Covenant Apostolic Congrgations Intl

[Amanah]

There is a church from this org near me that I am going to visit.

About The CACI

Covenant Apostolics are Spirit-Filled, Acts 2:38 believers who observe the 7th Day Sabbath and celebrate the great festivals found in the scriptures. We are linked through a rapidly expanding network of congregations, bible study groups, and ministers.

The twentieth century brought great light back into Christianity. Several scripturally focused movements began to resist the pagan influences of Rome. Among these are millions who have discovered the true 7th Day Sabbath, rejected the deeply pagan celebrations of Christmas and Easter (Solstice & Equinox), and reestablished the New Covenant practice of observing biblical feast days "regarding them unto the Lord".

Add to that the Pentecostal/Apostolic Faith movement restoring Spiritual gifts, exuberant lively worship, Water Baptism in the NAME, and the “One God” message. What has emerged is a vibrant, Spirit-filled group of believers who are passionately connected to the Messiah and boldly living out the culture of His coming Kingdom! Our passion is to experience and share the Authentic Gospel of the Kingdom around the world.

https://caci.webs.com/about-us

[Amanah]

The message of the CACI is the hope and promise of the Eternal Kingdom of Messiah. It is expressed throughout the scriptures in these four components...

1) THE COMING KINGDOM OF JESUS CHRIST

Religion presents a mythical Jesus who is returning to end the world, take Christians to heaven, and punish everyone else in hell for all eternity. This is not the Messiah of scripture.

The CACI presents the scriptural Messiah who is our coming King who will restore all things, regenerate the Earth, remove the wicked, establish His Eternal Kingdom in the Earth, and reign with His elect as Kings and Priests.

2) THE LAW OF THE KINGDOM

Religion presents Jesus as a Lawless King. They boldly declare that His work was to destroy the Law and set Christians free from obeying God's Commandments including His 7th Day Sabbath.

The CACI presents a scriptural Messiah who is the "Law Giver", who establishes the New Covenant as the Law written in our hearts, and at His return will send forth the Law from Zion, . The 10 Commandments (including the 7th Day Sabbath) are the great and unchanging constitution upon which both the Old and New Covenants are founded.

3) THE CULTURE OF THE KINGDOM

Religion presents the Pagan cultures of Rome and ancient Babylon repackaged as Christianity. Their annual celebrations can not be found in scripture and were never celebrated by any Apostle or Believer in the first century.

The CACI presents the culture of the Kingdom as instructed by scripture. Our celebrations are the beautiful Festivals given by God in scripture and celebrated by the Apostles deep into the New Testament era. These are not a matter of Law, but rather a matter of Instruction, illuminating the culture that will be celebrated in the coming Kingdom.

4) THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM

Religion presents the "Death, Burial, & Resurrection" as destroying God's 10 Righteous Commandments rather than full payment of the Mosaic penalties. Their gospel promises eternity in Heaven and ignores the promised Kingdom coming to Earth.

The coming Kingdom is the glorious pentacle of the plan of God for Earth and Humanity. The "Good News" is that through the blood of Messiah, we are restored and our sin remitted completely. Thus, the coming Kingdom of God is ours to inherit.

Ex perience Acts 2:38

[Evang.Benincasa]

Apostolic Succession
CACI Bishops are not merely Bishops by title (as are most in the Apostolic faith), but are indeed Historic Bishops with valid Apostolic Succession. This speaks to our documented line of Ordination which reaches back to the original Apostles themselves. All over the world, Covenant Apostolic Bishops are part of this unbroken lineage that traces back through the Orthodox Churches of the East, St Peter in Antioch, and the Apostle James in Jerusalem.

Thus, every CACI Elder and Elect Lady is authorized in historic succession to perform the duties and sacraments given to us by the Eternal Head of the Church, Jesus the Messiah.

This ancient gift is not given nor is it to be received lightly

————————————-

Good God in Zion!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hey sis, they have any churches down here in the south?

[Evang.Benincasa]

DISCLAIMER: The Covenant Apostolic Congregations International DOES NOT assume LEGAL responsibility for the Clergy. The Covenant Apostolic Congregations International nor the individual Clergy is an agent for or of the other. However, each member of the clergy is in agreement with the fundamental doctrinal statement of The Covenant Apostolic Congregations International and does pledge to work together within the episcopal authority of our Council. In the event that an investigation finds serious violations of biblical ethics, morals, and values have been committed, or abandonment of the CACI Fundamental Doctrinal Statement has occurred, certain sanctions can be applied up to and including removal of ordination and disconnection from the CACI Fellowship.

—————————-

[Evang.Benincasa]

Pre-Formation

In 2002 Bishop Jesse White, Bishop Mark Jackson, Elder William Gilmore, and Elect Lady Erma Jones (now deceased) were the initial key ministers instrumental in the doctrinal formulation of what would later become the CACI. Gilmore, who did not join the CACI at its founding, had been raised independent Baptist and though he embraced the 7th Day under the tutelage of the Jones family, he remained independent with the exception of the short time that he served about a decade after the CACI was founded. Jones, herself had been raised in the 7th Day Apostolic faith and her father had earlier presided over the Pentecostal Church of Zion. Jackson, a co-founder and charter member of CACI, had extensive family roots in the Holy Church of God, a predominately African American Apostolic organization founded as far back as 1910. White, another co-founder and charter member of CACI, was a fifth generation Apostolic minister whose family had been connected to the Apostolic movement since the 1920’s predating the merger which became the United Pentecostal Church.

The meeting of these ministers brought the 7th Day understanding of Jones in contact with the Apostolic Structure and Sacramental Faith of the early church taught by White and Jackson. These restored elements of the original faith set the stage for the formation of the CACI. Early fellowship style meetings were organized by Bishop White at Mt. Zion Apostolic in Mobile, Al then Pastored by Sis Jones.

The Formation

In 2006, after spending a few years examining and consolidating doctrinal positions, the first official CACI convention was held in Mobile, Al. This meeting was presided over by Bro White with the assistance of Bro Jackson. The network of connected congregations grew over the next few years to reach multiple States in the USA, as well as Australia, the Caribbean, and the Philippines. Key leaders added during this stage were Bishop Fernando Garcia of the Philippines, Bishop Fred Cox of California, and Elect Lady A. J. Layton of Australia.

In 2011 leading Bishops in the CACI began to recognize that their early position opposing the Scriptural Festivals was incorrect. It was apparent that the Apostles themselves continued to observe the Feasts. This created a shake up as some congregations kept to a Non-Festival position while others joyfully embraced the new found experience. Over the next few years the CACI experienced a lull as congregations turned their attention to better understanding how to celebrate the Festivals, while sadly watching other congregations pull away in protest.

By 2014 the issue was settled and the CACI became Apostolic in Doctrine, Sacraments, the 7th Day Sabbath, and Celebration of the Feasts. Ultimately, it was the Feasts that set the stage for exponential growth for the CACI. 2015 saw a number of key people come into the CACI and virtually all of them due to the Feasts. This created a need for a restructuring of the CACI from a network of congregations into a more organized fellowship.

Notable events in 2015

With Bishop Jesse White as Presiding Bishop and Bishop Mark Jackson as Secretary General, the CACI appointed Regional Diocesan Bishops in Arkansas (Bishop William Gilmore), Mississippi (Bishop Chuck Overby), Tennessee (Bishop Chad Sullivan), Indiana (Bishop Chris Reed), as well as a number of Bishops to serve as council; Bishop Michael Adams as Canon to the Ordinary, and Bishop Shane Vaughn to establish a CACI Ministerial Bible College.

Historical note: At the admonition of Bishop Chad Sullivan, the word "Churches" was replaced in the official name of the organization with the word "Congregations" in order to connect more surely to the biblical meaning of “ecclesia”.


Notable events in 2016

In 2016 the CACI faced down a small but boisterous contingent promoting something similar to the ancient Ebionite heresy which erodes the deity of Jesus Christ. Some among them contended that Jesus Christ was the biological son of Joseph, and a sinner until his baptism by John. When pressed, they declare Jesus is God (appearing to be Oneness in theology) but in reality they only mean Jesus "became a god" after his resurrection.

There was tremendous pressure from the leadership of this schism to pretend the matter to be mere semantics allowing it a place withing the CACI. However, the CACI has no common ground with any position declaring Jesus Christ to be a sinner.

Sadly, we lost a small handful of beloved Elders & Ministers. It is our sincere hope that through the grace of Jesus Christ our God and Savior they may someday be reconciled.


Notable events in 2017

2017 was a year of tremendous unity and continued growth within the CACI. Our CACI Festival registrations grew by 50% over the previous year.


Notable events in 2018

In 2018 the CACI faced down "Hebrew Name-ism" or "The Sacred Name Doctrine". This schism teaches that baptism in the Name (according to Acts 2:38) is to be pronounced exclusively in Hebrew, and that "Jesus" is, at the least, insufficient and, at the most, an anti-christ impostor.

Many CACI ministers use Hebrew pronunciations occasionally such as Yahweh, and Y'shua. However, this is not to the exclusion of any other language. The original pronunciation of these names in Hebrew is both unknown and unknowable with the ancient sound of the letters lost to history. This is an indisputable fact. Thus, we can not know with certainty that one pronunciation is more accurate than another.

There is also no evidence that a name is more acceptable when spoke in Hebrew. The scriptures themselves declare that names change from language to language.

"And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." Rev 9:11


Notable events in 2019

2019 has been a year of growth and unity within the CACI fellowship. Both our 2019 Spring and Fall Convocations had the highest number of registered attendees in CACI history. Our Feast of Tabernacles event grew by over 50% in attendance since 2018!

We have accomplished a number of projects including a 10 lesson Home Bible Study course (through the help of Elect Lady Mary Ellis of Texas) and we are in the process of creating an Online Ministerial Training course!

The Work Continues... To God Be The Glory!!

[votivesoul]

The message of the CACI is the hope and promise of the Eternal Kingdom of Messiah. It is expressed throughout the scriptures in these four components...

1) THE COMING KINGDOM OF JESUS CHRIST

Religion presents a mythical Jesus who is returning to end the world, take Christians to heaven, and punish everyone else in hell for all eternity. This is not the Messiah of scripture.

The CACI presents the scriptural Messiah who is our coming King who will restore all things, regenerate the Earth, remove the wicked, establish His Eternal Kingdom in the Earth, and reign with His elect as Kings and Priests.

2) THE LAW OF THE KINGDOM

Religion presents Jesus as a Lawless King. They boldly declare that His work was to destroy the Law and set Christians free from obeying God's Commandments including His 7th Day Sabbath.

The CACI presents a scriptural Messiah who is the "Law Giver", who establishes the New Covenant as the Law written in our hearts, and at His return will send forth the Law from Zion, . The 10 Commandments (including the 7th Day Sabbath) are the great and unchanging constitution upon which both the Old and New Covenants are founded.

3) THE CULTURE OF THE KINGDOM

Religion presents the Pagan cultures of Rome and ancient Babylon repackaged as Christianity. Their annual celebrations can not be found in scripture and were never celebrated by any Apostle or Believer in the first century.

The CACI presents the culture of the Kingdom as instructed by scripture. Our celebrations are the beautiful Festivals given by God in scripture and celebrated by the Apostles deep into the New Testament era. These are not a matter of Law, but rather a matter of Instruction, illuminating the culture that will be celebrated in the coming Kingdom.

4) THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM

Religion presents the "Death, Burial, & Resurrection" as destroying God's 10 Righteous Commandments rather than full payment of the Mosaic penalties. Their gospel promises eternity in Heaven and ignores the promised Kingdom coming to Earth.

The coming Kingdom is the glorious pentacle of the plan of God for Earth and Humanity. The "Good News" is that through the blood of Messiah, we are restored and our sin remitted completely. Thus, the coming Kingdom of God is ours to inherit.

Ex perience Acts 2:38

The coming Kingdom is the glorious pentacle of the plan of God for Earth...

I think they mean pinnacle.

[jediwill83]

The coming Kingdom is the glorious pentacle of the plan of God for Earth...

I think they mean pinnacle.


Holy Tarot Card Batman!

[Michael The Disciple]

Same Jesse White I used to talk to on Paltalk. Had no idea their movement had grown so much.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The coming Kingdom is the glorious pentacle of the plan of God for Earth...

I think they mean pinnacle.

No it's pentacle, I can promise you that. Call it a spiritual Freudian slip.

[coksiw]

observe these Bible principles: give tithe and freewill offerings for the support of the congregation and its gospel ministry

Apostolics yes, but except when it comes to money, lol.

[Tithesmeister]

Apostolics yes, but except when it comes to money, lol.

This doctrine separates the chaff from the wheat IMHO.

[Evang.Benincasa]

This doctrine separates the chaff from the wheat IMHO.

Oh yeah, they can teach no tithing, but teach a bunch of other mess and it's all good.

Stick a fork in this country Jesus. :heeheehee

[votivesoul]

No it's pentacle, I can promise you that. Call it a spiritual Freudian slip.

Their version of the five-fold ministry?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Their version of the five-fold ministry?

Your Kung Fu is very good :yourock

[votivesoul]

Your Kung Fu is very good :yourock

Shephesians 4:11,

11. And she gave some...

[Hoffman]

This doctrine separates the chaff from the wheat IMHO.

You are correct sir/ma’am. :thumbsup

The doctrine of giving tithe to a Pastor is simply unbiblical. It makes me sick when I see a preacher collect tithe, and use it for his personal gain, while there may be some saints in the church struggling.

[Nicodemus1968]

You are correct sir/ma’am. :thumbsup

The doctrine of giving tithe to a Pastor is simply unbiblical. It makes me sick when I see a preacher collect tithe, and use it for his personal gain, while there may be some saints in the church struggling.

As in the words of Bro. Benincasa,

Good God from Zion...

[Tithesmeister]

You are correct sir/ma’am. q

The doctrine of giving tithe to a Pastor is simply unbiblical. It makes me sick when I see a preacher collect tithe, and use it for his personal gain, while there may be some saints in the church struggling.

It is sir.

A little trivia. The term filthy lucre occurs five times in the Bible. Lucre is of course money or profit. Filthy is filthy, or shameful. So we have an implied meaning of shameful profit.

In each occurrence that I will list below, the context is leadership of the church doing so for profit. There is NO other mention of filthy lucre in the KJV Bible other than these five.

1Tim.3

[3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
[8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Tit.1

[7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
[11] Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
1Pet.5

[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

In reference to the bold passage, a bishop teaching a false doctrine (tithing) for what reason? The obvious answer is filthy lucre.

Good God from Zion . . .

Indeed.

[Tithesmeister]

As in the words of Bro. Benincasa,

Good God from Zion...

Brother Nicodemus,

You should really study the instructions of Paul to the elders of the church of Ephesus.

Acts 20

[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

In particular this passage. . .

33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

AND this . . .

[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

He is telling them to work with their own hands. And he says that they should support the weak. In our churches today we have widows supporting the pastor. Paul is exhorting the pastors to support the weak.

Somebody has it backwards.

Is it us?

Or is it Paul?

Take your time.

[Hoffman]

It is sir.

A little trivia. The term filthy lucre occurs five times in the Bible. Lucre is of course money or profit. Filthy is filthy, or shameful. So we have an implied meaning of shameful profit.

In each occurrence that I will list below, the context is leadership of the church doing so for profit. There is NO other mention of filthy lucre in the KJV Bible other than these five.

1Tim.3

[3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
[8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Tit.1

[7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
[11] Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
1Pet.5

[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

In reference to the bold passage, a bishop teaching a false doctrine (tithing) for what reason? The obvious answer is filthy lucre.

Good God from Zion . . .

Indeed.

Bingo!!!

If a man has the call to preach, great! If he wants to start a church great! Don’t do it for money, the tithe doesn’t belong to you. If people give then it goes to help keep the church running, not a pay check to the Pastor or the First Lady. If people dont give, its up to the Pastor and his family to keep the building going. The Pastor must work just like everyone else, some may not like this, yet its the truth none the less. The Pastor supports his family first and foremost, the church comes second.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Brother Nicodemus,

You should really study the instructions of Paul to the elders of the church of Ephesus.

Acts 20

[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

In particular this passage. . .

33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

AND this . . .

[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

He is telling them to work with their own hands. And he says that they should support the weak. In our churches today we have widows supporting the pastor. Paul is exhorting the pastors to support the weak.

Somebody has it backwards.

Is it us?

Or is it Paul?

Take your time.

I guess Paul never heard about what Luke had to say concerning who supported the traveling Rabbi from Galilee Luke 8:1-3

And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance. In the Greek it literally means they supplied Jesus with what they had on them. Or their own money, and resources. Through laboring the ministers should support the weak is what Jesus taught His apostles through the act of the slave robed in a towel and washing feet. The ministers were to do their job as ministry full time, and help those in need through the church family resources. First example is the Jerusalem church as people sell all their belongings and lay the money at the feet of the elders, then the elders took care of everyone through the leadership of the commune. Paul taught in 1st Corinthians 9 that the people were to help those who helped them as ministers. Just like Jesus was supported by the women who were with Him and the 12, buy their own resources. I often find it funny how there are those who believe that Peter was a full time fisherman and Paul a full time tent maker and still were traveling ministers? Jesus personally takes Peter out of his secular vocation, and tells Peter that he would no longer be fishing for fish. Hence the change of occupation to fishing for men. Peter blows this request after Jesus' resurrection by saying "I go a fishing" where he leads other apostles from their Jesus chosen jobs, to the secular vocation with Peter. They spot Jesus on the shore, with some barbeque. Peter is then told to drag the entire humongous catch for Jesus to view. Jesus then reminds Peter about how Jesus changed Peter's occupation. Peter do you love ME more than these. With a great mountain of catch, Peter tells Jesus that he loves Jesus more. Jesus tells Peter the job description, feed my sheep. The first ministry of Jesus Christ was full time and supported by supporters.

[Nicodemus1968]

I guess Paul never heard about what Luke had to say concerning who supported the traveling Rabbi from Galilee Luke 8:1-3

And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance. In the Greek it literally means they supplied Jesus with what they had on them. Or their own money, and resources. Through laboring the ministers should support the weak is what Jesus taught His apostles through the act of the slave robed in a towel and washing feet. The ministers were to do their job as ministry full time, and help those in need through the church family resources. First example is the Jerusalem church as people sell all their belongings and lay the money at the feet of the elders, then the elders took care of everyone through the leadership of the commune. Paul taught in 1st Corinthians 9 that the people were to help those who helped them as ministers. Just like Jesus was supported by the women who were with Him and the 12, buy their own resources. I often find it funny how there are those who believe that Peter was a full time fisherman and Paul a full time tent maker and still were traveling ministers? Jesus personally takes Peter out of his secular vocation, and tells Peter that he would no longer be fishing for fish. Hence the change of occupation to fishing for men. Peter blows this request after Jesus' resurrection by saying "I go a fishing" where he leads other apostles from their Jesus chosen jobs, to the secular vocation with Peter. They spot Jesus on the shore, with some barbeque. Peter is then told to drag the entire humongous catch for Jesus to view. Jesus then reminds Peter about how Jesus changed Peter's occupation. Peter do you love ME more than these. With a great mountain of catch, Peter tells Jesus that he loves Jesus more. Jesus tells Peter the job description, feed my sheep. The first ministry of Jesus Christ was full time and supported by supporters.

So many factors go into this vitriol they have against preachers who preach or receive tithe. I was going to post about how I smell preachers blood, yet i don’t want to stir up a hornets nest.

I ask myself are they this ambitious for the truth? Maybe I’m wrong, yet i dont feel a zeal for truth with all these posts. So, I have to wonder why some people are so vehement against a preacher being fully supported financially through the congregation. I’m beginning to believe that with this doctrine of non tithe or non financial support for the ministry comes the factor that they dont believe the need for a preacher. Instead of having a full time minister devoted to the work, they’d rather have a part time minister, thats there when they need, and will give them there feel good sermonettes.

These brethren will strain at a gnat, and yet swallow a camel. They dont believe God will correct a man if he goes astray, they dont believe in the hand of God because the judgement of God doesn’t come speedily. They’ll use the heart wrenching arguments on how, there are poor widows giving everything they have into the hands of those greedy, good for nothing preachers....

[Nicodemus1968]

Bingo!!!

If a man has the call to preach, great! If he wants to start a church great! Don’t do it for money, the tithe doesn’t belong to you. If people give then it goes to help keep the church running, not a pay check to the Pastor or the First Lady. If people dont give, its up to the Pastor and his family to keep the building going. The Pastor must work just like everyone else, some may not like this, yet its the truth none the less. The Pastor supports his family first and foremost, the church comes second.

You and tithesmeister are one and the same. Hatred for preachers....

[diakonos]

You smell preachers blood ��

[Evang.Benincasa]

So many factors go into this vitriol they have against preachers who preach or receive tithe. I was going to post about how I smell preachers blood, yet i don’t want to stir up a hornets nest.

I ask myself are they this ambitious for the truth? Maybe I’m wrong, yet i dont feel a zeal for truth with all these posts. So, I have to wonder why some people are so vehement against a preacher being fully supported financially through the congregation. I’m beginning to believe that with this doctrine of non tithe or non financial support for the ministry comes the factor that they dont believe the need for a preacher. Instead of having a full time minister devoted to the work, they’d rather have a part time minister, thats there when they need, and will give them there feel good sermonettes.

These brethren will strain at a gnat, and yet swallow a camel. They dont believe God will correct a man if he goes astray, they dont believe in the hand of God because the judgement of God doesn’t come speedily. They’ll use the heart wrenching arguments on how, there are poor widows giving everything they have into the hands of those greedy, good for nothing preachers....

The issue is on both sides, because neither side has a clue what they are talking about half the time. The no tithers and the pro tithers. You see, the church in the mind of church goers is that the church is separate from Israel.
Therefore a whole bunch of problems crop up. Problems which are on so many levels. Support of a full time ministry is as plain as Jesus being Messiah. Yet, ministers receiving tithes as laid out in the Hebrew Bible isn't what Paul or Jesus had in mind. Because you would have people tithing to you all sorts of produce, and fermented beverages, and drinking and eating them before you. It even gets more sketchy than that, and any good non tither will bluster away for literally pages in a thread trying to point these things out. They are right, but they are wrong. Because they aren't taking into consideration how Church Government works. Most of them (not all) really don't believe there is any church governance in the first place. They believe EVERYONE in the church is a minister, an elder, a pastor, an Apostle?
These people end up 86ing conventional church with a PASTOR. To go and live a Bohemian Christian existence with the church called ME, MYSELF, and I. Then when they find a discussion board they go on a campaign to slay every windmilled shaped dragon they can find. They believe in a noble cause to set the captive free from the UPC, so the captives can have more jingle in their pockets. Be free from having to support a pastor, with his expensively attired wife and children. His car, truck, hunting lodge, church building with marble and gold plated toilets, and his gold plated Learjet. The poor widows having to carry the pastor's golf bag out on the course.

[Evang.Benincasa]

You and tithesmeister are one and the same. Hatred for preachers....

I believe they both currently attend churches. So, I don't believe they hate anyone. Especially the guy they are supporting behind the pulpit, with their attendance.

[Nicodemus1968]

The issue is on both sides, because neither side has a clue what they are talking about half the time. The no tithers and the pro tithers. You see, the church in the mind of church goers is that the church is separate from Israel.
Therefore a whole bunch of problems crop up. Problems which are on so many levels. Support of a full time ministry is as plain as Jesus being Messiah. Yet, ministers receiving tithes as laid out in the Hebrew Bible isn't what Paul or Jesus had in mind. Because you would have people tithing to you all sorts of produce, and fermented beverages, and drinking and eating them before you. It even gets more sketchy than that, and any good non tither will bluster away for literally pages in a thread trying to point these things out. They are right, but they are wrong. Because they aren't taking into consideration how Church Government works. Most of them (not all) really don't believe there is any church governance in the first place. They believe EVERYONE in the church is a minister, an elder, a pastor, an Apostle?
These people end up 86ing conventional church with a PASTOR. To go and live a Bohemian Christian existence with the church called ME, MYSELF, and I. Then when they find a discussion board they go on a campaign to slay every windmilled shaped dragon they can find. They believe in a noble cause to set the captive free from the UPC, so the captives can have more jingle in their pockets. Be free from having to support a pastor, with his expensively attired wife and children. His car, truck, hunting lodge, church building with marble and gold plated toilets, and his gold plated Learjet. The poor widows having to carry the pastor's golf bag out on the course.
:thumbsup

[Monterrey]

After a while the Sabbatarians quit having anyone get the Holy Spirit and can't figure out why...

[Tithesmeister]

I guess Paul never heard about what Luke had to say concerning who supported the traveling Rabbi from Galilee Luke 8:1-3

And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance. In the Greek it literally means they supplied Jesus with what they had on them. Or their own money, and resources. Through laboring the ministers should support the weak is what Jesus taught His apostles through the act of the slave robed in a towel and washing feet. The ministers were to do their job as ministry full time, and help those in need through the church family resources. First example is the Jerusalem church as people sell all their belongings and lay the money at the feet of the elders, then the elders took care of everyone through the leadership of the commune. Paul taught in 1st Corinthians 9 that the people were to help those who helped them as ministers. Just like Jesus was supported by the women who were with Him and the 12, buy their own resources. I often find it funny how there are those who believe that Peter was a full time fisherman and Paul a full time tent maker and still were traveling ministers? Jesus personally takes Peter out of his secular vocation, and tells Peter that he would no longer be fishing for fish. Hence the change of occupation to fishing for men. Peter blows this request after Jesus' resurrection by saying "I go a fishing" where he leads other apostles from their Jesus chosen jobs, to the secular vocation with Peter. They spot Jesus on the shore, with some barbeque. Peter is then told to drag the entire humongous catch for Jesus to view. Jesus then reminds Peter about how Jesus changed Peter's occupation. Peter do you love ME more than these. With a great mountain of catch, Peter tells Jesus that he loves Jesus more. Jesus tells Peter the job description, feed my sheep. The first ministry of Jesus Christ was full time and supported by supporters.

In response to this I have only one question for you.

EB, did Jesus (the rabbi from Galilee) ever receive tithes?

Just answer yes or no.

And EB, be truthful.

Thanks.

[Tithesmeister]

You and tithesmeister are one and the same. Hatred for preachers....

Brother Nicodemus,
Hatred for preachers?

Have you ever preached to a drunkard that he won’t go to heaven?

Was it because you hated him?

Instead of accusing me of hating preachers, maybe you should quote an example of a preacher receiving tithes in the Bible, because he was a preacher. To my knowledge being a preacher or a pastor or a prophet, never qualified anyone to receive a tithe in the Bible, in the New Testament or the old.

Levite? Yes

Singer? Yes

Widow or orphan? Absolutely

Preacher? No

Pastor? No

Evangelist? Nah

Instead of accusing the brethren, quote some scripture to the brethren. I’ll be waiting.

[Amanah]

Here is a utube of Chris Reed preaching at True Vine Covenant Apostolics, let me know what you think.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXHF5Y2NEOU&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1US1ATuBD_Wpn08Jm4qrj7Rf4J9k4XkirJ4_WBn XggjhYvfUPuh6UoBRo

[Amanah]

Chris references this prophecy in his message

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq__DCgwrVk

[diakonos]

After a while the Sabbatarians quit having anyone get the Holy Spirit and can't figure out why...

Shots fired :nuke

[jediwill83]

Here is a utube of Chris Reed preaching at True Vine Covenant Apostolics, let me know what you think.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXHF5Y2NEOU&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1US1ATuBD_Wpn08Jm4qrj7Rf4J9k4XkirJ4_WBn XggjhYvfUPuh6UoBRo




My God....thats some preachin...I needed this Sis.

[Nicodemus1968]

Brother Nicodemus,
Hatred for preachers?

Have you ever preached to a drunkard that he won’t go to heaven?

Was it because you hated him?

Instead of accusing me of hating preachers, maybe you should quote an example of a preacher receiving tithes in the Bible, because he was a preacher. To my knowledge being a preacher or a pastor or a prophet, never qualified anyone to receive a tithe in the Bible, in the New Testament or the old.

Levite? Yes

Singer? Yes

Widow or orphan? Absolutely

Preacher? No

Pastor? No

Evangelist? Nah

Instead of accusing the brethren, quote some scripture to the brethren. I’ll be waiting.

That’s the root, for your “ambition” with this tithing issue.

[Tithesmeister]

That’s the root, for your “ambition” with this tithing issue.

So disappointing! Still no scripture?

Do you have any scripture to support your position?

Or is it just talk?

Bring the Word.

[Nicodemus1968]

Brother Nicodemus,
Hatred for preachers?

Have you ever preached to a drunkard that he won’t go to heaven?

Was it because you hated him?

Instead of accusing me of hating preachers, maybe you should quote an example of a preacher receiving tithes in the Bible, because he was a preacher. To my knowledge being a preacher or a pastor or a prophet, never qualified anyone to receive a tithe in the Bible, in the New Testament or the old.

Levite? Yes

Singer? Yes

Widow or orphan? Absolutely

Preacher? No

Pastor? No

Evangelist? Nah

Instead of accusing the brethren, quote some scripture to the brethren. I’ll be waiting.

Luke 10:2-10 KJVS
[2] Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
[3] Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
[4] Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
[5] And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
[6] And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
[7] And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
[8] And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
[9] And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
[10] But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,

V.2 talks about the ones he sent as laborers.
V.3 talks about lambs among wolves, that’s very fitting. Think about it tithemeister.
V.4 don’t carry a purse, script, or shoes. Why? Because the house you enter was suppose to take care of you. Further more it goes on to say, if they don’t then your peace will remain with you.
V.7 for the laborer is worthy of his hire.

Your argument before is, I’m a laborer as well, I preach therefore I should receive a tithe. Everyone is a preacher, everyone is a Pastor. Not in the eyes of God, who’s the watchmen, who’s going to give an account? Not wanting to support your Pastor financially is why Jesus said I send you forth into the midst of wolves.

[Tithesmeister]

Luke 10:2-10 KJVS
[2] Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
[3] Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
[4] Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
[5] And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
[6] And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
[7] And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
[8] And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
[9] And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
[10] But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,

V.2 talks about the ones he sent as laborers.
V.3 talks about lambs among wolves, that’s very fitting. Think about it tithemeister.
V.4 don’t carry a purse, script, or shoes. Why? Because the house you enter was suppose to take care of you. Further more it goes on to say, if they don’t then your peace will remain with you.
V.7 for the laborer is worthy of his hire.

Your argument before is, I’m a laborer as well, I preach therefore I should receive a tithe. Everyone is a preacher, everyone is a Pastor. Not in the eyes of God, who’s the watchmen, who’s going to give an account? Not wanting to support your Pastor financially is why Jesus said I send you forth into the midst of wolves.

I guess I should have been more specific. Please quote scripture about tithing to a pastor or preacher. I thought it was understood that tithing was the subject.

Anyway . . .
Do you abide in someone else’ home?

Does this describe your ministry?

Is your “tithe” eat and drink?

Just post a scripture that says the pastor is entitled to tithing. That’s all I’m asking. If you can’t, just confess that you can’t support the doctrine with scripture. Even EB, who loves to pretend otherwise, will admit he doesn’t believe in the tithe doctrine. But he does believe in giving.

You are making a lot of false accusations. Just focus on the scripture. If you don’t have scripture maybe you should wonder why you don’t have scripture.

God bless you my brother whom I love enough to point out the truth. Because a lot of people won’t tell you.

I have a question for your consideration . . .

Will a preacher or pastor that lies about tithing and never repents, go to heaven?

How about one who covets?

Or one who steals?

Or one who extorts tithes from the membership at the threat of their very salvation?

1Cor.6

[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Do preachers get a pass?

Think about it.

And notice I quoted scripture that is relevant.

[jediwill83]

I guess I should have been more specific. Please quote scripture about tithing to a pastor or preacher. I thought it was understood that tithing was the subject.

Anyway . . .
Do you abide in someone else’ home?

Does this describe your ministry?

Is your “tithe” eat and drink?

Just post a scripture that says the pastor is entitled to tithing. That’s all I’m asking. If you can’t, just confess that you can’t support the doctrine with scripture. Even EB, who loves to pretend otherwise, will admit he doesn’t believe in the tithe doctrine. But he does believe in giving.

You are making a lot of false accusations. Just focus on the scripture. If you don’t have scripture maybe you should wonder why you don’t have scripture.

God bless you my brother whom I love enough to point out the truth. Because a lot of people won’t tell you.

I have a question for your consideration . . .

Will a preacher or pastor that lies about tithing and never repents, go to heaven?

How about one who covets?

Or one who steals?

Or one who extorts tithes from the membership at the threat of their very salvation?

1Cor.6

[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Do preachers get a pass?

Think about it.

And notice I quoted scripture that is relevant.


My stand against tithing isnt one out of stinginess. Its exactly the opposite. By making an unscriptural demand of 10% pastors and leaders rob their people of giving freely and liberally without compulsion and coercion. Theres a big difference in being threatened and managed into doing something vs the spirit that swept through the early church that led them to sell all their goods and lay the money at the feet of the apostles.


Malachi 3:8 was a declaration against the Levites who were misusing what had been given to them by the people and in doing so brought a curse upon the whole house of Israel.


The scripture is continually taken out of context to beat the giver into obedience instead of being a reminder to the receivers that what they do with what is given matters...but of course thats all brushed away with mutterings and blusterings of its theirs to do with what they wish and its just the laities duty to obediently give.


Be careful that the amount and the percentage doesnt take presidence over the spirit and attitude its to be movitivated by which is to never be forced.


There is no virtue or holiness taking part in forced redistribution of someone's resources while holding their salvation as collateral.

[Nicodemus1968]

I guess I should have been more specific. Please quote scripture about tithing to a pastor or preacher. I thought it was understood that tithing was the subject.

Anyway . . .
Do you abide in someone else’ home?

Does this describe your ministry?

Is your “tithe” eat and drink?

Just post a scripture that says the pastor is entitled to tithing. That’s all I’m asking. If you can’t, just confess that you can’t support the doctrine with scripture. Even EB, who loves to pretend otherwise, will admit he doesn’t believe in the tithe doctrine. But he does believe in giving.

You are making a lot of false accusations. Just focus on the scripture. If you don’t have scripture maybe you should wonder why you don’t have scripture.

God bless you my brother whom I love enough to point out the truth. Because a lot of people won’t tell you.

I have a question for your consideration . . .

Will a preacher or pastor that lies about tithing and never repents, go to heaven?

How about one who covets?

Or one who steals?

Or one who extorts tithes from the membership at the threat of their very salvation?

1Cor.6

[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Do preachers get a pass?

Think about it.

And notice I quoted scripture that is relevant.

Not false accusations, I’ll stand by what I posted.

You seem to be caught on one word. You don’t care about the fact that the ministers God sent were to stay in their home, and those men were now dependent on their generosity. What does your generosity look like? What does giving mean to you? You spend a lot of time on this doctrine of yours, yet you have not been specific enough to answer what giving is? Do you have a guideline to give, do you give as the Lord has blessed? Do you give on a whim. We went over this issue again and again. And you still bring it up every chance you get.

Your like people I know that don’t believe in the Holy Ghost speaking with tongues, because Jesus never did it. You look for the exact phrase “all tithe belongs to the 5 fold ministry”. And because it’s not in there you’ll condemn a pastor that that preaches it. If a Pastor is going to hell for preaching about tithe the that means a Pastor is going to hell for preaching against:

TV
Smoking
Drinking
Women wearing pants
Slits
Wedding rings
Going into bars
Swearing

I can go on, the Bible never says specifically thou shalt not. So according to you it must mean it’s ok.

I said before and I’ll say it again, tithe means 1/10, go from there.

People will use their Pastor like the Bible describes, both in the New and Old Testament. They’ll call them all hours of the night, they’ll go to them for counseling, they’ll ask for prayer, the weight of the church is on the Pastors shoulders. They expect a pastor to fulfill his duty as a minister and if he doesn’t, they’ll be chatter within the church. Yet, the moment he talks about tithe or giving he’s an extortioner, a liar, takes advantage of widows.

[Nicodemus1968]

My stand against tithing isnt one out of stinginess. Its exactly the opposite. By making an unscriptural demand of 10% pastors and leaders rob their people of giving freely and liberally without compulsion and coercion. Theres a big difference in being threatened and managed into doing something vs the spirit that swept through the early church that led them to sell all their goods and lay the money at the feet of the apostles.


Malachi 3:8 was a declaration against the Levites who were misusing what had been given to them by the people and in doing so brought a curse upon the whole house of Israel.


The scripture is continually taken out of context to beat the giver into obedience instead of being a reminder to the receivers that what they do with what is given matters...but of course thats all brushed away with mutterings and blusterings of its theirs to do with what they wish and its just the laities duty to obediently give.


Be careful that the amount and the percentage doesnt take presidence over the spirit and attitude its to be movitivated by which is to never be forced.


There is no virtue or holiness taking part in forced redistribution of someone's resources while holding their salvation as collateral.

When people ask me about giving I’ll tell them to give from their heart. If they desire more I’ll tell them to use a 1/10 as a guideline.

Yet, I believe a minister should receive pay from the congregation.

[jediwill83]

When people ask me about giving I’ll tell them to give from their heart. If they desire more I’ll tell them to use a 1/10 as a guideline.

Yet, I believe a minister should receive pay from the congregation.


Do you preach Malachi in context? If not, you arent telling them to give from their heart.

[Evang.Benincasa]

In response to this I have only one question for you.

EB, did Jesus (the rabbi from Galilee) ever receive tithes?

Just answer yes or no.

And EB, be truthful.

Thanks.

Talkmister, did the Rabbi Jesus get support from His followers. Yes or no?
You already know the answer. But your fetish is tithing. Just like I said both side of the argument are right, yet both are wrong. Also preaching to a drunk? :lol I thought was pretty hilarious. You must or never been drunk before or have been around many inebriated people. Anyway, your red flag is a word “tithe” The other side defends a word “tithing” But you already know that. Was Jesus supported? Clearly the answer is yes. Did the Apostle Paul teach that the ministry were to be supported by the people the taught? Absolutely. Did Paul refuse that support? Yes, because he wasn’t going to allow them to make his glorying vain. Just because they were starving out Paul and his ministerial team, and giving the support to others. Did Jesus clearly teach that when His ministers went into a house church they were to bless it with peace, and if rejected take their peace back? Knocking the dirt from their feet back at a rejecting town? Were they also to go to the house and be supplied by the people? Especially since Jesus told them to take NOTHING for their journey. Therefore making it a nessecity to be supplied by the students. Did Jesus tell Peter to QUIT his job of fishing for fish? Did Jesus tell Peter he would now be WORKING fishing for men?
Tapdancer, if preachers stopped calling it tithe? No longer 10%, but told the people to give all they have to the last mite, would you be happy? I don’t know. For someone to join a forum with Tithe in the name was looking for a fight from jump street. No, I think you found your weapon of choice. Instead of educating any minister, you rather have them twisting, while you confuse their sheep? Notice I leave that as a question and not an accusation. Because you attend a tithing church. Therefore while there you obviously aren’t throwing the place into total chaos. Myself believe non tithers were so happy when they discovered that tithing was a temple condition for temple working priesthood. Since the priesthood became extinct with their temple then tithing to the church was wrong. Yet, the church is the remnant of Israel? So the church never reinvented the wheel, so the church remnant has a supported ministry as the temple has a supported ministry. Just one was tithed to, and the other received support. Correct?

[Nicodemus1968]

Do you preach Malachi in context? If not, you arent telling them to give from their heart.

I don’t use Malachi as a verse to pay a preacher 10%.
I use it as a challenge between God and man, and not just financially speaking.

Personally the home missions work I started has not received a offering this year. The saints we have are not at a position for that. The Lord sustains our need. Yet, in time I will teach about giving, and I will teach 10% as a guideline. Yet, it’s not a heaven or hell issue with me. If they give 2% that’s between them and God.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I don’t use Malachi as a verse to pay a preacher 10%.
I use it as a challenge between God and man, and not just financially speaking.

Personally the home missions work I started has not received a offering this year. The saints we have are not at a position for that. The Lord sustains our need. Yet, in time I will teach about giving, and I will teach 10% as a guideline. Yet, it’s not a heaven or hell issue with me. If they give 2% that’s between them and God.

Bro, we DONT need to know about the giving and receiving in your church family. Especially here, where the “never pastored a day in their lives” can critique the impossible.

[n david]

Must every thread be turned into a debate on tithing???

Good grief.

If you don't believe in tithing, don't tithe. If you're complaining about your Pastor taking Malachi out of context and badgering you for not paying tithes, find a different church and Pastor.

[diakonos]

This is all comical. Reminds me of the meme on Facebook. There’s a blond woman pointing at a cat. She tells him, “You said you have an international ministry and preach to the nations.”

The cat responds, “Yes, but on Facebook Live.”

[Michael The Disciple]

Here is a utube of Chris Reed preaching at True Vine Covenant Apostolics, let me know what you think.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXHF5Y2NEOU&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1US1ATuBD_Wpn08Jm4qrj7Rf4J9k4XkirJ4_WBn XggjhYvfUPuh6UoBRo

Quite impressive IMO.

[jediwill83]

Must every thread be turned into a debate on tithing???

Good grief.

If you don't believe in tithing, don't tithe. If you're complaining about your Pastor taking Malachi out of context and badgering you for not paying tithes, find a different church and Pastor.




Id much rather hear your views and opinions on the videos Amanah posted.

[Esaias]

After a while the Sabbatarians quit having anyone get the Holy Spirit and can't figure out why...

How ever did the early Christians get the Holy Ghost, I wonder? Thankfully, the post-apostolic Christians switched to Sunday and have kept on trucking as Spirit-filled as ever, ever since. Right?

Oh, wait...

Side question: Who is responsible for giving people the Holy Ghost? The preacher? The prayer warriors? The altar workers? Sister Biddy in the back row? I wonder how many Sunday keeping "apostolic churches" haven't had anyone get the Holy Ghost (or even get baptised in water) in years?

Another side note: The CACI are caught up in wearing prayer shawls, some of them were slipping into the Sacred Name trap (although it appears they have put the brakes on that recently I guess), and most importantly the whole thing is yet another money scheme for "licensing" preachers, in my opinion. I am sure they mean well, like all denominations, but the whole "let's make a name for ourselves and set up a FEE COLLECTION SCHEDULE FOR A PIECE OF PAPER SO YOU CAN SAY YOU ARE PART OF SOME IN GROUP" just really gets tiresome, after a couple centuries. In my opinion, of course.

[Michael The Disciple]

I don’t use Malachi as a verse to pay a preacher 10%.
I use it as a challenge between God and man, and not just financially speaking.

Personally the home missions work I started has not received a offering this year. The saints we have are not at a position for that. The Lord sustains our need. Yet, in time I will teach about giving, and I will teach 10% as a guideline. Yet, it’s not a heaven or hell issue with me. If they give 2% that’s between them and God.

:highfive

[Esaias]

There is a church from this org near me that I am going to visit.

About The CACI

Covenant Apostolics are Spirit-Filled, Acts 2:38 believers who observe the 7th Day Sabbath and celebrate the great festivals found in the scriptures. We are linked through a rapidly expanding network of congregations, bible study groups, and ministers.

The twentieth century brought great light back into Christianity. Several scripturally focused movements began to resist the pagan influences of Rome. Among these are millions who have discovered the true 7th Day Sabbath, rejected the deeply pagan celebrations of Christmas and Easter (Solstice & Equinox), and reestablished the New Covenant practice of observing biblical feast days "regarding them unto the Lord".

Add to that the Pentecostal/Apostolic Faith movement restoring Spiritual gifts, exuberant lively worship, Water Baptism in the NAME, and the “One God” message. What has emerged is a vibrant, Spirit-filled group of believers who are passionately connected to the Messiah and boldly living out the culture of His coming Kingdom! Our passion is to experience and share the Authentic Gospel of the Kingdom around the world.

https://caci.webs.com/about-us

Tell us how the meeting went, please.

[Evang.Benincasa]

How ever did the early Christians get the Holy Ghost, I wonder? Thankfully, the post-apostolic Christians switched to Sunday and have kept on trucking as Spirit-filled as ever, ever since. Right?

Oh, wait...

Side question: Who is responsible for giving people the Holy Ghost? The preacher? The prayer warriors? The altar workers? Sister Biddy in the back row? I wonder how many Sunday keeping "apostolic churches" haven't had anyone get the Holy Ghost (or even get baptised in water) in years?

Another side note: The CACI are caught up in wearing prayer shawls, some of them were slipping into the Sacred Name trap (although it appears they have put the brakes on that recently I guess), and most importantly the whole thing is yet another money scheme for "licensing" preachers, in my opinion. I am sure they mean well, like all denominations, but the whole "let's make a name for ourselves and set up a FEE COLLECTION SCHEDULE FOR A PIECE OF PAPER SO YOU CAN SAY YOU ARE PART OF SOME IN GROUP" just really gets tiresome, after a couple centuries. In my opinion, of course.

I know Brother Jesse White, I believe he is sincere in his seeking for truth as far as he understands it. The organization thing is part of his belief system. He is third generation or maybe forth? So in my opinion you might take the boy out of the UPCI, but you can never get the UPCI out of the boy.

[LOVE JESUS]

Amanah, are you not happy at your church? Just wondering.

[Nicodemus1968]

Bro, we DONT need to know about the giving and receiving in your church family. Especially here, where the “never pastored a day in their lives” can critique the impossible.

:thumbsup

[Michael The Disciple]

I thought I heard a while back somewhere that Chris Reed was going to join Jesse Whites group.

[Amanah]

Amanah, are you not happy at your church? Just wondering.

I am happy at my church. I love my church family.

[Amanah]

After a while the Sabbatarians quit having anyone get the Holy Spirit and can't figure out why...

Gifts of the Spirit and infillings of the Spirit were happening in a recent utube I watched of their service. So, you are incorrect.

[seguidordejesus]

Apostolic Succession
CACI Bishops are not merely Bishops by title (as are most in the Apostolic faith), but are indeed Historic Bishops with valid Apostolic Succession. This speaks to our documented line of Ordination which reaches back to the original Apostles themselves. All over the world, Covenant Apostolic Bishops are part of this unbroken lineage that traces back through the Orthodox Churches of the East, St Peter in Antioch, and the Apostle James in Jerusalem.

Thus, every CACI Elder and Elect Lady is authorized in historic succession to perform the duties and sacraments given to us by the Eternal Head of the Church, Jesus the Messiah.

This ancient gift is not given nor is it to be received lightly

————————————-

Good God in Zion!

What a hodgepodge. These people have nothing to do with the Eastern Orthodox Church, who would certainly reject them as heretics.

[Amanah]

Tell us how the meeting went, please.

I don't think I will visit them at this time. While there are aspects of their order of worship that appeal to me, there are other aspects that are unpalatable. It's sad.

Also, the more important matter is establishing a church in my city.

What makes it hard is that I really feel that we should honor all of the ten commandments and not participate in pagan holidays. No chance in hell that my current Church will see it that way.

[diakonos]

I don't think I will visit them at this time. While there are aspects of their order of worship that appeal to me, there are other aspects that are unpalatable. It's sad.

Also, the more important matter is establishing a church in my city.

What makes it hard is that I really feel that we should honor all of the ten commandments and not participate in pagan holidays. No chance in hell that my current Church will see it that way.

Just do and keep it to yourself. As soon as I mentioned I don’t celebrate Christmas... well, I got a Christmas gift from a friend that never gave previously. :lol

I stopped throwing the P word around (preterism). That causes issues.

[Amanah]

Just do and keep it to yourself. As soon as I mentioned I don’t celebrate Christmas... well, I got a Christmas gift from a friend that never gave previously. :lol

I stopped throwing the P word around (preterism). That causes issues.

:thumbsup

[Amanah]

Same, I got a christmas card with a tree on it from my Pastor.

:thumbsup

[coksiw]

Just do and keep it to yourself. As soon as I mentioned I don’t celebrate Christmas... well, I got a Christmas gift from a friend that never gave previously. :lol

I stopped throwing the P word around (preterism). That causes issues.

So you are preterits?

So discouraging to see so many people in this forum into that.

That doctrine is slowly destroying the hope of the believers, and their message will spread like cancer, destroying their believers faith in the Word of God by accepting the allegorical interpretation when is convenient as Origin or Augustine would do. Lack of teaching in the church of God, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine.

[Michael The Disciple]

So you are preterits?

So discouraging to see so many people in this forum into that.

That doctrine is slowly destroying the hope of the believers, and their message will spread like cancer, destroying their believers faith in the Word of God by accepting the allegorical interpretation when is convenient as Origin or Augustine would do. Lack of teaching in the church of God, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine.

Exactly:highfive

[diakonos]

So you are preterits?

So discouraging to see so many people in this forum into that.

That doctrine is slowly destroying the hope of the believers, and their message will spread like cancer, destroying their believers faith in the Word of God by accepting the allegorical interpretation when is convenient as Origin or Augustine would do. Lack of teaching in the church of God, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine.

Partial. Or impartial.

[diakonos]

Exactly:highfive

From the space suit Logos and satan drives a UFO guy. Ok. :lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

So you are preterits?

So discouraging to see so many people in this forum into that.

That doctrine is slowly destroying the hope of the believers, and their message will spread like cancer, destroying their believers faith in the Word of God by accepting the allegorical interpretation when is convenient as Origin or Augustine would do. Lack of teaching in the church of God, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine.

Yeah, especially the ones who believe that God created a suit for Himself before the creation of the world. That he puts the suit on when He would visit mankind. That the devil and demons fly air ships and one day will visit the leaders of the world and be accepted by man kind. Destroying faith, is when crackpots teach unbiblical garbage which people get a look on their face like they are sucking lemons. From jokers who claim to be sinless but in reality love strife more than those who they excuse of causing strife. You don't even know what you believe, only that Jesus will return one day in the far far far future. Destroy faith? So, my church family and I have no faith? PROVE IT.

[Evang.Benincasa]

From the space suit Logos and satan drives a UFO guy. Ok. :lol

Well, you beat me to it. :highfive

[coksiw]

Yeah, especially the ones who believe that God created a suit for Himself before the creation of the world. That he puts the suit on when He would visit mankind. That the devil and demons fly air ships and one day will visit the leaders of the world and be accepted by man kind. Destroying faith, is when crackpots teach unbiblical garbage which people get a look on their face like they are sucking lemons. From jokers who claim to be sinless but in reality love strife more than those who they excuse of causing strife. You don't even know what you believe, only that Jesus will return one day in the far far far future. Destroy faith? So, my church family and I have no faith? PROVE IT.

You, as usual, attack the person as a way to win your argument. You, as usual, mock people, as a way to win your argument and draw people to your side.

I do not believe in the Logos doctrine. I have never said that. Then you keep accusing me of things you have never heard from my mouth.

Your argumentation almost never uses Bible, but instead a lot references to some extra biblical sources, and attacking and mocking of people. I just hope people in this forum see that and escape from your rhetoric.

[coksiw]

Partial. Or impartial.

Have you talked to your pastor about it?

[diakonos]

Have you talked to your pastor about it?

Why would I?

[Evang.Benincasa]

You, as usual, attack the person as a way to win your argument. You, as usual, mock people, as a way to win your argument and draw people to your side.

I do not believe in the Logos doctrine. I have never said that. Then you keep accusing me of things you have never heard from my mouth.

Your argumentation almost never uses Bible, but instead a lot references to some extra biblical sources, and attacking and mocking of people. I just hope people in this forum see that and escape from your rhetoric.

Corkscrew you don’t know what you believe, and therefore to say such falsehood about those who believe in another eschatology is lame. I mock people like you because your full of yourself, and saw nothing wrong with drawing first blood.
When you get smacked back in the teeth you want to rally the troops to stop the bad man from tagging your nonsense. Grow up and own your own behavior. We don’t have faith? How sad you are

[Ehud]

You, as usual, attack the person as a way to win your argument. You, as usual, mock people, as a way to win your argument and draw people to your side.

I do not believe in the Logos doctrine. I have never said that. Then you keep accusing me of things you have never heard from my mouth.

Your argumentation almost never uses Bible, but instead a lot references to some extra biblical sources, and attacking and mocking of people. I just hope people in this forum see that and escape from your rhetoric.

So you can say his teaching is a faith-destroying cancer, but he can't mock the UFO guy? Gimme a break.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Why would I?

That’s coming from a guy who gives a shopping list of eschatological terms to say what he might believe. Maybe he should ask his pastor to teach him. :lol

Still waiting to find out when these guys are going to be beaten in the synagogue in front of the Bet Din.

Good grief.

How long have I been asking that question. :lol

[coksiw]

So you can say his teaching is a faith-destroying cancer, but he can't mock the UFO guy? Gimme a break.

You are free you criticize a doctrine I believe all you want. I would denounce bad behavior, and bad doctrine, but I do not attack and individual by calling it arrogant, idiot, lazy, directly or indirectly. That's judging people beyond what you should do, as they are probably misjudging at that point, and coming across as an offense.

BTW, both expressions I used are found in the Bible itself:

[2Ti 2:17-18 NKJV] 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

[Eph 4:14 NKJV] 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

[coksiw]

Corkscrew you don’t know what you believe, and therefore to say such falsehood about those who believe in another eschatology is lame. I mock people like you because your full of yourself, and saw nothing wrong with drawing first blood.
When you get smacked back in the teeth you want to rally the troops to stop the bad man from tagging your nonsense. Grow up and own your own behavior. We don’t have faith? How sad you are


And insult to me as a person, then a false statement, then another insult to me as a person.

I have not said a falsehood about the people that believe in it. They are unfortunately falling into the trap of that doctrine. I stated that that doctrine spreads like a cancer, I said nothing about the individuals that believe it. There are many good people believing that thing, as there are many good people that get cancer.
Cancer spreads thru the body, as that doctrine is spreading thru the Apostolic churches.

[coksiw]

Why would I?

He should know what it is happening in his congregation, and you may find some good teaching challenging your beliefs. Something that you definitely want. Maybe something good comes out of that conversation :thumbsup.

[coksiw]

That’s coming from a guy who gives a shopping list of eschatological terms to say what he might believe. Maybe he should ask his pastor to teach him. :lol

Still waiting to find out when these guys are going to be beaten in the synagogue in front of the Bet Din.

Good grief.

How long have I been asking that question. :lol


The Church I go to, and the fellowship I belong to, don't have a strong position regarding post, mid, pre or prewrath. In fact, in my Church my pastor has allowed teachers to teach their view regarding the topic openly to the church.

I don't see nothing wrong with that, and in fact, I find it is a humbling attitude towards prophecy and its purpose for our life.

Preterism of any kind is definitely rejected.

[Nicodemus1968]

The Church I go to, and the fellowship I belong to, don't have a strong position regarding post, mid, pre or prewrath. In fact, in my Church my pastor has allowed teachers to teach their view regarding the topic openly to the church.

I don't see nothing wrong with that, and in fact, I find it is a humbling attitude towards prophecy and its purpose for our life.

Preterism of any kind is definitely rejected.

Why?

[Ehud]

You are free you criticize a doctrine I believe all you want. I would denounce bad behavior, and bad doctrine, but I do not attack and individual by calling it arrogant, idiot, lazy, directly or indirectly. That's judging people beyond what you should do, as they are probably misjudging at that point, and coming across as an offense.

BTW, both expressions I used are found in the Bible itself:

[2Ti 2:17-18 NKJV] 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

[Eph 4:14 NKJV] 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

Perhaps we'll have to chalk it up to differences in upbringing, but where I come from, telling someone that believes 'X' that 'X' is moronic is received the same as telling someone that believes 'X' that they are a moron.

So by posting your verses, are you saying that those who believe/teach preterism of any sort are overthrowing the faith of some by practicing trickery in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting?

[coksiw]

Why?

Believing in full preterism is a salvation issue, as it affects Soteriology. Partial preterism has the danger of messing with many other doctrines and falling into full preterism as it introduces allegorical interpretation as valid hermeneutics, depending on what degree of partial you are. Partial preterism can also become a salvation issue if you go too far to say there is no more real biological resurrection (only spiritual).
I don't think the Lord will resurrect those are not waiting for him:
[Heb 9:28 NKJV] 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The Church I go to, and the fellowship I belong to, don't have a strong position regarding post, mid, pre or prewrath. In fact, in my Church my pastor has allowed teachers to teach their view regarding the topic openly to the church.

I don't see nothing wrong with that, and in fact, I find it is a humbling attitude towards prophecy and its purpose for our life.

Preterism of any kind is definitely rejected.

Do you understand that pre, post, mid, and especially the Rosenberg Pre Wrath are all diameterically opposed to one another? Just flippantly allowing any of these views to be carelessly from a pulpit creates people like yourself. Confused.
Hence creating the mindset that the foundational 12 apostles must of also been confused about Jesus’ return. But, that’s not what we are talking about. I would of left you alone if you didn’t bloody the nose. By saying that we don’t have FAITH? Then you further the insult by saying that your crew doesn’t give a rip about any particular form of prophecy? That it’s just throw it all up in the air and see where it lands. Faith killing? Looking towards current events year after year getting everyone thinking that every time a world issue arises that we are closer to the end! But the world soldiers on, and more failed predictions. More prophecy teachers with egg on their faces. Dude, but the cream on the top is you can’t answer my questions. Why? Because you are the blind leading the blind. Right! The Preterist is blind? Right? But you can’t help them, you can’t teach them, your preacher can’t teach them. Sweet Jesus, religion is the biggest train wreck and everyone keeps climbing back into the turned over cars. Good grief

[Evang.Benincasa]

Believing in full preterism is a salvation issue, as it affects Soteriology. Partial preterism has the danger of messing with many other doctrines and falling into full preterism as it introduces allegorical interpretation as valid hermeneutics, depending on what degree of partial you are. Partial preterism can also become a salvation issue if you go too far to say there is no more real biological resurrection (only spiritual).
I don't think the Lord will resurrect those are not waiting for him:
[Heb 9:28 NKJV] 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Christ was offered once? Animal sacrifice was continual administrated through a priesthood. As long as that temple stood they offered sacrifice through a priest craft. The system was still intact, with circumcision and temple customs.
Temple gone, priesthood vanished, animal sacrifices no longer being conducted even by those who rejected Christ. But, where are the physical lineages of Aaron? Or any tribe? Gone, no longer to be found, just like the ancient Hittite.
Jesus fulfilled it all by giving it to another nation a true Jerusalem.

[coksiw]

Perhaps we'll have to chalk it up to differences in upbringing, but where I come from, telling someone that believes 'X' that 'X' is moronic is received the same as telling someone that believes 'X' that they are a moron.

No necessarily. People believe in things because of being taught that way, or because they were confused by somebody while they were not prepared enough to handle it, or also because of emotional things like community acceptance, or also to justify sin, etc..., and bunch more stuff.

I also didn't call the doctrine moronic. I said it is like a cancer, that sickens the body of Christ and destroy the faith of many.


So by posting your verses, are you saying that those who believe/teach preterism of any sort are overthrowing the faith of some by practicing trickery in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting?

Believing something is different than active teaching it. Regarding active teachers, it depends on the intentions. We are not living in a period the apostles lived. They faced many "new" false doctrines from inside the church as people mixed stuff with existing beliefs that used to give them more sinful freedom. Today we face many "old" false doctrines coming into the church. We face a lot more people with good intention but wrong, than people with carnal intentions that are wrong.

I just hope few of you that believe in preterism reconsider what you believe, as that doctrine and the basis for it can truly shake your faith and hope.

[Nicodemus1968]

Believing in full preterism is a salvation issue, as it affects Soteriology. Partial preterism has the danger of messing with many other doctrines and falling into full preterism as it introduces allegorical interpretation as valid hermeneutics, depending on what degree of partial you are. Partial preterism can also become a salvation issue if you go too far to say there is no more real biological resurrection (only spiritual).
I don't think the Lord will resurrect those are not waiting for him:
[Heb 9:28 NKJV] 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

I believe in fulfilled eschatology, I speak in tongues, I believe in Acts 2:38, oneness of God, modest living, prayer and fasting, gifts of the spirit....

Why am I not saved?

[Evang.Benincasa]

No necessarily. People believe in things because of being taught that way, or because they were confused by somebody while they were not prepared enough to handle it, or also because of emotional things like community acceptance, or also to justify sin, etc..., and bunch more stuff.

I also didn't call the doctrine moronic. I said it is like a cancer, that sickens the body of Christ and destroy the faith of many.



Believing something is different than active teaching it. Regarding active teachers, it depends on the intentions. We are not living in a period the apostles lived. They faced many "new" false doctrines from inside the church as people mixed stuff with existing beliefs that used to give them more sinful freedom. Today we face many "old" false doctrines coming into the church. We face a lot more people with good intention but wrong, than people with carnal intentions that are wrong.

I just hope few of you that believe in preterism reconsider what you believe, as that doctrine and the basis for it can truly shake your faith and hope.

Really shake my faith?

My faith?

You know that is your own supposition. If we can’t see that, then your words are only meant for you and your followers. Because we can’t see what you are surmising.

[Nicodemus1968]

No necessarily. People believe in things because of being taught that way, or because they were confused by somebody while they were not prepared enough to handle it, or also because of emotional things like community acceptance, or also to justify sin, etc..., and bunch more stuff.

I also didn't call the doctrine moronic. I said it is like a cancer, that sickens the body of Christ and destroy the faith of many.



Believing something is different than active teaching it. Regarding active teachers, it depends on the intentions. We are not living in a period the apostles lived. They faced many "new" false doctrines from inside the church as people mixed stuff with existing beliefs that used to give them more sinful freedom. Today we face many "old" false doctrines coming into the church. We face a lot more people with good intention but wrong, than people with carnal intentions that are wrong.

I just hope few of you that believe in preterism reconsider what you believe, as that doctrine and the basis for it can truly shake your faith and hope.

That’s false. I have more faith now then I did in all those horsemen series. You better watch what you call cancer, while your waiting for a 5’6” Jew to come from the skies.

So are you one of those that believe Jesus is married to the church, and God is married to Israel? Then claim to be one God?

[Evang.Benincasa]

No necessarily. People believe in things because of being taught that way, or because they were confused by somebody while they were not prepared enough to handle it, or also because of emotional things like community acceptance, or also to justify sin, etc..., and bunch more stuff.

I also didn't call the doctrine moronic. I said it is like a cancer, that sickens the body of Christ and destroy the faith of many.



Believing something is different than active teaching it. Regarding active teachers, it depends on the intentions. We are not living in a period the apostles lived. They faced many "new" false doctrines from inside the church as people mixed stuff with existing beliefs that used to give them more sinful freedom. Today we face many "old" false doctrines coming into the church. We face a lot more people with good intention but wrong, than people with carnal intentions that are wrong.

I just hope few of you that believe in preterism reconsider what you believe, as that doctrine and the basis for it can truly shake your faith and hope.

I believe in fulfilled eschatology, I speak in tongues, I believe in Acts 2:38, oneness of God, modest living, prayer and fasting, gifts of the spirit....

Why am I not saved?

The poster said that they see good points in a few eschatological theories. Pre Wrath! Hilter is reincarnated?!?!

Therefore the poster can only tell you but can’t help you.
You are lost, and that’s that. You must get an epiphany by God.
Yet while you are waiting for that to happen they won’t answer your questions they won’t teach you, they will just hope for you. In the meantime you can listen to them be concerned about current events. Wondering how they fit into the Bible. Good God from Zion

[Evang.Benincasa]

That’s false. I have more faith now then I did in all those horsemen series. You better watch what you call cancer, while your waiting for a 5’6” Jew to come from the skies.

So are you one of those that believe Jesus is married to the church, and God is married to Israel? Then claim to be one God?

Oh, the poster is saying we are Hymanaus and Philitus.

If the resurrection past already why didn’t Paul tell his readers to go find the open graves? Hymaneus was obviously teaching that Jesus’ predictions came to pass while the temple was STILL IN PLACE.

[Ehud]

No necessarily. People believe in things because of being taught that way, or because they were confused by somebody while they were not prepared enough to handle it, or also because of emotional things like community acceptance, or also to justify sin, etc..., and bunch more stuff.

As I said, we can chalk that up to differences in perception, but Brother Benincasa wasn't the only one to read your post as an insult.

I also didn't call the doctrine moronic. I said it is like a cancer, that sickens the body of Christ and destroy the faith of many.

I'm not sure why you think cancerous is less insulting than moronic, but yes, moronic was my phraseology, not yours.

Believing something is different than active teaching it. Regarding active teachers, it depends on the intentions. We are not living in a period the apostles lived. They faced many "new" false doctrines from inside the church as people mixed stuff with existing beliefs that used to give them more sinful freedom. Today we face many "old" false doctrines coming into the church. We face a lot more people with good intention but wrong, than people with carnal intentions that are wrong.

If preterism is a salvation issue that lands one in hell, I'm certainly not understanding how believing it and teaching it are any different in effect. Both earn you eternal damnation.

I just hope few of you that believe in preterism reconsider what you believe, as that doctrine and the basis for it can truly shake your faith and hope.

And I hope those of you who believe an incorrect eschatology is a heaven/hell issue will remember that such a stance is much more judgmental than someone poking fun at UFOs.

For the record, I am much more settled and at peace than I ever was when I knew of no alternative to futurism. While you continue to look for a hope in tomorrow, I'm gonna praise God I'm in the kingdom today.

[Evang.Benincasa]

As I said, we can chalk that up to differences in perception, but Brother Benincasa wasn't the only one to read your post as an insult.



I'm not sure why you think cancerous is less insulting than moronic, but yes, moronic was my phraseology, not yours.



If preterism is a salvation issue that lands one in hell, I'm certainly not understanding how believing it and teaching it are any different in effect. Both earn you eternal damnation.



And I hope those of you who believe an incorrect eschatology is a heaven/hell issue will remember that such a stance is much more judgmental than someone poking fun at UFOs.

For the record, I am much more settled and at peace than I ever was when I knew of no alternative to futurism. While you continue to look for a hope in tomorrow, I'm gonna praise God I'm in the kingdom today.

I’m not waiting for Jesus to be crowned, He is crowned, seated in heavenly places.

[coksiw]

Full preterism (at least the people I know personally), deny the need of baptism anymore. Partial preterism is in danger zone as they accepted already allegorical interpretation of the Scripture as valid. Where are you going to stop allegorizing?

If you can't preach the Gospel as the Apostles did, then you are technically preaching a different Gospel. If you can't preach of the resurrection in the future tense, the one the apostles were talking about, you know, the one they said Jesus was the firstfruit, and then the brethren at his coming, leaving the empty grave as Jesus did, ....then, you are preaching a different Gospel.

[Nicodemus1968]

Full preterism (at least the people I know personally), deny the need of baptism anymore. Partial preterism is in danger zone as they accepted already allegorical interpretation of the Scripture as valid. Where are you going to stop allegorizing?

If you can't preach the Gospel as the Apostles did, then you are technically preaching a different Gospel. If you can't preach of the resurrection in the future tense, the one the apostles were talking about, you know, the one they said Jesus was the firstfruit, and then the brethren at his coming, leaving the empty grave as Jesus did, ....then, you are preaching a different Gospel.

Ok.... You don’t believe Jesus has full power on the throne. Wow, I’m more of a Christian than you.

You know, some people I guess need that constant “Jesus is coming back, are you ready” phrase going on in their mind. Some people can’t live for God without that fear.

[Ehud]

Full preterism (at least the people I know personally), deny the need of baptism anymore. Partial preterism is in danger zone as they accepted already allegorical interpretation of the Scripture as valid. Where are you going to stop allegorizing?

If you can't preach the Gospel as the Apostles did, then you are technically preaching a different Gospel. If you can't preach of the resurrection in the future tense, the one the apostles were talking about, you know, the one they said Jesus was the firstfruit, and then the brethren at his coming, leaving the empty grave as Jesus did, ....then, you are preaching a different Gospel.

Says who? You? I'm sorry you've ran into some quacks, but you might wanna put away the broadbrush.

Paul wrote:

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

As such, please be careful in how you define the gospel when it comes to excluding brothers and sisters. The sermon that brought about repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was not preterism or futurism. It was the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[diakonos]

Still waiting to find out when these guys are going to be beaten in the synagogue in front of the Bet Din.

Good grief.

How long have I been asking that question. :lol

:lol

[diakonos]

He should know what it is happening in his congregation, and you may find some good teaching challenging your beliefs. Something that you definitely want. Maybe something good comes out of that conversation :thumbsup.

The last time I brought it up (different church) there was a series of sermons that could have been taken from the Left Behind Series. :nah I’m good.

And what is happening?? Nothing is happening.

[coksiw]

Says who? You? I'm sorry you've ran into some quacks, but you might wanna put away the broadbrush.

Paul wrote:

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

As such, please be careful in how you define the gospel when it comes to excluding brothers and sisters. The sermon that brought about repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was not preterism or futurism. It was the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.


[1Co 15:12-23 NKJV] 12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

See his logic? He preached Jesus was raised from the dead to give you also hope that there is real resurrection from the dead for those that believe in him.

13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching [is] empty and your faith [is] also empty.

Consequences of stop having the hope of real resurrection.


15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if [the] dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.

You can't say there is no real resurrection from the dead as Jesus did and also say that Christ resurrected from the dead.

17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith [is] futile; you are still in your sins!

Consequences again, if you don't believe in a future real resurrection, you don't believe in Christ real resurrection according to Paul, or basically, you nullify it.

18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

Real resurrection from the dead into eternal life is a promise and a necessity.


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, [and] has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man [came] death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those [who are] Christ's at His coming.

If you can't preach that, if you can't say we will resurrect from the dead as Jesus did at his coming, then you are preaching a different Gospel.


I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm just trying to help some of you in this thread to open you eyes to see the danger of that doctrine.

[diakonos]

I just hope few of you that believe in preterism reconsider what you believe, as that doctrine and the basis for it can truly shake your faith and hope.


Shake my faith? Do you know how I arrived to where I’m at?

I was post-trib before I was apostolic. Then I got saved. I attended a UPCI that was dispensationalist. Charts and all. But, the pastor didn’t teach much. He would state that he was pan-trib; it will all pan out in the end. I learned from his son that he was really pre-trib, but his wife was post-trib.

Anyway.

I was a member of a now defunct forum whose focus was eschatology. The mods would refute preterism. I was all on board. I stopped attending a church that had a pastor that believed in partial preterism. (The pastor has since lost his mind. :lol KIDDING)

However, it was in refuting that I learned that I was on the wrong side of the argument.

These things are not worth mentioning in the local assembly. I attend a UPCI that is probably going to be “home” for a while. The UPCI tossed out fulfilled eschatologists like they were yesterday’s garbage.

I want to be part of a body and live in peace.

[jediwill83]

I want to be part of a body and live in peace.





Im glad for you that you've found a home...I know the feeling.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm just trying to help some of you in this thread to open you eyes to see the danger of that doctrine.

If you are trying to open eyes then you really stink at the job. We believe that when we die we go to be with the Lord, as we are absent from the Body. Also premillennialism you only have one verse for a thousand year rule, and guess what? It has an end, and the Holy City is surrounded by an army where the DECEIVED were recruited from the nations by Satan. Maybe you can to us who are blind, since you are sighted, and can lead?

How about the danger of your doctrine. Oh, you don't have one. Not one you can say with one word. Revelation 20:18-19 let me tell you something, you make it up as you go along it will be all on your head.

Coksiw, do you currently believe in soul sleep? That the soul of the wicked is destroyed in the grave?

[diakonos]

Im glad for you that you've found a home...I know the feeling.

Are you still driving Uber?

[jediwill83]

Are you still driving Uber?


No sir. It totally died when the bars and restaurants shut down here...and I've had to focus 100% on Katherine and Abigail due to Katherines health. God has provided thus far and will continue to do so. You driving up there?

[Ehud]

...

I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm just trying to help some of you in this thread to open you eyes to see the danger of that doctrine.

I'm certainly glad you're not trying to win an argument because I'm not entirely sure what you are arguing against. You seem to be insisting that we all believe whatever those you know personally believe. Given the responses you have received, that doesn't appear to be the case.

My understanding of 1 Corinthians 15 is that Paul was defending the fact that there was indeed an afterlife. (I don't know what a gentile Sadducee would have been called, but that seems to be what he was defending against. I could absolutely be mistaken, but that is how I understood it even when I knew of nothing outside futurism.) As best I can tell, no one you have interacted with in this thread believes there is nothing left when we die. If you want to insist on a physical, bodily resurrection that happens in the future as opposed to Brother Benincasa's "absent from the body, present with the Lord" description of what resurrection means, -- I hope I haven't misrepresented you, elder -- then go for it. Tell us we're being inconsistent and explain why. Tell us how it is really going to be. But please stop acting as if every non-futurist disbelieves Christ's resurrection or the gospel as a whole.

I have only recently wandered over to this side, so I'm not one that is going to pretend to have all the answers. However, I can tell you with certainty that if you are truly trying to open eyes, you need to rethink your approach. Nothing you have presented refutes in any way what these other brothers have presented to you. Having said that, this stood out to me:

17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith [is] futile; you are still in your sins!

Consequences again, if you don't believe in a future real resurrection, you don't believe in Christ real resurrection according to Paul, or basically, you nullify it.

First, stop implying that all non-futurists don't believe in a resurrection. They might define it differently than you, but they do believe it. Second, your explanation isn't what the verse says. If Christ isn't risen, He was a fraud, and faith in Him is worthless. As one commentary puts it (paraphrased), a dead redeemer is no redeemer at all.

[Michael The Disciple]

First, stop implying that all non-futurists don't believe in a resurrection. They might define it differently than you, but they do believe it.

And Trinitarians believe in ONE GOD. They just DEFINE it differently than you.

[diakonos]

And Trinitarians believe in ONE GOD. They just DEFINE it differently than you.

the herring is red

[coksiw]

Having said that, this stood out to me:



First, stop implying that all non-futurists don't believe in a resurrection. They might define it differently than you, but they do believe it. Second, your explanation isn't what the verse says. If Christ isn't risen, He was a fraud, and faith in Him is worthless. As one commentary puts it (paraphrased), a dead redeemer is no redeemer at all.

If you read the post from the beginning as a whole you can see my line of thought and why you can come to the conclusion according to Paul's logic that if you don't believe in a future bodily resurrection of the dead as the hope for those that believed in the Gospel, you are effectively denying the Christ's bodily resurrection. This is coming from Paul's logic itself in the passage I explained before. See his logic, his connection of our bodily resurrection with Jesus resurrection, and the fact that it is our hope, and if the hope is removed, you are making Jesus resurrection no fully effective on us according to Paul, and therefore, you are denying Jesus' resurrection, according to Paul's logic.

So the implication of it is that if you are denying Christ bodily resurrection, you are then preaching a different Gospel. The bodily resurrection AS Jesus resurrected, empty grave, is an inseparable part of the Gospel, and Paul didn't stop including it in his preachings as you can see in the book of Acts.

[Ehud]

And Trinitarians believe in ONE GOD. They just DEFINE it differently than you.

Oh, how I loathe when your name pops up.

Yes, exactly like that. If you for even one instance think that someone's inability to accurately describe the godhead is a heaven/hell issue, then I pray you and your sinless perfection have made no errors along the way. I agree wholeheartedly that a truly Trinitarian description of the godhead is or at least borders on tri-theism. I have also never met anyone that actually holds to such an extreme belief. (I admittedly don't get out much though.) Most I have encountered actually hold to a basic oneness position even though they wouldn't describe it as such.

Likewise, someone describing a spiritual instead of physical resurrection is absolutely not the same as someone believing in no resurrection at all. No one in this thread believes Christ didn't resurrect. If you want to accuse others of being mistaken or inconsistent in their descriptions, that's fine, but you don't get to tell others what they believe when they have so clearly stated otherwise.

[Ehud]

the herring is red

Absolutely. Thank you!

[Ehud]

If you read the post from the beginning as a whole you can see my line of thought and why you can come to the conclusion according to Paul's logic that if you don't believe in a future bodily resurrection of the dead as the hope for those that believed in the Gospel, you are effectively denying the Christ's bodily resurrection. This is coming from Paul's logic itself in the passage I explained before. See his logic, his connection of our bodily resurrection with Jesus resurrection, and the fact that it is our hope, and if the hope is removed, you are making Jesus resurrection no fully effective on us according to Paul, and therefore, you are denying Jesus' resurrection, according to Paul's logic.

So the implication of it is that if you are denying Christ bodily resurrection, you are then preaching a different Gospel. The bodily resurrection AS Jesus resurrected, empty grave, is an inseparable part of the Gospel, and Paul didn't stop including it in his preachings as you can see in the book of Acts.

I can't tell if you think I am trying to tell you that you are wrong about a future bodily resurrection -- I am not -- or if I am just that poor a communicator. So let me try again.

As I am new to this side of things, I have no desire to debate you about it all, nor am I equipped to teach a thing about it. But my hesitation to fully embrace what you have presented gives you no right to proclaim me lost for all eternity based on the notion that I am denying the gospel of Christ. I don't need your interpretation of Paul's logic to know what the gospel is because Paul stated it explicitly. It's the same message Peter preached in Acts 2. If you feel the need to add to it, be my guest, but I'm not coming along for the ride. I am in no way telling you that there isn't more to scripture, but as a basic starting point, I believe quoting an apostle is much safer than interpreting one.

[Michael The Disciple]

Oh, how I loathe when your name pops up.

Yes, exactly like that. If you for even one instance think that someone's inability to accurately describe the godhead is a heaven/hell issue, then I pray you and your sinless perfection have made no errors along the way. I agree wholeheartedly that a truly Trinitarian description of the godhead is or at least borders on tri-theism. I have also never met anyone that actually holds to such an extreme belief. (I admittedly don't get out much though.) Most I have encountered actually hold to a basic oneness position even though they wouldn't describe it as such.

Likewise, someone describing a spiritual instead of physical resurrection is absolutely not the same as someone believing in no resurrection at all. No one in this thread believes Christ didn't resurrect. If you want to accuse others of being mistaken or inconsistent in their descriptions, that's fine, but you don't get to tell others what they believe when they have so clearly stated otherwise.

I was not addressing anyone believing Christ did not resurrect. Rather the heresy that the resurrection of the dead taught by Jesus and the Apostles happened in 70ad. Afterwards when one dies they go straight to Heaven......and "currently" THAT passes for a resurrection.

[Nicodemus1968]

I was not addressing anyone believing Christ did not resurrect. Rather the heresy that the resurrection of the dead taught by Jesus and the Apostles happened in 70ad. Afterwards when one dies they go straight to Heaven......and "currently" THAT passes for a resurrection.

To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord...
How does that mean where in soul sleep?

One of Jesus promises was “that we’re I am, ye May be also.” So does that mean Jesus is in the grave as well? Oh, maybe our spirit is with the Lord and our physical body is in the ground waiting to be resurrected?

[Michael The Disciple]

Preterism falls simply because without the heresy of immortal soul they have nothing to offer for eternal life.

[Amanah]

To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord...
How does that mean where in soul sleep?

One of Jesus promises was “that we’re I am, ye May be also.” So does that mean Jesus is in the grave as well? Oh, maybe our spirit is with the Lord and our physical body is in the ground waiting to be resurrected?

in your view, what happens to the wicked when they die?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Preterism falls simply because without the heresy of immortal soul they have nothing to offer for eternal life.

You named one of your dogs after Celibate Misty Edwards?
You believe Demons fly airships and are waiting to appear to the elite. That this world has been primed to accept alien visitors. That Jesus “the Word” was merely a body suit that God formed before He made the world. Mike, there is a plethora of Apostolics, Church going Christians who believe in all kinds mess. That is to some degree is to be expected. They are sweet, beautiful, sincere men and women. You, you on the other hand believe in your mind, that you are not only right but you have some sort of special position in the grand scheme of things. You are “the” teacher, the one who holds the correct doctrine. But don’t they all feel that way? I believe I have the truth. But I’m not convinced that if I don’t get to teach everyone or even ever teach again, that the true doctrine won’t get past on to man kind. Mike, if you believed in basic things you wouldn’t make yourself a target. A target for me anyway. The logos created all things including itself? Is anyone else confused? Satan is a Romulan? Or just Mr Spaceman waiting to visit headquarters in Hazelwood ( I know it moved, I’m just slow at change) But these things never stop you, but other eschatologies are wrong. But you are right? Your Two Wintness teaching you have never taught that in YouTube or even here. Hey maybe I’d agree with it? But we will never know I guess. Also don’t get too upset with constepenny he is only calling them like he sees them. One would think you have something for Misty Edwards. Especially naming one of your dogs after her.

[Nicodemus1968]

You named one of your dogs after Celibate Misty Edwards?
You believe Demons fly airships and are waiting to appear to the elite. That this world has been primed to accept alien visitors. That Jesus “the Word” was merely a body suit that God formed before He made the world. Mike, there is a plethora of Apostolics, Church going Christians who believe in all kinds mess. That is to some degree is to be expected. They are sweet, beautiful, sincere men and women. You, you on the other hand believe in your mind, that you are not only right but you have some sort of special position in the grand scheme of things. You are “the” teacher, the one who holds the correct doctrine. But don’t they all feel that way? I believe I have the truth. But I’m not convinced that if I don’t get to teach everyone or even ever teach again, that the true doctrine won’t get past on to man kind. Mike, if you believed in basic things you wouldn’t make yourself a target. A target for me anyway. The logos created all things including itself? Is anyone else confused? Satan is a Romulan? Or just Mr Spaceman waiting to visit headquarters in Hazelwood ( I know it moved, I’m just slow at change) But these things never stop you, but other eschatologies are wrong. But you are right? Your Two Wintness teaching you have never taught that in YouTube or even here. Hey maybe I’d agree with it? But we will never know I guess. Also don’t get too upset with constepenny he is only calling them like he sees them. One would think you have something for Misty Edwards. Especially naming one of your dogs after her.

Or he could be alluding to the fact that Misty Edwards is... oh forget it. :heeheehee:heeheehee

[Evang.Benincasa]

Or he could be alluding to the fact that Misty Edwards is... oh forget it. :heeheehee:heeheehee

In the immortal words of Rudy...Oh My!

[Nicodemus1968]

in your view, what happens to the wicked when they die?

I plainly believe the wicked are punished. With that said, I do not believe in the annihilation of the wicked. As of right now, I do not believe in Hell Fire, I believe the lake of fire was Jerusalem. I believe because of there rejection of the Lord there was a special destruction for them. I believe for those that reject the word of salvation, there punishment will be a place of darkness without the spirit of God.
I remember Verbal Bean stating, he asked the Lord to show him what Hell was. He said there was a think darkness that covered him and it was complete separation, he didnt feel God, and it was like he was about to go insane. And that was only for like a minute. Thats how I believe, you’ll be separated from God, where there is no light, no peace, no liberty.

[1 God]

I plainly believe the wicked are punished. With that said, I do not believe in the annihilation of the wicked. As of right now, I do not believe in Hell Fire, I believe the lake of fire was Jerusalem. I believe because of there rejection of the Lord there was a special destruction for them. I believe for those that reject the word of salvation, there punishment will be a place of darkness without the spirit of God.
I remember Verbal Bean stating, he asked the Lord to show him what Hell was. He said there was a think darkness that covered him and it was complete separation, he didnt feel God, and it was like he was about to go insane. And that was only for like a minute. Thats how I believe, you’ll be separated from God, where there is no light, no peace, no liberty.

I never heard of this in my life. Where did this idea originate?

[Nicodemus1968]

I never heard of this in my life. Where did this idea originate?

Like I said its my personal opinion.
I believe The Revelation of Jesus Christ was not written to us, but for us.

[1 God]

Like I said its my personal opinion.
I believe The Revelation of Jesus Christ was not written to us, but for us.

Okay, no problem.

[Nicodemus1968]

Okay, no problem.

Why?

If its for our time, shouldn’t be the other way around?

[Michael The Disciple]

You named one of your dogs after Celibate Misty Edwards?
You believe Demons fly airships and are waiting to appear to the elite. That this world has been primed to accept alien visitors. That Jesus “the Word” was merely a body suit that God formed before He made the world. Mike, there is a plethora of Apostolics, Church going Christians who believe in all kinds mess. That is to some degree is to be expected. They are sweet, beautiful, sincere men and women. You, you on the other hand believe in your mind, that you are not only right but you have some sort of special position in the grand scheme of things. You are “the” teacher, the one who holds the correct doctrine. But don’t they all feel that way? I believe I have the truth. But I’m not convinced that if I don’t get to teach everyone or even ever teach again, that the true doctrine won’t get past on to man kind. Mike, if you believed in basic things you wouldn’t make yourself a target. A target for me anyway. The logos created all things including itself? Is anyone else confused? Satan is a Romulan? Or just Mr Spaceman waiting to visit headquarters in Hazelwood ( I know it moved, I’m just slow at change) But these things never stop you, but other eschatologies are wrong. But you are right? Your Two Wintness teaching you have never taught that in YouTube or even here. Hey maybe I’d agree with it? But we will never know I guess. Also don’t get too upset with constepenny he is only calling them like he sees them. One would think you have something for Misty Edwards. Especially naming one of your dogs after her.

This man reminds me of the "antifa people" I see in the streets. They come up and push people and hit people and then cry out "if you put your hands on me again I will .... you up"! "I will call the law on you".

They outright lie or twist ones words. They CANNOT control themselves.

We see it on the forum all the time.

"Antifa" Apostolics.

[diakonos]

That’s funny. Yet you’re the one in the pink knitted hat.

[1 God]

Why?

If its for our time, shouldn’t be the other way around?

I do not believe in Hell Fire, I believe the lake of fire was Jerusalem.

I am just wondering how you arrived at that conclusion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

That’s funny. Yet you’re the one in the pink knitted hat.

Wow, you hit a bull's eye.

[Hoffman]

I plainly believe the wicked are punished. With that said, I do not believe in the annihilation of the wicked. As of right now, I do not believe in Hell Fire, I believe the lake of fire was Jerusalem. I believe because of there rejection of the Lord there was a special destruction for them. I believe for those that reject the word of salvation, there punishment will be a place of darkness without the spirit of God.
I remember Verbal Bean stating, he asked the Lord to show him what Hell was. He said there was a think darkness that covered him and it was complete separation, he didnt feel God, and it was like he was about to go insane. And that was only for like a minute. Thats how I believe, you’ll be separated from God, where there is no light, no peace, no liberty.

Can you provide me with scripture and verse for this assumption?

[Nicodemus1968]

Can you provide me with scripture and verse for this assumption?

If your looking for scripture and verse that states “The lake of fire, which is Jerusalem”, sorry I cant find one.

[Nicodemus1968]

I am just wondering how you arrived at that conclusion.

I arrived at that conclusion, based on the scripture regarding who the Lord was coming to judge.

The Lord was coming to judge the nation that rejected him.

[Tithesmeister]

If your looking for scripture and verse that states “The lake of fire, which is Jerusalem”, sorry I cant find one.

I arrived at that conclusion, based on the scripture regarding who the Lord was coming to judge.

The Lord was coming to judge the nation that rejected him.

This verse seems to indicate otherwise.

Revelation 20

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[1 God]

Tithesmeister, If Jerusalem was the lake of fire as Nicodemus says, then the Jews were cast into it from around the world. I thought they were drug out of it and sent packing?

[Nicodemus1968]

This verse seems to indicate otherwise.

Revelation 20

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

No it doesn’t. Where was this destruction taking place?

[Tithesmeister]

Brother Nicodemus, I apologize for not responding to this earlier. Allow me . . .

Not false accusations, I’ll stand by what I posted.

I understand that you stand by what you post. Your position seems to be right in your own eyes, just because you’re right. I’m asking for scriptural support for your position. You seem to believe that you are above all that.

The apostle Paul wasn’t above all that. He said that the saints at Berea were more noble than the saints at Thessolonica because they studied the scriptures to see if what he was teaching them was actually true.

Acts 17
[11] These (the Berean saints) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Brother, you are quite opposite Paul. You seem to ridicule me and others for asking for scripture references that support your position. Maybe a little self examination is in order?


You seem to be caught on one word. You don’t care about the fact that the ministers God sent were to stay in their home, and those men were now dependent on their generosity.

I actually HAVE invited men of God to stay in my home. I’m glad to house them and feed them. Perhaps even give them an offering to send them on their way. So you are wrong about this. I have done this thing exactly and will most likely do it again. The problem with your doctrine is that this isn’t tithe. It doesn’t mention tithe. It doesn’t mention one tenth. These were Jews who were already giving tithes (if it applied to them). Their tithes were going to the Levitical tribe, the widows, the fatherless and the aliens, as the law commanded.


What does your generosity look like?

It looks. . . Generous.


What does giving mean to you?

We are told to give as unto the Lord. This phrase is often used when the offering is taken. What does it mean to give as unto the Lord? Matthew 25 gives specific examples. Here’s the short version. Please study the full version.

Matthew 25

[44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I understand that this is not what you want to hear, but it is the instructions of Jesus.


You spend a lot of time on this doctrine of yours, yet you have not been specific enough to answer what giving is?

Brother, it is NOT my doctrine. It is God’s doctrine. I’m just trying to live by it. In regards to what giving is? Read the second half of Matthew 25. It is pretty specific about what giving to Jesus is all about. Ironically it doesn’t mention tithing to the pastor. Jesus must have forgotten about the poor pastor! Sorry about that!


Do you have a guideline to give, do you give as the Lord has blessed?

Yes. I have already mentioned Matthew 25. Otherwise I’m about giving as the Lord lays it on my heart. It appears to be something we can agree on.



Do you give on a whim. We went over this issue again and again. And you still bring it up every chance you get. See above.

To be continued . . .

[Tithesmeister]

Continued . . .

Your like people I know that don’t believe in the Holy Ghost speaking with tongues, because Jesus never did it. You look for the exact phrase “all tithe belongs to the 5 fold ministry”. And because it’s not in there you’ll condemn a pastor that that preaches it. If a Pastor is going to hell for preaching about tithe the that means a Pastor is going to hell for preaching against:

TV
Smoking
Drinking
Women wearing pants
Slits
Wedding rings
Going into bars
Swearing

The problem with this analogy is that the tithe doctrine is NOT the same. You have accused me of having my own tithe doctrine. The truth is that the tithe doctrine is God’s. He defined the scriptural tithe. His definition is WAY different from yours. The scriptural tithe doctrine is part of what we refer to as “the Mosaic law”. It really is God’s law for the Israelites. He delivered it to Moses. He also forbade them to change it . . .

Deut.4

[1] Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
[2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Adding to the word is exactly what you are doing. So it’s not really the same thing is it? If you believe it is the same, perhaps you shouldn’t be teaching all that other stuff either.


I can go on, the Bible never says specifically thou shalt not. So according to you it must mean it’s ok.

I believe in being led by the Holy Ghost. I also believe that the Bible was written by men who were inspired by the Holy Ghost.


I said before and I’ll say it again, tithe means 1/10, go from there.

Tithe does mean a tenth. However God specified what He wanted a tenth of. He didn’t leave it up to our imagination. Do you teach that everyone should give the pastor a tenth of their medical bills? Somehow I don’t see that happening.



People will use their Pastor like the Bible describes, both in the New and Old Testament. They’ll call them all hours of the night, they’ll go to them for counseling, they’ll ask for prayer, the weight of the church is on the Pastors shoulders. They expect a pastor to fulfill his duty as a minister and if he doesn’t, they’ll be chatter within the church. Yet, the moment he talks about tithe or giving he’s an extortioner, a liar, takes advantage of widows.

It seems to me that someone (perhaps you?) has failed to teach the Bible to their followers. Allow me to quote scripture. I know that drives you crazy but anyway, humor me.

Acts.20

[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Jas.5

[14] Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Notice that these passages mention elders, which is plural. They don’t even mention pastor. Now I realize that it is possible, even preferable for a pastor to be an elder. It is however NOT possible for a pastor (singular) to be elders (plural). Plural eldership is the scriptural model. Singular pastorship is not. So you may need to step up your Bible studies. And teach accordingly.

God bless you my brother. Don’t rebel against the Word.

[Amanah]

Good grief

[Nicodemus1968]

Brother Nicodemus, I apologize for not responding to this earlier. Allow me . . .



I understand that you stand by what you post. Your position seems to be right in your own eyes, just because you’re right. I’m asking for scriptural support for your position. You seem to believe that you are above all that.

The apostle Paul wasn’t above all that. He said that the saints at Berea were more noble than the saints at Thessolonica because they studied the scriptures to see if what he was teaching them was actually true.

Acts 17
[11] These (the Berean saints) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Brother, you are quite opposite Paul. You seem to ridicule me and others for asking for scripture references that support your position. Maybe a little self examination is in order?



I actually HAVE invited men of God to stay in my home. I’m glad to house them and feed them. Perhaps even give them an offering to send them on their way. So you are wrong about this. I have done this thing exactly and will most likely do it again. The problem with your doctrine is that this isn’t tithe. It doesn’t mention tithe. It doesn’t mention one tenth. These were Jews who were already giving tithes (if it applied to them). Their tithes were going to the Levitical tribe, the widows, the fatherless and the aliens, as the law commanded.



It looks. . . Generous.



We are told to give as unto the Lord. This phrase is often used when the offering is taken. What does it mean to give as unto the Lord? Matthew 25 gives specific examples. Here’s the short version. Please study the full version.

Matthew 25

[44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I understand that this is not what you want to hear, but it is the instructions of Jesus.



Brother, it is NOT my doctrine. It is God’s doctrine. I’m just trying to live by it. In regards to what giving is? Read the second half of Matthew 25. It is pretty specific about what giving to Jesus is all about. Ironically it doesn’t mention tithing to the pastor. Jesus must have forgotten about the poor pastor! Sorry about that!



Yes. I have already mentioned Matthew 25. Otherwise I’m about giving as the Lord lays it on my heart. It appears to be something we can agree on.


See above.

To be continued . . .

Wonderful brother. It’s time for you to begin a home missions work.

[Tithesmeister]

Good grief

Would you care to elaborate?

[Nicodemus1968]

Continued . . .


The problem with this analogy is that the tithe doctrine is NOT the same. You have accused me of having my own tithe doctrine. The truth is that the tithe doctrine is God’s. He defined the scriptural tithe. His definition is WAY different from yours. The scriptural tithe doctrine is part of what we refer to as “the Mosaic law”. It really is God’s law for the Israelites. He delivered it to Moses. He also forbade them to change it . . .

Deut.4

[1] Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
[2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Adding to the word is exactly what you are doing. So it’s not really the same thing is it? If you believe it is the same, perhaps you shouldn’t be teaching all that other stuff either.



I believe in being led by the Holy Ghost. I also believe that the Bible was written by men who were inspired by the Holy Ghost.



Tithe does mean a tenth. However God specified what He wanted a tenth of. He didn’t leave it up to our imagination. Do you teach that everyone should give the pastor a tenth of their medical bills? Somehow I don’t see that happening.




It seems to me that someone (perhaps you?) has failed to teach the Bible to their followers. Allow me to quote scripture. I know that drives you crazy but anyway, humor me.

Acts.20

[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Jas.5

[14] Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Notice that these passages mention elders, which is plural. They don’t even mention pastor. Now I realize that it is possible, even preferable for a pastor to be an elder. It is however NOT possible for a pastor (singular) to be elders (plural). Plural eldership is the scriptural model. Singular pastorship is not. So you may need to step up your Bible studies. And teach accordingly.

God bless you my brother. Don’t rebel against the Word.

Brother when the sick call for the elders in your church, are people healed?

[Nicodemus1968]

Tithesmeister, If Jerusalem was the lake of fire as Nicodemus says, then the Jews were cast into it from around the world. I thought they were drug out of it and sent packing?

Like I said, there is no verse that says the lake of fire is Jerusalem. I just know what and where the judgement was to. The Lord called the Pharisees sons of the devil, he said there will not be one stone left upon another. The preaching of John was, Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. Daniel was to Told to seal up the vision, John in revelation was told to send the letters out because the time will shortly come to pass. I say the lake of fire was Jerusalem. Because the lake of fire is not mentioned anywhere else other than revelation in regards to Jerusalems destruction.

[Nicodemus1968]

Would you care to elaborate?

I believe she’s tired of threads turning into tithe. I’m sorry to tell you brother, but some people love to tithe. You may hate it, or believe it’s wrong, yet there are those that enjoy it.

[Nicodemus1968]

Tithemeister, must be in the church where the Pastor preaches if you don’t fast more than twice a week your going to hell.

Matthew 5:20 KJVS
[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

They fast twice in the week.

Luke 18:11-12 KJVS
[11] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are , extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
[12] I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

[Tithesmeister]

No it doesn’t. Where was this destruction taking place?

Where?

The place in time is referred to as AFTER Satan is loosed from being bound a thousand years. So it seems unlikely that that happened in 70 AD. Has Satan been bound a thousand years?

Also it happens at the white throne judgement which to my knowledge has not yet occurred. I don’t see anything that mentions it being specific to Jews either.

Nor do I see anything that indicates it happens in Jerusalem.

[Tithesmeister]

Tithesmeister, If Jerusalem was the lake of fire as Nicodemus says, then the Jews were cast into it from around the world. I thought they were drug out of it and sent packing?

Brother,

Please don’t ask me to defend his doctrine. I’m not qualified to defend what I don’t understand.

[Nicodemus1968]

Where?

The place in time is referred to as AFTER Satan is loosed from being bound a thousand years. So it seems unlikely that that happened in 70 AD. Has Satan been bound a thousand years?

Also it happens at the white throne judgement which to my knowledge has not yet occurred. I don’t see anything that mentions it being specific to Jews either.

Nor do I see anything that indicates it happens in Jerusalem.

Very well brother. Satan is not bound in your life.

[Tithesmeister]

Very well brother. Satan is not bound in your life.

Is he bound in your life?

For one thousand years?

Just how old are you my brother?

[Nicodemus1968]

Is he bound in your life?

For one thousand years?

Just how old are you my brother?

Brother he is bound in my life.

[Tithesmeister]

Brother he is bound in my life.

Has he been bound for one thousand years in your life?

You are continually addressing only partial scripture, if at all. A thousand years is a long time.

Has the white throne judgement taken place yet?

Brother, you are a piece of work!

[Tithesmeister]

I believe she’s tired of threads turning into tithe. I’m sorry to tell you brother, but some people love to tithe. You may hate it, or believe it’s wrong, yet there are those that enjoy it.

Brother,
1. You don’t believe in tithing.

You have admitted that your church is unable to do so. Surely you don’t believe God would require something of His bride that they are unable to do!

2. I don’t believe you will find that I condemn anyone for tithing. I believe you will find that I focus on people teaching a false doctrine of tithing.

3. I try to teach the scriptural truth about tithes. Some people have never heard it. Some people HAVE heard that it is impossible to be saved unless you tithe on every penny of income. (I realize that you don’t believe this. I’m just sayin that there are pastors who teach this.)

[Nicodemus1968]

Has he been bound for one thousand years in your life?

You are continually addressing only partial scripture, if at all. A thousand years is a long time.

Has the white throne judgement taken place yet?

Brother, you are a piece of work!

Brother, I understand the authority I have through the Holy Ghost. Satan, prince spirits have no authority in my life.

I do use scripture brother. Yet, some maybe even yourself, live by the letter, I live by the spirit. Can I ask you something, I believe in the Bible brother, I really do.

What did Elijah follow? What did Moses follow? What did Paul follow? I believe he (Paul) used the word as a guideline, he followed the Spirit. As the spirit led he went. If others want to live by the letter go ahead.

[Amanah]

I created a sort of synopsis of the flow of Revelation. I do see a theme of the Temple being replaced by the Church.

Chapters 1-3
letters to churches in Asia Minor under Roman Occupation.

Chapter 5
The slain lamb, Jesus, breaks the scrolls and judgment falls. Conquest, war, famine, disease, death. The church experiences martyrdom

Chapter 7
God's people are sealed in their foreheads.
Vast crowd from every nation tribe and people stand before the lamb and worship him, those who died in the tribulation. God preserves His people

Chapter 8
the Lamb breaks the seventh seal
hail falls, water turned to blood, earth on fire, sea is destroyed.

Chapter 9
judgment on those who God has not sealed.

Chapter 11
The temple is measured. Jerusalem is identified as Sodom and Egypt, and the city where the Lord was crucified. The judgment that is falling on the earth is like the judgment that falls on Egypt when Moses leads Israel out. The Temple is open and the ark of the covenant can be seen. The judgment that falls is the like judgment of the curses of the law in Deuteronomy.

Chapter 12
The woman gives birth to Jesus and is led into the wilderness to be protected from the dragon. The woman is the mother of all who keep God's commandments and the testimony of Jesus, She is the Church.

Chapter 13
A beast arises out of the sea, appearing as a leopard, bear, lion, (symbols of empire like in the book of Daniel) The beast wages war on God's people. Another beast arises from the land. Like a lamb, but speaking like a dragon, false religion. Astounding miracles. False religion that is a puppet for the first beast, causing all to take a mark of allegiance

Chapter 14
The church has revival as the gospel goes forth through the earth.

Chapter 17/18
The great prostitute, false religion and the great city, the city that flowed with the blood of the prophets, Jerusalem, is judged and destroyed.


Chapter 19
Jesus appears on a white horse with the armies of heaven to defeat the kingdoms of the world, and the beast and false prophet.

Chapter 20
defeat of Satan and final judgment


Chapter 21
The New Jerusalem, the holy city, comes down from heaven like a bride dressed for her husband. The bride, the wife of the lamb. The church, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. The New Jerusalem, the church, replaces the Old Jerusalem and the sacrificial temple system.

Chapter 22
The river of life flows from the throne, the tree of life is in the city. The Name of Jesus is written on the servants of the lamb.

[Nicodemus1968]

Brother,
1. You don’t believe in tithing.

You have admitted that your church is unable to do so. Surely you don’t believe God would require something of His bride that they are unable to do!

2. I don’t believe you will find that I condemn anyone for tithing. I believe you will find that I focus on people teaching a false doctrine of tithing.

3. I try to teach the scriptural truth about tithes. Some people have never heard it. Some people HAVE heard that it is impossible to be saved unless you tithe on every penny of income. (I realize that you don’t believe this. I’m just sayin that there are pastors who teach this.)

I understand.

[Tithesmeister]

Brother, I understand the authority I have through the Holy Ghost. Satan, prince spirits have no authority in my life.

I do use scripture brother. Yet, some maybe even yourself, live by the letter, I live by the spirit. Can I ask you something, I believe in the Bible brother, I really do.

What did Elijah follow? What did Moses follow? What did Paul follow? I believe he (Paul) used the word as a guideline, he followed the Spirit. As the spirit led he went. If others want to live by the letter go ahead.

I believe that the Spirit will never lead you to contradict the inspired word of God.

Many times the spirit (notice the lower case “s”) WILL lead you to contradict the inspired word of God. When someone tells me that the Holy Ghost leads them to violate the scriptures, I am extremely skeptical.

Paul supported his doctrine with scripture. He didn’t take his doctrine to scripture and conform the scripture to his doctrine.

Paul commended the saints for searching the scripture to establish the veracity of his doctrine.

Paul may not be the best example to quote to support your theory.

[Tithesmeister]

God bless you my brother. I think this discussion is not changing your mind or mine. Maybe it has run its course. Have a blessed day.

[1 God]

I created a sort of synopsis of the flow of Revelation. I do see a theme of the Temple being replaced by the Church.

Chapters 1-3
letters to churches in Asia Minor under Roman Occupation.

Chapter 5
The slain lamb, Jesus, breaks the scrolls and judgment falls. Conquest, war, famine, disease, death. The church experiences martyrdom

Chapter 7
God's people are sealed in their foreheads.
Vast crowd from every nation tribe and people stand before the lamb and worship him, those who died in the tribulation. God preserves His people

Chapter 8
the Lamb breaks the seventh seal
hail falls, water turned to blood, earth on fire, sea is destroyed.

Chapter 9
judgment on those who God has not sealed.

Chapter 11
The temple is measured. Jerusalem is identified as Sodom and Egypt, and the city where the Lord was crucified. The judgment that is falling on the earth is like the judgment that falls on Egypt when Moses leads Israel out. The Temple is open and the ark of the covenant can be seen. The judgment that falls is the like judgment of the curses of the law in Deuteronomy.

Chapter 12
The woman gives birth to Jesus and is led into the wilderness to be protected from the dragon. The woman is the mother of all who keep God's commandments and the testimony of Jesus, She is the Church.

Chapter 13
A beast arises out of the sea, appearing as a leopard, bear, lion, (symbols of empire like in the book of Daniel) The beast wages war on God's people. Another beast arises from the land. Like a lamb, but speaking like a dragon, false religion. Astounding miracles. False religion that is a puppet for the first beast, causing all to take a mark of allegiance

Chapter 14
The church has revival as the gospel goes forth through the earth.

Chapter 17/18
The great prostitute, false religion and the great city, the city that flowed with the blood of the prophets, Jerusalem, is judged and destroyed.


Chapter 19
Jesus appears on a white horse with the armies of heaven to defeat the kingdoms of the world, and the beast and false prophet.

Chapter 20
defeat of Satan and final judgment


Chapter 21
The New Jerusalem, the holy city, comes down from heaven like a bride dressed for her husband. The bride, the wife of the lamb. The church, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. The New Jerusalem, the church, replaces the Old Jerusalem and the sacrificial temple system.

Chapter 22
The river of life flows from the throne, the tree of life is in the city. The Name of Jesus is written on the servants of the lamb.

Sister Amanah, not a single summary(besides the very first) you portrayed is what the book of Revelation is actually saying. What belief system is this?

[Amanah]

Sister Amanah, not a single summary(besides the very first) you portrayed is what the book of Revelation is actually saying. What belief system is this?

I posted this summary in the wrong thread. I need to move it.

[Amanah]

Pre-Formation

In 2002 Bishop Jesse White, Bishop Mark Jackson, Elder William Gilmore, and Elect Lady Erma Jones (now deceased) were the initial key ministers instrumental in the doctrinal formulation of what would later become the CACI. Gilmore, who did not join the CACI at its founding, had been raised independent Baptist and though he embraced the 7th Day under the tutelage of the Jones family, he remained independent with the exception of the short time that he served about a decade after the CACI was founded. Jones, herself had been raised in the 7th Day Apostolic faith and her father had earlier presided over the Pentecostal Church of Zion. Jackson, a co-founder and charter member of CACI, had extensive family roots in the Holy Church of God, a predominately African American Apostolic organization founded as far back as 1910. White, another co-founder and charter member of CACI, was a fifth generation Apostolic minister whose family had been connected to the Apostolic movement since the 1920’s predating the merger which became the United Pentecostal Church.

The meeting of these ministers brought the 7th Day understanding of Jones in contact with the Apostolic Structure and Sacramental Faith of the early church taught by White and Jackson. These restored elements of the original faith set the stage for the formation of the CACI. Early fellowship style meetings were organized by Bishop White at Mt. Zion Apostolic in Mobile, Al then Pastored by Sis Jones.

The Formation

In 2006, after spending a few years examining and consolidating doctrinal positions, the first official CACI convention was held in Mobile, Al. This meeting was presided over by Bro White with the assistance of Bro Jackson. The network of connected congregations grew over the next few years to reach multiple States in the USA, as well as Australia, the Caribbean, and the Philippines. Key leaders added during this stage were Bishop Fernando Garcia of the Philippines, Bishop Fred Cox of California, and Elect Lady A. J. Layton of Australia.

In 2011 leading Bishops in the CACI began to recognize that their early position opposing the Scriptural Festivals was incorrect. It was apparent that the Apostles themselves continued to observe the Feasts. This created a shake up as some congregations kept to a Non-Festival position while others joyfully embraced the new found experience. Over the next few years the CACI experienced a lull as congregations turned their attention to better understanding how to celebrate the Festivals, while sadly watching other congregations pull away in protest.

By 2014 the issue was settled and the CACI became Apostolic in Doctrine, Sacraments, the 7th Day Sabbath, and Celebration of the Feasts. Ultimately, it was the Feasts that set the stage for exponential growth for the CACI. 2015 saw a number of key people come into the CACI and virtually all of them due to the Feasts. This created a need for a restructuring of the CACI from a network of congregations into a more organized fellowship.

Notable events in 2015

With Bishop Jesse White as Presiding Bishop and Bishop Mark Jackson as Secretary General, the CACI appointed Regional Diocesan Bishops in Arkansas (Bishop William Gilmore), Mississippi (Bishop Chuck Overby), Tennessee (Bishop Chad Sullivan), Indiana (Bishop Chris Reed), as well as a number of Bishops to serve as council; Bishop Michael Adams as Canon to the Ordinary, and Bishop Shane Vaughn to establish a CACI Ministerial Bible College.

Historical note: At the admonition of Bishop Chad Sullivan, the word "Churches" was replaced in the official name of the organization with the word "Congregations" in order to connect more surely to the biblical meaning of “ecclesia”.


Notable events in 2016

In 2016 the CACI faced down a small but boisterous contingent promoting something similar to the ancient Ebionite heresy which erodes the deity of Jesus Christ. Some among them contended that Jesus Christ was the biological son of Joseph, and a sinner until his baptism by John. When pressed, they declare Jesus is God (appearing to be Oneness in theology) but in reality they only mean Jesus "became a god" after his resurrection.

There was tremendous pressure from the leadership of this schism to pretend the matter to be mere semantics allowing it a place withing the CACI. However, the CACI has no common ground with any position declaring Jesus Christ to be a sinner.

Sadly, we lost a small handful of beloved Elders & Ministers. It is our sincere hope that through the grace of Jesus Christ our God and Savior they may someday be reconciled.


Notable events in 2017

2017 was a year of tremendous unity and continued growth within the CACI. Our CACI Festival registrations grew by 50% over the previous year.


Notable events in 2018

In 2018 the CACI faced down "Hebrew Name-ism" or "The Sacred Name Doctrine". This schism teaches that baptism in the Name (according to Acts 2:38) is to be pronounced exclusively in Hebrew, and that "Jesus" is, at the least, insufficient and, at the most, an anti-christ impostor.

Many CACI ministers use Hebrew pronunciations occasionally such as Yahweh, and Y'shua. However, this is not to the exclusion of any other language. The original pronunciation of these names in Hebrew is both unknown and unknowable with the ancient sound of the letters lost to history. This is an indisputable fact. Thus, we can not know with certainty that one pronunciation is more accurate than another.

There is also no evidence that a name is more acceptable when spoke in Hebrew. The scriptures themselves declare that names change from language to language.

"And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." Rev 9:11


Notable events in 2019

2019 has been a year of growth and unity within the CACI fellowship. Both our 2019 Spring and Fall Convocations had the highest number of registered attendees in CACI history. Our Feast of Tabernacles event grew by over 50% in attendance since 2018!

We have accomplished a number of projects including a 10 lesson Home Bible Study course (through the help of Elect Lady Mary Ellis of Texas) and we are in the process of creating an Online Ministerial Training course!

The Work Continues... To God Be The Glory!!

Interesting. You can't find this information on CACI's website now.

[Amanah]

People mainly join CACI because of the feasts, and then need to wade through other doctrine that is dissimilar to what most OPs believe.


"By 2014 the issue was settled and the CACI became Apostolic in Doctrine, Sacraments, the 7th Day Sabbath, and Celebration of the Feasts. Ultimately, it was the Feasts that set the stage for exponential growth for the CACI. 2015 saw a number of key people come into the CACI and virtually all of them due to the Feasts. This created a need for a restructuring of the CACI from a network of congregations into a more organized fellowship."

[Amanah]

This is the Bible Study series that was finalized and that I just watched online. It was my first comprehensive understanding of all CACI doctrine:


"We have accomplished a number of projects including a 10 lesson Home Bible Study course (through the help of Elect Lady Mary Ellis of Texas) and we are in the process of creating an Online Ministerial Training course!"

[Esaias]

"By 2014 the issue was settled and the CACI became Apostolic in Doctrine, Sacraments, the 7th Day Sabbath, and Celebration of the Feasts. Ultimately, it was the Feasts that set the stage for exponential growth for the CACI. 2015 saw a number of key people come into the CACI and virtually all of them due to the Feasts. This created a need for a restructuring of the CACI from a network of congregations into a more organized fellowship."

Good grief. I don't mean to pick, but this is the downfall of EVERY movement. What begins as a fellowship of people gets solidified into an institution. Just like what begins as living people gets solidified into a tombstone.

[Esaias]

What is interesting is there are oneness Pentecostal, sabbath-keeping, feast keeping congregations and if I am not mistaken even organizations that have been around longer than the CACI, they just aren't very big or very well-known. Not to mention there are individuals who believe that way who aren't associated with any denomination or organization, or who are still in the UPC or similar organizations but just keeping a low profile.

I don't know why but it irritates me a bit when some group acts like they are the "first" in some area. There really is nothing new under the sun, at least not these days. :)

[Amanah]

What is interesting is there are oneness Pentecostal, sabbath-keeping, feast keeping congregations and if I am not mistaken even organizations that have been around longer than the CACI, they just aren't very big or very well-known. Not to mention there are individuals who believe that way who aren't associated with any denomination or organization, or who are still in the UPC or similar organizations but just keeping a low profile.

I don't know why but it irritates me a bit when some group acts like they are the "first" in some area. There really is nothing new under the sun, at least not these days. :)

This is true. CACI doctrine is derivative. Their light doctrine might be slightly original as they believe that the Immortals will be serving communion to the mortals of the nations which is the Revelation 22:2 tree leaves.

[Evang.Benincasa]

This is true. CACI doctrine is derivative. Their light doctrine might be slightly original as they believe that the Immortals will be serving communion to the mortals of the nations which is the Revelation 22:2 tree leaves.

Looks like Brother Jesse could use a leaf diet. :heeheehee

[Amanah]

CACI history:

"Notable events in 2015

With Bishop Jesse White as Presiding Bishop and Bishop Mark Jackson as Secretary General, the CACI appointed Regional Diocesan Bishops in Arkansas (Bishop William Gilmore), Mississippi (Bishop Chuck Overby), Tennessee (Bishop Chad Sullivan), Indiana (Bishop Chris Reed), as well as a number of Bishops to serve as council; Bishop Michael Adams as Canon to the Ordinary, and Bishop Shane Vaughn to establish a CACI Ministerial Bible College."

**

This is bothering me. Bishop Chad Sullivan has been in CACI leadership for 10+ years. He spoke at Tabernacles and mentioned that he's been filled with the Spirit for about 5 years. They are allowing pastors into the fellowship and into leadership who haven't been born of the water and Spirit, or so it seems.

https://youtu.be/OWIODlMoUS4?si=nSXUMQXlIHwsn4Z6

45:19 on the video

**

[Evang.Benincasa]

CACI history:

"Notable events in 2015

With Bishop Jesse White as Presiding Bishop and Bishop Mark Jackson as Secretary General, the CACI appointed Regional Diocesan Bishops in Arkansas (Bishop William Gilmore), Mississippi (Bishop Chuck Overby), Tennessee (Bishop Chad Sullivan), Indiana (Bishop Chris Reed), as well as a number of Bishops to serve as council; Bishop Michael Adams as Canon to the Ordinary, and Bishop Shane Vaughn to establish a CACI Ministerial Bible College."

**

This is bothering me. Bishop Chad Sullivan has been in CACI leadership for 10+ years. He spoke at Tabernacles and mentioned that he's been filled with the Spirit for about 5 years. They are allowing pastors into the fellowship and into leadership who haven't been born of the water and Spirit, or so it seems.

https://youtu.be/OWIODlMoUS4?si=nSXUMQXlIHwsn4Z6

**

https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYmh0NGYzMGR2NDN3a3kxeG5zYnozdTZ wOTc5dWoxNTZmdzI2c3hkeiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/3ofSBfxkp3fPTgANB6/giphy.webp

[Amanah]

https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYmh0NGYzMGR2NDN3a3kxeG5zYnozdTZ wOTc5dWoxNTZmdzI2c3hkeiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/3ofSBfxkp3fPTgANB6/giphy.webp

Yep, it's 45:19 on the video. Unless it was said in jest and I'm not getting the joke. I want to ask about it but It, but I dislike constantly questioning.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yep, it's 45:19 on the video. Unless it was said in jest and I'm not getting the joke. I want to ask about it but It, but I dislike constantly questioning.

This is how this works, teachers have to be questioned. That’s how students learn. Standing in a pulpit and pontificating isn’t teaching. It’s “telling” people what to do and think. Don’t get me wrong, you can learn from pulpit ministry, but if you have questions they “NEED” to be answered. If you have questions you cannot be embarrassed, fearful, or awkward about frequently asking questions. I always ask the brothers and sisters if they understand what I just taught. What are they thinking? Do you all have any questions? If you don’t have any questions, then please explain it back to me. The problem with cults is that questions aren’t welcomed. The questioner is viewed as a troublemaker. Now, no one welcomes a disruptive individual who wants to stump the preacher. But, if the preacher takes his show on the road, and does Bible study groups out on the street. He will learn how to take questions from opposing views. Plus how to deal with those who just want to disrupt and blow up a peaceful Bible study.

I don’t believe you to be a troublemaker or wanting to be disruptive. You want this whole thing to work. Therefore you want to check with the clergy to make sure you aren’t following them to the nearest ditch. Never, ever stop asking questions. We aren’t getting younger, so we have no time to waste with some revamped UPCI 3.0 all because they have church on Saturday and called Jesus, Yeshua.

[Amanah]

I'm glad I asked, I received these replies to my questions

***

Thank you Sis! It was a wonderful and busy week… 😊. I pray all has been well with you while we were away. I also hope you have been able to enjoy the messages as they’ve been posted.

No need to apologize for the question at all.

Every CACI pastor must have a testimony of a full Acts 2:38 experience.

***

Ah.
That was an inside joke with Bishop Jackson. Bishop Jackson had made a joke about knowing Bishop White for about 5 years the day before.

I believe Bishop Sullivan was filled with the Spirit as a teenager if I’m not mistaken.

So sorry for the confusion.

[Esaias]

I'm glad I asked, I received these replies to my questions

***

Thank you Sis! It was a wonderful and busy week… 😊. I pray all has been well with you while we were away. I also hope you have been able to enjoy the messages as they’ve been posted.

No need to apologize for the question at all.

Every CACI pastor must have a testimony of a full Acts 2:38 experience.

***

Ah.
That was an inside joke with Bishop Jackson. Bishop Jackson had made a joke about knowing Bishop White for about 5 years the day before.

I believe Bishop Sullivan was filled with the Spirit as a teenager if I’m not mistaken.

So sorry for the confusion.

1. Why would a minister make a joke about something like that, in public, without explaining it was a joke?

2. The answer seems like a non-answer. It says they must have an Acts 2:38 experience, but does not address whether or not the individual in question had that experience before becoming accepted as a CACI pastor.

Of course a lot of this is academic to me, and I'm not trying to nitpick or anything. But honestly, nothing really matters except that we follow truth wherever it leads. And if somebody was late to the party, well, at least they are at the party. :)

[Evang.Benincasa]

1. Why would a minister make a joke about something like that, in public, without explaining it was a joke?

You are correct.

My thoughts ran along the same lines, but I would add that it was inappropriate for a church family. Unless the church family is privy to the "inside joke." Yet, to add insult to injury this isn't one guy addressing just a church family. But it's on the world wide web for people like me to view and hear. It's a turn off to listen to some minister joke around with his buddy behind the pulpit, and we all think he is serious about not having the Holy Ghost. Then to find out later that it was just the boys having some lite fun. I don't get the whole organization/bishop thing. I know Brother Jesse grew up in the UPC, but what about these other guys? Were they all UPC as well? I don't think UPCI has an issue with Sabbath keeping, or wanting to use Hebrew in an English speaking country. Is it all about wanting to be a the head of an organization? Who decided to make Brother Jesse the Pope? Did they all draw straws? Roll the dice? Spin the bottle?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yep, it's 45:19 on the video. Unless it was said in jest and I'm not getting the joke. I want to ask about it but It, but I dislike constantly questioning.

He says "I've been filled with the Holy Ghost 5 plus years, I think?" But he follows it with, "I'm using something else that's been said earlier." I would guess, that this was him referring to the supposed "inside joke?" I guess he and his friends were joking around prior to this event?

I hope they have fun in UPCeshua :lol

[Amanah]

He says "I've been filled with the Holy Ghost 5 plus years, I think?" But he follows it with, "I'm using something else that's been said earlier." I would guess, that this was him referring to the supposed "inside joke?" I guess he and his friends were joking around prior to this event?

I hope they have fun in UPCeshua :lol

There must have been joking at the assembly in Alabama and the immediate audience understood the joke. But, only a small group of the CACI was there in attendance. So, most of the CACI watching that video after the fact will not understand. Not to mention anyone else watching the video.

[Amanah]

Issues with organization A:
*Leadership structure: unbiblical
*Communion, rarely
*Paganism
*Eschatology (Dispensationalism)

Issues with organization B:
*Leadership structure: Ignatius of Antioch
*Communion: Ignatius of Antioch
*Initial evidence
*Eschatology (leaves)

[Amanah]

The CACI had a disagreement this year about when to celebrate Tabernacles. It started with a disagreement about when the barley grain was ripe because that determines the first month of the biblical year (the month of passover). Tabernacles is celebrated on the seventh month of the biblical year. Some determined last month to be the 7th month and some determined this month to be the 7th month.

Last night on FB JW called the people who are celebrating Tabernacles this month "Jeroboam." (Jeroboam was given the kingdom of Israel when God divided Israel into two Houses. Jeroboam lost the Kingdom by creating his own festivals at his own times.)

He posted this on FB:

"Be careful Jeroboam.
You were promised the Kingdom.
Tonight is the 8th Month"

I don't know, but I'm guessing those people left.


1 Kings 12:25-33 KJV
25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.
26 And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David:
27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.
28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.
32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.
33 So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.

[Esaias]

The CACI had a disagreement this year about when to celebrate Tabernacles. It started with a disagreement about when the barley grain was ripe because that determines the first month of the biblical year (the month of passover). Tabernacles is celebrated on the seventh month of the biblical year. Some determined last month to be the 7th month and some determined this month to be the 7th month.

Last night on FB JW called the people who are celebrating Tabernacles this month "Jeroboam." (Jeroboam was given the kingdom of Israel when God divided Israel into two Houses. Jeroboam lost the Kingdom by creating his own festivals at his own times.)

He posted this on FB:

"Be careful Jeroboam.
You were promised the Kingdom.
Tonight is the 8th Month"

I don't know, but I'm guessing those people left.


1 Kings 12:25-33 KJV
25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.
26 And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David:
27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.
28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.
32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.
33 So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.

Jeroboam intentionally created a tabernacles-like feast for the 8th month to specifically REPLACE the actual Tabernacles feast. He didn't do it because there was a disagreement over when the 7th month occurred.

For JW (Jessie White?) to call people Jeroboam because they believe we are currently in the 7th month (instead of his belief we are in the 8th month) shows a lack of maturity and is just one more reason I know I will have nothing to do with his new denomination.

Meanwhile, it actually is the 7th month, and Tabernacles starts October 16th in the evening. :thumbsup

[Amanah]

Jeroboam intentionally created a tabernacles-like feast for the 8th month to specifically REPLACE the actual Tabernacles feast. He didn't do it because there was a disagreement over when the 7th month occurred.

For JW (Jessie White?) to call people Jeroboam because they believe we are currently in the 7th month (instead of his belief we are in the 8th month) shows a lack of maturity and is just one more reason I know I will have nothing to do with his new denomination.

Meanwhile, it actually is the 7th month, and Tabernacles starts October 16th in the evening. :thumbsup

I thought it was excessive and that the real issue was that people didn't line up but had their own opinion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

If they are having issues like this now, what will they be doing when they are handing out leaves? :dunno

[Amanah]

If they are having issues like this now, what will they be doing when they are handing out leaves? :dunno

I'm just about done with it all.
Thank you all for supporting me through it.

[diakonos]

If they are having issues like this now, what will they be doing when they are handing out leaves? :dunno

Disagree on which leaves heal the nations? Disagree on whether or not the leaves are green enough? :lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

Disagree on which leaves heal the nations? Disagree on whether or not the leaves are green enough? :lol

Disagree on how many times we are to chew the leaves.

Disagree whether or not you and I are even going to get a leaf. :heeheehee

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'm just about done with it all.
Thank you all for supporting me through it.

We all got to stick together. :thumbsup

[Amanah]

For the record, while I love the people of CACI, I disagree with them on the following points:

* CACI does not believe tongues are the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost. They believe any spiritual gift can be initial evidence.

* CACI believes a form of light doctrine where those who hold CACI beliefs will be immortals on the renewed earth. And others may inhabit the new earth as mortal citizens who will be kept alive through a ministry related to Rev 22:2 where the leaves of the tree heal the nations.

* CACI follows the teaching of Ignatius of Antioch as to church organizational structure and communion as described below:

*Organization Structure*
1. Apostolic Succession: Ignatius emphasized bishops being direct spiritual successors to the apostles.
2. Episcopal Polity: Ignatius advocated for a hierarchical structure, with bishops overseeing local churches.
3. Bishop's Role: Bishops provided spiritual guidance, doctrine and sacraments.
4. Presbyters (Elders): Assisted bishops in governance and ministry.
5. Deacons: Managed practical affairs and served the community.

*Communion Beliefs*
Eucharist for Remission of Sins: Ignatius implied that communion offered forgiveness of sins.

*Key Quotes*
1. "Partake of one Eucharist, for one is the flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one the cup for unity in his blood" (Epistle to the Philadelphians, 4).
2. "Let no man deceive himself, by abstaining from the common sacrifice, and from the spiritual food, which is the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ" (Epistle to the Ephesians, 20:2).
3."They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death." (Epistle to the Ephesians 20:2)

*Sources*
1. "The Epistles of Ignatius" (Ante-Nicene Fathers).
2. "The Apostolic Fathers" (Lightfoot and Harmer).

[Evang.Benincasa]

For the record, while I love the people of CACI, I disagree with them on the following points:

* CACI does not believe tongues are the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost. They believe any spiritual gift can be initial evidence.

* CACI believes a form of light doctrine where those who hold CACI beliefs will be immortals on the renewed earth. And others may inhabit the new earth as mortal citizens who will be kept alive through a ministry related to Rev 22:2 where the leaves of the tree heal the nations.

* CACI follows the teaching of Ignatius of Antioch as to church organizational structure and communion as described below:

*Organization Structure*
1. Apostolic Succession: Ignatius emphasized bishops being direct spiritual successors to the apostles.
2. Episcopal Polity: Ignatius advocated for a hierarchical structure, with bishops overseeing local churches.
3. Bishop's Role: Bishops provided spiritual guidance, doctrine and sacraments.
4. Presbyters (Elders): Assisted bishops in governance and ministry.
5. Deacons: Managed practical affairs and served the community.

*Communion Beliefs*
Eucharist for Remission of Sins: Ignatius implied that communion offered forgiveness of sins.

*Key Quotes*
1. "Partake of one Eucharist, for one is the flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one the cup for unity in his blood" (Epistle to the Philadelphians, 4).
2. "Let no man deceive himself, by abstaining from the common sacrifice, and from the spiritual food, which is the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ" (Epistle to the Ephesians, 20:2).
3."They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death." (Epistle to the Ephesians 20:2)

*Sources*
1. "The Epistles of Ignatius" (Ante-Nicene Fathers).
2. "The Apostolic Fathers" (Lightfoot and Harmer).

Brother Jesse believes in the “one cup” teaching?
What I’m asking is, does his group believe in communion from one cup of wine passed around the congregation. Where each member drinks from the same cup?

[Amanah]

Brother Jesse believes in the “one cup” teaching?
What I’m asking is, does his group believe in communion from one cup of wine passed around the congregation. Where each member drinks from the same cup?

The cup of (wine diluted with grape juice) sits on a table next to a loaf of challah bread broken into pieces. The congregation takes a piece of bread, dips it into the cup, then eats it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The cup of (wine diluted with grape juice) sits on a table next to a loaf of challah bread broken into pieces. The congregation takes a piece of bread, dips it into the cup, then eats it.

You know way back in the day Brother Jesse and Brother Dan Booth were with an organization that taught the “one cup” teaching. They weren’t Sabbath Keepers, but they were hardcore on the “one cup.” They didn’t like me for some reason. Brother Booth asked me to go to one of their meetings. So, I went out of respect for his request. I do remember they also didn’t believe in the “initial evidence” of the Holy Ghost to be tongues.

[Amanah]

You know way back in the day Brother Jesse and Brother Dan Booth were with an organization that taught the “one cup” teaching. They weren’t Sabbath Keepers, but they were hardcore on the “one cup.” They didn’t like me for some reason. Brother Booth asked me to go to one of their meetings. So, I went out of respect for his request. I do remember they also didn’t believe in the “initial evidence” of the Holy Ghost to be tongues.

Brother Jesse is in Mobile AL. True Vine fellowship where I've been attending is 30 minutes north of Sebastian in Palm Bay. Until I watched his latest foundations videos, I had no idea what Bro Jesse taught about initial evidence, among other things. I had never heard my Elder teach on it. And imagine my surprise to learn that according to CACI the UPCI would be among those 2nd tier citizens on the renewed earth.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Brother Jesse is in Mobile AL. True Vine fellowship where I've been attending is 30 minutes north of Sebastian in Palm Bay. Until I watched his latest foundations videos, I had no idea what Bro Jesse taught about initial evidence, among other things. I had never heard my Elder teach on it. And imagine my surprise to learn that according to CACI the UPCI would be among those 2nd tier citizens on the renewed earth.

GeeHaw Witnesses believe in 2nd Tier citizenry on renewed earth. The 144,000 who witnessed WWI are the originals who claim heaven. While the rest of the JWs get to feed apples to tigers on a renewed earth.