Magic In The UPC

[Michael The Disciple]

Bishop Jeff Arnold and Magic Monday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnAX82nXlWw&feature=share

[jediwill83]

Yer a wizard Jeff

[Nicodemus1968]

Thats really sad.

[Bowas]

That was really great! Not sure why the original post, but I am going to guess, that taking the title of the thread, it was an attempt to disparage the UPC and Bro Arnold, but if that is the case, it has failed, and if that is the case, I think the reverse occurred and you may be the one that is disparaged.

[Michael The Disciple]

That was really great! Not sure why the original post, but I am going to guess, that taking the title of the thread, it was an attempt to disparage the UPC and Bro Arnold, but if that is the case, it has failed, and if that is the case, I think the reverse occurred and you may be the one that is disparaged.

Bowas, what was REALLY GREAT?

I know how you feel about me. How do you feel about "magic monday"? If there are magicians as "Bishops" in Apostolic Churches is that a small thing?

Why not "fornication friday"?

[Bowas]

Bowas, what was REALLY GREAT?

I know how you feel about me. How do you feel about "magic monday"? If there are magicians as "Bishops" in Apostolic Churches is that a small thing?

Why not "fornication friday"?

Yes. Well, Great may have been a stretch, but it was ok. I like David Copperfield and David Blaine and some others that I have seen. They are great!

Are you serious right now? It's not you I am showing how I feel about, but your ridiculous attempt to slam someone for having some lighthearted fun.

Let me guess. Do you think it is real magic? It is no, so you can relax, as it was slight of hand entertainment. You do enjoy some entertainment on occasion, don't you?

[Michael The Disciple]

Yes. Well, Great may have been a stretch, but it was ok. I like David Copperfield and David Blaine and some others that I have seen. They are great!

Are you serious right now? It's not you I am showing how I feel about, but your ridiculous attempt to slam someone for having some lighthearted fun.

Let me guess. Do you think it is real magic? It is no, so you can relax, as it was slight of hand entertainment. You do enjoy some entertainment on occasion, don't you?

Good for Christian kids to see right? Give them a Bible that says "magicians" are going to Hell. Then give them a "bishop" who outright claims to be a magician.

Give them examples to want to be like, Copperfield and such. Get them into magic while there young.

Nice entertainment. Yea forget this and just go back to exposing those dreaded Charismatics!

[Nicodemus1968]

Good for Christian kids to see right? Give them a Bible that says "magicians" are going to Hell. Then give them a "bishop" who outright claims to be a magician.

Give them examples to want to be like, Copperfield and such. Get them into magic while there young.

Nice entertainment. Yea forget this and just go back to exposing those dreaded Charismatics!

Like Helen Keller said, “the seeing see little.”

SMH

[diakonos]

This place, odder and odder by the day.

[n david]

Bishop Jeff Arnold and Magic Monday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnAX82nXlWw&feature=share

Love it! God bless Bro Arnold.

IIRC he was doing this years ago before becoming a campmeeting/conference speaker.

[Michael The Disciple]

Love it! God bless Bro Arnold.

IIRC he was doing this years ago before becoming a campmeeting/conference speaker.

You love magic in the Church? Bless sin? Arnold may have been doing this years ago but he is still doing it right now.

[mfblume]

The magicians in the bible are not the magicians as we know them as Bro Arnold is showing. Biblical reference to magicians are speaking of demonic power. Bro Arnold is showing sleight of hand.

next....

[Michael The Disciple]

The magicians in the bible are not the magicians as we know them as Bro Arnold is showing. Biblical reference to magicians are speaking of demonic power. Bro Arnold is showing sleight of hand.

next....

Simon the sorcerer was a magician. One who practices magic. A Church can practice magic and its good clean fun. No one is being conditioned to be a deceiver. No one is being conditioned to accept being deceived. Just good clean fun.

A good evangelistic tool! Invite all the kids and maybe the parents will come too!

[Freeindeed]

Simon the sorcerer was a magician. One who practices magic. A Church can practice magic and its good clean fun. No one is being conditioned to be a deceiver. No one is being conditioned to accept being deceived. Just good clean fun.

A good evangelistic tool! Invite all the kids and maybe the parents will come too!

At first glance, I thought this was going to be another magic hair thread.

Brother Arnold wasn't "practicing" magic in the video. As was already mentioned, it was slight of hand.

Your trying to make something out of nothing. Brother Arnold is a great man of God who has lead countless people to salvation in Christ.

To suggest that he would lead children astray by introducing sorcery to them is really beyond comprehension.

I have to admit that I am really disappointed in you Mike. You have really stooped to a new low.

[Whoop Harted]

No, I have to agree with MTD on this one. It is not so much the sleight of hand that is discouraging but the labeling of it as "Magician".

The Bible says, (I know I know, going back to that book again...)

Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

This labeling of MAGICIAN would seem to lead many to confusion.

I gotta swing with Mike on this one. I don't like it either. And I like Bro Arnold. Just think he is wrong on this is all.

Just my .02

[n david]

You love magic in the Church? Bless sin? Arnold may have been doing this years ago but he is still doing it right now.
:dogpat

[Nicodemus1968]

:dogpat

n-david,
Bro. Arnold is a great preacher there is no debate about that. Yet, claiming to be a magician?!? He may not mean any harm, his intention could be pure, yet a wrong is wrong.

[Nicodemus1968]

At first glance, I thought this was going to be another magic hair thread.

Brother Arnold wasn't "practicing" magic in the video. As was already mentioned, it was slight of hand.

Your trying to make something out of nothing. Brother Arnold is a great man of God who has lead countless people to salvation in Christ.

To suggest that he would lead children astray by introducing sorcery to them is really beyond comprehension.

I have to admit that I am really disappointed in you Mike. You have really stooped to a new low.

For M. Blume, and yourself.

According to Wikipedia

Sleight of hand

refers to fine motor skills when used by performing artists in different art forms to entertain or manipulate. It is closely associated with close-up magic, card magic, card flourishing and stealing.

MTD could’ve had the wrong motive as he started this thread. Yet, as great a preacher as Bro. Arnold is, no preacher or saint should be involved in magic, no matter how innocent it looks.

[Michael The Disciple]

Dont forget he knows "hypnosis" also. Magician, hypnotist, nothing to see here. Lets go back to exposing Charismatics!

[Esaias]

Yeah, let's focus on goofy card tricks but ignore ACTUAL witchcraft and hypnosis in the church. Way to go, Mike.

[mfblume]

Yeah, let's focus on goofy card tricks but ignore ACTUAL witchcraft and hypnosis in the church. Way to go, Mike.

I ignored nothing.

Wow.

I said sleight of hand and gimmickry is not magic. And actual witchcraft is always wrong.

Hello?

I would certainly never do anything including sleight of hand in church. But sleight of hand is not magic. The issue of magic in the church is not tricks. Magic is magic. Supernatural. Not trickery. Who said Arnold was doing actual magic and hypnosis, or what are you talking about?

[Michael The Disciple]

I ignored nothing.

Wow.

I said sleight of hand and gimmickry is not magic. And actual witchcraft is always wrong.

Hello?

I would certainly never do anything including sleight of hand in church. But sleight of hand is not magic. The issue of magic in the church is not tricks. Magic is magic. Supernatural. Not trickery. Who said Arnold was doing actual magic and hypnosis, or what are you talking about?

Watch the video on post 1. Arnold says he does both. They have "magic monday" at Church.

[Esaias]

I ignored nothing.

Wow.

I said sleight of hand and gimmickry is not magic. And actual witchcraft is always wrong.

Hello?

I would certainly never do anything including sleight of hand in church. But sleight of hand is not magic. The issue of magic in the church is not tricks. Magic is magic. Supernatural. Not trickery. Who said Arnold was doing actual magic and hypnosis, or what are you talking about?

You got the wrong Mike. :thumbsup

[diakonos]

I ignored nothing.

Wow.

I said sleight of hand and gimmickry is not magic. And actual witchcraft is always wrong.

Hello?

I would certainly never do anything including sleight of hand in church. But sleight of hand is not magic. The issue of magic in the church is not tricks. Magic is magic. Supernatural. Not trickery. Who said Arnold was doing actual magic and hypnosis, or what are you talking about?
Uh, the Mike they started this thread

[Birddog]

:heeheehee

[Michael The Disciple]

Isnt "trickery" deceit? Is it right or wrong to be ok with "deceit"? Isnt this a man (albeit popular) teaching the art of deception? Isnt it teaching the children that deception is cool?

Paul said men would wax worse and worse deceiving and being deceived.

Magic is practiced OPENLY in the Apostolic movement by one of its great leaders. If its just "trickery" its point is "deception". Its ok for our movement to be identified with magic, hypnosis, and deception!

No outrage. No sense that the honor of Jesus is being violated. Just another big yawn as we worry about going "Charismatic".

[diakonos]

The guy in love with IHOP griping about a kid’s truck. Ok. Sure.

[Michael The Disciple]

The guy in love with IHOP griping about a kid’s truck. Ok. Sure.

Yeah just a kids trick!

They call it MAGIC MONDAY! Starring the Great Maloney! Sounds like the Great Bologny dont it?

Magic is good clean fun:heeheehee

But beware of those evil Charismatics!:highfive

[consapente89]

The guy in love with IHOP griping about a kid’s truck. Ok. Sure.

C’mon!!!!!:thumbsup

[consapente89]

Brother Arnold’s sleeves could be a a little longer tho..:icecream

[KeptByTheWord]

Brother Arnold’s sleeves could be a a little longer tho..:icecream

The horse and pony circus continues here unabated.... :heeheehee


Seriously... I agree with MTD's premise... this kind of thing should not be promoted to children, as it could open up a door into other things more nefarious. Sleight of hand and illusions are not magic but are a gateway that could lead to that, care should be taken not to deliver a wrong message to children either.

[Nicodemus1968]

Brother Arnold’s sleeves could be a a little longer tho..:icecream

LOL. :heeheehee

[Esaias]

Isnt "trickery" deceit? Is it right or wrong to be ok with "deceit"? Isnt this a man (albeit popular) teaching the art of deception? Isnt it teaching the children that deception is cool?

Paul said men would wax worse and worse deceiving and being deceived.

Magic is practiced OPENLY in the Apostolic movement by one of its great leaders. If its just "trickery" its point is "deception". Its ok for our movement to be identified with magic, hypnosis, and deception!

No outrage. No sense that the honor of Jesus is being violated. Just another big yawn as we worry about going "Charismatic".

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds, apparently.

You ready to walk through it step by step?

[Michael The Disciple]

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds, apparently.

You ready to walk through it step by step?

Hard to believe that you would be ok with MAGIC practiced in an Apostolic Church. But "deception" seems to be the order of the day.

[n david]

The horse and pony circus continues here unabated.... :heeheehee

Seriously... I agree with MTD's premise... this kind of thing should not be promoted to children, as it could open up a door into other things more nefarious. Sleight of hand and illusions are not magic but are a gateway that could lead to that, care should be taken not to deliver a wrong message to children either.

Have you ever used your fingers and pretended to steal the nose of a little child?

Gateway.

Have you ever used a coin or some other thing and pretended to pull it from behind an ear?

Gateway.

Have you participated in the viral prank where you put a coin under a water bottle?

Gateway.

It's really absurd, because these things aren't going to do anything but bring laughter. It's not going to turn the kids into literal warlocks or witches.

Let's talk about gateways. You're using a computer, correct? Do kids use computers? Porn is easily accessible on the internet. Ergo, computers and the interwebs are gateways.

MtD and those against JA for his little show should take a breath and find something else to be outraged about.

[n david]

The guy in love with IHOP griping about a kid’s truck. Ok. Sure.
Bingo!

Mike's okay with contemplative prayer, centering, and new age mysticism from Bickle and Edwards ... but do a silly coin or hankie trick and he'll condemn you!

[n david]

n-david,
Bro. Arnold is a great preacher there is no debate about that. Yet, claiming to be a magician?!? He may not mean any harm, his intention could be pure, yet a wrong is wrong.
Okay. CRUCIFY HIM!

[Jito463]

Have you ever used your fingers and pretended to steal the nose of a little child?

Gateway.

Have you ever used a coin or some other thing and pretended to pull it from behind an ear?

Gateway.

Have you participated in the viral prank where you put a coin under a water bottle?

Gateway.

It's really absurd, because these things aren't going to do anything but bring laughter. It's not going to turn the kids into literal warlocks or witches.

Let's talk about gateways. You're using a computer, correct? Do kids use computers? Porn is easily accessible on the internet. Ergo, computers and the interwebs are gateways.

MtD and those against JA for his little show should take a breath and find something else to be outraged about.

:highfive

[Michael The Disciple]

Bingo!

Mike's okay with contemplative prayer, centering, and new age mysticism from Bickle and Edwards ... but do a silly coin or hankie trick and he'll condemn you!

If Misty and Bickle were new age does THAT JUSTIFY "Magic" not my words but THEIR OWN WORDS in an "Apostolic" Church?

Yea I knew we could find a way to justify it. Just attack those evil Charismatics!

That makes it all OK!

[n david]

If Misty and Bickle were new age does THAT JUSTIFY "Magic" not my words but THEIR OWN WORDS in an "Apostolic" Church?

Yea I knew we could find a way to justify it. Just attack those evil Charismatics!

That makes it all OK!

It's telling who you choose to attack and who you choose to defend.

You attack JA, an Apostolic minister.
You defend new age, false prophets Bickle and Edwards. Both who actually do more damage and have damned more people to hell than JA ever could.

[Michael The Disciple]

It's telling who you choose to attack and who you choose to defend.

You attack JA, an Apostolic minister.
You defend new age, false prophets Bickle and Edwards. Both who actually do more damage and have damned more people to hell than JA ever could.

What am I defending them from? I always agree with truth when I hear it. With IHOP it was the end time message. They teach truth on it to which I agree. It was the sermon on the mount to which I agree.

At one point a few Ministers there began to teach Acts 2:38. I was glad but Bickle to his shame stopped it. He failed the move of God. I still love IHOP as I do any Spirit baptized people. Do I promote them? No. Do I like much of their music?Yes.

As far as Jeff Arnold I was not looking for something against him. I learned that the Pastor of the Church he Pastored was a post trib teacher. I watched some of the live streams and had hopes for them.

It was while watching a Facebook service I discovered "MAGIC MONDAY".

How disappointing to learn that he is trained in deception and sowing the seeds of it in others. And how odd that those who would so quickly expose error among those evil Charismatics so zealously defend it among themselves.:highfive

[diakonos]

Mike’s (not Blume :lol ) real gripe here is that someone here speaks against charismatics.

Not the sleight of hand.

Real lame.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mike’s (not Blume :lol ) real gripe here is that someone here speaks against charismatics.

Not the sleight of hand.

Real lame.

Oh really? And how do you know that? Yes I have a disdain for MAGIC being practiced, not my words but THEIRS in a Church that claims to be "Apostolic".

And the defenders of MAGIC being practiced in the Church say its ONLY DECEPTION!

Yea whats a little DECEPTION and fun and games!

They COULD say altho they think the man has done some goods things in the kingdom but his practicing and advertising his MAGIC MONDAY is a disturbing event.

[Nicodemus1968]

Okay. CRUCIFY HIM!

I never mentioned anything about crucifying him. I agreed with you, I believe he’s a great preacher. I just disagree with his mystical Monday’s or whatever it’s called.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by n david View Post
Okay. CRUCIFY HIM!

Should he be reproved and asked to repent?

[diakonos]

Should he be reproved and asked to repent?

You need to repent for posting charismatic garb.

[Michael The Disciple]

You need to repent for posting charismatic garb.

Ok. I need to repent but the MAGIC MAN should be left to go on deceiving children.

[mfblume]

You got the wrong Mike. :thumbsup

Sorry. But i thought you quoted my post to which responded.

[Bowas]

Ok. I need to repent but the MAGIC MAN should be left to go on deceiving children.

Have you ever been on one side of a person and reached across their back and tapped them on the opposite shoulder, teasing them to think someone on the other side was tapping them? Have you ever done anything like that? How about tell a joke, that is totally fictional?

Well, if you have ever engaged in either of these, and I am sure I could think of other instances, but if you have ever did the tapping thing, please repent for you deceptive spirit, and if you have ever told a fictional joke, please repent for your lying spirit.

Seriously, this is one of the silliest threads I have ever ran across.

[Freeindeed]

Have you ever used your fingers and pretended to steal the nose of a little child?

Gateway.

Have you ever used a coin or some other thing and pretended to pull it from behind an ear?

Gateway.

Have you participated in the viral prank where you put a coin under a water bottle?

Gateway.

It's really absurd, because these things aren't going to do anything but bring laughter. It's not going to turn the kids into literal warlocks or witches.

Let's talk about gateways. You're using a computer, correct? Do kids use computers? Porn is easily accessible on the internet. Ergo, computers and the interwebs are gateways.

MtD and those against JA for his little show should take a breath and find something else to be outraged about.

Post of the day!

[Nicodemus1968]

Have you ever been on one side of a person and reached across their back and tapped them on the opposite shoulder, teasing them to think someone on the other side was tapping them? Have you ever done anything like that? How about tell a joke, that is totally fictional?

Well, if you have ever engaged in either of these, and I am sure I could think of other instances, but if you have ever did the tapping thing, please repent for you deceptive spirit, and if you have ever told a fictional joke, please repent for your lying spirit.

Seriously, this is one of the silliest threads I have ever ran across.

Why do you feel like you have to defend magic by using comparisons such as telling a joke. Brother, if that’s the case then we can almost justify anything.

[Michael The Disciple]

Look guys it is Jeff Arnold who claims he is practicing MAGIC. It was not me. He has MAGIC MONDAY regularly. On the video he seems to be claiming also to be a hypnotist. Again it is not me accusing him of these things he OPENLY ADMITS IT!

[Freeindeed]

Look guys it is Jeff Arnold who claims he is practicing MAGIC. It was not me. He has MAGIC MONDAY regularly. On the video he seems to be claiming also to be a hypnotist. Again it is not me accusing him of these things he OPENLY ADMITS IT!

:beatdeadhorse

[diakonos]

The ignorance here has forced me to WATCH the video, while I could have been on Facebook.

JA opens stating that the hand is not faster than the eye, “I can get you to look into a different direction.”

He doesn’t claim to be a hypnotist, it is the rope gig.

EVERYONE knows that what he is doing is called MAGIC, and NO ONE in their RIGHT MIND believes that it is the stuff from Harry Potter or the stuff practiced by a witch, warlock, shaman, or curandero.

[diakonos]

:beatdeadhorse

EXACTLY :blah

[diakonos]

Let the old man bring joy to some kids and maybe adults before he dies. Good grief.

[Michael The Disciple]

Let the old man bring joy to some kids and maybe adults before he dies. Good grief.

The joy of magic, or is it just "deceit". Now we know in some circles there is no such thing as sin.

[consapente89]

Okay. CRUCIFY HIM!

I mean...I’m not for short sleeves...but that’s a little harsh, don’t ya think?

[diakonos]

The joy of magic, or is it just "deceit". Now we know in some circles there is no such thing as sin.

How is it deceit if he explains how to... you know what, never mind.

[Nicodemus1968]

How is it deceit if he explains how to... you know what, never mind.

:heeheehee

[Esaias]

Oh really? And how do you know that? Yes I have a disdain for MAGIC being practiced, not my words but THEIRS in a Church that claims to be "Apostolic".

And the defenders of MAGIC being practiced in the Church say its ONLY DECEPTION!

Yea whats a little DECEPTION and fun and games!

They COULD say altho they think the man has done some goods things in the kingdom but his practicing and advertising his MAGIC MONDAY is a disturbing event.

What is magic, and why is it a sin?

Follow-up question: is Jeff Arnold practicing the "sin of magic"?

[Praxeas]

The magicians in the bible are not the magicians as we know them as Bro Arnold is showing. Biblical reference to magicians are speaking of demonic power. Bro Arnold is showing sleight of hand.

next....
It's Magic TRICKS. Just because it has the word magic does not make it the same as occultism.

They are tricks, slight of hand, illusions.

[Praxeas]

Simon the sorcerer was a magician. One who practices magic. A Church can practice magic and its good clean fun. No one is being conditioned to be a deceiver. No one is being conditioned to accept being deceived. Just good clean fun.

A good evangelistic tool! Invite all the kids and maybe the parents will come too!
Not magic tricks. You are confusing slight of hand with occultism

[Praxeas]

You ever grab a kids nose and say "got your nose" then show a fist with the thumb between the fingers? That's magic. You going to hell to see the Debil

[consapente89]

Poor Bro. Arnold...

[Praxeas]

Have you ever used your fingers and pretended to steal the nose of a little child?

Gateway.

Have you ever used a coin or some other thing and pretended to pull it from behind an ear?

Gateway.

Have you participated in the viral prank where you put a coin under a water bottle?

Gateway.

It's really absurd, because these things aren't going to do anything but bring laughter. It's not going to turn the kids into literal warlocks or witches.

Let's talk about gateways. You're using a computer, correct? Do kids use computers? Porn is easily accessible on the internet. Ergo, computers and the interwebs are gateways.

MtD and those against JA for his little show should take a breath and find something else to be outraged about.
Lol...I posted before reading.

[Praxeas]

Ok. I need to repent but the MAGIC MAN should be left to go on deceiving children.

https://youtu.be/nwKU5NseREA

[Praxeas]

https://youtu.be/nwKU5NseREA

[Praxeas]

Have you ever been on one side of a person and reached across their back and tapped them on the opposite shoulder, teasing them to think someone on the other side was tapping them? Have you ever done anything like that? How about tell a joke, that is totally fictional?

Well, if you have ever engaged in either of these, and I am sure I could think of other instances, but if you have ever did the tapping thing, please repent for you deceptive spirit, and if you have ever told a fictional joke, please repent for your lying spirit.

Seriously, this is one of the silliest threads I have ever ran across.:slaphappy:slaphappy:slaphappy

[Praxeas]

Why do you feel like you have to defend magic by using comparisons such as telling a joke. Brother, if that’s the case then we can almost justify anything.

Because he called it deception. It's entertainment. Is story telling evil too?

[Praxeas]

Don't read fiction. Don't watch Christian cartoons...don't use parables

[Bowas]

Why do you feel like you have to defend magic by using comparisons such as telling a joke. Brother, if that’s the case then we can almost justify anything.

Michael was saying this "MAGIC" was deception he is teaching children. It is not MAGIC!! It is sleight of hand, intended to tease another person. May it confuses Michael, and in that it confuses him. he thinks it is MAGIC? Same with a joke, by his reasoning.

[Bowas]

The ignorance here has forced me to WATCH the video, while I could have been on Facebook.

JA opens stating that the hand is not faster than the eye, “I can get you to look into a different direction.”

He doesn’t claim to be a hypnotist, it is the rope gig.

EVERYONE knows that what he is doing is called MAGIC, and NO ONE in their RIGHT MIND believes that it is the stuff from Harry Potter or the stuff practiced by a witch, warlock, shaman, or curandero.


You nailed it with that.

[Nicodemus1968]

Because he called it deception. It's entertainment. Is story telling evil too?

Wait a second brother, lets think about this. Bro. Arnold a great UPCI preacher calls his Facebook Show “Magic Monday”. What’s interesting is Bro. Arnold calls it magic, yet you all that are defending him, say its not magic. LOL! I’m not trying to discredit Bro. Arnold, yet, he himself is calling what he is doing magic. It’s not telling a story, its not pulling a prank, its magic. He refers to himself as the “Great Maloney” I’m sorry but I don't need to refer myself to the great whatever when I’m telling a joke. And yes I agree with you its entertainment, its entertaining with magic. Plain and simple, no hard feelings

[diakonos]

Wait a second brother, lets think about this. Bro. Arnold a great UPCI preacher calls his Facebook Show “Magic Monday”. What’s interesting is Bro. Arnold calls it magic, yet you all that are defending him, say its not magic. LOL! I’m not trying to discredit Bro. Arnold, yet, he himself is calling what he is doing magic. It’s not telling a story, its not pulling a prank, its magic. He refers to himself as the “Great Maloney” I’m sorry but I don't need to refer myself to the great whatever when I’m telling a joke. And yes I agree with you its entertainment, its entertaining with magic. Plain and simple, no hard feelings

No, it’s not plain and simple. Tricks are not magic.

[Nicodemus1968]

Don't read fiction. Don't watch Christian cartoons...don't use parables

I’m baffled, your comparing Parables to the “Great Maloney, Magic Monday” show? Christian Cartoons? Once again Brother, dont get mad at Mike,

BRO. ARNOLD CALLED IT MAGIC MONDAY ALL BY HIMSELF. HE REFERS TO WHAT HE DOES AS MAGIC. HE CALLED HIMSELF THE GREAT MALONEY. CALL BRO. ARNOLD AND TELL HIM WHAT HE IS DOING IS NOT MAGIC.

I did a Diakonos :heeheehee

[diakonos]

I’m baffled, your comparing Parables to the “Great Maloney, Magic Monday” show? Christian Cartoons? Once again Brother, dont get mad at Mike,

BRO. ARNOLD CALLED IT MAGIC MONDAY ALL BY HIMSELF. HE REFERS TO WHAT HE DOES AS MAGIC. HE CALLED HIMSELF THE GREAT MALONEY. CALL BRO. ARNOLD AND TELL HIM WHAT HE IS DOING IS NOT MAGIC.

I did a Diakonos :heeheehee

No, you did not.

[Nicodemus1968]

Michael was saying this "MAGIC" was deception he is teaching children. It is not MAGIC!! It is sleight of hand, intended to tease another person. May it confuses Michael, and in that it confuses him. he thinks it is MAGIC? Same with a joke, by his reasoning.

sleight of hand

By definition is deception and manipulation. We think magic is only bad if its Harry Potter, magic starts in various levels. Entry level with magic tricks always begin with cards, ribbons etc.. from there as you get better you go deeper.

Let me ask you would you let you daughter dress as a witch for Halloween?

[Nicodemus1968]

No, you did not.

I thought I did.

[Nicodemus1968]

No, it’s not plain and simple. Tricks are not magic.

Tell that to Bro. Arnold. He even refers to what it is, Magic.

[Bowas]

sleight of hand

By definition is deception and manipulation. We think magic is only bad if its Harry Potter, magic starts in various levels. Entry level with magic tricks always begin with cards, ribbons etc.. from there as you get better you go deeper.

Let me ask you would you let you daughter dress as a witch for Halloween?

We need not validate the intent of this thread, by encouraging such ludicrous comparisons. Seriously, it is not magic, nor does it introduce children to magic.

I cannot believe people even entertain that notion, and the closest I have seen to magic in this thread, is people that think what Bro Arnold is doing in magic, and they allow their brains to "conjure" up in their imagination to think it is. Now that is the real magic that can't be explained rationally. lol

[Nicodemus1968]

We need not validate the intent of this thread, by encouraging such ludicrous comparisons. Seriously, it is not magic, nor does it introduce children to magic.

I cannot believe people even entertain that notion, and the closest I have seen to magic in this thread, is people that think what Bro Arnold is doing in magic, and they allow their brains to "conjure" up in their imagination to think it is. Now that is the real magic that can't be explained rationally. lol

We can end on that. Lord Bless

[Esaias]

What is magic, and why is it a sin?

Follow-up question: is Jeff Arnold practicing the "sin of magic"?

Bump for MTD.

[mfblume]

Look guys it is Jeff Arnold who claims he is practicing MAGIC. It was not me. He has MAGIC MONDAY regularly. On the video he seems to be claiming also to be a hypnotist. Again it is not me accusing him of these things he OPENLY ADMITS IT!

so you're saying that he's actually operating by the Demonic powers of Satan?

[mfblume]

All I can think of is that the wooden judgmentalism where there's no budging from a certain opinion is going to be the measure in which people that propose such a thing are going to be judged themselves. I hope you have fun with it.

[diakonos]

I can’t believe the selective ignorance going on here. Accusing a man of God of being a witch.

[Michael The Disciple]

sleight of hand

By definition is deception and manipulation. We think magic is only bad if its Harry Potter, magic starts in various levels. Entry level with magic tricks always begin with cards, ribbons etc.. from there as you get better you go deeper.

Let me ask you would you let you daughter dress as a witch for Halloween?

Awesome!

[Michael The Disciple]

Bump for MTD.

He...Bishop Jeff Arnold....says he is practicing magic.

Is he not saying that?

MAGIC MONDAY?

[Michael The Disciple]

so you're saying that he's actually operating by the Demonic powers of Satan?

Is magic given by satan or given by God?

[Esaias]

He...Bishop Jeff Arnold....says he is practicing magic.

Is he not saying that?

MAGIC MONDAY?

You just CANNOT answer a few direct, simple questions, can you?

Never mind, forget about it.

[Michael The Disciple]

You just CANNOT answer a few direct, simple questions, can you?

Never mind, forget about it.

If you cant take the truth why ask?

[mfblume]

Is magic given by satan or given by God?

You did not answer me.

Sleight of hand is NOT magic. It is CALLED magic because people, who don't realize and understand how it works with sleight of hand with no supernatural power actually there, think it can only be supernatural. So MAGIC is not what it actually is, and God knows it is not.

So, again, are YOU saying Arnold works by demonic power to do what he does on the sole basis that he used that word "magic"?

[Michael The Disciple]

Is sleight of hand a gateway to magic?

Found this book on a search.

5.0 out of 5 stars Must-have for the beginner or intermediate magician
Reviewed in the United States on January 4, 2012
Verified Purchase
Harry Lorayne's "The Magic Book" provides an excellent overview of sleight of hand magic. It's written for the beginner, but it provides enough material that will take months to master. [I consider it one of the two must-reads for the beginner, along with Mark Wilson's Complete Course in Magic.] The book mainly discusses card magic, coin magic, and mentalism and "mental calculator" magic - with some other miscellaneous magic thrown in. The tricks use everyday objects.

Mr. Lorayne gives very clear and detailed explanations of how you should hold your hands, how to present the tricks, etc. More importantly, he explains *WHY* the tricks work the way they do.

Don't discount these tricks as being "beginner". Just because they are simple, doesn't mean they are not hard-hitting. I've seen tricks out of this book floor a room full of magicians. Magicians have many opportunities to buy one-trick DVDs for $30 or $50. As a beginner, do yourself a favor and get this and/or the Mark Wilson book first. Mastering the magic here will take a beginner (or intermediate) magician a long way into the world of magic. This is a gem well worth the money.

Sleight of hand will take you a LONG WAY INTO THE WORLD OF MAGIC!

Perhaps many have been bewitched/deceived so badly they only see sin if its in some other group, person, or Church.

[Michael The Disciple]

You did not answer me.

Sleight of hand is NOT magic. It is CALLED magic because people, who don't realize and understand how it works with sleight of hand with no supernatural power actually there, think it can only be supernatural. So MAGIC is not what it actually is, and God knows it is not.

So, again, are YOU saying Arnold works by demonic power to do what he does on the sole basis that he used that word "magic"?

Probably all magicians started out with "sleight of hand tricks".

I believe it is demonic, that is being led by demons for someone to call their Church presentation MAGIC MONDAY performing tricks and calling it MAGIC..

Staggering that "Apostolic" preachers defend it! They (those who do) themselves have been bewitched without doubt.

Arnold needs to repent.

[Michael The Disciple]

Another search yields

5.0 out of 5 stars THE Magic Book
Reviewed in the United States on April 29, 1999
If you've dabbled in magic and decide you want to get serious, this is the book to get. If you need a gift for a budding young magicion, this is the book to get. Many people know Harry as a memory expert, but magicians also know Harry as an accomplished performer, teacher, and author of magic.
``The Magic Book'' contains descriptions of solid, professional style (no pulling coins out of ears magic here!) close up magic. Indeed, many magicians complained to Harry that he was giving too much away. Their loss is definately your gain.
As a note, this book is in print, having been republished recently by L&L publishing. You might have to search for it. Any magic shop should be able to get it for you, or search the web for a magic supplier.

So people start out dabbling in magic. Sleight of hand? Then they go deeper.

They get serious with MAGIC. They become MAGICIANS.

[mfblume]

Probably all magicians started out with "sleight of hand tricks".

I believe it is demonic, that is being led by demons for someone to call their Church presentation MAGIC MONDAY performing tricks and calling it MAGIC..

Staggering that "Apostolic" preachers defend it! They (those who do) themselves have been bewitched without doubt.

Arnold needs to repent.

It's staggering that you are looking so much to demonize Arnold that you claim that sleight of hand is demonic supernatural power.

God expects us to be honest about something and not misrepresent it and not misrepresent a brother. I would not do sleight of hand in church with kids, but that does not mean I can call sleight of hand a supernatural use of demonic power.

This is too stupid to talk about any more.

We cannot judge someone for what we think they will later do, because there is some claim that it will go deeper. That's so unrighteous, I cannot begin to describe it.

JUDGE: You got angry at your wife, sir. That has led others deeper until they finally killed their wives. So, I charge you with murder for having become angry at your wife.

JUDGE: And you, sir, saw a card trick and became enamoured with sleight of hand. That has led others to go into actual witchcraft, and delve into supernatural evil power of satan. So, I charge you with satanism and bona fide witchcraft.



From Petra:

Everybody look there's a new bandwagon in town
Hop on board and let the wind carry you around
Seems like there's not enough to keep us busy till the Lord comes back
Don Quixote's gotta have another windmill to attack

Another witch hunt looking for evil wherever we can find it
Off on a tangent, hope the Lord won't mind it
Another witch hunt, takin' a break from all our gospel labor
On a crusade but we forgot our saber

There's a new way to spend all our energies
We're up in arms instead of down on our knees
Walkin' over dollars trying to find another dime
Never mind the souls 'cause we really haven't got the time

So send out the dogs and tally ho
Before we sleep tonight we've got miles to go
No one is safe, no stone's left unturned
And we won't stop until somebody gets burned
Bro Bro Bro Bro Bro Bro Brothers

[Michael The Disciple]

Let the magicians speak for themselves about the "journey" from tricks to serious magic.

5.0 out of 5 stars A superb introduction to sleight-of-hand magic!
Reviewed in the United States on October 13, 1998

Harry Lorayne is best known today as a memory expert. Six Las Vegas casinos won't deal Blackjack to him because of his ability to remember cards. However, within the magic fraternity, Lorayne is both a top notch entertainer and original thinker. I've used two card sleights he invented, the halo cut and the ultra-move, to perform what look like card miracles for audiences. In "The Magic Book", Lorayne presents a complete and solid grounding in the basics of sleight-of-hand magic. Starting with cards, he explains the basics of false shuffling, false cuts, double lifts, palming, and forces. His explanation of the jog shuffle is vital for every magician who works with cards. The following two chapters describe effects and routines that use the sleights just explained and essentially self-working card routines. Many of these routines are real stunners, quite literally reputation makers. Whether easy or difficult to perform, the routines give the illusion of the performer being a wizard with cards. Turning from cards, basic coin sleights and routines are explained next, followed by number magic, mental magic and miscellaneous magic. One of the most important parts of the book is the "Afterthoughts" paragraph that follows the description of a particular sleight or routine. Here, Lorayne explains both important points to remember and why certain moves or patter work. These explanations turn the tricks into real magic. Harry Lorayne is one of the best teachers of magic around. "The Magic Book" supports that contention by demonstrating that Lorayne teaches one how to be a magician, that is, how to make real magic happen, as opposed to simply doing tricks. This book is one which belongs in every magician's library.

Progression from sleight of hand into number, mental, and miscellaneous MAGIC.

What could go wrong!

Simon the sorcerer would have a field day in this modern time.

[Esaias]

Is sleight of hand a gateway to magic?

Found this book on a search.



Sleight of hand will take you a LONG WAY INTO THE WORLD OF MAGIC!

Perhaps many have been bewitched/deceived so badly they only see sin if its in some other group, person, or Church.

Un. Believe. Able.

You are something else.

[Esaias]

Let the magicians speak for themselves about the "journey" from tricks to serious magic.


Progression from sleight of hand into number, mental, and miscellaneous MAGIC.

What could go wrong!

Simon the sorcerer would have a field day in this modern time.

With people like you around? Yes, he would have had an absolute field day.

By all means, tell us more, please.

[Michael The Disciple]

It's staggering that you are looking so much to demonize Arnold that you claim that sleight of hand is demonic supernatural power.

God expects us to be honest about something and not misrepresent it and not misrepresent a brother. I would not do slight of hand in church with kids, but that does not mean I can call sleight of hand a supernatural use of demonic power.

This is too stupid to talk about any more.

We cannot judge someone for what we think they will later do, because there is some claim that it will go deeper. That's so unrighteous, I cannot begin to describe it.

JUDGE: You got angry at your wife, sir. That has led others deeper until they finally killed their wives. So, I charge you with murder for having become angry at your wife.

JUDGE: And you, sir, saw a card trick and became enamoured with sleight of hand. That has led others to go into actual witchcraft, and delve into supernatural evil power of satan. So, I charge you with satanism and bona fide withcraft.



From Petra:

Everybody look there's a new bandwagon in town
Hop on board and let the wind carry you around
Seems like there's not enough to keep us busy till the Lord comes back
Don Quixote's gotta have another windmill to attack

Another witch hunt looking for evil wherever we can find it
Off on a tangent, hope the Lord won't mind it
Another witch hunt, takin' a break from all our gospel labor
On a crusade but we forgot our saber

There's a new way to spend all our energies
We're up in arms instead of down on our knees
Walkin' over dollars trying to find another dime
Never mind the souls 'cause we really haven't got the time

So send out the dogs and tally ho
Before we sleep tonight we've got miles to go
No one is safe, no stone's left unturned
And we won't stop until somebody gets burned
Bro Bro Bro Bro Bro Bro Brothers

In no way am I "misrepresenting" the man. In your defence of him you overlook he has MAGIC MONDAY in his Church.

HE....NOT....ME calls what he is doing MAGIC.

[mfblume]

In no way am I "misrepresenting" the man. In your defence of him you overlook he has MAGIC MONDAY in his Church.

HE....NOT....ME calls what he is doing MAGIC.

But it is not magic and you know it is not. I explained the use of the term.

Anyway, I said it was too crazy a chat to continue in.

[Michael The Disciple]

But it is not magic and you know it is not. I explained the use of the term.

Anyway, I said it was too crazy a chat to continue in.

If it is NOT MAGIC but he says it IS MAGIC what does that make him?

A liar? Or a deceiver? Its all in FUN!

We could NEVER be bewitched!

[Jito463]

If it is NOT MAGIC but he says it IS MAGIC what does that make him?

A liar? Or a deceiver? Its all in FUN!

We could NEVER be bewitched!

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/animals-mountains-molehills-mole_hills-moles-domestics-bwhn1498_low.jpg

[mfblume]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/animals-mountains-molehills-mole_hills-moles-domestics-bwhn1498_low.jpg

..."But, you used the word MOUNTAIN, and I know that you meant a mole hill in reality, but YOU SAID MOUNTAIN! So that makes the mole into a real mountain. Are you bewitched?"

[Jito463]

..."But, you used the word MOUNTAIN, and I know that you meant a mole hill in reality, but YOU SAID MOUNTAIN! So that makes the mole into a real mountain. Are you bewitched?"

:heeheehee

[diakonos]

Probably all magicians started out with "sleight of hand tricks".

I believe it is demonic, that is being led by demons for someone to call their Church presentation MAGIC MONDAY performing tricks and calling it MAGIC..

Staggering that "Apostolic" preachers defend it! They (those who do) themselves have been bewitched without doubt.

Arnold needs to repent.

You’re a fool. Selah.

[diakonos]

With people like you around? Yes, he would have had an absolute field day.

By all means, tell us more, please.

Really though :lol

[Nicodemus1968]

You’re a fool. Selah.

LOL!

Your turning into a Psalmist...

[diakonos]

LOL!

Your turning into a Psalmist...

:hanky

[n david]

What am I defending them from? I always agree with truth when I hear it. With IHOP it was the end time message. They teach truth on it to which I agree. It was the sermon on the mount to which I agree.
What does the Bible say about just a little leaven? Remember that verse?

At one point a few Ministers there began to teach Acts 2:38. I was glad but Bickle to his shame stopped it. He failed the move of God.
He didn't "fail" the move of God, he REJECTED it. And you still follow and defend them.

I still love IHOP as I do any Spirit baptized people.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6Zt1S65IMxMUimyY/giphy.gif

Do I promote them? No. Do I like much of their music?Yes.
You do promote them by posting their music from Misty Edwards on here.

As far as Jeff Arnold I was not looking for something against him. I learned that the Pastor of the Church he Pastored was a post trib teacher. I watched some of the live streams and had hopes for them.

It was while watching a Facebook service I discovered "MAGIC MONDAY".

How disappointing to learn that he is trained in deception and sowing the seeds of it in others. And how odd that those who would so quickly expose error among those evil Charismatics so zealously defend it among themselves.:highfive
:dogpat

[Michael The Disciple]

You’re a fool. Selah.

Proverbs 14:9

Fools make a mock at sin:

[Michael The Disciple]

ndavid

What does the Bible say about just a little leaven? Remember that verse?

Leavens the lump. So should we start truth by truth and find out where the leaven is located? We cannot admire truth in someone who has it? While contending against the error they may still hold?

After all I admire the truth that JA has preached about Acts 2:38 Do I need to throw out the baby with the bathwater? Or do you praise the good and fight the bad?

He didn't "fail" the move of God, he REJECTED it. And you still follow and defend them.

Reject or fail same thing. Do I follow them? No. I have never been to IHOP or spoken with anyone from their Church. I have watched their Church services online. If I were to meet any of them and had time to talk to them I would present to them the Oneness of God and Acts 2:38 as well as other truths they need. I do believe they have a better understanding of the truth of end time doctrine than 90% of modern Apostolics.

They also teach a more spiritual understanding of holiness, the sermon on the mount. And their music they do is now being done in....Apostolic Churches. Go figure!

So if I have promoted them here it was in those truths. In the hope more truth would be accepted.

Yes I love IHOP. There are spirit baptized people there and I want to see them come to perfection.

You do promote them by posting their music from Misty Edwards on here.

Then I also promote Steve Winter. Check the music forum.

Nonetheless I promote music that I think will bless people. IMO Misty is or was one of if not the best of all Christian singers I have known of since 1974.



The difference is I will call out where she is missing it as a Christian. If I saw her I would present more truth. Here people SEEM to be so carnal they fight to defend a sin so abominable to God as MAGIC and defend the one doing it.

Hey suppose Misty were looking into the Apostolic Faith. Suppose she might be seeking it out and came to Jeff Arnolds MONDAY MAGIC!

Having no or little knowledge of our doctrine she runs into one of its premiere teachers! And there he is with a group of kids teaching "sleight of hand" MAGIC. Remember HE CALLS IT MAGIC.

Can you imagine how let down she or someone from IHOP or really anyone seeking truth would be? She might go back to her friends and tell how she ALMOST was ready to accept Oneness doctrine but then discovered they have MAGICIANS AS BISHOPS IN THE CHURCH!

Get the point? Now my guess is that there would be VERY FEW Apostolic Pastors who think MAGIC MONDAY is ok. But when one seeking what Apostolics are about and this is what they run into they might get the idea THATS WHAT APOSTOLIC IS.

And run for their lives.

[Nicodemus1968]

ndavid



Leavens the lump. So should we start truth by truth and find out where the leaven is located? We cannot admire truth in someone who has it? While contending against the error they may still hold?

After all I admire the truth that JA has preached about Acts 2:38 Do I need to throw out the baby with the bathwater? Or do you praise the good and fight the bad?



Reject or fail same thing. Do I follow them? No. I have never been to IHOP or spoken with anyone from their Church. I have watched their Church services online. If I were to meet any of them and had time to talk to them I would present to them the Oneness of God and Acts 2:38 as well as other truths they need. I do believe they have a better understanding of the truth of end time doctrine than 90% of modern Apostolics.

They also teach a more spiritual understanding of holiness, the sermon on the mount. And their music they do is now being done in....Apostolic Churches. Go figure!

So if I have promoted them here it was in those truths. In the hope more truth would be accepted.

Yes I love IHOP. There are spirit baptized people there and I want to see them come to perfection.



Then I also promote Steve Winter. Check the music forum.

Nonetheless I promote music that I think will bless people. IMO Misty is or was one of if not the best of all Christian singers I have known of since 1974.



The difference is I will call out where she is missing it as a Christian. If I saw her I would present more truth. Here people SEEM to be so carnal they fight to defend a sin so abominable to God as MAGIC and defend the one doing it.

Hey suppose Misty were looking into the Apostolic Faith. Suppose she might be seeking it out and came to Jeff Arnolds MONDAY MAGIC!

Having no or little knowledge of our doctrine she runs into one of its premiere teachers! And there he is with a group of kids teaching "sleight of hand" MAGIC. Remember HE CALLS IT MAGIC.

Can you imagine how let down she or someone from IHOP or really anyone seeking truth would be? She might go back to her friends and tell how she ALMOST was ready to accept Oneness doctrine but then discovered they have MAGICIANS AS BISHOPS IN THE CHURCH!

Get the point? Now my guess is that there would be VERY FEW Apostolic Pastors who think MAGIC MONDAY is ok. But when one seeking what Apostolics are about and this is what they run into they might get the idea THATS WHAT APOSTOLIC IS.

And run for their lives.

Mike, what musicians are you talking about?

[n david]

Reject or fail same thing. We will disagree on this then. I believe a person rejecting God is an active and conscious choice on their part; while failing is less a deliberate act.

Do I follow them? No. I have never been to IHOP or spoken with anyone from their Church. I have watched their Church services online. If I were to meet any of them and had time to talk to them I would present to them the Oneness of God and Acts 2:38 as well as other truths they need. I do believe they have a better understanding of the truth of end time doctrine than 90% of modern Apostolics.
It's appeared from your posts over the years that you follow them. You certainly have posted about watching their live stream and have posted a lot of songs by Edwards over the years.

They also teach a more spiritual understanding of holiness, the sermon on the mount. And their music they do is now being done in....Apostolic Churches. Go figure!
I don't know of a single apostolic church that does songs by Misty Edwards. At least not the techno chanting songs I've seen posted here.

Hey suppose Misty were looking into the Apostolic Faith. Suppose she might be seeking it out and came to Jeff Arnolds MONDAY MAGIC!

Having no or little knowledge of our doctrine she runs into one of its premiere teachers! And there he is with a group of kids teaching "sleight of hand" MAGIC. Remember HE CALLS IT MAGIC.

Can you imagine how let down she or someone from IHOP or really anyone seeking truth would be? She might go back to her friends and tell how she ALMOST was ready to accept Oneness doctrine but then discovered they have MAGICIANS AS BISHOPS IN THE CHURCH!

Get the point? Now my guess is that there would be VERY FEW Apostolic Pastors who think MAGIC MONDAY is ok. But when one seeking what Apostolics are about and this is what they run into they might get the idea THATS WHAT APOSTOLIC IS.

And run for their lives.
:dogpat

[Bowas]

You do know, when you use one of these on a dry eraser board, and others couldn't see the board, but just you up there, waving you hands in such a manner, some could think you are wielding them like a magic wand.


Throw them away...NO...BURN THEM!!

6526

[Michael The Disciple]

Mike, what musicians are you talking about?

Misty Edwards and IHOP singers. There are many.

[Michael The Disciple]

We will disagree on this then. I believe a person rejecting God is an active and conscious choice on their part; while failing is less a deliberate act.

If you can say Mike B. has rejected God altogether what about Arnold? He is by his own ADMISSION teaching MAGIC in the Church. If thats is not rejecting the will of God I dont know what is.

Now it MAY BE that to reject an area of truth would be to altogether reject God. Only God knows where his cut off line is. But if we apply that across the board we might ask have some REJECTED GOD when they teach Jesus came and resurrected the saints from the dead and gathered the living saints and took them to Heaven in 70ad?

It's appeared from your posts over the years that you follow them. You certainly have posted about watching their live stream and have posted a lot of songs by Edwards over the years.

What is meant by "follow" them? I AGREE with them on several important points of which I have shared here myself. When I can point Apostolic people to more truth I will.

I was excited about them for a few years as I saw God working in their midst. It was during that time I put a few teaching links on the forum. Because of the attacks by some here I tried to explain what I liked about them and so I was branded as a "follower" of them.

I saw preachers there preach Acts 2:38. I saw something good happening there. It was taking off. Then Bickle stopped them. I noticed after that a loss of anointing. I mentioned it a while back on the forum. I still watch them once in a while because of the truth they DO have but not as much as before.

I believe there are many Spirit baptized people there. They need more truth.

That in no way excuses Apostolic Preachers entertaining their Churches with what...THEY....CALL....MAGIC. Its much worse in the sense that THEY are supposed to be great men of God well respected and praised in the movement. What signal does that send to outsiders seeking to understand our faith?

I don't know of a single apostolic church that does songs by Misty Edwards.

Probably not the hard hitting ones I have posted. However I have been connected to three UPC Churches in the recent years and all three of them have used some of the same praise and worship songs I have heard at IHOP.

[Esaias]

MTD, did you or do you still drink a lot of diet cokes (sodas) out of aluminum cans?

[Michael The Disciple]

MTD, did you or do you still drink a lot of diet cokes (sodas) out of aluminum cans?

Blessings.

[Esaias]

Blessings.

Thank you. It was a serious question, by the way. It's just something I've noticed over years of observing people and their habits.

[Pressing-On]

Wise Words from the Bishop! :thumbsup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLwcxl6-WAw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De8SnHZq5sk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3hbTjRHEvk

[Nicodemus1968]

Wise Words from the Bishop! :thumbsup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLwcxl6-WAw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De8SnHZq5sk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3hbTjRHEvk

You meant to say,
Wise Words from the Great Maloney.
LOL! I couldn’t resist, I’m just joking nobody get offended.

I agree with you by the way:thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

You meant to say,
Wise Words from the Great Maloney.
LOL! I couldn’t resist, I’m just joking nobody get offended.

I agree with you by the way:thumbsup

Lol! If you listen to him preach or teach, he rarely repeats himself. I think that is amazing.

[Bowas]

Lol! If you listen to him preach or teach, he rarely repeats himself. I think that is amazing.

A preacher that doesn't repeat? That is magic right there!

[Freeindeed]

If it is NOT MAGIC but he says it IS MAGIC what does that make him?

A liar? Or a deceiver? Its all in FUN!

We could NEVER be bewitched!

It's time this thread died. All you've done is repeat yourself over and over again.
:beatdeadhorse

[diakonos]

It's time this thread died. All you've done is repeat yourself over and over again.
:beatdeadhorse

Because he can’t answer questions... because he knows he’s being stupid

[Pressing-On]

It's time this thread died. All you've done is repeat yourself over and over again.
:beatdeadhorse

Lol! He studies his Bible for several hours, isn’t on social media and doesn’t read a lot of books. Perfect disciple of Jesus Christ, if you ask me. That is probably why he doesn’t repeat himself like others do.

[Pressing-On]

Because he can’t answer questions... because he knows he’s being stupid

Oh my gosh, you are so blunt! I love it! Hahahahaha ha!

[Pressing-On]

Has anyone listened to Brother Arnold’s last three videos? They are great! :thumbsup

[KeptByTheWord]

I listed to episode 1. He shares some very positive and encouraging insights!

[votivesoul]

So, is the issue with the actual content of his actions contained in the video, the different misdirections, and gestures, and playing with foam balls and kerchiefs, and etc., or is it that he uses the word "magic" in the title of the video?

I mean, if instead of "Magic Monday" it was called "Tomfoolery Tuesday" would this be an issue?

[Nicodemus1968]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3hbTjRHEvk

Just asking for understanding.

What’s that statue behind Bro. Arnold’s head?

[Michael The Disciple]

Just asking for understanding.

What’s that statue behind Bro. Arnold’s head?

Wow....good question.

[Nicodemus1968]

So, is the issue with the actual content of his actions contained in the video, the different misdirections, and gestures, and playing with foam balls and kerchiefs, and etc., or is it that he uses the word "magic" in the title of the video?

I mean, if instead of "Magic Monday" it was called "Tomfoolery Tuesday" would this be an issue?

I can speak for myself, and maybe a little on what people are feeling with this video.

I personally don't use magic, I teach my kids against magic, I teach the church against magic. One of the arguments that was posed here, was the fact that this isn't the "magic" of the bible, its not the demonic magic. Its simply an Elder getting up and posting a video for kids doing magic tricks. Like you said, gestures, foam balls, handkerchiefs, not much demonic activity with those things. Then there was the use of magic, and this is where my point came into being, a lot of people defended the elder stating he is not doing magic. I believe, I could be wrong they were doing that out of respect, if this were someone else, we may have a different story. Maybe, maybe not? With that last part, Bro. Arnold called it magic, either the Elder is confused, or he does recognize it for what it is, Magic. Now, I would agree that Bro. Arnold may think its just harmless magic, doing it for the entertainment for the kids. Thats where we could have a discussion, yet in their love for the elder, it becomes more of a defense mode rather than a discussion. Then, they believe MTD had a wrong motive in posting the video, so then there is the attacks on him.

Votivesoul, if your willing to have a discussion lets discuss it. Because I believe it is important to understand, is this is magic, is it harmless magic. Is it ok for our kids to be practicing this?

[Pressing-On]

He titles his videos “Illusions”. That is what all of this is, slight of hand.

[mfblume]

I said this before, but the use of the word MAGIC is obvious, and not what is being touted here by Arnold's detractors. Technically, magic is supernatural power that defies the laws of physics. It is not the supernatural power of God.

And when someone performs sleight of hand, and people do not know how they are doing it, then people would describe it as "magic" and quite supernatural. And they actually KNOW it is NOT technically any sort of MAGIC at all. So, sleight of hand that is made to appear as supernatural or made to appear as magic is the issue.

Everyone KNOWS it is not technically magic. But the word is used because it has the ILLUSION of being so. That's why it is called magic.

[Michael The Disciple]

So, is the issue with the actual content of his actions contained in the video, the different misdirections, and gestures, and playing with foam balls and kerchiefs, and etc., or is it that he uses the word "magic" in the title of the video?

I mean, if instead of "Magic Monday" it was called "Tomfoolery Tuesday" would this be an issue?

The issue is that an Apostolic or for that matter any supposed Spirit filled Church is rejoicing in MAGIC. At worst it is occultic at best it is trained deception.

I dont see it as "tomfoolery".

Not quite what is needed in a movement that is perceived as of the devil by its enemies in the first place. Giving them ammunition.

Why not FORNICATION FRIDAY and then just tell everyone fornication dont really mean fornication?

[Michael The Disciple]

I can speak for myself, and maybe a little on what people are feeling with this video.

I personally don't use magic, I teach my kids against magic, I teach the church against magic. One of the arguments that was posed here, was the fact that this isn't the "magic" of the bible, its not the demonic magic. Its simply an Elder getting up and posting a video for kids doing magic tricks. Like you said, gestures, foam balls, handkerchiefs, not much demonic activity with those things. Then there was the use of magic, and this is where my point came into being, a lot of people defended the elder stating he is not doing magic. I believe, I could be wrong they were doing that out of respect, if this were someone else, we may have a different story. Maybe, maybe not? With that last part, Bro. Arnold called it magic, either the Elder is confused, or he does recognize it for what it is, Magic. Now, I would agree that Bro. Arnold may think its just harmless magic, doing it for the entertainment for the kids. Thats where we could have a discussion, yet in their love for the elder, it becomes more of a defense mode rather than a discussion. Then, they believe MTD had a wrong motive in posting the video, so then there is the attacks on him.

Votivesoul, if your willing to have a discussion lets discuss it. Because I believe it is important to understand, is this is magic, is it harmless magic. Is it ok for our kids to be practicing this?

:highfive

[Michael The Disciple]

He titles his videos “Illusions”. That is what all of this is, slight of hand.

He titles His show MAGIC MONDAY.

[Michael The Disciple]

It may be there is so little in the way of supernatural power taking place in Churches they are contenting themselves with MAGIC or as some are calling it "sleight of hand".

They dont realize it as an open door for demons.

Adult Christians should spot this instantly. But introducing CHILDREN TO MAGIC is unthinkable.

[Michael The Disciple]

I said this before, but the use of the word MAGIC is obvious, and not what is being touted here by Arnold's detractors. Technically, magic is supernatural power that defies the laws of physics. It is not the supernatural power of God.

And when someone performs sleight of hand, and people do not know how they are doing it, then people would describe it as "magic" and quite supernatural. And they actually KNOW it is NOT technically any sort of MAGIC at all. So, sleight of hand that is made to appear as supernatural or made to appear as magic is the issue.

Everyone KNOWS it is not technically magic. But the word is used because it has the ILLUSION of being so. That's why it is called magic.

Simon the sorcerer was a MAGICIAN. You dont know what he was doing. We are told he BEWITCHED THEM with his sorceries or "magic".

People can be bewitched or "deceived" by tricks. They can think the man is doing great things even tho he is not. So DECEPTION has been accepted it would seem enjoyed.

[Pressing-On]

It may be there is so little in the way of supernatural power taking place in Churches they are contenting themselves with MAGIC or as some are calling it "sleight of hand".

They dont realize it as an open door for demons.

Adult Christians should spot this instantly. But introducing CHILDREN TO MAGIC is unthinkable.

I can see your point. It would be the same as some who argue - Teach a child to play cards and you might very well develop a gambler.

[aegsm76]

Simon the sorcerer was a MAGICIAN. You dont know what he was doing. We are told he BEWITCHED THEM with his sorceries or "magic".

People can be bewitched or "deceived" by tricks. They can think the man is doing great things even tho he is not. So DECEPTION has been accepted it would seem enjoyed.

MTD - preachers are sometimes known to "chase rabbits", but you are just straining at a gnat, here.

[Michael The Disciple]

MTD - preachers are sometimes known to "chase rabbits", but you are just straining at a gnat, here.

I sure hope this is just a small microcosim of the Apostolic Movement.

[Nicodemus1968]

It may be there is so little in the way of supernatural power taking place in Churches they are contenting themselves with MAGIC or as some are calling it "sleight of hand".

They dont realize it as an open door for demons.

Adult Christians should spot this instantly. But introducing CHILDREN TO MAGIC is unthinkable.

Mike, many people I know do not believe in open doors. Many Pentecostals believe you have to ask a demon to possess you, they don’t understand all a spirit needs is an open door. That’s why some Pentecostal/Apostolic’s have no problem watching horror movies, or “Christian” romance, wife’s can read romance books and believe it’s ok, because we don’t believe in open doors.

[mfblume]

Simon the sorcerer was a MAGICIAN. You dont know what he was doing. We are told he BEWITCHED THEM with his sorceries or "magic".

People can be bewitched or "deceived" by tricks. They can think the man is doing great things even tho he is not. So DECEPTION has been accepted it would seem enjoyed.

Yes, I do know what Simon used. It was supernatural power. He sought to purchase the power to lay hands on the disciples and see them Spirit-filled, since he was accustomed to buying the secrets of supernatural powers as he was using himself.

Yours is an effort to think the worse, and flatly violates 1 Cor 13. Saying use to the word MAGIC means it's as genuine demonic power. WOW!

Learn what bewitched means. It means to be cast under an actual supernatural spell of witchcraft.

It is not deception because everyone watching it knows it is sleight of hand. When one is made to think it is supernatural, then it is deception. Arnold deceived nobody.

Dude, you're touching God's anointed. Have fun with it.

[Nicodemus1968]

I said this before, but the use of the word MAGIC is obvious, and not what is being touted here by Arnold's detractors. Technically, magic is supernatural power that defies the laws of physics. It is not the supernatural power of God.

And when someone performs sleight of hand, and people do not know how they are doing it, then people would describe it as "magic" and quite supernatural. And they actually KNOW it is NOT technically any sort of MAGIC at all. So, sleight of hand that is made to appear as supernatural or made to appear as magic is the issue.

Everyone KNOWS it is not technically magic. But the word is used because it has the ILLUSION of being so. That's why it is called magic.

Demonic activity is based on deception/manipulation. That’s what magic is based on! We can’t base our solutions on how we feel, or this is how we think or believe. If the Bible says magic is demonic, then how would a spirit see magic, does it have to be the dark ark of demonic activity, or can it also be manipulated into being innocent? I heard a magician say he was given a dream, he followed the dream to the “T” and everyone was amazed because there truly was no way for him to perform that “trick” other than a force to help him. We say that’s demonic, yes that young man was possessed by a spirit, but it all started with card tricks. He saw the power to captivate a audience and allowed his spirit to go deeper into that activity. We need to understand open doors.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mike, many people I know do not believe in open doors. Many Pentecostals believe you have to ask a demon to possess you, they don’t understand all a spirit needs is an open door. That’s why some Pentecostal/Apostolic’s have no problem watching horror movies, or “Christian” romance, wife’s can read romance books and believe it’s ok, because we don’t believe in open doors.

Exactly!:highfive

[mfblume]

Demonic activity is based on deception/manipulation. That’s what magic is based on!

No, that is not true with the instance of the kind of "magic" that is only a play on terms in what is actually sleight of hand. The people would have to be thinkin' that Arnold is actually using supernatural power in what he is doing, and that is simply not the case. NO ONE is deceived in Arnold's presentation. They ALL KNOW the reality of it being sleight of hand. It's entertaining to see how someone could use sleight of hand, that's all. No one is deceived in the least. No one is manipulated into thinking he uses supernatural power in the least.

We can’t base our solutions on how we feel, or this is how we think or believe. If the Bible says magic is demonic, then how would a spirit see magic, does it have to be the dark ark of demonic activity, or can it also be manipulated into being innocent?

It has nothing to do with what we feel.

This is NOT magic, no matter who uses the term. And the kind of manipulative magic that deceives people into thinking it's innocent is STILL supernatural power, not sleight of hand, from people who are GENUINELY OPERATING SUPERNATURALLY.




I heard a magician say he was given a dream, he followed the dream to the “T” and everyone was amazed because there truly was no way for him to perform that “trick” other than a force to help him. We say that’s demonic, yes that young man was possessed by a spirit, but it all started with card tricks. He saw the power to captivate a audience and allowed his spirit to go deeper into that activity. We need to understand open doors.

Whether this leads some weak-minded person into actual supernatural powers, or not, does not change the fact that Arnold is NOT performing actual MAGIC, and that Arnold is NOT using demonic supernatural power instead of sleight of hand, as is being accused by some here. The example you gave is not the result of interest in sleight of hand, but actual seeking the supernatural while at it, to the extent that he was invaded by a devil who started to work through him with dreams.

Some nutcases get ticked off at working in a post office and shoot people. Does that mean working at a post office is a DOORWAY to murder?

For goodness' sake, Arnold SHOWS the kids how the tricks work. He is revealing the sleight of hand methods he used. Deception????

[diakonos]

It may be there is so little in the way of supernatural power taking place in Churches they are contenting themselves with MAGIC or as some are calling it "sleight of hand".

They dont realize it as an open door for demons.

Adult Christians should spot this instantly. But introducing CHILDREN TO MAGIC is unthinkable.

Little in the way of supernatural happening in churches??? What’s going on in your little trailer with your wife and dogs?

[diakonos]

Everyone KNOWS it is not technically magic. But the word is used because it has the ILLUSION of being so. That's why it is called magic.


No, not everyone knows. At least 2 on here believe it’s real magic.

[diakonos]

Simon the sorcerer was a MAGICIAN. You dont know what he was doing. We are told he BEWITCHED THEM with his sorceries or "magic".

People can be bewitched or "deceived" by tricks. They can think the man is doing great things even tho he is not. So DECEPTION has been accepted it would seem enjoyed.

Yeah, Simon was pulling rabbits out of his hat.

[mfblume]

Yeah, Simon was pulling rabbits out of his hat.

And Arnold is even SHOWING the kids HOW the sleight of hand is accomplished!

How deceitful!

[diakonos]

And Arnold is even SHOWING the kids HOW the sleight of hand is accomplished!

How deceitful!

Exactly. Something MTD purposely left out.

[Nicodemus1968]

No, not everyone knows. At least 2 on here believe it’s real magic.

It is real. It’s so real, Bro. Arnold has been doing it for many years, it’s not fake. Why would someone practice something that is fake? Would you practice air guitar for 10 years?

Whether these are harmless tricks, is based on your own belief. The Bible says to abstain from the very appearance of evil.

[Michael The Disciple]

Little in the way of supernatural happening in churches??? What’s going on in your little trailer with your wife and dogs?

If the supernatural Holy Spirit power was working the saints would FEAR to in ANY WAY to take away from the glory and majesty by allowing anything that IS CALLED MAGIC or works by deception to be a part of it.

Charles Parham himself disassociated himself from Azusa St. saying "hypnotists" had infiltrated.

THANK GOD I have experienced the reality of Gods power since the very beginning in 1974. Thats why I still keep pressing in to know him and love righteousness and hate iniquity.:highfive

Dia I dont know who you are but first off my wife and I serve God daily. Not just at a Church meeting. Second of all I have been attending UPC Church for several years. Whats your point?

Is it relevant if I live in a LITTLE TRAILER?

[Nicodemus1968]

And Arnold is even SHOWING the kids HOW the sleight of hand is accomplished!

How deceitful!

That doesn’t mean a thing.

I remember when church’s would dress up as bible characters on Halloween, I guess that’s ok, now. SMH

“Oh how the mighty are fallen...”

[mfblume]

It is real. It’s so real, Bro. Arnold has been doing it for many years, it’s not fake. Why would someone practice something that is fake? Would you practice air guitar for 10 years?

Whether these are harmless tricks, is based on your own belief. The Bible says to abstain from the very appearance of evil.

So you believe he is operating supernatural demonic power, too, and that it is not sleight of hand, but genuine supernatural power?

[mfblume]

That doesn’t mean a thing.


It means everything!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is sleight of hand. Hello?

[Michael The Disciple]

Explain to the Church children how there is a difference between "magic" and sleight of hand "tricks". Once you have explained it and shown they are two DISTINCT THINGS then take them to MAGIC MONDAY!

Watch "Bishop" as he does his MAGIC.

Think there might be some confusion there?

To Pentecostal children:

Sleight of hand "tricks" are good clean fun! "Magic" is evil. Now lets go to Church for MAGIC MONDAY!

[Michael The Disciple]

So you believe he is operating supernatural demonic power, too, and that it is not sleight of hand, but genuine supernatural power?

If he is not operating under the influence of an evil spirit he is teaching childern and adults that DECEPTION is ok. Just good clean fun!

[Nicodemus1968]

So you believe he is operating supernatural demonic power, too, and that it is not sleight of hand, but genuine supernatural power?

I already said, I love Bro. Arnold. I believe what he is doing he believes is innocent. I don’t believe that it is innocent. Do I believe he is operating in demonic spirit, no I don’t. I do believe it is an open door for a deeper deception.

Maybe you can figure this out. What is that demonic looking statue in back of Bro. Arnold in one of the videos pressing on posted?

[Ehud]

...

Maybe you can figure this out. What is that demonic looking statue in back of Bro. Arnold in one of the videos pressing on posted?

It looks to me like an Asian (Chinese or Mongol?) warrior on horseback.

[mfblume]

If he is not operating under the influence of an evil spirit he is teaching childern and adults that DECEPTION is ok. Just good clean fun!

If he is not? If?

SLEIGHT OF HAND. Say it with me -- SLEIGHT ... OF... HAND.

No "IF" about it. He's NOT.

Deception is okay, while he reveals how the trick is done and removes any doubt of deception?

Right. No deception is involved. He sis SHOWING how it works!

You're literally on a witch-hunt. For some reason you do not want it to be innocent. Any reasonable person knows sleight of hand, especially when it is REVEALED, is not deception nor magic. You're simply not being reasonable.

Now you guys are talking about a desktop figurine?

You watch WAAAY too much conpspiracy stories on youtube.

[mfblume]

Once again, I would not do such a thing in church at all. The only fault I see is using the word "magic," but not in the way you guys are attacking that use. It's the same WORD for actual evil power. I would not use the word at all. If he used the word "sleight-of-hand" alone and "illusion", that's a totally different ballgame. But that's where I stop.

But you guys went further than that, and implied he was opening doors to the occult for people and deceiving them, which is not true at all. That is simply dishonest of you. And MTD implied it was actual demonic power he used, which is incredibly dishonest.

[Nicodemus1968]

If he is not? If?

SLEIGHT OF HAND. Say it with me -- SLEIGHT ... OF... HAND.

No "IF" about it. He's NOT.

Deception is okay, while he reveals how the trick is done and removes any doubt of deception?

Right. No deception is involved. He sis SHOWING how it works!

You're literally on a witch-hunt. For some reason you do not want it to be innocent. Any reasonable person knows sleight of hand, especially when it is REVEALED, is not deception nor magic. You're simply not being reasonable.

Now you guys are talking about a desktop figurine?

You watch WAAAY too much conspiracy stories on youtube.

That ain’t true.

I believe in open doors, you obviously don’t.

Like so many, we can take performances that have demonic roots, and as long as we explain how we’re doing it, it’s no longer evil.

You know where the deception is, it’s not the full blown demoniac, it’s not the dark curious arts, it’s not the witch doctors, you can be spiritual as a duck and figure that out. It’s when something looks innocent, yet there is an evil appearance to it.

“Woe to them, that call good, evil, and evil, good.”

[diakonos]

Ridiculous

[mfblume]

That ain’t true.

I believe in open doors, you obviously don’t.

Like so many, we can take performances that have demonic roots, and as long as we explain how we’re doing it, it’s no longer evil.

You know where the deception is, it’s not the full blown demoniac, it’s not the dark curious arts, it’s not the witch doctors, you can be spiritual as a duck and figure that out. It’s when something looks innocent, yet there is an evil appearance to it.

“Woe to them, that call good, evil, and evil, good.”

Sorry, you're on a witch hunt.

I understand open doors, in the years I've cast devils out of people.

But you're being somewhat radical.

[Michael The Disciple]

Once again, I would not do such a thing in church at all. The only fault I see is using the word "magic," but not in the way you guys are attacking that use. It's the same WORD for actual evil power. I would not use the word at all. If he used the word "sleight-of-hand" alone and "illusion", that's a totally different ballgame. But that's where I stop.

But you guys went further than that, and implied he was opening doors to the occult for people and deceiving them, which is not true at all. That is simply dishonest of you. And MTD implied it was actual demonic power he used, which is incredibly dishonest.

Mike, why would you NOT do such a thing in Church?

If you cant see having MAGIC......NOT MY WORDS.....HIS in Church or anywhere as being an open door to the occult and demonic realm then todays Churches are even more shallow than I thought.

The "implication" you referred to, I said if he is not being INFLUENCED by demonic power.......

Yes I can see that clearly. Only satan would get a Bishop thinking to have MAGIC MONDAY in Church. Its a great victory for him.

I never said Arnold HAS a demon in his heart. But is he being INFLUENCED by the enemy? I believe so. Would Jesus influence one to be "sleight of hand" magic tricks to entertain HIS CHURCH?

It is true that one could be greatly used of God at points in their lives. Even living godly and holy. But if a door is opened to the enemy he will use it. It has happened to many great Preachers. It has happened to close friends of mine who were powerfully used.

The worse part is perhaps when they have such control of the peoples minds they JUSTIFY THE SIN!

[Esaias]

That ain’t true.

I believe in open doors, you obviously don’t.

Like so many, we can take performances that have demonic roots, and as long as we explain how we’re doing it, it’s no longer evil.

You know where the deception is, it’s not the full blown demoniac, it’s not the dark curious arts, it’s not the witch doctors, you can be spiritual as a duck and figure that out. It’s when something looks innocent, yet there is an evil appearance to it.

“Woe to them, that call good, evil, and evil, good.”

If I teach my dog tricks, is that an open door to the demonic?

One of the key "open doors" to the occult is superstitious thinking that finds an "open door" under nearly every rock.

A person doing tricks or optical illusions for the purpose of entertainment I do not see as an opening for demons, especially when neither the performer nor the audience is under any belief that anything paranormal is taking place. At most there may be a waste of time on superfluous entertainment as a career choice.

I certainly don't think parlour tricks belong in a church meeting UNLESS maybe it's part of an object lesson on the need for paying attention and not being distracted. Which could probably be accomplished by simply mentioning sleight of hand rather than trying to actually demonstrate it. I don't believe church and entertainment go together.

Now a stage magician using a bunch of occultic imagery as part of their routine I think is another thing altogether.

[Esaias]

The worse part is perhaps when they have such control of the peoples minds they JUSTIFY THE SIN!

You just will NOT answer serious Bible questions, will you?

Once again:

Where does the Bible say it is a SIN?

And, is JA doing what THE SCRIPTURE SAYS IS A SIN?

[mfblume]

Mike, why would you NOT do such a thing in Church?

If you cant see having MAGIC......NOT MY WORDS.....HIS in Church or anywhere as being an open door to the occult and demonic realm then todays Churches are even more shallow than I thought.

The "implication" you referred to, I said if he is not being INFLUENCED by demonic power.......

Yes I can see that clearly. Only satan would get a Bishop thinking to have MAGIC MONDAY in Church. Its a great victory for him.

I never said Arnold HAS a demon in his heart. But is he being INFLUENCED by the enemy? I believe so. Would Jesus influence one to be "sleight of hand" magic tricks to entertain HIS CHURCH?

It is true that one could be greatly used of God at points in their lives. Even living godly and holy. But if a door is opened to the enemy he will use it. It has happened to many great Preachers. It has happened to close friends of mine who were powerfully used.

The worse part is perhaps when they have such control of the peoples minds they JUSTIFY THE SIN!

Sorry, I want nothing to do with that kind of straining-at-a-gnat concept. When meanwhile you won't engage in actual bible discussion about eschatology about what you tout as THE truth more than anything else we hear you focus on in references to what churches you like.

[diakonos]

Sorry, I want nothing to do with that kind of straining-at-a-gnat concept. When meanwhile you won't engage in actual bible discussion about eschatology about what you tout as THE truth more than anything else we hear you focus on in references to what churches you like.

:thumbsup

[Jito463]

The Bible says to abstain from the very appearance of evil.

I could at least understand the mindset of someone making this claim, but MTD has virtually insisted that he's practicing ACTUAL magic, just because he used the word.

I agree with Bro. Blume. I wouldn't do this in church, either. Not because I believe it's a sin, but because I personally don't think it's appropriate. That said, I classify this under the category of personal conviction, not hellfire and damnation.

[Michael The Disciple]

I could at least understand the mindset of someone making this claim, but MTD has virtually insisted that he's practicing ACTUAL magic, just because he used the word.

I agree with Bro. Blume. I wouldn't do this in church, either. Not because I believe it's a sin, but because I personally don't think it's appropriate. That said, I classify this under the category of personal conviction, not hellfire and damnation.

I have said over and over.....Its not me saying he is doing MAGIC. It is HIM. If hes not doing MAGIC he should not be saying that he is. If he is not doing magic he is deceiving by saying he is.

If he wanted to not be associated with magic he could have called his MAGIC MONDAY show SLEIGHT SATURDAY or something of that effect.

That might still fall under investigation by some but when you call your show MAGIC MONDAY should people just twiddle their thumbs, whistle, and walk on by?

Would it be TRYING THE SPIRITS?

As far as personal conviction goes if one is working MAGIC its hell. If they are NOT working MAGIC why should they say they are?

[Michael The Disciple]

You just will NOT answer serious Bible questions, will you?

Once again:

Where does the Bible say it is a SIN?

And, is JA doing what THE SCRIPTURE SAYS IS A SIN?

What sin was Simon the sorcerer known for? Bar Jesus?

Bar Jesus was a sorcerer. What does that mean?

Strongs 3097.

A magician.

wizard, sorcerer, PRETENDER to magic powers, professor of witchcraft arts.

Simon the sorcerer.

Strongs 3096 from 3097.

To practice magic.

Looks like sin. Both these men were counted as sinners. They were magicians. Even PRETENDING to have magical powers is sin.

So why would a righteous man call his presentation MAGIC MONDAY? Would he not be associating himself with sin?

[Esaias]

What sin was Simon the sorcerer known for? Bar Jesus?

Bar Jesus was a sorcerer. What does that mean?

Strongs 3097.

A magician.

wizard, sorcerer, PRETENDER to magic powers, professor of witchcraft arts.

Simon the sorcerer.

Strongs 3096 from 3097.

To practice magic.

Looks like sin. Both these men were counted as sinners. They were magicians. Even PRETENDING to have magical powers is sin.

So why would a righteous man call his presentation MAGIC MONDAY? Would he not be associating himself with sin?

I am absolutely astounded that you can't just straight up answer the question. Not.

Why would a guy pretend to be a teacher in a position of judgment of another elder who refuses to lay out the BIBLE CHAPTER AND VERSE that clearly FORBIDS a particular action, and then also refuse to demonstrate that the accused is doing what is forbidden?

More importantly, why would anyone listen to him?

[Jito463]

I have said over and over.....Its not me saying he is doing MAGIC. It is HIM. If hes not doing MAGIC he should not be saying that he is. If he is not doing magic he is deceiving by saying he is.

If he wanted to not be associated with magic he could have called his MAGIC MONDAY show SLEIGHT SATURDAY or something of that effect.

That might still fall under investigation by some but when you call your show MAGIC MONDAY should people just twiddle their thumbs, whistle, and walk on by?

Would it be TRYING THE SPIRITS?

As far as personal conviction goes if one is working MAGIC its hell. If they are NOT working MAGIC why should they say they are?

https://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1891efc70c902372e739a445bb97ac59.png

[votivesoul]

I can speak for myself, and maybe a little on what people are feeling with this video.

I personally don't use magic, I teach my kids against magic, I teach the church against magic. One of the arguments that was posed here, was the fact that this isn't the "magic" of the bible, its not the demonic magic. Its simply an Elder getting up and posting a video for kids doing magic tricks. Like you said, gestures, foam balls, handkerchiefs, not much demonic activity with those things. Then there was the use of magic, and this is where my point came into being, a lot of people defended the elder stating he is not doing magic. I believe, I could be wrong they were doing that out of respect, if this were someone else, we may have a different story. Maybe, maybe not? With that last part, Bro. Arnold called it magic, either the Elder is confused, or he does recognize it for what it is, Magic. Now, I would agree that Bro. Arnold may think its just harmless magic, doing it for the entertainment for the kids. Thats where we could have a discussion, yet in their love for the elder, it becomes more of a defense mode rather than a discussion. Then, they believe MTD had a wrong motive in posting the video, so then there is the attacks on him.

Votivesoul, if your willing to have a discussion lets discuss it. Because I believe it is important to understand, is this is magic, is it harmless magic. Is it ok for our kids to be practicing this?

You've used a lot of words to not answer my question. Put aside a moment whatever else you think and believe. If he wasn't using the word magic, would you care?

[votivesoul]

The issue is that an Apostolic or for that matter any supposed Spirit filled Church is rejoicing in MAGIC. At worst it is occultic at best it is trained deception.

I dont see it as "tomfoolery".

Not quite what is needed in a movement that is perceived as of the devil by its enemies in the first place. Giving them ammunition.

Why not FORNICATION FRIDAY and then just tell everyone fornication dont really mean fornication?

So, is it the use of the word magic that bothers you?

Let us say you were watching videos of him like you said you were and you came upon the video in question like you said you did, but it didn't contain the word magic in the title? Would you still care about this as much, or at all?

[Bowas]

What sin was Simon the sorcerer known for? Bar Jesus?

Bar Jesus was a sorcerer. What does that mean?

Strongs 3097.

A magician.

wizard, sorcerer, PRETENDER to magic powers, professor of witchcraft arts.

Simon the sorcerer.

Strongs 3096 from 3097.

To practice magic.

Looks like sin. Both these men were counted as sinners. They were magicians. Even PRETENDING to have magical powers is sin.

So why would a righteous man call his presentation MAGIC MONDAY? Would he not be associating himself with sin?



Bro. You are the "pretender." You pretend you think Bro Arnold is really claiming to have actual magical powers. You know full good, he does not claim it, but seems you may need someone, something to attack to try to make yourself look, oh so righteous and holy, all while "pretending" your motives are honest and pure.

You are the pretender.

[Michael The Disciple]

I am absolutely astounded that you can't just straight up answer the question. Not.

Why would a guy pretend to be a teacher in a position of judgment of another elder who refuses to lay out the BIBLE CHAPTER AND VERSE that clearly FORBIDS a particular action, and then also refuse to demonstrate that the accused is doing what is forbidden?

More importantly, why would anyone listen to him?

In your blind rage you missed the answer. This is the attitude of some. They say you dont answer questions. You answer, they dont agree with the answer so they say you didnt answer. If you answer again they dont agree again. They say you dont answer questions. On it goes.

Apparently you dont understand that Simon the sorcerer and the false prophet Bar Jesus were both MARKED BY A CERTAIN SIN. It is called SORCERY. I posted the definition of the word as used for both of them.

I figured that with your wealth of Bible knowledge you were familiar with Simon and Bar Jesus and the nature of their sin.

Acts 8:9-11

9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

Acts 13:6

6And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:

So I have added the verses of who these men were and their sin. Can you see the scriptures are pointing out that sorcery is magic and magic is sin?

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
What sin was Simon the sorcerer known for? Bar Jesus?

Bar Jesus was a sorcerer. What does that mean?

Strongs 3097.

A magician.

wizard, sorcerer, PRETENDER to magic powers, professor of witchcraft arts.

Simon the sorcerer.

Strongs 3096 from 3097.

To practice magic.

Looks like sin. Both these men were counted as sinners. They were magicians. Even PRETENDING to have magical powers is sin.

So why would a righteous man call his presentation MAGIC MONDAY? Would he not be associating himself with sin?

So over and over again you ask is JA doing this. Over and over I keep answering HE SAYS HE IS DOING MAGIC. If he had not said so I would have never accused him of it. I am reacting to what HE SAYS he is doing.

If he is not doing magic why does he call his presentation MAGIC MONDAY?

How can we criticize Santa Claus and the Easter bunny and not criticize sorcerers whether they be PRETENDING to be doing magic or actually doing it?

[Michael The Disciple]

So, is it the use of the word magic that bothers you?

Let us say you were watching videos of him like you said you were and you came upon the video in question like you said you did, but it didn't contain the word magic in the title? Would you still care about this as much, or at all?

Well yes the word magic bothers me very much so especially when it is associated with some who is of high reputation among the Apostolic Movement. It is a word associated with demonic activity at worst and deception at the least.

If I had not seen him associating himself with "magic" I would have no reason at all to mention it. As to whether he is "pretending" to do it by sleight of hand deceptions even one PRETENDING to do this is counted as a magician by the Strongs definition.

I do a lot of outreach to Trinitarians and Arians. Many of them say "Apostolics" are deceived and of the devil. That tongues are just "deception".

Now can you imagine how much more difficult that makes what I do? If they find this Youtube or Facebook where a famous Apostolic Bishop is holding MAGIC MONDAY?

They would then associate ALL ONENESS including myself with magical demonic deception. They would be all the more convinced our faith is not only doctrinally false but morally demonic.

I would think this Bishop would be wise and consider these things. All the years in leadership roles in Pentecost and he puts this stumbling block out there for seekers to stumble over?

[Michael The Disciple]

Bro. You are the "pretender." You pretend you think Bro Arnold is really claiming to have actual magical powers. You know full good, he does not claim it, but seems you may need someone, something to attack to try to make yourself look, oh so righteous and holy, all while "pretending" your motives are honest and pure.

You are the pretender.

Since you are so discerning concerning my motives, only wanting someone to attack, would you explain to us Bishop Jeff Arnolds motives in holding MAGIC MONDAY?

Why would he do this to the Apostolic Movement? Whats in THE GREAT MALONEYS heart?

[Nicodemus1968]

You've used a lot of words to not answer my question. Put aside a moment whatever else you think and believe. If he wasn't using the word magic, would you care?


If he wasn't using the word magic, would you care?

He couldn’t do those tricks and not call it magic. So that question is null and void.

If you want to try create your own facebook show, call it “Play Time with Votivesoul” and don't even mention magic, or any word associated with it. And do the same tricks, and little kids will call it magic, why? Because thats what its is.

[diakonos]

Why would I do if I couldn’t defend my belief in a space suit wearing Logos and a UFO driving Satan.??! Hmm

[Bowas]

Since you are so discerning concerning my motives, only wanting someone to attack, would you explain to us Bishop Jeff Arnolds motives in holding MAGIC MONDAY?

Why would he do this to the Apostolic Movement? Whats in THE GREAT MALONEYS heart?

I don't need to discern your motives, as it is spilled in this thread for all to see. It seems it be you discerning Bro Arnolds motives, and you know full well, he is using the word generically, but you seem to want or need a boogeyman. You never responded to a point I made, when I asked if you ever told a joke, or tapped someone on the opposite shoulder from you, to make them turn and look, only to see no one there, except your deceptive, sleight of hand.

[Michael The Disciple]

I don't need to discern your motives, as it is spilled in this thread for all to see. It seems it be you discerning Bro Arnolds motives, and you know full well, he is using the word generically, but you seem to want or need a boogeyman. You never responded to a point I made, when I asked if you ever told a joke, or tapped someone on the opposite shoulder from you, to make them turn and look, only to see no one there, except your deceptive, sleight of hand.

So ONLY MY MOTIVES need to be judged. And you think you have rightly judged them. And a renowned Apostolic Bishop hosting MAGIC MONDAY is off limits. No wonder they say "Apostolics" are a cult.

[Michael The Disciple]

Why would I do if I couldn’t defend my belief in a space suit wearing Logos and a UFO driving Satan.??! Hmm

Its cool to distort and twist my beliefs. But its wrong to question the validity of Apostolics having MAGIC DAYS? I see.:highfive

[Michael The Disciple]

I don't need to discern your motives, as it is spilled in this thread for all to see. It seems it be you discerning Bro Arnolds motives, and you know full well, he is using the word generically, but you seem to want or need a boogeyman. You never responded to a point I made, when I asked if you ever told a joke, or tapped someone on the opposite shoulder from you, to make them turn and look, only to see no one there, except your deceptive, sleight of hand.

The answer is no I dont. As a sinner 46 years ago I did all those things plus read books on magic and the occult.

[diakonos]

Its cool to distort and twist my beliefs. But its wrong to question the validity of Apostolics having MAGIC DAYS? I see.:highfive

It’s wrong to accuse a man of God or practicing magic.

The cognitive dissonance is real with this one.

[Michael The Disciple]

It’s wrong to accuse a man of God or practicing magic.

The cognitive dissonance is real with this one.

I dont accuse him. He accuses HIMSELF. Remember?

[mfblume]

The answer is no I dont. As a sinner 46 years ago I did all those things plus read books on magic and the occult.

Now we see the motive behind this discussion. You have a past of these things and have become super-sensitive to them, and do what I feel is exaggerate something out of proportion due to it.

[mfblume]

If he wasn't using the word magic, would you care?

He couldn’t do those tricks and not call it magic. So that question is null and void.

If you want to try create your own facebook show, call it “Play Time with Votivesoul” and don't even mention magic, or any word associated with it. And do the same tricks, and little kids will call it magic, why? Because thats what its is.

You guys are over and over again missing the POINT that MAGIC is a play on words and thought since sleight of hand APPEARS as magic BUT IS NOT ACTUALLY MAGIC. And EVERYONE watching it KNOWS IT. Why can you not get that?

[Nicodemus1968]

You guys are over and over again missing the POINT that MAGIC is a play on words and thought since sleight of hand APPEARS as magic BUT IS NOT ACTUALLY MAGIC. And EVERYONE watching it KNOWS IT. Why can you not get that?

Mike,
You don’t see anything wrong unless it’s bold and in your face. I’m sorry that not the way the spirit realm works. The Bible says satan himself can transform into an angel of light. You and others obviously believe if it looks ok, if it sounds fine, the it must be good. I love Bro. Arnold, I don’t agree with his “Magic Monday” using another name for himself as the “Great Maloney” like he’s on stage performing magic tricks..... lol. I heard him before tell the audience it’s time for Hocus Pocus, I don’t agree with that. Yet, to sit here and go back and forth with you guys, it’s not magic, it’s this or that. With all due respect my 4 year old son will look at that and will call it for what it is. Bro. Arnold calls it what it is, and your telling me he’s wrong to call it that. LOL! Your the same crowd that will allow Mickey Mouse toys and figurines to be had by your children, now go and tell me what he started out as. You’ll say, No that’s not a real wizard, that’s just a cartoon. :thumbsup:heeheehee

[mfblume]

Mike,
You don’t see anything wrong unless it’s bold and in your face. I’m sorry that not the way the spirit realm works.

Forgive me if I do not accept your claim of expertise on the spirit realm.

The Bible says satan himself can transform into an angel of light. You and others obviously believe if it looks ok, if it sounds fine, the it must be good.

Sorry, an angel of light deceives. Arnold is not deceiving anyone. He is SHOWING them how the "tricks" work. I think someone else perhaps does not see anything wrong unless it is spelled out in black and white.

I love Bro. Arnold, I don’t agree with his “Magic Monday” using another name for himself as the “Great Maloney” like he’s on stage performing magic tricks..... lol. I heard him before tell the audience it’s time for Hocus Pocus, I don’t agree with that. Yet, to sit here and go back and forth with you guys, it’s not magic, it’s this or that. With all due respect my 4 year old son will look at that and will call it for what it is. Bro. Arnold calls it what it is, and your telling me he’s wrong to call it that. LOL! Your the same crowd that will allow Mickey Mouse toys and figurines to be had by your children, now go and tell me what he started out as. You’ll say, No that’s not a real wizard, that’s just a cartoon. :thumbsup:heeheehee

Now you are saying a mickey mouse toy is evil.

You overlook how the term is a play on words. You are unrighteously judging a man and that is serious stuff. Straining at gnats. I would am against using the word, while knowing magic is NOT what he is doing, and everyone KNOWS it, but just the association is something I do not like. But he is NOT using magic. And if you cannot accept that, I question your ability to reason.

With all due respect, a person could use some education above the level of a four-year-old child.

"Yes, son. It is supernatural power of satan that he is using. He says there is no real supernatural power, but it is because he used the word "MAGIC" that we know he is!"

Had you guys stopped with the idea of mere association by use of the word, and nothing more, then you'd have a case. But you went radical and overboard in a fleshly manner not discerning the actual picture by demanding that the mere use of the word means that the devil is involved.

[Esaias]

You guys are over and over again missing the POINT that MAGIC is a play on words and thought since sleight of hand APPEARS as magic BUT IS NOT ACTUALLY MAGIC. And EVERYONE watching it KNOWS IT. Why can you not get that?

Because they do not follow the Scripture, but instead follow their own intuitions and inspirations, which they think is God giving them spiritual insight the rest of us don't have. In other words, they are basically gnostics with secret and illuminated gnosis. This might be why one doesn't believe Jesus is a human being, and another believes Jesus is an incarnated spirit-suit created prior to the eons.

[votivesoul]

Well yes the word magic bothers me very much so especially when it is associated with some who is of high reputation among the Apostolic Movement. It is a word associated with demonic activity at worst and deception at the least.

If I had not seen him associating himself with "magic" I would have no reason at all to mention it. As to whether he is "pretending" to do it by sleight of hand deceptions even one PRETENDING to do this is counted as a magician by the Strongs definition.

I do a lot of outreach to Trinitarians and Arians. Many of them say "Apostolics" are deceived and of the devil. That tongues are just "deception".

Now can you imagine how much more difficult that makes what I do? If they find this Youtube or Facebook where a famous Apostolic Bishop is holding MAGIC MONDAY?

They would then associate ALL ONENESS including myself with magical demonic deception. They would be all the more convinced our faith is not only doctrinally false but morally demonic.

I would think this Bishop would be wise and consider these things. All the years in leadership roles in Pentecost and he puts this stumbling block out there for seekers to stumble over?

Thank you for responding. It seems then, that you are, and correct me if I am wrong, distancing the word magic from the actual behavior in the video. Is that the case? So that, if he had not used the word magic, you would have naught bad to say about him or what he does in the video?

Is that correct?

[votivesoul]

If he wasn't using the word magic, would you care?

He couldn’t do those tricks and not call it magic. So that question is null and void.

How is it impossible to do those hand maneuvers and not call it magic? Why can't it be called something else? Why must the things he did in the video be called magic?

When Industrial Lights and Magic, a division of Lucasfilm Corporation creates computer-generated images for films, and you are made to believe/can not discern any difference between what you see in the pics and real-life but are not, is that magic and deception just because the company that produces the virtual images uses the word magic in its name?

If you want to try create your own facebook show, call it “Play Time with Votivesoul” and don't even mention magic, or any word associated with it. And do the same tricks, and little kids will call it magic, why? Because thats what its is.

This is a nice assertion, but it's not offering any kind of proof. I doubt very much that little kids would call these things magic if they were not already preconditioned to do so.

It seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong, but anything that might be labeled a trick, to you, is magic. Is that right?

[Michael The Disciple]

Thank you for responding. It seems then, that you are, and correct me if I am wrong, distancing the word magic from the actual behavior in the video. Is that the case? So that, if he had not used the word magic, you would have naught bad to say about him or what he does in the video?

Is that correct?

I understand that in the video he is not doing demonic magic. But IMO that does not excuse what he IS DOING calling it MAGIC. It will hurt young people as they want to do these cool tricks and lead them into the occult.

Also it is using deception and thereby teaching them deception is ok at least in this realm. So it seems to me it has no place in the Church period. Now if someone does these "tricks" out of the Church they might say there doing it in "faith" as unto themselves and as long as they dont doubt they are not condemned.

If I could not persuade them that it is associated with magic-a sin before God and the gateway into it I suppose all I could say would be "thats between you and the Lord".

I feel JA is out of Gods will in this matter. Perhaps in every other area he is perfect. But not here.

[diakonos]

I don’t know one person that was into magic tricks as a kid who is now in the occult. Good. Grief.

[Freeindeed]

I don’t know one person that was into magic tricks as a kid who is now in the occult. Good. Grief.

Good point.

[Michael The Disciple]

Many "associate" having a beard with being a hippie, drug addict, homosexual and being in rebellion.

But when an APOSTOLIC BISHOP has a podcast called MAGIC MONDAY calling himself the GREAT MALONY they see NO PROBLEM there.

Yea it just fun and games!

Oh no association with evil there!

But Oh watch out for those evil beards!........Pitiful.

[Esaias]

As if IHOP is safer than parlour tricks.

[diakonos]

Many "associate" having a beard with being a hippie, drug addict, homosexual and being in rebellion.

But when an APOSTOLIC BISHOP has a podcast called MAGIC MONDAY calling himself the GREAT MALONY they see NO PROBLEM there.

Yea it just fun and games!

Oh no association with evil there!

But Oh watch out for those evil beards!........Pitiful.

This is really about beards.

[Michael The Disciple]

As if IHOP is safer than parlour tricks.

Where did that come from? Altho from what I can observe they seem more like disciples of Jesus than many "Apostolics".

Many Apostolics prize Church attendance and the "man of God" above a walk with Jesus.

This is certainly proof of that.

Enjoy MAGIC MONDAY! Deflect the carnal and shallow level of Apostolics who are fine with magic or deception, whichever it really might be.

Hit IHOP some more! Yea expose them!

[votivesoul]

Just asking for understanding.

What’s that statue behind Bro. Arnold’s head?

Wow....good question.

Guan Yu

https://previews.123rf.com/images/cinemagicx/cinemagicx1508/cinemagicx150800010/44002106-guan-yu-2-three-kingdoms.jpg

[votivesoul]

I understand that in the video he is not doing demonic magic.

If he is not doing demonic-based or demonic-led magic, is he transgressing the law of God, that is, is he sinning, in this regard?

But IMO that does not excuse what he IS DOING calling it MAGIC.

So, again, the issue is merely his choice of words. Doesn't this seem like an awful lot to come down on him for? A poor choice of words? Especially when the word used to describe the actions in no way actually describes and therefore validates the use of the word? He calls it magic. You admit he is not practicing magic, at least any kind of magic that would be tied to the demonic, and therefore to sorcery and therefore to wickedness and sin. So, at worst, it appears to be a mere misnomer, wouldn't you agree?

And if that is the case, again, isn't this an awful lot to come down on him for?

It will hurt young people as they want to do these cool tricks and lead them into the occult.

And how do you know it will hurt young people? Your choice of words offers us a guarantee that it will happen. How do you know for sure? Or are you assuming/making an educated guess?

Also it is using deception and thereby teaching them deception is ok at least in this realm. So it seems to me it has no place in the Church period.

Doesn't a person's motive and intent have to be taken into account? If I hear some info that isn't completely accurate and I pass it along to you, have I deceived you, or merely passed on some inaccurate information?

If JA calls what he is doing magic, even though it's not, as you admit, and if he shows how all the tricks are accomplished, and what's more, the ENTIRE AUDIENCE is already in on the trick--which is the whole point of the entertainment--I fail to see where the deception is, except for the minor misnomer already mentioned.

Now if someone does these "tricks" out of the Church they might say there doing it in "faith" as unto themselves and as long as they dont doubt they are not condemned.

What's the difference between doing them "out of the Church" or in? A saint is a saint is a saint, and a member of the Body of Christ, which is the Church, right? If it's wrong to do in or during or as a representation of the Church, wouldn't it be wrong to do these things in private?

If I could not persuade them that it is associated with magic-a sin before God and the gateway into it I suppose all I could say would be "thats between you and the Lord".

But you've already admitted that what he is doing isn't even (demonic) magic, so where's the association? Just because sometimes some things can be associated together, it doesn't follow that they have to be, or always are. Wine is associated with drunkenness, so should a member of the Body of Christ not drink wine as part of their communal love feast when they celebrate the Paschal Lamb of God?

By this token, if, as you mention, beards are sometimes by some people negatively associated with certain aspects of the cultural climate, it would be better to shave and not be so associated. Is that not right?

It seems to me, too many things can be associated with sin if one is looking to make those associations, even if they are otherwise unwarranted. Perhaps that is the case here?

I feel JA is out of Gods will in this matter. Perhaps in every other area he is perfect. But not here.

Have you contacted the Pentecostals of Gainesville and spoken with JA about your concern of him not being perfect before God in this matter, and so, out of the will of God?

If not, you can do so here:

http://gainesvilleupc.net/contact-us/

[Michael The Disciple]

Guan Yu

https://previews.123rf.com/images/cinemagicx/cinemagicx1508/cinemagicx150800010/44002106-guan-yu-2-three-kingdoms.jpg

Guan Yu

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Guandi

Chinese God.

Now we have a well renowned Apostolic Bishop teaching the Bible with an IDOL OF A CHINESE GOD sitting right behind him.

This is worse than I thought.

[Freeindeed]

Guan Yu

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Guandi

Chinese God.

Now we have a well renowned Apostolic Bishop teaching the Bible with an IDOL OF A CHINESE GOD sitting right behind him.

This is worse than I thought.


I'm beginning to understand why Brother Benincasa interacts with you the way that he does.

[Michael The Disciple]

I'm beginning to understand why Brother Benincasa interacts with you the way that he does.

No interest in the Chinese God/idol sitting behind the Great Maloney?

[Michael The Disciple]

Votiesoul,

My screen is messed up somehow. Very confusing. I cant reply to our discussion here. Sorry. Maybe it will correct itself later. In the meantime Im starting a new thread.

[Freeindeed]

Votiesoul,

My screen is messed up somehow. Very confusing. I cant reply to our discussion here. Sorry. Maybe it will correct itself later. In the meantime Im starting a new thread.

Since it appears that your computer is now functioning based on the new thread you started and the response to Diakonos on that thread, will you now respond to Votivesoul's post?

[Michael The Disciple]

Aaron

If he is not doing demonic-based or demonic-led magic, is he transgressing the law of God, that is, is he sinning, in this regard

He may not be practicing magic on the video. I also said I believe what he is doing is INFLUENCED by demons. An Apostolic Preacher doing what calls in the other video PRACTICING MAGIC to entertain children? And inspiring them to do the same?


[QUOTE]So, again, the issue is merely his choice of words. Doesn't this seem like an awful lot to come down on him for? A poor choice of words? Especially when the word used to describe the actions in no way actually describes and therefore validates the use of the word? He calls it magic. You admit he is not practicing magic, at least any kind of magic that would be tied to the demonic, and therefore to sorcery and therefore to wickedness and sin. So, at worst, it appears to be a mere misnomer, wouldn't you agree?

And if that is the case, again, isn't this an awful lot to come down on him for?

It is indeed a poor choice of words. But think what the words ARE. HE....not someone else says in the other video he is PRACTICING MAGIC. If magic is not a sin in scripture nothing is. His words tell us he TEACHES MAGICIANS! I would think Christians would be blown away by such an admission.

He is not a novice in Gods word. Why would HE say he is practicing magic?

And how do you know it will hurt young people? Your choice of words offers us a guarantee that it will happen. How do you know for sure? Or are you assuming/making an educated guess?

At best "sleight of hand" denotes DECEPTION. He practices the art of deception. If one makes sport of deception I dont trust them. The "kids" he is entertaining may be mostly over 50 years old according to the other video. He is teaching them all that deception is fine fun. My choice of words is based on the fact he calls himself a MAGICIAN which is sin. Why would he want children to do what he is doing? If nothing else it hurts people because they are taught that to deceive is cool.

Doesn't a person's motive and intent have to be taken into account? If I hear some info that isn't completely accurate and I pass it along to you, have I deceived you, or merely passed on some inaccurate information?

Totally different. Motive and intent are very important. And thats why I believe this game is very dangerous. This man is supposed to be a great man of God. Maybe he was. But WHY...WHY...WHY does he openly say he PRACTICES MAGIC?

If he is just a deceiving trickster why not say that? But he says he PRACTICES MAGIC. Words matter. He knows what magic is. Hes a smart man.

If JA calls what he is doing magic, even though it's not, as you admit, and if he shows how all the tricks are accomplished, and what's more, the ENTIRE AUDIENCE is already in on the trick--which is the whole point of the entertainment--I fail to see where the deception is, except for the minor misnomer already mentioned.

If he says he is PRACTICING MAGIC and he is NOT what does that make
him? He tells them the trick. That means he is teaching them that deception is cool. Is that what we want in an Apostolic Bishop? Is that what we want Christians to find joy in?

What's the difference between doing them "out of the Church" or in? A saint is a saint is a saint, and a member of the Body of Christ, which is the Church, right? If it's wrong to do in or during or as a representation of the Church, wouldn't it be wrong to do these things in private?

I never said it wasnt wrong. I said they might use what Paul said about eating foods or keeping special days to justify practicing magic. I think I said if after warning them they wanted to do it I would say "thats between you and the Lord".

But you've already admitted that what he is doing isn't even (demonic) magic, so where's the association? Just because sometimes some things can be associated together, it doesn't follow that they have to be, or always are. Wine is associated with drunkenness, so should a member of the Body of Christ not drink wine as part of their communal love feast when they celebrate the Paschal Lamb of God?

[QUOTE]
But you've already admitted that what he is doing isn't even (demonic) magic, so where's the association? Just because sometimes some things can be associated together, it doesn't follow that they have to be, or always are. Wine is associated with drunkenness, so should a member of the Body of Christ not drink wine as part of their communal love feast when they celebrate the Paschal Lamb of God?[/QUOT



You cant see the association even tho he says he is practicing magic? And now thanks to Nicodemus and you we can see the association in his life between magic AND IDOLTARY.

[QUOTE]Have you contacted the Pentecostals of Gainesville and spoken with JA about your concern of him not being perfect before God in this matter, and so, out of the will of God?

I noticed the comments were blocked in Youtube in Illusions With Bro. Arnold. So you suppose that not one Apostolic Christian has ever tried talking to him about this?

I will do the e mail. Do you think it will reach him? Edit....I dont see an email there but I will call the phone number.

I am having an issue in this thread posting. After I clicked on the IDOL IMAGE the formatting became to big. Please put further discussion on the other thread.

[Esaias]

Your screen is messed up and won't let you answer his question, but it WILL let you start a new thread where you can pretend to forget about MY question?

Ah HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

This is "the dog ate my homework" level of silliness.

[Bowas]

Your screen is messed up and won't let you answer his question, but it WILL let you start a new thread where you can pretend to forget about MY question?

Ah HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

This is "the dog ate my homework" level of silliness.



LOL