereal was gone, all the center aisle frozen meats were gone (completely), the beef, chicken, pork and turkey sections were empty, all the bologna and hot dogs and bacon and cheese and hot links etc were wiped out. Saw a meat dept guy bringing out a pallet thingy to restock the chicken but he only had about 20 packs of chicken legs/thighs etc. His 6 ft tall dolly-wheeled rack only had about three racks with product on it.

Canned goods wiped out, rice and beans gone etc.

Beer aisle was expanded though and well stocked. The Deli looked normal. All the bakery items were in stock, fresh fruit and veggie section was fine.

Nobody even shopping in the clothing aisles.

Only had 4-5 checkout lines open, everyone was being funneled through self-checkout.

I've been through hurricanes etc. I know what empty shelves look like. But they come with massive crowds and people loading up carts with stock-up items. This is different. Kind of surreal. It looks more like a shortage than a run. Our local stores have stopped 24hr service, so they can "restock" at night, but I never see a crowd larger than normal and about 90% of shoppers are always just buying groceries, not stocking up. Weird.

A near-identical description of what my store looked like, right down to the same aisles and items sold out over the weekend. I even took some pics. The only difference is, was the large and obvious crowds. Almost as bad as, if not equal to, a 4th of July weekend. Not Black Friday bad, but close. I ran a register for nearly two hours Saturday morning. One lady purchased $756 of miscellaneous whatever she could get her hands on.

Today was better. Items were better stocked, and the crowds were down. Still out of tp and cleaning supplies, though.

Haven't heard anything about fed.gov partnering, though. I know top-level folks from Walmart were at the White House recently, including CEO Doug McMillion, who spoke at a recent WH press conference.