View Full Version : Free Seattle
Michael The Disciple
06-11-2020, 08:38 AM
I posted this on Facebook a few minutes ago. I have never been censored there...yet.
Free Seattle!
Whats with this country? We have become so pathetically weak we have allowed a communist and racist gang to take over from what I have read 6-8 blocks of this city!
Is this not an invasion of the United States Of America? To take away our sovereign territory? I know its a liberal state but what if you lived in that 6-8 block area?
Is there no leadership in America besides gangs and communists? Mr. President, dont worry about what others say. Do the right thing and free Seattle!
diakonos
06-11-2020, 09:00 AM
The governor needs to free Seattle
KeptByTheWord
06-11-2020, 11:48 AM
Hopefully this stunt lets the world see just how crazy all this mess is. But then again... it seems most of the world has lost any ability at all to reason.
coksiw
06-11-2020, 01:47 PM
Crazy I didn't know about this.
Esaias
06-11-2020, 02:59 PM
This is Raz Simone, the leader of the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone in Seattle:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/MBmcqhkaxwc/maxresdefault.jpg
Lulz keep rolling in....
coksiw
06-11-2020, 03:08 PM
Check this analysis: https://www.wsj.com/video/video-investigation-how-a-seattle-protest-ended-in-chaos/09BF16CD-F1A2-42AB-8EBF-45B890D98EA4.html
Originalist
06-11-2020, 03:25 PM
Check this analysis: https://www.wsj.com/video/video-investigation-how-a-seattle-protest-ended-in-chaos/09BF16CD-F1A2-42AB-8EBF-45B890D98EA4.html
That crowd would not have obeyed any command to disperse.
coksiw
06-11-2020, 03:57 PM
That crowd would not have obeyed any command to disperse.
That's true, but in this environment, those mistakes are taken as "racist, brutality, etc..."
Also, did you see the agitator? The naked truth right in action there.
Michael The Disciple
06-11-2020, 05:04 PM
They will do it this way. One city at a time. The longer the leadership tarries the longer they have to reinforce making it a worse battle in the end.
Evang.Benincasa
06-14-2020, 06:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVMXw_y7jyI
Evang.Benincasa
06-14-2020, 06:43 PM
They will do it this way. One city at a time. The longer the leadership tarries the longer they have to reinforce making it a worse battle in the end.
Sorry to say, but my opinion is that the church wanted to win the world with the world. Now the world is having its worldly revival of its own. No backing this motorhome up, because it drove all the way down a muddy wet steep hill, to find nothing but a dead end. With no way of backing up. Don't you believe that the United States is Mystery Babylon? Then if that be the case, then this isn't going to end well. So, grab a seat, a bag of Cheetos, and enjoy the show. While the rest of us have a prayer meeting. :heeheehee
Michael The Disciple
06-14-2020, 08:13 PM
Sorry to say, but my opinion is that the church wanted to win the world with the world. Now the world is having its worldly revival of its own. No backing this motorhome up, because it drove all the way down a muddy wet steep hill, to find nothing but a dead end. With no way of backing up. Don't you believe that the United States is Mystery Babylon? Then if that be the case, then this isn't going to end well. So, grab a seat, a bag of Cheetos, and enjoy the show. While the rest of us have a prayer meeting. :heeheehee
Win the world with the world? I can pretty much agree with that. Is America Mystery Babylon? I think so. The thing is we dont know how deep we are into the end time. If I am right it will get much worse.
Until that time I consider it my duty to pray for the leaders of our country that we may live a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. As far as Seattle goes Im taking it kinda personal. I have a friend there who is physically disabled and he is dependent on others to help him get around town. It puts him in a bad position.
For now I still have hope for people in America and situations here. If we are NOT really at the time of the end great things could still happen here. Its good the rest of you will be having prayer meeting. Mine never really ends.
So lets pray and trust God to expose evil and deliver his people. Also that others would be saved along the way. The word is out that a group of Bikers are going to go to Seattle and take the city back if no one else will. Maybe thats what will happen.
diakonos
06-14-2020, 08:58 PM
So you don’t know when the end is here in your eschatology? But you’re certain that USA is Babylon?
End time bikers saving Seattle? Benincasa, old acquaintances of yours? :lol
This is insane. I’m out...
Evang.Benincasa
06-14-2020, 09:29 PM
So lets pray and trust God to expose evil and deliver his people. A group of Bikers are going to go to Seattle and take the city back if no one else will. Maybe thats what will happen.
https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0GRkYJ1bIwmmd7YA/giphy.gif?w=144
Evang.Benincasa
06-14-2020, 09:32 PM
This is insane. I’m out...
Don't worry, it will get worse as the days progress.
Where this country is swiftly heading, Michael should be getting plenty of preaching material.
mfblume
06-15-2020, 07:46 AM
Just wanted to contrast current popular beliefs with the Bible. A little aside, but carry on afterward!
Win the world with the world? I can pretty much agree with that. Is America Mystery Babylon? I think so.
Rev 17:17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Compared with:
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
----------------------------------
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Compare with:
Matt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, ...
And compare with:
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
----------------------------------
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Compare with:
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
----------------------------------
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Compare with:
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
----------------------------------
Jerusalem is the great city that ruled over the world spiritually from God's perspective as they were kings and priests in Israel there standing before the world.
And most of all:
Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Compare with a mere 400-500 years later:
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
----------------------------------
So true:
Mark 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not
remember?
Finally:
The thing is we dont know how deep we are into the end time. If I am right it will get much worse.
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
John KNEW and y'all missed it.
Carry on!
Steven Avery
06-15-2020, 06:22 PM
In Asheville, leftie as it is, the police immediately dismantled the autonomous zone attempt. Quick, efficient done.
Due to the inaction, the Seattle group can be heavily armed, and set up booby-traps and ambushes.
How It’s Done: Asheville, NC Protesters Attempt an Autonomous Zone, Police Immediately Dismantle It (Watch)
June 13, 2020
https://www.redstate.com/sister-toldjah/2020/06/13/how-its-done-asheville-nc-protesters-attempt-an-autonomous-zone-police-immediately-dismantle-it-watch/
Evang.Benincasa
06-15-2020, 10:28 PM
In Asheville, leftie as it is, the police immediately dismantled the autonomous zone attempt. Quick, efficient done.
Due to the inaction, the Seattle group can be heavily armed, and set up booby-traps and ambushes.
How It’s Done: Asheville, NC Protesters Attempt an Autonomous Zone, Police Immediately Dismantle It (Watch)
June 13, 2020
https://www.redstate.com/sister-toldjah/2020/06/13/how-its-done-asheville-nc-protesters-attempt-an-autonomous-zone-police-immediately-dismantle-it-watch/
Leave it to Southerners. Always getting the job done. Are there any Autonomous Zones in Texas, Louisiana and what about Utah?
KeptByTheWord
06-16-2020, 12:26 AM
Just wanted to contrast current popular beliefs with the Bible. A little aside, but carry on afterward!
Rev 17:17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Compared with:
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
----------------------------------
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Compare with:
Matt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, ...
And compare with:
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
----------------------------------
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Compare with:
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
----------------------------------
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Compare with:
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
----------------------------------
Jerusalem is the great city that ruled over the world spiritually from God's perspective as they were kings and priests in Israel there standing before the world.
And most of all:
Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Compare with a mere 400-500 years later:
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
----------------------------------
So true:
Mark 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not
remember?
Finally:
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
John KNEW and y'all missed it.
Carry on!
You make some great scripture comparisons. Food for thought. None of us really know for sure how the "end" is all going down... but one thing is for sure... I know our LORD knows :)
mfblume
06-16-2020, 05:49 AM
You make some great scripture comparisons. Food for thought. None of us really know for sure how the "end" is all going down... but one thing is for sure... I know our LORD knows :)
I think there's enough in the word that we can know ;) Our Lord knows and He revealed it! The seals were unsealed so we could know.
There's a popular opinion that we simply cannot know. Yet REVELATION, as in Book of Revelation, means unveiling, the opposite of not knowing. Howbeit, we do need to be in the Spirit to correctly know. Especially when Revelation said the things were to come to pass shortly after they were written. I think Jesus, especially, interpreted it for us.
Sorry, again. Just threw that thought in there.
Michael The Disciple
06-16-2020, 08:53 AM
MB,
Why does every thread have to turn into a preaching of preterism?
Evang.Benincasa
06-16-2020, 08:56 AM
MB,
Why does every thread have to turn into a preaching of preterism?
Mike, you shouldn't even talk!!! :laffatu
mfblume
06-16-2020, 08:58 AM
MB,
Why does every thread have to turn into a preaching of preterism?
That's far from the reality of how many times a thread turns into preterism. You mentioned Babylon the Great! How did you turn it in that direction? And I said it was an aside when I spoke.
coksiw
06-16-2020, 08:59 AM
MB,
Why does every thread have to turn into a preaching of preterism?
Because it is obvious we are living in the Millennium kingdom (or better, the new earth) :heeheehee
Michael The Disciple
06-16-2020, 09:08 AM
That's far from the reality of how many times a thread turns into preterism. You mentioned Babylon the Great! How did you turn it in that direction? And I said it was an aside when I spoke.
Dom brought it up.:highfive
Michael The Disciple
06-16-2020, 09:09 AM
Mike, you shouldn't even talk!!! :laffatu
Meaning?
mfblume
06-16-2020, 09:19 AM
Because it is obvious we are living in the Millennium kingdom (or better, the new earth) :heeheehee
Exactly, if you know your bible! Isa 51:16.
mfblume
06-16-2020, 09:20 AM
Meaning?
I cannot speak for him, but, meaning, bro., that you have raised the issue of post-trib rapture in so many threads that had nothing to do with prophecy, that you can't talk about this to someone else. And I hardly ever raise the issue in the general forum area here.
Michael The Disciple
06-16-2020, 09:40 AM
I cannot speak for him, but, meaning, bro., that you have raised the issue of post-trib rapture in so many threads that had nothing to do with prophecy, that you can't talk about this to someone else. And I hardly ever raise the issue in the general forum area here.
I dont think thats true. That I am in an ongoing thread that someone else started on another topic and I bring post trib into it. I seriously doubt you can quote me in any.
mfblume
06-16-2020, 09:48 AM
I dont think thats true. That I am in an ongoing thread that someone else started on another topic and I bring post trib into it. I seriously doubt you can quote me in any.
I'm not saying any more about the issue than this last note, while I'd like you to see how many posts I made about eschatology on a thread that was not about it... But for the record, many times you spoke about music in the church and talked about IHOP and mentioned they are post trib., and post-trib came up many times as the priority in what churches you referred to in posts that were not about prophecy. Personally, I don't even rate a church by what prophetic slant they have, however you always list post-trib in any reference to what a church believes.
Michael The Disciple
06-16-2020, 10:44 AM
I'm not saying any more about the issue than this last note, while I'd like you to see how many posts I made about eschatology on a thread that was not about it... But for the record, many times you spoke about music in the church and talked about IHOP and mentioned they are post trib., and post-trib came up many times as the priority in what churches you referred to in posts that were not about prophecy. Personally, I don't even rate a church by what prophetic slant they have, however you always list post-trib in any reference to what a church believes.
Mike, I would say probably in very few if any of the times I mentioned liking IHOP because of post trib did I then start doing a teaching on it. I would usually mention I liked them because of post trib because someone in the thread was condemning them (or me) over this or that and I would try to explain that I support truth wherever it may be.
Nonetheless I should not have said what I said to you here. Carry on.
KeptByTheWord
06-16-2020, 05:17 PM
I think there's enough in the word that we can know ;) Our Lord knows and He revealed it! The seals were unsealed so we could know.
There's a popular opinion that we simply cannot know. Yet REVELATION, as in Book of Revelation, means unveiling, the opposite of not knowing. Howbeit, we do need to be in the Spirit to correctly know. Especially when Revelation said the things were to come to pass shortly after they were written. I think Jesus, especially, interpreted it for us.
Sorry, again. Just threw that thought in there.
Our Lord knows, He is the only one who fully knows, and indeed, I don't doubt that it is all very plainly and clearly written for us to understand all throughout scripture... but our understanding will be hindsight, I do believe.
Look at all the prophecies written about the coming of Jesus, and yet very few really understood what it was all about until after Jesus had died. Some understood in part, but most did not understand at all, and even then, it took Pentecost before many began to understand the full comprehension of what Jesus had been saying.
What has been written for us in scripture will someday make complete sense, and perhaps even some have it right... but it will take the completion of the event before we can all look back and say... ahaha... so that is what You were trying to tell us!
Evang.Benincasa
06-17-2020, 07:39 AM
I dont think thats true. That I am in an ongoing thread that someone else started on another topic and I bring post trib into it. I seriously doubt you can quote me in any.
You don’t think that’s true? Mike it’s true. If anyone wasted the time to pull up your posting history to wade through your posts. They would not only find comments, but whole mantras on what you believe. But that would be true about every poster on EVERY forum on the Internet. That’s what people do Mike, they talk about what they believe. What the problem is here, is that you just want to point out that someone is speaking of something other than what you believe. So it is you bringing the attention to eschatology. Because you are the eschatolyphile around here. You make sure we know that you are post trib, or some singer, or preacher, or religion is post trib. But you already know this. I had enough of your chest beating over on PalTalk concerning what you believe. So, Mike you are just like everyone you post what you believe. The problem is that you don’t believe you are like everyone. You are better then everyone. You are a sinless man, who knows more Bible than any housewife in Broward County. How do we know this? Because you often remind us.
Evang.Benincasa
06-17-2020, 08:01 AM
Our Lord knows, He is the only one who fully knows, and indeed, I don't doubt that it is all very plainly and clearly written for us to understand all throughout scripture... but our understanding will be hindsight, I do believe.
Look at all the prophecies written about the coming of Jesus, and yet very few really understood what it was all about until after Jesus had died. Some understood in part, but most did not understand at all, and even then, it took Pentecost before many began to understand the full comprehension of what Jesus had been saying.
What has been written for us in scripture will someday make complete sense, and perhaps even some have it right... but it will take the completion of the event before we can all look back and say... ahaha... so that is what You were trying to tell us!
Just like I always say.
Christians today believe they know more than Christians yesterday.
Because after all, the Book of the Revelation was meaningless to ALL our predecessors. Those were the guys told to figure an embossed brand which would be a number. The number would be a person’s name? Also these people would have to understand the Greek Alphabet in its numerical form. Yes mam we be smarter than anyone who came before us. We just wait for the evening news to tell us the meaning of the book of Revelation.
Michael The Disciple
06-17-2020, 02:13 PM
Dom:
You don’t think that’s true? Mike it’s true. If anyone wasted the time to pull up your posting history to wade through your posts. They would not only find comments, but whole mantras on what you believe.
If it was a thread started by another poster, and it was not in context of end times, and another poster was not baiting me I dont believe very many if any could be found.
That’s what people do Mike, they talk about what they believe. What the problem is here, is that you just want to point out that someone is speaking of something other than what you believe. So it is you bringing the attention to eschatology. Because you are the eschatolyphile around here. You make sure we know that you are post trib, or some singer, or preacher, or religion is post trib.
Yes we talk about what we believe. And I said I should not have said anything about it. I suppose with the Forum hanging by a thread we need any and all discussion we can provide. So IF......it were true that I bring post trib into every discussion going no big deal. It has become standard procudere to forget any topic that was started by someone and go anywhere with it.
I had enough of your chest beating over on PalTalk concerning what you believe.
Chest beating?
The problem is that you don’t believe you are like everyone. You are better then everyone. You are a sinless man, who knows more Bible than any housewife in Broward County. How do we know this? Because you often remind us.
I may not be like everyone else. I have never claimed to be "better" than anyone. As far as being sinless I dont take that as an insult. Do you think anyone is going into the Kingdom Of Heaven with sin in their life? To me to be "sinless" is supposed to be the norm in the Apostolic Christian Faith. If and when anyone myself included has sin in their life they are in great danger.
How do we know this? Because you often remind us.
Again you wrest the life out of anything one might say. No one will find a post or find anywhere on a recording where I claim to be better than anyone. Neither will anyone find one post where I "remind" anyone of such a thing.
When I preach perfection which you would agree we must, usually someone tauntingly, not sincerely will ask "do YOU have sin in your life"? If I answer I do not that would in no way be "beating my chest" or "reminding someone I am better than them".
It would be simply affirming Bible Christianity where we are to "sin not".
You know to be without sin is the "standard" Jesus gave.
Evang.Benincasa
06-17-2020, 10:17 PM
If it was a thread started by another poster, and it was not in context of end times, and another poster was not baiting me I dont believe very many if any could be found.
Mike, in threads about a singer, or a religious group, you will let us all know if they are post trib. Do I or Brother Blume do that? Ah, no. Mike you are no different than anyone else. You have a candy stick, that is beards, Post Trib, Jesus was God's man suit, and demons will one day land on the White House lawn to usher in the Beast.
Yes we talk about what we believe. And I said I should not have said anything about it. I suppose with the Forum hanging by a thread we need any and all discussion we can provide.
So, you wanted us to discuss Preterism? Really? OK, then why didn't you post more in the eschatological section of this forum? You use to do some drive bys, but you were in no way a contender. That's because all you believe is that Jesus returns after the tribulation. Forget whatever details there might be after that to explain. You just like saying two words post and trib. Everything else is left to assumption and imagination. Religious zealots usually soften up with age, because a little more balanced. But sadly what I have found in churchanity Charismatic a go go, you guys just become flaky and odder as the years go by.
So IF......it were true that I bring post trib into every discussion going no big deal. It has become standard procudere to forget any topic that was started by someone and go anywhere with it.
But Mike, that's like all discussion when people are hanging out. Questions arise, and some questions often change the discussion for a few pages. But, listen, you have led may a thread haywire, over your fetish concerning beards or not to beard.
Chest beating?
meaning of chest beating :conduct or expression marked by pompous or arrogant self-assertion. That's you from day one. From Paltalk to here.
I may not be like everyone else.
Actually you are. You are no different or better than anyone else sitting in a pew. Well, you don't sit in a pew, you sit in a room with a computer.
I have never claimed to be "better" than anyone.
Well, Mike, this is like a person in a discussion with you who would ask you "do you still sin?" Instead of that you guys go "I have never claimed to be "better" than anyone." No you have never to my knowledge may the proclamation, but you sure do allude to it. Remember you are just like Jesus in thought, and action. Correct?
As far as being sinless I dont take that as an insult.
It never was meant to be. But to hold to that belief, and think that someone is using that as a jab, is odd on your part. Because I don't take it as a jab when someone tells me that I believe in Jesus name baptism. Mike, I believe in perfection, as maturity. When you get a driver's license you are under the title SAFE DRIVER. Why? Because you were given a license, not because you had ever driven on the road. From that point you have to maintain that safeness, through behavior on the road. We are saved by grace, and not of works that we can boast about. Therefore a good tree will produce good fruits.
Do you think anyone is going into the Kingdom Of Heaven with sin in their life? To me to be "sinless" is supposed to be the norm in the Apostolic Christian Faith. If and when anyone myself included has sin in their life they are in great danger.
But you know something, all Christians know that, in all denominations.
Again you wrest the life out of anything one might say.
But you don't? Mike, are you enamoured by your own voice? Do you listen to your own teachings on tape or own YouTubes? Mike, maybe instead of us wasting our precious time going through the 1,000s of posts you made, maybe you would be better served doing that yourself. But, sadly, I don't think that would work. Because religious people are barnyard nuts to the point even when they see that they are wrong, they twist it up in their minds to make it right. This is called cognitive dissonance. Which I been trying to point that out on this forum for years. But, I have bigger fish to fry in my life, and finally my time here is coming to a curtain call.
No one will find a post or find anywhere on a recording where I claim to be better than anyone.
Mike, you don't get it? No one said that to you, I didn't write Michael Gibson SAID that he was better than everyone. No, that's just the takeaway, from reading your own PR in your posts.
Neither will anyone find one post where I "remind" anyone of such a thing.
When I preach perfection which you would agree we must, usually someone tauntingly, not sincerely will ask "do YOU have sin in your life"? If I answer I do not that would in no way be "beating my chest" or "reminding someone I am better than them".
It would be simply affirming Bible Christianity where we are to "sin not".
You know to be without sin is the "standard" Jesus gave.
Mike, you aren't Jesus.
You may want to look that way, but you are not Jesus.
Esaias
06-18-2020, 03:38 PM
Is America Mystery Babylon? I think so.
You think incorrectly.
Babylon in the Apocalypse is a power system that controlled the Roman Beast and through that Beast the oikomenos (habitable earth, essentially the area of the Roman Empire). It is the great city "where also our Lord was crucified". Jesus wasn't crucified in New York or Chicago or Washington DC but in Jerusalem.
Your futurism is extremely unsystematic and does not follow any kind of reasonable hermeneutic.
Michael The Disciple
06-18-2020, 06:53 PM
You think incorrectly.
Babylon in the Apocalypse is a power system that controlled the Roman Beast and through that Beast the oikomenos (habitable earth, essentially the area of the Roman Empire). It is the great city "where also our Lord was crucified". Jesus wasn't crucified in New York or Chicago or Washington DC but in Jerusalem.
Your futurism is extremely unsystematic and does not follow any kind of reasonable hermeneutic.
The 2 witnesses are killed in Jerusalem not Babylon. No one said differently.
My "futurism" flows nicely with the Bible. Chapter 18 shows the fall of Babylon. The merchants of the earth cry and mourn because no one buys their goods anymore. Jerusalem of 70ad was a besieged, impoverished people. Jerusalem nowadays is pretty much dependent on the USA for its very existence. The merchants of Earth are fully invested in the USA.
The next thing that happens Biblically speaking is the coming of Jesus for the resurrection and the battle of Armageddon. If we dont regard the chapter numbers pretty much the next thing happening is Jesus coming on a white horse gathering his people defeating the armies of Earth and the Beast and throwing Satan in the bottomless pit.
Evang.Benincasa
06-18-2020, 10:37 PM
the 2 witnesses are killed in jerusalem not babylon. No one said differently.
My "futurism" flows nicely with the bible. Chapter 18 shows the fall of babylon. The merchants of the earth cry and mourn because no one buys their goods anymore. Jerusalem of 70ad was a besieged, impoverished people. jerusalem nowadays is pretty much dependent on the usa for its very existence. The merchants of earth are fully invested in the usa.
The next thing that happens biblically speaking is the coming of jesus for the resurrection and the battle of armageddon. If we dont regard the chapter numbers pretty much the next thing happening is jesus coming on a white horse gathering his people defeating the armies of earth and the beast and throwing satan in the bottomless pit.
Not The ISRAEL of the BIBLE!!!!
You know something Mike, this is why no one looks at people like you as having any understanding of world history. The Jews "modern Jews" understand that they are a people of a "religion" not actually descendants of the Bible "Judeans." Hence Zionism was created to give religious Jews an option, to be JEWISH without religion. This is pretty much 101. Israel today has as much to do with the Bible as the Mormons of Utah. They aren't descendants of anyone in the Bible. Not one Jew living today can PROVE that they are descendants of anyone mentioned at any time in the Bible. But you are more in lock step with flat earthers, and Alien abductees. Because no matter how much historical fact and Biblical proof is paraded before you, you will continue to promote fantasy as Bible truth. Israel today? Today? Mike Israel today was created out of whole cloth. Hebrew language was a liturgical language during the time of Christ. By the Medieval times the so called Jews spoke the languages of their birth countries, yet created language as the Ladino, or Yiddish. The Zionists wanted to do away with the Jewish languages, and replace it with Hebrew. Hence Eliezer Ben-Yehuda was the one who spearheaded the revival of Hebrew. Mike, there is NO Biblical Israel, or Judian. In the book of Ezra 2:59-63 and Nehemiah 7:5 we are told how a Judean going back to the promise land was to prove either they were a priest, or a member of the commonwealth of Israel. It was to be done through registry, genealogy. Reason why genealogy is so important in the Bible. Even concerning the advent of the Christ. Yet, with you, that is just a minor glitch. Mike, King James of Scotland once said this, about those who wanted the Jews of his time to return and rebuild Jerusalem. He stated that how could anyone believe that the Jews living in his time could be the same Jews of the Bible? 400 years ago an English King didn't believe what you currently believe. Why? Because what you believe wasn't yet in fashion.
Esaias
06-18-2020, 10:43 PM
The 2 witnesses are killed in Jerusalem not Babylon. No one said differently.
My "futurism" flows nicely with the Bible. Chapter 18 shows the fall of Babylon. The merchants of the earth cry and mourn because no one buys their goods anymore. Jerusalem of 70ad was a besieged, impoverished people. Jerusalem nowadays is pretty much dependent on the USA for its very existence. The merchants of Earth are fully invested in the USA.
The next thing that happens Biblically speaking is the coming of Jesus for the resurrection and the battle of Armageddon. If we dont regard the chapter numbers pretty much the next thing happening is Jesus coming on a white horse gathering his people defeating the armies of Earth and the Beast and throwing Satan in the bottomless pit.
Futurism does NOT "flow nicely with the Bible", primarily because the Bible itself does NOT interpret prophecy using the futurist approach or paradigm. When one examines Bible prophecy starting in Genesis and continuing forward, and examines fulfilled prophecy as described in the Scripture itself as well as in known history one discovers that the Bible does not follow futurism's worldview or hermeneutic. Futurists are almost universally ignorant of the bigger picture presented by Bible prophecy, instead focusing on single prophecies (rather myopically) outside of the larger context of the overall message of prophecy.
Your post above is a perfect example of what I am talking about. You immediately begin with Revelation ch 18! You then immediately ASSUME the chapter is speaking of CURRENT events for no reason whatsoever. You see the merchants of the earth mentioned in ch 18, you assume "the merchants of the earth today are vested in the United States", and then you draw the completely unwarranted, unproven, and frankly unjustifiable conclusion the US is Babylon and the chapter refers to imminent events in the future of the US!!!!
Have you ever stopped to ask yourself something like the following: Let's assume you were living in the mid to late 1700s. With YOUR approach to the Bible you would be adamant that Mystery Babylon was the United Kingdom of Great Britain, centered in London. 200 years previously, you would have just as adamantly assumed Mystery Babylon was centered in Madrid. Supposing you live another 100 years you would likely be assuming Mystery Babylon was centered in Beijing (the way things are going, anyway).
But let's back up just a bit. Why do you look at chapter 18 and assume the prophetic clock starts now, in the 20-21st centuries? Why do you assume the book of Revelation shows "things that are to come" but with a near 2000 year GAP OF TOTAL SILENCE until YOU and YOUR generation come along? How is it that you cannot see how completely suspect such an approach is? Just about all Bible prophecy just so happens to devolve down to YOU, YOUR COUNTRY, and YOUR GENERATION? And why? What causes you to even think that? What leads you to that line of thinking?
Anyways, the BIBLE in the Revelation speaks of TWO CITIES, the new and heavenly Jerusalem, and the great city that reigns over the kings of the earth/Babylon/spiritually called Sodom and Egypt/where also our Lord was crucified. This is the same parallel Paul taught about, the difference between the two Jerusalems, one which is above and is the mother of us all, and the other which is in bondage and which persecutes the citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem. The New Testament is indeed "a tale of two cities" but somehow you completely missed the significance of that.
You say the modern city of Jerusalem "nowadays is pretty much dependent on the USA for its very existence". You obviously do not understand history nor do you understand modern geopolitics. This is understandable, though, because neither real history nor reality in general are subjects of instruction in the modern American education system, and haven't been since about the 1930s.
As Paul explained, and as the Revelation itself reveals, neither of the two Jerusalems are limited to literal municipal districts or jurisdictions located in specific geographical locations. They are POWER STRUCTURES, one heavenly, one earthly, one divine, one demonic, one Christian, one TALMUDIC.
mfblume
06-19-2020, 06:36 AM
The biggest blunder of futurism is that it places a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel, which is absolutely ridiculous. Israel was in Babylon for 70 years, due to neglecting 70 sabbath years (every seven years Israel was to let the land rest and not prune nor sow crops). There were no gaps between the sabbath years they neglected. There we're no gaps in the 70 years they were in Babylon. And the 70 additional weeks of years (70 more sabbath years), why would we insert a gap of thousands of years when the timeframe was claimed to have 6 things take place in it.
In light of that, a future trib of THOSE seven years from the 70th week is utterly nonsensical. UNbelievable how that EVWER caught on.
Michael The Disciple
06-19-2020, 10:34 AM
The biggest blunder of futurism is that it places a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel, which is absolutely ridiculous. Israel was in Babylon for 70 years, due to neglecting 70 sabbath years (every seven years Israel was to let the land rest and not prune nor sow crops). There were no gaps between the sabbath years they neglected. There we're no gaps in the 70 years they were in Babylon. And the 70 additional weeks of years (70 more sabbath years), why would we insert a gap of thousands of years when the timeframe was claimed to have 6 things take place in it.
In light of that, a future trib of THOSE seven years from the 70th week is utterly nonsensical. UNbelievable how that EVWER caught on.
What about the GAP in your own theory? Mike Blume partial preterism. The gap between Rev 18 and 19? We go from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad to the coming of Jesus Christ when the rapture happens. About a 2000 year gap I believe.
Also you have no problem with making null and void Jesus teaching on the end time events for believers in many generations so you can apply them to the 1st century of believers only.
Unbelievable that "Apostolic" Christians reject end time prophecy. But oh yea we must remember 70 ad was all there is to the end times!
But oh yea we are now already living in the 1000 years of Christs reign over the nations!
Really! Take a look around!
Michael The Disciple
06-19-2020, 10:40 AM
Now on a thread thats entitled "Free Seattle" the warriors for no Jews matter, partial preterism and historicism are here to do battle! To pray for Seattle?
No. To rob the end time believer of the light Jesus gave.
When you see these things begin to happen look up your redemption draws near.
diakonos
06-19-2020, 11:27 AM
Yet your eschatology is nothing but “I think this means this...”
Evang.Benincasa
06-19-2020, 05:26 PM
Futurism does NOT "flow nicely with the Bible", primarily because the Bible itself does NOT interpret prophecy using the futurist approach or paradigm. When one examines Bible prophecy starting in Genesis and continuing forward, and examines fulfilled prophecy as described in the Scripture itself as well as in known history one discovers that the Bible does not follow futurism's worldview or hermeneutic. Futurists are almost universally ignorant of the bigger picture presented by Bible prophecy, instead focusing on single prophecies (rather myopically) outside of the larger context of the overall message of prophecy.
Your post above is a perfect example of what I am talking about. You immediately begin with Revelation ch 18! You then immediately ASSUME the chapter is speaking of CURRENT events for no reason whatsoever. You see the merchants of the earth mentioned in ch 18, you assume "the merchants of the earth today are vested in the United States", and then you draw the completely unwarranted, unproven, and frankly unjustifiable conclusion the US is Babylon and the chapter refers to imminent events in the future of the US!!!!
Have you ever stopped to ask yourself something like the following: Let's assume you were living in the mid to late 1700s. With YOUR approach to the Bible you would be adamant that Mystery Babylon was the United Kingdom of Great Britain, centered in London. 200 years previously, you would have just as adamantly assumed Mystery Babylon was centered in Madrid. Supposing you live another 100 years you would likely be assuming Mystery Babylon was centered in Beijing (the way things are going, anyway).
But let's back up just a bit. Why do you look at chapter 18 and assume the prophetic clock starts now, in the 20-21st centuries? Why do you assume the book of Revelation shows "things that are to come" but with a near 2000 year GAP OF TOTAL SILENCE until YOU and YOUR generation come along? How is it that you cannot see how completely suspect such an approach is? Just about all Bible prophecy just so happens to devolve down to YOU, YOUR COUNTRY, and YOUR GENERATION? And why? What causes you to even think that? What leads you to that line of thinking?
Anyways, the BIBLE in the Revelation speaks of TWO CITIES, the new and heavenly Jerusalem, and the great city that reigns over the kings of the earth/Babylon/spiritually called Sodom and Egypt/where also our Lord was crucified. This is the same parallel Paul taught about, the difference between the two Jerusalems, one which is above and is the mother of us all, and the other which is in bondage and which persecutes the citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem. The New Testament is indeed "a tale of two cities" but somehow you completely missed the significance of that.
You say the modern city of Jerusalem "nowadays is pretty much dependent on the USA for its very existence". You obviously do not understand history nor do you understand modern geopolitics. This is understandable, though, because neither real history nor reality in general are subjects of instruction in the modern American education system, and haven't been since about the 1930s.
As Paul explained, and as the Revelation itself reveals, neither of the two Jerusalems are limited to literal municipal districts or jurisdictions located in specific geographical locations. They are POWER STRUCTURES, one heavenly, one earthly, one divine, one demonic, one Christian, one TALMUDIC.
You think MTD even took the time to read the above?
Evang.Benincasa
06-19-2020, 05:36 PM
So now one can FORGE POSTS on the Forum?
You have felt free to hit my posts and myself all along. I guess thats what happens here.
FORGING POSTS and ascribing to someone else is a different story.
PS
I dont believe Esaias is responsible for this.
Forgery? Mike a forgery is creating a false copy of the real thing. Like painting the Mona Lisa, making an exact copy of the artwork in every detail. Yet, it isn't the original work. So, you still want to call the quote a forgery? Or just not your words? So, if you have doubts on the author, could you give us a hint who you believe created it? But isn't it ironic? Your doctrine is made up, so isn't it appropriate that someone made something up for you?
Evang.Benincasa
06-19-2020, 05:46 PM
Now on a thread thats entitled "Free Seattle" the warriors for no Jews matter, partial preterism and historicism are here to do battle! To pray for Seattle?
No. To rob the end time believer of the light Jesus gave.
When you see these things begin to happen look up your redemption draws near.
Now you don't believe people can be redeemed by the Cross?
When you see these things begin to happen look up your redemption draws near.
Yet, 16 verses before the above verse we read......
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Mike, so tell me? We are going to be brought before Jewish courts? You one day look for a time which you will face a Beth din? Ah, sure, good luck with the Marvel Universe. :thumbsup
Evang.Benincasa
06-19-2020, 05:49 PM
The biggest blunder of futurism is that it places a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel, which is absolutely ridiculous. Israel was in Babylon for 70 years, due to neglecting 70 sabbath years (every seven years Israel was to let the land rest and not prune nor sow crops). There were no gaps between the sabbath years they neglected. There we're no gaps in the 70 years they were in Babylon. And the 70 additional weeks of years (70 more sabbath years), why would we insert a gap of thousands of years when the timeframe was claimed to have 6 things take place in it.
In light of that, a future trib of THOSE seven years from the 70th week is utterly nonsensical. UNbelievable how that EVWER caught on.
Mike doesn't care about the details. You are talking to a man who can't get John 1:1 straight. You expect him to use math and the Bible? :heeheehee
Michael The Disciple
06-19-2020, 07:38 PM
Dom
Your doctrine is made up, so isn't it appropriate that someone made something up for you?
My doctrine is made up? You are the one that teaches Jesus Christ came and resurrected and raptured the Church in 70ad. That we now live in the new heavens and the new earth!I cant think of a bigger whopper that I ever heard taught in 46 years of listening to teachers or preachers.
diakonos
06-19-2020, 09:09 PM
So now one can FORGE POSTS on the Forum?
You have felt free to hit my posts and myself all along. I guess thats what happens here.
FORGING POSTS and ascribing to someone else is a different story.
PS
I dont believe Esaias is responsible for this.
No forgery. Attributing the quote to you. And if he didn’t do it, who did?
Esaias
06-19-2020, 09:22 PM
So now one can FORGE POSTS on the Forum?
You have felt free to hit my posts and myself all along. I guess thats what happens here.
FORGING POSTS and ascribing to someone else is a different story.
PS
I dont believe Esaias is responsible for this.
You need to get out more. Seriously.
Michael The Disciple
06-19-2020, 09:30 PM
Futurism does NOT "flow nicely with the Bible", primarily because the Bible itself does NOT interpret prophecy using the futurist approach or paradigm. When one examines Bible prophecy starting in Genesis and continuing forward, and examines fulfilled prophecy as described in the Scripture itself as well as in known history one discovers that the Bible does not follow futurism's worldview or hermeneutic. Futurists are almost universally ignorant of the bigger picture presented by Bible prophecy, instead focusing on single prophecies (rather myopically) outside of the larger context of the overall message of prophecy.
Thats strange. Jesus spoke to his disciples of things to come. Prophecies that would occur in the future. When those who teach against prophecy to yet come go back and try to explain their fulfilled in history theory we find out why most believers reject it.
Your post above is a perfect example of what I am talking about. You immediately begin with Revelation ch 18! You then immediately ASSUME the chapter is speaking of CURRENT events for no reason whatsoever. You see the merchants of the earth mentioned in ch 18, you assume "the merchants of the earth today are vested in the United States", and then you draw the completely unwarranted, unproven, and frankly unjustifiable conclusion the US is Babylon and the chapter refers to imminent events in the future of the US!!!!
I have said more than once IF WE ARE NOT.....IN THE END TIME it may not be the United States. It may be another country.
Its true I believe GENERALLY speaking we are close to the end time meaning the time of great tribulation, mark of the beast and Mystery Babylon, followed by the coming of Jesus and the resurrection.
As to making current events line up with prophecy if it lines up it lines up. It would be part of the puzzle fulfilled. While Prets and Historists howl against "futurists" for trying to analyze prophecy with current events they themselves try to analyze it by historical events they try to force into "fulfilled prophecy". Many times they disagree with each other.
Have you ever stopped to ask yourself something like the following: Let's assume you were living in the mid to late 1700s. With YOUR approach to the Bible you would be adamant that Mystery Babylon was the United Kingdom of Great Britain, centered in London. 200 years previously, you would have just as adamantly assumed Mystery Babylon was centered in Madrid. Supposing you live another 100 years you would likely be assuming Mystery Babylon was centered in Beijing (the way things are going, anyway).
Well on that you are right. Each generation SHOULD be looking for the signs of the end time. So far It has not yet been THE time. No one was wrong living in the past for trying to understand prophecy. They may have been wrong in their UNDERSTANDING of its fulfillment but certainly not in their attempt to do as Jesus said.
It would have seemed like Hitler was the beast in his time. But he was not. Again the time was not yet. If anyone taught dogmatically that he was they were teaching error. They could have waited to see further fulfillment before boldly teaching something that was not true.
On the other hand historists generally teach the locusts coming out of the bottomless pit as being Muslim invaders. They really think this fulfills the 5th trumpet of Revelation. But they HAVE TO try to find something they can connect their doctrine with historically.
But let's back up just a bit. Why do you look at chapter 18 and assume the prophetic clock starts now, in the 20-21st centuries? Why do you assume the book of Revelation shows "things that are to come" but with a near 2000 year GAP OF TOTAL SILENCE until YOU and YOUR generation come along? How is it that you cannot see how completely suspect such an approach is? Just about all Bible prophecy just so happens to devolve down to YOU, YOUR COUNTRY, and YOUR GENERATION? And why? What causes you to even think that? What leads you to that line of thinking?
Its not that prophecy was "waiting on me". Its that it is for a certain time in world history. The things in Matt 24, 1st and 2 Thessalonians, 2 Peter, and Revelation SEEM.......to be referring to a certain "end time" scenario. Some of us will be living on the earth when that time approaches. We or "they" will because of the fulfilling of ALL THE THINGS that were prophesied to occur understand they are the very generation Jesus spoke of.
To try to stretch out the relatively small bits of information we are given to work with over a period of thousands of years, one piece at a time, and that not being understood by those at the time they happened, and at a time when most people had no Bible or could not even read doesnt seem the best approach IMO.
As in 7 trumpets that are blown in what seems to be pretty quick succession in the Bible the historist approach would have them to be hundreds of years apart!
What leads me to this line of thinking is very simple.When Jesus gave his teaching in Matt 24 it looks like there are signs that will be "general". But he spoke of the generation that would see ALL THESE THINGS happen. Not one or two but all.
He seems to be referring to one certain generation. Every generation has the hope they might be that one. We have a blessed hope that Christ will come. The end time events could come into play quickly in any generation. Part of our faith to endure is that Christ will one day come.
Anyways, the BIBLE in the Revelation speaks of TWO CITIES, the new and heavenly Jerusalem, and the great city that reigns over the kings of the earth/Babylon/spiritually called Sodom and Egypt/where also our Lord was crucified. This is the same parallel Paul taught about, the difference between the two Jerusalems, one which is above and is the mother of us all, and the other which is in bondage and which persecutes the citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem. The New Testament is indeed "a tale of two cities" but somehow you completely missed the significance of that.
I am missing the connection you seem to be making between Jerusalem where the two witnesses die and Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babylon is said to be a place where apostles, prophets and saints are slain but is not called Jerusalem in the context.
Also "Babylon" could "spiritually" refer to any particular wicked nation just as Sodom can be branded upon any nation that has the same characteristics as it. Like today America itself is referred to as Sodom.
Obviously there is a certain nation/city at the very end God sees as Babylon. Also as stated Jerusalem is seen by God as "Sodom". The Babylon that is seen in Revelation and the Jerusalem of today do not look the same.
Now if over time Jerusalem looked more like the reality of Revelation 18 it could turn out to be the Babylon there. You all would turn out to be right. IF we are presently very close to the end it doesn't seem like Israel is a super rich importing country whose destruction would cause the worlds economy to collapse.
It seems more like a nation that could not even survive without help from America. I had a Jewish group call my house even today looking for donations.
The difference between the Jerusalem that is the mother of us all and that which persecutes her if seen in the context Paul uses in no way would fit that Jerusalem was ruling the kings of the Earth. She was at the time ruled over by Rome. Jerusalem ruled NO ONE in the time Paul wrote Galatians.
You say the modern city of Jerusalem "nowadays is pretty much dependent on the USA for its very existence". You obviously do not understand history nor do you understand modern geopolitics. This is understandable, though, because neither real history nor reality in general are subjects of instruction in the modern American education system, and haven't been since about the 1930s.
Since I understand nothing what could I say?
As Paul explained, and as the Revelation itself reveals, neither of the two Jerusalems are limited to literal municipal districts or jurisdictions located in specific geographical locations. They are POWER STRUCTURES, one heavenly, one earthly, one divine, one demonic, one Christian, one TALMUDIC.
I see no connection between what Paul wrote to the Galatians about the covenant from Mt Sinai and Mystery Babylon. Hes referring to the Old Testament and says the Jerusalem which was then was under bondage with her children. Far from ruling the nations and kings of the earth IMO.
Michael The Disciple
06-19-2020, 09:32 PM
You need to get out more. Seriously.
Meaning what? Did you write that post and attribute it to me?
diakonos
06-19-2020, 09:48 PM
Meaning what? Did you write that post and attribute it to me?
Yes he did
Esaias
06-19-2020, 09:54 PM
Meaning what? Did you write that post and attribute it to me?
I paraphrased what you were saying.
People around here are pretty much beyond rational discourse. Have fun.
mfblume
06-20-2020, 12:09 AM
What about the GAP in your own theory? Mike Blume partial preterism. The gap between Rev 18 and 19? We go from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad to the coming of Jesus Christ when the rapture happens. About a 2000 year gap I believe.
I see no gap between Rev 18 and 19. What are you talking about?
Also you have no problem with making null and void Jesus teaching on the end time events for believers in many generations so you can apply them to the 1st century of believers only.
I make none of His teachings null and void. Again, what are you referring to?
Unbelievable that "Apostolic" Christians reject end time prophecy. But oh yea we must remember 70 ad was all there is to the end times! You are using circular logic to make this conclusion. You are in effect saying that the endtimes were not the first century because the endtimes were not the first century, therefore, saying AD70 was the edntiems is wrong.
But oh yea we are now already living in the 1000 years of Christs reign over the nations!
Really! Take a look around!
You totally misunderstand the FACT that we rule with Christ now, seated with Him in heavenly places, miss the fact that satan is only bound to not gather nations in deception against the church until the end before the judgment (which could be happening now), and think Rev 20 teaches satan and sin does not exist during millennium.
You're too steeped in your misinterpretation of Rev 20 to see outside your box. I've been tehre, and I saw through it.
Again, the utter nonsense of a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks is utter madness.
Tell me this one, MTD, why are there babies born and death in existence in the new heaven and new earth that YOU believe occurs AFTER the white throne judgment when no death or sin is supposed to exist?
Isaiah 65:17-20.. I will create a new heaven and a new earth. Past things will not be remembered. They will not come to mind. ..(18).. Be glad, and rejoice forever in what I'm going to create, because I'm going to create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people to be a joy. ..(19).. I will rejoice about Jerusalem and be glad about my people. Screaming and crying will no longer be heard in the city. ..(20).. There will no longer be an infant who lives for only a few days or an old man who doesn't live a long life. Whoever lives to be a hundred years old will be thought of as young. Whoever dies before he is a hundred years old will be cursed as a sinner.
New heavens and earth in YOUR doctrine is AFTER millennium, not during it.
You need to go deeper into the word than the shallowness of dispensationalism and actually answer questions challenged to you about a gap in the 70 weeks rather than deflect and ask me about gaps in my belief that actually do not exist in my belief. Why is there a gap there, Michael?
The time span of my belief is in the millennium that SPANS many many years, (hello?) giving rise to my belief that Rev spans MANY MANY years from last days of the old covenant, which is what the last days refer to, until resurrection at the white throne.
mfblume
06-20-2020, 12:12 AM
I am missing the connection you seem to be making between Jerusalem where the two witnesses die and Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babylon is said to be a place where apostles, prophets and saints are slain but is not called Jerusalem in the context.
It is the GREAT CITY where OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED., Michael. What city was the site of Jesus' crucifixion?
The two witnesses are prophets.
Luk_13:33.. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Michael The Disciple
06-20-2020, 06:40 AM
I see no gap between Rev 18 and 19. What are you talking about?
I thought in one of your posts in the eschatology section you said you believed all of Revelation was fulfilled through Rev. 18. Did you write that?
mfblume
06-20-2020, 09:15 AM
I thought in one of your posts in the eschatology section you said you believed all of Revelation was fulfilled through Rev. 18. Did you write that?No.
1 Through 19. Then 20 has the thousand years which accounts for the span of time that distinctly notes accounted-for time in and of itself, so that no unspoken gap is involved as there is an unspoken gap in your view of Daniel 9.
Michael The Disciple
06-20-2020, 11:56 AM
No.
1 Through 19. Then 20 has the thousand years which accounts for the span of time that distinctly notes accounted-for time in and of itself, so that no unspoken gap is involved as there is an unspoken gap in your view of Daniel 9.
Ok I apologize. My memory failed me.
mfblume
06-20-2020, 12:00 PM
Ok I apologize. My memory failed me.
Thanks for asking. :thumbsup
n david
06-20-2020, 01:29 PM
2 shot, one dead the other in critical condition. Police detectives were unable to respond to the scene as a “violent” crowd prevented their entry into “CHOP”. Police were told that “CHOP” “medics” had transported both to a nearby hospital.
I wonder if the dead guy could have survived had actual paramedics been able to get to him in time.
I have nothing but contempt for both the woman Mayor of Seattle who has not just allowed this circus but has praised it, and for the Gov who first feigned ignorance and then claimed it to be peaceful and lawful.
Unfortunately Trump is between a rock and hard place. He could send the NG to clear it out. That would likely result in a shootout and deaths. And after clearing it out, there’s no guarantee the Mayor won’t let the protesters right back in.
Only thing Trump can really do is just sit back and allow it to descend into absolute bloodshed and chaos, allowing the blame to fall completely on the Mayor and Gov.
n david
06-20-2020, 01:37 PM
Coping mechanisms failing?
I paraphrased what you were saying.
People around here are pretty much beyond rational discourse. Have fun.
This was incredibly wrong. You didn’t paraphrase anything. You used the quote function and rewrote what was in the original post to make it appear it was something completely different.
I doubt Admin does anything around here anymore but this is deserving of a short vacation from AFF for you.
Michael The Disciple
06-20-2020, 01:52 PM
2 shot, one dead the other in critical condition. Police detectives were unable to respond to the scene as a “violent” crowd prevented their entry into “CHOP”. Police were told that “CHOP” “medics” had transported both to a nearby hospital.
I wonder if the dead guy could have survived had actual paramedics been able to get to him in time.
I have nothing but contempt for both the woman Mayor of Seattle who has not just allowed this circus but has praised it, and for the Gov who first feigned ignorance and then claimed it to be peaceful and lawful.
Unfortunately Trump is between a rock and hard place. He could send the NG to clear it out. That would likely result in a shootout and deaths. And after clearing it out, there’s no guarantee the Mayor won’t let the protesters right back in.
Only thing Trump can really do is just sit back and allow it to descend into absolute bloodshed and chaos, allowing the blame to fall completely on the Mayor and Gov.
I think Trump would do best to clear them out, indict them and let the chips fall. They took part of the United States, not just the city of Seattle. The lives of Americans held hostage should be his first concern.
diakonos
06-20-2020, 02:05 PM
This was incredibly wrong. You didn’t paraphrase anything. You used the quote function and rewrote what was in the original post to make it appear it was something completely different.
I doubt Admin does anything around here anymore but this is deserving of a short vacation from AFF for you.
Self moderating forum
Michael The Disciple
06-20-2020, 03:32 PM
Self moderating forum
Its getting to be a place where less and less people want to be.
Esaias
06-20-2020, 08:59 PM
This was incredibly wrong. You didn’t paraphrase anything. You used the quote function and rewrote what was in the original post to make it appear it was something completely different.
I doubt Admin does anything around here anymore but this is deserving of a short vacation from AFF for you.
Oh, people here who read the thread are likely to actually believe that was what MTD actually said? People here actually are likely to believe that I was really trying to get people to believe that was what he literally said?
You people have no sense.
But you are right about one thing, I DO need a vacation from AFF. So I'll take that as a word of wisdom. :thumbsup
Michael The Disciple
06-21-2020, 08:03 AM
No.
1 Through 19. Then 20 has the thousand years which accounts for the span of time that distinctly notes accounted-for time in and of itself, so that no unspoken gap is involved as there is an unspoken gap in your view of Daniel 9.
So it would appear based on the fact you believe Revelation 1-19 has all taken place that these events must have occured in the past, specifically in 70ad.
The marriage of the Lamb. 19:7-9
The coming of Jesus Christ with the armies of Heaven. 19:11
The defeat of the nations and the wrath of God. 19:15
The beast and his prophet were cast into the lake of fire. 19:20
His armies were slain by Jesus Christ. 19:21
Evang.Benincasa
06-21-2020, 08:15 AM
This was incredibly wrong. You didn’t paraphrase anything. You used the quote function and rewrote what was in the original post to make it appear it was something completely different.
I doubt Admin does anything around here anymore but this is deserving of a short vacation from AFF for you.
Bro, the Admin doesn't have to do anything. Some men need to act like men, and stop behaving like teenage girls when they feel slighted. Pretty much Mike acts like a girl at times. Complains about things which no one honestly cares about. Everyone is here to have fun, but Mike is a ecclesiastical high school diva, and see everyone else "Especially those who believe in Brand X eschatology" as his opponents. Go back and follow everything from Mike wanting to start a hair pulling contest with Brother Blume. His great zeal in wanting to expose the PRETERISTS, is got old a long time ago. He stirs the stink, and then when he gets a punch in the nose he starts to whine like he broke a nail. Through runny mascara weeping eyes he brings our attention to the lack of audience on the forum (meaning that he no one here reading his revelations) but that has been explained to him. That with Facebook, and all the other social platforms out there Vbulletin forums are fossils. Other forums which were also like the Vbulletin here are ghost towns with just a few or none posting. Mike is gloom and doom, maybe because his eschatology is all about things constantly going to hell, and every bad news report to be relished because it just brings us a little closer to a brighter day.
But, it's all a carrot on a stick.
Mike, do you have bad posture? Do you slouch when you walk? Contemplate this on the tree of woe.
Evang.Benincasa
06-21-2020, 08:21 AM
I thought in one of your posts in the eschatology section you said you believed all of Revelation was fulfilled through Rev. 18. Did you write that?
Ok I apologize. My memory failed me.
Typical Michael the Anti Disciple. Meaning you aren't a student, of Jesus, or anyone else. You apologize for having a bad memory. Mike, it is you against everyone else. That's why you aren't in a church, with any sort of accountability. Have a nice service today, with your congregation, of wife, and two dogs in a trailer.
Evang.Benincasa
06-21-2020, 08:32 AM
Its getting to be a place where less and less people want to be.
But that is because of everyone else? None of it would be your fault Melissa?
Michael The Disciple
06-21-2020, 08:51 AM
So it would appear based on the fact you believe Revelation 1-19 has all taken place that these events must have occured in the past, specifically in 70ad.
The marriage of the Lamb. 19:7-9
The coming of Jesus Christ with the armies of Heaven. 19:11
The defeat of the nations and the wrath of God. 19:15
The beast and his prophet were cast into the lake of fire. 19:20
His armies were slain by Jesus Christ. 19:21
This is the difference between what they call "futurism" and "preterism".
A "futurist" believes these things are yet to happen in the future.
A "preterist" view is all these things are past.
Evang.Benincasa
06-21-2020, 09:43 AM
This is the difference between what they call "futurism" and "preterism".
A "futurist" believes these things are yet to happen in the future.
A "preterist" view is all these things are past.
We aren't the bride of Christ, now?
What does 666 mean?
Also Mike, you NEVER even dealt with my previous post.
Now on a thread thats entitled "Free Seattle" the warriors for no Jews matter, partial preterism and historicism are here to do battle! To pray for Seattle?
No. To rob the end time believer of the light Jesus gave.
When you see these things begin to happen look up your redemption draws near.
Now you don't believe people can be redeemed by the Cross?
When you see these things begin to happen look up your redemption draws near.
Yet, 16 verses before the above verse we read......
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Mike, so tell me? We are going to be brought before Jewish courts? You one day look for a time which you will face a Beth din? Ah, sure, good luck with the Marvel Universe. :thumbsup
Mike, DO YOU BELIEVE in our near future we the Christian community will be dragged before Jewish religious courts. If you say no, then you CAN'T say Luke 21 applies to our future.
Michael The Disciple
06-21-2020, 10:33 AM
Bro, the Admin doesn't have to do anything. Some men need to act like men, and stop behaving like teenage girls when they feel slighted. Pretty much Mike acts like a girl at times. Complains about things which no one honestly cares about. Everyone is here to have fun, but Mike is a ecclesiastical high school diva, and see everyone else "Especially those who believe in Brand X eschatology" as his opponents. Go back and follow everything from Mike wanting to start a hair pulling contest with Brother Blume. His great zeal in wanting to expose the PRETERISTS, is got old a long time ago. He stirs the stink, and then when he gets a punch in the nose he starts to whine like he broke a nail. Through runny mascara weeping eyes he brings our attention to the lack of audience on the forum (meaning that he no one here reading his revelations) but that has been explained to him. That with Facebook, and all the other social platforms out there Vbulletin forums are fossils. Other forums which were also like the Vbulletin here are ghost towns with just a few or none posting. Mike is gloom and doom, maybe because his eschatology is all about things constantly going to hell, and every bad news report to be relished because it just brings us a little closer to a brighter day.
But, it's all a carrot on a stick.
Mike, do you have bad posture? Do you slouch when you walk? Contemplate this on the tree of woe.
Blessings Dom.
Evang.Benincasa
06-21-2020, 03:51 PM
Blessings Dom.
More Churchmen cursing? Because after all, it is just feigning a blessing upon me. Mike, what about my question? Luke 21 you brought up?
Luke 21:28
When everything I discussed with you starts to happen. Lift up your eyes because your redemption is coming near to you. Yet 16 verses before verse 28 which you quote for us to indicate its our future. Jesus' audience is clearly told that they will be brought before a Judean court called the Bet Din. Yet, you claim it is in our future. How do you explain this? Will there be a time when Christians will be dragged before the Bet Din (which isn't the same as the first century) and Luke 21:24 Jews being taken into slavery by every nation on earth? Jews will be made slaves? Future armies will no longer use guns but swords?
Michael The Disciple
06-21-2020, 08:16 PM
Now you don't believe people can be redeemed by the Cross?
When you see these things begin to happen look up your redemption draws near.
Yet, 16 verses before the above verse we read......
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Mike, so tell me? We are going to be brought before Jewish courts? You one day look for a time which you will face a Beth din? Ah, sure, good luck with the Marvel Universe. :thumbsup
People can be redeemed by what happened at the cross. Jesus was speaking about the day it becomes full reality.
Paul understood this.
Romans 8:22-23
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Ephesians 4:30
30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
So yes Jesus said when these things begin to happen your redemption is near. He meant the gathering together of the saints at a future time. The same concept as the resurrection of the dead and catching up of the saints.
Some cannot seem to see that there is a "spiritual" work in redemption but also a "literal" work. If one puts all the emphasis on the spiritual aspect and leaves out the literal we wind up with problems in rightly dividing the word of truth.
We are redeemed spiritually at present but in the FUTURE we will be literally redeemed. Actually and not just by faith. Like saying we are "saved" now but if we endure to the end we will be saved.
Altho Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience in regard to the signs they were to watch for those things were not EXCLUSIVELY for the Jews.
Earthquakes in divers places, famines, pestilence, persecution of his disciples in all nations, not just in Judea. Signs in the sun and moon and tribulation so severe if Christ doesnt return to end it NO FLESH would be saved.
No flesh doesnt sound like hes just talking about a small place like Judea.
So the end generation will see all the signs unfolding before their redemption/resurrection.
diakonos
06-21-2020, 08:39 PM
Please address being on trial in the synagogues.
Michael The Disciple
06-21-2020, 09:07 PM
Please address being on trial in the synagogues.
Some will be.
coksiw
06-22-2020, 09:57 AM
Please address being on trial in the synagogues.
Jesus was prophesying. Prophecies in the Bible could be referring to two different events in the same passage. If you want to see precedents of that in the Bible itself, see the prophecies that the New Testament says that it was fulfilled in Jesus (e.g the first chapters in the book of Matthew), and then go back to the Old Testament and see the context in which it was said.
And in general, the best book to learn Bible prophecy is the Bible itself. See the prophecies that were told in the Bible and were also fulfilled, especially those that the Bible itself says that such event was the fulfillment of it.
Regarding the synagogues thing, Jesus said right before that there will be great signs, and pestilence, and such. Then he said, "before all these", setting a sequence of events (not a timeline).
That part of the prophecy definitely came to past, as the apostles suffered it. The part right before about the signs I don't think so. You would have to allegorized the part about great signs in the sky to believe so. But then, when do you stop allegorizing that prophecy? The context doesn't give any indication that that's a figure of speech.
The Bible has definitely figures of speech. You can find them by the context. But you can't take a figure of speech from one place to argue that in another place a phrase is a figure of speech as well (as some false doctrine teachers like to do to prove their point). You don't do that in your plain english speaking and literature. God used plain language with all their richness to speak to us. I can't say "I opened the door for him" is always a figure of speech because somebody used it in some book as a figure of speech. You have to look at the context to figure it out.
Going back to the prophecy, it follows the typical pattern of prophecies from a prophet in the Bible: prediction of short term events, which confirms the credibility of the prophet (Deut 18:18-22), and then long term events. For example, Jeremiah prophesied about the captivity (short term), but also of the coming of the Messiah (long term).
Nevertheless, Christians has always been judged and sent to prison for their believes. It is more like an ongoing thing anyway.
Michael The Disciple
06-22-2020, 10:28 AM
Jesus was prophesying. Prophecies in the Bible could be referring to two different events in the same passage. If you want to see precedents of that in the Bible itself, see the prophecies that the New Testament says that it was fulfilled in Jesus (e.g the first chapters in the book of Matthew), and then go back to the Old Testament and see the context in which it was said.
And in general, the best book to learn Bible prophecy is the Bible itself. See the prophecies that were told in the Bible and were also fulfilled, especially those that the Bible itself says that such event was the fulfillment of it.
Regarding the synagogues thing, Jesus said right before that there will be great signs, and pestilence, and such. Then he said, "before all these", setting a sequence of events (not a timeline).
That part of the prophecy definitely came to past, as the apostles suffered it. The part right before about the signs I don't think so. You would have to allegorized the part about great signs in the sky to believe so. But then, when do you stop allegorizing that prophecy? The context doesn't give any indication that that's a figure of speech.
The Bible has definitely figures of speech. You can find them by the context. But you can't take a figure of speech from one place to argue that in another place a phrase is a figure of speech as well (as some false doctrine teachers like to do to prove their point). You don't do that in your plain english speaking and literature. God used plain language with all their richness to speak to us. I can't say "I opened the door for him" is always a figure of speech because somebody used it in some book as a figure of speech. You have to look at the context to figure it out.
Going back to the prophecy, it follows the typical pattern of prophecies from a prophet in the Bible: prediction of short term events, which confirms the credibility of the prophet (Deut 18:18-22), and then long term events. For example, Jeremiah prophesied about the captivity (short term), but also of the coming of the Messiah (long term).
Nevertheless, Christians has always been judged and sent to prison for their believes. It is more like an ongoing thing anyway.
Exactly:highfive
mfblume
06-22-2020, 09:24 PM
Jesus was prophesying. Prophecies in the Bible could be referring to two different events in the same passage. If you want to see precedents of that in the Bible itself, see the prophecies that the New Testament says that it was fulfilled in Jesus (e.g the first chapters in the book of Matthew), and then go back to the Old Testament and see the context in which it was said.
I've seen this error before.
The bible only has prophecies that are fulfilled twice when the first one is in the Old Testament as a SHADOW of what will happen again in the New Testament. There are never two fulfillments of a prophecy after the cross in the new testament that can be proved.
Solomon fulfilled the prophecy to David of his son building the temple and that was fulfilled a second time with Jesus, the greater Son of David.
mfblume
06-22-2020, 09:26 PM
So it would appear based on the fact you believe Revelation 1-19 has all taken place that these events must have occured in the past, specifically in 70ad.
The marriage of the Lamb. 19:7-9
The coming of Jesus Christ with the armies of Heaven. 19:11
The defeat of the nations and the wrath of God. 19:15
The beast and his prophet were cast into the lake of fire. 19:20
His armies were slain by Jesus Christ. 19:21
Yes.
The going forth of Jesus with armies stands for the gosp[el going out to all the world.
Michael The Disciple
06-22-2020, 09:40 PM
Yes.
The going forth of Jesus with armies stands for the gosp[el going out to all the world.
In your opinion.
coksiw
06-22-2020, 10:25 PM
I've seen this error before.
Me too:
[2Ti 2:15-18 NKJV] 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane [and] idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
mfblume
06-23-2020, 08:49 AM
In your opinion.
Of course, and your opinion is a gap exists in a chapter where a gap is not mentioned, and it would be silly to say they can expect 6 things to occur in a matter of 490 years and then throw in two thousand years between the last 14 years, sort of defeating the purpose of giving a timeframe at all!
And the sword coming from his mouth is the word of God being preached and conquests are taking place because the all-important factor is that the kingdom is HERE NOW, and we are going forth with Jesus and seeing the kingdom fill the earth. It's not a coming kingdom, His Kingdom came!
The easiest case to prove about this whole future trib idea is the fact that there cannot be a gap in the 70 weeks anywhere. The future trib idea is SOLELY based on a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. And that is so easy to disprove that the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. So I challenge every future trib proponent to see how in the world there could be a gap in those weeks. You cannot have a future trib period that surrounds a seven-year timeframe if that gap does not exist in those weeks.
mfblume
06-23-2020, 08:50 AM
Me too:
[2Ti 2:15-18 NKJV] 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane [and] idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
Amen! The resurrection iS TO COME! I never said it happened. So, you have some misapplication about whom that passage is directed to. Please show me a double fulfillment of prophecy where both prophecies came to pass after the cross and day of Pentecost, and not a conjecture that the second fulfillment of a prophecy, with the first after the cross, is yet to occur because you cannot prove that. You need a doubly fulfilled prophecy where BOTH instances already occurred after the cross to prove that point.
And to be fair, although I disagree with them, those who claim a resurrection happened in AD70 (which does not include me) also believe they believers are resurrected when they pass away, and that is not past.
Michael The Disciple
06-23-2020, 09:36 AM
Of course, and your opinion is a gap exists in a chapter where a gap is not mentioned, and it would be silly to say they can expect 6 things to occur in a matter of 490 years and then throw in two thousand years between the last 14 years, sort of defeating the purpose of giving a timeframe at all!
And the sword coming from his mouth is the word of God being preached and conquests are taking place because the all-important factor is that the kingdom is HERE NOW, and we are going forth with Jesus and seeing the kingdom fill the earth. It's not a coming kingdom, His Kingdom came!
The easiest case to prove about this whole future trib idea is the fact that there cannot be a gap in the 70 weeks anywhere. The future trib idea is SOLELY based on a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. And that is so easy to disprove that the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. So I challenge every future trib proponent to see how in the world there could be a gap in those weeks. You cannot have a future trib period that surrounds a seven-year timeframe if that gap does not exist in those weeks.
As I evidently was wrong about you saying there was a gap between Rev 18-19 you are wrong to assume I believe in the 7 year gap theory. You wont find anywhere on the forum where I have promoted it. You will find if you recall I mentioned that to you before. There are other post trib who dont bet the farm on the 7 year gap theory.
To me its a theory. I lean not to accept it. Certainly far more chance of it being true however than that Rev. 1-19 has all been fulfilled.
Michael The Disciple
06-23-2020, 12:09 PM
And to be fair, although I disagree with them, those who claim a resurrection happened in AD70 (which does not include me) also believe they believers are resurrected when they pass away, and that is not past.
They try to save themselves from the heresy of preterism by falling back on the almost equally damaging heresy of immortal soul. And putting it in an individual mode rather than the corporate the Bible teaches.
Talk about a gap! The resurrection they say took place in 70ad but there have been individual "resurrections" taking place daily for several thousand years!
coksiw
06-23-2020, 12:24 PM
They try to save themselves from the heresy of preterism by falling back on the almost equally damaging heresy of immortal soul. And putting it in an individual mode rather than the corporate the Bible teaches.
Talk about a gap! The resurrection they say took place in 70ad but there have been individual "resurrections" taking place daily for several thousand years!
I yet have to see the news that there are lots of empty coffins. Preterism is one of the most damaging heresy in the Apostolic groups. Once you start allegorizing the Scripture, there is not limit.
mfblume
06-23-2020, 12:45 PM
As I evidently was wrong about you saying there was a gap between Rev 18-19 you are wrong to assume I believe in the 7 year gap theory. You wont find anywhere on the forum where I have promoted it. You will find if you recall I mentioned that to you before. There are other post trib who dont bet the farm on the 7 year gap theory.
To me its a theory. I lean not to accept it. Certainly far more chance of it being true however than that Rev. 1-19 has all been fulfilled.
There is no way a gap can be inserted into the 70 weeks and be more reasonable than the idea of Rev 1-19 being fulfilled. No way. I have Jesus making statements that corroborate with Revelation's words, speaking of the generation to whom he ministered.
But please elaborate on your no-gap theory. The ONLY reason anyone thinks there is a seven years period ahead is the gap theory. That is where it came from! Those who propose a future trib idea and do not know that do not know where their doctrine derived from.
Do you believe the HE in Dan 9:24 is antichrist or Jesus Christ? That will tell the tale. Thanks!
mfblume
06-23-2020, 12:49 PM
I yet have to see the news that there are lots of empty coffins. Preterism is one of the most damaging heresy in the Apostolic groups. Once you start allegorizing the Scripture, there is not limit.
You do not even understand what full preterists teach to say this. So, in effect, you are making a strawman argument. They do not believe there are empty graves. Brother, it is "Christian" to know what a person actually believes before you assume the wrong thing and attack what they do not even believe. So, in effect, your words are totally meaningless and unreliable since you did not even go about checking their beliefs before spouting off a severe accusation that does not even apply to them. And if you failed to do that properly, what can we think about anything you say about the entire issue? You already confused me with that same belief which is not the case. Now you are accusing full preterists of things they patently do not believe, like empty coffins since AD70.
Sorry, but those who cannot even check things out properly before accusing are not worth listening to about anything else. What else did they get wrong about another belief before they attacked that other belief? Who are you?
You said it is heresy and YOU DID NOT EVEN KNOW THEIR PROPER UNDERSTANDING! Wow!
Look, take a break and learn about these beliefs before you jump on here and make more of a fool of yourself. like you just did.
coksiw
06-23-2020, 02:24 PM
You do not even understand what full preterists teach to say this. So, in effect, you are making a strawman argument. They do not believe there are empty graves. Brother, it is "Christian" to know what a person actually believes before you assume the wrong thing and attack what they do not even believe. So, in effect, your words are totally meaningless and unreliable since you did not even go about checking their beliefs before spouting off a severe accusation that does not even apply to them. And if you failed to do that properly, what can we think about anything you say about the entire issue? You already confused me with that same belief which is not the case. Now you are accusing full preterists of things they patently do not believe, like empty coffins since AD70.
Sorry, but those who cannot even check things out properly before accusing are not worth listening to about anything else. What else did they get wrong about another belief before they attacked that other belief? Who are you?
You said it is heresy and YOU DID NOT EVEN KNOW THEIR PROPER UNDERSTANDING! Wow!
Look, take a break and learn about these beliefs before you jump on here and make more of a fool of yourself. like you just did.
Preterism comes in different flavors. I don't know what kind you are. However, please let me ask you a question regarding the verse I posted earlier "saying that the resurrection is already past". Was Paul referring to the resurrection in 70AD or the one after the Millenium? Let's call it the "Paul-Tim resurrection". Is the Paul-Tim resurrection a past event to you?
You seem offended for my post addressed to MTD, and I apologize. I should have remembered that full preterist believe in a spiritual resurrection. I haven't dealt with them in person in a while. All I remember is a large spectrum of believes where the core problem is the lack of consistency in Biblical interpretation. They have the same spirit behind the Alexandrian school of thoughts. How much they allegorize is what determines their place in the spectrum between full and partial.
I wasn't trying to start a discussion with you about preterism. I was answering first diakonos question, and then making a comment to MTD. Like I said, preterism of any kind have a key issue that makes discussion fruitless: they don't have a consistent hermeneutics, they allegorize the Scripture in the places where a gramatical interpretation doesn't fit their view.
mfblume
06-23-2020, 02:50 PM
Preterism comes in different flavors.
If you studied it out you would know that the brethren here do not believe any graves were emptied.
I don't know what kind you are.
And you could have asked before you spoke.
However, please let me ask you a question regarding the verse I posted earlier "saying that the resurrection is already past". Was Paul referring to the resurrection in 70AD or the one after the Millenium? Let's call it the "Paul-Tim resurrection". Is the Paul-Tim resurrection a past event to you?
I already told you that I do not believe a resurrection occurred in AD70. The resurrection Paul spoke about is FUTURE and is OUR resurrection that we await. THE LAST ONE ever to occur, btw.
You seem offended for my post addressed to MTD, and I apologize.I was not offended because it did not apply to me.
I should have remembered that full preterist believe in a spiritual resurrection. I haven't dealt with them in person in a while. All I remember is a large spectrum of believes where the core problem is the lack of consistency in Biblical interpretation.
Everyone says that about a belief they disagree with, though.
They have the same spirit behind the Alexandrian school of thoughts. How much they allegorize is what determines their place in the spectrum between full and partial.
I wasn't trying to start a discussion with you about preterism. I was answering first diakonos question, and then making a comment to MTD. Like I said, preterism of any kind have a key issue that makes discussion fruitless: they don't have a consistent hermeneutics, they allegorize the Scripture in the places where a gramatical interpretation doesn't fit their view.
I am partial preterist and I see a spiritual reference in prophecy, predominantly Revelation, where the rest of the bible uses that same picture as spiritual and not literal.
Rev 1:1 stated it as all symbolic, and yet the points that are not, like the timeframes of soon and at hand, that are noted outside a vision, are taken spiritually by futurists. It's exactly the opposite of what the book itself says.
Your view is a recent one that started in 1830. Dispensationalism is an utter embarrassment, bro.
coksiw
06-23-2020, 04:50 PM
If you studied it out you would know that the brethren here do not believe any graves were emptied.
And you could have asked before you spoke.
I already told you that I do not believe a resurrection occurred in AD70. The resurrection Paul spoke about is FUTURE and is OUR resurrection that we await. THE LAST ONE ever to occur, btw.
I was not offended because it did not apply to me.
Everyone says that about a belief they disagree with, though.
I am partial preterist and I see a spiritual reference in prophecy, predominantly Revelation, where the rest of the bible uses that same picture as spiritual and not literal.
Rev 1:1 stated it as all symbolic, and yet the points that are not, like the timeframes of soon and at hand, that are noted outside a vision, are taken spiritually by futurists. It's exactly the opposite of what the book itself says.
Your view is a recent one that started in 1830. Dispensationalism is an utter embarrassment, bro.
In Revelation, symbols are tools of the languages. Many of the symbols are explained in the book itself, and they tell you what they represent.
They are not to be interpreted as allegories of events that will not historically happen. Daniel is a book that can be used to understand how to interpret Revelation. There is no allegories in Daniel interpretation, but symbols representing historical events.
A great example of the right interpretation of symbolic dreams is the case of Joseph's dream:
[Gen 37:10 KJV] 10 And he told [it] to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What [is] this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
Notice that Jacob quickly made a sensible interpretation. He recognized the symbols and he then understood that they were actual people and actual events in symbols. Joseph's mother had died, and Jacob didn't understand the bowing part. He seemed nonsense that all of them, including Joseph's mother already dead, would bow.
What did Jacob do? He "kept the matter in mind". And that's what we should do sometimes. If we don't understand a prophecy, instead of speculating, simply keep it in our heart (memorize it), so when it happens, we can recognize the time and glorify God. Isn't that what Revelation says?
[Rev 1:3 NKJV] 3 Blessed [is] he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time [is] near.
[Rev 22:9 NKJV] 9 Then he said to me, "See [that you do] not [do that]. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
When the prophecy came to pass, what did we see? The bowing was also a symbol. Joseph would historically achieve higher authority than the entire family, including the mother that already passed away.
Regarding "Dispensationalism", the Bible does use a covenant language. Dispensationalism is just a conceptualization of it in a timeline.
Esaias
06-23-2020, 05:54 PM
Regarding "Dispensationalism", the Bible does use a covenant language. Dispensationalism is just a conceptualization of it in a timeline.
That's kind of like saying "preterism is true because the Bible uses the term 'past', and preterism is a conceptualisation of that concept.".
Dispensationalism is not about covenantalism, it is about eras or "dispensations" during which God relates to man under certain distinct era-specific terms. Dispensationalism posits 7 Dispensations. These do not correspond with seven "covenants, conceptualised ... in a timeline."
coksiw
06-23-2020, 06:24 PM
That's kind of like saying "preterism is true because the Bible uses the term 'past', and preterism is a conceptualisation of that concept.".
Dispensationalism is not about covenantalism, it is about eras or "dispensations" during which God relates to man under certain distinct era-specific terms. Dispensationalism posits 7 Dispensations. These do not correspond with seven "covenants, conceptualised ... in a timeline."
You are right. I do not have a strong stand on Dispensations anyways, as it is an extrabiblical tool to make sense of things. Those conceptualizations have usually weaknesses and can bring more problems than solutions in the long term if you stretch it too much.
Dispensationalism tries to answer the question “how were people saved during that time” and looks at the main covenants to answer the question.
Hmmm, now that I think about it, people were always saved by biblical faith. All that people in the Bible that pleased God worshiped Him, had faith in Him, and walked in righteousness.
Michael The Disciple
06-23-2020, 08:17 PM
And the sword coming from his mouth is the word of God being preached and conquests are taking place because the all-important factor is that the kingdom is HERE NOW, and we are going forth with Jesus and seeing the kingdom fill the earth. It's not a coming kingdom, His Kingdom came!
Prets usually take half the truth. We have an "earnest" or "down payment" of the Kingdom NOW.
The greater part of the Kingdom is FUTURE.
2 Peter 1:10-11
10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
So Peter thought the Kingdom was YET TO COME.
I say that not one Pret has ever entered the Kingdom of God EXCEPT in an "earnest" situation.
1 Cor. 15: 50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
I think they all have flesh and blood so no the Kingdom has NOT YET COME for them.
When will it?
When Jesus comes! In the future!
1 Cor 15:
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
At the resurrection of the dead, at the last trumpet THEN we will in ACTUALITY enter into the Kingdom.
Paul was certain that the Kingdom was YET TO COME.
2 Tim. 4:1
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
4:18
18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
So excitement and zeal for something to be true does not make it true.
The Prets teach HALF TRUTH on the issue.
mfblume
06-24-2020, 09:18 AM
Prets usually take half the truth. We have an "earnest" or "down payment" of the Kingdom NOW.
The greater part of the Kingdom is FUTURE.
Of all the prophecies of the Old Testament that were referenced in the New, and you've heard me say this before, Psalm 110:1 is the most oft-quoted and referred to prophecy by both Jesus, the apostles, and the writers of the New Testament.
It's the keynote in the sermon of Peter on the day of Pentecost. And the early church was known for preaching another king, Jesus. ANd we hardly hear anyone in your camp ever talk about the current kingdom. It's always what is to come. We only hear you acknowledge the current kingdom when discussions like this raise the issue of your silence about it. Then you say, well, it is here, but greater.
I never said it woulD not becomE greater in the future, sow what's with the accusation that we only tell half the truth. I focus on NOW because it is here now, and we are here now.
The Lord and apostles DID NOT put MORE attention on the greater aspect to come, but on the prophecy where Jesus sat at the right hand, which happened 2000 years ago and kicked into motion this current kingdom that shall become greater.
I try to match the focus of my own ministry with the focus the bible puts on things. Since the apostles and Jesus put more focus on the seating at the throne than how greater it will become I likewise do the same. But you have it opposite. You hardly mention the seating at the throne. In all my years around many churches, hardly anyone stressed that, and then I saw where Jesus and the apostles stressed it more than any prophecy!
2 Peter 1:10-11
10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
So Peter thought the Kingdom was YET TO COME.
Peter:
Acts 2:30-36.. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; ..(31).. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. ..(32).. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. ..(33).. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. ..(34).. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, ..(35).. Until I make thy foes thy footstool. ..(36).. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
HIS FIRST SERMON on the day of Pentecost!
Just do a simple search of how many times Psalm 110:1 was alluded to or actually quoted.
I say that not one Pret has ever entered the Kingdom of God EXCEPT in an "earnest" situation.
Oh?
John 3:3.. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
We're not in the kingdom BY EARNEST. We have the EARNEST of hte SPirit, not of the kingdom!
2 Corinthians 1:22.. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
We're as born again into the kingdom as anyone could be in the kingdom. The only part that's not is our bodies...which shall be taken care on the resurrection.
Where is there any note of the earnest of the kingdom? Jesus said the Kingdom was at hand 2000 years ago, not in earnest 2000 hears ago.
1 Cor. 15: 50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
I think they all have flesh and blood so no the Kingdom has NOT YET COME for them.
Wow. what a distortion of what that verse means. FLESH AND BLOOD is speaking about ONE aspect of our beings that are not adapted to the kingdom yet, our bodies. It's a "periphrasis" of a simple reference to fallen bumanity, and the bodies are the parts of us that are still fallen. It's not talking about skin and hemoglobin, How do we not fight against flesh and blood but principalities when no one would ever think we were fighting hemoglobin and skin? It's a term referring to the fallen aspect of us, with our spirits and souls well in the KINGDOM that CAME!
We would not have the Holy Ghost if Jesus did not begin His kingdom, for Peter said that the Spirit was poured out BECAUSE Jesus sat down to rule. And HE RULES UNTIL all enemies are under his feet, NOT "AFTER".
The same chapter says this:
1 Corinthians 15:25.. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
HE RULES NOW. And we are in taht kingdom. IT CAME AT PENTECOST!
He sat on the right hand throne, which is an idiom for POWER throne, and we therefore have POWER.
Acts 1:8.. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
They preached and preached and preached about his enthronement! And we're seated on THAT THRONE WITH HIM!
When will it?
When Jesus comes! In the future!
1 Cor 15:
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Where does that say HIS KINGDOM COMES then? I read in the same chapter that his kingdom has started ever since he sat at the right hand and continues until all enemies are under his feet, not begins then. The Resurrection that you referred to is actually the point when his enemies are made his footstool. So, when we read he rules until the last enemy death is under his feet, and death is put under his feet and defeated when this mortal puts on immortality. You claim the kingdom STARTS then, but Paul in the same chapter says Jesus has been ruling that kingdom that came at Pentecost ever since his seating. THIS is a prime example of the error of Dispensationalism. Jews missed his Kingly entrance into the world by birth, and disps missed his kingdom that came at Pentecost.
At the resurrection of the dead, at the last trumpet THEN we will in ACTUALITY enter into the Kingdom.
Paul was certain that the Kingdom was YET TO COME.
2 Tim. 4:1
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
THAT is at the end when he judges at the white throne after all enemies have been put under his feet. He did not say the KINGDOM COMES at that point HE JUDGES in HIS KINGDOM When death goes into the lake, all enemies are under his feet. You have it perfectly backwards. He RULES UNTIL death is under his feet.
4:18
18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
So excitement and zeal for something to be true does not make it true.
The Prets teach HALF TRUTH on the issue.
No, you teach it backwards and we never said the kingdom does not increase. Your disp thought of the kingdom is upsidedown.
Michael The Disciple
06-24-2020, 12:16 PM
It's the keynote in the sermon of Peter on the day of Pentecost. And the early church was known for preaching another king, Jesus. ANd we hardly hear anyone in your camp ever talk about the current kingdom. It's always what is to come. We only hear you acknowledge the current kingdom when discussions like this raise the issue of your silence about it. Then you say, well, it is here, but greater.
I never said it woulD not becomE greater in the future, sow what's with the accusation that we only tell half the truth. I focus on NOW because it is here now, and we are here now.
You say it will get greater yes but you deny it is yet to come.
I do teach we are at the throne SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING. We are not there LITERALLY. If we were there literally there would be no need for Jesus to come again and receive us to himself.
But oh yea you believe thats already past.
Wow. what a distortion of what that verse means. FLESH AND BLOOD is speaking about ONE aspect of our beings that are not adapted to the kingdom yet, our bodies. It's a "periphrasis" of a simple reference to fallen bumanity, and the bodies are the parts of us that are still fallen. It's not talking about skin and hemoglobin, How do we not fight against flesh and blood but principalities when no one would ever think we were fighting hemoglobin and skin? It's a term referring to the fallen aspect of us, with our spirits and souls well in the KINGDOM that CAME!
In "preterism" words can never mean what they say. Paul clearly teaches that humans are not in the Kingdom of God in the verses. You teach the Kingdom of God is already come.
You deny the difference between entering "spiritually" and literally. You are the one distorting the truth. You do it by making the spiritual to be literal.
You claim the kingdom STARTS then, but Paul in the same chapter says Jesus has been ruling that kingdom that came at Pentecost ever since his seating.
Yes he has been ruling since Pentecost. "Spiritually" speaking. He will at HIS COMING defeat all the kingdoms of this world and reign over everything along with his newly immortal saints.
The Seventh Trumpet Rev. 11:15-18
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The Church IS an aspect of the Kingdom. We will become children of God LITERALLY and not just by faith at his appearing and Kingdom. At the resurrection of the dead.
Note the difference in the two truths.
Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Luke 20
35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
See? Right now we are the children of God by faith.
But AT THE RESURRECTION we shall be children of God LITERALLY!
When the last trumpet blows we will be made immortal and become rulers with Christ in his LITERAL REIGN over all of the world. We will LITERALLY be kings and priests as he begins his glorious work of the restoration of all things!
Michael The Disciple
06-24-2020, 12:24 PM
You claim the kingdom STARTS then, but Paul in the same chapter says Jesus has been ruling that kingdom that came at Pentecost ever since his seating. THIS is a prime example of the error of Dispensationalism. Jews missed his Kingly entrance into the world by birth, and disps missed his kingdom that came at Pentecost.
I agree his kingdom started at Pentecost "spiritually" speaking. You act like thats the same as when we as flesh and blood persons are CHANGED from mortal to immortal. From natural to spiritual. From terrestial to celestial. From earthly to heavenly.
In contrast to the Apostle Paul who said it happens LITERALLY at the last trump!
BTW I cant think of ANY Christian type group who does NOT teach we are seated in heavenly places NOW........spiritually speaking.
Esaias
06-24-2020, 01:50 PM
I agree his kingdom started at Pentecost "spiritually" speaking. You act like thats the same as when we as flesh and blood persons are CHANGED from mortal to immortal. From natural to spiritual. From terrestial to celestial. From earthly to heavenly.
In contrast to the Apostle Paul who said it happens LITERALLY at the last trump!
BTW I cant think of ANY Christian type group who does NOT teach we are seated in heavenly places NOW........spiritually speaking.
Face it, you just cannot follow a conversation.
Esaias
06-24-2020, 01:52 PM
You are right. I do not have a strong stand on Dispensations anyways, as it is an extrabiblical tool to make sense of things. Those conceptualizations have usually weaknesses and can bring more problems than solutions in the long term if you stretch it too much.
Dispensationalism tries to answer the question “how were people saved during that time” and looks at the main covenants to answer the question.
Hmmm, now that I think about it, people were always saved by biblical faith. All that people in the Bible that pleased God worshiped Him, had faith in Him, and walked in righteousness.
:thumbsup
mfblume
06-24-2020, 05:38 PM
It's the keynote in the sermon of Peter on the day of Pentecost. And the early church was known for preaching another king, Jesus. And we hardly hear anyone in your camp ever talk about the current kingdom. It's always what is to come. We only hear you acknowledge the current kingdom when discussions like this raise the issue of your silence about it. Then you say, well, it is here, but greater.
I never said it would not become greater in the future, so what's with the accusation that we only tell half the truth. I focus on NOW because it is here now, and we are here now.
You say it will get greater yes but you deny it is yet to come.
If it is here and will get greater, then it is not yet to come. If the weather is cold right now and will get colder, the cold is already here.
I do teach we are at the throne SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING. We are not there LITERALLY. If we were there literally there would be no need for Jesus to come again and receive us to himself.
But oh yea you believe thats already past.
No I do not believe that's already past See? It's always a misapplicaiton and distortion that you attack.
In "preterism" words can never mean what they say. Paul clearly teaches that humans are not in the Kingdom of God in the verses. You teach the Kingdom of God is already come.
Paul DID NOT say that men are not in the kingdom when he said flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom. He said that our bodies in the states they are currently in do not inherit it. Dispies like yourself never understand the phraseology used in the Bible.
FLESH AND BLOOD. Look at all the references used in the bible with that phrase.
If flesh and blood not inheriting the kingdom means MEN are not in the kingdom, then that means men will NEVER be in the kingdom now or future.
You deny the difference between entering "spiritually" and literally. You are the one distorting the truth. You do it by making the spiritual to be literal.
When you say literally, you obviously do not mean literally, because that is not the way that word is supposed to be used. Literally means true to the intent of the literature. YOu must mean PHYSICALLY. But the point is, and Esaias pointed this out you are not following the conversation. IF we are in a spiritually or physically, WE ARE STILL IN IT. You cannot get MORE in the kingdom if you're in it one way or the other.
If the KINGDOM has not yet come, why did Jesus say that when devils are cast out we know that the kingdom is come?
Spiritually or physically makes no difference. The KINGDOM must be in effect if we can be in it spiritually or physically. If we can only be in it now spiritually, then we are still IN IT and it is COME!
Yes he has been ruling since Pentecost. "Spiritually" speaking. He will at HIS COMING defeat all the kingdoms of this world and reign over everything along with his newly immortal saints.
My whole point has been the kingdom is COME! It is not coming. IF we are in it spiritually NOW then it has come!
The Seventh Trumpet Rev. 11:15-18
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
When the KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD BECOME HIS KINGDOM, that is not when His kingdom begins That is not even when it comes! It COMES, as Daniel said, and FILLS THE EARTH. It increases. Of the increase of his government there shall be no end. INCREASE means it is already here. BEFORE it increases to absorb all others, IT WAS STILL HERE.
It has a beginning point. AND IT BEGAN when Jesus sat on the throne 2000 years ago. He is not GOING to sit n the thorne, HE HAS BEEN sitting there.
The Church IS an aspect of the Kingdom. We will become children of God LITERALLY and not just by faith at his appearing and Kingdom. At the resurrection of the dead.
I am as much a child of GOD NOW as I will ever be! I will not become MORE of a child of God later. You are making these things up as you go along. Nobody here believes we are not children of God now. That's as silly as denying new birth. So you are attacking and downplaying new birth. You are downplaying his enthronement. And you do not know how to use the word LITERALLY. Showing you that the Lord and apostles focused on his enthronement more than any other prophecy does not even phase you.
Do you believe that heresy that says, "They'll never crown Jesus til I get there"?
Note the difference in the two truths.
Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
That does not mean we are not actula nd in every way piossible chdlren of God. That means that to become a perfect and complete child of God, IT IS BY FAITH AND NOT WORKS. It's not in faith as though we only have an earnest of our childhood in Christ It means faith as the onlyk means to become a child of God as oppopsed to any other means. You are absolutely mangling scripture!
Luke 20
35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
This is not saying that we are not children of God until the resurrection! You are into some serious heresy right here. To claim that we are not children of God until the resurrection is heresy. That means that we are children of God and proved to be so by the resurrection. Not that we will BECOME children of Gd when we are resurrected.
See? Right now we are the children of God by faith.
But AT THE RESURRECTION we shall be children of God LITERALLY!
Blasphemy and heresy. That is one of the most nonsensical things I have ever read on this forum. Children of God by faith explains how we become children of God, not that we are not actually children, but await the time when we shall become children.
When the last trumpet blows we will be made immortal and become rulers with Christ in his LITERAL REIGN over all of the world. We will LITERALLY be kings and priests as he begins his glorious work of the restoration of all things!
You do not understand what "LITERAL" means. You mean to say "physical". But the KINGDOM IS HERE NOW and we are spiritually ruling and reigning, and ruling and reigning will only grow greater at the resurrection, but never become actual as though the ruling now is not actual. Whether it's spiritual or physical, RULING IS RULING.
What I have read here tells me a lot about your manner of interpreting the bible. It is seriously lacking.
The KINGDOM will not become physical. KINGDOM is a dominion. How is a dominion made phsyical? It can AFFECT the physical but it itself is not physical.
mfblume
06-24-2020, 05:40 PM
Face it, you just cannot follow a conversation.
Nor follow scriptural reading.
Evang.Benincasa
06-24-2020, 07:07 PM
Some will be.
Some will be on trail at a Bet Din and be beaten as we Mark 13:9 is the parallel Luke 21:12. Mike, the beatings are lashes with a whip. You answer with the words some will?? Will the military also use swords to herd Jews into slavery in all the nations of the world? Mike, you can't answer me and discuss this question. Because your doctrine is filled with maybes, and a lot of guesswork.
Evang.Benincasa
06-24-2020, 07:13 PM
Nor follow scriptural reading.
He doesn't care, he doesn't care one bit about what anyone believes. His eschatology consists of two words POST and TRIBULATION. He isn't a Historicist where he would at least have a handle of eschatological hermeneutics. But he is a Christian Zionist where Modern Jews living today are the leverage of his entire doctrine. When Mike stands before the throne of Christ, Jesus will tell him that not one Jew who was living during Mike's lifetime on earth was a Biblical Judian. Mike will then tell Jesus that he is leaving heaven because Jesus is in false doctrine. Mike is totally sealed signed and delivered, he is as done as the dinner dishes.
Michael The Disciple
06-25-2020, 07:58 AM
No I do not believe that's already past See? It's always a misapplicaiton and distortion that you attack.
Distortion?
When I said this:
So it would appear based on the fact you believe Revelation 1-19 has all taken place that these events must have occured in the past, specifically in 70ad.
The marriage of the Lamb. 19:7-9
The coming of Jesus Christ with the armies of Heaven. 19:11
The defeat of the nations and the wrath of God. 19:15
The beast and his prophet were cast into the lake of fire. 19:20
His armies were slain by Jesus Christ. 19:21
You said this in post 82.
Yes.
The going forth of Jesus with armies stands for the gosp[el going out to all the world.
You SEEMED to have confirmed the points I made about the events described in Rev. 19. That would include point 1. The marriage of the Lamb. If the marriage of the lamb is past there would be no future need for Jesus to come and receive us to himself.
So no I never distorted what you affirmed.
Esaias
06-25-2020, 08:12 AM
Just wanted to point out, Jesus announced the Kingdom had arrived, and told His apostles to preach that same truth. Yet, He also taught them to pray "Thy Kingdom come." There is a sense in which it is here, and yet another sense in which it is yet to come. Consider "Thy will be done on earth..." When is God's will NOT done? He is Sovereign God. Yet, in another sense, His will is largely NOT being done on earth because of man's rebellion.
Thus so in one sense the Kingdom has arrived, and in another sense it is still to arrive.
Michael The Disciple
06-25-2020, 08:42 AM
When you say literally, you obviously do not mean literally, because that is not the way that word is supposed to be used. Literally means true to the intent of the literature. YOu must mean PHYSICALLY. But the point is, and Esaias pointed this out you are not following the conversation. IF we are in a spiritually or physically, WE ARE STILL IN IT. You cannot get MORE in the kingdom if you're in it one way or the other.
I meant "literally" or "actually".
You completely ignored the writings of Peter and Paul who wrote we HAVE NOT ENTERED THE KINGDOM.
2 Peter 1:10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Peter says IF we do these things we will be given ENTRANCE......INTO THE KINGDOM.
The people he was writing to were already saved. He was not writing to sinners.
And he wrote to them their ENTERING THE KINGDOM was still in their FUTURE.
2 Tim. 4:1
18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Note what Paul believed. That God would preserve him UNTO.......HIS HEAVENLY KINGDOM.
If he believed he was already in it why was he believing God would preserve him UNTO IT?
So I am not talking about entering a simply "physical" kingdom. We are physical people NOW.
Natural not spiritual. Earthly not heavenly. Terrestrial not celestial.
At the resurrection we shall be CHANGED into spiritual beings not physical beings.
At present we are partakers of the kingdom by our faith. In the FUTURE......at the resurrection we become part of the ruling class of Heaven.
We will then be LITERAL sons and daughters.
Note 2 distinct truths in this chapter.
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
At present we are children only by faith. We have the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION.
This applies to people who have received the "firstfruits" of the Spirit.
Paul goes deeper here.
Romans 8:23-25
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Verse 25 says at PRESENT we are saved by hope. We have the "spirit of adoption". Not the adoption.
On the day of redemption....the resurrection we will receive THE ADOPTION.
That is how Paul can say we are "in the kingdom" in one place and that we are waiting for the kingdom to come in another.
We are saved by faith/hope right now. Yet Jesus said if we endure to THE END......WE SHALL BE SAVED.
As long as we continue in the faith we are saved by faith. And yet when Jesus LITERALLY COMES if we have endured till that time we will BE SAVED.
We will literally be changed from mortal to immortal. From natural to spiritual. From earthly to heavenly.
We will be LITERALLY ADOPTED BY GOD.
Michael The Disciple
06-25-2020, 08:43 AM
Just wanted to point out, Jesus announced the Kingdom had arrived, and told His apostles to preach that same truth. Yet, He also taught them to pray "Thy Kingdom come." There is a sense in which it is here, and yet another sense in which it is yet to come. Consider "Thy will be done on earth..." When is God's will NOT done? He is Sovereign God. Yet, in another sense, His will is largely NOT being done on earth because of man's rebellion.
Thus so in one sense the Kingdom has arrived, and in another sense it is still to arrive.
Exactly what I am saying.:highfive
coksiw
06-25-2020, 09:01 AM
Just wanted to point out, Jesus announced the Kingdom had arrived, and told His apostles to preach that same truth. Yet, He also taught them to pray "Thy Kingdom come." There is a sense in which it is here, and yet another sense in which it is yet to come. Consider "Thy will be done on earth..." When is God's will NOT done? He is Sovereign God. Yet, in another sense, His will is largely NOT being done on earth because of man's rebellion.
Thus so in one sense the Kingdom has arrived, and in another sense it is still to arrive.
Amen!
Michael The Disciple
06-25-2020, 09:11 AM
Paul DID NOT say that men are not in the kingdom when he said flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom. He said that our bodies in the states they are currently in do not inherit it. Dispies like yourself never understand the phraseology used in the Bible.
Heres what Paul said. He said it to saints.
1 Cor. 15:
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
You are making a distinction Paul never made. You say this only refers to human bodies. Paul does not.
Rather in the CONTEXT he says:
WE shall not all sleep. Not OUR BODIES shall not all sleep.
WE shall be changed. Not OUR BODIES shall be changed.
This MORTAL must put on immortality. Not this mortal BODY shall put on immortality.
Our body is part of US. Who WE are. Not an entity unto itself.
WE shall not all sleep.
WE shall all be changed.
WE will become immortal.
Not just our BODIES.
Pauls words speak for themselves. You throw in your own belief that he is ONLY talking about bodies.
mfblume
06-25-2020, 09:14 AM
I do teach we are at the throne SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING. We are not there LITERALLY. If we were there literally there would be no need for Jesus to come again and receive us to himself.
But oh yea you believe thats already past.
No I do not believe that's already past See? It's always a misapplicaiton and distortion that you attack.
Distortion?
When I said this:
So it would appear based on the fact you believe Revelation 1-19 has all taken place that these events must have occured in the past, specifically in 70ad.
The marriage of the Lamb. 19:7-9
The coming of Jesus Christ with the armies of Heaven. 19:11
The defeat of the nations and the wrath of God. 19:15
The beast and his prophet were cast into the lake of fire. 19:20
His armies were slain by Jesus Christ. 19:21
You said this in post 82.
You SEEMED to have confirmed the points I made about the events described in Rev. 19. That would include point 1. The marriage of the Lamb. If the marriage of the lamb is past there would be no future need for Jesus to come and receive us to himself.
So no I never distorted what you affirmed.
Yes, you did. Unbelievable. I distinctly say something about what I believe and you insist I do not believe it. You noted the COMING OF JESUS. Jesus came in localized judgment in AD70, but THAT IS NOT what I believe Rev 19 is talking about. Inasfar as the COMING OF JESUS is concerned, you have seen me say this again and again... HIS SECOND COMING IS FUTURE. AND THAT is the coming that takes us in the resurrection. AND THAT is what you were implying about your reference to the COMING OF JESUS.
What we are seeing here is that you cannot debate a person without making up a belief the person you discuss with does not believe, especially after I CLARIFY my belief and you continue with the misrepresentation.
Your error is in thinking the COMING OF JESUS in resurrection power is what Rev 19 is speaking about, and I do not believe that. I do not believe the second coming to receive us to himself was AD70.
Michael The Disciple
06-25-2020, 11:20 AM
Yes, you did. Unbelievable. I distinctly say something about what I believe and you insist I do not believe it. You noted the COMING OF JESUS. Jesus came in localized judgment in AD70, but THAT IS NOT what I believe Rev 19 is talking about. Inasfar as the COMING OF JESUS is concerned, you have seen me say this again and again... HIS SECOND COMING IS FUTURE. AND THAT is the coming that takes us in the resurrection. AND THAT is what you were implying about your reference to the COMING OF JESUS.
The context was I mistakenly said you believed Revelation was fulfilled through chapter 18. You said that was not true I apologized. You said you believed Revelation was fulfilled THROUGH CHAPTER 19.
I then showed five points of things that are written in chapter 19, which you said already happened. I pointed out specific verses IN THE CHAPTER.
You are the one who said Rev. 1-19 is in the past or "fulfilled".
If you INTERPRET the verses to mean other than what they are saying that is your confusion, not mine.
Again here are the things I posted in Rev. 19.....which you said has already been fulfilled.
The marriage of the Lamb. 19:7-9
The coming of Jesus Christ with the armies of Heaven. 19:11
The defeat of the nations and the wrath of God. 19:15
The beast and his prophet were cast into the lake of fire. 19:20
His armies were slain by Jesus Christ. 19:21
If you spiritualize them away its not my fault. I simply quoted verses. I could understand tho one would want to distance themselves from such beliefs.
Your error is in thinking the COMING OF JESUS in resurrection power is what Rev 19 is speaking about, and I do not believe that. I do not believe the second coming to receive us to himself was AD70.
I thought you were a PARTIAL PRET but perhaps you can understand why it seems confusing when one says ALL REVELATION 19 has been fulfilled.
Michael The Disciple
06-25-2020, 11:26 AM
What we are seeing here is that you cannot debate a person without making up a belief the person you discuss with does not believe, especially after I CLARIFY my belief and you continue with the misrepresentation.
First off I never signed on for the debate. I had started a thread about what happened in Seattle. You came in and took it over. To discuss what?
Big surprise! How ridiculous it is to have beliefs of things that are in the FUTURE!
You "clarified" your beliefs by stating all the book of Revelation has been fulfilled through from chapter one through 19. I was simply believing what you said.
Michael The Disciple
06-25-2020, 12:57 PM
Your error is in thinking the COMING OF JESUS in resurrection power is what Rev 19 is speaking about, and I do not believe that. I do not believe the second coming to receive us to himself was AD70.
Ok then WHERE in the book of Revelation would you pinpoint his coming in resurrection power, which I assume you mean when he will resurrect the dead saints of God and "catch up" the living?
Evang.Benincasa
06-27-2020, 05:52 AM
Mike, you are religious joke.
mfblume
07-01-2020, 10:07 AM
Ok then WHERE in the book of Revelation would you pinpoint his coming in resurrection power, which I assume you mean when he will resurrect the dead saints of God and "catch up" the living?
It's at the white throne judgment in Rev 20 after the devil is loosed for a season and fire falls. This is because the second resurrection is implied in reference to the first, with the first not being physical resurrection, while the second is.
mfblume
07-01-2020, 10:08 AM
First off I never signed on for the debate. I had started a thread about what happened in Seattle. You came in and took it over. To discuss what?
Big surprise! How ridiculous it is to have beliefs of things that are in the FUTURE!
You "clarified" your beliefs by stating all the book of Revelation has been fulfilled through from chapter one through 19. I was simply believing what you said.
You need to let us explain things about our beliefs instead of assuming them when you have little awareness of our beliefs.
mfblume
07-01-2020, 10:10 AM
The context was I mistakenly said you believed Revelation was fulfilled through chapter 18. You said that was not true I apologized. You said you believed Revelation was fulfilled THROUGH CHAPTER 19.
I then showed five points of things that are written in chapter 19, which you said already happened. I pointed out specific verses IN THE CHAPTER.
You are the one who said Rev. 1-19 is in the past or "fulfilled".
If you INTERPRET the verses to mean other than what they are saying that is your confusion, not mine.
Again here are the things I posted in Rev. 19.....which you said has already been fulfilled.
The marriage of the Lamb. 19:7-9
The coming of Jesus Christ with the armies of Heaven. 19:11
The defeat of the nations and the wrath of God. 19:15
The beast and his prophet were cast into the lake of fire. 19:20
His armies were slain by Jesus Christ. 19:21
If you spiritualize them away its not my fault. I simply quoted verses. I could understand tho one would want to distance themselves from such beliefs.
I thought you were a PARTIAL PRET but perhaps you can understand why it seems confusing when one says ALL REVELATION 19 has been fulfilled.
All of Rev 19 is fulfilled. But you are mistaking the vision in Rev 19 in my view to be the second coiming, and I said it is not. Simple. And I already explained this. Move on.
mfblume
07-01-2020, 10:11 AM
Heres what Paul said. He said it to saints.
1 Cor. 15:
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
You are making a distinction Paul never made. You say this only refers to human bodies. Paul does not.
Rather in the CONTEXT he says:
WE shall not all sleep. Not OUR BODIES shall not all sleep.
WE shall be changed. Not OUR BODIES shall be changed.
This MORTAL must put on immortality. Not this mortal BODY shall put on immortality.
Our body is part of US. Who WE are. Not an entity unto itself.
WE shall not all sleep.
WE shall all be changed.
WE will become immortal.
Not just our BODIES.
Pauls words speak for themselves. You throw in your own belief that he is ONLY talking about bodies.
It is all about BODIES. The entire chapter is a BODY discussion as to what kind of BODIES will we have in teh resurrection. PAUL SAID HE IS ONLYK TALKING ABOUT BODIES.
"WITH WHAT BODY DO THEY COME?"
mfblume
07-01-2020, 10:15 AM
Just wanted to point out, Jesus announced the Kingdom had arrived, and told His apostles to preach that same truth. Yet, He also taught them to pray "Thy Kingdom come." There is a sense in which it is here, and yet another sense in which it is yet to come. Consider "Thy will be done on earth..." When is God's will NOT done? He is Sovereign God. Yet, in another sense, His will is largely NOT being done on earth because of man's rebellion.
Thus so in one sense the Kingdom has arrived, and in another sense it is still to arrive.
It is arrived and yet to arrive in the sense that his will is not being done in SOME places and some things are not yet beneath his feet, but is in others. And it is progressively filling the earth. the stone that struck the image's feet in Daniel 2 already took place long ago. The tone grew into a mountain, and that growing means it is here and has arrived in initial form and, seeing as it is spreading, it is coming to ithers areas that it has not yet spread to.
mfblume
07-01-2020, 11:01 AM
I meant "literally" or "actually".
For the record, literally means true to the intent of the literature. So, if the literature intends us to see SYMBOLISM in the text, then taking the text literally means that it is symbolic.
Anyway...
would imply that You completely ignored the writings of Peter and Paul who wrote we HAVE NOT ENTERED THE KINGDOM.
2 Peter 1:10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
We would not be born again if we were not in the kingdom. But there are progressive aspects to the kingdom.
Jesus said the kingdom was AT HAND 2000 years ago. Do you believe in Kingdom postponement?
When we speak of entrance into the kingdom, I believe it's saying the same thing that 1 Cor 15 is talking about. The bodies of our beings are not conducive to the Kingdom. Right now, our spirits and souls alone are involved in kingdom life. For that reason, it is a spiritual influence we have over our own spirits the spirit of the world and demonic spirits including satan. That means we may be killed in some instances and not in others.
But we are in the kingdom of His dear Son NOW! And this is the intent on Paul's words about the Kingdom being righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Colossians 1:13.. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
But entering the kingdom is another slant on the concept. Jesus also said not all who say "Lord, Lord" will enter into the Kingdom.
We are under the GOVERNMENT OF JESUS.
Are we not?
Bodies are the issue in 1 Cor 15. The current fragile and mortal state of our bodies are not suited to what the Kingdom has in store for us materially. That does not mean we are not in the KINGDOM already in spirit and soul, though. We cannot ENTER KINGDOM without being born of WATER AND SPIRIT.
John 3:5.. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
But that sense of entrance is not the sense of entrance in 1 Cor 15 is. And because 1 Cor 15 is speaking about what happens when all enemies are under Christ's feet death being the last, it is speaking about eternity future. And THAT eternity future existence requires bodies that are immortal. So, because these mortal bodies are not fit for the eternal kingdom in the future following the resurrection, they require a change.
Peter says IF we do these things we will be given ENTRANCE......INTO THE KINGDOM.
The future resurrection entrance.
The people he was writing to were already saved. He was not writing to sinners.
And so were these people:
John 3:5.. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Colossians 1:13.. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
And he wrote to them their ENTERING THE KINGDOM was still in their FUTURE.
2 Tim. 4:1
18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
And yet we are already in the kingdom here:
Colossians 1:13.. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
You discount the already aspect, while I account both already and yet to come. But your insistence on future alone is NOT what the Lord and apostles emphasized. Again, they quoted Psalm 110:1 more than any other OT prophecy because they focused on the CURRENT KINGDOM aspect, not the future. ANd VERY FEW believers focus on the current aspect of the Kingdom as they did. This current kingdom aspect NEDS TO BE STRESSED in the same way the early church stressed it. But you hardly hear any mention of Psalm 110 in reference to that!
Some people are so blinded to this that they twist the simple words of Psalm 110:1 from sitting UNTIL all enemies are under his feet to sitting AFTER all enemies are under his feet. That sitting is on the throne! And He is there now. And then this nonsensical concept of not yet sitting on the throne of David is proposed, which is a dispensational abhorrence!
Note what Paul believed. That God would preserve him UNTO.......HIS HEAVENLY KINGDOM.
If he believed he was already in it why was he believing God would preserve him UNTO IT?
Because the kingdom shows progressive aspects to it.
Colossians 1:13.. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Now, you explain to me why Paul said we are translated into the kingdom wif we are not yet in it.
So I am not talking about entering a simply "physical" kingdom. We are physical people NOW.
Natural not spiritual. Earthly not heavenly. Terrestrial not celestial.
Natural bodies are what we have now, unlike Christ's supernatural (spiritual) body that he obtained in his resurrection. And the bodies will be changed so that their part in the Kingdom will be fulfilled, seeing as they are not yet involved in the kingdom as our souls and spirits are.
MTD, Jesus specified that the part of us that is born again IS NOT OUR BODIES, but our SPIRITS. John 3. And that's who how Paul can say we are already translated into the Kingdom, and how He can refer to our bodies in THE bodily resurrection chapter of 1 Cor 15 and say they are not yet int he kingdom.
The resurrection marks the all-important point in which we who are ALREADY io the kingdom in spirit will see our whole spirit, soul and body aspect be involved as well. And THAT is the concept that all your references point to, while you have totally not realized that other references I have pointed out indicate a SPIRIT involvement of the Kingdom now. And the worst shame of it all is that you do not focus on Psalm 110:1 as the early Church and Jesus did.
At the resurrection we shall be CHANGED into spiritual beings not physical beings.[
WOW! You made the same mistake Loren made in thinking PHYSICAL is contrasted with SPIRITUAL. So, do you, also, believe that the resurrection will not see PHYSICAL NATURAL BODIES changed into spiritual SPIRITUAL BODIES?
continued...
mfblume
07-01-2020, 11:04 AM
LAt present we are partakers of the kingdom by our faith.
You have a completely incorrect concept of what "by faith" means. By faith is contrasted with BY WORKS, not with BY REALITY.
And we HAVE BEEN TRANSLATED INTO THE KINGDOM of Jesus -- a context you do not realize even exists in scripture You only focus on the passages that refer tot he completeness and wholeness of our beings in the kingdom, but totally are unaware of the current existence in the Kingdom in spirit and soul.
Jesus is both priest and king in his kingdom. We read in Zechariah that he would be priest while on his throne. We know he is high priest now. So, he must be on his throne. And Psalm 110:1 is speaking about that enthronement that happened 2000 years ago. And you done missed it!
Until all believers realize that Psalm 110:1 is fulfilled already, this confusion of Disp teaching will carry on, sadly.
In the FUTURE......at the resurrection we become part of the ruling class of Heaven.
We will then be LITERAL sons and daughters.
Literal. lol
Wrong We are NOW the sons of God.
The sense of 1 John 3 is missing from your entire concept.
1 John 3:2.. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
We are sons NOW. Not in a hopeful sense. We ARE. And this verse noted that our existence AS SONS will progress toward the physical aspect inheriting what our souls and spirits already enjoy.
1 John 5:1.. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Romans 8:14-15.. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ..(15).. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Romans 8:17.. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
We are CHILDREN NOW. And that means we are HEIRS. You are confusing the INHERITANCE for the children with the STANDING AS CHILDREN. YOU think that what Paul said is our inheritance is our actual childhood, when in reality the childhood is ours in the most actual way possible already, but we shall INHERIT things in the future because of our CURRENT CHILDHOOD.
And no reasonable dispie believes that we are NOT CHILDREN now like you do. Your belief is an anomaly, and NOT the norm among those who hold your view of prophecy.
Say it with me, "NOW ARE WE THE SONS OF GOD...."
We are sons ACTUALLY right now.
Note 2 distinct truths in this chapter.
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
At present we are children only by faith. We have the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION.
You are as wrong about what that means as can be.
BY FAITH does not mean not actually. It DOES NOT mean BY EARNEST.
Come on, dispensationalists. Someone please correct your fellow adherent and show him that we are as much children of God as can possibly be right now, and that "by faith" does NOT MEAN "not actually."
Brother, you are in heresy with this non-actual sonship.
This applies to people who have received the "firstfruits" of the Spirit.
Paul goes deeper here.
Romans 8:23-25
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Verse 25 says at PRESENT we are saved by hope. We have the "spirit of adoption". Not the adoption.
That is more heresy!
The spirit of adoption means we are adopted! By faith means we did not work for it, but it was GRANTED to us. You have a completely heretical view of what "by faith" means.
You came short of the all-important verse!
Romans 8:15-16.. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. ..(16).. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
That is what spirit of adoption means! Something BEARS WITNESS that we ARE -- not GOING TO BE -- children of God.
Wow. It says right there that we are actually the children and the spirit of adoption proves it, and you think spirit of adoption means non-actuality of adoption- -- the EXACT opposite of what Paul meant!
They that are led by the spirit are NOT ACTUALLY SONS OF GOD?
Romans 8:14.. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Paul ACTUALLY meant (if we want to talk about ACTUALLY) that the SPIRIT actually adopted us and we are actual sons of God. We were adopted BY THE SPIRIT. That's what it means to have the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION It does not mean we are adopted in earnest, but that we are adopted in every sense of the term, and it was accomplished by the HOLY GHOST!
This is far more serious than your dispie error. You are now touching on flat-out heresy of maligning new birth! NO ONE who is a serious disp believes we are not actually children of God, nor do any of them interpret these verses you are quoting to mean anything remotely similar to what you are proposing. You need to stay away from teaching in any form due to this sort of maligning of scripture! This is unbelievable!
On the day of redemption....the resurrection we will receive THE ADOPTION.NO. OUR BODIES alone with be finally in synch with the states of our spirit and souls in the resurrection. It is REDEMPTION of the body, not ADOPTION of the body.
That is how Paul can say we are "in the kingdom" in one place and that we are waiting for the kingdom to come in another.
It is absolutely NOT what Paul meant.
We are saved by faith/hope right now. Yet Jesus said if we endure to THE END......WE SHALL BE SAVED.
More heresy!
Saved by FAITH means that we are not saved by WORKS. You must be legalistic in many ways for you to miss that meaning in scripture.
As long as we continue in the faith we are saved by faith. And yet when Jesus LITERALLY COMES if we have endured till that time we will BE SAVED.
We will literally be changed from mortal to immortal. From natural to spiritual. From earthly to heavenly.
We will be LITERALLY ADOPTED BY GOD.
I am ACTUALLY adopted by God ever since the day I was BORN (hint hint) again!
Heresy alert, folks!
Heresy alert!!!!
Michael The Disciple
07-02-2020, 01:09 PM
It is all about BODIES. The entire chapter is a BODY discussion as to what kind of BODIES will we have in teh resurrection. PAUL SAID HE IS ONLYK TALKING ABOUT BODIES.
"WITH WHAT BODY DO THEY COME?"
Who is THE DEAD he is talking about? Just bodies?
1 Cor. 15:35
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Paul is writing about dead persons. He asks with what BODY do THEY.......come.
You insert your doctrine into the text as if it were there.
You would have it read as such.
vs 35
35But some man will say, How are the dead BODIES raised up? and with what body do they come?
By inserting the thought or "concept" that the resurrection of the dead is merely concerning "bodies" immortal soul heresy succeeds in pulling the wool over the eyes of the unlearned.
Michael The Disciple
07-02-2020, 01:17 PM
Come on, dispensationalists. Someone please correct your fellow adherent and show him that we are as much children of God as can possibly be right now, and that "by faith" does NOT MEAN "not actually."
You do exactly what you accuse me of doing to you. When did I say I was a "dispensationalist? What I say is I believe in the POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE.
Michael The Disciple
07-02-2020, 02:59 PM
When we speak of entrance into the kingdom, I believe it's saying the same thing that 1 Cor 15 is talking about. The bodies of our beings are not conducive to the Kingdom. Right now, our spirits and souls alone are involved in kingdom life. For that reason, it is a spiritual influence we have over our own spirits the spirit of the world and demonic spirits including satan. That means we may be killed in some instances and not in others.
The body is not involved in kingdom life NOW?
Rom. 12:1
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Our bodies must be acceptable to God...now.
1 Thess. 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The body must be preserved blameless NOW the same as the spirit and soul.
Note what you said.
For that reason, it is a spiritual influence we have over our own spirits the spirit of the world and demonic spirits including satan.
It works the same way with the body NOW. We who have the Holy Spirit INFLUENCE the conduct of our body NOW.
Rom. 8:13
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Paul taught the body is involved in the kingdom right now the same as the Spirit. If the deeds of the BODY are mortified (killed) we will live. If we live after the flesh (deeds of the body) we will die.
In other words "not enter into the kingdom of God".
So our walk or life in the kingdom right now INCLUDES the whole person.
And it is walked out ENTIRELY BY FAITH at the present time.
Romans 15:13
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
So the "stage" or "phase" of the Kingdon NOW is as written is the "earnest" stage.
It is lived IN HOPE AND FAITH. What is the HOPE AND FAITH?
Is it not in the actual coming of Jesus Christ and entering his heavenly kingdom?
2 Tim. 4:1
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
After then it wont be just hope or faith anymore but the ACTUAL, LITERAL Kingdom.
Michael The Disciple
07-02-2020, 05:51 PM
All of Rev 19 is fulfilled. But you are mistaking the vision in Rev 19 in my view to be the second coiming, and I said it is not. Simple. And I already explained this. Move on.
Just because YOU believe Rev. 19 to not be the 2nd coming does not make it so. I am the one mistaken?
It is written:
Rev. 19:11-16
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
I will take it for what it says.
You said:
Yes.
The going forth of Jesus with armies stands for the gosp[el going out to all the world.
Looks to me like you are the one mistaken. Reducing the most glorious event in history to us preaching the word.
Move on? Ok. Everyone can see the difference in our understanding.
Nicodemus1968
07-02-2020, 06:17 PM
Just because YOU believe Rev. 19 to not be the 2nd coming does not make it so. I am the one mistaken?
It is written:
Rev. 19:11-16
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
I will take it for what it says.
You said:
Looks to me like you are the one mistaken. Reducing the most glorious event in history to us preaching the word.
Move on? Ok. Everyone can see the difference in our understanding.
Obviously many here believe in the last days. Yet, what about the last days of America? We talk and discuss about the last days of the church, yet what if God is getting this nation ready to shut it down. What if the USA is to become a communist nation? What if thats the will of God, and the church stays?
Michael The Disciple
07-02-2020, 09:14 PM
The resurrection marks the all-important point in which we who are ALREADY io the kingdom in spirit will see our whole spirit, soul and body aspect be involved as well. And THAT is the concept that all your references point to, while you have totally not realized that other references I have pointed out indicate a SPIRIT involvement of the Kingdom now.
I have ALWAYS taught we are in the kingdom now as you put it "in Spirit". To me thats the "earnest" of the Spirit Paul wrote of.
Then you also say I have not totally realized there is a Spirit involvement in the Kingdom now.
Again something I have never taught or believed. I have always believed in the two aspects or phases of the Kingdom. The initial which is receiving the Holy Ghost as the earnest of the full inheritance. Living by the faith of Jesus. Doing his will.The second or final phase is at the resurrection when we actually gain immortality, eternal life. Then we enter the fullness of the Kingdom.
Michael The Disciple
07-03-2020, 05:04 PM
Obviously many here believe in the last days. Yet, what about the last days of America? We talk and discuss about the last days of the church, yet what if God is getting this nation ready to shut it down. What if the USA is to become a communist nation? What if thats the will of God, and the church stays?
Good topic for a new thread. Go for it.
Esaias
07-03-2020, 10:40 PM
Obviously many here believe in the last days. Yet, what about the last days of America? We talk and discuss about the last days of the church, yet what if God is getting this nation ready to shut it down. What if the USA is to become a communist nation? What if thats the will of God, and the church stays?
Were those Europeans and Asians who resisted communism in their countries wrong or right for resisting?
Just wondering what your stance is on that.
Nicodemus1968
07-04-2020, 12:14 PM
Were those Europeans and Asians who resisted communism in their countries wrong or right for resisting?
Just wondering what your stance is on that.
If this country falls into complete communism, I will not be in favor of it, for one thing. I will also not conform to it.
I believe we can both agree on that, were we differ is how we resist.
When we go to the word, and we look at the examples of resistance in the Bible we see one thing in common, they relied on God for their salvation.
I read comments on here and see the news, I see how others view resistance. Resistance in the Bible isn’t the resistance of today. Daniel submitted to the king to be thrown into the den of lions, the 3 Hebrew children submitted to be tossed into the furnace, Moses submitted to the voice of Pharaoh until he said they could leave. Did they obey the king and disobey God, No, not at all. Yet, they didn’t rely on their spirit to give them deliverance, they waited on God, their salvation. We as the church do not match with what they bring against us, we wait on God. Do we submit to the worldly government and disobey God, no we dont.
mfblume
07-08-2020, 11:03 AM
I have ALWAYS taught we are in the kingdom now as you put it "in Spirit". To me thats the "earnest" of the Spirit Paul wrote of.
Then you also say I have not totally realized there is a Spirit involvement in the Kingdom now.
Again something I have never taught or believed. I have always believed in the two aspects or phases of the Kingdom. The initial which is receiving the Holy Ghost as the earnest of the full inheritance. Living by the faith of Jesus. Doing his will.The second or final phase is at the resurrection when we actually gain immortality, eternal life. Then we enter the fullness of the Kingdom.
You think in spirit is not actual, when it is, though.
mfblume
07-08-2020, 11:10 AM
Just because YOU believe Rev. 19 to not be the 2nd coming does not make it so. I am the one mistaken?
You obvioulsy are not used to a well-rounded discussion. YOU are assuming the Rev 19 scene is the second coming. DOES THAT MAKE IT SO? I can say the same thing to you that you say to me. You are being circular in your arguments. You believe Rev 19 is the second coming ebcuase you believe it is the second coming. So, when I disagree, you say I am not right just because I said I am right. However, you did the VERY THING when you assumed it IS the second coming.
Rev. 19:11-16
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
I will take it for what it says.
Saying that you are taking it for what it says is a cop-out and proves nothing. Trinitarians read about Father, Son and Holy Ghost because they say they take it for what it says. But YOU DO NOT REALIZE that when you read Rev 19, you read it through a filter that the bible did not implaNT IN YOUR MIND. You INTERPRET it to mean the second coming. It does not say SECOND COMING anywhere in that chapter. So, why do you think it is? You think it is because you say it is. No grounds for that thought, though.
Those who know how to discuss don't say that kind of thing that you are saying, because they know that accusing someone of being wrong because they do not read it the way it is is nonsense. Revelation is SYMBOLIC. Do you read Jesus being a lamb with 7 eyes and horns the way it is written? By taking it for what it says means that you do not think it is symbolic at all. So, you must actually believe Jesus is a lamb now that he is in heaven, and has 7 eyes and horns to boot! Take it for what is says, you claim! YOU ARE NOT CONSISTENT. It's more complicated than simply saying to take it for what it says. IS IT SYMBOLIC or not?
You said:
Looks to me like you are the one mistaken. Reducing the most glorious event in history to us preaching the word.
Who said Rev 19 is what YOU claim it is for you to make this claim?
Move on? Ok. Everyone can see the difference in our understanding.
I think everyone can see your circular basis of argument.
mfblume
07-08-2020, 11:25 AM
When we speak of entrance into the kingdom, I believe it's saying the same thing that 1 Cor 15 is talking about. The bodies of our beings are not conducive to the Kingdom.The body is not involved in kingdom life NOW?
I never said that at all. I said they are not conducive to the kingdom. Why did Paul say HE KEEPS HIS BODY UNDER?
Rom. 12:1
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Our bodies must be acceptable to God...now.
Yes, BY SACRIFICE. SACRIFICE means we DENY the body. But what Paul said in 1 Cor 15 is that when the resurrection occurs WE WILL NOT KEEP OUR BODIES UNDER OR BE LIVING SACRIFICES. Sacrifices are things we really want, but let go. That will not be the case after resurrection.
Your very references prove my point!
They are only acceptable when living a life of SACRIFICE... DENIAL. Sin is in our bodies now. They will not contain sin after the resurrection. No more keeping them under. No more sacrifice.
Our bodies will be made IMMORTAL because they must be so in order to fully be involved in what God has for us physically in eternity future. If our bodies were thrust into what God has planned orf us in eternity future, we would PERISH instantly! SO, they need to be made immortal.
1 Thess. 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen! AND THAT MEANS DENIAL of the flesh. Do you think we have no need to deny the flesh now? Do you realize that denial of the flesh is required because SIN is in our flesh and will control us if we do not deny the flesh it's contained in?
The body must be preserved blameless NOW the same as the spirit and soul.[/qote]
Exactly! That is because they are not in a state of being that DOES NOT REQUIRE EFFORT to keep them in denial of lusts and to render them blameless. THe resurrection automatically makes our bodies blameless. But WE HAVE TO PUT FORTH AN EFFORT for them to be blameless now.
[quote]
Note what you said.
For that reason, it is a spiritual influence we have over our own spirits the spirit of the world and demonic spirits including satan.
It works the same way with the body NOW. We who have the Holy Spirit INFLUENCE the conduct of our body NOW.
Rom. 8:13
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Paul taught the body is involved in the kingdom right now the same as the Spirit. If the deeds of the BODY are mortified (killed) we will live. If we live after the flesh (deeds of the body) we will die.
In other words "not enter into the kingdom of God".
So our walk or life in the kingdom right now INCLUDES the whole person.
Of course it includes the whole person. But you totally missed what I meant. I meantthat flesh and body must be denied and disciplined, which will nto be required in an immortal sinless body.
And it is walked out ENTIRELY BY FAITH at the present time./quote]
And you completely misunderstand what BY FAITH means. BY FIATH does not mean NOT ACTUALLY. It means NOT OF WORKS. Your version of BY FAITH is legalistic.
[quote]
Romans 15:13
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
So the "stage" or "phase" of the Kingdon NOW is as written is the "earnest" stage.
It is lived IN HOPE AND FAITH. What is the HOPE AND FAITH?
Is it not in the actual coming of Jesus Christ and entering his heavenly kingdom?
FAITH AND HOPE here do not mean what you think. The future phase of the kingdom is indeed greater, and I never said it was not. But you think it is not even here now because you think it is not actual. You think everything about kingdom now is not in reality. The kingdom is REAL right now. IT IS ACTUAL.
2 Tim. 4:1
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
After then it wont be just hope or faith anymore but the ACTUAL, LITERAL Kingdom.
There it is again! You said you agree we are in the kingdom in SPIRIT, but then you contradict yourself by saying it is not ACTUALLY HERE NOW. How can we be in it iin SPIRIT if it is not actual riught now? We Hope for the greater phase of the kingdom, not for the actualilty of the kingdom as though it is not actual now. If it was not actual now, then we could not be in it in spirit.
Your problem is that you do not even understand the definition of words. You completely blaspheme the meaning of BY FAITH to mean NOT ACTUAL, when by faith means NOT OF WORKS. And that's only the tip of the iceberg of your misunderstanding of terms used in scripture. You also do not understand the kingdom is actually here but only our spirits are involved now, while our bodies must be denied their lusts and disciplined, which will not be the case after the resurrection.
Try again.
Michael The Disciple
07-08-2020, 04:03 PM
You obvioulsy are not used to a well-rounded discussion.
What discussion? What do the things you are saying have to do with the discussion of FREE SEATTLE?
The topic of this thread?
Then again Paul said to reject a heretic after the first and second admonition. The heretic after rejecting the truth will always want to keep an argument going.
You said all of Revelation 19 is fulfilled. Your preterist friends will agree with you. I and most other Apostolics believe it to be future.
Nicodemus1968
07-08-2020, 04:27 PM
What discussion? What do the things you are saying have to do with the discussion of FREE SEATTLE?
The topic of this thread?
Then again Paul said to reject a heretic after the first and second admonition. The heretic after rejecting the truth will always want to keep an argument going.
You said all of Revelation 19 is fulfilled. Your preterist friends will agree with you. I and most other Apostolics believe it to be future.
I and most other Apostolics believe it to be future
Not trying to get into Bro. Blames and your discussion.
However, just remember many apostolics/ UPC and other denominations had to change their stance from time to time. Because the “who” and “what”, “this” or “that” in Revelation didn’t pan out. Their doctrine is like shifting sands.
Michael The Disciple
07-08-2020, 06:18 PM
I and most other Apostolics believe it to be future
Not trying to get into Bro. Blames and your discussion.
However, just remember many apostolics/ UPC and other denominations had to change their stance from time to time. Because the “who” and “what”, “this” or “that” in Revelation didn’t pan out. Their doctrine is like shifting sands.
I was just pointing out to Mike that most Apostolics like myself have heard the total "spiritualizing" of Revelation and are not biting. Sure there are plenty of symbols in Revelation but if you symbolize far enough you can do away with the Christian faith entirely.
But as to changing I have changed my beliefs probably more than anyone here. If I was proven wrong by the word I had to change. I see very few changing their beliefs in Apostolic circles. Sadly the only things that seem to change are dress codes and even then rarely.
My approach to end times is that I dont understand every detail as the preterists demand. But the high points are the high points.
The coming of Jesus is a long way from believing that his coming with the armies of heaven to destroy the beast, false prophet, all the armies of the world and marry a bride means that you and I preach the word.
Evang.Benincasa
07-13-2020, 09:47 PM
I and most other Apostolics believe it to be future
Not trying to get into Bro. Blames and your discussion.
However, just remember many apostolics/ UPC and other denominations had to change their stance from time to time. Because the “who” and “what”, “this” or “that” in Revelation didn’t pan out. Their doctrine is like shifting sands.
Bro, Eschatology (as well as many other items) in the "Apostolic" ranks is a total hodgepodge of ideas and hypothesis. Yet, I am experiencing a time where Pentecostals not only don't believe in spiritual things, but divine healing or protection. A well known local UPCI church here in Fort Lauderdale just found out one of their saints has the COVID. So, what did they do? They sent everyone home for two weeks, locked their doors, and resumed live streaming...again. Free Seattle? What eschatology is right? My lands, these people can't even run with the footmen, God help them when they have to deal with the horsemen. This whole COVID thing was the tide going out for Pentecost (really all Christendom) the tide has gone out and they have been all swimming naked. :lol
Resume the debate.
Maybe you all can help Mike find Satan's space ship
Evang.Benincasa
07-13-2020, 09:49 PM
Oh, and who is Brother Blames? :heeheehee
Nicodemus1968
07-14-2020, 10:39 AM
Oh, and who is Brother Blames? :heeheehee
Lol!
I read your post and I’m like what is he talking about? Then I read my post, oops. No offense to Bro. Blume, or Bro. Blames if there is one.
Esaias
07-14-2020, 11:53 AM
But as to changing I have changed my beliefs probably more than anyone here. If I was proven wrong by the word I had to change. I see very few changing their beliefs in Apostolic circles. Sadly the only things that seem to change are dress codes and even then rarely.
Did you change your belief when you were shown that the Logos was uncreated?
Evang.Benincasa
07-14-2020, 05:58 PM
Did you change your belief when you were shown that the Logos was uncreated?
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThoroughCleanAtlanticspadefish-max-1mb.gif
Evang.Benincasa
07-14-2020, 06:06 PM
But as to changing I have changed my beliefs probably more than anyone here. If I was proven wrong by the word I had to change. I see very few changing their beliefs in Apostolic circles. Sadly the only things that seem to change are dress codes and even then rarely.
That's because you are perfect. Since you are perfect, then there is no falsehood in you. You are even greater than John the Baptist since he had his doubts. You? Not a chance, because you are perfect, and there is no shadow of turning in you. I've come to the reality that holding court with you on the internet is a futile endeavor. You would have to be dealt with face to face. For anything worthwhile to come from it. I also do my best work in person, far from the constraints of the internet. with its pauses, and its ghosting.
Jito463
07-15-2020, 10:43 PM
But as to changing I have changed my beliefs probably more than anyone here. If I was proven wrong by the word I had to change. I see very few changing their beliefs in Apostolic circles. Sadly the only things that seem to change are dress codes and even then rarely.
That's.....not a good thing. If you have to constantly alter your beliefs because the Word proves you wrong, then perhaps you're getting your beliefs from the wrong source. Food for thought.
vBulletin® v3.8.5, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.