Chris Reed

[mfblume]

This great man of God has an awesome gift of the word of knowledge. People named, addresses, birthdates, etc.

I've known him for a few years now. He recently was live ministering to people who tuned in on live chat. From just seeing their names, he began revealing details to build their faith. One woman live from South Africa was on and said she was angry at God, and had much resentment. Reed ministered, and told her her son's name and before long, her broken heart and faith in God was healed. Great Jesus' name brother.

We are having him on live stream tomorrow on our church Facebook page with chat... 10:30 am central. Join us and you may be ministered to!!


https://www.facebook.com/348602302232154/posts/911920999233612/?sfnsn=mo

[Michael The Disciple]

I was impressed. So far.

[diakonos]

I missed it. Had friends over for brunch.

[consapente89]

Those poor folks must have forgotten their names and addresses. Thank Gpd the prophet was there to remind them!

[diakonos]

Those poor folks must have forgotten their names and addresses. Thank Gpd the prophet was there to remind them!

I think it’s done to prove he’s a prophet?? I don’t think it’s necessary at all. When you know you know. I still would have liked to watch.

[consapente89]

I think it’s done to prove he’s a prophet?? I don’t think it’s necessary at all. When you know you know. I still would have liked to watch.

Yeah I get that. I agree. It isn’t necessary. Also isn’t anything new.

[mfblume]

Those poor folks must have forgotten their names and addresses. Thank Gpd the prophet was there to remind them!
I am surprised this response comes on an apostolic page!

Did Jesus tell Nathanael something Nathaneal did not know?

Joh 1:47 KJV.. Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Joh 1:48 KJV.. Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

It is not to inform people of things they already know as though they forgot.

The woman at the well called Jesus a prophet for the same reason:

Joh 4:18-19 KJV.. For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. ..(19).. The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

The purpose of this is to open a person's heart like the woman from South Africa who had anger issues with God. Once Reed told her her son's name and then spoke of her abandonment issues, her heart softened and was healed! It gives people a sense that GOD really does know the number of hairs on their heads, and that is a healing wake up call for many people. It lets them realize how real God is. That woman was in South Africa at the time while nd Reed is in Indiana, and instantly God revealed this. She ended up sending his wife a note later and thanking God over and over again, and it led to her restoration of love for God after having been angry.

Another instance had him tell a woman about the loss of her daughter two years ago. She acknowledged it. He gave the date of the loss, and she was weeping by that time, understandably so, in both memory and appreciation that God let her know He understands her loss. And then Reed told her of the name Elizabeth Anne. and asked her if it was her other daughter or her own sister (the mother's sister). She said she had another daughter Elizabeth and her own sister was Anne. Two people. He then told her that these women were going to minister to her about her grief.

The addresses and street names are things he usually starts out with, and then from there it has awakened their sense of reality of God and his knowledge of the people. (If you had someone say that to you and you said, "So what?" it would be a miracle on its own that you thought so casually of how powerful the gist fo the Spirit really are. It impacts people to have someone be shown these things supernaturally.) Then it moves toward a word about a person's ministry or resolves a problem spiritually with deeper and more spiritual words of knowledge.

Once Jesus told the woman at the well things she already knew and things she did not need to be reminded of due to having not forgotten them, he then had broken barrier between a racist Samaritan who wondered why Jesus a Jew would talk to her, and someone who was so guilt-ridden for adultery with a husband that wa snot her own, which is why she came at the well at noon the hottest time fo the day, to avoid people. And then Jesus led her toward deeper spiritual things about living waters of the Holy Ghost and new birth. Then she went and told the countryside, which very likely was the root of the revival that occurred later when Philip went to Samaria and had a revival in Acts 8. THE HEARTS WERE READ.

This is the use and purpose of these revelations. It readies the heart in excited faith to see God work.

It always leads to something beneficial spiritually, not this mockery of telling someone of their addresses thatthey already know, as if it was misapplied good use of a gift.

Come on, guys.

[mfblume]

Yeah I get that. I agree. It isn’t necessary. Also isn’t anything new.

It is necessary to open up hearts to the reality of God, and who said it had to be new? Jesus did it 2000 years ago. But it is HARDLY AROUND like it SHOULD BE. The gifts need to be in operation, and there's not enough of it in our churches. The gifts do not determine spirituality. The Corinthians had them all and were yet carnal. But the gifts are meant to benefit people spiritually. And we are to ...

1Co 14:1 KJV.. Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

God wants them in his church,

1Co 12:1 KJV.. Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1Co 12:7 KJV.. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

the fruit determine spirituality, not gifts. But Jesus went out of his way to go to Samaria and tell a woman things about her life that she already knew, to awaken her up to the fact that He was a prophet, and then to see more of Jesus than just a mere prophet!

Yes, there is a purpose and it is necessary. How can you question God who obviously did this and ask him why he gave that information of addresses and names? God is the one who gave it to Reed. Reed says that he only tells people what he gets from God. But it always leads toward something like a restoration with the woman from South Africa, or as with one woman, she was told the name of her company and was told she would act in some sort of intercessory way for that workplace.

Even a sinner knew better than mockery.

Act 5:38-39 KJV.. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: ..(39).. But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

[mfblume]

I was impressed. So far.

I will have the full video out on youtube soon. Will give the link later.

In our service yesterday he asked about my mom. She is from a family of 19 kids. He did not know she would be on the stream watching, and she lives out of province here in Canada. I mentioned her since it was mother's day. So, he asked if I could bring up her name, as the chat stream shows who is watching and their comments. He then proceeded to tell her 11 of the 19 names of brothers and sisters, and some of their spouses. Then he proceeded to tell her that she had been used in the Spirit many years ago (RIGHT ON THE MONEY) and that this would be restored, and how religion got her ut of the Spiritual gifts in her life. Then he spoke of a spiritual revival in her entire family. He other family members whom he named, then came and watched after it was over and still online. And this is all while there is one of the brothers who is in serious health condition with cancer, and it gripped all of their hearts. In fact, HIS NAME and his wife's name were the first ones that he mentioned to my mom. And then he described the pain that he was not sure if my mom was suffering or not with. It turned out that it was this brother who is ill. It blessed the whole family n this time of hardship. I was weeping with joy.

Brother, it seems sinners get more of a blessing and reality check when they hear these things than some believers!

What a mother's day for my mom!

[mfblume]

On another highlight, he asked about a man whose name popped up as people were chatting and praising God, and there were two people named DANIEL. One was in our church and another is from a man who follows my ministry from ND. He said it was the man who was not in our church. He named the town he just moved from, and it was a couple of months ago. He asked if he had some kind of business experience, and he should begin his own business. He said that this was exactly what he was wanting to do. So they prayed about this to come to pass and work out.

Another sister was told of a son she had and that he had been sick and the enemy tried to take him out many times. So they prayed for his health and protection. And prayed about a daughter, then named her company. I mentioned her in an earlier post, that she would be used to do some intercession for the company she worked with.

[mfblume]

For those with facebook, the entire service is here:

https://www.facebook.com/sidneybreathoflife/videos/2566431763599304

[Michael The Disciple]

I was actually there at the Facebook meeting. Like I said I thought it was impressive. I have experienced the prophetic gifts in my own life and seen it among my friends and other Ministers.

It is like you said. A manifestation to awaken us to the presence and sensitivity toward God. It was obviously in Jesus ministry.

[mfblume]

I was actually there at the Facebook meeting. Like I said I thought it was impressive. I have experienced the prophetic gifts in my own life and seen it among my friends and other Ministers.

It is like you said. A manifestation to awaken us to the presence and sensitivity toward God. It was obviously in Jesus ministry.

Amen. Thanks for checking it out!

The woman named Michelle that he called out, she attends my cousin's church in Winnipeg, and felt to watch our meeting that morning. And then he felt to speak to her and she was incredibly blessed. And he ministered to her about her two daughters and named her son. And that was a powerful mother's day for her.

[Whoop Harted]

Ah, but did he tell them their SS number? That is the real test of a prophet!!

[Esaias]

I have a question. In the Bible, prophets either bluntly gave the word of the Lord, or, if they asked questions, they already knew the answers. On the other hand, psychics, mediums, and frauds (fake psychics, fake palm readers, etc), always ask questions, often leading questions. Kind of like an attorney doing a cross examination. The psychics and fraudsters and attorneys (and psychologists) use the answer to one question to lead into the next one. The client, mark, witness, or patient is always amazed at "how much insight the questioner has". Because it is the answers to the leading questions that give the practitioner the necessary clues for the next question. Basically social engineering.

So my question is, why does this guy seem to be using the latter methodology, rather than the former? Asking questions, I mean? "Is there a Fred on the line? I recall seeing a Fred? Okay, Fred, where are you at? What city? New York? Ok, okay... Uh... Ok.... Does the name "Joe" mean anything to you? Know anybody named Joe? Oh, you have a cousin named Joe? Okay, all right... What about... December? Ring any bells? I haven't any prior contact with Joe, folks... Oh, Joe was at a Christmas party and got indigestion? Okay, so... Okay... You know, Joe.... Has Joe been feeling down? Depressed? Worried? Oh, you say he's been upset about his finances? Okay, so... I'm thinking there's a weight issue? Maybe obesity.... Or some kind of health issue having to... What? He's diabetic? Okay, so I'm seeing some blood pressure problems... Yes? That's correct? " etc.

I'm genuinely asking why modern day prophets seem to operate so much like palm readers or George Popoff? Is it just me? Or does anyone else wonder these things as well?

[diakonos]

I haven’t had a chance to view the video

[Whoop Harted]

I am underwhelmed.

[mfblume]

I haven’t had a chance to view the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCsePdSUN14

[james34]

Well this is a public forum......never is a prophet or dreamer to be followed just because the things they speak of (not names and addresses) comes to pass. You follow the word of God, if the professed prophet adheres to the word then maybe he can also be extended the right hand of fellowship(RIGHT HAND of FELLOWSHIP....What this entails is a lesson on it's own and well worth digging into and we should not non chalantely be extending this depth of trust and fellowship to everyone.).....these things are established with time ,and fruit bearing , knowing them that labor among you...consequently a prerequisite to fellowship that cannot be attained via an internet connection.
If a prophet or dreamer of dreams dream a dream or has a vision and it comes to pass and yet they lead away from the Word of God , these people are by definition the most dangerous that one could meet.

[mfblume]

I have a question. In the Bible, prophets either bluntly gave the word of the Lord, or, if they asked questions, they already knew the answers. On the other hand, psychics, mediums, and frauds (fake psychics, fake palm readers, etc), always ask questions, often leading questions. Kind of like an attorney doing a cross examination. The psychics and fraudsters and attorneys (and psychologists) use the answer to one question to lead into the next one. The client, mark, witness, or patient is always amazed at "how much insight the questioner has". Because it is the answers to the leading questions that give the practitioner the necessary clues for the next question. Basically social engineering.

So my question is, why does this guy seem to be using the latter methodology, rather than the former? Asking questions, I mean? "Is there a Fred on the line? I recall seeing a Fred? Okay, Fred, where are you at? What city? New York? Ok, okay... Uh... Ok.... Does the name "Joe" mean anything to you? Know anybody named Joe? Oh, you have a cousin named Joe? Okay, all right... What about... December? Ring any bells? I haven't any prior contact with Joe, folks... Oh, Joe was at a Christmas party and got indigestion? Okay, so... Okay... You know, Joe.... Has Joe been feeling down? Depressed? Worried? Oh, you say he's been upset about his finances? Okay, so... I'm thinking there's a weight issue? Maybe obesity.... Or some kind of health issue having to... What? He's diabetic? Okay, so I'm seeing some blood pressure problems... Yes? That's correct? " etc.

I'm genuinely asking why modern day prophets seem to operate so much like palm readers or George Popoff? Is it just me? Or does anyone else wonder these things as well?

Deuteronomy 13:1-4.. If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, ..(2).. And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; ..(3).. Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. ..(4).. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

We are not told that if a certain manner is similar between psychics/false prophets and true prophets, then the prophet is false. We are told of the direction of worship and praise and dedication that is urged through the use of the miracle to learn the truth of the prophet. If the outcome is to lead you to false gods, then similarity is not the issue. The direction to which the "gift" leads is the issue.

Moses threw down the rod and it became a serpent. The magicians did the same. Was that manner of doing the ct of the miracle wrong with Moses because the magicians used the same manner? No. But Moses' swallowed up the others.

And the magicians did many of the SAME THINGS Moses did in the same manner. Manner was not the issue.

Exodus 7:20-22.. And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. ..(21).. And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. ..(22).. And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exodus 8:6-7.. And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt. ..(7).. And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.

But they could not do beyond that, as with dust turning to lice.

When we see a prophet do similar things that a psychic does, we ought to question more how the psychic does them so similarly, rather than the other way around, for the psychic is the counterfeit and will be known by leading people to other gods. The devil counterfeits what God started, meaning all that psychics do are counters that follow what God initiated with true prophets. When the similarity leads people to God it is genuine, as per the words of the Bible.

[mfblume]

Well this is a public forum......never is a prophet or dreamer to be followed just because the things they speak of (not names and addresses) comes to pass. You follow the word of God, if the professed prophet adheres to the word then maybe he can also be extended the right hand of fellowship(RIGHT HAND of FELLOWSHIP....What this entails is a lesson on it's own and well worth digging into and we should not non chalantely be extending this depth of trust and fellowship to everyone.).....these things are established with time ,and fruit bearing , knowing them that labor among you...consequently a prerequisite to fellowship that cannot be attained via an internet connection.
If a prophet or dreamer of dreams dream a dream or has a vision and it comes to pass and yet they lead away from the Word of God , these people are by definition the most dangerous that one could meet.

I just posted this very thing as confirmation before I read yours.

[Michael The Disciple]

Deuteronomy 13:1-4.. If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, ..(2).. And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; ..(3).. Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. ..(4).. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

We are not told that if a certain manner is similar between psychics/false prophets and true prophets, then the prophet is false. We are told of the direction of worship and praise and dedication that is urged through the use of the miracle to learn the truth of the prophet. If the outcome is to lead you to false gods, then similarity is not the issue. The direction to which the "gift" leads is the issue.

Moses threw down the rod and it became a serpent. The magicians did the same. Was that manner of doing the ct of the miracle wrong with Moses because the magicians used the same manner? No. But Moses' swallowed up the others.

And the magicians did many of the SAME THINGS Moses did in the same manner. Manner was not the issue.

Exodus 7:20-22.. And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. ..(21).. And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. ..(22).. And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exodus 8:6-7.. And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt. ..(7).. And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.

But they could not do beyond that, as with dust turning to lice.

When we see a prophet do similar things that a psychic does, we ought to question more how the psychic does them so similarly, rather than the other way around, for the psychic is the counterfeit and will be known by leading people to other gods. The devil counterfeits what God started, meaning all that psychics do are counters that follow what God initiated with true prophets. When the similarity leads people to God it is genuine, as per the words of the Bible.

Excellent answer to a good question.:highfive

Note in my first post I said I'm impressed...so far. I am checking out his Youtube Channel.

[mfblume]

Excellent answer to a good question.:highfive

Note in my first post I said I'm impressed...so far. I am checking out his Youtube Channel.

Thanks and Amen, the Bible says judge prophecies! :thumbsup

[KeptByTheWord]

I guess it just comes with the territory because of all the water under the bridge, that we have become skeptical of anyone operating the gifts of the spirit. Because of flawed human nature, spiritual gifts can easily be misused. So that is why it is always wise to judge the fruit and not just the gift itself. If the fruit is ultimately leading and pointing to Christ, and not seeking its own self-glorification, that is worthy of paying attention to.

[mfblume]

I guess it just comes with the territory because of all the water under the bridge, that we have become skeptical of anyone operating the gifts of the spirit. Because of flawed human nature, spiritual gifts can easily be misused. So that is why it is always wise to judge the fruit and not just the gift itself. If the fruit is ultimately leading and pointing to Christ, and not seeking its own self-glorification, that is worthy of paying attention to.

:thumbsup

[mfblume]

I am underwhelmed.

But are you directed to praise Jesus? Are the gifts supposed to overwhelm us? Or direct worship to Jesus?

[mfblume]

I guess it just comes with the territory because of all the water under the bridge, that we have become skeptical of anyone operating the gifts of the spirit. Because of flawed human nature, spiritual gifts can easily be misused. So that is why it is always wise to judge the fruit and not just the gift itself. If the fruit is ultimately leading and pointing to Christ, and not seeking its own self-glorification, that is worthy of paying attention to.

The reason there is so much skepticism about those who operate gifts is because people do not understand how gifts fit into the Kingdom.

Paul said the Corinthians came behind in NO GIFT. They had them all!

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

But, they were so carnal that he could not talk to them about spiritual things. This sounds so offkey because gifts are SPIRITUAL, and yet the people are not spiritual. One would assume that only spiritual people can operate spiritual gifts.

1 Cor 3: 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

And the reason was that they also had works of the flesh:

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Notice ENVY, STRIFE and DIVISIONS.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(Seditions are divisions)

Jesus spoke of the entrance into the Kingdom and referred to the gifts:

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

So, like these Corinthians, those who operated the gifts but were not carrying their crosses and following Jesus (workers of iniquity who did not hear HIS WORDS and obey them) were those who would not enter the kingdom.

So, this tells us that operation of the gifts is not dependent upon spirituality and even being right with God!

Because people do not understand this, and assume that anyone operating in deep supernatural manners must be spiritual, they are afraid of the gifts, and something makes them hesitate about accepting them, when they see these people preach error and live in sin. That something is their lack of awareness of the possibility to operate in the gifts and yet STILL NOT EVEN BE RIGHT WITH GOD. So, people see someone not right with God and operating gifts, and they get turned off them all.

Branham preached serpent seed and was deeply used in the world of knowledge.

Jack Coe saw miracles and died in an iron lung.

AA Allan was a miracle worker and an alcoholic.

But when one understands what Paul said in the above passages, along with Jesus' words, we know that one is not necessarily correctly serving God just because they're operating the GENUINE gifts. Jesus did not say that those whom he informed were never known by him were not operating genuine works of God's power in Jesus' name! He simply did not look for that, as they assumed HE WOULD and appealed to those gifts, when they were disallowed into the kingdom.

Once you know that, then you lose that resistance and skepticism, and realize that we need to look to others things to determine our spirituality such as the fruit and willingness to follow Jesus with our crosses, and not supernatural feats of gifts of the Spirit.

That does not mean we should avoid the gifts! But just know that they are not meant to determine spirituality, but benefit the body of Christ. And spirituality is found elsewhere. So, a truly spiritual person, like Paul the Apostle, would operate gifts and also bear fruit of the Spirit while carrying his cross!

[Esaias]

The reason there is so much skepticism about those who operate gifts is because people do not understand how gifts fit into the Kingdom.



In my case skepticism is due to experiences. Not saying Mr Reed is a fraud or an occultist. I was just wondering why my experiences with genuine prophetic gifts and reading descriptions in the Word do not match this questioning format, whereas my experiences with occultism and fraudsters does.

[Esaias]

Branham preached serpent seed and was deeply used in the world of knowledge.

Jack Coe saw miracles and died in an iron lung.

AA Allan was a miracle worker and an alcoholic.



I don't believe these guys were anymore genuinely gifted than Benny Hinn or Ellen White, to be honest.

[mfblume]

In my case skepticism is due to experiences. Not saying Mr Reed is a fraud or an occultist. I was just wondering why my experiences with genuine prophetic gifts and reading descriptions in the Word do not match this questioning format, whereas my experiences with occultism and fraudsters does.

I was not necessarily referring to you.

However, our experiences may not cover the gamut of what is actually of God. For that reason, we can only go by the proper standard of the Word. And the word did not say that the magicians weren't of God because they did not lay their rods down in the precise way that Moses did when they turned into serpents.

[mfblume]

I don't believe these guys were anymore genuinely gifted than Benny Hinn or Ellen White, to be honest.

I believe Branham definitely was. But it would not surprise me if the other were because I know that their error of faith and understanding does not limit God from using them in the genuine gifts

[mfblume]

Another note:

Those who knew Jesus was Lord used His name and did the wonders.

But Jesus never knew them.

But they knew Him!

Paul made an interesting note about this in the same chapter about the gifts.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

You cannot know Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit.

This reminds me of Peter knowing who Jesus is, and so much so that Jesus declared the Father revealed it to him in Matt 16. He genuinely had an experience with God to know who Jesus is. However, like Matt 7 where Jesus said he did not know the Lord-Lord criers and that they were not hearing HIS WORD and obeying it, when Jesus spoke to Peter about the cross, Peter resisted. And that's when Jesus called him satan.

What are workers of iniquity whom Jesus does not know? Those who do not carry their crosses.

So, the reason why you can say LORD LORD and know who Jesus is, like Peter, and yet perform wonder in his name that you know is the name of the LORD and Him not know YOU and be lost, is because we must go further than knowing HIS IDENTITY and LORDSHIP and listen TO HIS WORDS (from the SON) about the cross, and OBEY IT!!

This means you can hear from the FATHER about the Son's Identity, but not hear the second revelation from the SON about the cross.

Jesus said to Peter "AND I SAY ALSO UNTO THEE." And proceeded to speak of the cross.

So, Jesus said HEAR MY WORDS and obey them...

[Michael The Disciple]

I don't believe these guys were anymore genuinely gifted than Benny Hinn or Ellen White, to be honest.

Two of my Aunts having cancer went to an A.A. Allen meeting in 1965. They were both healed. One lived until 1990. The other till at least 2000.

[mfblume]

Two of my Aunts having cancer went to an A.A. Allen meeting in 1965. They were both healed. One lived until 1990. The other till at least 2000.

:thumbsup

You heard of Sister Charlotte the Ex-nun? Her sister, Babe, was healed of cancer, I believe, in a William Branham meeting as well.

[TakingDominion]

He has a beard... Can't possibly be a prophet

[mfblume]

He has a beard... Can't possibly be a prophet

Well, I do, and I'm a prophet!


lol

[diakonos]

he stated that the difference between a psychic and a prophet is that a psychic sees the future, but a prophet creates the future..


WHAAT!??

[mfblume]

he stated that the difference between a psychic and a prophet is that a psychic sees the future, but a prophet creates the future..


WHAAT!??

Prophets can pronounce things to take place. Elijah calling fire down from heaven to the false prophets, for example. Surely you heard of that.
Elijah commanded the sky to not rain for 3.5 years!

[Esaias]

I believe Branham definitely was. But it would not surprise me if the other were because I know that their error of faith and understanding does not limit God from using them in the genuine gifts

It's not so much an "error of their faith" as much as it is they were, as far as I can tell, low rent religious used car salesmen. To put it mildly.

[Esaias]

Two of my Aunts having cancer went to an A.A. Allen meeting in 1965. They were both healed. One lived until 1990. The other till at least 2000.

Somebody hearing that Jesus heals and they get healed is different than a person having the gift of healing.

Just saying.

[Esaias]

Prophets can pronounce things to take place. Elijah calling fire down from heaven to the false prophets, for example. Surely you heard of that.
Elijah commanded the sky to not rain for 3.5 years!

Why didn't Agabus create a different future for the poor across the ancient world? Or for Paul, for that matter?

[mfblume]

It's not so much an "error of their faith" as much as it is they were, as far as I can tell, low rent religious used car salesmen. To put it mildly.

By error of faith I meant their aberrant doctrines and used FAITH is in THE FAITH verses aberrant faith. But I agree with your assessment, though I still deny that was the case with Branham. Branham got into false doctrine later.

He was mightily used to promote the Jesus' name baptism early on in his ministry. A ball of fire came and appeared when he was baptizing people in the river. Scores of people saw it.

[mfblume]

Somebody hearing that Jesus heals and they get healed is different than a person having the gift of healing.

Just saying.

But anyone who knew about Branham much at all would know it was a gift for certain in his case.

I know of an entire first nations church in unceded territory in Canada that started as the result of a woman listening to Branham on the radio and claiming her healing by the faith built up, and instantly and miraculously healed from a crippling condition. And the entire chrch is still there today preaching Jesus' name as a result. Branham never even attended the place. I spoke the woman's son and preached for him in the past.

So mightily used, but fell so terribly into error. All because he loved to teach when he was not called for that. Reminds me of Uzziah.

[mfblume]

Why didn't Agabus create a different future for the poor across the ancient world? Or for Paul, for that matter?

Are you saying that Elijah did not cause the future of a rainless sky? I believe Paul changed the future of the man whose arm he commanded to whither. It just happened in the bible that way, and who are we to deny it?

Why don't we command poverty to disappear, too in our world? There are some things within our ability and some that are not. But that does not detract from the fact that these men commanded things to occur and they did.

[Amanah]

People are healed by their faith in Christ, that doesn't necessarily confirm a ministry.

Also, Balaam prophesied blessings on Israel, and his heart wasn't right with God.

[mfblume]

People are healed by their faith in Christ, that doesn't necessarily confirm a ministry.

Also, Balaam prophesied blessings on Israel, and his heart wasn't right with God.

But none of that denies that any given person has this ministry, too. IOW, that is not the point. The question in this thread is not what ministry is involved, but how God operates these gifts through us. Is this not of God because, as Esaias says, false prophets use the same manner? I proved that cannot be the case because false prophets did what Moses did, and their manners were the same. The outcome of the direction of worship vindicates the prophet, not the manner. Does the prophet lead people to other gods or to Christ?

[Amanah]

The desired outcome is the salvation of sinners, and the edification and perfecting of the saints. So yes, pointing people to Jesus.

[Esaias]

Are you saying that Elijah did not cause the future of a rainless sky? I believe Paul changed the future of the man whose arm he commanded to whither. It just happened in the bible that way, and who are we to deny it?

Why don't we command poverty to disappear, too in our world? There are some things within our ability and some that are not. But that does not detract from the fact that these men commanded things to occur and they did.

Did Elijah cause it to rain? Or did he pray and God heard his prayer?

James 5:16-18 KJV
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. [17] Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. [18] And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

I am not sure what you are referencing about Paul and a guy's withered hand?

My point was a blanket statement that "the difference between a psychic and a prophet is the psychic predicts the future and a prophet creates the future" is... foolish, in my opinion. In reality, the difference between a psychic and a prophet is that one is demonised (or a fraud) and the other is anointed and gifted by God to speak on God's behalf.

[Esaias]

But none of that denies that any given person has this ministry, too. IOW, that is not the point. The question in this thread is not what ministry is involved, but how God operates these gifts through us. Is this not of God because, as Esaias says, false prophets use the same manner? I proved that cannot be the case because false prophets did what Moses did, and their manners were the same. The outcome of the direction of worship vindicates the prophet, not the manner. Does the prophet lead people to other gods or to Christ?

My question (not making a point, but asking a genuine question) was why do many MODERN prophets follow a method that is not seen in Scripture but which appears to have been DEVELOPED by frauds and psychics? The magicians imitated Moses, Moses did not imitate the magicians. Do you see what I am saying?

[Esaias]

People are healed by their faith in Christ, that doesn't necessarily confirm a ministry.

Also, Balaam prophesied blessings on Israel, and his heart wasn't right with God.

I don't think the comparison is equal. Balaam was an old testament prophet, likely a prophet for hire. As such, possibly a fraud. When hired by Balak, God intervened and gave him a message, for a particular situation. Balaam did not have a continuing divine prophetic ministry, nor was he a Christian. So I don't think the comparison is really equal.

A genuine prophet of God might become a drunkard. But I seriously doubt a genuine prophet of God would be fleecing people for money, living like a drunkard and possibly a whoremonger/adulterer, and running a religious scam while likely not even being a believer at all.

If the Holy Ghost is what seals us to the day of redemption, and the Holy Ghost manifests via spiritual gifts, and yet anyone, any backslid or apostate-in-heart Tom, Dick, or Harry can be used continuously in the spiritual gifts... then what exactly is the point of the Holy Ghost, again?

[Esaias]

According to this Chris Reed is a Sabbath keeper???

https://m.prod.facebook.com/The-Revival-Center-233130293406786/

[Esaias]

"We believe that the laws, statutes, and judgments in the Bible are the divine revelation defining sin and righteousness (1 John 3:4; Rom. 7:7), and that violation of these laws are cause for repentance or judgment. Other standards of righteousness, such as love (John 15:12) and faith (Rom. 14:23) are general principles which the specific statutes help us to define the will of God and apply the law in a more practical way.



We believe that the law cannot justify sinners (Ex. 34:7; Rom. 3:19, 20), and that therefore, Justification before the law is only possible by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:8) who paid for our sins by His death on the cross. "

https://www.revivalcenterperu.com/statement-of-faith

[Michael The Disciple]

He is a sabbath keeper. The Church meets Friday night and Saturday morning.

[Michael The Disciple]

Men can have a prophetic gift and not be a prophet.

[mfblume]

Men can have a prophetic gift and not be a prophet.

AMen.

[mfblume]

According to this Chris Reed is a Sabbath keeper???

https://m.prod.facebook.com/The-Revival-Center-233130293406786/

Yes, but he does not feel the laws related to sabbath are intact today, just hat they hold church that day and that is the limit.

[mfblume]

My question (not making a point, but asking a genuine question) was why do many MODERN prophets follow a method that is not seen in Scripture but which appears to have been DEVELOPED by frauds and psychics? The magicians imitated Moses, Moses did not imitate the magicians. Do you see what I am saying?

I understand, but I just do not think it is a matter of following a developed form that psychics used. I personally don't know how psychics do their thing anyway. I recognize no manner to begin with. So, I simply stated that manner is not noted in the bible. Just the end results f who is worshiped.

[Esaias]

Yes, but he does not feel the laws related to sabbath are intact today, just hat they hold church that day and that is the limit.

According to their statement of faith they seem to hold a somewhat stronger view than what your assessment implies?

""We believe that the laws, statutes, and judgments in the Bible are the divine revelation defining sin and righteousness (1 John 3:4; Rom. 7:7), and that violation of these laws are cause for repentance or judgment. Other standards of righteousness, such as love (John 15:12) and faith (Rom. 14:23) are general principles which the specific statutes help us to define the will of God and apply the law in a more practical way."

[mfblume]

According to their statement of faith they seem to hold a somewhat stronger view than what your assessment imies?

""We believe that the laws, statutes, and judgments in the Bible are the divine revelation defining sin and righteousness (1 John 3:4; Rom. 7:7), and that violation of these laws are cause for repentance or judgment. Other standards of righteousness, such as love (John 15:12) and faith (Rom. 14:23) are general principles which the specific statutes help us to define the will of God and apply the law in a more practical way."

I will ask him. But that's what he told me beforehand.

[Esaias]

I will ask him. But that's what he told me beforehand.

:thumbsup

BTW, not trying nitpick, just curious.

[Amanah]

I was curious about him so I looked him up on Facebook, noticed that he is friends with my Pastor. Sent him a friend request which he accepted.

Watched this message by him, and thought it very interesting

https://youtu.be/ETKZrWBSGW0

.

[Praxeas]

I have a question. In the Bible, prophets either bluntly gave the word of the Lord, or, if they asked questions, they already knew the answers. On the other hand, psychics, mediums, and frauds (fake psychics, fake palm readers, etc), always ask questions, often leading questions. Kind of like an attorney doing a cross examination. The psychics and fraudsters and attorneys (and psychologists) use the answer to one question to lead into the next one. The client, mark, witness, or patient is always amazed at "how much insight the questioner has". Because it is the answers to the leading questions that give the practitioner the necessary clues for the next question. Basically social engineering.

So my question is, why does this guy seem to be using the latter methodology, rather than the former? Asking questions, I mean? "Is there a Fred on the line? I recall seeing a Fred? Okay, Fred, where are you at? What city? New York? Ok, okay... Uh... Ok.... Does the name "Joe" mean anything to you? Know anybody named Joe? Oh, you have a cousin named Joe? Okay, all right... What about... December? Ring any bells? I haven't any prior contact with Joe, folks... Oh, Joe was at a Christmas party and got indigestion? Okay, so... Okay... You know, Joe.... Has Joe been feeling down? Depressed? Worried? Oh, you say he's been upset about his finances? Okay, so... I'm thinking there's a weight issue? Maybe obesity.... Or some kind of health issue having to... What? He's diabetic? Okay, so I'm seeing some blood pressure problems... Yes? That's correct? " etc.

I'm genuinely asking why modern day prophets seem to operate so much like palm readers or George Popoff? Is it just me? Or does anyone else wonder these things as well?

I thought the same. Why the questions? That's a cold reading method

[Praxeas]

Essias, did you watch it?

[Michael The Disciple]

Chris Reed prophesied in one of his videos that Stacy Abrams and Kamala Harris were getting ready to come into prominence. I dont remember which video at the moment. If it happens I will look it up.

[Esaias]

Essias, did you watch it?

I watched part of it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Chris Reed?

I’m glad I’ve been gone :lol

COVID 19 and Chris Reed.

Yeah, good times! :lol

[mfblume]

Sorry guys, he's a good friend of mine and I believe he's sincere and used of the Lord.

[mfblume]

I thought the same. Why the questions? That's a cold reading method

Did you read my notes on the method that I posted earlier? Where does the bible say you cannot ask questions?

[mfblume]

Also, we KNOW IN PART and PROPHESY IN PART.

1 Corinthians 13:9.. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1 Corinthians 13:12.. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Jesus did not do so in PART like we do.

But if these things ought not be done, that defies Jesus' words after having told the woman at the well how many husbands she had, and telling Nathanael where he was before Philip came to him, saying these things shall ye do and greater.

[votivesoul]

Sorry guys, he's a good friend of mine and I believe he's sincere and used of the Lord.

If he's your friend and you believe he's legit, no need to apologize. Stay true to what you believe. :thumbsup

But also consider that initial skepticism is the default position of the Scriptures. We are to prove all things and only hold fast to that which is good, we are to test the spirits to see whether or not they are of God, and etc.

The challenge here then, as far as I can tell is, and always has been, when it comes to the Word of Knowledge gift, the Holy Spirit isn't the only spirit that knows things, and knows how to communicate those things to a willing vessel. As such, the Word of Knowledge gift is the one most easily exploited by an unholy spirit.

This is not to say that your friend is enthralled to an unholy spirit--I mean nothing of the kind--rather, it's why believers are not going to easily receive the veracity of such gifting, automatically, even if someone of your stature vouches for the one so gifted.

[votivesoul]

Also, we KNOW IN PART and PROPHESY IN PART.

1 Corinthians 13:9.. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1 Corinthians 13:12.. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Jesus did not do so in PART like we do.

But if these things ought not be done, that defies Jesus' words after having told the woman at the well how many husbands she had, and telling Nathanael where he was before Philip came to him, saying these things shall ye do and greater.

All the more reason to be skeptical, brother. If we only know and prophesy in part, and there is only a short record of the Lord Jesus ever doing the above, then when someone stands up among the believers and begins doing the self-same thing hundreds of times, or more, in their life and ministry, it beleaguers the Christian to accept it as truly being from God.

Jeremiah prophesied for 33 years, and if my count is accurate, he wrote that the Word of the Lord only came to him a total of about 35 times. So, just barely more than once per year on average. It's food for thought when it comes to someone's spiritual gifting.

[mfblume]

All the more reason to be skeptical, brother. If we only know and prophesy in part, and there is only a short record of the Lord Jesus ever doing the above, then when someone stands up among the believers and begins doing the self-same thing hundreds of times, or more, in their life and ministry, it beleaguers the Christian to accept it as truly being from God.

Jeremiah prophesied for 33 years, and if my count is accurate, he wrote that the Word of the Lord only came to him a total of about 35 times. So, just barely more than once per year on average. It's food for thought when it comes to someone's spiritual gifting.

I agree. Nothing wrong with trying the spirits of any situation.

[Pressing-On]

All the more reason to be skeptical, brother. If we only know and prophesy in part, and there is only a short record of the Lord Jesus ever doing the above, then when someone stands up among the believers and begins doing the self-same thing hundreds of times, or more, in their life and ministry, it beleaguers the Christian to accept it as truly being from God.

Jeremiah prophesied for 33 years, and if my count is accurate, he wrote that the Word of the Lord only came to him a total of about 35 times. So, just barely more than once per year on average. It's food for thought when it comes to someone's spiritual gifting.

I agree with trying the spirits, but would we want to compare the “greater things than these will you do” New Testament gifts with the limitations of Jeremiah? Why limit the NT believers?

[votivesoul]

I agree. Nothing wrong with trying the spirits of any situation.

And if you and others have tried his spirit and find him to be of the Lord, as said before, don't apologize, regardless of the AFF critics.

[votivesoul]

I agree with trying the spirits, but would we want to compare the “greater things than these will you do” New Testament gifts with the limitations of Jeremiah? Why limit the NT believers?

I wasn't trying to make a full-on comparison, just offering a point of view to consider.

As far as John 14:12 and the affirmation of "greater works than these will you do", we have to define our terms. Does "greater" mean in scope, degree, or magnitude? In quantity? All of the above?

Another question to consider is, did Jesus mean that word to apply to all believers everywhere, or specifically to the apostles with whom He was, at the moment, conversing?

For example, in Acts and the Epistles, the idea of signs and wonders and divers miracles is almost universally associated with apostles, the only exception being two deacons, Stephen and Philip (See: Acts 2:42, 5:12, 14:3, Romans 15:12 & 19, 2 Corinthians 12:12, and Hebrews 2:4).

[mfblume]

I wasn't trying to make a full-on comparison, just offering a point of view to consider.

As far as John 14:12 and the affirmation of "greater works than these will you do", we have to define our terms. Does "greater" mean in scope, degree, or magnitude? In quantity? All of the above?

Another question to consider is, did Jesus mean that word to apply to all believers everywhere, or specifically to the apostles with whom He was, at the moment, conversing?

For example, in Acts and the Epistles, the idea of signs and wonders and divers miracles is almost universally associated with apostles, the only exception being two deacons, Stephen and Philip (See: Acts 2:42, 5:12, 14:3, Romans 15:12 & 19, 2 Corinthians 12:12, and Hebrews 2:4).

Mark 16: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1 cor 1: 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

[Pressing-On]

I wasn't trying to make a full-on comparison, just offering a point of view to consider.

As far as John 14:12 and the affirmation of "greater works than these will you do", we have to define our terms. Does "greater" mean in scope, degree, or magnitude? In quantity? All of the above?

Another question to consider is, did Jesus mean that word to apply to all believers everywhere, or specifically to the apostles with whom He was, at the moment, conversing?

For example, in Acts and the Epistles, the idea of signs and wonders and divers miracles is almost universally associated with apostles, the only exception being two deacons, Stephen and Philip (See: Acts 2:42, 5:12, 14:3, Romans 15:12 & 19, 2 Corinthians 12:12, and Hebrews 2:4).

You sound a bit like a Jehovah's Witness. I Corinthians 13:8. :hmmm

Jesus speaks to His Disciples a good while in John 13-17.

I am struck with what He says in John 14:12 "He who believes in me..."

Is He speaking only to the Apostles here? I think not.

John 17:20 makes that apparent - "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they may believe that you sent Me."

The whole premise of John 13-17 is that Jesus and the Father are one, making Jesus God. Secondly, that He will send the Comforter who will abide with us forever. He identifies that Comforter as Himself - John 14:18 " I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you."

John 15:4 "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me."

Notice that in Philippians 1:10-11, Paul and Timothy are addressing the "saints" who are in Philippi - "...(11)being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

Now, notice the example Jesus sets in John 5:20 " For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel."

He turns around and conveys that upon all those who believe - John 14:12 "I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with my Father."

The conclusion - we see in John 13-17 that Jesus was NOT speaking only to His Disciples and therefore, greater things are passed to those who believe the Word and are filled with His Spirit.

Of course, we can get into "obeying" the Word, which is where our faith takes us. But, I don't think it is necessary, as we all understand that.

I am remembering Bishop Jack Cunningham who spoke at the last Youth Conference. He said, words to effect, "You wonder about these men and women of God who have done great things. Well, I can tell you that they didn't sit around binging on The Office."

That comment tells us where the problem lies in carrying out "greater things than these" - it is about commitment.

I am sure that when Brother Bernard's FIL died during their church service and was raised from the dead, as one example most everyone is aware of, he wasn't scratching his head thinking: "Does "greater" mean in scope, degree, or magnitude? In quantity? All of the above?"

No, he didn't stop and ask those questions, He responded under the direction and unction of the Spirit and his FIL was raised up. Hallelujah!

All of the scriptures you quoted at the end of your comments only tell me that the Disciples are teaching us, by example as did Jesus Christ.

[Pressing-On]

Mark 16: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1 cor 1: 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Succinct! :thumbsup:thumbsup

[Nicodemus1968]

I agree with trying the spirits, but would we want to compare the “greater things than these will you do” New Testament gifts with the limitations of Jeremiah? Why limit the NT believers?

John 14:12 KJVS
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I completely agree with you Sis. This is a promise to those that believe in him.

[mfblume]

I claim that the teaching of the gifts is so lacking among many apostolics that there is a lack of the gifts, themselves. Not saying I am not in need of learning, or I would be operating more myself.

[Pressing-On]

I claim that the teaching of the gifts is so lacking among many apostolics that there is a lack of the gifts, themselves. Not saying I am not in need of learning, or I would be operating more myself.

I totally believe and agree with that!

What Gospel did Jesus preach? In the four Gospels, it says that Jesus came and preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. What was that? It wasn’t Acts 2:38. That hadn’t come about yet. The Gospel is the Good News. He was the King, He brought with Him the Kingdom and showed them what the Kingdom was like. In the Kingdom of God, there is no cancer, no deafness, etc. when you bring Jesus into a situation, anything anti-Kingdom has to leave.

I don’t know what we think we are preaching and believing today. Being happy with Sunday School classes, etc., isn’t going to cut it.

[Michael The Disciple]

I claim that the teaching of the gifts is so lacking among many apostolics that there is a lack of the gifts, themselves. Not saying I am not in need of learning, or I would be operating more myself.

The prophetic gift came into my life the same hour as the Holy Spirit baptism. There are about 130 times where the Lord gave me dreams that came to pass, mostly within 2-3 days, some after a number of years. I dont count them as being of God unless they actually come to pass.

I have seen striking prophetic gifts over the years. And altho Im sure it happens somewhere I have never seen it from an Apostolic pulpit.

[Pressing-On]

The prophetic gift came into my life the same hour as the Holy Spirit baptism. There are about 130 times where the Lord gave me dreams that came to pass, mostly within 2-3 days, some after a number of years. I dont count them as being of God unless they actually come to pass.

I have seen striking prophetic gifts over the years. And altho Im sure it happens somewhere I have never seen it from an Apostolic pulpit.

Not a single one, huh? :ohplease

[Michael The Disciple]

Not a single one, huh? :ohplease

I think thats what I said.

But if we count Chris Reed ministering online at Mike Blumes Church that would be the first.

[mfblume]

The prophetic gift came into my life the same hour as the Holy Spirit baptism. There are about 130 times where the Lord gave me dreams that came to pass, mostly within 2-3 days, some after a number of years. I dont count them as being of God unless they actually come to pass.

I have seen striking prophetic gifts over the years. And altho Im sure it happens somewhere I have never seen it from an Apostolic pulpit.

I've seen it scores of times from apostolic pulpits. I've been used, too.

I do know that this issue of use has something -- likely mostly -- to do with COMPASSION and love. Before Paul corrected the Corinthians about the gifts in chapter 14 after listing them in chapter 12, chapter 13 talks about LOVE/CHARITY. And look at the first verse in Chapter 14:

1 cor 14:14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Imagine someone using the word of knowledge like Jesus and knowing the woman at the well had five husbands, and was living with someone else's husband, and that person had a JUDGMENTAL nature and was condemning. Condemnation ALWAYS accompanies legalism. Even Paul said that LAw was a "ministration of condemnation!" God cannot use people in the gifts who have no compassion.

Hmmmm....

[mfblume]

I think thats what I said.

But if we count Chris Reed ministering online at Mike Blumes Church that would be the first.

I have family who are ministers and used in the gifts. Morton Bustard. William Bustard. Apostolics.

For the glory of the Lord, one time I ministered at a UPC church in the 80s and the man whom I prayed for was revealed to me to have someone at his workplace who was persecuting him about his faith. I proceeded to pray about the man for God to touch him and to give this brother strength. It was dead-on. At another time a few years ago, I prayed for a family of a brother who all attended service together, and he told me that one of the daughters had written some songs for worship. I totally forgot about that during this particular service we were in. When personally praying for each of the three children, when I came to one of the girls, it suddenly hit me that SHE was writing songs. I asked the brother if this was the girl that he told me about who had done that. He said it was that girl.

I personally had a minister visiting in our apostolic church pray for three specific things that had recently prayed about, and TOLD NO ONE. It was while I was in bible school. I prayed for God to help me receive revelation of the Word of God when I studied the Bible, prayed that I could SPEAK FORTH what I saw (since I had received some and found it oddly hard to explain to people), and to know when to pray for healing for someone when there would be a healing. He called all three things out particularly in detail just as I prayed for them.

I had also specifically prayed for another request of my music playing, in quite intensive prayer, and the same minister told me to stand and verbatim touched on that very prayer request, and told me to keep praying and wear carpet out in my prayer closet in prayer. It was ALWAYS something that I particularly prayed about that I was called out for by such ministers.

[Michael The Disciple]

I have family who are ministers and used in the gifts. Morton Bustard. William Bustard. Apostolics.

For the glory of the Lord, one time I ministered at a UPC church in the 80s and the man whom I prayed for was revealed to me to have someone at his workplace who was persecuting him about his faith. I proceeded to pray about the man for God to touch him and to give this brother strength. It was dead-on. At another time a few years ago, I prayed for a family of a brother who all attended service together, and he told me that one of the daughters had written some songs for worship. I totally forgot about that during this particular service we were in. When personally praying for each of the three children, when I came to one of the girls, it suddenly hit me that SHE was writing songs. I asked the brother if this was the girl that he told me about who had done that. He said it was that girl.

I personally had a minister visiting in our apostolic church pray for three specific things that had recently prayed about, and TOLD NO ONE. It was while I was in bible school. I prayed for God to help me receive revelation of the Word of God when I studied the Bible, prayed that I could SPEAK FORTH what I saw (since I had received some and found it oddly hard to explain to people), and to know when to pray for healing for someone when there would be a healing. He called all three things out particularly in detail just as I prayed for them.

I had also specifically prayed for another request of my music playing, in quite intensive prayer, and the same minister told me to stand and verbatim touched on that very prayer request, and told me to keep praying and wear carpet out in my prayer closet in prayer. It was ALWAYS something that I particularly prayed about that I was called out for by such ministers.

Praise the Lord!

I said I'm sure it happens somewhere. Im just commenting what I have personally seen.

[Michael The Disciple]

I've seen it scores of times from apostolic pulpits. I've been used, too.

I do know that this issue of use has something -- likely mostly -- to do with COMPASSION and love. Before Paul corrected the Corinthians about the gifts in chapter 14 after listing them in chapter 12, chapter 13 talks about LOVE/CHARITY. And look at the first verse in Chapter 14:

1 cor 14:14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Imagine someone using the word of knowledge like Jesus and knowing the woman at the well had five husbands, and was living with someone else's husband, and that person had a JUDGMENTAL nature and was condemning. Condemnation ALWAYS accompanies legalism. Even Paul said that LAw was a "ministration of condemnation!" God cannot use people in the gifts who have no compassion.

Hmmmm....

If one has no love we should not expect to see them in Heaven. They are nothing. 1 Cor 13.

[mfblume]

Praise the Lord!

I said I'm sure it happens somewhere. Im just commenting what I have personally seen.

Amen. I know what you mean. A brother whom I know just asked me last week to pray to see a resurgence of gifts in the church in which he attends as well.

[mfblume]

If one has no love we should not expect to see them in Heaven. They are nothing. 1 Cor 13.

Agreed. But it seems that even the corinthians would be saved by the skin of their teeth.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I do NOT interpret that, by the way, as once saved always saved.

[Esaias]

I've seen it scores of times from apostolic pulpits. I've been used, too.

I do know that this issue of use has something -- likely mostly -- to do with COMPASSION and love. Before Paul corrected the Corinthians about the gifts in chapter 14 after listing them in chapter 12, chapter 13 talks about LOVE/CHARITY. And look at the first verse in Chapter 14:

1 cor 14:14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Imagine someone using the word of knowledge like Jesus and knowing the woman at the well had five husbands, and was living with someone else's husband, and that person had a JUDGMENTAL nature and was condemning. Condemnation ALWAYS accompanies legalism. Even Paul said that LAw was a "ministration of condemnation!" God cannot use people in the gifts who have no compassion.

Hmmmm....

But He can use fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, sodomites, and heretics?

[diakonos]

But He can use fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, sodomites, and heretics?

What?

[Esaias]

God cannot use people in the gifts who have no compassion.

Hmmmm....

But He can use fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, sodomites, and heretics?

What?

Was it not previously argued that operation of gifts is independent of moral character or doctrinal orthodoxy?

[Michael The Disciple]

But He can use fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, sodomites, and heretics?

Agree with your point. Neither shall these enter Heaven.

Perhaps this could apply?

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[votivesoul]

Mark 16: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1 cor 1: 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

And yet, no real-time, living account in Acts of Mark 16:17 being fulfilled in the lives of all believers. So, again, who is Jesus talking to? Every believer for all time everywhere? Or to His apostles?

As regards 1 Corinthians 1:5-7, you might read "so that ye come behind in no gift" as a statement of purpose, not a statement of reality. Clearly, we know Corinth was a mess in need of severe rebuke and censure.

Later in chapter 4, Paul tells them when he comes, he is going to investigate their power, not their speech or knowledge, because knowledge puffs up and the Kingdom of God is not in word but in power. Clearly, Paul had major doubts about how much power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit was actually occurring in Corinth at that time.

Finally, as it relates to 1 Corinthians 12:11, there is no doubt there, that God gives the gifts according to His own will, and after a description of these gifts and teaching about what it means to be the Body of Christ, and explaining that God placed apostles, then prophets, then teachers, and etc. into that Body, the first thing Paul rhetorically asks them is "Are all apostles? Are all prophets?" (1 Corinthians 12:28-29). So, when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit, is it not possible Paul is keeping within his own established elsewhere context of signs and wonders and divers miracles chiefly pertaining to the ministry of Apostles?

[votivesoul]

Jesus speaks to His Disciples a good while in John 13-17.

I am struck with what He says in John 14:12 "He who believes in me..."

Is He speaking only to the Apostles here? I think not.

Perhaps Jesus means every believer for all time everywhere, with His use of "anyone who believes", or perhaps "anyone who believes" is a subset under the superset "apostle". If so, it would indicate something like "anyone [of you apostles] who believes..." It is certainly worth asking, because, as said, Acts plays itself out only a matter of a couple of months later, and the greater works Jesus spoke of were not produced by the entire Body of Christ. Rather, it specifically denotes that isn't the case every time it specifically mentions apostles only.

John 17:20 makes that apparent - "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they may believe that you sent Me."

While the general context is the same (Christ's discourse from 13-17), the specific context in John 17 is different, particularly verse 20.

The whole premise of John 13-17 is that Jesus and the Father are one, making Jesus God. Secondly, that He will send the Comforter who will abide with us forever. He identifies that Comforter as Himself - John 14:18 " I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you."

What does this have to do with whether or not the greater works statement applies to all believers everywhere or to those especially and uniquely gifted by Christ?

John 15:4 "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me."

Notice that in Philippians 1:10-11, Paul and Timothy are addressing the "saints" who are in Philippi - "...(11)being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

Now, notice the example Jesus sets in John 5:20 " For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel."

He turns around and conveys that upon all those who believe - John 14:12 "I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with my Father."

The conclusion - we see in John 13-17 that Jesus was NOT speaking only to His Disciples and therefore, greater things are passed to those who believe the Word and are filled with His Spirit.

You haven't really proven your point. You've only woven some verses together because they have some of the same words in them.

First, which you haven't addressed as of yet, is the problem of John 21:25 regarding the nearly limitless works Jesus performed. Any consideration of "greater works" has to keep this verse in view.

Second, John 17:20, which you brought up, helps show Christ's discourse was to the apostles. Jesus said He wasn't just praying for the apostles (that is, the 11 remaining men who accompanied Him to the Passover Seder in chapter 13), but for all those who would come to believe on Him through their word. This shows that up until now, Jesus didn't really have everyone else in the world who would later come to believe in Him in mind. This was a crucial, intensive training session for the apostles, to get them ready for the crucifixion and resurrection and gift of the Holy Spirit.

We weren't there. So, not to us. This doesn't mean it's not for us, but it wasn't to us. For example, when you received the Holy Spirit, do you believe at that moment in time, Jesus prayed for the Father to send another Comforter?

I doubt you do. But why? Because Jesus praying to the Father for another Comforter is an already fulfilled reality that happened a long time ago. So, Jesus isn't praying to the Father, requesting that God allow Him to send the Holy Spirit to every next person who is being born again. It's already been accomplished. As such, it's clear Jesus saying that wasn't "to us", even though it is for us, for our understanding and faith.

Of course, we can get into "obeying" the Word, which is where our faith takes us. But, I don't think it is necessary, as we all understand that.

I am remembering Bishop Jack Cunningham who spoke at the last Youth Conference. He said, words to effect, "You wonder about these men and women of God who have done great things. Well, I can tell you that they didn't sit around binging on The Office."

That comment tells us where the problem lies in carrying out "greater things than these" - it is about commitment.

I am sure that when Brother Bernard's FIL died during their church service and was raised from the dead, as one example most everyone is aware of, he wasn't scratching his head thinking: "Does "greater" mean in scope, degree, or magnitude? In quantity? All of the above?"

No, he didn't stop and ask those questions, He responded under the direction and unction of the Spirit and his FIL was raised up. Hallelujah!

All of the scriptures you quoted at the end of your comments only tell me that the Disciples are teaching us, by example as did Jesus Christ.

While I agree that commitment is certainly lacking in many places with many people, commitment in and of itself is not the only factor. The five gifts that Christ gave to the church, apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher, are given by grace (Ephesians 4:7-11). You can't make Jesus give that grace to you by your commitment, or else, it's not of grace, but of your works. You can commit yourself to being faithful to the Lord to obey His will and His will, will be done in your life, and if His will is for you to receive such grace, so as to become one of the five gifts, it will happen at His discretion. But not just because you are committed.

Additionally, you have to ask yourself, how many fully committed, faithful believers are out there in the world at large who are not, and so far, never have, performed greater works than Christ? You indict them all as uncommitted and unfaithful and act as their judge by merely suggesting they must lack commitment, that is, something is wrong with them because they aren't doing these greater works you say they ought to be doing by sheer commitment alone.

Sister, have you done greater works, whether in scope, degree, magnitude, or quantity, than Jesus? Know anyone who has? Are you then uncommitted? Binge-watching The Office?

And as it regards Dr. Bernard, you may need to consider whether or not he is an apostle. If he is, would it not be expected that with such an apostleship comes the grace to perform signs, wonders, and divers miracles, like raising the dead to life?

[votivesoul]

I claim that the teaching of the gifts is so lacking among many apostolics that there is a lack of the gifts, themselves. Not saying I am not in need of learning, or I would be operating more myself.

Whatever lies unattended and ignored from the Scriptures gets forgotten and unpracticed by believers. This is true, but keep in mind that there is also a terrible supply of horrendous doctrine regarding the gifts, so much so, that it may be God does not supply their use until the truth about the charismata prevails.

It may also be that He has other reasons for withholding them.

[votivesoul]

I totally believe and agree with that!

What Gospel did Jesus preach? In the four Gospels, it says that Jesus came and preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. What was that? It wasn’t Acts 2:38. That hadn’t come about yet. The Gospel is the Good News. He was the King, He brought with Him the Kingdom and showed them what the Kingdom was like. In the Kingdom of God, there is no cancer, no deafness, etc. when you bring Jesus into a situation, anything anti-Kingdom has to leave.

I don’t know what we think we are preaching and believing today. Being happy with Sunday School classes, etc., isn’t going to cut it.

Regarding the emboldened text above:

WHAT?

Saints in the kingdom of God get and die from cancer. Deaf saints abound, as well. Are these then anti-Kingdom because they end up diseased and died or are never recovered from their deafness? Jesus isn't involved with them because their health concerns didn't leave when He showed up in their life?

Or maybe you think He left and forsook them because their so-called "anti-Kingdom" maladies made Him vacate for some unknown, un-Scriptural reason?

One wonders, then, when does this anti-Kingdom nonsense have to leave? Because if Jesus is involved in your life, and you are yet prattling this trash, then clearly it doesn't have to leave just because Jesus was brought into your situation.

[votivesoul]

What?

The types of people Esaias mentioned are lawless people, some of whom were in the Corinthian church at the time of Paul's writing, the church which it is believed literally "came behind in no gift". So, if I am understanding Esaias correctly, how is it that if you lack compassion, God can't use you because you're a legalist who condemns, but if you're a sinner of a different stripe but are generally speaking, compassionate, God can use you just fine?

[Amanah]

And yet, no real-time, living account in Acts of Mark 16:17 being fulfilled in the lives of all believers. So, again, who is Jesus talking to? Every believer for all time everywhere? Or to His apostles?

As regards 1 Corinthians 1:5-7, you might read "so that ye come behind in no gift" as a statement of purpose, not a statement of reality. Clearly, we know Corinth was a mess in need of severe rebuke and censure.

Later in chapter 4, Paul tells them when he comes, he is going to investigate their power, not their speech or knowledge, because knowledge puffs up and the Kingdom of God is not in word but in power. Clearly, Paul had major doubts about how much power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit was actually occurring in Corinth at that time.

Finally, as it relates to 1 Corinthians 12:11, there is no doubt there, that God gives the gifts according to His own will, and after a description of these gifts and teaching about what it means to be the Body of Christ, and explaining that God placed apostles, then prophets, then teachers, and etc. into that Body, the first thing Paul rhetorically asks them is "Are all apostles? Are all prophets?" (1 Corinthians 12:28-29). So, when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit, is it not possible Paul is keeping within his own established elsewhere context of signs and wonders and divers miracles chiefly pertaining to the ministry of Apostles?

There have been times when God has used me in spiritual gifts and has anointed me to teach bible studies to lost people, and I have never held a leadership position.
So I have to conclude that the gifts are not limited to the Apostles and Prophets.

[votivesoul]

There have been times when God has used me in spiritual gifts and has anointed me to teach bible studies to lost people, and I have never held a leadership position.
So I have to conclude that the gifts are not limited to the Apostles and Prophets.

Leadership positions have very little and in some cases, next to nothing to do, with God's gifting by grace.

[votivesoul]

There have been times when God has used me in spiritual gifts and has anointed me to teach bible studies to lost people, and I have never held a leadership position.
So I have to conclude that the gifts are not limited to the Apostles and Prophets.

Leadership positions have very little and in some cases, next to nothing to do, with God's gifting by grace.

Also, you have things backwards, cart before the horse, as it were. You don't establish the soundness of a teaching by your personal experiences, you establish the soundness of a teaching according to what the Scriptures declare to be true.

For example, you could have--and I'm not saying you should have, just that you could have, concluded that because you don't believe yourself to be an apostle or prophetess, or because you've never held any leadership positions your personal experiences with the charismata and evangelistic Bible teachings were of the flesh and not of God.

You see, it's easier to find fault with a position than it is to find fault with yourself, generally speaking. So, the position I have undertaken to explicate, with much Scripture to verify my claims, has to be wrong, because of your personal, contradictory experiences, rather than your personal, contradictory experiences being the error in the face of the veracity of the position.

This is why we never determine what sound Biblical doctrine is by our experiences, because our experiences are subjective and therefore, misleading and prone to errors of the flesh.

No, we establish orthodoxy (correct belief) first, then we determine orthopraxy (correct practice), and then we determine orthopathy (correct experience). Always in that order, or we end up in carnal ditches all the way around.

[diakonos]

The types of people Esaias mentioned are lawless people, some of whom were in the Corinthian church at the time of Paul's writing, the church which it is believed literally "came behind in no gift". So, if I am understanding Esaias correctly, how is it that if you lack compassion, God can't use you because you're a legalist who condemns, but if you're a sinner of a different stripe but are generally speaking, compassionate, God can use you just fine?

Ahh... thanks.

[votivesoul]

Ahh... thanks.

But, of course, let him clarify, as I may have misrepresented him and I would rather not do so.

[Michael The Disciple]

I've seen it scores of times from apostolic pulpits. I've been used, too.

I do know that this issue of use has something -- likely mostly -- to do with COMPASSION and love. Before Paul corrected the Corinthians about the gifts in chapter 14 after listing them in chapter 12, chapter 13 talks about LOVE/CHARITY. And look at the first verse in Chapter 14:

1 cor 14:14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Imagine someone using the word of knowledge like Jesus and knowing the woman at the well had five husbands, and was living with someone else's husband, and that person had a JUDGMENTAL nature and was condemning. Condemnation ALWAYS accompanies legalism. Even Paul said that LAw was a "ministration of condemnation!" God cannot use people in the gifts who have no compassion.

Hmmmm....

Altho I would generally speaking agree that gifts flow from love we must be very careful here. Was Jesus judgmental when he called the Pharisees two fold children of Hell? When he called Herod an old fox?

Was he judgmental when he killed Anannias and his wife?

Was he being legalistic when he expected the disciples at Sardis works to be perfect? The Ladoceans to be on fire?

Jesus was sometimes very kind in his dealings with people. Other times he could be terrible! Think of him overthrowing tables and driving the thieves and robbers from his Fathers house!

The real Jesus is rightly seen here.

Heb. 1:9

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So as with so many things all things must be put in the mix to get the final result.

While love is the crowning jewel of the Christian life, can we in a blanket fashion separate it from strong action? Perhaps it is wisdom that can connect kindness and judgment together into a more perfect understanding of Jesus and his ways?

[votivesoul]

Altho I would generally speaking agree that gifts flow from love we must be very careful here. Was Jesus judgmental when he called the Pharisees two fold children of Hell? When he called Herod an old fox?

Was he judgmental when he killed Anannias and his wife?

Was he being legalistic when he expected the disciples at Sardis works to be perfect? The Ladoceans to be on fire?

Jesus was sometimes very kind in his dealings with people. Other times he could be terrible! Think of him overthrowing tables and driving the thieves and robbers from his Fathers house!

The real Jesus is rightly seen here.

Heb. 1:9

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So as with so many things all things must be put in the mix to get the final result.

While love is the crowning jewel of the Christian life, can we in a blanket fashion separate it from strong action? Perhaps it is wisdom that can connect kindness and judgment together into a more perfect understanding of Jesus and his ways?

:thumbsup

[Pressing-On]

And yet, no real-time, living account in Acts of Mark 16:17 being fulfilled in the lives of all believers. So, again, who is Jesus talking to? Every believer for all time everywhere? Or to His apostles?


I don't feel the need to respond to anything you have written except for this. Why are you taking the same view as the Jehovah's Witnesses?

And why would you take that view while being an "Admin" on an Apostolic Forum.

This is just very weird to me, and disturbing.

[Pressing-On]

Regarding the emboldened text above:

WHAT?

Saints in the kingdom of God get and die from cancer. Deaf saints abound, as well. Are these then anti-Kingdom because they end up diseased and died or are never recovered from their deafness? Jesus isn't involved with them because their health concerns didn't leave when He showed up in their life?

Or maybe you think He left and forsook them because their so-called "anti-Kingdom" maladies made Him vacate for some unknown, un-Scriptural reason?

One wonders, then, when does this anti-Kingdom nonsense have to leave? Because if Jesus is involved in your life, and you are yet prattling this trash, then clearly it doesn't have to leave just because Jesus was brought into your situation.
I refer to the point that the Gospels say, except for those with unbelief, He "healed them all."

[Ehud]

I refer to the point that the Gospels say, except for those with unbelief, He "healed them all."

Do you heal them all? If not, how does that square with what you are implying this to mean? I ask in sincerity because a gentleman I attend church with says almost the exact same thing, yet can't answer that question except to say we must be missing something.

[Pressing-On]

Do you heal them all? If not, how does that square with what you are implying this to mean? I ask in sincerity because a gentleman I attend church with says almost the exact same thing, yet can't answer that question except to say we must be missing something.

I believe that today, we don't expect everyone to be healed. The Catholic Church is very big on suffering for Christ's sake.

As a matter of fact, many who have posted on this forum including the previous forum don't teach or believe that everyone will be or should be filled with the Holy Spirit/Ghost as the Apostles were. That is false doctrine and it is unbelief. It is also interesting, in that, every single person who holds that belief speaks in tongues or has spoken in tongues. Crazy, IMO.

How does God work in that environment? He finds those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

I have prayed for myself and have been healed, many times. I have had others pray for me and been healed. I believe in healing. But, I can't make others believe or have any level of faith. It is up to the individual.

Only knowing my experiences, I cannot answer for every person. That is God's business. Otherwise we end up as Job - vascillating between faith and doubt or like his three friends - narcissists thinking we have all the answers.

[mfblume]

Was it not previously argued that operation of gifts is independent of moral character or doctrinal orthodoxy?

You have a point, agreed. I actually thought of that later after I wrote it. And you confirmed it.

I guess I should adjust my point to mean that people without compassion will make a mess in the kingdom should they operate the gifts, as the Corinthians obviously were. Nevertheless, compassionless Christianity would also see lack of even care to use them. I've seen much of that, to the extent that the wines who focus more on condemnation NEVER have them in operation, and mock those who do saying it is not of God. Like the oneness condemned who thinks a trinitarian does not get the REAL Holy Ghost.

[mfblume]

Altho I would generally speaking agree that gifts flow from love we must be very careful here. Was Jesus judgmental when he called the Pharisees two fold children of Hell? When he called Herod an old fox?

I never said that we cannot be firm and angry with a cause, and compassion does not mean wishy washy. That should be a given. Does compassion necessarily mean being wishy washy? No. Also not sure why you think about the need to not be condemning with the woman at the well with Jesus harshly addressing Pharisees. Are you implying that we CAN be condemning someone like the woman at the well for God showing us she was an adulteress. Jesus was actually kind to an adulteress, though firm in telling her to sin no more. It's the religious people he was angry with for being hypocrites. In fact the one time he used a gift negatively was to curse a fig tree that represented the hypocrisy of the religious people.

[mfblume]

And yet, no real-time, living account in Acts of Mark 16:17 being fulfilled in the lives of all believers. So, again, who is Jesus talking to? Every believer for all time everywhere? Or to His apostles?

As regards 1 Corinthians 1:5-7, you might read "so that ye come behind in no gift" as a statement of purpose, not a statement of reality. Clearly, we know Corinth was a mess in need of severe rebuke and censure.

Later in chapter 4, Paul tells them when he comes, he is going to investigate their power, not their speech or knowledge, because knowledge puffs up and the Kingdom of God is not in word but in power. Clearly, Paul had major doubts about how much power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit was actually occurring in Corinth at that time.

Finally, as it relates to 1 Corinthians 12:11, there is no doubt there, that God gives the gifts according to His own will, and after a description of these gifts and teaching about what it means to be the Body of Christ, and explaining that God placed apostles, then prophets, then teachers, and etc. into that Body, the first thing Paul rhetorically asks them is "Are all apostles? Are all prophets?" (1 Corinthians 12:28-29). So, when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit, is it not possible Paul is keeping within his own established elsewhere context of signs and wonders and divers miracles chiefly pertaining to the ministry of Apostles?

Paul was teaching the entire congregation at Corinth about the gifts and it appears by the way he spoke in chapter 14 in correction that everyone was involved in the disarray, not just the pastor and elders. And not once does Paul say the average believer should not be operating in them at all after making the indication that they were. Was the congregation entirely made up of apostles? Or did Paul say you who are not apostles should not be doing these things? No. He said they were doing fine when it came to the gifts in and of themselves. They were of God. But he said they were not using compassion and seemingly used them due to wanting to be seen. This was a letter to the church, not the leaders. The note about all being apostles etc, is not to say only apostles should be operating, but to say the ministries are gifts as much as the nine noted in chapter 12, and not everyone is an apostle any more than everyone operates the gift of miracles.

[Ehud]

I believe that today, we don't expect everyone to be healed. The Catholic Church is very big on suffering for Christ's sake.

As a matter of fact, many who have posted on this forum including the previous forum don't teach or believe that everyone will be or should be filled with the Holy Spirit/Ghost as the Apostles were. That is false doctrine and it is unbelief. It is also interesting, in that, every single person who holds that belief speaks in tongues or has spoken in tongues. Crazy, IMO.

How does God work in that environment? He finds those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

I have prayed for myself and have been healed, many times. I have had others pray for me and been healed. I believe in healing. But, I can't make others believe or have any level of faith. It is up to the individual.

Only knowing my experiences, I cannot answer for every person. That is God's business. Otherwise we end up as Job - vascillating between faith and doubt or like his three friends - narcissists thinking we have all the answers.

Thank you, sister. :tiphat

[Nicodemus1968]

I believe that today, we don't expect everyone to be healed. The Catholic Church is very big on suffering for Christ's sake.

As a matter of fact, many who have posted on this forum including the previous forum don't teach or believe that everyone will be or should be filled with the Holy Spirit/Ghost as the Apostles were. That is false doctrine and it is unbelief. It is also interesting, in that, every single person who holds that belief speaks in tongues or has spoken in tongues. Crazy, IMO.

How does God work in that environment? He finds those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

I have prayed for myself and have been healed, many times. I have had others pray for me and been healed. I believe in healing. But, I can't make others believe or have any level of faith. It is up to the individual.

Only knowing my experiences, I cannot answer for every person. That is God's business. Otherwise we end up as Job - vascillating between faith and doubt or like his three friends - narcissists thinking we have all the answers.

I’m going to agree with you. This is my personal belief right now, if others don’t believe it, your more than welcome to your own set of faith.

Actually, n-David and myself talked about this a couple months ago or so. And we talked about why those that come for prayer do not get the healing they need. I said what I have been told and that is they must’ve not of had faith! N-David said he believes that was a cop out, and that really stuck with for the past couple months. I just spend a couple days with my Elder who in my opinion is a pioneer of faith, he preached all over the world, he has seen many miracles, preached crusades with other great pioneers of the faith. And as I sat with him in a motel room and his body completely shutting down on him, kidneys wont function properly, heart operating at only 30%, he still has the strength to talk about how good God has been. I was there for a couple hours and as we talked about the goodness of God right before my eyes his whole presence changed, and from when I walked in the hotel room to when I left it was like night from day. He felt better, he was moving around, matter of fact he’s driving 1400 miles to teach his grandson a bible study. God is good!

I said that to say, that elder taught me something I will hold on to by the grace of God. We talked about healing, we talked about why so many today are not receiving their healing. And I told him what I believe and in his kind way he directed me to a more perfect way. He directed me in this way of faith,

James 5:14 KJVS
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James 5:15 KJVS
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

First off, its the individual with the issue of sickness to call for the elder of the church. I read in a book by a pioneer of Pentecost said the faith you have to come up to the platform is faith enough to heal you!
After the individual asks for prayer its now up to the individual doing the prayer. I can anoint him, I can call on the name of the Lord, and if I don't have faith then that individual will not get there healing. It’s on the ministry or the individual being called on in prayer to have the faith that God can heal.

There are two reasons why where not getting the healing we have been promised.

1- There is no faith from the individual praying the prayer
2- The individual with the issue of sickness is being afflicted

James 5:13 KJVS
Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

If your sickness is an affliction from God, God is trying to get your attention. Then it doesn’t say call for the elders, it says let that person pray.

I will never be the same again. As part of the body its my responsibility to be available to the spirit. When the need is there we can respond through the Holy Ghost. It’s not ability its all about availability.

Don’t lose your desire to see the miracles of the Bible! Jesus said, “greater works” I understand he could’ve been talking about a soul receiving the Holy Ghost. Yet, as we come to God as a little child we need to still have that belief that as the church, as an individual with the power of the Holy Ghost we can be used in miracles. We cannot limit the spirit, we cannot limit years ago to today. We need to know as long as there is a need, God will use an individual, those of us that have the Holy Ghost, is the same spirit Paul had, its the same spirit Peter had, its the same spirit John had as they were boiling him in the pot. We have that! Through your prayer of faith you can speak peace into a situation, you can pray for the blinded eyes and they will open. We can speak to a demon and they will be casted out, we can see the dead raised to life.

[mfblume]

Great thoughts, all. I lean toward the need for MORE of these gifts in operation. We can intellectualize them away or say they're not for us today, or whatever. But God set them in the church and so long as there is a church they're there.... just like apostles, prophets, pastors, etc.

[Pressing-On]

Good post, Nicodemus!

I totally agree, Brother Blume!

[Esaias]

Maybe it isn't a matter of people using the gifts in various (inappropriate) ways, but rather God using people in various ways and then those people jumping to the wrong conclusions about their own importance (or lack thereof)?

[Esaias]

The types of people Esaias mentioned are lawless people, some of whom were in the Corinthian church at the time of Paul's writing, the church which it is believed literally "came behind in no gift". So, if I am understanding Esaias correctly, how is it that if you lack compassion, God can't use you because you're a legalist who condemns, but if you're a sinner of a different stripe but are generally speaking, compassionate, God can use you just fine?

:thumbsup

One the one hand, we have the idea that the gifts are lacking because people are not measuring up to high standards. Then on the other hand we have the idea that the gifts are disconnected from and not dependent on any such moral, ethical, or doctrinal standards.

Which seems to me to be a bit of a paradox. If gifts are not dependent on orthodoxy or morality or spirituality (!), then there ought to be no lack at all of charismata in today's church world.

On the other hand, if there IS a connection - that "no man can do these works except he be sent by God" - then either a lot of "gifts" simply aren't or we need to seriously re-evaluate our entire understanding of the whole subject.

And I think sometimes we generally forget that the gifts are "operations/working of the Spirit" not operations or workings of the individual. God does what He wants when He wants how He wants using whomever He wants. If gifts are lacking it may just be due to the fact that at THAT time God doesn't want to do that. Perhaps to remind an assembly just how dependent they need to be on the PRESENT manifest presence of God.

Which reminds me - if the manifestation of the Spirit is literally the manifesting presence of Jehovah God, then it would seem incongruous for people not in line with the will of God in at least some fundamental, basic sense, to be running around "manifesting the gifts".

[mfblume]

Maybe it isn't a matter of people using the gifts in various (inappropriate) ways, but rather God using people in various ways and then those people jumping to the wrong conclusions about their own importance (or lack thereof)?

Gift operation certainly has no bearing on anyone's importance. But there is an importance in operating one gift above another in certain settings.

1 cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

[Ehud]

...

And I think sometimes we generally forget that the gifts are "operations/working of the Spirit" not operations or workings of the individual. God does what He wants when He wants how He wants using whomever He wants. If gifts are lacking it may just be due to the fact that at THAT time God doesn't want to do that. Perhaps to remind an assembly just how dependent they need to be on the PRESENT manifest presence of God.

...

:scoregood

[mfblume]

:thumbsup

One the one hand, we have the idea that the gifts are lacking because people are not measuring up to high standards. Then on the other hand we have the idea that the gifts are disconnected from and not dependent on any such moral, ethical, or doctrinal standards.

Which seems to me to be a bit of a paradox. If gifts are not dependent on orthodoxy or morality or spirituality (!), then there ought to be no lack at all of charismata in today's church world.

On the other hand, if there IS a connection - that "no man can do these works except he be sent by God" - then either a lot of "gifts" simply aren't or we need to seriously re-evaluate our entire understanding of the whole subject.

And I think sometimes we generally forget that the gifts are "operations/working of the Spirit" not operations or workings of the individual. God does what He wants when He wants how He wants using whomever He wants. If gifts are lacking it may just be due to the fact that at THAT time God doesn't want to do that. Perhaps to remind an assembly just how dependent they need to be on the PRESENT manifest presence of God.

Which reminds me - if the manifestation of the Spirit is literally the manifesting presence of Jehovah God, then it would seem incongruous for people not in line with the will of God in at least some fundamental, basic sense, to be running around "manifesting the gifts".

So many things to consider.

2 Timothy 1:6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

There is also a degree of faith required. Gifts are simply spoken against in so many congregations, that if one had one they would not use it! The variables are endless.

[Ron]

You have a point, agreed. I actually thought of that later after I wrote it. And you confirmed it.

I guess I should adjust my point to mean that people without compassion will make a mess in the kingdom should they operate the gifts, as the Corinthians obviously were. Nevertheless, compassionless Christianity would also see lack of even care to use them. I've seen much of that, to the extent that the wines who focus more on condemnation NEVER have them in operation, and mock those who do saying it is not of God. Like the oneness condemned who thinks a trinitarian does not get the REAL Holy Ghost.

The Gifts of God are without repentance tis true, and they are powerful, however they are only as good as the life lived behind the Gift.
Case in point. I was engaged in the eighties to a wonderful woman from Mississippi. I was going to move down where she was but immigration in Nebraska lost my application. The job fell through, and things cooled. She wasn't interested in moving to Canada .
I fell into bitterness and struggled in my walk with God for two years.
Due to my struggle an evil spirit was troubling me. I wasn't possessed but oppressed.
I met a backslider at another Saints home, who wasn't home at the time. He started complaining about the Church, I started walking away saying I was not interested in hearing it. He yelled out, what would you know, you are possessed. I shrugged him off. He obviously saw a demon oppressing me but his life wasn't deep enough to discern the difference between oppression and possession.
I eventually got things sorted out with God the demon left and I got clearer perception on the will of God
It wasn't the will of God for me to go to the US.
I call it the gifts being tainted by the flesh. One needs to get the flesh out of the way for the Gifts to operate properly.

JMHO

[votivesoul]

Why are you taking the same view as the Jehovah's Witnesses?

Apparently you know more about what JW's believe than I do.

And why would you take that view while being an "Admin" on an Apostolic Forum.

This is just very weird to me, and disturbing.

And here you regularly accuse Esaias and others of being tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy theorists? Apparently you don't mind dipping your toes into the same waters when it suits you.

[votivesoul]

I refer to the point that the Gospels say, except for those with unbelief, He "healed them all."

Referring to something the Gospels declare doesn't mean anything. You have to correctly interpret what the Gospels declare and fit it within the greater framework of the entire canon of the Bible and the mission of Christ. You can't just say Jesus "healed them all" and presume to walk away with a mic drop like you owned your opponent.

And worse than that, you really shouldn't use a verse of the Bible you clearly misunderstand as a justification for making up the claptrap you posted about cancer and deafness causing people with cancer and deafness to be anti-Kingdom or imply Jesus isn't involved with them because if He was, they wouldn't have cancer or deafness.

You reap what you sow, Sister, and will be judged by every vain thing you say.

[votivesoul]

I believe that today, we don't expect everyone to be healed. The Catholic Church is very big on suffering for Christ's sake.

As a matter of fact, many who have posted on this forum including the previous forum don't teach or believe that everyone will be or should be filled with the Holy Spirit/Ghost as the Apostles were. That is false doctrine and it is unbelief. It is also interesting, in that, every single person who holds that belief speaks in tongues or has spoken in tongues. Crazy, IMO.

How does God work in that environment? He finds those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

I have prayed for myself and have been healed, many times. I have had others pray for me and been healed. I believe in healing. But, I can't make others believe or have any level of faith. It is up to the individual.

Only knowing my experiences, I cannot answer for every person. That is God's business. Otherwise we end up as Job - vascillating between faith and doubt or like his three friends - narcissists thinking we have all the answers.

Ehud might be satisfied with this, but I am not. Note the emboldened text above. You have been healed "many times". How about 100% of the time? Has everyone you've ever prayed for been healed? Note, too, that you didn't actually answer his opening question.

[votivesoul]

Paul was teaching the entire congregation at Corinth about the gifts and it appears by the way he spoke in chapter 14 in correction that everyone was involved in the disarray, not just the pastor and elders. And not once does Paul say the average believer should not be operating in them at all after making the indication that they were. Was the congregation entirely made up of apostles? Or did Paul say you who are not apostles should not be doing these things? No. He said they were doing fine when it came to the gifts in and of themselves. They were of God. But he said they were not using compassion and seemingly used them due to wanting to be seen. This was a letter to the church, not the leaders. The note about all being apostles etc, is not to say only apostles should be operating, but to say the ministries are gifts as much as the nine noted in chapter 12, and not everyone is an apostle any more than everyone operates the gift of miracles.

While Paul was teaching the entire congregation, we have to pay attention to what it was he was actually teaching them about. Note 1 Corinthians 12:1,

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

You see that "gifts" is italicized in the KJV, that is, supplied by the translators, which means it's not in the Greek text. Regarding "spiritual", it is the Greek word πνευματικῶν or pneumatikon, from πνευματικός or pneumatikos.

This is key. The word is not χαρισμάτων or charismaton. That word doesn't appear until verse 4. So, in verse 1, Paul is not yet talking about the gifts/special endowments of the grace of the Spirit. He is talking about something else that is spiritual, but not the gifts. What then, is that something?

That something is particular brethren.

Take "gifts" out of verse 1 (since it's not there) and you have:

Now concerning spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Paul is teaching the entire congregation about certain brethren in the church who have been endowed with the charismaton of the Spirit, that is, they are spiritual, i.e. they act in a more supernatural way than everyone else. We know this because pneumatikon is an adjective modifying the noun adelphoi, that is, "brothers".

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/12-1.htm

Also see the ESV footnote on 12:1 here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+12%3A1&version=ESV

Paul doesn't want the entire congregation in Corinth to be ignorant of, that is to say, to not be in the know about, spiritual brethren in the church who experience charismata.

Look at the next several verses:

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

In Corinth, and elsewhere, Gentiles routinely consulted priests who interpreted oracles who prayed to idols or shrine spirits after receiving payment by the supplicants, who then spoke ecstatically and often in unintellible speech, thus the need for interpretation, the most famous of which is the Oracle at Delphi, near Mt. Parnassus by the Gulf of Corinth.

Paul wanted to make certain the church was aware that these spiritual brethren who were endowed with charismata were not pagan oracles or priests of pagan shrines speaking by just any "spirit", but were truly being endowed by the Spirit of God.

And one way the entire congregation could know if a brother was truly spiritual is that, when he spoke, he would never curse Jesus. Clearly then some in Corinth were doing just that, thus showing they were not spiritual brethren, but false prophets. But other truly spiritual brethren, when they spoke by the Spirit, always affirmed that Jesus is Lord, thereby showing that they were of God.

Paul is giving the entire congregation a litmus test here, to judge the brethren in the church who make a claim to charismatic spirituality.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Paul now teaches the congregation that when these spiritual brethren experience their gifts that the entirety of their experiences are coming from the same source: the one and only Spirit of the Lord God, regardless of the differences in their gifts, administrations, and operations.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

I know the tendency is to read this and think "every man" means every saint in every church everywhere for all time. But that's a mistake. Every man here is a subset of the superset spiritual brethren. We know doctrinally this because God gives the gifts of the Spirit unevenly according to His own will, to one this gift, to a different one, that gift, and etc. (verses 8-11). And we know this experientially, because we all know that not every saint in every church, even our own churches, experience any of the charismata.

So, then, as we read the rest of what Paul has to say on the matter, we have to keep in mind that he is teaching the entire congregation, and by extension, the rest of the churches thereafter, what to make of spiritual brethren who have been endowed with special graces of the Holy Spirit, and how to truly know who is spiritual (always affirm the Lordship of Christ), and who is not (calls Christ accursed) and that, by the time Paul concludes in 1 Corinthians 14:37, if any of these brethren in the church think of themselves as being numbered among the spiritual ones endowed by the Holy Spirit with charismata, they must acknowledge that what he has written are the commandments of the Lord.

So, if anyone does not acknowledge all that Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are commandments of the Lord, that brother isn't one of the spiritual ones mentioned in 12:1, regardless of what they think or feel or say.

[votivesoul]

I’m going to agree with you. This is my personal belief right now, if others don’t believe it, your more than welcome to your own set of faith.

Actually, n-David and myself talked about this a couple months ago or so. And we talked about why those that come for prayer do not get the healing they need. I said what I have been told and that is they must’ve not of had faith! N-David said he believes that was a cop out, and that really stuck with for the past couple months. I just spend a couple days with my Elder who in my opinion is a pioneer of faith, he preached all over the world, he has seen many miracles, preached crusades with other great pioneers of the faith. And as I sat with him in a motel room and his body completely shutting down on him, kidneys wont function properly, heart operating at only 30%, he still has the strength to talk about how good God has been. I was there for a couple hours and as we talked about the goodness of God right before my eyes his whole presence changed, and from when I walked in the hotel room to when I left it was like night from day. He felt better, he was moving around, matter of fact he’s driving 1400 miles to teach his grandson a bible study. God is good!

I said that to say, that elder taught me something I will hold on to by the grace of God. We talked about healing, we talked about why so many today are not receiving their healing. And I told him what I believe and in his kind way he directed me to a more perfect way. He directed me in this way of faith,

James 5:14 KJVS
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James 5:15 KJVS
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

First off, its the individual with the issue of sickness to call for the elder of the church. I read in a book by a pioneer of Pentecost said the faith you have to come up to the platform is faith enough to heal you!
After the individual asks for prayer its now up to the individual doing the prayer. I can anoint him, I can call on the name of the Lord, and if I don't have faith then that individual will not get there healing. It’s on the ministry or the individual being called on in prayer to have the faith that God can heal.

There are two reasons why where not getting the healing we have been promised.

1- There is no faith from the individual praying the prayer
2- The individual with the issue of sickness is being afflicted

James 5:13 KJVS
Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

If your sickness is an affliction from God, God is trying to get your attention. Then it doesn’t say call for the elders, it says let that person pray.

I will never be the same again. As part of the body its my responsibility to be available to the spirit. When the need is there we can respond through the Holy Ghost. It’s not ability its all about availability.

Don’t lose your desire to see the miracles of the Bible! Jesus said, “greater works” I understand he could’ve been talking about a soul receiving the Holy Ghost. Yet, as we come to God as a little child we need to still have that belief that as the church, as an individual with the power of the Holy Ghost we can be used in miracles. We cannot limit the spirit, we cannot limit years ago to today. We need to know as long as there is a need, God will use an individual, those of us that have the Holy Ghost, is the same spirit Paul had, its the same spirit Peter had, its the same spirit John had as they were boiling him in the pot. We have that! Through your prayer of faith you can speak peace into a situation, you can pray for the blinded eyes and they will open. We can speak to a demon and they will be casted out, we can see the dead raised to life.

I'm glad you brought up James 5:14 because I was going to if no one else did.

Note what it does not say:

Is any sick among you? Call for whoever you want in the church to lay hands on you and anoint you with oil in the name of the Lord.

It specifies the presbyterous or eldership of the assembly. Why? Because in order to become a mature saint, an elder, you have to pass under the five gifts of grace mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 and grow up, so that you may be equipped for the work of the ministry for the edification of the saints, that is, you yourself have been graced by the Lord and have entered into your vocation as apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and/or teacher and need to begin to walk in that calling and reproduce in other saints what was formed in you.

So, no, don't just call for whoever you want to lay hands on you and anoint you in the name of the Lord. Call for the mature men gifted with the grace of the Lord Jesus to heal.

[votivesoul]

Great thoughts, all. I lean toward the need for MORE of these gifts in operation. We can intellectualize them away or say they're not for us today, or whatever. But God set them in the church and so long as there is a church they're there.... just like apostles, prophets, pastors, etc.

I agree. However, great harm is being done, in my opinion, when false expectations are generated in the hearts of saints by misconstruals of the Scriptures. If a saint has not been endowed with a gift of the Spirit, or a grace gift, and yet are nevertheless told they can and should operate in the gifts of the Spirit or as a grace gift (because of Mark 1:17-18 or John 14:12, or etc.), and they fail because God has not so endowed them, it crushes their faith.

It is better, in my opinion, to teach saints how to rely on the Lord Jesus for the supply of all their needs, and to be led by the Spirit as a son of God, and if they have that reliance and that leading, they will know when they are endowed by God to operate and administer the gifts God eventually does give them.

But otherwise, to just allow them, if you will, to willy-nilly go about hoping to be used and then not be used no matter how much they try, because it's not God's timing or His will for that person, it will leave them heartbroken and discouraged.

[votivesoul]

:thumbsup

One the one hand, we have the idea that the gifts are lacking because people are not measuring up to high standards. Then on the other hand we have the idea that the gifts are disconnected from and not dependent on any such moral, ethical, or doctrinal standards.

Which seems to me to be a bit of a paradox. If gifts are not dependent on orthodoxy or morality or spirituality (!), then there ought to be no lack at all of charismata in today's church world....

Hence the charismatic movement, where everyone is your personal prophet and shepherd and covering and everyone has a word for you!

[votivesoul]

So many things to consider.

2 Timothy 1:6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

There is also a degree of faith required. Gifts are simply spoken against in so many congregations, that if one had one they would not use it! The variables are endless.

I'm glad you brought this up. Paul said there was a specific moment in time when Timothy was endowed with a charisma of God as Paul laid hands on him. It wasn't the gift of the Holy Spirit Paul refers to here, but a gift of that Holy Spirit.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_timothy/1-6.htm

Might not this be a precedent to follow and obey? That is, to not expect anyone in the church to randomly have a charisma of the Spirit given out to them unless and except there is a specific moment in time that the recipient can look back at and acknowledge, perhaps when they were christened and commissioned for ministry by the elders, or etc. (E.g. 1 Timothy 4:14, noting "gift" there is likewise a charisma of the Spirit; See https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_timothy/1-6.htm)?

And that, unless and until that specific moment in time occurs, and it becomes clear to both the recipient and the elders of the church, to not allow just anyone to go off trying to operate and administer any form of the various NT gifts?

I mean, you can't rekindle the flame of something that wasn't there, to begin with.

And you certainly see in the Gospels that until Christ gave His apostles authority to heal all manner of diseases and to cast out devils and preach the Kingdom of God, they literally had no right to even try.

[Pressing-On]

Apparently you know more about what JW's believe than I do.



And here you regularly accuse Esaias and others of being tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy theorists? Apparently you don't mind dipping your toes into the same waters when it suits you.

I asked a simple question.

No, tin-foil hat here. Because you are on record saying:

So, even though she has confessed to being Oneness, knowing I am not Oneness, knowing I believe the Oneness position to be flawed,

The worst part is that you asked this female poster to think and pray about her oneness position!

Please understand, I am not challenging you, or saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to open up a horizon of new possibilities, to give you something to ponder and even pray about, if you should like to do so.

An Admin on an Apostolic forum, asking a Oneness person to open up a horizon of new possibilities that they could be wrong.

Astonishing!

[Pressing-On]

Referring to something the Gospels declare doesn't mean anything. You have to correctly interpret what the Gospels declare and fit it within the greater framework of the entire canon of the Bible and the mission of Christ. You can't just say Jesus "healed them all" and presume to walk away with a mic drop like you owned your opponent.

And worse than that, you really shouldn't use a verse of the Bible you clearly misunderstand as a justification for making up the claptrap you posted about cancer and deafness causing people with cancer and deafness to be anti-Kingdom or imply Jesus isn't involved with them because if He was, they wouldn't have cancer or deafness.

You reap what you sow, Sister, and will be judged by every vain thing you say.

I never said or implied what you have in bold.

Jesus was light and darkness has to flee. Very simple. That should be our focus and not all the doubtful negativity, which gets us nowhere and gives us nothing.

[Pressing-On]

Ehud might be satisfied with this, but I am not. Note the emboldened text above. You have been healed "many times". How about 100% of the time? Has everyone you've ever prayed for been healed? Note, too, that you didn't actually answer his opening question.

I am glad you brought that up. One thing we haven’t discussed is “timing”.

I believe that we say and do things because we believe more than we say and do things because we are directed by the Holy Ghost.

In the Book of Acts, it appears they did more by the direction of the Holy Ghost, than they did just because they had faith.

So, yes, every person I have prayed for has received healing. Why? Because I don’t lay hands on or pray for a person unless God tells me to.

[Ehud]

...

In the Kingdom of God, there is no cancer, no deafness, etc. when you bring Jesus into a situation, anything anti-Kingdom has to leave.

...

I refer to the point that the Gospels say, except for those with unbelief, He "healed them all."

I believe that today, we don't expect everyone to be healed. The Catholic Church is very big on suffering for Christ's sake.

...

you posted about cancer and deafness causing people with cancer and deafness to be anti-Kingdom or imply Jesus isn't involved with them because if He was, they wouldn't have cancer or deafness.
I never said or implied what you have in bold.

Jesus was light and darkness has to flee.

...

...

So, yes, every person I have prayed for has received healing. Why? Because I don’t lay hands on or pray for a person unless God tells me to.

By stating that you don't lay hands on or pray for a person unless God tells you to, aren't you admitting that either healing isn't for everyone or that the sick are in false doctrine and unbelief?

[Michael The Disciple]

So getting back to the topic of the thread:

Originally Posted by Esaias View Post


One the one hand, we have the idea that the gifts are lacking because people are not measuring up to high standards. Then on the other hand we have the idea that the gifts are disconnected from and not dependent on any such moral, ethical, or doctrinal standards.

Which seems to me to be a bit of a paradox. If gifts are not dependent on orthodoxy or morality or spirituality (!), then there ought to be no lack at all of charismata in today's church world....

So for Chris Reed or anyone else to be counted as A PROPHET......how much truth must they believe in and teach? Another way of putting it would be how much doctrinal error can they have and be a real PROPHET?

[Pressing-On]

By stating that you don't lay hands on or pray for a person unless God tells you to, aren't you admitting that either healing isn't for everyone or that the sick are in false doctrine and unbelief?

No, I am simply sharing my personal experience. There are others being ministered to besides me in the room. Everyone wasn’t being healed by Paul alone.

[Esaias]

So getting back to the topic of the thread:


So for Chris Reed or anyone else to be counted as A PROPHET......how much truth must they believe in and teach? Another way of putting it would be how much doctrinal error can they have and be a real PROPHET?

What do the Scriptures say on the subject?

[mfblume]

Adam Clarke noted 1 Cor 12:1 may be referring to spiritual people, but he noted the context seems to favour the gifts in that verse.

But we do know that Chater 7:1 indicated that they had sent a letter to him about various issues, and 12:1 makes reference to another item on their list in that letter. It may simply mean SPIRITUAL THINGS, rather than people.

Will check this out some more. But Jesus said those who believe would have the supernatural manifestations follow them. Not just leaders.

[mfblume]

Hence the charismatic movement, where everyone is your personal prophet and shepherd and covering and everyone has a word for you!

...And that movement is seriously a problem. There is the teaching that everyone should literally prophesy. And that is not what was stated in 1 Cor 14.

[mfblume]

You see that "gifts" is italicized in the KJV, that is, supplied by the translators, which means it's not in the Greek text. Regarding "spiritual", it is the Greek word πνευματικῶν or pneumatikon, from πνευματικός or pneumatikos.

This is key. The word is not χαρισμάτων or charismaton. That word doesn't appear until verse 4. So, in verse 1, Paul is not yet talking about the gifts/special endowments of the grace of the Spirit. He is talking about something else that is spiritual, but not the gifts. What then, is that something?

That something is particular brethren.

Take "gifts" out of verse 1

But the same instance is found in 14:1 and 14: 12 and the word GIFTS is in italics, not in the Greek, and it would not make sense to not be speaking about the gifts, because of context in chapter 13, and the rest of 14.

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1 Cor 14: 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.



I think that was the basis for the translators doing the same in 12:1.

Read them without GIFTS in italics.

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual , but rather that ye may prophesy.

1 Cor 14: 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual , seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

[mfblume]

Votivesoul, just wondering. Do you believe all 120 spoke in tongues in Acts 2, or just the twelve?

[Michael The Disciple]

What do the Scriptures say on the subject?

It is my opinion that a true prophet would understand the foundation doctrine given by the apostles. That they would bear witness of or point one to that truth. as well as having a major and consistent public prophetic gift.

Ephesians 4:11-15

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

This is what I would expect from a prophet. While I do believe anyone with the Holy Ghost could have a gift of prophecy I dont think it means they stand in the office of a prophet.

[mfblume]

This is what I would expect from a prophet. While I do believe anyone with the Holy Ghost could have a gift of prophecy I dont think it means they stand in the office of a prophet.


Amen.

[diakonos]

It is my opinion that a true prophet would understand the foundation doctrine given by the apostles. That they would bear witness of or point one to that truth. as well as having a major and consistent public prophetic gift.

Ephesians 4:11-15



This is what I would expect from a prophet. While I do believe anyone with the Holy Ghost could have a gift of prophecy I dont think it means they stand in the office of a prophet.

He means post trib and beards

[TJJJ]

Let's see, isn't CR the one who went to Liberal and told the preterist pastor there that he believed preterism to try to get the church....? And then booked out?

Oh year, but he is a prophet that can tell your brother's name.

Dats right.

But, anybody that can be fooled by dualism, William Branham, and Sis Charlotes escort can be fooled by anything.

[diakonos]

Let's see, isn't CR the one who went to Liberal and told the preterist pastor there that he believed preterism to try to get the church....? And then booked out?

Oh year, but he is a prophet that can tell your brother's name.

Dats right.

But, anybody that can be fooled by dualism, William Branham, and Sis Charlotes escort can be fooled by anything.

Went to liberal?

[TJJJ]

Went to liberal?

Yep

[TJJJ]

Let's just say that I am underwhelmed with the "Prophetic" utterance that I heard, and even moreso with those who have been suckered in by it.

But, what can you expect?

[Michael The Disciple]

Let's see, isn't CR the one who went to Liberal and told the preterist pastor there that he believed preterism to try to get the church....? And then booked out?

Explain.

[mfblume]

It's not about overwhelmed or underwhelmed.

[diakonos]

Reminded me of psychic John Edward.

[Michael The Disciple]

I stand by my first impression for now anyway that I thought it was impressive. I have never seen it in that fashion among Apostolics altho its what made Branham famous.

[votivesoul]

I asked a simple question.

No, tin-foil hat here. Because you are on record saying:



The worst part is that you asked this female poster to think and pray about her oneness position!



An Admin on an Apostolic forum, asking a Oneness person to open up a horizon of new possibilities that they could be wrong.

Astonishing!

Love bears no records of wrong???

But in reality, I didn't ask Amanah to reconsider her Oneness view of the Godhead. I asked her to reconsider the alleged difference in anointing she felt from a Holy-Spirit filled Trinity believing church meeting she was in versus a Holy-Spirit filled Oneness church meeting she was in since such experiences are subjective.

And asking someone to reconsider something isn't a sin, last time I checked, since it behooves us all to reconsider, from time to time, to keep ourselves on our spiritual toes.

Is this what's been sticking in your craw the whole time? You misunderstood and you've had it out for me ever since?

I have never once attempted to convert someone out of Oneness, here, or in my own personal life. I have no plans to ever do so.

[votivesoul]

I never said or implied what you have in bold.

Jesus was light and darkness has to flee. Very simple. That should be our focus and not all the doubtful negativity, which gets us nowhere and gives us nothing.

You didn't write this?

In the Kingdom of God, there is no cancer, no deafness, etc. when you bring Jesus into a situation, anything anti-Kingdom has to leave.

You sure did. People are in the Kingdom of God. These in the Kingdom of God people sometimes get cancer and die from it, or are born deaf, or go deaf and never recover their hearing. They don't get healed, so, by logical conclusion, if they have cancer or are deaf, then they cannot be in the Kingdom of God, because if Jesus had been brought into their situation, their cancer and deafness would have to leave.

But and if, their cancer or deafness doesn't leave, then Jesus isn't in their situation, according to the above, which you posted.

Now, if you'd like to explain it better or clarify it more fully, or show how what you wrote ought not to be understood exactly the way I have done so, or a give us a full-on recantation of your words, then the floor is yours.

[votivesoul]

So, yes, every person I have prayed for has received healing. Why? Because I don’t lay hands on or pray for a person unless God tells me to.

Sister, I sincerely hope for your sake you are telling the truth.

[votivesoul]

No, I am simply sharing my personal experience. There are others being ministered to besides me in the room. Everyone wasn’t being healed by Paul alone.

On the island of Malta they were:

Acts 28:8-9,

8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed...

[votivesoul]

...And that movement is seriously a problem. There is the teaching that everyone should literally prophesy. And that is not what was stated in 1 Cor 14.

Exactly. Massive abuse. But such abuses happen in other movements, too.

[votivesoul]

But the same instance is found in 14:1 and 14: 12 and the word GIFTS is in italics, not in the Greek, and it would not make sense to not be speaking about the gifts, because of context in chapter 13, and the rest of 14.

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1 Cor 14: 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

The Greek for "desire" in 1 Corinthians 14:1 is ζηλοῦτε or zeloute, from the Greek word zelos, that is to say, our word "zealous". In 1 Corinthians 14:12, we see the word zealous, from ζηλωταί, or zelotai, from zelos as well, but note a difference:

In 1 Corinthians 14:1, zeloute is a verb. In 1 Corinthians 14:12, zelotai is a noun.

Also in 1 Corinthians 14:1, prior to spiritual, or pneumatika (an adjective not a noun), we have the definite article τὰ or ta indicating the English word "the".

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/14-1.htm

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/14-12.htm

So, Paul wants the Corinthians to be zealous of or for the spiritual ______.

What should go in the blank? The word "gifts"? I don't think so. He had already established in 1 Corinthians 12:1 that he is writing about spiritual brethren, as I showed before.

So, in 1 Corinthians 14:1, Paul is writing something like this:

Be zealous of/for the spiritual [ones], referring back to the spiritual (remember in the text that pneumatika is an adjective, just like spiritual is in this sentence) brethren gifted by the Holy Spirit, understanding his use of zealous to be jealous of (in a good sense), as Thayer has it:

"in a good sense, to imitate emulously".

https://biblehub.com/greek/2206.htm

So, Paul is encouraging the congregation of the Corinthians to pay close attention to the charismatically gifted members of their church and to imitate them, particularly, I would say, in their level of devotion and sincerity to Christ, and so, become spiritual as well (as opposed to being carnal, the main problem in Corinth, as we know) and so, by jealously imitating these spiritual brethren, they might grow and mature and become spiritual as well, and so, be likewise endowed by the power of the Spirit with charismata.

In this way, the purpose of 1 Corinthians 1:5-7 could be achieved and the Corinthians really would not come behind anyone else in the charismata of the Spirit.

Now, as it pertains to 1 Corinthians 14:12, remember that zelotai is not a verb, but a noun.

The verse begins with Οὕτως or Houtos and, as an adverb, means "thus so, in this manner".

https://biblehub.com/greek/3779.htm

In what manner does Paul mean or refer? He is building his case from the verses previously written, particularly the idea that the church should be edified through prophecy, as opposed to a single member personally edified through tongues, and that speaking loudly in tongues makes someone sound like a "barbarian" to anyone who can't understand the language.

He wants them to become zealous people (nouns, that is) who are warmly affectionate toward and desiring to imitate, the spiritual brethren in the church, so that, by so doing (from houtos) they too could edify the whole church and not just themselves.

This passage is a call to maturity, to move on from carnal simplicity to spiritual complexity, that the whole church would emulate their leaders who have been endowed by the Spirit with charismata so that the church and the world at large around them can be and become even more blessed and fruitful, to the point that all the members might one day prophesy in turn when an unbeliever is in attendance and so have the secrets of his or her heart revealed by the Lord and so, fall upon his or her face and confess that God is truly in the saints of Corinth.

What this teaches us then, is that, as we already know, Corinth was a carnal mess, full of heresy, factions, and other forms of unrighteousness. But not everyone was that way. The household of Chloe, who reported the problems to Paul, for instance. Stephanus, as well. There were some leaders in Corinth whose ships were sailing well, but a lot of work needed to be done for the rest of the Body.

Paul's teaching then in 1 Corinthians 12-14 shows us that many of the saints in Corinth were not spiritual and had not been endowed with any charismata, and likely never would be unless and until they got their heads on straight and learned to submit themselves to the commandments of the Lord. One way of doing that was to be zealous for their spiritual brethren, the example setters, those apostles, and prophets, and teachers, and etc., who God was using regularly in the gifts of the Spirit.

So, the gifts are in a sense, for everyone in the Body, but they aren't randomly or promiscuously handed out to just anyone just because somebody received the Holy Spirit and was baptized. There is a method to them. A growing up that needs to be accomplished. They aren't just given, they are entrusted. God is a God of decency and order and expects His gifts to be administered and operated accordingly. So, those who use them well and righteously are to be admired and appreciated and learned from, even emulated, in their walk with God, so that what they have been given might be given again, when the time is right and the next up and coming person is ready.

[votivesoul]

Votivesoul, just wondering. Do you believe all 120 spoke in tongues in Acts 2, or just the twelve?

All 120 as far as I can tell, but there are compelling arguments for both views.

[votivesoul]

The Greek for "desire" in 1 Corinthians 14:1 is ζηλοῦτε or zeloute, from the Greek word zelos, that is to say, our word "zealous". In 1 Corinthians 14:12, we see the word zealous, from ζηλωταί, or zelotai, from zelos as well, but note a difference:

In 1 Corinthians 14:1, zeloute is a verb. In 1 Corinthians 14:12, zelotai is a noun.

Also in 1 Corinthians 14:1, prior to spiritual, or pneumatika (an adjective not a noun), we have the definite article τὰ or ta indicating the English word "the".

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/14-1.htm

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/14-12.htm

So, Paul wants the Corinthians to be zealous of or for the spiritual ______.

What should go in the blank? The word "gifts"? I don't think so. He had already established in 1 Corinthians 12:1 that he is writing about spiritual brethren, as I showed before.

So, in 1 Corinthians 14:1, Paul is writing something like this:

Be zealous of/for the spiritual [ones], referring back to the spiritual (remember in the text that pneumatika is an adjective, just like spiritual is in this sentence) brethren gifted by the Holy Spirit, understanding his use of zealous to be jealous of (in a good sense), as Thayer has it:

"in a good sense, to imitate emulously".

https://biblehub.com/greek/2206.htm

So, Paul is encouraging the congregation of the Corinthians to pay close attention to the charismatically gifted members of their church and to imitate them, particularly, I would say, in their level of devotion and sincerity to Christ, and so, become spiritual as well (as opposed to being carnal, the main problem in Corinth, as we know) and so, by jealously imitating these spiritual brethren, they might grow and mature and become spiritual as well, and so, be likewise endowed by the power of the Spirit with charismata.

In this way, the purpose of 1 Corinthians 1:5-7 could be achieved and the Corinthians really would not come behind anyone else in the charismata of the Spirit.

Now, as it pertains to 1 Corinthians 14:12, remember that zelotai is not a verb, but a noun.

The verse begins with Οὕτως or Houtos and, as an adverb, means "thus so, in this manner".

https://biblehub.com/greek/3779.htm

In what manner does Paul mean or refer? He is building his case from the verses previously written, particularly the idea that the church should be edified through prophecy, as opposed to a single member personally edified through tongues, and that speaking loudly in tongues makes someone sound like a "barbarian" to anyone who can't understand the language.

He wants them to become zealous people (nouns, that is) who are warmly affectionate toward and desiring to imitate, the spiritual brethren in the church, so that, by so doing (from houtos) they too could edify the whole church and not just themselves.

This passage is a call to maturity, to move on from carnal simplicity to spiritual complexity, that the whole church would emulate their leaders who have been endowed by the Spirit with charismata so that the church and the world at large around them can be and become even more blessed and fruitful, to the point that all the members might one day prophesy in turn when an unbeliever is in attendance and so have the secrets of his or her heart revealed by the Lord and so, fall upon his or her face and confess that God is truly in the saints of Corinth.

What this teaches us then, is that, as we already know, Corinth was a carnal mess, full of heresy, factions, and other forms of unrighteousness. But not everyone was that way. The household of Chloe, who reported the problems to Paul, for instance. Stephanus, as well. There were some leaders in Corinth whose ships were sailing well, but a lot of work needed to be done for the rest of the Body.

Paul's teaching then in 1 Corinthians 12-14 shows us that many of the saints in Corinth were not spiritual and had not been endowed with any charismata, and likely never would be unless and until they got their heads on straight and learned to submit themselves to the commandments of the Lord. One way of doing that was to be zealous for their spiritual brethren, the example setters, those apostles, and prophets, and teachers, and etc., who God was using regularly in the gifts of the Spirit.

So, the gifts are in a sense, for everyone in the Body, but they aren't randomly or promiscuously handed out to just anyone just because somebody received the Holy Spirit and was baptized. There is a method to them. A growing up that needs to be accomplished. They aren't just given, they are entrusted. God is a God of decency and order and expects His gifts to be administered and operated accordingly. So, those who use them well and righteously are to be admired and appreciated and learned from, even emulated, in their walk with God, so that what they have been given might be given again, when the time is right and the next up and coming person is ready.

Regarding the last bit about when the time is right and the next up and coming person is ready, I believe Timothy is the perfect case.

At some point in his life, after his conversion, some elders laid their hands on Timothy and he was commissioned to the ministry and endowed with a gift of the Spirit at the same time. Paul may have been one of those elders, because he, too, refers to a time when Timothy received a gift of the Spirit after Paul laid hands on him. Either it was the same moment or separate events. Whichever way it was, it shows perfectly what I have maintained. That not everyone is ready for the gifts of the Spirit, but at a crucial time, with the involvement of the elders, God will bestow such gifts as He desires when a person is officially commissioned as apostle or prophet, or etc.

This idea that they are just for everyone, with no qualifiers on them, isn't Scriptural. They are for everyone when and if, and only if, each saint meets God's criteria for when He determines they are ready.

Otherwise, you see an awful lot of mistakes and abuses and hurt feelings and breaking of commandments regarding their use, whether we are speaking of the charismatic or even pentecostal or apostolic movements.

[votivesoul]

So getting back to the topic of the thread:


So for Chris Reed or anyone else to be counted as A PROPHET......how much truth must they believe in and teach? Another way of putting it would be how much doctrinal error can they have and be a real PROPHET?

Recall the man of God, a prophet, who lied to the other man of God, also a prophet, and compelled him to come in and dine, and God slew the second prophet after using the first prophet who lied, to tell the second prophet that he had disobeyed God would be killed?

1 Kings 13.

[votivesoul]

I asked a simple question.

No, tin-foil hat here. Because you are on record saying:



The worst part is that you asked this female poster to think and pray about her oneness position!



An Admin on an Apostolic forum, asking a Oneness person to open up a horizon of new possibilities that they could be wrong.

Astonishing!

Love bears no records of wrong???

But in reality, I didn't ask Amanah to reconsider her Oneness view of the Godhead. I asked her to reconsider the alleged difference in anointing she felt from a Holy-Spirit filled Trinity believing church meeting she was in versus a Holy-Spirit filled Oneness church meeting she was in since such experiences are subjective.

And asking someone to reconsider something isn't a sin, last time I checked, since it behooves us all to reconsider, from time to time, to keep ourselves on our spiritual toes.

Is this what's been sticking in your craw the whole time? You misunderstood and you've had it out for me ever since?

I have never once attempted to convert someone out of Oneness, here, or in my own personal life. I have no plans to ever do so.

For anyone keeping score, here is the thread Pressing_On is quoting from:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50594&highlight=horizon

Here is my first post in response to Amanah:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1466448&postcount=5

Here is my second post, that Pressing_On selectively quoted and spun:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1466467&postcount=9

I recommend, however, since I replied many times in that thread, that if anyone is interested, to read the whole thing, including my interactions with Pressing_On. You can then judge for yourself, without the selectivity and spin.

[Pressing-On]

I recommend, however, since I replied many times in that thread, that if anyone is interested, to read the whole thing, including my interactions with Pressing_On. You can then judge for yourself, without the selectivity and spin.

Yes, please begin on page one of that thread. After all the heavy pontificating, nothing has changed.

[diakonos]

Recall the man of God, a prophet, who lied to the other man of God, also a prophet, and compelled him to come in and dine, and God slew the second prophet after using the first prophet who lied, to tell the second prophet that he had disobeyed God would be killed?

1 Kings 13.

That story has always bothered me.

[mfblume]

All 120 as far as I can tell, but there are compelling arguments for both views.

Thanks.

[mfblume]

Reminded me of psychic John Edward.

The bible's litmus test of it all is to what God does it direct people.

[Pressing-On]

All 120 as far as I can tell, but there are compelling arguments for both views.
Really? How do you argue against “all”?


ἅπας
hapas
hap'-as
From G1 (as a particle of union) and G3956; absolutely all or (singular) every one: - all (things), every (one), whole.

[Michael The Disciple]

Recall the man of God, a prophet, who lied to the other man of God, also a prophet, and compelled him to come in and dine, and God slew the second prophet after using the first prophet who lied, to tell the second prophet that he had disobeyed God would be killed?

1 Kings 13.

Even prophets can fail God.

[Ron]

Sister, I sincerely hope for your sake you are telling the truth.

Hy would she have reason to lie?🤔

[Esaias]

Even prophets can fail God.

There is "the man of God", and then there is "an old prophet". It doesn't say he was a prophet OF GOD, just "an old prophet".

After lying to and deceiving the man of God, he becomes a balaam's ass and pronounces doom on the man of God.

[Michael The Disciple]

There is "the man of God", and then there is "an old prophet". It doesn't say he was a prophet OF GOD, just "an old prophet".

After lying to and deceiving the man of God, he becomes a balaam's ass and pronounces doom on the man of God.

In that scenario the "man of God" prophet failed God by disobedience. But my original question was dealing with the New Testament prophet and sound doctrine. Can one be a prophet to the Church and not be in the foundation doctrine of Christ?

[votivesoul]

In that scenario the "man of God" prophet failed God by disobedience. But my original question was dealing with the New Testament prophet and sound doctrine. Can one be a prophet to the Church and not be in the foundation doctrine of Christ?

Simon Peter was a prophet and according to Paul in Galatians, he erred in his behavior.

Paul and Barnabas were both prophets and they disunified over John Mark.

[jediwill83]

Simon Peter was a prophet and according to Paul in Galatians, he erred in his behavior.

Paul and Barnabas were both prophets and they disunified over John Mark.




Some people take the whole,"straight and narrow" thing to mean that if you arent walking in "their" lane, you done fell off the road entirely...

[Ehud]

Some people take the whole,"straight and narrow" thing to mean that if you arent walking in "their" lane, you done fell off the road entirely...

Boy, ain't that the truth!?!

[Esaias]

In that scenario the "man of God" prophet failed God by disobedience. But my original question was dealing with the New Testament prophet and sound doctrine. Can one be a prophet to the Church and not be in the foundation doctrine of Christ?

The man of God failed because he was snookered by the "old prophet" into thinking God wanted him to stop and have dinner with the guy. I think we see two situations here: one guy looks to be a conniving liar, the other was sincere but got fooled by the conniver.

As to your question:

1 John 4:6 KJV
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Amanah]

Have any of you heard of forensic prophecy?

[Michael The Disciple]

Have any of you heard of forensic prophecy?

No

[mfblume]

Have any of you heard of forensic prophecy?

Someone used that term once while having Reed on a live stream, describing Reed's detailed insight. And I think the guy does not know what forensic means. I think he thought it meant detailed analysis of someone's life, when it actually means scientific methods to detect crime. lol

[Pressing-On]

The Greek for "desire" in 1 Corinthians 14:1 is ζηλοῦτε or zeloute, from the Greek word zelos, that is to say, our word "zealous". In 1 Corinthians 14:12, we see the word zealous, from ζηλωταί, or zelotai, from zelos as well, but note a difference:

In 1 Corinthians 14:1, zeloute is a verb. In 1 Corinthians 14:12, zelotai is a noun.

Also in 1 Corinthians 14:1, prior to spiritual, or pneumatika (an adjective not a noun), we have the definite article τὰ or ta indicating the English word "the".

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/14-1.htm

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/14-12.htm

So, Paul wants the Corinthians to be zealous of or for the spiritual ______.

What should go in the blank? The word "gifts"? I don't think so.

So, you are saying the blank is not to be filled in with “gifts”?

No Bible translation agrees with you. I think you are not only not Oneness, but you are not Apostolic either.



New International Version
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

New Living Translation
Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives—especially the ability to prophesy.

English Standard Version
Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

Berean Study Bible
Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

Berean Literal Bible
Earnestly pursue love, and earnestly desire spiritual gifts, and especially that you might prophesy.

New American Standard Bible
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

New King James Version
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

King James Bible
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Christian Standard Bible
Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy.

Contemporary English Version
Love should be your guide. Be eager to have the gifts that come from the Holy Spirit, especially the gift of prophecy.

Good News Translation
It is love, then, that you should strive for. Set your hearts on spiritual gifts, especially the gift of proclaiming God's message.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, and above all that you may prophesy.

International Standard Version
Keep on pursuing love, and keep on desiring spiritual gifts, especially the ability to prophesy.

NET Bible
Pursue love and be eager for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

New Heart English Bible
Follow after love, and earnestly desire spiritual things, and especially that you may prophesy.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Run after love and be zealous for the gifts of The Spirit, but especially that you may prophesy.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially the gift of speaking what God has revealed.

New American Standard 1977
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

King James 2000 Bible
Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophesy.

American King James Version
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophesy.

American Standard Version
Follow after love; yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts , but rather that ye may prophesy.

Douay-Rheims Bible
FOLLOW after charity, be zealous for spiritual gifts; but rather that you may prophesy.

Darby Bible Translation
Follow after love, and be emulous of spiritual [manifestations], but rather that ye may prophesy.

English Revised Version
Follow after love; yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Webster's Bible Translation
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Weymouth New Testament
Be eager in your pursuit of this Love, and be earnestly ambitious for spiritual gifts, but let it be chiefly so in order that you may prophesy.

World English Bible
Follow after love, and earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Young's Literal Translation
Pursue the love, and seek earnestly the spiritual things, and rather that ye may prophecy,

[thaddaeus417]

Is not Chris Reed is a follower of William Branham and Paul Cain....Paul Cain was admittedly an alcoholic and homosexual.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2311757308857999&set=pb.100000712577192.-2207520000..&type=3&theater

[thaddaeus417]

And #2....

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2207663722600692&set=pb.100000712577192.-2207520000..&type=3&theater

[thaddaeus417]

And lastly...

Prophetic word ! 8-25-2020
- Chris Reed

There will be an “October surprise” of epic proportions this fall. Something major will happen before the election that will change everything in a positive way. Watch for it, and remember this word. What’s an October surprise ?

-“any political event orchestrated (or apparently orchestrated) in the month before an election, in the hopes of affecting the outcome.”

We are believing for God’s will to be done!

We'll see

[Evang.Benincasa]

October surprise? Sounds a bit vague. Maybe Chris Reed watches the Simpsons? Why are these guys so vague, nothing like Agabus taking Peter's belt and binding himself and letting everyone including Peter what was going to happen. But the real problem is people want all this to be real. It's entertainment, and they enjoy the fun. Don't get me wrong, I have witnessed first hand prophecy, but it was concerning events having to do on a more personal level. Honestly, who cares about what will happen on a political level, when it is God who places leadership over any country? Prophets are for the church, and what she is doing, not whether or not the Donald is going to do trained seal imitations for four more years. You all want a real prophet? Stop looking for them, stop following them, and start praying that Jesus speaks to you on a more personal level. Pray that the next time you are in one of these Pentecostal Carnac the Magnificent meetings. That the Lord Jesus Christ will speak through you to read THEIR MAIL!!!!

[Nicodemus1968]

October surprise? Sounds a bit vague. Maybe Chris Reed watches the Simpsons? Why are these guys so vague, nothing like Agabus taking Peter's belt and binding himself and letting everyone including Peter what was going to happen. But the real problem is people want all this to be real. It's entertainment, and they enjoy the fun. Don't get me wrong, I have witnessed first hand prophecy, but it was concerning events having to do on a more personal level. Honestly, who cares about what will happen on a political level, when it is God who places leadership over any country? Prophets are for the church, and what she is doing, not whether or not the Donald is going to do trained seal imitations for four more years. You all want a real prophet? Stop looking for them, stop following them, and start praying that Jesus speaks to you on a more personal level. Pray that the next time you are in one of these Pentecostal Carnac the Magnificent meetings. That the Lord Jesus Christ will speak through you to read THEIR MAIL!!!!

Right on, right on, right on.

[thaddaeus417]

October surprise? Sounds a bit vague. Maybe Chris Reed watches the Simpsons? Why are these guys so vague, nothing like Agabus taking Peter's belt and binding himself and letting everyone including Peter what was going to happen. But the real problem is people want all this to be real. It's entertainment, and they enjoy the fun. Don't get me wrong, I have witnessed first hand prophecy, but it was concerning events having to do on a more personal level. Honestly, who cares about what will happen on a political level, when it is God who places leadership over any country? Prophets are for the church, and what she is doing, not whether or not the Donald is going to do trained seal imitations for four more years. You all want a real prophet? Stop looking for them, stop following them, and start praying that Jesus speaks to you on a more personal level. Pray that the next time you are in one of these Pentecostal Carnac the Magnificent meetings. That the Lord Jesus Christ will speak through you to read THEIR MAIL!!!!

Nailed it Bro!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Those poor folks must have forgotten their names and addresses. Thank Gpd the prophet was there to remind them!


When Richard Alpert aka Ram Dass met Neem Karoli baba (his guru) the Guru told him about his life. What happened was this, the night before the meeting Richard Alpert was looking up into the Indian night sky at the stars. He was thinking about his mother who had recently died. When Richard Alpert met with Neem Karoli baba, the Guru told Mr Alpert what he was thinking about the night before as he looked up into the night sky. This was Mr Alpert's epiphany, his moment of clarity where he chose the path of Hinduism.

So, my question is this, just because someone reads your mail, should we follow them? False Prophets weren't necessarily called false prophets because they got the prophecy wrong. It was because THEY were wrong.

[n david]

And lastly...

Prophetic word ! 8-25-2020
- Chris Reed
There will be an “October surprise” of epic proportions this fall. Something major will happen before the election that will change everything in a positive way. Watch for it, and remember this word. What’s an October surprise ?
-“any political event orchestrated (or apparently orchestrated) in the month before an election, in the hopes of affecting the outcome.”
We are believing for God’s will to be done! #share

We'll see

Claiming there will be an October surprise in a Presidential election year is not being prophetic. Anyone with basic knowledge of Presidential election politics knows there's always an October surprise.

Remember this word? What word? There was no word. There was a very vague claim that something that happens every Presidential election will happen this Presidential election.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Claiming there will be an October surprise in a Presidential election year is not being prophetic. Anyone with basic knowledge of Presidential election politics knows there's always an October surprise.

Remember this word? What word? There was no word. There was a very vague claim that something that happens every Presidential election will happen this Presidential election.

Amen my brother!!!:thumbsup :yourock

[jediwill83]

Claiming there will be an October surprise in a Presidential election year is not being prophetic. Anyone with basic knowledge of Presidential election politics knows there's always an October surprise.

Remember this word? What word? There was no word. There was a very vague claim that something that happens every Presidential election will happen this Presidential election.


I think that what happens is people get so caught up in the "us vs them" mindset of politics that they forget to step back and the bigger picture beyond a man or woman filling a political role...they get caught up in the chaos and hype...emotion gets all worked up and because emotion is so key to many of our services its really easy to mistake a Word when its not one.


Im not excusing that...just trying to wrap my head around how it happens.


Predicting an "October Suprise" is about prophetic as saying God told you that gas and matches will burn down a house.

[Michael The Disciple]

Dana predicts Trump no where to be found in Nov. Chris predicts a positive surprise.

[Nicodemus1968]

Dana predicts Trump no where to be found in Nov. Chris predicts a positive surprise.

I believe trump will be re-elected. With that, I’m not putting a “Thus Saith the Lord” on that.

[Jito463]

I believe trump will be re-elected. With that, I’m not putting a “Thus Saith the Lord” on that.

Honestly, that's pretty much a no-brainer. Biden is an empty suit (or is that empty head?), and Kamala is hated by her own party. There's no chance they get enough votes, assuming Biden is even on the ticket come November.

[Ehud]

Honestly, that's pretty much a no-brainer. Biden is an empty suit (or is that empty head?), and Kamala is hated by her own party. There's no chance they get enough votes, assuming Biden is even on the ticket come November.

I wasn't going to ask, but I just can't help myself. What is it that you're seeing that leads you to believe Trump is such a shoo-in? I'm not saying he won't win, but I have seen nothing that makes me think it is a lock.

[jediwill83]

I wasn't going to ask, but I just can't help myself. What is it that you're seeing that leads you to believe Trump is such a shoo-in? I'm not saying he won't win, but I have seen nothing that makes me think it is a lock.
Because people are stuck in the "lesser of evils" mindset...Both are train wrecks

[Ehud]

Because people are stuck in the "lesser of evils" mindset...Both are train wrecks

Well, we can certainly agree on that last part, but that doesn't make me see Trump as a lock. I live downstate Illinois, so I am surrounded my #MAGA and #Trump2020 even though Biden will win the state by a mile. That kind of contrast is why I'm questioning the "no-brainer"-type sentiment.

[Nicodemus1968]

Because people are stuck in the "lesser of evils" mindset...Both are train wrecks

I dont believe this election is based on the “lesser of two evils” scenario. Maybe thats the way it was in 2016. This time around its different, Trump has a record, people will judge him by what he has done and not just the rhetoric.

[diakonos]

It’s ALWAYS the lesser of two evils.

[Jito463]

I wasn't going to ask, but I just can't help myself. What is it that you're seeing that leads you to believe Trump is such a shoo-in? I'm not saying he won't win, but I have seen nothing that makes me think it is a lock.

It's less about Trump, and more about how weak of a candidate Biden is.

Both are train wrecks

True, I just don't see people flocking to the voting booths for Biden, especially with a divisive figure like Kamala on the ticket.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think that what happens is people get so caught up in the "us vs them" mindset of politics that they forget to step back and the bigger picture beyond a man or woman filling a political role...they get caught up in the chaos and hype...emotion gets all worked up and because emotion is so key to many of our services its really easy to mistake a Word when its not one.


I'm not excusing that...just trying to wrap my head around how it happens.


Predicting an "October Surprise" is about prophetic as saying God told you that gas and matches will burn down a house.

Cold reading, warm reading, and hot reading, does everyone know anything about these three terms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjPsnfysrp8&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=KevinKlawitter

[Evang.Benincasa]

Also please look up Psychic Methods of Hot Reading.

[Evang.Benincasa]

While you are at it look up FAKE MARTIAL ARTS.

Aren't we just a whole entire world of people who yearn for make believe? No, I don't think so. I just think there are a lot of people without scruples. Who pray on the ignorant, sometimes not even for money. But they love the feel they get when people shake their hand when they climb down from the platform. They love when sincere sweet people give them attention. Matthew 23:7 really describes the whole circus train wreck pretty well.

[Michael The Disciple]

And yet God gave some .....prophets. And prophetic gifts.

[Evang.Benincasa]

And yet God gave some .....prophets. And prophetic gifts.

You are bringing this verse to our attention for what goal?

Do you feel that we somehow don't believe this scripture because we believe that there are those who are not true prophets? But, are conmen, or just seeking the adoration of others? I believe that those posting in this thread wholeheartedly believe in the prophetic, they just don't believe in the pathetic.

[Michael The Disciple]

I think there are far more false, than true prophets. I have seen a number of them along the way. Matter of fact tho I do believe there are prophets right now in the world I dont think I have encountered any.

I HAVE known some with real prophetic gifts but are or were not "prophets".

I have not seen a "public" prophetic gift among Oneness people as strong as it SEEMS to be with Chris Reed.

Time will tell.

[Amanah]

I think there are far more false, than true prophets. I have seen a number of them along the way. Matter of fact tho I do believe there are prophets right now in the world I dont think I have encountered any.

I HAVE known some with real prophetic gifts but are or were not "prophets".
I have not seen a "public" prophetic gift among Oneness people as strong as it SEEMS to be with Chris Reed.

Time will tell.

Right, when you name a person's mother and father, and.then give relevant encouragement to their situation, that is more than just a lucky guess.

[Amanah]

Chris Reed seems to be genuinely gifted. What concerns me is his rising fame with charismatic groups and TV personalities. He is young and maybe in danger from such a broad exposure and popularity

[diakonos]

You are bringing this verse to our attention for what goal?

Do you feel that we somehow don't believe this scripture because we believe that there are those who are not true prophets? But, are conmen, or just seeking the adoration of others? I believe that those posting in this thread wholeheartedly believe in the prophetic, they just don't believe in the pathetic.

:hanky

[Michael The Disciple]

Chris Reed seems to be genuinely gifted. What concerns me is his rising fame with charismatic groups and TV personalities. He is young and maybe in danger from such a broad exposure and popularity

I look at it this way. It could be that God will use him to bring Acts 2:38 and Oneness truth to them. While there is a possibility of him compromising it there is that possibility with ANY minister who tries to reach outside of his 4 walls.

I havent been following him other than watching a few of his videos about a month ago. Obviously he believes in Acts 2:38 and keeping the law. I would be as much concerned about him teaching law keeping as associating with Charismatics.

Are you aware of any particular Charismatic groups he is popular with? The only group I know of he SEEMS to embrace is Jesse Whites. If I recall my few discussions with Jesse I think we agreed more than disagreed except on the law.

[Amanah]

I look at it this way. It could be that God will use him to bring Acts 2:38 and Oneness truth to them. While there is a possibility of him compromising it there is that possibility with ANY minister who tries to reach outside of his 4 walls.

I havent been following him other than watching a few of his videos about a month ago. Obviously he believes in Acts 2:38 and keeping the law. I would be as much concerned about him teaching law keeping as associating with Charismatics.

Are you aware of any particular Charismatic groups he is popular with? The only group I know of he SEEMS to embrace is Jesse Whites. If I recall my few discussions with Jesse I think we agreed more than disagreed except on the law.

He has been on TBN.

[Nicodemus1968]

Right, when you name a person's mother and father, and.then give relevant encouragement to their situation, that is more than just a lucky guess.

I totally agree, its more than a lucky guess. Yet, is that prophecy? And if it is, then please show where that type is in the Bible?

I have no axe to grind with Mr. Reed, dont know him other the situation with a church in Midwest USA.

Yet, when Mike posted the live stream with Chris and he preached his sermon, and afterwards did that; what it reminded me of was a telethon. Chris asking them questions, “do you have this (name) in your family”, “did they recently move” all that goes hand in hand with the physics and mediums. If he says he is a prophet, then Ill believe him, and we watch for the works. Yet, I have never seen nor heard of a prophet doing the work like i have seen Chris.

Compare to the prophets of Old, and New Testament, and I’m not talking about calling fire from heaven, or transferring leprosy. I’m talking about how they gave the word.

2 Peter 1:19
[19] We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The word SURE in this verse means, Firm, confident, steadfast, sure.

Elijah, Nathan, Samuel, Jeremiah, Agabus they had a sure word.

Compare that to Chris, and it doesn’t sound like he has a sure word. I guess I can be wrong and this is a new style of prophecy.

I seen the Lord use prophets, I know a prophet.

I remember he preached to a couple that have been married for 20 years at that time. Been in church for about 19 years of their marriage, one special service he told them, that if in 5 years you dont get it right, you’ll be divorced. My parents are now divorced.

I know a prophet that went to a church, walked right in while they were having service. He walked down the center isle and told the Pastor to get into the wheel barrel, the Pastor got in, and he walked him around the church several times. Finally, he let him off and told him, thats what this church is doing to you. The church dramatically changed after that.

I know of a man, a novice if you will. He believes the Lord has called him into the office of the prophet. He felt the Lord gave him a word to a Pastor. From what I understand the young man never spoke to this Pastor before, never been to his church. Yet he went, in confidence I cant say everything, yet I can say God told him he was going to give him one more chance to get right. As he went to the church he asked God to give him a confirmation, while the Pastor was preaching he stopped and said, “I’m not sure why I’m going to say this, yet I feel someone here is going to be given there last chance to get it right.”

I can go on, yet those are examples in my opinion of an office of a prophet. I dont see that with Chris, I see his way of ministry fall more in the lines of mediums. Time will tell, I hope I’m wrong.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I look at it this way. It could be that God will use him to bring Acts 2:38 and Oneness truth to them. While there is a possibility of him compromising it there is that possibility with ANY minister who tries to reach outside of his 4 walls.

I havent been following him other than watching a few of his videos about a month ago. Obviously he believes in Acts 2:38 and keeping the law. I would be as much concerned about him teaching law keeping as associating with Charismatics.

Are you aware of any particular Charismatic groups he is popular with? The only group I know of he SEEMS to embrace is Jesse Whites. If I recall my few discussions with Jesse I think we agreed more than disagreed except on the law.


Looks like everyone who has gone amongst the "charismatics" didn't shake any pillars loose. Follow the money. If the Bible said THOU SHALT NEVER EVER TAKE MONEY, MUST WORK A SECULAR JOB. You would see a whole lot of Hollywood prophets disappear. Remember Peter Popoff.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yet, when Mike posted the live stream with Chris and he preached his sermon, and afterwards did that; what it reminded me of was a telethon. Chris asking them questions, “do you have this (name) in your family”, “did they recently move” all that goes hand in hand with the physics and mediums. If he says he is a prophet, then Ill believe him, and we watch for the works. Yet, I have never seen nor heard of a prophet doing the work like i have seen Chris.

Look up "Cold Reading Techniques."

[Evang.Benincasa]

Also look into the "Barnum effect"

[Evang.Benincasa]

When Richard Alpert aka Ram Dass met Neem Karoli baba (his guru) the Guru told him about his life. What happened was this, the night before the meeting Richard Alpert was looking up into the Indian night sky at the stars. He was thinking about his mother who had recently died. When Richard Alpert met with Neem Karoli baba, the Guru told Mr Alpert what he was thinking about the night before as he looked up into the night sky. This was Mr Alpert's epiphany, his moment of clarity where he chose the path of Hinduism.

So, my question is this, just because someone reads your mail, should we follow them? False Prophets weren't necessarily called false prophets because they got the prophecy wrong. It was because THEY were wrong.

Anyone care to take a poke at this one? How did this Hindu Guru read the mail of Richard Alpert? It changed his life to such a degree that his research into LSD was the least of his problems.

[Amanah]

I totally agree, its more than a lucky guess. Yet, is that prophecy? And if it is, then please show where that type is in the Bible?

I have no axe to grind with Mr. Reed, dont know him other the situation with a church in Midwest USA.

Yet, when Mike posted the live stream with Chris and he preached his sermon, and afterwards did that; what it reminded me of was a telethon. Chris asking them questions, “do you have this (name) in your family”, “did they recently move” all that goes hand in hand with the physics and mediums. If he says he is a prophet, then Ill believe him, and we watch for the works. Yet, I have never seen nor heard of a prophet doing the work like i have seen Chris.

Compare to the prophets of Old, and New Testament, and I’m not talking about calling fire from heaven, or transferring leprosy. I’m talking about how they gave the word.

2 Peter 1:19
[19] We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The word SURE in this verse means, Firm, confident, steadfast, sure.

Elijah, Nathan, Samuel, Jeremiah, Agabus they had a sure word.

Compare that to Chris, and it doesn’t sound like he has a sure word. I guess I can be wrong and this is a new style of prophecy.

I seen the Lord use prophets, I know a prophet.

I remember he preached to a couple that have been married for 20 years at that time. Been in church for about 19 years of their marriage, one special service he told them, that if in 5 years you dont get it right, you’ll be divorced. My parents are now divorced.

I know a prophet that went to a church, walked right in while they were having service. He walked down the center isle and told the Pastor to get into the wheel barrel, the Pastor got in, and he walked him around the church several times. Finally, he let him off and told him, thats what this church is doing to you. The church dramatically changed after that.

I know of a man, a novice if you will. He believes the Lord has called him into the office of the prophet. He felt the Lord gave him a word to a Pastor. From what I understand the young man never spoke to this Pastor before, never been to his church. Yet he went, in confidence I cant say everything, yet I can say God told him he was going to give him one more chance to get right. As he went to the church he asked God to give him a confirmation, while the Pastor was preaching he stopped and said, “I’m not sure why I’m going to say this, yet I feel someone here is going to be given there last chance to get it right.”

I can go on, yet those are examples in my opinion of an office of a prophet. I dont see that with Chris, I see his way of ministry fall more in the lines of mediums. Time will tell, I hope I’m wrong.

I didn't say it was prophecy, I said he is gifted as in Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge.

[Amanah]

I look at it this way. It could be that God will use him to bring Acts 2:38 and Oneness truth to them. While there is a possibility of him compromising it there is that possibility with ANY minister who tries to reach outside of his 4 walls.

I havent been following him other than watching a few of his videos about a month ago. Obviously he believes in Acts 2:38 and keeping the law. I would be as much concerned about him teaching law keeping as associating with Charismatics.

Are you aware of any particular Charismatic groups he is popular with? The only group I know of he SEEMS to embrace is Jesse Whites. If I recall my few discussions with Jesse I think we agreed more than disagreed except on the law.

He doesn't teach keeping the law in general. He teaches keeping the Royal Law of the 10 commandments.

[Michael The Disciple]

Looks like everyone who has gone amongst the "charismatics" didn't shake any pillars loose. Follow the money. If the Bible said THOU SHALT NEVER EVER TAKE MONEY, MUST WORK A SECULAR JOB. You would see a whole lot of Hollywood prophets disappear. Remember Peter Popoff.

Theres always hope. Do you ever pray for Charismatics or talk with them about Oneness?

As to the Hollywood prophets we would see the same thing among many "pastors".

I do remember Peter Popoff. I also have experience with W.V. Grant Jr. I oppose false prophets as well as false "pastor/teachers".

[Evang.Benincasa]

Theres always hope. Do you ever pray for Charismatics or talk with them about Oneness?

As to the Hollywood prophets we would see the same thing among many "pastors".

I do remember Peter Popoff. I also have experience with W.V. Grant Jr. I oppose false prophets as well as false "pastor/teachers".

You sure don’t like pastors.

[jediwill83]

You sure don’t like pastors.
You sure do like deflecting.

[Evang.Benincasa]

You sure do like deflecting.

No deflection in stating the obvious.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Thanks and Amen, the Bible says judge prophecies! :thumbsup

Well, we got two months for an oil disaster to hit off the West Coast of Florida.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think there are far more false, than true prophets. I have seen a number of them along the way. Matter of fact tho I do believe there are prophets right now in the world I dont think I have encountered any.

I HAVE known some with real prophetic gifts but are or were not "prophets".

I have not seen a "public" prophetic gift among Oneness people as strong as it SEEMS to be with Chris Reed.

Time will tell.

Just took five years?

[Tithesmeister]

Interesting

[Esaias]

I believe trump will be re-elected. With that, I’m not putting a “Thus Saith the Lord” on that.

Honestly, that's pretty much a no-brainer. Biden is an empty suit (or is that empty head?), and Kamala is hated by her own party. There's no chance they get enough votes, assuming Biden is even on the ticket come November.

I dont believe this election is based on the “lesser of two evils” scenario. Maybe thats the way it was in 2016. This time around its different, Trump has a record, people will judge him by what he has done and not just the rhetoric.

It's less about Trump, and more about how weak of a candidate Biden is.



True, I just don't see people flocking to the voting booths for Biden, especially with a divisive figure like Kamala on the ticket.

Oops! If I recall correctly, Biden got so many votes he was literally THE most popular president in US history! (never mind he couldn't fill a parking lot of supporters). Meanwhile, apparently Kamala is currently the biggest thing since sliced bread...

[Esaias]

Oops! If I recall correctly, Biden got so many votes he was literally THE most popular president in US history! (never mind he couldn't fill a parking lot of supporters). Meanwhile, apparently Kamala is currently the biggest thing since sliced bread...

I wonder what the guys who were in this thread think about how things have been turning out?

https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=1424510

[Evang.Benincasa]

I wonder what the guys who were in this thread think about how things have been turning out?

https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=1424510

Probably all still cemented in their views.

Vote Harder. If we all vote just a little harder, we will be able to make the world a brighter place. :)

[Nicodemus1968]

Oops! If I recall correctly, Biden got so many votes he was literally THE most popular president in US history! (never mind he couldn't fill a parking lot of supporters). Meanwhile, apparently Kamala is currently the biggest thing since sliced bread...

Never really cared bout voting, and what politics actually means to many men and women. When the fiasco of 2020 happed it really opened my eyes to the true deception of this country. Was taught and believed this was a country founded on Christianity, by men with a high moral character. Boy I was wrong, this country at its core is no different than the rest, they’re controlling, manipulating, and deceitful. Trump in my mind was the winner of that election, yet they stole it away with the foundation of this country, deception. Just to be clear, I am not a Trump fan. And I don’t care if you vote republican or democrat, they’re all the same. Funny how these so called “public servants” have the audacity to believe they know what you need, and what it takes to make your life better. Best thing would be no one votes, everyone turns off the news, and get back to what really matters.

I haven’t voted in years, voting is the biggest waste of time, just like listening to these people on the internet and radio about what they believe and how they’re going to change the world. Forget it, get back to God and your family, reach for the lost, work in the kingdom. Don’t give this government your time and energy, give it to God.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Never really cared bout voting, and what politics actually means to many men and women. When the fiasco of 2020 happed it really opened my eyes to the true deception of this country. Was taught and believed this was a country founded on Christianity, by men with a high moral character. Boy I was wrong, this country at its core is no different than the rest, they’re controlling, manipulating, and deceitful. Trump in my mind was the winner of that election, yet they stole it away with the foundation of this country, deception. Just to be clear, I am not a Trump fan. And I don’t care if you vote republican or democrat, they’re all the same. Funny how these so called “public servants” have the audacity to believe they know what you need, and what it takes to make your life better. Best thing would be no one votes, everyone turns off the news, and get back to what really matters.

I haven’t voted in years, voting is the biggest waste of time, just like listening to these people on the internet and radio about what they believe and how they’re going to change the world. Forget it, get back to God and your family, reach for the lost, work in the kingdom. Don’t give this government your time and energy, give it to God.

:thumbsup

[Truthseeker]

Looks like Blume supported this guy. Has he stopped?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Looks like Blume supported this guy. Has he stopped?

Brother Blume would have to answer that question.

Brother Blume is always looking for the good in people. He wants to give the benefit of the doubt. To allow a person to show their fruits whether good or bad. I guess you could reach out to him and ask him. :thumbsup

[Truthseeker]

Brother Blume would have to answer that question.

Brother Blume is always looking for the good in people. He wants to give the benefit of the doubt. To allow a person to show their fruits whether good or bad. I guess you could reach out to him and ask him. :thumbsup



:thumbsup