The thousands who died never hearing the gospel

[shag]

Will they bake in the lake?

(Like Indian tribes out in the middle of the jungle that were never reached w the gospel, as just one of many examples)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Will they bake in the lake?

(Like Indian tribes out in the middle of the jungle that were never reached w the gospel, as just one of many examples)

Joseph Smith had an answer for that.

How about people in your own town that never had the Bible? Look, forget about some Pygmy in the Congo. There are millions dying lost as a potato right here in the United States of Kamala Bidensky

[shag]

Yes, we need to reach the lost.

However, this particular topic I would like to talk about is, it is the will of God, His intention, for those that have not heard the gospel, to “bake in the lake”?
In other words, is that what is going to happen according to the Scriptures?

Or something else.


Scriptures unclear?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yes, we need to reach the lost.

However, this particular topic I would like to talk about is, it is the will of God, His intention, for those that have not heard the gospel, to “bake in the lake”?
In other words, is that what is going to happen according to the Scriptures?

Or something else.


Scriptures unclear?

I don’t get it? Scriptures unclear? Maybe you need to show what unclear scriptures you are referring to?

[shag]

EB, According to your understanding of the Bible, do you believe people that have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, will “bake in the lake”?

[Amanah]

Matthew 24:37-39
King James Version
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[Evang.Benincasa]

EB, According to your understanding of the Bible, do you believe people that have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, will “bake in the lake”?

Why wouldn’t they?

Will someone in New Jersey die lost today because they never heard the Gospel?

It’s been happening for 2,000 years. Maybe I’m not understanding what unclear scriptures you are referring to?

[shag]

Why wouldn’t they?

Will someone in New Jersey die lost today because they never heard the Gospel?

It’s been happening for 2,000 years. Maybe I’m not understanding what unclear scriptures you are referring to?


So then you believe according to the Bible, they will.

I’m not looking to argue w anyone.

Was just wondering what others thought on the forum, regarding if those that have never heard the gospel will be cast into the lake of fire or not.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So then you believe according to the Bible, they will.

I’m not looking to argue w anyone.

Was just wondering what others thought on the forum, regarding if those that have never heard the gospel will be cast into the lake of fire or not.

Argue is what we do here. Hence the reason we were told as children not to discuss politics and religion. Because of the vast differences in ideologies can disturb a nice dinner party. But, here we come together to hash it all out. Every religion under the sun deals with what happens to the unbeliever. What’s their fate? Will they get their share of manna and cookies. Or will they end up at the wrong end of final judgement?

So, where does the dog boy from Borneo end up? He never heard the Gospel?

Same place the kid who lives in Dade County who never heard and obey the Gospel.

[diakonos]

Only thousands..?

[shag]

Only thousands..?

Well...millions, give or take...whatever the case.

What is your opinion on the question I asked?


I have a very good OP friend that believes there has never been anyone that has existed as an adult, that has never heard the gospel.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Well...millions, give or take...whatever the case.

What is your opinion on the question I asked?


I have a very good OP friend that believes there has never been anyone that has existed as an adult, that has never heard the gospel.

Ok, what do you believe shag? Why don't you tell us OP what YOU believe.

[shag]

Ok, what do you believe shag? Why don't you tell us OP what YOU believe.


I don’t know what I believe on this, but thank you for asking me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I don’t know what I believe on this, but thank you for asking me.

So, how about let’s do a little deconstruction?

Maybe you can show me the unclear scriptures you had mentioned?

[diakonos]

Well...millions, give or take...whatever the case.

What is your opinion on the question I asked?


I have a very good OP friend that believes there has never been anyone that has existed as an adult, that has never heard the gospel.

Well, what gospel? What we know? The trinitarian version?

I believe that God deals with people in different ways. How they respond to that determines wether or not they even hear the gospel. No bible for this whatsoever. Just how I feel.

[coksiw]

Shag, it is a complex reality. The first chapters of Romans comes to mind.
God is just. I believe He deals with each one at least once in their life time, to call (s)he to seek Him. His Spirit calls ever one in his grace to repent.
If somebody responds to that, God will make a way for them to reach salvation.

Take also into account that in the case of Native Americans, they could have come from Asia and there is a tradition that says that one of the apostles reached India.
There were also Monotheist Native Americans.
There is so much that we don’t know, and details missed in the history recording, but God is a just God regardless of what our human reasoning makes or what historians recorded or found out.

Here is another case: Noah. He was the only man found that pleased God in a pre-flood world that could have had more people than we have today. If you do some math: estimated average surviving children per mature couple and number of years before the flood, you will see that there is a possibility that there were more people than we have on earth right now at the time of Noah.

It is OK to have unknowns in life. That’s when you put your trust in God to work: He is just and merciful, and we should simply do what He commanded us to do: preach the full Gospel.

[TGBTG]

From a biblical perspective, EB’s response makes the most sense. If not, what’s the point of going about preaching that people should get saved?
Why are missionaries going to remote places to preach the gospel? Is it not to get them saved?

If not hearing the gospel leaves you blameless, then you are doing a disservice to humanity by preaching the gospel.

So yeah, from a biblical perspective, it’s logical to me that both those who reject the gospel and those who never heard the end up in the same place.

[TGBTG]

ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God

ALL who heard the gospel and rejected it have sinned and come short of the glory of God

Take your pick...

[Esaias]

According to Romans 2:12, all get judged, whether they are in covenant with God or not. If they sin apart from being in covenant, they perish outside the covenant. If they sin within the confines of the covenant, they perish under the terms of the covenant.

Paul was speaking concerning the law, which up to that time was the only voice and knowledge of God in the world. The same principle applies today.

Notice:

Amos 3:1-2 KJV
Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, [2] You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Only Israel had the knowledge of God. Now notice:

Romans 3:9-19 KJV
What then? are we better than they ? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: [14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: [15] Their feet are swift to shed blood: [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways: [17] And the way of peace have they not known: [18] There is no fear of God before their eyes. [19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Everyone is under condemnation and lost. Everyone is righteously and justly on their way to the lake of fire. The Gospel is an opportunity to obtain pardon, a second chance.

If a bunch of convicted criminals are awaiting execution, and some get pardoned, is it any diminishment of justice and equity that the others did not, and wind up having their just sentences carried out?

[shag]

Rev. 20:15 seems pretty clear to me.

[loran adkins]

According to Romans 2:12, all get judged, whether they are in covenant with God or not. If they sin apart from being in covenant, they perish outside the covenant. If they sin within the confines of the covenant, they perish under the terms of the covenant.

Paul was speaking concerning the law, which up to that time was the only voice and knowledge of God in the world. The same principle applies today.

Notice:

Amos 3:1-2 KJV
Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, [2] You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Only Israel had the knowledge of God. Now notice:

Romans 3:9-19 KJV
What then? are we better than they ? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: [14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: [15] Their feet are swift to shed blood: [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways: [17] And the way of peace have they not known: [18] There is no fear of God before their eyes. [19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Everyone is under condemnation and lost. Everyone is righteously and justly on their way to the lake of fire. The Gospel is an opportunity to obtain pardon, a second chance.

If a bunch of convicted criminals are awaiting execution, and some get pardoned, is it any diminishment of justice and equity that the others did not, and wind up having their just sentences carried out?

Not a good comparison if you ask me. These are people that have committed a crime that they are being punished for. But many people that are a Christian just not oneness or holiness but are good people in every since of the word even better than some oneness or holiness but they believe in Christ all the same. I do not believe they will split the pit as some of you might say.

[TGBTG]

Rev. 20:15 seems pretty clear to me.

Meaning?

[TGBTG]

Not a good comparison if you ask me. These are people that have committed a crime that they are being punished for. But many people that are a Christian just not oneness or holiness but are good people in every since of the word even better than some oneness or holiness but they believe in Christ all the same. I do not believe they will split the pit as some of you might say.

You many not believe it, but that’s bible teaching.

[shag]

Meaning?

Seems pretty hard to get around that, if your name isnt written in a book of life you’re going to bake in the lake.
We can debate on what it means to be have your name in the book of life, but it is without question your name would not be written there if you have not at least heard or somehow responded to the gospel, at minimum.

In the end things don’t matter what we think, it only matters what God says.

[coksiw]

Not a good comparison if you ask me. These are people that have committed a crime that they are being punished for. But many people that are a Christian just not oneness or holiness but are good people in every since of the word even better than some oneness or holiness but they believe in Christ all the same. I do not believe they will split the pit as some of you might say.

At the end, it is best to not take a chance with reasoning, and traditions and approach the Bible with faith and an obedient heart.

[Esaias]

Not a good comparison if you ask me. These are people that have committed a crime that they are being punished for. But many people that are a Christian just not oneness or holiness but are good people in every since of the word even better than some oneness or holiness but they believe in Christ all the same. I do not believe they will split the pit as some of you might say.

So you believe salvation is based on works, then?

"Good people"?

Why do you call them good? There is none good but God.

By the way, you completely missed the point.

[consapente89]

Not a good comparison if you ask me. These are people that have committed a crime that they are being punished for. But many people that are a Christian just not oneness or holiness but are good people in every since of the word even better than some oneness or holiness but they believe in Christ all the same. I do not believe they will split the pit as some of you might say.

Which has what to do with anything?

[diakonos]

Which has what to do with anything?

Exactly.

[Costeon]

Rom 5.12-14: 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Is someone's sin counted against them if they have not heard God's law? Were the people Paul refers to lost if their sins were not counted against them?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Rom 5.12-14: 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Is someone's sin counted against them if they have not heard God's law? Were the people Paul refers to lost if their sins were not counted against them?

Two chapters before this chapter Paul explains the condition of the Judean and the Greek. He states that the Greeks had the law written on their hearts even though they never had the law or had it taught to them. Yet, they knew right from wrong to some degree. Yet, at that time God winked at man's ignorance but at the time of the Gospel all men were required to repent. If some individual in Aruba and another in Texarkana never heard the Gospel or even if there was even a Holy Ghost. They are still held accountable and will be judged. Let's keep in mind for 2,000 years you have had new generations pop up through births. New groups who need to hear the Gospel, and not just a story that there once was a nice man who had 12 nice friends. Who were nice, and the one nice man died for you out of his niceness. No, there must be teaching, and that is going back to the beginning. Taking them all the way to the back of the book. But like I said, it's not meant for everybody, and the gate is a tiny one that is almost closed. It is a hard navigated path which leads to that gate. Alas only a few in every generation will find it. We all just need to do our best to teach and preach, and not worry about waxing philosophically on whether the wildman from Borneo will be saved if he had not the truth. If we do indeed feel a pricking in the heart for the shaggy aborigine's soul, then we need to seek him out and teach him the Way.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Not a good comparison if you ask me. These are people that have committed a crime that they are being punished for. But many people that are a Christian just not oneness or holiness but are good people in every sense of the word even better than some oneness or holiness but they believe in Christ all the same. I do not believe they will split the pit as some of you might say.

Another thing is that by whose criteria are those people better or more good than any United Pentecostal? Brother Loren I love you, so don't take this as a EBism. But every man's perception is his truth and reality. This is when we make a judgement call on all the Christians who are nicer than some group of Pentecostals. We are told to walk in the light as He is in the light. That's the Word, but that word is laid on different surfaces of the heart, some receptive, some not so much, others not at all. So, as I tend my own garden and allow the master gardener to tend me, I have my hope in Him. But I'll throw my lot in with the Oneness Apostolics because they (in my opinion) have more going for them then Joe The Mainstream Churchite.

[loran adkins]

Another thing is that by whose criteria are those people better or more good than any United Pentecostal? Brother Loren I love you, so don't take this as a EBism. But every man's perception is his truth and reality. This is when we make a judgement call on all the Christians who are nicer than some group of Pentecostals. We are told to walk in the light as He is in the light. That's the Word, but that word is laid on different surfaces of the heart, some receptive, some not so much, others not at all. So, as I tend my own garden and allow the master gardener to tend me, I have my hope in Him. But I'll throw my lot in with the Oneness Apostolics because they (in my opinion) have more going for them then Joe The Mainstream Churchite.

All I am saying is that, I know many AOG, Baptist, Methodist even that believe in Jesus Christ, that go to church every Sunday and are involved as much as any oneness person. You say who's criteria? You say that what you teach is bible, but that is Just one way of looking at it. Even in oneness you can't agree an everything, so what is to say you cannot be wrong about other things. Jesus taught to love God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as your self. What that looks like varies from one religion to another but we cannot say one religion will go to hell just because they don't see everything just the way you do.

[Amanah]

All I am saying is that, I know many AOG, Baptist, Methodist even that believe in Jesus Christ, that go to church every Sunday and are involved as much as any oneness person. You say who's criteria? You say that what you teach is bible, but that is Just one way of looking at it. Even in oneness you can't agree an everything, so what is to say you cannot be wrong about other things. Jesus taught to love God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as your self. What that looks like varies from one religion to another but we cannot say one religion will go to hell just because they don't see everything just the way you do.

Unitarian universalist?

[consapente89]

All I am saying is that, I know many AOG, Baptist, Methodist even that believe in Jesus Christ, that go to church every Sunday and are involved as much as any oneness person. You say who's criteria? You say that what you teach is bible, but that is Just one way of looking at it. Even in oneness you can't agree an everything, so what is to say you cannot be wrong about other things. Jesus taught to love God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as your self. What that looks like varies from one religion to another but we cannot say one religion will go to hell just because they don't see everything just the way you do.

Sin condemns. All have sinned so all are condemned. A way of escape is provided. The way of escape is repentance, baptism in Jesus name and the infilling of the HG. All your good Methodist, Baptist and AOG were condemned before the ever belonged to those denominations or "believed in Christ". Perhaps they joined their respective denominations and they became "good people". However, they did not enter into covenant with Jesus Christ through New Birth as the Apostles preached it. They were condemned before, and without the covenant, they are condemned now. The only thing that lifts condemnation is the blood and the Spirit.

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost."

Good people, to whom the Gospel is hid, are lost. They were lost before they were good people and they are lost now as good people. Pray for the good people. Pray that His goodness and their sincerity will lead them to the message of salvation. Otherwise, they will go to Hell. Cornelius would be in Hell today if it wasn't for Peter's message.

[Esaias]

You say who's criteria? You say that what you teach is bible, but that is Just one way of looking at it. Even in oneness you can't agree an everything, so what is to say you cannot be wrong about other things.

Conclusion? Nobody can know anything with any certainty.

You do not actually have any faith. You are a bona fide skeptic.

[Esaias]

Rom 5.12-14: 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Is someone's sin counted against them if they have not heard God's law? Were the people Paul refers to lost if their sins were not counted against them?

Verse 13 refers to the Sinaitic Covenant by the term "the law". It does not refer to "law" in the more general sense as "a command or rule of conduct". If it did, that would mean there was no such possibility as sin, contradicting the apostle's very statement in the latter half of the same verse. The apostle is saying that sin (transgression of law) was in the world prior to "the giving of the law" (Sinaitic Covenant). He points out that in the absence of law there cannot be sin (where there is no law sin is not imputed). Yet he asserts without ambiguity that sin was present and people were sinning prior to Mount Sinai's covenant. Therefore, law was present from the beginning (not the Sinaitic Covenant, but Divinely ordained rules for human conduct).

That is the purpose in fact of Genesis, and why it is part of the "Torah" or LAW, even though it is simply an historical narrative without any direct legislation as is found in the other four books of the Law. The purpose of Genesis is, in part, to demonstrate the ancient pre-Sinaitic validity of the commands, statutes, judgments, and ordinances ("laws") that were encoded in the Sinaitic legislation.

The people in Noah's day definitely had sin imputed to them, and were destroyed for it. Thus, there was law in their day. Paul is not saying that people who weren't under the Sinaitic Covenant with it's included legislation are not considered guilty of sin, for Paul elsewhere in previous chapters explicitly affirms the gentiles are under sin and under condemnation in spite of the fact they were outside the law. The conclusion is that they did not have and were not subject to the Sinaitic Covenant (only given to Israel) BUT they certainly were under divine law (moral obligations and rules of conduct).

The same applies today, and must necessarily. All mankind is morally obligated to God and their neighbour, all mankind is under law in the sense they are subject to Divine rules of conduct. Transgression of that is "sin". This is regardless of their relation to the Sinaitic Covenant. Being under sin, they are under the reign of DEATH (v 14 above) and therefore lost.

Christ came to redeem those who were under the law from the curse of the law. That is, Christ came to redeem Israel from the curse imposed by their breaking of the Sinaitic Covenant. The rest of humanity is also under a curse because of sin, and Christ makes possible for them to be redeemed as well without having to first go under the Sinaitic Covenant and then being redeemed by Christ. They can go directly to Christ from their current condition.

[Evang.Benincasa]

All I am saying is that, I know many AOG, Baptist, Methodist even that believe in Jesus Christ, that go to church every Sunday and are involved as much as any oneness person. You say who's criteria?

Just the three groups who mentioned don't actually believe in Jesus Christ. They believe Jesus is not the Father, and not the Holy Ghost. That the Father is literally separate from Jesus, and that the Father looks like Michael Angelo's rendition of the Creation, with white hair, a white beard, surrounded by fat babies. Church dedication means what? What about the Muslim, who is dedicated to Jumu'ah prayer, or when prayer time comes he throws out his flying carpet and builds up his prayer callus on his forehead? Or the Guru, who meditates for literally endless hours in chant? Those guys have as much truth as the Baptist and Methodist. They would fight all together the One God Jesus Name message. No One God, no Holy Ghost infilling with tongues, and no Jesus name baptism, really gets one off on the wrong foot.



You say that what you teach is bible, but that is Just one way of looking at it.

You know Brother Loren, when my father would hear a Christian say the above. He would get this gleam in his eye, and one eyebrow would go way way up. He would then smile, and say....

"so, you are saying that you are wrong? Therefore it's not truth, because it's all based on your own personal opinions? You all agree to disagree? Well, well, well, my dear true believer. You are a loon. If it is all halfway right, then it is all totally wrong. If you can't find the treasure buried in the field, then you obviously sold all that you owned, and ended up losing everything, because you still haven't found the treasure. You just have a field all dug up, with dirt piles and holes. Everyone walking by shaking their heads, exclaiming that they sure wouldn't make the same mistake you have made. Pitiful."

My dad couldn't suffer anyone who would offer a weak argument for a religion that was supposed to be THE TRUTH!!! It is the truth for crying out loud! It is the Bible, it is the Jesus, it is the Cross! If we are fumbling around like the blind, then no matter who believes what we eventually fall into a ditch! Why argue one verse concerning eschatology? One verse on soteriology? Theology?My lands, you are all wrong, because you all can't be right? So, where is the baby? Oh, he got thrown out with the dirty bath water long ago. So, let's all sit down and sing kumbaya, because we all believe in the nice man from Galilee???? My dad would sit back and shake his head in disbelief.



Even in oneness you can't agree on everything, so what is to say you cannot be wrong about other things. Jesus taught to love God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. What that looks like varies from one religion to another but we cannot say one religion will go to hell just because they don't see everything just the way you do.

Then there is the rub, because what is to say that Christianity isn't the loser? Brother Loren, just take the word "oneness" out of your sentence. Put Christians in there instead. My father was a devout atheist, and let me tell you. When atheists read what you post they sit back and laugh, because if you aren't on the path, if you are half on the path? Then Sunny Jim, there is no path. The Bible is truth, the way to that truth is EXTREMELY hard to navigate. The door way to that truth is EXTREMELY small and few enter in.

I'm going to do my best to make sure I'm able to see the light on the path, and be able to help others. Like I always say, its not meant for everybody. But with all my looking, I would rather be standing with Apostolic Pentecostals then with the billions different religions that are out there.

One God, Jesus Name, infilling with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, then let's see Pilgrim's progress.

[shag]

Verse 13 refers to the Sinaitic Covenant by the term "the law". It does not refer to "law" in the more general sense as "a command or rule of conduct". If it did, that would mean there was no such possibility as sin, contradicting the apostle's very statement in the latter half of the same verse. The apostle is saying that sin (transgression of law) was in the world prior to "the giving of the law" (Sinaitic Covenant). He points out that in the absence of law there cannot be sin (where there is no law sin is not imputed). Yet he asserts without ambiguity that sin was present and people were sinning prior to Mount Sinai's covenant. Therefore, law was present from the beginning (not the Sinaitic Covenant, but Divinely ordained rules for human conduct).

That is the purpose in fact of Genesis, and why it is part of the "Torah" or LAW, even though it is simply an historical narrative without any direct legislation as is found in the other four books of the Law. The purpose of Genesis is, in part, to demonstrate the ancient pre-Sinaitic validity of the commands, statutes, judgments, and ordinances ("laws") that were encoded in the Sinaitic legislation.

The people in Noah's day definitely had sin imputed to them, and were destroyed for it. Thus, there was law in their day. Paul is not saying that people who weren't under the Sinaitic Covenant with it's included legislation are not considered guilty of sin, for Paul elsewhere in previous chapters explicitly affirms the gentiles are under sin and under condemnation in spite of the fact they were outside the law. The conclusion is that they did not have and were not subject to the Sinaitic Covenant (only given to Israel) BUT they certainly were under divine law (moral obligations and rules of conduct).

The same applies today, and must necessarily. All mankind is morally obligated to God and their neighbour, all mankind is under law in the sense they are subject to Divine rules of conduct. Transgression of that is "sin". This is regardless of their relation to the Sinaitic Covenant. Being under sin, they are under the reign of DEATH (v 14 above) and therefore lost.

Christ came to redeem those who were under the law from the curse of the law. That is, Christ came to redeem Israel from the curse imposed by their breaking of the Sinaitic Covenant. The rest of humanity is also under a curse because of sin, and Christ makes possible for them to be redeemed as well without having to first go under the Sinaitic Covenant and then being redeemed by Christ. They can go directly to Christ from their current condition.


This is a great post, with a great point.

[shag]

I have trouble lumping all the Bible believing Christian disciples that are doing their best as do we apostolic‘s, to understand the Scriptures, and obey the Scriptures, and love and serve God with all their heart....lumping them into the same category as those religions that are not attempting to be a disciple of Christ.
On the one hand we have many Christian disciples devoted to serving God and obeying him as best they can understand the Bible, and on the other hand others that don’t want anything to do with Christ or the Bible.

Doesn’t mean The disciple of Christ is accurate in their theology, but putting them in the same category as someone who wants nothing to do with Jesus Christ, I cannot do.
However, that doesn’t really matter, what matters is the valid question, does God?

Makes me think of Mark 9:38-41

[loran adkins]

[QUOTE=Evang.Benincasa;1594173]Just the three groups who mentioned don't actually believe in Jesus Christ. They believe Jesus is not the Father, and not the Holy Ghost. That the Father is literally separate from Jesus, and that the Father looks like Michael Angelo's rendition of the Creation, with white hair, a white beard, surrounded by fat babies. Church dedication means what? What about the Muslim, who is dedicated to Jumu'ah prayer, or when prayer time comes he throws out his flying carpet and builds up his prayer callus on his forehead? Or the Guru, who meditates for literally endless hours in chant? Those guys have as much truth as the Baptist and Methodist. They would fight all together the One God Jesus Name message. No One God, no Holy Ghost infilling with tongues, and no Jesus name baptism, really gets one off on the wrong foot.


I am only going to respond to this part of the post. Because I have a hard time believing that you mean what you are saying about just the three religions I mentioned. My pastor I was raised under had come out of the assembly of God. And was very close still to any assembly's of God. I have myself gone several years to assembly of God church, and was very close to the pastor and would spend lunch times with him going over his beliefs.

Bottom line the same spirit that would flow in the oneness church I was raised in was the same spirit that would flow in the AOG. Their belief was that salvation came through belief in Christ it was that simple. Baptism and speaking with tongues came after belief in Christ. So to say they do not believe in Christ Jesus and his laws would be a lie. What they don't see is what you say the bible says about the style of holiness you believe in.
But then neither do I, having been under several different oneness pastors in my life that taught varying degrees of holiness from women wearing pants to women cutting their hair and wearing makeup and jewelry, if one church with a liberal standard was saved who was I to say who was saved and who was not.

[loran adkins]

I have trouble lumping all the Bible believing Christian disciples that are doing their best as do we apostolic‘s, to understand the Scriptures, and obey the Scriptures, and love and serve God with all their heart....lumping them into the same category as those religions that are not attempting to be a disciple of Christ.
On the one hand we have many Christian disciples devoted to serving God and obeying him as best they can understand the Bible, and on the other hand others that don’t want anything to do with Christ or the Bible.

Doesn’t mean The disciple of Christ is accurate in their theology, but putting them in the same category as someone who wants nothing to do with Jesus Christ, I cannot do.
However, that doesn’t really matter, what matters is the valid question, does God?

Makes me think of Mark 9:38-41

And this is the bottom line, not what we think but what God thinks, and if God fills others with his spirit that simply believe in him and obey in the best way they know how, who are we to say they will split the pit. Are we so vindictive that we would want good people that believe in Jesus and his giving himself on the cross for mankind and are living the best they know how to split the pit. There are so many others that don't know Christ at all that we should be trying to get the word out to and should be happy of the ones that are in other churches.

[shag]

Several years ago, my pastor (we are upci) spent a couple days with some other pastors from the assembly of God seminary an hour away from us. After spending time in some smash face prayer meetings with them where the Holy Ghost moved in a powerful way, he came out of that and speaking about it, he referred to them as brothers in Christ. He was moved by their sincerity and the way the Holyghost moved on them during their prayer meetings.


Now, years later, I’m not sure how he thinks about that. I believe maybe he has forgotten...not sure.
He is sort of left in a quandry one might say.


Everyone’s different interpretation of Scripture absolutely can NOT be right, but to lump genuine Christian disciples that love our Saviour, with those that want nothing to do w Christ or the Bible...

One must be born again, is without question.

[shag]

What do you guys believe happens to those that are not mentally capable of responding to the gospel, are there names found in the book of life, or not?

Are all babies that die, (be it abortion or just death at a very young age) found in the book of life, or not? (While I believe that pre-Destiination teaches that God knowing what the babies would become like a serial killer or whatever, therefore they can be cast into the lake of fire, I would disagree with that based on Matt. 18:4-11)

Those that are not found in the book of life, are cast into the lake of fire, according to scripture.

I wonder what Gods way of dealing w the mentally handicapped?

[coksiw]

What do you guys believe happens to those that are not mentally capable of responding to the gospel, are there names found in the book of life, or not?

Are all babies that die, (be it abortion or just death at a very young age) found in the book of life, or not?

Those that are not, are cast into the lake of fire, according to scripture.

I wonder what Gods way of dealing w the 2 above examples?
Is it possible to know?


Regarding Babies:

Children can't be imputed with evil doings until the reach certain maturity:

[1Ki 14:12-13 NKJV] 12 "Arise therefore, go to your own house. When your feet enter the city, the child shall die. 13 "And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he is the only one of Jeroboam who shall come to the grave, because in him there is found something good toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.

[Isa 7:16 NKJV] 16 "For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.


People will be judged according to their works, not their nature.

[Rev 20:12 NKJV] 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

The only way you are not to be judged for your sinful works is if you have been washed with the blood of the Lamb, and as result, you are in the Book of Life.

What evil doings can you attribute to a baby?

[TGBTG]

Regarding Babies:

Children can't be imputed with evil doings until the reach certain maturity:

[1Ki 14:12-13 NKJV] 12 "Arise therefore, go to your own house. When your feet enter the city, the child shall die. 13 "And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he is the only one of Jeroboam who shall come to the grave, because in him there is found something good toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.

[Isa 7:16 NKJV] 16 "For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.


People will be judged according to their works, not their nature.

[Rev 20:12 NKJV] 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

The only way you are not to be judged for your sinful works is if you have been washed with the blood of the Lamb, and as result, you are in the Book of Life.

What evil doings can you attribute to a baby?
Hmmm..so better to have an abortion (automatically goes to heaven) than to take the chance that the baby may end up growing up to reject the gospel and end up in the lake of fire??

[TGBTG]

Those who hear the gospel and reject it and those who have not heard the gospel are all under condemnation according to Romans.

Now, you may argue what the gospel is (oneness, trinity, etc), but that’s a different topic entirely

[shag]

Regarding children and their innocence:

Matt. 18:3-10

Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. 4 So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.

5 “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf[a] is welcoming me. 6 But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. 8 So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

10 “Beware that you don’t look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven [B]THEIR angels are always in the presence of my heavenly Father.[c]

[Esaias]

2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

[Esaias]

Titus 3:10-11 KJV
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; [11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

[Esaias]

1 John 2:3-5 KJV
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

[coksiw]

Hmmm..so better to have an abortion (automatically goes to heaven) than to take the chance that the baby may end up growing up to reject the gospel and end up in the lake of fire??

Well, with the same reasoning you can say this: the crime index among immigrants is much higher than on born citizens, therefore, let's kill all immigrants to reduce crime.

Do you get the point?

[Esaias]

2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Titus 3:10-11 KJV
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; [11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

1 John 2:3-5 KJV
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

And the point here is that Truth was delivered to man (via the church founded by Christ) but it was foretold that heresy and false teaching would creep in, in competition with the Truth. So therefore we would EXPECT there to be lots of false versions of Christianity with lots of people being deceived into thinking they have the Truth when in fact they do not.

So the fact there are lots of different versions of Christianity is not only not surprising, but in fact prophesied.

[shag]

Curious where you are at on How you see God dealing with babies and the mentally handicapped that have died Not mature enough to know or comprehend the gospel, regarding their names in the book of life, or instead they get the lake of fire, Esaias?

[diakonos]

Curious where you are at on How you see God dealing with babies and the mentally handicapped that have died Not mature enough to know or comprehend the gospel, regarding their names in the book of life, or instead they get the lake of fire, Esaias?

If memory is correct, he does not believe we are born with a sin nature. Therefore, those mentioned would not be lost.

But, he can and will answer for himself. :)

[TGBTG]

Well, with the same reasoning you can say this: the crime index among immigrants is much higher than on born citizens, therefore, let's kill all immigrants to reduce crime.

Do you get the point?

I don’t get your point

[coksiw]

I don’t get your point

You tried to counter my argument with reduction to absurd. I countered your reduction to absurd by showing it is absurd. You deduction is missing a premise: thou shalt not kill.

[TGBTG]

You tried to counter my argument with reduction to absurd. I countered your reduction to absurd by showing it is absurd. You deduction is missing a premise: thou shalt not kill.

I wasn’t countering yours or any argument. I was commenting on the notion of all babies automatically go to heaven. You obviously did not understand my intention.

If all babies automatically go to heaven, then logically, aborting a baby is better for the baby. Instead of the kid growing up and potentially rejecting the gospel and going to hell. Your analogy using criminals has no correlation to the notion I’m commenting about.

[coksiw]

I wasn’t countering yours or any argument. I was commenting on the notion of all babies automatically go to heaven. You obviously did not understand my intention.

If all babies automatically go to heaven, then logically, aborting a baby is better for the baby. Instead of the kid growing up and potentially rejecting the gospel and going to hell. Your analogy using criminals has no correlation to the notion I’m commenting about.

It is not an analogy but a similar reasoning of your aborting reasoning. Aborting is killing. Yes the baby soul is in good hands, but what it is left on earth is a count of murder, hands stained with blood, and a terrible wound on the people involved. When saved christians are persecuted and killed, yes, their souls are in good hands, but what is it left on earth? the pain of loss, the guilt of bloodshed, and a cry for justice.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Curious where you are at on How you see God dealing with babies and the mentally handicapped that have died Not mature enough to know or comprehend the gospel, regarding their names in the book of life, or instead they get the lake of fire, Esaias?


Bro, i've met a lot of babies and mentally handicapped in churches.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I have trouble lumping all the Bible believing Christian disciples that are doing their best as do we apostolic‘s, to understand the Scriptures, and obey the Scriptures, and love and serve God with all their heart....lumping them into the same category as those religions that are not attempting to be a disciple of Christ.
On the one hand we have many Christian disciples devoted to serving God and obeying him as best they can understand the Bible, and on the other hand others that don’t want anything to do with Christ or the Bible.

Doesn’t mean The disciple of Christ is accurate in their theology, but putting them in the same category as someone who wants nothing to do with Jesus Christ, I cannot do.

However, that doesn’t really matter, what matters is the valid question, does God?

Makes me think of Mark 9:38-41

Bro, Jesus said narrow is the way, meaning that the path is hard to navigate. The King James word best used to describe this is the English word "narrow". The Greek word is τεθλιμμένη which actually means constricting, crushing in a vise. But we are also told by Jesus that the doorway is strait, small, tiny little opening? How about a tiny little "closing" Accurate in their theology? My old dad had a point, if you guys aren't accurate than how in the world can you call it truth? God said don't add to His word or your cursed! That's pretty dead on. Revelation, don't add or He wipes you out of the book. He also throws in some curses on top of it. But He didn't want accuracy? The Spirit of Truth will lead you to some truth? Will lead you to some truth? Partial truth? Little truth? No, it says all truth! The valid question is this, is God like us. Does God allow people to make it up as they go along and then wink at man's ignorance? Well, the Bible says He no longer winks at man's ignorance because JESUS is here. You all got the truth, you all got the Holy Ghost to lead and guide you through the word. You pray to a living God, one who answers by fire. Listen, I'm not thinking if a baby, a butcher, a baker, or the candlestick maker is getting to heaven. I'm looking at the scriptures that some of you all seem to ignore. All because MeeMaw, was a Godly Catholic and prayed the rosary, her knees were all swole from her kneeling in prayer. You even heard her speak in tongues. Get this under your belt, and deal with it, strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which. leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. FEW, which means slightly, very little, tiny in size. Old grand daddy pap, he was old Church of God Pentecost, use to weep, pray blow snot bubbles with hot salty tears. Speak in tongues that would make Robert Tilton jealous, but the old boy didn't believe in water baptism in Jesus name. Matter of fact he thought those Jesus namers were in false doctrine. Aunt Bitty Jean, good solid Presbyterian, loved God, and loved God's little boy, and all of his 12 friends. She had the Bible memorized, could quote it better than Brother Johnny James in her sleep. But she was staunch TULIP and God Squad believer. Jesus tells Pilate that He was the witness of the Truth, that ONLY those of that Truth could hear His voice, which Pilate replies "Quid est veritas?"

I guess that old Latin phrase is on the table. So, what is Truth?

[Esaias]

Curious where you are at on How you see God dealing with babies and the mentally handicapped that have died Not mature enough to know or comprehend the gospel, regarding their names in the book of life, or instead they get the lake of fire, Esaias?

I honestly do not know of any Scripture that directly answers the question.

A few things to consider in studying for the answer:

1. If the resurrection is something coinciding with Judgment Day, so that resurrection is for the purpose of Judgment, AND children are not personally morally obligated (too young to be under moral obligation), then they are not proper subjects of Judgment. Which implies they may not be proper subjects of resurrection?

2. The Bible seems to indicate children are in some sense categorised along with their parents, and "borrow" moral condition or status from the parents: see 1 Cor 7:14

3. Moral innocence or neutrality is a state of being neither good or evil. Such do not deserve condemnation, but likewise upon what basis would they attain justification or eternal life?

4. Why doesn't Scripture directly address the question? Surely it would have been a question on people's minds back in Bible days? Or was it? Maybe our modern framework is not theirs, so we are in fact asking the wrong questions altogether? In other words, we ask because we do err not understanding the reality, whereas they did not ask because they understood the reality and if one DID ask they would be looked at sideways with a big "Huh? What in the world are you talking about?" type of response....?

[Esaias]

I honestly do not know of any Scripture that directly answers the question.

A few things to consider in studying for the answer:

1. If the resurrection is something coinciding with Judgment Day, so that resurrection is for the purpose of Judgment, AND children are not personally morally obligated (too young to be under moral obligation), then they are not proper subjects of Judgment. Which implies they may not be proper subjects of resurrection?

2. The Bible seems to indicate children are in some sense categorised along with their parents, and "borrow" moral condition or status from the parents: see 1 Cor 7:14

3. Moral innocence or neutrality is a state of being neither good or evil. Such do not deserve condemnation, but likewise upon what basis would they attain justification or eternal life?

4. Why doesn't Scripture directly address the question? Surely it would have been a question on people's minds back in Bible days? Or was it? Maybe our modern framework is not theirs, so we are in fact asking the wrong questions altogether? In other words, we ask because we do err not understanding the reality, whereas they did not ask because they understood the reality and if one DID ask they would be looked at sideways with a big "Huh? What in the world are you talking about?" type of response....?

Having said that, I think #2 above is the key to providing the answer.

[Esaias]

If memory is correct, he does not believe we are born with a sin nature. Therefore, those mentioned would not be lost.

But, he can and will answer for himself. :)

Well, that provides a simple straightforward and reasonable answer.

But I think it may be a bit more complicated than that.

I think our modern concepts of "saved vs lost" may be more or less out of alignment with the Biblical concepts of salvation and condemnation. We seem to have some 1500+ years of bad theology originating in the catholic church to wade through and correct. Layers and layers of bad theology, each affecting the others.

[Amanah]

Conditional immortality sheds more light on the topic.