A covid forum?

[mfblume]

The apostolic covid forum needs to get back to praising Jesus.

Look at the list of threads today. Hoooboy!!!!

We can talk about so much that the devil doing in the world that we forget that, hey, we're supposed to be praising Jesus around here.

[Baggettcindy]

I think becuz COVID has really had a huge impact

[Michael The Disciple]

MikeB,

Just start threads that interest you or that you think would interest others. Others will do the same.

[Pressing-On]

Excellent message! No weapon formed against thee shall prosper!

https://youtu.be/9_lI3txL2ao

[Pressing-On]

I found out God’s love AFTER I was saved, by making mistakes and being forgiven. That is a powerful message to me. He stood by my side and lead me out of my mistakes by His Spirit. It was the most beautiful experience next to being baptized and filled with His Spirit!

We have MUCH to be thankful for and MUCH to look forward to!

[mfblume]

I found out God’s love AFTER I was saved, by making mistakes and being forgiven. That is a powerful message to me. He stood by my side and lead me out of my mistakes by His Spirit. It was the most beautiful experience next to being baptized and filled with His Spirit!

We have MUCH to be thankful for and MUCH to look forward to!

Amen!!

[KeptByTheWord]

The apostolic covid forum needs to get back to praising Jesus.

Look at the list of threads today. Hoooboy!!!!

We can talk about so much that the devil doing in the world that we forget that, hey, we're supposed to be praising Jesus around here.

Indeed. It's very sad, but true. Appreciate your balanced approach to this whole thing! :thumbsup

[Freeindeed]

I found out God’s love AFTER I was saved, by making mistakes and being forgiven. That is a powerful message to me. He stood by my side and lead me out of my mistakes by His Spirit. It was the most beautiful experience next to being baptized and filled with His Spirit!

We have MUCH to be thankful for and MUCH to look forward to!

We hear many times about the revelation of the oneness of God which is important, but a revelation of God's love for us is just as important.

I am thankful that His love is unfailing. There are many things and people who will fail me, but God's love will never fail me.

I am thankful that His love, just like His grace and mercy isn't dependent on anything that I do or not do. He freely gives me these gifts from His heart.

[mfblume]

I was amazed and blessed by Paul's understanding of Psalm 8 as we read in the first two chapters of Hebrews! ...talk about His love!

What's so powerful is that Jews in Paul's day were backsliding away from Jesus because other Jews were convincing them that Jesus is not the Messiah, and they argued that the Messiah is not God and neither would He die, especially, or be made so low as to be born in s stable, let alone be born as a man!

They understand all the prophecies of Messiah such as all the things that make him greater than angels, but even Jesus stumped them when He told them of Psalm 110:1. They knew that was a prophecy of Messiah. God tell the Messiah to sit at his right hand til he makes his enemies his footstool. And they knew Messiah was son of David. So, Jesus asked them why David called his son "my Lord" if he was David's Son?

So Paul also stated that the Psalm 8 statement that asks, "What is man that thou art mindful of him and the son of man that thou remberest him?" was about Messiah. It talks about putting all beneath Messiah's feet, like Psalm 110:1 did!

But Paul said VISITING man and being made LOWER THAN ANGELS shows us the Oneness of God and deity of Jesus as well as explains His love for us.

More later when time permits.

[Michael The Disciple]

We hear many times about the revelation of the oneness of God which is important, but a revelation of God's love for us is just as important.

I am thankful that His love is unfailing. There are many things and people who will fail me, but God's love will never fail me.

I am thankful that His love, just like His grace and mercy isn't dependent on anything that I do or not do. He freely gives me these gifts from His heart.

How is the bolded not osas? Or is that what you believe?

[mfblume]

How is the bolded not osas? Or is that what you believe?

Not doing any work to receive grace and mercy is not OSAS. OSAS is you cannot lose salvation no matter what sin you commit.

[Michael The Disciple]

Not doing any work to receive grace and mercy is not OSAS. OSAS is you cannot lose salvation no matter what sin you commit.

Here is what I refer to.

I am thankful that His love, just like His grace and mercy isn't dependent on anything that I do or not do.

Jesus said his love IS dependent on something we do.

John 15:10

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus love is conditional.

Is grace dependent on anything we do?

James 4:6

6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

It seems that to receive grace there is something we must do.

So to believe or teach Gods love and grace is not dependent on anything we do would be overgeneralizing would it not?

And if it were true that his love and grace were in no way dependent on what we do then osas doctrine would obviously be true.

[mfblume]

Here is what I refer to.



Jesus said his love IS dependent on something we do.

John 15:10

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus love is conditional.

Is grace dependent on anything we do?

James 4:6

6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

It seems that to receive grace there is something we must do.

So to believe or teach Gods love and grace is not dependent on anything we do would be overgeneralizing would it not?

And if it were true that his love and grace were in no way dependent on what we do then osas doctrine would obviously be true.

But what has that got to do with never losing salvation? People can believe what the original poster said, and not believe they cannot lose salvation.

"Abiding in his love" is indwelling that life in a life lived for Him by doing His will. ABIDING makes a difference. He did not stay RECEIVING HIS LOVE. He loved us when we were sinners, so there is nothing we did to get that love to begin with. Jesus was speaking about REMAINING in his love by serving Him.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus was talking like this...

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[Michael The Disciple]

"Abiding in his love" is indwelling that life in a life lived for Him by doing His will. ABIDING makes a difference. He did not stay RECEIVING HIS LOVE. He loved us when we were sinners, so there is nothing we did to get that love to begin with. Jesus was speaking about REMAINING in his love by serving Him.

The simple point is that Jesus said his love for us is dependent on if we keep his commands. The poster inferred his love is NOT dependent on anything we do or dont.

As to his grace James taught us there IS something we can do to get grace. Humble ourselves.

[mfblume]

The simple point is that Jesus said his love for us is dependent on if we keep his commands. The poster inferred his love is NOT dependent on anything we do or dont.

As to his grace James taught us there IS something we can do to get grace. Humble ourselves.

How did God love us when we were sinners if HIs love is dependent on keeping his commandments?

[Michael The Disciple]

How did God love us when we were sinners if HIs love is dependent on keeping his commandments?

Here is the quote I am questioning.

I am thankful that His love, just like His grace and mercy isn't dependent on anything that I do or not do.

The OP was apparently speaking from the perspective of one who is a Christian. God loves the sinner in a general sense. It is not expected they would have been keeping his word.

If the original post were speaking from that perspective it would be a different story. If I misunderstood and the original post was not intended for the saved but the lost I will simply leave the discussion.

But if they meant what it seems they meant how can you read John 15:10 and not understand what Jesus is saying? Or James 4:6 and not understand what James is saying?

[diakonos]

How is the bolded not osas? Or is that what you believe?

God loves you based on merit? Then you will burn in hell. Selah.

[Pressing-On]

Here is what I refer to.



Jesus said his love IS dependent on something we do.

John 15:10

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus love is conditional.

Is grace dependent on anything we do?

James 4:6

6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

It seems that to receive grace there is something we must do.

So to believe or teach Gods love and grace is not dependent on anything we do would be overgeneralizing would it not?

And if it were true that his love and grace were in no way dependent on what we do then osas doctrine would obviously be true.

I read John 15:10 as OUR love is conditional. If we love Him, we will keep His Commandments.

After all, the Word says - “WHO shall separate us from the love of Christ?...Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

2 Timothy speaks further - “If WE believe not, yet HE abide faithful: HE cannot deny himself.”


It is nothing lacking in Him, it is what is lacking in us.

[diakonos]

I read John 15:10 as OUR love is conditional. If we love Him, we will keep His Commandments.

After all, the Word says - “WHO shall separate us from the love of Christ?...Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

2 Timothy speaks further - “If WE believe not, yet HE abide faithful: HE cannot deny himself.”


It is nothing lacking in Him, it is what is lacking in us.

Preach! :hanky

I mean... Idk... :happydance

[Michael The Disciple]

God loves you based on merit? Then you will burn in hell. Selah.

Who said this? What does it mean?

John 15:10

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

[Pressing-On]

Preach! :hanky

I mean... Idk... :happydance

:hanky

[Michael The Disciple]

I read John 15:10 as OUR love is conditional. If we love Him, we will keep His Commandments.

After all, the Word says - “WHO shall separate us from the love of Christ?...Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

2 Timothy speaks further - “If WE believe not, yet HE abide faithful: HE cannot deny himself.”


It is nothing lacking in Him, it is what is lacking in us.

But Jesus said "if you keep my commandments ye shall abide in MY LOVE."

So if one does NOT keep his commandments they will NOT abide in his love.

The verse in Romans 8 says nothing about sin not separating us from the love of God.

How about the rest of what Paul wrote to Tim?

2 Tim. 2:12

If we suffer we shall also with him: if we deny him he also will deny us.

You seem to believe the same thing as osas. How is a doctrine like this different than it?

[Pressing-On]

But Jesus said "if you keep my commandments ye shall abide in MY LOVE."

So if one does NOT keep his commandments they will NOT abide in his love.

Doesn’t He say, “If you love ME, keep my commandments.”?



The verse in Romans 8 says nothing about sin not separating us from the love of God.

How about the rest of what Paul wrote to Tim?

2 Tim. 2:12

If we suffer we shall also with him: if we deny him he also will deny us.

You seem to believe the same thing as osas. How is a doctrine like this different than it?

2 Timothy doesn’t mean He doesn’t love us. It is conditional upon our part alone.

For instance, 1 John 2:24 “ So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father.”

I see Him give and give as long as we take and hold fast our profession.

It is always a condition placed on us. He never wavers. No OSAS here.

[mfblume]

I read John 15:10 as OUR love is conditional. If we love Him, we will keep His Commandments.

After all, the Word says - “WHO shall separate us from the love of Christ?...Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

2 Timothy speaks further - “If WE believe not, yet HE abide faithful: HE cannot deny himself.”


It is nothing lacking in Him, it is what is lacking in us.

I agree.

MTD, this is what Jesus meant in the verse you referenced.

[Michael The Disciple]

Doesn’t He say, “If you love ME, keep my commandments.”?

Yes. But we know he ALSO said:

"If you keep my commandments ye shall abide in MY LOVE."

For instance, 1 John 2:24 “ So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father.”

This seems to be saying he will not have fellowship with you if you dont remain faithful.

Look at this saying.

I am thankful that His love, just like His grace and mercy isn't dependent on anything that I do or not do.

This is what I question.

Did James say Gods grace was dependent on anything we do? Or does what we do hinder it? Does he give grace to the proud? Despite the fact they are proud?

James 4:6

6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Is there anything we can do to get grace from God? Or does he give it unconditionally?

What did Peter say?

1 Peter 5:5

5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Looks like the same thing James said doesnt it?

IF.....we will humble ourselves he will give grace? If we do not will he still give grace? OR WILL HE RESIST US?

My point is that God does not just give love and grace unconditionally.

Thats not to say he is not longsuffering and kind willing to show mercy. But the Church world is full of the teaching that God gives his love and grace without condition.

A doctrine that is taught as foundational in the Evangelical/Protestant world. It seems to be getting firmly entrenched among the Apostolics as well.

[Pressing-On]

Yes. But we know he ALSO said:

"If you keep my commandments ye shall abide in MY LOVE."



This seems to be saying he will not have fellowship with you if you dont remain faithful.

Look at this saying.



This is what I question.

Did James say Gods grace was dependent on anything we do? Or does what we do hinder it? Does he give grace to the proud? Despite the fact they are proud?

James 4:6

6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Is there anything we can do to get grace from God? Or does he give it unconditionally?

What did Peter say?

1 Peter 5:5

5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Looks like the same thing James said doesnt it?

IF.....we will humble ourselves he will give grace? If we do not will he still give grace? OR WILL HE RESIST US?

My point is that God does not just give love and grace unconditionally.

Thats not to say he is not longsuffering and kind willing to show mercy. But the Church world is full of the teaching that God gives his love and grace without condition.

A doctrine that is taught as foundational in the Evangelical/Protestant world. It seems to be getting firmly entrenched among the Apostolics as well.

So, I don’t view these passage aspects as something He dangles in front of us. I view them as something He offers, unconditionally on His part, but the conditional being always on our part.

IOW, God IS Love. Regardless whether we accept His grace, mercy, love or Gospel, it never changes who He is or what He has to offer.

I think of the Israelites who, the moment they repented, He was there. Of course, our negative actions will cause us to reap what we have sowed, but His love and faithfulness will see us through even that.

Again, it appears any conditionality depends on what we really want. Our being proud is a condition on our part. If we can’t deal with that type of human being, can God if they remain willing proud?

[mfblume]

Doesn’t He say, “If you love ME, keep my commandments.”
Yes. But we know he ALSO said:

"If you keep my commandments ye shall abide in MY LOVE."

But that's only rephrasing what Pressing On just said!

Abiding in someone's LOVE is BEING in love with them.

This is another example of the KJV English throwing someone off. Abiding in his love MEANS being in love with someone.

[Michael The Disciple]

So, I don’t view these passage aspects as something He dangles in front of us. I view them as something He offers, unconditionally on His part, but the conditional being always on our part.

IOW, God IS Love. Regardless whether we accept His grace, mercy, love or Gospel, it never changes who He is or what He has to offer.

I think of the Israelites who, the moment they repented, He was there. Of course, our negative actions will cause us to reap what we have sowed, but His love and faithfulness will see us through even that.

Well he is Love. He is also a consuming fire. He doesnt change who he is but he changes what he has to offer depending on what WE DO.

Let us go back to the saying in question.

I am thankful that His love, just like His grace and mercy isn't dependent on anything that I do or not do.

Compare that statement to this scriptural statement.

Heb. 10:26-31

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth sins, no more sacrifice for sin 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

How does this scriptural statement compare to this saying?

I am thankful that His love, just like His grace and mercy isn't dependent on anything that I do or not do.

[Esaias]

But that's only rephrasing what Pressing On just said!

Abiding in someone's LOVE is BEING in love with them.

This is another example of the KJV English throwing someone off. Abiding in his love MEANS being in love with someone.

We interrupt this program for an alert from the Emergency Doom and Gloom Broadcast System. Please stand by.

Abiding in His love means dwelling in His love. The love is owned by Him, it is HIS love, not our love. Our love originates from us and is directed toward Him. His love originates from Him and is directed toward us. If we keep His commandments, we will abide (dwell, remain) in His love. If we do NOT keep His commandments we will NOT abide (dwell, remain) in His love.

Just like a man tells his child "if you follow my rules you will abide in my house", meaning if the child does NOT follow the father's rules the child will not be living in the father's house.

There is nothing wrong with the correct and well-nigh perfect grammar of the KJV. There IS something wrong with incorrect theology and exegesis. Abiding in God's love does not mean grammatically the same as "being in love with God". It means exactly what it says: remaining in the love of God. Not our love for Him, but HIS love. Breaking His commandments removes a person from His love.

And "love" here is NOT AT ALL anything remotely close to "being in love". Being in love is a completely modern term referring to a combination of affection and sexual attraction. God's love is not some sappy boy-meets-girl style emotion. God's love is defined right here:

John 3:16 KJV
For God so loved the world,emoat he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God SO loved.... That does not say "loved the world so much that". It is says God SO loved the world that... The word "so" means "in this manner". It does NOT indicate a degree or amount, but a manner or mechanism. How did God love? He loved by giving the Son. God's love is not a mere emotion or feeling. It is an ACTION.

Our love toward Him is likewise:

John 14:21 KJV
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23-24 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. [24] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

God's love toward us is not manifested by feelings of "being in love". It is manifested by the blessings of grace and the gospel found in Christ. Our love towards God is not manifested in feelings of "being in love". It is manifested by our obedience to His instructions. Feelings are ultimately irrelevent to the subject.

Christianity has largely been polluted into an effeminate feelings based sappy sloppy-agape pietism focused on personal emotional catharsis. It is the fruit of Jezebel, the way of Balaam, it is the hallmark of Canaanite Baal worship. It is why Christianity has had practically zero impact on the world at large for about the last 50 years or so. It has become something for children, and silly women laden with sins led away by various lusts, and the fluffy-socks-wearing weak little manlets who are for all practical purposes spiritual catamites, who are all about "feeling love for God" while they refuse to actually love God Biblically. They worship their form of worship instead of worshipping God. They are "in love" with the idea of being "in love" but don't actually love the one they pretend to be "in love" with.

Their religion is bhakti yoga, emotional cathartic devotion to an object of affection, without much regard to what God Himself actually says on the subject (or any subject, actually). And all bhakti yoga is ultimately devotion to the "divine" Self masquerading as an external object or "god" or Teacher. Which means this type of Baal religion is idolatry of the self masquerading as devotion to "Jesus". A "Jesus" in one's own image and likeness. Your own... personal... Jesus... Someone who's there... Someone who cares...

Society has been turned into a mob of hysterical women regardless of their biological gender lookin for love in all the wrong places. And that's why tv preachers make phat cash on gullible hurting people. And that's why all of society, from the White House to the pepsi ads to the pulpits to the schools to the HR department to Hellyweird ALL teach everyone - men, women, boys, girls, and "others" - to be needy hurting emotional affection- and attention- starved desperate saps. Easily controlled, easily manipulated, easily merchandised (2 Peter 2:1-3).

But the one who LOVES GOD in the good old Bible way is one who isn't led or ruled by feelings, but by Thus Saith The LORD as it is written. :thumbsup

This concludes the Emergency Doom and Gloom System alert. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[n david]

He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;

[KeptByTheWord]

I found out God’s love AFTER I was saved, by making mistakes and being forgiven. That is a powerful message to me. He stood by my side and lead me out of my mistakes by His Spirit. It was the most beautiful experience next to being baptized and filled with His Spirit!

We have MUCH to be thankful for and MUCH to look forward to!

Oh how He loves us! His grace, mercy and compassion are new every day. Thank you for sharing how His love was there for you in your hour of need, and how precious that experience was!

[KeptByTheWord]

He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;

So if you reconcile these two statements, it could read like this:

He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High and if he keeps my commandments, he shall abide in my love under the shadow of the Almighty.

I think the above does pretty succinctly sum up just what we are trying to say here. This is not OSAS, but rather His love is a constant (thanks PO for bringing that out so well!).

Our love for Him, however, need to be shown to Him both by works and obedience, and when in obedience, His great love is shown to us working through us in mighty ways.

[Pressing-On]

So if you reconcile these two statements, it could read like this:

He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High and if he keeps my commandments, he shall abide in my love under the shadow of the Almighty.

I think the above does pretty succinctly sum up just what we are trying to say here. This is not OSAS, but rather His love is a constant (thanks PO for bringing that out so well!).

Our love for Him, however, need to be shown to Him both by works and obedience, and when in obedience, His great love is shown to us working through us in mighty ways.

This very true. :thumbsup

He is a God that does not change. Malachi 3:6 & James 1:17.

If He had need of being changed, He wouldn’t be perfect.

We are the ones that can change. It is our works and obedience that is important. He stands on His promises to us, just like He did the Israelites in Deuteronomy 28.

[mfblume]

We interrupt this program for an alert from the Emergency Doom and Gloom Broadcast System. Please stand by.

Abiding in His love means dwelling in His love. The love is owned by Him, it is HIS love, not our love. Our love originates from us and is directed toward Him. His love originates from Him and is directed toward us. If we keep His commandments, we will abide (dwell, remain) in His love. If we do NOT keep His commandments we will NOT abide (dwell, remain) in His love.

Just like a man tells his child "if you follow my rules you will abide in my house", meaning if the child does NOT follow the father's rules the child will not be living in the father's house.

There is nothing wrong with the correct and well-nigh perfect grammar of the KJV. There IS something wrong with incorrect theology and exegesis. Abiding in God's love does not mean grammatically the same as "being in love with God". It means exactly what it says: remaining in the love of God. Not our love for Him, but HIS love. Breaking His commandments removes a person from His love.

And "love" here is NOT AT ALL anything remotely close to "being in love". Being in love is a completely modern term referring to a combination of affection and sexual attraction. God's love is not some sappy boy-meets-girl style emotion. God's love is defined right here:

John 3:16 KJV
For God so loved the world,emoat he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God SO loved.... That does not say "loved the world so much that". It is says God SO loved the world that... The word "so" means "in this manner". It does NOT indicate a degree or amount, but a manner or mechanism. How did God love? He loved by giving the Son. God's love is not a mere emotion or feeling. It is an ACTION.

Our love toward Him is likewise:

John 14:21 KJV
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23-24 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. [24] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

God's love toward us is not manifested by feelings of "being in love". It is manifested by the blessings of grace and the gospel found in Christ. Our love towards God is not manifested in feelings of "being in love". It is manifested by our obedience to His instructions. Feelings are ultimately irrelevent to the subject.

Christianity has largely been polluted into an effeminate feelings based sappy sloppy-agape pietism focused on personal emotional catharsis. It is the fruit of Jezebel, the way of Balaam, it is the hallmark of Canaanite Baal worship. It is why Christianity has had practically zero impact on the world at large for about the last 50 years or so. It has become something for children, and silly women laden with sins led away by various lusts, and the fluffy-socks-wearing weak little manlets who are for all practical purposes spiritual catamites, who are all about "feeling love for God" while they refuse to actually love God Biblically. They worship their form of worship instead of worshipping God. They are "in love" with the idea of being "in love" but don't actually love the one they pretend to be "in love" with.

Their religion is bhakti yoga, emotional cathartic devotion to an object of affection, without much regard to what God Himself actually says on the subject (or any subject, actually). And all bhakti yoga is ultimately devotion to the "divine" Self masquerading as an external object or "god" or Teacher. Which means this type of Baal religion is idolatry of the self masquerading as devotion to "Jesus". A "Jesus" in one's own image and likeness. Your own... personal... Jesus... Someone who's there... Someone who cares...

Society has been turned into a mob of hysterical women regardless of their biological gender lookin for love in all the wrong places. And that's why tv preachers make phat cash on gullible hurting people. And that's why all of society, from the White House to the pepsi ads to the pulpits to the schools to the HR department to Hellyweird ALL teach everyone - men, women, boys, girls, and "others" - to be needy hurting emotional affection- and attention- starved desperate saps. Easily controlled, easily manipulated, easily merchandised (2 Peter 2:1-3).

But the one who LOVES GOD in the good old Bible way is one who isn't led or ruled by feelings, but by Thus Saith The LORD as it is written. :thumbsup

This concludes the Emergency Doom and Gloom System alert. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

King James version is not wrong. It's what people get from it by not being able to follow correctly how it reads in the passage.

We don't discover God's love by doing a commandment and watching the results. It's saying that so long as we continue to love God we will be keeping Commandments. It shows that we are. Love of God is Not earned by obeying the commands.

[Pressing-On]

King James version is not wrong. It's what people get from it by not being able to follow correctly how it reads in the passage.

We don't discover God's love by doing a commandment and watching the results. It's saying that so long as we continue to love God we will be keeping Commandments. It shows that we are. Love of God is Not earned by obeying the commands.

Yes! :highfive

[Esaias]

King James version is not wrong. It's what people get from it by not being able to follow correctly how it reads in the passage.

We don't discover God's love by doing a commandment and watching the results. It's saying that so long as we continue to love God we will be keeping Commandments. It shows that we are. Love of God is Not earned by obeying the commands.

You did say "... an example of the King James English throwing someone off." You did not say "... an example of someone misunderstanding English."

The verse in question says if we keep His commandments, we will abide (dwell, remain) in His love. A basic if-then statement. It is about abiding, not watching results and discovering anything.

It didn't say as long as we love God we will continue to keep His commands (although that is certainly true). It says as long as we keep His commands we abide in His love. You have the order reversed.

Of course, all that is in regards to one verse originally being discussed. I brought in some others that do indeed declare IF we love Him THEN we will obey Him. In fact, one declares plainly a cause-effect requirement: If we keep His commandments, THEN God will love us and manifest Himself to us and dwell with us, etc.

The problem a lot of folks have these days is they don't like the idea that love and obedience are inseperably connected. Yet, they are.

[mfblume]

You did say "... an example of the King James English throwing someone off." You did not say "... an example of someone misunderstanding English."

The verse in question says if we keep His commandments, we will abide (dwell, remain) in His love. A basic if-then statement. It is about abiding, not watching results and discovering anything.

It didn't say as long as we love God we will continue to keep His commands (although that is certainly true). It says as long as we keep His commands we abide in His love. You have the order reversed.

Of course, all that is in regards to one verse originally being discussed. I brought in some others that do indeed declare IF we love Him THEN we will obey Him. In fact, one declares plainly a cause-effect requirement: If we keep His commandments, THEN God will love us and manifest Himself to us and dwell with us, etc.

The problem a lot of folks have these days is they don't like the idea that love and obedience are inseperably connected. Yet, they are.

When the KING JAMES throws someone off, that does not mean it's the KING JAMES' fault. It's people who aren't able to properly follow what it says.

More later.

[Esaias]

When the KING JAMES throws someone off, that does not mean it's the KING JAMES' fault. It's people who aren't able to properly follow what it says.

More later.

It seems to me you are contradicting yourself. If X causes Y, it isn't X's fault???

The King James doesn't throw people off in this instance. People throw themselves off by not understanding what is being clearly said.

John 15:10 KJV
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If... what? "If ye keep my commandments." Not "if ye abide in my love." The KJV isn't throwing anyone off.

[Esaias]

Verse 10. - If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love. This is the method and secret, the stimulus and proof, of abiding in the love of Christ. This is not exactly the converse (Westcott) of "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Doubtless there is a love which dictates obedience to the loved One's will. Our Lord here avers, however, something further, viz. that obedience issues in a higher love. The obedience here described is the outcome of love, but the power is thus gained to continue, dwell, in the Divine love, to abide, that is, in the full enjoyment and fullness of my Divine love to you. This is obvious from the confirmatory clause: Even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. The Lord kept the Father's commandment always, doing those things which please him, offering up his precious life, laying it down that he might take it again; and the consequence is that he then and there knew that he was filled with all the fullness of the Divine love. The very impressive line of thought pervades this passage, that what the Father was to him, that he would prove to his disciples. What the love of God was to the Christ, the love of Christ was to his disciples.

Pulpit Commentary

[Pressing-On]

It seems to me you are contradicting yourself. If X causes Y, it isn't X's fault???

The King James doesn't throw people off in this instance. People throw themselves off by not understanding what is being clearly said.

John 15:10 KJV
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If... what? "If ye keep my commandments." Not "if ye abide in my love." The KJV isn't throwing anyone off.

If God says that nothing shall separate us from His love, then He can’t stop loving us. Therefore, I surmise that if I don’t keep His commandments, it is because I do not love Him.

[Esaias]

If God says that nothing shall separate us from His love, then He can’t stop loving us. Therefore, I surmise that if I don’t keep His commandments, it is because I do not love Him.

Of course, if you don't keep His commandments, then you don't love Him.

Nothing separating us from the love of God applies to Christians, who walk with God. No power can kidnap you and cause God's love to fail you.

But you can apostasize. In that case you are no longer in the "us" Paul speaks about, you have no claim to the promises of God EXCEPT the promise of pardon upon condition of your repentance, which is available to all sinners and rebels that are willing to cease their war against God.

Jude 1:21 KJV
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

If we are told to keep ourselves in the love of God, then it is possible to NOT keep ourselves in the love of God.

But in any event, "love" here in all these passages isn't about feelings like so many suppose.

[Pressing-On]

Of course, if you don't keep His commandments, then you don't love Him.

Nothing separating us from the love of God applies to Christians, who walk with God. No power can kidnap you and cause God's love to fail you.

But you can apostasize. In that case you are no longer in the "us" Paul speaks about, you have no claim to the promises of God EXCEPT the promise of pardon upon condition of your repentance, which is available to all sinners and rebels that are willing to cease their war against God.

Jude 1:21 KJV
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

If we are told to keep ourselves in the love of God, then it is possible to NOT keep ourselves in the love of God.

As has been the point, which I see you are now agreeing with.

But in any event, "love" here in all these passages isn't about feelings like so many suppose.

Love in Jude means to “love in a social or moral sense”.

I expect there would be feelings involved.

[mfblume]

It seems to me you are contradicting yourself. If X causes Y, it isn't X's fault???

The King James doesn't throw people off in this instance. People throw themselves off by not understanding what is being clearly said.

It's a manner of speaking, bro. They are jarred by antiquated English and cannot follow it correctly, so they give an erring interpretation. Why are we still talking about that? lol


John 15:10 KJV
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If... what? "If ye keep my commandments." Not "if ye abide in my love." The KJV isn't throwing anyone off.

It's throwing people off if they are no accustomed to that use of English and think it;'s something else (like you do with Col 2 on sabbaths. ;) lol).

Just funnin'

We do not earn God's love. Bottom line.

[Jito463]

If God says that nothing shall separate us from His love, then He can’t stop loving us. Therefore, I surmise that if I don’t keep His commandments, it is because I do not love Him.

Saying that He loves us, doesn't automatically mean we abide in that love.

If I may make an analogy:

A parent may say that their child is always welcome to come home, that doesn't automatically mean they abide in the home. And if they want to come home, they must obey their parents.

Likewise, if we want to abide in His love, then we must obey His commandments. His stance doesn't change, but our actions will dictate the outcome.

[Michael The Disciple]

If God says that nothing shall separate us from His love, then He can’t stop loving us. Therefore, I surmise that if I don’t keep His commandments, it is because I do not love Him.

Romans 8:35-39

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing in these verses says that SIN cannot separate us from his love.

On the other hand he says we will abide in his love if we keep his commands. John 15:10

The condition of abiding in HIS LOVE is keeping his commands.

He does not HAVE to love anyone.

[Esaias]

As has been the point, which I see you are now agreeing with.

Actually that wasn't the point, and my position hasn't changed at all. Apparently you just weren't understanding what was taking place. :thumbsup

Love in Jude means to “love in a social or moral sense”.

I expect there would be feelings involved.

Yes, you certainly would expect feelings to be involved. However, one's personal expectations are not the basis of doctrine.

[Esaias]

It's a manner of speaking, bro. They are jarred by antiquated English and cannot follow it correctly, so they give an erring interpretation. Why are we still talking about that? lol

We're still talking about it because you are persisting in claiming there is a fault with "antiquated English" that is the occasion of people misreading and misunderstanding. There is nothing antiquated about "If you keep my commandments you shall abide in my love." If the presence of "ye" be the antiquated terms that throw people off, then what they would be thrown off about is what "ye" signifies. Which is not what the discussion was about . besides which, I've never known anyone over the age of say 16 who doesn't know that "ye" is just an old way of saying "you". So, there is no "antiquated language" that "throws people off."

Rather, people cannot accept that abiding in God's love is conditioned upon obedience. So they throw themselves off into a reversal and wresting of the plain statement of Scripture, like saying "what this means is if we abide in God's love then we will keep His commandments" when that is not at all what the verse says.



It's throwing people off if they are no accustomed to that use of English and think it;'s something else (like you do with Col 2 on sabbaths. ;) lol).

Just funnin'

My understanding of Col 2 is not based on a misunderstanding of archaic Elizabethan English, but it is based on an examination of the koine Greek grammar. Try again.

We do not earn God's love. Bottom line.

Nobody said we do.

[votivesoul]

One must keep in mind the concept of wrath. The NT has more than one Greek word translated consistently as wrath. One of them happens to be orge, pronounced just like "orgy":

https://biblehub.com/greek/3709.htm

Definition:

orgḗ (from orgáō, "to teem, swelling up to constitutionally oppose") – properly, settled anger (opposition), i.e. rising up from an ongoing (fixed) opposition.

3709 /orgḗ ("settled anger") proceeds from an internal disposition which steadfastly opposes someone or something based on extended personal exposure, i.e. solidifying what the beholder considers wrong (unjust, evil).

"Orgē comes from the verb oragō meaning, 'to teem, to swell'; and thus implies that it is not a sudden outburst, but rather (referring to God's) fixed, controlled, passionate feeling against sin . . . a settled indignation...

This word appears in John 3:36, where John the Baptist said the "wrath of God" abides on all who do not obey the Son.

Paul wrote in Romans 1:18 that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness.

Psalm 7:11, in the LXX, uses the word ὀργὴν (orgen) to translate the phrase "God is angry with the wicked every day".

The reason that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly, and thus, the love of God toward us is commended, is because Christ knew that there was, predestinated from the foundation of the kosmos, a people of and for God who would come out of their sin and bondage by obeying the Gospel. That is why God sent His Son. It wasn't so you could have a personal relationship with Jesus, or that God thinks you're to die for, or whatever modern jargon church-goers like to come up with.

It was to redeem and reclaim something that was lost that God wanted back: worship of the Father in Spirit and in Truth.

God's love for us was predestined to be by nature of His being, according to His foreknowledge that sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, to condemn sin in the flesh, would bring many sons unto glory.

So, whenever thinking on Romans 5:8, always remember 5:9:

9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from ὀργῆς
(orges - wrath) through him.

If we had never obeyed the Son, God's settled indignation and anger would still abide upon us every day. His wrath against us would have been eventually revealed from heaven against us, and in flaming fire, He would then, take vengeance upon us and destroy us in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

That, brothers and sisters, is not love, but wrath.

[mfblume]

We're still talking about it because you are persisting in claiming there is a fault with "antiquated English" that is the occasion of people misreading and misunderstanding.
No, I am not saying that at all. I did not, do not and never shall say that there is a fault with Antiquated English language. Please do not tell me what I know I said. lol. It is talking about remaining in it and learning more of it. It's not our love to HIm depends on whether or not we keep his commandments. Commandment keeping does not generate love for him as many might think by reading this.

The problem is not with the old English, it's with people who cannot follow it correctly. That's not the Old English fault. It's the fault of those who do not follow it for not being educated enough in following it.

For example, when I first read Rev 5's reference to this verse:

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, [u]heard I[/i] saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I thought it meant that all creation HEARD JOHN holler. But in reality, JOHN HEARD all creation holler out.

The Old English threw me off. Not because it's wrong, but I was lacking understanding of reading Old English. Who around here, for example, knows what FETCH A COMPASS means in the KJV?


There is nothing antiquated about "If you keep my commandments you shall abide in my love." If the presence of "ye" be the antiquated terms that throw people off, then what they would be thrown off about is what "ye" signifies. Which is not what the discussion was about . besides which, I've never known anyone over the age of say 16 who doesn't know that "ye" is just an old way of saying "you". So, there is no "antiquated language" that "throws people off."
Yes, there most certainly is. But I will not belabour it.


Rather, people cannot accept that abiding in God's love is conditioned upon obedience. So they throw themselves off into a reversal and wresting of the plain statement of Scripture, like saying "what this means is if we abide in God's love then we will keep His commandments" when that is not at all what the verse says.

My understanding of Col 2 is not based on a misunderstanding of archaic Elizabethan English, but it is based on an examination of the koine Greek grammar. Try again.

Same example. You felt that "but the body of Christ", following the words about a shadow, means no one can judge EXCEPT the body of Christ, and that is not at all what the way that the English reads as. You even admitted you read it wrong, and tried saying I did as well. It actually means the body of Christ is in reference to that which cast the shadow, not an exception of who cannot judge.

Nobody said we do.

Nobody said we can earn God's love? It sure looked like you said that when you said we only abide in God's love if we keep his commandments.

I just interpreted the verse the way in whiCH John 14:23 reads about the issue. IF WE LOVE HIM, we will keep his commandments.

[james34]

If we love him we will keep his commandments

Some interpret "will" as having a future tense aim, for some it is so future tense that it never happens. But they were preached to that they loved God in a biblical Godly way, and that keeping his commandments is just trying to merit his love.
I have often pondered (years ago now) what the motive of our love toward God is? I have come to the conclusion that we love him because (he first loved us, not in lip service only but in demonstration.) The giving of his life is the greatest manifestation of his love, but it no where near the only manifestation. These selfless proofs of his love initiate in us a love toward God, but if the love that was born in us is true, then we will strive to keep his commandments and that is a present tense "will", not a ten years down the road "charismatic will". We will be judged not by how much we say we love God, by every idle word and by the whole word of God.
We live in a religious time where people put more emphasis on the second commandment than on the first.
The second being Love your neighbor as yourself, but the first is to Love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, soul , strength and might......the second is like unto it and is even called the royal commandment. But it is the 2nd and not the first. The secular humanistic version of christianity can proffessdly embrace the second commandment and ignore the first.
But to accept a love absent from obedience of keeping the commandments puts us on that old slippery slope. The bible tells us upon these 2 commandments hinge all of the law and the prophets. This is true only because true love for God (the love "of "God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost) being present in us keeps us from all of those sinful things which the commandments speak of. You dont covet things that belong to someone you love, not his property , not his wife, you dont bear false witness against someone(love thine enemy) that you love,etc. I must conclude therefore that to walk in his love cannot be separated from abiding in his word...then are we his disciples (not in lip service) but in deed.

[Esaias]

No, I am not saying that at all. I did not, do not and never shall say that there is a fault with Antiquated English language. Please do not tell me what I know I said. lol. It is talking about remaining in it and learning more of it. It's not our love to HIm depends on whether or not we keep his commandments. Commandment keeping does not generate love for him as many might think by reading this.



" It's not our love to HIm depends on whether or not we keep his commandments. Commandment keeping does not generate love for him as many might think by reading this."

You've completely lost me. I don't recall anyone saying anything remotely similar to this. Nobody has suggested that commandment keeping generates love for God. At this point I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

He said IF we keep His commandments we will abide in His love. It's a simple if then statement. Nobody has suggested that verse is saying "if we keep His commandments it generates or creates or causes love for God in us".

I have no clue what you're talking about now, I can't make sense out what point you are trying to make.

[Esaias]

If we love him we will keep his commandments

Some interpret "will" as having a future tense aim, for some it is so future tense that it never happens. But they were preached to that they loved God in a biblical Godly way, and that keeping his commandments is just trying to merit his love.
I have often pondered (years ago now) what the motive of our love toward God is? I have come to the conclusion that we love him because (he first loved us, not in lip service only but in demonstration.) The giving of his life is the greatest manifestation of his love, but it no where near the only manifestation. These selfless proofs of his love initiate in us a love toward God, but if the love that was born in us is true, then we will strive to keep his commandments and that is a present tense "will", not a ten years down the road "charismatic will". We will be judged not by how much we say we love God, by every idle word and by the whole word of God.
We live in a religious time where people put more emphasis on the second commandment than on the first.
The second being Love your neighbor as yourself, but the first is to Love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, soul , strength and might......the second is like unto it and is even called the royal commandment. But it is the 2nd and not the first. The secular humanistic version of christianity can proffessdly embrace the second commandment and ignore the first.
But to accept a love absent from obedience of keeping the commandments puts us on that old slippery slope. The bible tells us upon these 2 commandments hinge all of the law and the prophets. This is true only because true love for God (the love "of "God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost) being present in us keeps us from all of those sinful things which the commandments speak of. You dont covet things that belong to someone you love, not his property , not his wife, you dont bear false witness against someone(love thine enemy) that you love,etc. I must conclude therefore that to walk in his love cannot be separated from abiding in his word...then are we his disciples (not in lip service) but in deed.

:yourock :thumbsup :highfive

[mfblume]

" It's not our love to HIm depends on whether or not we keep his commandments. Commandment keeping does not generate love for him as many might think by reading this."

You've completely lost me. I don't recall anyone saying anything remotely similar to this. Nobody has suggested that commandment keeping generates love for God. At this point I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

He said IF we keep His commandments we will abide in His love. It's a simple if then statement. Nobody has suggested that verse is saying "if we keep His commandments it generates or creates or causes love for God in us".

I have no clue what you're talking about now, I can't make sense out what point you are trying to make.

Obviously I misunderstood your posts, whether or not you intended it the way I took it, I took it that way as if you were proposing what I spoke against. Apologies. Your words were simply not clear enough in your explanation.

[mfblume]

If we love him we will keep his commandments

Some interpret "will" as having a future tense aim, for some it is so future tense that it never happens. But they were preached to that they loved God in a biblical Godly way, and that keeping his commandments is just trying to merit his love.
I have often pondered (years ago now) what the motive of our love toward God is? I have come to the conclusion that we love him because (he first loved us, not in lip service only but in demonstration.) The giving of his life is the greatest manifestation of his love, but it no where near the only manifestation. These selfless proofs of his love initiate in us a love toward God, but if the love that was born in us is true, then we will strive to keep his commandments and that is a present tense "will", not a ten years down the road "charismatic will". We will be judged not by how much we say we love God, by every idle word and by the whole word of God.
We live in a religious time where people put more emphasis on the second commandment than on the first.
The second being Love your neighbor as yourself, but the first is to Love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, soul , strength and might......the second is like unto it and is even called the royal commandment. But it is the 2nd and not the first. The secular humanistic version of christianity can proffessdly embrace the second commandment and ignore the first.
But to accept a love absent from obedience of keeping the commandments puts us on that old slippery slope. The bible tells us upon these 2 commandments hinge all of the law and the prophets. This is true only because true love for God (the love "of "God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost) being present in us keeps us from all of those sinful things which the commandments speak of. You dont covet things that belong to someone you love, not his property , not his wife, you dont bear false witness against someone(love thine enemy) that you love,etc. I must conclude therefore that to walk in his love cannot be separated from abiding in his word...then are we his disciples (not in lip service) but in deed.

AMEN!!!