Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker/The PTL Club Controversy

[Bro Flame]

Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker were pioneering televangelists in the 1980s. They were the hosts of THE PTL CLUB (standing for "Praise the Lord" or "People that Love"), and founded Heritage USA, a now discontinued Christian theme park located in Fort Mill, South Carolina.

Jim and Tammy came out of the Assemblies of God, but they presented a more charismatic, evangelical-type view of the Christian faith on their television program. One commentator said that the Bakkers "were against the old Pentecostal that was serious and dower," or words to that effect.

[Originalist]

Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker were pioneering televangelists in the 1980s. They were the hosts of THE PTL CLUB (standing for "Praise the Lord" or "People that Love"), and founded Heritage USA, a now discontinued Christian theme park located in Fort Mill, South Carolina.

Jim and Tammy came out of the Assemblies of God, but they presented a more charismatic, evangelical-type view of the Christian faith on their television program. One commentator said that the Bakkers "were against the old Pentecostal that was serious and dower," or words to that effect.

Again, the has nothing to do with the "charismatic movement" by definition. The Bakkers were liberal Pentecostals, by definition.

[diakonos]

I do recall one time Benny Hinn made a comment about charismatics to which Jan Crouch replied, “We are charismatic!” Followed by her famous fake laughter.
To which Benny Hinn responded, “I’m not getting into it.” Followed by fake laughter in a fake accent.

[coksiw]

I do recall one time Benny Hinn made a comment about charismatics to which Jan Crouch replied, “We are charismatic!” Followed by her famous fake laughter.
To which Benny Hinn responded, “I’m not getting into it.” Followed by fake laughter in a fake accent.

Speaking about him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn

Regarding the "healings"

In November 2004, the CBC Television show The Fifth Estate did a special titled "Do You Believe in Miracles" on the apparent transgressions committed by Benny Hinn's ministry.[1]

With the aid of hidden cameras and crusade witnesses, the producers of the show demonstrated Hinn's apparent misappropriation of funds, his fabrication of the truth, and the way in which his staff chose crusade audience members to come on stage to proclaim their miracle healings.[1] In particular, the investigation highlighted the fact that the most desperate miracle seekers who attend a Hinn crusade—the quadriplegics, the brain-damaged, virtually anyone with a visibly obvious physical condition—are never allowed up on stage; those who attempt to get in the line of possible healings are intercepted and directed to return to their seats.


Regarding the Prosperity Gospel:
In 2017, pastor Costi Hinn, a nephew of Benny Hinn, came forward with a testimony of his time spent in Benny Hinn's ministry, and what made him leave.[48][49] In the testimony, Costi Hinn described the expensive cars and lavish houses that he and his family members owned, and the luxury that surrounded their travel. Costi Hinn criticized the prosperity gospel and teachings of his uncle, writing among other things that healings only seemed to work on the "crusades", where music created an atmosphere, and that many of their prophecies contradicted the Bible.[48] He has since written a book titled God, Greed, and the (Prosperity) Gospel on the topic.[50] In the book, Costi Hinn calls the prosperity gospel "damning and abusive", exploitative of the poor and vulnerable, and "arguably the most hateful and abusive kind of false teaching plaguing the church today".[51]

In September 2019, he said that Benny Hinn no longer believed in prosperity theology, and decided to stop teaching it.[52]


For those that believe in tithing, could you please explain here why the modern tithing doctrine in Apostolic churches is not prosperity doctrine? When tithing teacher quote of Mal 3:8 in front of the congregation, they are sending a message. The message is that if you don't tithe you will be cursed with a curse, and you are robbing God, and that if you tithe, God will "open the windows of heaven and pouring out for you a blessing".
Basically, you will be cursed if you fail to obey the tithing commandment, and you will be blessed abundantly on the merits of the obedience to the commandment.
What is the difference between the prosperity doctrine and that teaching? I would love to know, so I don't think of those apostolic tithing teachers as hypocrites.

[Tithesmeister]

Speaking about him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn

Regarding the "healings"




Regarding the Prosperity Gospel:


For those that believe in tithing, could you please explain here why the modern tithing doctrine in Apostolic churches is not prosperity doctrine? When tithing teacher quote of Mal 3:8 in front of the congregation, they are sending a message. The message is that if you don't tithe you will be cursed with a curse, and you are robbing God, and that if you tithe, God will "open the windows of heaven and pouring out for you a blessing".
Basically, you will be cursed if you fail to obey the tithing commandment, and you will be blessed abundantly on the merits of the obedience to the commandment.
What is the difference between the prosperity doctrine and that teaching? I would love to know, so I don't think of those apostolic tithing teachers as hypocrites.

Well . . .

I believe in tithing. Maybe I should take a crack at this post.

I believe in tithing as it is described in the Bible. The modern tithing doctrine is nothing more or less than a network of lies. To be clear, tithing doctrine as taught in UPCI, WPF, AOG, and many other divisions of Christianity is not just a lie, but it is a network of many lies. It is not mere hypocrisy, it is the very spawn of Satan, the father of all lies.

But many pastors believe that they are going to get a pass.

Why?

Because they believe God is on their side. As if God okays the sin of lying if it is done on His behalf. If they believed God is nearly as powerful as they claim him to be, they would well understand that God doesn’t need them to lie about the tithe.

The truth of the matter is that THEY are the ones who are cashing the tithe checks, in many instances.

How many times have we heard concerning tithing, to “give as unto the Lord”? Matthew twenty five is very specific about how to give as unto the Lord, and neither the church or the pastor rated so much as a mention in the instructions of Jesus as to how to give as unto the Lord. How ironic!

So, why do they teach it? Because it works.

Is it a fraud? Absolutely

Is it a lie? No. It is many lies.

Where do ALL liars go?

Rev.21

[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Al liars go the same place as all idolaters, and murderers and whoremongers go, according to the Bible.


I’m not doing pastors any favors by pretending that they are going to heaven, while lying about tithes. They may go to hell, but it won’t be because I didn’t speak up.


If you are bothered by this post, you should be. If you refuse to ask your pastor to defend this doctrine with scripture? You should be ashamed.

I would like to extend a challenge to the heads of the UPCI, the WPF, or any other church leadership to debate me on this forum, using the scripture only as the authority. I think you’ll be surprised how few of them will take the invitation.

D.B. ? Are you there? Are you listening?

[Esaias]

Speaking about him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn

Regarding the "healings"




Regarding the Prosperity Gospel:


For those that believe in tithing, could you please explain here why the modern tithing doctrine in Apostolic churches is not prosperity doctrine? When tithing teacher quote of Mal 3:8 in front of the congregation, they are sending a message. The message is that if you don't tithe you will be cursed with a curse, and you are robbing God, and that if you tithe, God will "open the windows of heaven and pouring out for you a blessing".
Basically, you will be cursed if you fail to obey the tithing commandment, and you will be blessed abundantly on the merits of the obedience to the commandment.
What is the difference between the prosperity doctrine and that teaching? I would love to know, so I don't think of those apostolic tithing teachers as hypocrites.

Prosperity doctrine is new age "Think And Grow Rich" teaching, from Ken Hagin and his predecessor (can't recall his name at the moment). It has to do with "Name It And Claim It", and the "Sow A Seed Of Faith In My Ministry And You'll Get A Return of 30, 60, or 100 Fold Because God Will Not Keep Himself In Debt". Tithing is part of the prosperity message, too. Meaning the Tithe system is one part among many that make up the Prosperity system.

So one can teach tithing but not be a prosperity teacher. But lately prosperity teaching has been making inroads among tithe teaching churches. Used to be taught as a duty, now as an investment opportunity.

[coksiw]

Not all prosperity Gospels are about tithing, but I see that it is very hard for a modern tithing teacher to not error in the prosperity Gospel doctrine. Promised prosperity on the merits of obedience to a commandment being taught as coming from God.

How funny, the elder on social security hardly making it, it is asked in the modern tithing church to give a portion that means a lot for people at that level of poverty, and they promise a financial "blessing" from God. Contrast that with the early NT church, where the poor and the elderly were the recipients of the gifts.

Some have gone so far to say that if you are poor as an elder is because you "robbed" God when you were younger. How people can get away with this? How can they escape without consequences from this open and continue abuse of the trust of the saints on them as teachers to suck money inappropriately from them?

The people of God are like asleep or something. I guess it will be a thing until the day they can't afford it anymore.

[coksiw]

The fake healing thing from Beny Hinn is sickening as well. False prophets. It amazes me how many people follow that stuff and don't see something "wrong" with it

[Tithesmeister]

The fake healing thing from Beny Hinn is sickening as well. False prophets. It amazes me how many people follow that stuff and don't see something "wrong" with it

Brother, let’s be real. Benny Hinn’s fraud is chicken feed in the grand scheme of the tithe heresy.

I’ll go even further. Bernie Madoff is a lightweight when compared to the con game that is the typical modern day tithe doctrine. Catholics even are generally more truthful than Apostolics when it comes to tithe.

I’m not going to paint with a broad brush and say it’s all apostolics, but it seems that the more conservative apostolics are, the more they beat the false doctrine of the tithes drum.

Speaking of which: I truly regret that I finally cornered SE about having the tithe debate. Is it a coincidence that when he realized that he couldn’t support his doctrine with scripture, he gaslighted us? I don’t think so!

It’s really sad. He seemingly would rather quit the forum than admit his doctrine is contrary to scripture in so many ways.

I hope he’s doing well. I also hope he’s repented from teaching false doctrine. My experience is that they generally just slink away when the going gets tough.

They are so invested in the false doctrine of tithing that they very seldom will change. Yet they profess to love truth. They may love truth until it interferes with their paycheck. They show their true colors when the scripture is expounded on. They lose interest.

That’s been my experience anyway. And it’s been remarkably consistent.

I’m still waiting on the UPCI general superintendent to take my challenge. He’s a gifted debater. Maybe we should put it to a vote.

How many believe that anyone in national leadership of the WPF or UPCI will take my challenge?

I won’t be holding my breath.

[coksiw]

Brother, let’s be real. Benny Hinn’s fraud is chicken feed in the grand scheme of the tithe heresy.

I’ll go even further. Bernie Madoff is a lightweight when compared to the con game that is the typical modern day tithe doctrine. Catholics even are generally more truthful than Apostolics when it comes to tithe.

I’m not going to paint with a broad brush and say it’s all apostolics, but it seems that the more conservative apostolics are, the more they beat the false doctrine of the tithes drum.

Speaking of which: I truly regret that I finally cornered SE about having the tithe debate. Is it a coincidence that when he realized that he couldn’t support his doctrine with scripture, he gaslighted us? I don’t think so!

It’s really sad. He seemingly would rather quit the forum than admit his doctrine is contrary to scripture in so many ways.

I hope he’s doing well. I also hope he’s repented from teaching false doctrine. My experience is that they generally just slink away when the going gets tough.

They are so invested in the false doctrine of tithing that they very seldom will change. Yet they profess to love truth. They may love truth until it interferes with their paycheck. They show their true colors when the scripture is expounded on. They lose interest.

That’s been my experience anyway. And it’s been remarkably consistent.

I’m still waiting on the UPCI general superintendent to take my challenge. He’s a gifted debater. Maybe we should put it to a vote.

How many believe that anyone in national leadership of the WPF or UPCI will take my challenge?

I won’t be holding my breath.


Who is SE? Did you contact Bernard?


BTW, he wrote a book recently called "To the end of the Earth".
He said in the book, in one of his visits to Communist Russia: "“The Yugoslav Apostolics didn’t believe in ties (because they were excessive ornamentation) or tithes (because there was no explicit New Testament command).”.

I'm so surprised that him being so educated in History of the Church, and exposed to the opposite argument, he hasn't changed his stance. I think it is just honestly the pressure from the UPCI. Tithing is part of the Articles of faith, so a challenge to that doctrine is a sure booting out from the UPCI fellowship.

Bernard also says in his History of Doctrine book:

“William Penn, an important Quaker leader, founded the colony of Pennsylvania (the name means “Penn’s Woods”) as a refuge for Quakers and other groups. In The Rise and Progress of the People Called Quakers, he identified some of the key characteristics of the Quakers as loving one another, loving enemies, refusing to fight, speaking truth with no oaths, refusing to pay tithes to support the state church, not respecting persons, and using plain speech. He emphasized the need of conversion, regeneration, and holiness.”

I read some of papers myself. No, it was not that they refused to pay tithe to support the state church, they exposed it as a unbiblical and false doctrine, so it wasn't just about the state church, but about the entire concept.

[coksiw]

I think I've been posting in the wrong thread. There is another thread about Charismatics: "The Charismatic-Apostolic Relationship".

[Jito463]

Well . . .

I believe in tithing. Maybe I should take a crack at this post.

I believe in tithing as it is described in the Bible. The modern tithing doctrine is nothing more or less than a network of lies. To be clear, tithing doctrine as taught in UPCI, WPF, AOG, and many other divisions of Christianity is not just a lie, but it is a network of many lies. It is not mere hypocrisy, it is the very spawn of Satan, the father of all lies.

But many pastors believe that they are going to get a pass.

Why?

Because they believe God is on their side. As if God okays the sin of lying if it is done on His behalf. If they believed God is nearly as powerful as they claim him to be, they would well understand that God doesn’t need them to lie about the tithe.

The truth of the matter is that THEY are the ones who are cashing the tithe checks, in many instances.

How many times have we heard concerning tithing, to “give as unto the Lord”? Matthew twenty five is very specific about how to give as unto the Lord, and neither the church or the pastor rated so much as a mention in the instructions of Jesus as to how to give as unto the Lord. How ironic!

So, why do they teach it? Because it works.

Is it a fraud? Absolutely

Is it a lie? No. It is many lies.

Where do ALL liars go?

Rev.21

[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Al liars go the same place as all idolaters, and murderers and whoremongers go, according to the Bible.


I’m not doing pastors any favors by pretending that they are going to heaven, while lying about tithes. They may go to hell, but it won’t be because I didn’t speak up.


If you are bothered by this post, you should be. If you refuse to ask your pastor to defend this doctrine with scripture? You should be ashamed.

I would like to extend a challenge to the heads of the UPCI, the WPF, or any other church leadership to debate me on this forum, using the scripture only as the authority. I think you’ll be surprised how few of them will take the invitation.

D.B. ? Are you there? Are you listening?

I love how you throw all these accusations of lying and fraud around, without providing a shred of evidence to back up your claim. Well, I guess that's enough for me, you've convinced me.

Or, you know, maybe not. :foottap

[Nicodemus1968]

I love how you throw all these accusations of lying and fraud around, without providing a shred of evidence to back up your claim. Well, I guess that's enough for me, you've convinced me.

Or, you know, maybe not. :foottap

We take the scriptures on hell so loosely.

I've heard it said, this preacher is going to hell because he preaches the rapture. What if those that believe in fulfilled eschatology are right, man you'll have a lot of ministers in hell for preaching a doctrine of man. Then on the other hand how those that believe in the Coming of the Lord as a futuristic event. All those that preached against it, my goodness they're going to be in the hot seat.

It's not about lies, adultery, murder, or hatred. Those that are separated from Jesus for their eternal lifetime will be because they had not a relationship with him. People work in sin because they know not God.

[Monterrey]

Brother, let’s be real. Benny Hinn’s fraud is chicken feed in the grand scheme of the tithe heresy.

I’ll go even further. Bernie Madoff is a lightweight when compared to the con game that is the typical modern day tithe doctrine. Catholics even are generally more truthful than Apostolics when it comes to tithe.

I’m not going to paint with a broad brush and say it’s all apostolics, but it seems that the more conservative apostolics are, the more they beat the false doctrine of the tithes drum.

Speaking of which: I truly regret that I finally cornered SE about having the tithe debate. Is it a coincidence that when he realized that he couldn’t support his doctrine with scripture, he gaslighted us? I don’t think so!

It’s really sad. He seemingly would rather quit the forum than admit his doctrine is contrary to scripture in so many ways.

I hope he’s doing well. I also hope he’s repented from teaching false doctrine. My experience is that they generally just slink away when the going gets tough.

They are so invested in the false doctrine of tithing that they very seldom will change. Yet they profess to love truth. They may love truth until it interferes with their paycheck. They show their true colors when the scripture is expounded on. They lose interest.

That’s been my experience anyway. And it’s been remarkably consistent.

I’m still waiting on the UPCI general superintendent to take my challenge. He’s a gifted debater. Maybe we should put it to a vote.

How many believe that anyone in national leadership of the WPF or UPCI will take my challenge?

I won’t be holding my breath.

Sigh.

Went to church this AM and received the tithe and offering envelopes. ..

Man it's rough being a pastor.

Taught on prosperity as I drove up in my Ford King Ranch, diesel, with gooseneck horse trailer to haul my horses...

Just put a well on the five acres I bought, gotta have somewhere to put my horses.

Thought about driving my restored 76 vette, or the 1964 1/2 Mustang. .. chose the King Ranch instead.

Hope I have enough bank bags to haul all the loot...

[Monterrey]

Hehehehe

[Tithesmeister]

Who is SE?
Steve Epley is a conservative pastor who is or was a member here on the forum. As a member of the ultra conservative crowd he loves the tithe doctrine. He was very much loved by basically everyone here. He used phrases like “lost as two boys kissing” and had a reputation of a man who didn’t dodge the tough questions. Last I heard he was pastoring in Racine MO. He’s an old timer. He’s short of stature and even shorter on scripture to support his view of tithing. It seems to me that he was shocked at his own lack of ability to support the tithe doctrine with scripture. I think he gave up and left, rather than face the humiliation of being unable to bring scriptural evidence of what he believed.

I miss him and hope he is well.


Did you contact Bernard?

No. I haven’t contacted Brother Bernard. I’m reasonably sure he’s aware of the conversation about tithes. I’m also pretty sure he wouldn’t welcome a debate on it. It’s a discussion he can’t win, and I think he knows it.

Why can’t he win? Because he has no scripture to support the tithe position that UPCI has taken. It’s simply not there.

[Tithesmeister]

I love how you throw all these accusations of lying and fraud around, without providing a shred of evidence to back up your claim. Well, I guess that's enough for me, you've convinced me.

Or, you know, maybe not. :foottap

Well, at least we have some common ground. We both believe in evidence. I commend you brother for demanding evidence (scripture that is in the correct context) that supports my position. I’m willing and able to provide it. There is no shortage.

Just a thought.

Did you require any evidence from the other side of the debate?

Tell me what you need evidence for and I will be happy to provide it.

Meanwhile, please provide evidence that the tithe was ever rendered in money once in the entire Bible. I don’t believe you can.

[Tithesmeister]

We take the scriptures on hell so loosely.

I've heard it said, this preacher is going to hell because he preaches the rapture. What if those that believe in fulfilled eschatology are right, man you'll have a lot of ministers in hell for preaching a doctrine of man. Then on the other hand how those that believe in the Coming of the Lord as a futuristic event. All those that preached against it, my goodness they're going to be in the hot seat.

It's not about lies, adultery, murder, or hatred. Those that are separated from Jesus for their eternal lifetime will be because they had not a relationship with him. People work in sin because they know not God.

Brother the scripture I quoted IS about lies, adultery and murder. It literally is about those things.

[Nicodemus1968]

Sigh.

Went to church this AM and received the tithe and offering envelopes. ..

Man it's rough being a pastor.

Taught on prosperity as I drove up in my Ford King Ranch, diesel, with gooseneck horse trailer to haul my horses...

Just put a well on the five acres I bought, gotta have somewhere to put my horses.

Thought about driving my restored 76 vette, or the 1964 1/2 Mustang. .. chose the King Ranch instead.

Hope I have enough bank bags to haul all the loot...

:heeheehee

[coksiw]

Steve Epley is a conservative pastor who is or was a member here on the forum. As a member of the ultra conservative crowd he loves the tithe doctrine. He was very much loved by basically everyone here. He used phrases like “lost as two boys kissing” and had a reputation of a man who didn’t dodge the tough questions. Last I heard he was pastoring in Racine MO. He’s an old timer. He’s short of stature and even shorter on scripture to support his view of tithing. It seems to me that he was shocked at his own lack of ability to support the tithe doctrine with scripture. I think he gave up and left, rather than face the humiliation of being unable to bring scriptural evidence of what he believed.

I miss him and hope he is well.

No. I haven’t contacted Brother Bernard. I’m reasonably sure he’s aware of the conversation about tithes. I’m also pretty sure he wouldn’t welcome a debate on it. It’s a discussion he can’t win, and I think he knows it.

Why can’t he win? Because he has no scripture to support the tithe position that UPCI has taken. It’s simply not there.


Oh Steve Epley. He pastors an independent apostolic church. I wonder what they believe that makes the church independent.

[Tithesmeister]

Sigh.

Went to church this AM and received the tithe and offering envelopes. ..

Man it's rough being a pastor.

Taught on prosperity as I drove up in my Ford King Ranch, diesel, with gooseneck horse trailer to haul my horses...

Just put a well on the five acres I bought, gotta have somewhere to put my horses.

Thought about driving my restored 76 vette, or the 1964 1/2 Mustang. .. chose the King Ranch instead.

Hope I have enough bank bags to haul all the loot...

Five acres?

For your horses?

You obviously must not have very many horses. Two? Miniature ponies to carry a miniature man? I keep chickens on more land than that. It sounds like you need an offering.

[Tithesmeister]

Hehehe.

[Tithesmeister]

Oh Steve Epley. He pastors an independent apostolic church. I wonder what they believe that makes the church independent.

Invite him back on here and maybe he’ll tell it. I believe he was once AMF. They believed strongly in not sharing the tithe with a certain organization.

[Tithesmeister]

Invite him back on here and maybe he’ll tell it. I believe he was once AMF. They believed strongly in not sharing the tithe with a certain organization.
Heres a little back and forth that I had with Steve Epley. He didn’t seem to believe in a preacher having to be bothered with supporting his position with scripture. He’s a nice guy though. What little there is of him.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
What part of NOT with gold do you not understand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
1Tim. 2:9 is clearer. Not with gold.
Brother Epley, first of all thanks for responding. Let’s dig into this a little deeper. Perhaps we can come to agreement, even if we should agree to disagree. I’ll try to be respectful about it.

First of all, these passages are very similar. They (in my opinion at least) are saying the same thing. I earlier quoted Peter, whose ministry was primarily to the Jews and you quoted Paul whose ministry was primarily to the Gentiles.

Both passages are allegorical in nature. They should not be taken literally. The proof of this is something that we have already touched on when i asked if you preached against wearing apparel as well. If we were to interpret this passage literally this would be the case. I think we agree that these passages are not literal but allegorical in nature. I believe that you are mixing the two, (allegorical and literal) interpretations. I believe you are in error when you do so.

You believe that Paul’s version is clearer. I believe Peter’s version is. One thing is sure, neither says that wearing jewelry is a sin.

An allegory is a story wherein something literal represents something else. In this case the apparel that would be clothing for our natural bodies, represents our hearts. What both Peter and Paul are saying is that man looks on the outer appearance but God looks on the heart. It is an allegory. Man looks on the fine clothes, the gold and the broided hair but God looks at the meek and quiet spirit (Peter) or the shamefacedness and sobriety (Paul). Further evidence that Paul is speaking allegorically is when he refers to women being clothed in good works.

Continued
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
#56 Report Post
Old 02-09-2019, 08:11 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
Registered Member



Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,301
Re: Hair, sleeves, pantsuits, jewelry, and makeup
Continued

The question is, should we also interpret this literally? Would we be in error to do so. I believe we would. However the evidence may be considered inconclusive at this point. So perhaps we should look for other sources. There are two more that I can think of. One is allegorical and the other literal. They may lend a little more color to the picture.

Ezek.16

[1] Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[2] Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
[3] And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
[4] And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
[5] None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
[6] And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
[7] I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
[8] Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
[9] Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.
[10] I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
[11] I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
[12] And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
[13] Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

This is another allegorical story where Israel is the woman that God is in covenant with. It is a beautiful story that obviously is not in any way meant to be taken literally. Some may consider it a type of the church and Jesus even.

In the context of jewelry being sin, notice that God is pretty much blinging out his bride with jewelry and fine apparel. Now we know that God is without sin and while this is obviously an allegory, wouldn’t it be odd for God to use sinful jewelry to make a point even? These are the words of God as recorded in Ezekiel. It is evident to me that God has no problem with jewelry.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message

[Monterrey]

Just a little tip my friend Tithe miester...

Please refrain from naming names, like Steve E or others.

Just my .02

[Tithesmeister]

Just a little tip my friend Tithe miester...

Please refrain from naming names, like Steve E or others.

Just my .02

Just a tip brother.

Steve Epley is his screen name.

You’re welcome.

[diakonos]

Just a little tip my friend Tithe miester...

Please refrain from naming names, like Steve E or others.

Just my .02

Just a tip brother.

Steve Epley is his screen name.

You’re welcome.

He got you there :lol

[Jito463]

Well, at least we have some common ground. We both believe in evidence. I commend you brother for demanding evidence (scripture that is in the correct context) that supports my position. I’m willing and able to provide it. There is no shortage.

Just a thought.

Did you require any evidence from the other side of the debate?

Tell me what you need evidence for and I will be happy to provide it.

Meanwhile, please provide evidence that the tithe was ever rendered in money once in the entire Bible. I don’t believe you can.

No, no, no. You misunderstand me completely. You didn't say they were wrong, you explicitly called every one of them lying fraudsters. I want evidence that they're lying fraudsters.

I'll wait. :foottap

[diakonos]

No, no, no. You misunderstand me completely. You didn't say they were wrong, you explicitly called every one of them lying fraudsters. I want evidence that they're lying fraudsters.

I'll wait. :foottap

The difference being intent.

[Nicodemus1968]

Heres a little back and forth that I had with Steve Epley. He didn’t seem to believe in a preacher having to be bothered with supporting his position with scripture. He’s a nice guy though. What little there is of him.

This is another allegorical story where Israel is the woman that God is in covenant with. It is a beautiful story that obviously is not in any way meant to be taken literally. Some may consider it a type of the church and Jesus even.

In the context of jewelry being sin, notice that God is pretty much blinging out his bride with jewelry and fine apparel. Now we know that God is without sin and while this is obviously an allegory, wouldn’t it be odd for God to use sinful jewelry to make a point even? These are the words of God as recorded in Ezekiel. It is evident to me that God has no problem with jewelry.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message

Lol!

Maybe in our generation well see Pastors and Elders allowing piercing in the ears and nose on the platform preaching. I mean why not, they’re letting down the whole beard and mustache “stance”.

I remember an elder prophesying over a church that in the matter of ten years that church would allow mixed swimming. If I remember correctly, they allowed for men and women, boys and girls to swim together in swimming suits. After it was going on, they were going through some tapes, and came across a certain tape and the Pastor I believed played it. Well, it was that man of God prophesying over the church concerning the mixed swimming.... Whoops

Like Murray Burr quoted in one of his many books, “when you stand for nothing, you’ll fall for anything.”

[Esaias]

I mean why not, they’re letting down the whole beard and mustache “stance”.



Like when a lot of those Nazarene Holiness churches let down on the whole speaking in tongues "stance"!

History repeats itself I guess. When will we ever learn?

[Bro Flame]

Again, the has nothing to do with the "charismatic movement" by definition. The Bakkers were liberal Pentecostals, by definition.
Where is this reasoning drawn from? I'm not saying you're wrong, but just asking for clarification.

There was a documentary I watched once that said Jim and Tammy were "Pentecostalism Goes to Vegas", but I thought I heard the Bakkers themselves say somewhere that they were charismatic.

Might be dreaming the latter.

[coksiw]

Lol!

Maybe in our generation well see Pastors and Elders allowing piercing in the ears and nose on the platform preaching. I mean why not, they’re letting down the whole beard and mustache “stance”.

I remember an elder prophesying over a church that in the matter of ten years that church would allow mixed swimming. If I remember correctly, they allowed for men and women, boys and girls to swim together in swimming suits. After it was going on, they were going through some tapes, and came across a certain tape and the Pastor I believed played it. Well, it was that man of God prophesying over the church concerning the mixed swimming.... Whoops

Like Murray Burr quoted in one of his many books, “when you stand for nothing, you’ll fall for anything.”

Letting go some “stance” doesn’t mean leaving holiness. I am glad some preachers left the Trinity stance that was the “ol’ time religion” for them for some many years.

The Bible is older than all of them together, and it didn’t have a stance on facial hair.

Some are romanticizing heritage over truth. Isn’t that one of the issues Pharisees had? Wasn’t it all about glory of men, to be recognized and admired by the peers?

[diakonos]

Maybe in our generation well see Pastors and Elders allowing piercing in the ears and nose on the platform preaching. I mean why not, they’re letting down the whole beard and mustache “stance”.

Whaat?

[Nicodemus1968]

Letting go some “stance” doesn’t mean leaving holiness. I am glad some preachers left the Trinity stance that was the “ol’ time religion” for them for some many years.

The Bible is older than all of them together, and it didn’t have a stance on facial hair.

Some are romanticizing heritage over truth. Isn’t that one of the issues Pharisees had? Wasn’t it all about glory of men, to be recognized and admired by the peers?

As people let go of convictions it just takes time and they let go of more and more.

Just give it time.

[Nicodemus1968]

Whaat?

You dont believe that?

Lol!

Certain organizations are tolerating men with beards and mustaches, well if men can wear beards why not allow the women to paint their faces?

[diakonos]

You dont believe that?

Lol!

Certain organizations are tolerating men with beards and mustaches, well if men can wear beards why not allow the women to paint their faces?

Scriptural prohibition of either one? I’ll wait.

[Esaias]

As people let go of convictions it just takes time and they let go of more and more.

Just give it time.

Yep. As people let go of the Council of Trent, Infallibility of the Pope, Magisterium, etc, why just a couple centuries later we have people denying the trinity, denying Holy Tradition, removing books out of the Bible, denying infant baptism...

Next thing you know they'll have stringed instruments in church, women preachers, and who knows what else. It all just leads to the entire decay of society altogether.

Everybody should have kept their convictions and never left Mother Rome to begin with.

[jediwill83]

Yep. As people let go of the Council of Trent, Infallibility of the Pope, Magisterium, etc, why just a couple centuries later we have people denying the trinity, denying Holy Tradition, removing books out of the Bible, denying infant baptism...

Next thing you know they'll have stringed instruments in church, women preachers, and who knows what else. It all just leads to the entire decay of society altogether.

Everybody should have kept their convictions and never left Mother Rome to begin with.


Those hooligans!

[Nicodemus1968]

Scriptural prohibition of either one? I’ll wait.

Why do I have to give you scripture that says no beard? Why does a women want a scripture that specifically says no split up to your rear end? Why does a Pastor need a scripture that tell him not to have a beer every once in a while?

There is an independent church Apostolic none the less. That was fully supporting the legalization of Marijuana, the Pastor included. One of the nurses in the church was an advocate for using it (Medically). Give them specific bible scripture that they shouldn't be supporting that. You cant, why? Because they want to say. Thou Shalt not smoke Marijuana recreational or Medical.

So, I cannot give you scripture that says no beard, mustache, or Mohawk.

[jediwill83]

Why do I have to give you scripture that says no beard? Why does a women want a scripture that specifically says no split up to your rear end? Why does a Pastor need a scripture that tell him not to have a beer every once in a while?

There is an independent church Apostolic none the less. That was fully supporting the legalization of Marijuana, the Pastor included. One of the nurses in the church was an advocate for using it (Medically). Give them specific bible scripture that they shouldn't be supporting that. You cant, why? Because they want to say. Thou Shalt not smoke Marijuana recreational or Medical.

So, I cannot give you scripture that says no beard, mustache, or Mohawk.


Ill bet their fellowship dinners after service are amazing.

[Esaias]

Why do I have to give you scripture that says no beard? Why does a women want a scripture that specifically says no split up to your rear end? Why does a Pastor need a scripture that tell him not to have a beer every once in a while?

There is an independent church Apostolic none the less. That was fully supporting the legalization of Marijuana, the Pastor included. One of the nurses in the church was an advocate for using it (Medically). Give them specific bible scripture that they shouldn't be supporting that. You cant, why? Because they want to say. Thou Shalt not smoke Marijuana recreational or Medical.

So, I cannot give you scripture that says no beard, mustache, or Mohawk.

In other words, your religion isn't Bible religion, it's Nicodemus1968 religion.

[Tithesmeister]

No, no, no. You misunderstand me completely. You didn't say they were wrong, you explicitly called every one of them lying fraudsters. I want evidence that they're lying fraudsters.

I'll wait. :foottap

Where did I say that every one of them was lying fraudsters? I don’t remember saying that.

The difference being intent.

Hmmm. Maybe.

[Nicodemus1968]

In other words, your religion isn't Bible religion, it's Nicodemus1968 religion.

Not at all.

In these words, my religion isn’t the letter only.

Psalm 32:8 KJVS
[8] I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

Go and learn.

[Tithesmeister]

In other words, your religion isn't Bible religion, it's Nicodemus1968 religion.

It isn’t Bible religion. It seems to be Murray Burr religion, or somebody else depending on the standard.

Seriously. I have noticed that if some Brother So and so says something, it is believed stronger than if you give chapter and verse. Brother Nicodemus has a severe case of preacher religion. It appears to be chronic.

For instance, if I quoted chapter and verse for piercing the ear, and it was straight from God? He’d find a way to discredit the Bible.

Exodus 21

[5] And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
[6] Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Now . . .

Watch what happens.

Edit: Oh, I’m sorry. It has already happened. See above.

[Nicodemus1968]

Ill bet their fellowship dinners after service are amazing.

True story:

A family was at a house witnessing to another family. Well the husband they were witnessing to, had severe back pain. The young boy to the church family wondered in the kitchen and decided to grab a chocolate bar from the kitchen table. Not realizing it was filled with marijuana, well needless to say that herb kicked in after just a few moments. The family called the nurse in the church and asked what should they do, she said, “nothing, it’ll probably do him good!”

I’m at that place where nothing surprises me anymore.

[Nicodemus1968]

It isn’t Bible religion. It seems to be Murray Burr religion, or somebody else depending on the standard.

Seriously. I have noticed that if some Brother So and so says something, it is believed stronger than if you give chapter and verse. Brother Nicodemus has a severe case of preacher religion. It appears to be chronic.

For instance, if I quoted chapter and verse for piercing the ear, and it was straight from God? He’d find a way to discredit the Bible.

Exodus 21

[5] And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
[6] Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Now . . .

Watch what happens.

Edit: Oh, I’m sorry. It has already happened. See above.

Lol

[jediwill83]

True story:

A family was at a house witnessing to another family. Well the husband they were witnessing to, had severe back pain. The young boy to the church family wondered in the kitchen and decided to grab a chocolate bar from the kitchen table. Not realizing it was filled with marijuana, well needless to say that herb kicked in after just a few moments. The family called the nurse in the church and asked what should they do, she said, “nothing, it’ll probably do him good!”

I’m at that place where nothing surprises me anymore.


Yep that devils lettuce that God created. 🤣

[Nicodemus1968]

2 Corinthians 3:6 KJVS
[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Men will focus on just the written word and not the spirit. Thats why, you’ll have a saint condemn a preacher to hell for collecting tithe, yet will be happy for his Pastor that believes its ok to have a corona beer every now and again.

They look for what the letter says to the “T”, yet they cannot hear nor see what the spirit says.

Maybe Murray Burr said that....... :heeheehee

[jediwill83]

2 Corinthians 3:6 KJVS
[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Men will focus on just the written word and not the spirit. Thats why, you’ll have a saint condemn a preacher to hell for collecting tithe, yet will be happy for his Pastor that believes its ok to have a corona beer every now and again.

They look for what the letter says to the “T”, yet they cannot hear nor see what the spirit says.

Maybe Murray Burr said that....... :heeheehee


Something something wedding at Cana...something something feasts where wine was mandatory...something something redeem your tithe for money and buy whatever your heart desires even strong drink...

[Tithesmeister]

Something something wedding at Cana...something something feasts where wine was mandatory...something something redeem your tithe for money and buy whatever your heart desires even strong drink...

I have heard many times at weddings, it being said that Jesus performed His first miracle at a wedding. But I don’t believe I’ve ever heard what that miracle entailed. It’s almost as if preachers are ashamed of the miracle itself.

[Tithesmeister]

2 Corinthians 3:6 KJVS
[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Men will focus on just the written word and not the spirit. Thats why, you’ll have a saint condemn a preacher to hell for collecting tithe, yet will be happy for his Pastor that believes its ok to have a corona beer every now and again.

They look for what the letter says to the “T”, yet they cannot hear nor see what the spirit says.

Maybe Murray Burr said that....... :heeheehee

The hypocrisy of quoting scripture, for supporting your belief that you shouldn’t need scripture to support your doctrine.

The Pharisees don’t have anything on our own Brother Nicodemus 68.

When you preach a sermon?

Do you quote a Bible text?

Why?

Or

Why not?

[Esaias]

2 Corinthians 3:6 KJVS
[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Men will focus on just the written word and not the spirit. Thats why, you’ll have a saint condemn a preacher to hell for collecting tithe, yet will be happy for his Pastor that believes its ok to have a corona beer every now and again.

They look for what the letter says to the “T”, yet they cannot hear nor see what the spirit says.

Maybe Murray Burr said that....... :heeheehee

Just come on out and say it: you don't follow the Bible. It is not the final authority for faith and practice as far as you are concerned. You are far more spiritual than to need some dusty old book.

Or, you can get apostolic:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Acts 17:11 KJV
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Isaiah 8:20 KJV
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Psalm 119:126-130 KJV
It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law. [127] Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. [128] Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way. [129] Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them. [130] The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Psalm 119:103-105 KJV
How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! [104] Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. [105] Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Proverbs 1:22-23 KJV
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? [23] Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

John 6:63 KJV
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Matthew 4:4 KJV
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

[diakonos]

So… make it up as you go… just blame the spirit… sounds like that’s what some people are doing.

“I don’t have scripture, but the spirit….”

Well, what spirit, exactly?

SMH!

[diakonos]

No scriptural witness against beards, so accuse some church somewhere that may not even exist of advocating for marijuana consumption.

Catch any herring lately? See any straw men?

[coksiw]

Nicodemus, did you outgrow the Bible?

[jediwill83]

The real tragedy is when church people will condemn a plant that the Lord made and called good(Genesis 1:11-12 if you need a refresher...it says good right at the end and there isnt an addendum that says that the ole devil snuck in a few plants of his own)...but dont have a problem doctor shopping to score more vicodin they are addicted to and get indignant when the doc calls them out on it after a drug test...true story...and the reason I know is because its family...


God didnt change his mind to support the DEA and say, "Whoops...guess I shouldnt have made that and called it good."


There are uses and benefits in much of Gods creation and most can be abused as well if used improperly.


Stop letting government policy dictate your theology.


Gluttony is also a sin...but it doesn't mean that eating a cupcake is gonna send me to the hot place.


Some of you need some self control in your life.


Im not saying you need to shoot up heroin to test your temperance...but what I AM saying is making blanket statements that basically condemn anything not prescribed by a physician and sanctioned by the government is tantmount to heresy because you have elevated the pharmaceutical INDUSTRY and the PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX as your high priest that dictates whether or not something will send you to the hot place.


My goodness...if a PTSD suffering vet can have something thats natural instead of man created poisons and it keeps him level headed and sane long enough not to eat his gun...maybe he will survive long enough for some of you to get to him and win him to the Lord and then let God deal with him about it.


And before you start making accusations Id be happy to drug test for any of you. 🤣

[Bro Flame]

Poor Jim and Tammy getting sidelined in their own thread.

[jediwill83]

Poor Jim and Tammy getting sidelined in their own thread.


*Cries in purple and pink hair and running mascara.*

[Bro Flame]

*Cries in purple and pink hair and running mascara.*
More like Jan Crouch than Tammy Faye, but still funny.

:heeheehee:heeheehee:heeheehee

[diakonos]

https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enforcement-and-criminal-investigations/warning-letters/jim-bakker-show-604820-03062020

[diakonos]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/palashghosh/2021/06/23/televangelist-jim-bakkers-church-to-pay-156000-fake-covid-cure/?sh=3f8485ad2875

[Nicodemus1968]

So… make it up as you go… just blame the spirit… sounds like that’s what some people are doing.

“I don’t have scripture, but the spirit….”

Well, what spirit, exactly?

SMH!




Make it up as you go. Not at all.

You know better than that. We txt, we know the same people. In order words I’m saying this, a couple on this forum are like those sinners that say, I won’t quit smoking until it says it in the Bible. I won’t stop watching my TV until it’s says, “thou shalt not own a TV” same devil different dress. The same question I asked earlier, I’ll ask in another way, why do you need the Bible to specifically tell you not to smoke? Why do you need the Bible to specifically tell you not to watch Television?

Is the word of God important absolutely. Yet, you and I were not around as this word was written. Yet for our admonition it was written for us.

[Nicodemus1968]

Nicodemus, did you outgrow the Bible?

Why would you ask if I outgrew the Bible?

Because I simply asked why some need the scriptures to specifically say they can’t do a certain thing?

I understand some will get there pants in a knot because all they have is the letter.

So to answer your question, No I haven’t outgrown the Bible.

Now, allow me to ask you a question, what do YOU do in areas the Bible doesn’t specifically speak against or for?

[Nicodemus1968]

The hypocrisy of quoting scripture, for supporting your belief that you shouldn’t need scripture to support your doctrine.

The Pharisees don’t have anything on our own Brother Nicodemus 68.

When you preach a sermon?

Do you quote a Bible text?

Why?

Or

Why not?

Lol! All this because I asked why some need the Bible to specifically tell them not to do certain things?

Tithe man your the same person that supports your Pastor and was happy to post about how he will have a corona every now and again. Why, because in the times of the Bible they used wine, so therefore according to you Jesus is perfectly ok with a individual having a beer every now and again. Talk about using the scriptures to support a twisted doctrine.

[Nicodemus1968]

Just come on out and say it: you don't follow the Bible. It is not the final authority for faith and practice as far as you are concerned. You are far more spiritual than to need some dusty old book.

Or, you can get apostolic:.

Nothing wrong with the Bible. I never said not to read or follow the Bible.

Yet, Esaias, you should try talking to the final authority sometime. It'll do you some good.

[Tithesmeister]

Lol! All this because I asked why some need the Bible to specifically tell them not to do certain things?

Tithe man your the same person that supports your Pastor and was happy to post about how he will have a corona every now and again. Why, because in the times of the Bible they used wine, so therefore according to you Jesus is perfectly ok with a individual having a beer every now and again. Talk about using the scriptures to support a twisted doctrine.

What?!

Please post where I ever said this.

[coksiw]

Why would you ask if I outgrew the Bible?

Because I simply asked why some need the scriptures to specifically say they can’t do a certain thing?

I understand some will get there pants in a knot because all they have is the letter.

So to answer your question, No I haven’t outgrown the Bible.

Now, allow me to ask you a question, what do YOU do in areas the Bible doesn’t specifically speak against or for?

Well, what the Apostles did, which just makes sense?

Apostles applying the commandment directly, for example:

``Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. ``Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: ``that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.'''' - Ephesians 6:1-3 NKJV


Apostles applying the underlying principle, for example:

``Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?'' - 2 Corinthians 6:14-15 NKJV

The context of that passage is holiness. Compare with this commandment:

``Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son. For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the LORD will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly.'' - Deuteronomy 7:3-4 NKJV

That commandment is not directly applicable to us, but the underlying principle of holiness is. If the direct application of a commandment ends in cultural absurdity, it is a good indication that it is not directly applicable. For example, there was that commandment about marrying only people from Israel. It would be absurd to interpret the commandment directly, however Peter did use the underlying principle to find God's will regarding holiness when marrying.

Another example of underlying principle applied by the apostles. Notice how Paul unearths the underlying principle:

``Do I say these things as a [mere] man? Or does not the law say the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, ``You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.'' Is it oxen God is concerned about? Or does He say [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown spiritual things for you, [is it] a great thing if we reap your material things? If others are partakers of [this] right over you, [are] we not even more? Nevertheless we have not used this right, but endure all things lest we hinder the gospel of Christ.'' - 1 Corinthians 9:8-12 NKJV


It refers to this commandment:

``You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out [the grain].'' - Deuteronomy 25:4 NKJV



Apostles using examples (which you could find commandments as well):

Many O.T. examples show us the righteousness of God punishing iniquity on one side, and rewarding obedient faith, repentance, and righteousness on the other side.

``Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as [were] some of them. As it is written, ``The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.'' Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.'' - 1 Corinthians 10:6-11 NKJV


The Apostles also used the good examples from godly people.

``Wives, likewise, [be] submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct [accompanied] by fear. Do not let your adornment be [merely] outward--arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on [fine] apparel-- rather [let it be] the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible [beauty] of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.'' - 1 Peter 3:1-6 NKJV

Or the bad examples from ungodly ones.

``They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the [son] of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;'' - 2 Peter 2:15 NKJV

They also applied the Genesis Narrative to teach the will of God:

This is an example of Jesus using the Genesis creation narrative to draw a conclusion of what the perfect will of God is.


``The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, ``Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?'' And He answered and said to them, ``Have you not read that He who made [them] at the beginning `made them male and female,' and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.'' They said to Him, ``Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?'' He said to them, ``Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.'''' - Matthew 19:3-9 NKJV

There are more examples of the use of the Genesis narrative to determine the will of God or determine what is normal or natural. For example: Romans 1:26-27, 1 Timothy 2:11-14, 1 Corinthians 11:14-15.


Common sense. I do have a doctrine about it, and it is Scriptural, and apostolic.

[TGBTG]

Why would you ask if I outgrew the Bible?

Because I simply asked why some need the scriptures to specifically say they can’t do a certain thing?

I understand some will get there pants in a knot because all they have is the letter.

So to answer your question, No I haven’t outgrown the Bible.

Now, allow me to ask you a question, what do YOU do in areas the Bible doesn’t specifically speak against or for?

keep quiet ?

[Tithesmeister]

keep quiet ?

Why would you ask if I outgrew the Bible?

Because I simply asked why some need the scriptures to specifically say they can’t do a certain thing?

I understand some will get there pants in a knot because all they have is the letter.

So to answer your question, No I haven’t outgrown the Bible.

Now, allow me to ask you a question, what do YOU do in areas the Bible doesn’t specifically speak against or for?

Keep quiet?

Aren’t we supposed to speak when the Bible speaks and be quiet when the Bible is quiet?

[Jito463]

I mean why not, they’re letting down the whole beard and mustache “stance”.I never really got that doctrine. Don't get me wrong, I grew up in a church where men were all cleanshaven, so I prefer to be so (even though I'm lazy and only shave once every 2-3 weeks), but the Bible doesn't give any indication that we shouldn't grow one, and we know for a fact that Jesus had a beard.

Why do I have to give you scripture that says no beard?Coksiw beat me to it, but can you point even to an underlying principle that bans or forbids it? Consider the old standard of "no TV". While the Scripture doesn't explicitly come out and say "Thou shalt not watch TV", the concept was based on the Biblical principle of not putting unclean things before your eyes. Point me to the principle that forbids having a beard.

Why does a women want a scripture that specifically says no split up to your rear end?Going back to my previous comment about principles, the Bible tells us to dress modestly. Showing off skin with the intent of alluring others is not dressing modestly.

Yep that devils lettuce that God created. 🤣God created Arsenic, too. I think I'll pass on that, though.

[Jito463]

Where did I say that every one of them was lying fraudsters? I don’t remember saying that.

Oh, sorry. I made one mistake, you said "many". Same difference.

The modern tithing doctrine is nothing more or less than a network of lies. To be clear, tithing doctrine as taught in UPCI, WPF, AOG, and many other divisions of Christianity is not just a lie, but it is a network of many lies. It is not mere hypocrisy, it is the very spawn of Satan, the father of all lies.

But many pastors believe that they are going to get a pass.

Why?

Because they believe God is on their side. As if God okays the sin of lying if it is done on His behalf. If they believed God is nearly as powerful as they claim him to be, they would well understand that God doesn’t need them to lie about the tithe.

Is it a fraud? Absolutely

Is it a lie? No. It is many lies.

Where do ALL liars go?

I’m not doing pastors any favors by pretending that they are going to heaven, while lying about tithes. They may go to hell, but it won’t be because I didn’t speak up.

[Tithesmeister]

Oh, sorry. I made one mistake, you said "many". Same difference.

Thanks for straightening out your mistake. Same difference? Thats an oxymoron. You know it’s not the same.

Many is not the same as every.

Merriam Webster:

Many: consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number

Every: being each individual or part of a group without exception

Here’s some help for you courtesy of Merriam Webster.

[Jito463]

Thanks for straightening out your mistake. Same difference? Thats an oxymoron. You know it’s not the same.

Many is not the same as every.

Merriam Webster:

Many: consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number

Every: being each individual or part of a group without exception

Here’s some help for you courtesy of Merriam Webster.

Thanks for the English lesson. Now, what about you calling people teaching tithing lying frauds?

[Tithesmeister]

Thanks for the English lesson. Now, what about you calling people teaching tithing lying frauds?

As I have said, and I stand by it. Many are lying frauds. All tithe doctrine is not the same. There are many different variations of tithe doctrine. Some preachers don’t teach tithes. Others teach that the pastor gets 100% of the tithe. These are lying frauds. There is no way this doctrine is derived from scripture.

You’re welcome to the English lesson. Glad to help.

[Esaias]

Nothing wrong with the Bible. I never said not to read or follow the Bible.

Yet, Esaias, you should try talking to the final authority sometime. It'll do you some good.

I did. He said you are in gross error.

When the Bible contradicts your statements and you are called on it, you claim you are being spiritual and the others are being carnal, fleshly, unspiritual, stuck in the letter only, etc.

The truth is you are following the religion of your own whim and fancy, and you cannot submit to the Law (word) of God. According to Paul, that means you are carnal and headed towards eternal death:

Romans 8:6-7 KJV
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

[Esaias]

Keep quiet?

Aren’t we supposed to speak when the Bible speaks and be quiet when the Bible is quiet?

Apparently that's being carnal and stuck on the letter. I guess we're supposed to be spiritual and speak where the Bible is silent and where the Bible speaks we need to correct it.

I guess this is the root of the "can't be saved without a pastor" belief because the pastor is the fount of saving knowledge and not God and His Word.

Kind of like this:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 KJV
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[diakonos]

Ouch!

[Jito463]

As I have said, and I stand by it. Many are lying frauds. All tithe doctrine is not the same. There are many different variations of tithe doctrine. Some preachers don’t teach tithes. Others teach that the pastor gets 100% of the tithe. These are lying frauds. There is no way this doctrine is derived from scripture.

You’re welcome to the English lesson. Glad to help.

So you concede there are preachers who teach tithes that aren't lying frauds? Because you could have made that clearer in your original post. You made a very sweeping statement, that was painting everyone in multiple organizations with an extremely broad brush, all without any evidence to support your assertion.

[coksiw]

So you concede there are preachers who teach tithes that aren't lying frauds? Because you could have made that clearer in your original post. You made a very sweeping statement, that was painting everyone in multiple organizations with an extremely broad brush, all without any evidence to support your assertion.

Brother, tithing is Tithemeister his thing. It is just a forum language, not mathematics, consider it a figure of speech, hyperbole :lol

This is the point. At this point in time, most tithing teachers have been exposed to people questioning the doctrine: saints, internet, facebook, even the Bible lack of evidence itself when attempting to teach it as a commandment for the church. Why are those teachers sticking to the doctrine? what is their motivation? There are definitely many: from selfishness, or lack of honesty, or greed, or lack of faith, to fellowship acceptance, or sticking to some loved elder/pastor's doctrine no matter what (feeling of safety). Regardless, all those motivations are wrong.

[Tithesmeister]

So you concede there are preachers who teach tithes that aren't lying frauds? Because you could have made that clearer in your original post. You made a very sweeping statement, that was painting everyone in multiple organizations with an extremely broad brush, all without any evidence to support your assertion.

Basically you failed to distinguish the difference in the definition of many as opposed to every. Remember that?

My friend, words have definitions. Just because you don’t seem to have a third grade grasp of the English language, and you failed to get what I clearly said, doesn’t make it my problem.

The tithe problem is systemic. It is in the articles of faith in the AOG, UPCI, WPF, and AMF as well as other organizations. It is noteworthy that as these splits have occurred, supposedly over some new and better understanding of scripture, that each succeeding organization has pretty much copied and pasted the tithe doctrine from the former. And it seems it is pretty vague because they know they
don’t have scripture to support what they want everyone to believe.

There is no end to the scripture twisting that goes on. But some teach the truth of tithing. I am one of those that do. I have seen and heard saints extorted of tithing at the threat of their salvation. Some I personally know who certainly couldn’t afford to tithe and under a scriptural tithing doctrine that would have been sharing in the tithe.

The scriptural tithe wasn’t an income tithe. It was never rendered in money. Not once in the whole Bible. So yeah, it’s a scam. And pastors are generally the beneficiary of the “misunderstanding”. Did you know that there is never a single instance in the Bible where being a pastor qualified someone to receive a tithe? Widows, orphans, strangers and Levite’s as well as the tithers themselves shared the tithes. Yet this is never brought up by some tithe teachers. Their ability to ignore such a tremendous and clear cut body of scriptural evidence belies the notion of it being an oversight. It is intentional. And I have debated too many of them and seen them cut and run when the scripture systematically undermines their doctrine, to believe that they are interested in the truth when it costs them money. Maybe that’s why the tithe was originally not money.

If you think that pastors that teach tithing as ten percent of income are justified it speaks to the power of indoctrination. You certainly won’t find it in the Bible. I’ll be glad to debate you on it. Maybe you’ll learn something. Maybe not. You seem to believe what you believe, regardless of what the scripture has to say on the matter. Almost everything that is taught by these organizations concerning the tithe is false. It is not possible that it’s an oversight.

Tithing is the biggest scam in the history of the world. That’s my opinion and I can support it with scripture.

Has it ever occurred to you what a simple matter it would be for David Bernard to debate me and settle once and for all whether the UPCI doctrine on tithe is scriptural? Yet it never happens. Why? Because he KNOWS he can’t support the doctrine with scripture. And the organization is funded in large part by a false doctrine. In its very articles of faith. How ironic.

[diakonos]

Have you reached out to DKB for a debate?

[Tithesmeister]

Have you reached out to DKB for a debate?

No I haven’t.

[Tithesmeister]

Televangelist Jim Bakker to pay $156,000 in restitution for fake COVID-19 cure

https://www.foxnews.com/us/televangelist-jim-bakker-restitution-fake-covid-cure

[Tithesmeister]

It’s been a while since I posted this two hour long scripture twisting extortion of tithes. This guy says it’s impossible to be saved unless you tithe. So much for salvation being free, or the gospel being preached to the poor. Give it a listen. Give me your thoughts. He was a district superintendent of the state of Kansas for the UPCI. IIRC.


http://www.apostolicvault.com/admin/podcastgen/?name=2013-10-24_gods_holy_tithe_1.mp3

[Originalist]

It’s been a while since I posted this two hour long scripture twisting extortion of tithes. This guy says it’s impossible to be saved unless you tithe. So much for salvation being free, or the gospel being preached to the poor. Give it a listen. Give me your thoughts. He was a district superintendent of the state of Kansas for the UPCI. IIRC.


http://www.apostolicvault.com/admin/podcastgen/?name=2013-10-24_gods_holy_tithe_1.mp3

Thankfully, I can never again hold office with UPCI over this tithe issue. They won't license you if you do not believe in tithing.

[Tithesmeister]

Thankfully, I can never again hold office with UPCI over this tithe issue. They won't license you if you do not believe in tithing.

Do they put this in writing? Something tells me that they don’t.

[Esaias]

Televangelist Jim Bakker to pay $156,000 in restitution for fake COVID-19 cure

https://www.foxnews.com/us/televangelist-jim-bakker-restitution-fake-covid-cure

Buckets O'Cheezy Rice?

[Esaias]

I never really got that doctrine. Don't get me wrong, I grew up in a church where men were all cleanshaven, so I prefer to be so (even though I'm lazy and only shave once every 2-3 weeks), but the Bible doesn't give any indication that we shouldn't grow one, and we know for a fact that Jesus had a beard.

Coksiw beat me to it, but can you point even to an underlying principle that bans or forbids it? Consider the old standard of "no TV". While the Scripture doesn't explicitly come out and say "Thou shalt not watch TV", the concept was based on the Biblical principle of not putting unclean things before your eyes. Point me to the principle that forbids having a beard.



Command, approved example, necessary inference.

Command:

Leviticus 19:27 KJV
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

(Brenton transl. of Greek LXX: Ye shall not make a round cutting of the hair of your head, nor disfigure your beard.)

Approved examples:

Ex 1: When half the beard was shaved off as an insult, the response of David (who knew, honoured, and sought to follow all of God's instructions) was to order the half-shaved men to wait until the shaved half grew back, and NOT rather to shave the whole face so as to secure uniformity. Obviously, what was important was the beard rather than just looking presentable. It was better to grow the beard back than to be cleanshaven -

2 Samuel 10:4-5 KJV
Wherefore Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, even to their buttocks, and sent them away. [5] When they told it unto David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed: and the king said, Tarry at Jericho until your beards be grown, and then return.

Ex 2: Messiah was to have a beard, and the enemies of Messiah sought to remove His beard -

Isaiah 50:6 KJV
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Necessary inference:

Since only men normally grow beards, and since the appearance of the beard marks the boy's entry into manhood, and since God commands numerous distinctions of gender to be observed and maintained both in clothing, temperament, mannerism, and even hair length, it follows that to shave the beard for any reason other than an exceptional reason violates God's prescribed order of male-female differentiation. In other words, it is a type of gender-bending trannyism akin to cross dressing or men having long flowing womanly hair or men being effeminate or sodomites.

* Note: the Divine command for men not to mar their beards (ie to maintain a full beard) DOES have certain Divinely prescribed exceptions, as in the completion of a Nazarite vow, in regards to the treatment of leprosies, etc. But as is usually the case, "the exception proves the rule."

* Note: The command does not specify the LENGTH of the beard, only that the "corners" not be disfigured. That is, the BORDER or "hairline" is to be kept naturally. Thus partial beards like goatees etc are expressly prohibited.

* Note: Since sin is transgression of the law, and since the law prohibits the shaving of the beard except in certain exceptional cases, it is a SIN for a man to shave the beard except in those exceptional cases. This should come as no surprise. After all, how many assert it is a sin for a woman to cut her hair (even though technically there is no actual command in the law prohibiting a woman cutting her hair)? Well, there IS a direct command FROM GOD ALMIGHTY commanding men to maintain a natural beard.

[coksiw]

As a matter of curiosity, it seems that they used to trim their mustache:

2 Samuel 19:24
Now Mephibosheth the son of Saul came down to meet the king. And he had not cared for his feet, nor trimmed his mustache, nor washed his clothes, from the day the king departed until the day he returned in peace.

[Nicodemus1968]

I never really got that doctrine. Don't get me wrong, I grew up in a church where men were all cleanshaven, so I prefer to be so (even though I'm lazy and only shave once every 2-3 weeks), but the Bible doesn't give any indication that we shouldn't grow one, and we know for a fact that Jesus had a beard.

Coksiw beat me to it, but can you point even to an underlying principle that bans or forbids it? Consider the old standard of "no TV". While the Scripture doesn't explicitly come out and say "Thou shalt not watch TV", the concept was based on the Biblical principle of not putting unclean things before your eyes. Point me to the principle that forbids having a beard.

Going back to my previous comment about principles, the Bible tells us to dress modestly. Showing off skin with the intent of alluring others is not dressing modestly.

There are a couple on this forum that have asked a couple times before, “show me where the Bible says that!” They and I both know that the Bible doesn’t say this or that specifically. And thats what I was getting at, and I just used beards and mustaches as an example.

Of course then, I asked “Why do I have to show you scripture...?” And now I’m my own religion, I outgrew the Bible..... LOL!

My point from all this was exactly, why do I have to show you where (scripture) it says specifically not to do this or that? Weather its beards like Duck Commander, or its split thats at the ankle or above the knee, or even TV. I understand there are biblical principles that we can use to show why we dont watch TV, or why our wives aren't walking around immodest.

When I’m asked a question by one of the saints in the church, 99.9% of the time I dont ask them if they read their bibles. That shouldnt surprise some of you, since you already consider me a heretic. I asked them have you prayed about it. I ask them, what has the Spirit told you? Thats one of the biggest reasons I disagree with the person that said, when the Bible is quiet, I’m quiet. No, you can talk to Jesus, and he will answer.

In my OPINION, usually when someone asks you to show them scripture and verse, its because they havent prayed about it. Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to, YOU should go and pray about it, and allow the Spirit to teach you! That person doesn’t want you to show them, they want to prove themselves right to ease their conscience.

So, I do read the Bible, I havent outgrew it.

Deuteronomy 8:3 KJVS
[3] And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Psalm 119:105 KJVS
[105] Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Jeremiah 20:9 KJVS
[9] Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay .

Ephesians 6:17 KJVS
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Remember when this was written, they didnt have a bound book to reference, the word came to them from the Spirit.

[jediwill83]

There are a couple on this forum that have asked a couple times before, “show me where the Bible says that!” They and I both know that the Bible doesn’t say this or that specifically. And thats what I was getting at, and I just used beards and mustaches as an example.

Of course then, I asked “Why do I have to show you scripture...?” And now I’m my own religion, I outgrew the Bible..... LOL!

My point from all this was exactly, why do I have to show you where (scripture) it says specifically not to do this or that? Weather its beards like Duck Commander, or its split thats at the ankle or above the knee, or even TV. I understand there are biblical principles that we can use to show why we dont watch TV, or why our wives aren't walking around immodest.

When I’m asked a question by one of the saints in the church, 99.9% of the time I dont ask them if they read their bibles. That shouldnt surprise some of you, since you already consider me a heretic. I asked them have you prayed about it. I ask them, what has the Spirit told you? Thats one of the biggest reasons I disagree with the person that said, when the Bible is quiet, I’m quiet. No, you can talk to Jesus, and he will answer.

In my OPINION, usually when someone asks you to show them scripture and verse, its because they havent prayed about it. Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to, YOU should go and pray about it, and allow the Spirit to teach you! That person doesn’t want you to show them, they want to prove themselves right to ease their conscience.

So, I do read the Bible, I havent outgrew it.

Deuteronomy 8:3 KJVS
[3] And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Psalm 119:105 KJVS
[105] Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Jeremiah 20:9 KJVS
[9] Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay .

Ephesians 6:17 KJVS
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Remember when this was written, they didnt have a bound book to reference, the word came to them from the Spirit.


Yeah I gotta agree in the sense that what God has just brought me through was done nearly 80% based on listening to the voice of Jesus and letting Him guide my steps...I was dealing with stuff that there was no explict recipe in scripture to lay out how to proceed...but God indeed answers His children when they cry and and He will indeed speak and lead them to victory.

[Esaias]

"Remember when this was written, they didnt have a bound book to reference, the word came to them from the Spirit."


1. The prophets and apostles got the word and it became Scripture. Are you suggesting your revelations are new Scripture?

2. The leading of the Spirit in God's people is not AWAY from the Word but INTO the Word:

John 16:13 KJV
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What is the "truth"?

John 17:17 KJV
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

The leading of the Spirit does not replace or contradict the scripture.

1 Corinthians 14:29 KJV
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

1 John 4:1 KJV
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 KJV
Quench not the Spirit. [20] Despise not prophesyings. [21] Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

The revelations people get must be JUDGED, TESTED, PROVEN. This is where the Scriptures come in:

Acts 17:11 KJV
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 KJV
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

When "spiritual impulses and revelations" contradict the Scripture, the revelation is false:

Romans 3:4 KJV
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Isaiah 8:19-20 KJV
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? [20] To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

[Esaias]

"Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to,"

Yes you should. As one who claims to TEACH you better be lined up book chapter and verse with the Scripture:

1 Peter 4:11 KJV
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

That bolded part doesn't mean to put your own opinions on a pedestal as if they were the oracles of God. It means if you speak it must be IN LINE WITH and REFLECT the oracles of God, which are the Scriptures:

Romans 3:2 KJV
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

When you are asked to show the Scripture for your doctrine, it is reasonable to give the Scriptures. Otherwise you plainly admit your doctrine is NOT Bible doctrine, but your personal doctrine. We are warned against this:

Matthew 15:7-9 KJV
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:6-9 KJV
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. [7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. [8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. [9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

There is no Scripture prohibiting beards. But that is not the end of the story. God positively commands men to have a beard. To teach a man ought not to have a beard, that God disapproves of men having beards, is to teach bold faced lies and to promote blatant, obvious, provable sin.

But men love to teach as doctrine their own man made commandments. Men love to REJECT THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD in order to KEEP their own traditions. According to Jesus, such people worship God IN VAIN and are lost.

[Esaias]

Once again:

Command, approved example, necessary inference.

Command:

Leviticus 19:27 KJV
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

(Brenton transl. of Greek LXX: Ye shall not make a round cutting of the hair of your head, nor disfigure your beard.)

Approved examples:

Ex 1: When half the beard was shaved off as an insult, the response of David (who knew, honoured, and sought to follow all of God's instructions) was to order the half-shaved men to wait until the shaved half grew back, and NOT rather to shave the whole face so as to secure uniformity. Obviously, what was important was the beard rather than just looking presentable. It was better to grow the beard back than to be cleanshaven -

2 Samuel 10:4-5 KJV
Wherefore Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, even to their buttocks, and sent them away. [5] When they told it unto David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed: and the king said, Tarry at Jericho until your beards be grown, and then return.

Ex 2: Messiah was to have a beard, and the enemies of Messiah sought to remove His beard -

Isaiah 50:6 KJV
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Necessary inference:

Since only men normally grow beards, and since the appearance of the beard marks the boy's entry into manhood, and since God commands numerous distinctions of gender to be observed and maintained both in clothing, temperament, mannerism, and even hair length, it follows that to shave the beard for any reason other than an exceptional reason violates God's prescribed order of male-female differentiation. In other words, it is a type of gender-bending trannyism akin to cross dressing or men having long flowing womanly hair or men being effeminate or sodomites.

* Note: the Divine command for men not to mar their beards (ie to maintain a full beard) DOES have certain Divinely prescribed exceptions, as in the completion of a Nazarite vow, in regards to the treatment of leprosies, etc. But as is usually the case, "the exception proves the rule."

* Note: The command does not specify the LENGTH of the beard, only that the "corners" not be disfigured. That is, the BORDER or "hairline" is to be kept naturally. Thus partial beards like goatees etc are expressly prohibited.

* Note: Since sin is transgression of the law, and since the law prohibits the shaving of the beard except in certain exceptional cases, it is a SIN for a man to shave the beard except in those exceptional cases. This should come as no surprise. After all, how many assert it is a sin for a woman to cut her hair (even though technically there is no actual command in the law prohibiting a woman cutting her hair)? Well, there IS a direct command FROM GOD ALMIGHTY commanding men to maintain a natural beard.

[Tithesmeister]

There are a couple on this forum that have asked a couple times before, “show me where the Bible says that!” They and I both know that the Bible doesn’t say this or that specifically. And thats what I was getting at, and I just used beards and mustaches as an example.

Of course then, I asked “Why do I have to show you scripture...?” And now I’m my own religion, I outgrew the Bible..... LOL!

My point from all this was exactly, why do I have to show you where (scripture) it says specifically not to do this or that? Weather its beards like Duck Commander, or its split thats at the ankle or above the knee, or even TV. I understand there are biblical principles that we can use to show why we dont watch TV, or why our wives aren't walking around immodest.

When I’m asked a question by one of the saints in the church, 99.9% of the time I dont ask them if they read their bibles. That shouldnt surprise some of you, since you already consider me a heretic. I asked them have you prayed about it. I ask them, what has the Spirit told you? Thats one of the biggest reasons I disagree with the person that said, when the Bible is quiet, I’m quiet. No, you can talk to Jesus, and he will answer.

In my OPINION, usually when someone asks you to show them scripture and verse, its because they havent prayed about it. Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to, YOU should go and pray about it, and allow the Spirit to teach you! That person doesn’t want you to show them, they want to prove themselves right to ease their conscience.

So, I do read the Bible, I havent outgrew it.

Deuteronomy 8:3 KJVS
[3] And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Psalm 119:105 KJVS
[105] Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Jeremiah 20:9 KJVS
[9] Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay .

Ephesians 6:17 KJVS
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Remember when this was written, they didnt have a bound book to reference, the word came to them from the Spirit.


“Some will be saved in spite of the church.”
~ Murray Burr

[Esaias]

As a matter of curiosity, it seems that they used to trim their mustache:

2 Samuel 19:24
Now Mephibosheth the son of Saul came down to meet the king. And he had not cared for his feet, nor trimmed his mustache, nor washed his clothes, from the day the king departed until the day he returned in peace.

Trimming the mustache/beard is part of taking care of yourself, like bathing and paring your nails. That is different than removing the boundaries of the beard, or removing it altogether.

[Esaias]

"Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to, YOU should go and pray about it, and allow the Spirit to teach you! "

And when a person does pray about it, and God shows them something contrary to the preacher's tradition/opinion, they are told what? "Well, keep praying! And we'll be praying for you! And in the meantime, we'll basically treat you like just a visitor and not truly as a brother. Until you come around to our tradition."

[Esaias]

The whole world actually hates the Bible. Including the religious world. Why? Because it exposes them as they truly are:

Hebrews 4:12-13 KJV
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [13] Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Therefore they engage in any and all mental and rhetorical gymnastics to NOT actually do the things the Bible says to do, and to excuse their rejections of the Words of God. All the while many of them give lip service to God and His Word, just like the Pharisees, Sadducees, and false believers have always done. There is truly nothing new under the sun.

[Jito463]

Has it ever occurred to you what a simple matter it would be for David Bernard to debate me and settle once and for all whether the UPCI doctrine on tithe is scriptural? Yet it never happens. Why?

Have you reached out to DKB for a debate?

No I haven’t.

:doh

[diakonos]

"Ive heard that for years, show me scripture where I cant watch TV, show me scripture where it says I cannot drink wine, or grow a beard. I cant! And I shouldnt have to, YOU should go and pray about it, and allow the Spirit to teach you! "

And when a person does pray about it, and God shows them something contrary to the preacher's tradition/opinion, they are told what? "Well, keep praying! And we'll be praying for you! And in the meantime, we'll basically treat you like just a visitor and not truly as a brother. Until you come around to our tradition."
This!
“Have you prayed about it?”
“Go pray about it.”
“Keep praying about it.”

I learned real fast that what this means is, “don’t bring it up again until you agree with me.”

[coksiw]

Once again:

Command, approved example, necessary inference.

Command:

Leviticus 19:27 KJV
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

(Brenton transl. of Greek LXX: Ye shall not make a round cutting of the hair of your head, nor disfigure your beard.)

Approved examples:

Ex 1: When half the beard was shaved off as an insult, the response of David (who knew, honoured, and sought to follow all of God's instructions) was to order the half-shaved men to wait until the shaved half grew back, and NOT rather to shave the whole face so as to secure uniformity. Obviously, what was important was the beard rather than just looking presentable. It was better to grow the beard back than to be cleanshaven -

2 Samuel 10:4-5 KJV
Wherefore Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, even to their buttocks, and sent them away. [5] When they told it unto David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed: and the king said, Tarry at Jericho until your beards be grown, and then return.

Ex 2: Messiah was to have a beard, and the enemies of Messiah sought to remove His beard -

Isaiah 50:6 KJV
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Necessary inference:

Since only men normally grow beards, and since the appearance of the beard marks the boy's entry into manhood, and since God commands numerous distinctions of gender to be observed and maintained both in clothing, temperament, mannerism, and even hair length, it follows that to shave the beard for any reason other than an exceptional reason violates God's prescribed order of male-female differentiation. In other words, it is a type of gender-bending trannyism akin to cross dressing or men having long flowing womanly hair or men being effeminate or sodomites.

* Note: the Divine command for men not to mar their beards (ie to maintain a full beard) DOES have certain Divinely prescribed exceptions, as in the completion of a Nazarite vow, in regards to the treatment of leprosies, etc. But as is usually the case, "the exception proves the rule."

* Note: The command does not specify the LENGTH of the beard, only that the "corners" not be disfigured. That is, the BORDER or "hairline" is to be kept naturally. Thus partial beards like goatees etc are expressly prohibited.

* Note: Since sin is transgression of the law, and since the law prohibits the shaving of the beard except in certain exceptional cases, it is a SIN for a man to shave the beard except in those exceptional cases. This should come as no surprise. After all, how many assert it is a sin for a woman to cut her hair (even though technically there is no actual command in the law prohibiting a woman cutting her hair)? Well, there IS a direct command FROM GOD ALMIGHTY commanding men to maintain a natural beard.


Good post. This topic of the beard keeps coming to my mind. My wife, who grew UPCI, in a no-beard church, has changed her view after reading the Pentateuch recently without me even trying to persuade her.

[Scott Pitta]

The Bakers are the reason I never watch religious television/cable/online of any kind.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The Bakers are the reason I never watch religious television/cable/online of any kind.

I'm so proud of you Scott. Good boy.

Now go take your fish for a walk.

[Scott Pitta]

There is almost enough ice on the lake for fishing. I require at least 5 inches of good ice for walking out on deep water lakes.

My wife will not let me drive on a frozen lake.

[Nicodemus1968]

There is almost enough ice on the lake for fishing. I require at least 5 inches of good ice for walking out on deep water lakes.

My wife will not let me drive on a frozen lake.

It’s a great time driving on the Chequamegon Bay around January/February. I remember they used to have car races on there.

[Evang.Benincasa]

There is almost enough ice on the lake for fishing. I require at least 5 inches of good ice for walking out on deep water lakes.

My wife will not let me drive on a frozen lake.

What do you mean she won't let you? Does she dress you in the morning? :laffatu

[Nicodemus1968]

All Scott wanted for Christmas was for people to be nice to him.

I guess wishes on Christmas don’t come true…. Oh well.

[Evang.Benincasa]

All Scott wanted for Christmas was for people to be nice to him.

I guess wishes on Christmas don’t come true…. Oh well.

They do if you listen to Dean Martin Xmas albums while praying the rosary. :)

[Nicodemus1968]

they do if you listen to dean martin xmas albums while praying the rosary. :)

😂😂😂😂😂

[Evang.Benincasa]

😂😂😂😂😂

:heeheehee

[CC1]

The Bakers are the reason I never watch religious television/cable/online of any kind.

I bet its not! I have a feeling it is the Bakkers.:happydance