Do you still support the War in Iraq?

[jwharv]

Do you still support the War in Iraq? We hear every day how the War is loosing support so how do you feel??????

[Malvaro]

it lacks tactical focus.... lacks an official point of closure/success.... thus is bound to fail....the US was never meant to be the World's Policeman....

Bush now has the blood of many brave soldiers on his hands.... due to his lack of direction and unwillingness to acknowledge making mistakes and gracefully backing away from that whole area....

jmho

[Praxeas]

it lacks tactical focus.... lacks an official point of closure/success.... thus is bound to fail....the US was never meant to be the World's Policeman....

Bush now has the blood of many brave soldiers on his hands.... due to his lack of direction and unwillingness to acknowledge making mistakes and gracefully backing away from that whole area....

jmho
It was a tactical blunder from the beginning, It was said before the war that the post war action was much more important and that much more troops would be needed to close off the borders and police the rebuilding process and that we never quite got it. The prison scandal too only hurt us. In hind sight we never should have been there and it seems perhaps we never really finished in Afghanistan nor have we decapitated Al Queda by getting Bin Laden. The rest of the European wimps did not support us and so we have had to foot most of the bill too which is an economic blunder too. I think we should have relied more on covert operations.

As for what we are there now doing? We seem to have a responsibility now for at least some time in stabilizing and rebuilding, but we can only be there so long and give so much when it seems all the want to do is kill each other and not co-operate so of course I say we need to bring our troops home at some point with or without a stable government and situation there. When that is I can't say nor am I paid a bundle to say

[DividedThigh]

it lacks tactical focus.... lacks an official point of closure/success.... thus is bound to fail....the US was never meant to be the World's Policeman....

Bush now has the blood of many brave soldiers on his hands.... due to his lack of direction and unwillingness to acknowledge making mistakes and gracefully backing away from that whole area....

jmho

spoken like a true demo parrot, i support the war because we are trying to do something good, i didnt say we are succeeding i said we are trying, and by the way before you get to smart, my brother is over there right now, so instead of wasting your breath trying to convince me, pray for him, and one of my friends son in laws from texas that is also over there, dt

[Malvaro]

spoken like a true demo parrot, i support the war because we are trying to do something good, i didnt say we are succeeding i said we are trying, and by the way before you get to smart, my brother is over there right now, so instead of wasting your breath trying to convince me, pray for him, and one of my friends son in laws from texas that is also over there, dt

spoken like a true demo parrot
Are you serious?!? You're calling me a Democrat based on my opinion on the War.... trust me buddy, theres lots of Republicans who would agree with me that this thing has gone on WAYYYYYY too long without a definite plan of closure.... Bush throwing more soldiers into the mix isn't going to "fix" anything....

i support the war because we are trying to do something good, i didnt say we are succeeding i said we are trying
I don't see where you previously posted on this thread, so I must have not been directing my comments toward you.... I didn't call into question the goodness of his intent, just the weakness of his military planning and oversight....

by the way before you get to smart, my brother is over there right now, so instead of wasting your breath trying to convince me, pray for him, and one of my friends son in laws from texas that is also over there, dt
I didn't make my statements with the intent to persuade anyone.... I was just speaking my mind, something that apparently is still acceptable here on AFF....

Get over yourself.... just because I no longer support a tactically-flawed military conflict, doesn't mean I don't support and applaud the many soldiers and military personnel that have been involved.... I clearly stated "brave soldiers" - this is obviously a military decision that they had no choice in....

[DividedThigh]

Are you serious?!? You're calling me a Democrat based on my opinion on the War.... trust me buddy, theres lots of Republicans who would agree with me that this thing has gone on WAYYYYYY too long without a definite plan of closure.... Bush throwing more soldiers into the mix isn't going to "fix" anything....


I don't see where you previously posted on this thread, so I must have not been directing my comments toward you.... I didn't call into question the goodness of his intent, just the weakness of his military planning and oversight....


I didn't make my statements with the intent to persuade anyone.... I was just speaking my mind, something that apparently is still acceptable here on AFF....

Get over yourself.... just because I no longer support a tactically-flawed military conflict, doesn't mean I don't support and applaud the many soldiers and military personnel that have been involved.... I clearly stated "brave soldiers" - this is obviously a military decision that they had no choice in....

i was not insulting you or anyone i am just tired of all the people attacking the war and in effect our men, i am glad that wasnt your intent, obviously this is near and dear to me, i dont seem to be the only one on here that is a little touchy, lol, dt

[Rico]

Well, I voted Republican the last election and was very much in favor of the war, at first. It just seems that we have become too entangled in Iraq to be able to find a graceful way of exiting. It's time for the Iraqis to govern themselves in every way. The current government needs to stand or fall on its own.

[DividedThigh]

Well, I voted Republican the last election and was very much in favor of the war, at first. It just seems that we have become too entangled in Iraq to be able to find a graceful way of exiting. It's time for the Iraqis to govern themselves in every way. The current government needs to stand or fall on its own.

i agree rico, i am glad that saddam is gone, but i dont think we are responsible for there people now, they have the means to have life and wealth, i just dont see a graceful way to get out of there, dt

[ILG]

My husband says it shouldn't be called a war...maybe a peace keeping mission at this point.

[Malvaro]

i was not insulting you or anyone i am just tired of all the people attacking the war and in effect our men, i am glad that wasnt your intent, obviously this is near and dear to me, i dont seem to be the only one on here that is a little touchy, lol, dt

There is a BIGGGG difference between supporting a war and supporting the men who serve in a war.... one can easily a) not support a war due to its tactically-flawed strategies and no clearly-defined closure, yet b) support every soldier who bravely fight serving their country.... trust me, i have stood on the platform numerous times and called our church to prayer for our US soldiers and those that are serving associated with our church....

as a matter of fact, one of the drummers in your very own church previously served a LONNNNGGG tour over there....

[DividedThigh]

There is a BIGGGG difference between supporting a war and supporting the men who serve in a war.... one can easily a) not support a war due to its tactically-flawed strategies and no clearly-defined closure, yet b) support every soldier who bravely fight serving their country.... trust me, i have stood on the platform numerous times and called our church to prayer for our US soldiers and those that are serving associated with our church....

as a matter of fact, one of the drummers in your very own church previously served a LONNNNGGG tour over there....

i am well aware of him being over there, i play ball with him every week, and i have a young man from my ss class that is there now a proud Marine, i just have a hard time, not with what you are saying, but the rhetoric of the left in this country , because what they say is demeaning and not supportive of the troops, that is all, dt

[Malvaro]

Well, I voted Republican the last election and was very much in favor of the war, at first. It just seems that we have become too entangled in Iraq to be able to find a graceful way of exiting. It's time for the Iraqis to govern themselves in every way. The current government needs to stand or fall on its own.

ummmm thats the whole point though.... it's really not strong enough militarily to stand on its own and thus needs military support.... so its a Catch 22....

style of enemies is guerrilla-warfare.... the mobility of these people, combined with their ability to successfully "blend" with civilian population, makes them shadows that come and go.... with no military combat unit to target....

[Rico]

ummmm thats the whole point though.... it's really not strong enough militarily to stand on its own and thus needs military support.... so its a Catch 22....

style of enemies is guerrilla-warfare.... the mobility of these people, combined with their ability to successfully "blend" with civilian population, makes them shadows that come and go.... with no military combat unit to target....

Malvaro, it has gotten to the point that we are policing a civil war. We need to get out and let that civil war play itself out, without our interference.

[Malvaro]

i am well aware of him being over there, i play ball with him every week, and i have a young man from my ss class that is there now a proud Marine, i just have a hard time, not with what you are saying, but the rhetoric of the left in this country , because what they say is demeaning and not supportive of the troops, that is all, dt

I didn't appreciate you calling me a Democrat.... I have voted Republican party since I have been old enough to vote, and venomously disagree with the Democratic party on many, if not all, their moral stances....

[DividedThigh]

Malvaro, it has gotten to the point that we are policing a civil war. We need to get out and let that civil war play itself out, without our interference.

the biggest problem gentlemen is that public opinion in this country is so easily swayed, you hit it on the head with there tactics, it is policing, the fact is that our guys are caught in the middle, i believe in what they are trying to do, but the media makes our guys out to be murderers and bullies, and awful lot, not good , best to get out and let them sort it out, not the best for them but for us, dt

[Rico]

the biggest problem gentlemen is that public opinion in this country is so easily swayed, you hit it on the head with there tactics, it is policing, the fact is that our guys are caught in the middle, i believe in what they are trying to do, but the media makes our guys out to be murderers and bullies, and awful lot, not good , best to get out and let them sort it out, not the best for them but for us, dt

DT, we just lack the will for an extended conflict.

[DividedThigh]

I didn't appreciate you calling me a Democrat.... I have voted Republican party since I have been old enough to vote, and venomously disagree with the Democratic party on many, if not all, their moral stances....

i am glad to hear that, dt

[DividedThigh]

DT, we just lack the will for an extended conflict.

rico, you are correct, this country doesnt have the will for any thing, you have politicians running around right now saying there is no global war on terror, as john wayne said, we will rhue the day, we believe that, lol,dt:drama

[Malvaro]

i am glad to hear that, dt

aren't you missing something??

[Emma Bontrager]

War is wrong. We should all be non-resistant and let hell take over and kill us all.

[Malvaro]

War is wrong. We should all be non-resistant and let hell take over and kill us all.

Emma, go back to your Amish paradise.... :D

[Malvaro]

aren't you missing something??

spoken like a true demo parrot

???

[Emma Bontrager]

Emma, go back to your Amish paradise.... :D

If you saw how many beans and peas I put up yesterday, you wouldn't call it a paradise. ;) At any rate, we practice non-resistance. If we all did that they would just come over here and make us all wear burkhas or kill us. I think burkhas are actually more holy than what we wear now, but MAN would they be hot to garden in. :uhoh

[DividedThigh]

If you saw how many beans and peas I put up yesterday, you wouldn't call it a paradise. ;) At any rate, we practice non-resistance. If we all did that they would just come over here and make us all wear burkhas or kill us. I think burkhas are actually more holy than what we wear now, but MAN would they be hot to garden in. :uhoh

emma, i am sad for you, but if you want just go over there they will oblige you and kill you, no kidding, dt

[Digging4Truth]

Resorting to a medical analogy, a wrong diagnosis was made at the beginning of the war and the wrong treatment was prescribed. Refusing to reassess our mistakes and insist on just more and more of a failed remedy is destined to kill the patient-in this case the casualties will be our liberties and prosperity here at home and peace abroad.

-Ron Paul Before the U.S. House of Representatives February 14, 2007

[Emma Bontrager]

emma, i am sad for you, but if you want just go over there they will oblige you and kill you, no kidding, dt

Are you saying non-resistance is wrong?? I thought that the UPC actually promoted non-resistance too!! Here is what the UPC articles of faith say!!

CONSCIENTIOUS SCRUPLES

We recognize the institution of human government as being of divine ordination, and, in so doing, affirm unswerving loyalty to our Government; however, we take a definite position regarding the bearing of arms or the taking of human life.

As followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, we believe in implicit obedience to His commandments and precepts which instruct us as follows: ".. that ye resist not evil. . ." (Matt. 5:39): "Follow peace with all men..." (Heb. 12:14). (See also Matt. 26:52; Rom. 12:19; James 5:6; Revelation 13:10). These we believe and interpret to mean Christians shall not shed blood nor take human life.

Therefore, we propose to fulfill all the obligations of loyal citizens, but are constrained to declare against participating in combatant service in war, armed insurrection, property destruction, aiding or abetting in or the actual destruction of human life.

Furthermore, we cannot conscientiously affiliate with any union, boycott, or organization which will force or bind any of its members to belong to any organization, perform any duties contrary to our conscience, or receive any mark, without our right to affirm or reject same (1930).

However, we regret the false impression created by some groups or so-called "conscientious objectors" that to obey the Bible is to have a contempt for law or magistrates, to be disloyal to our Government and in sympathy with our enemies, or to be unwilling to sacrifice for the preservation of our commonwealth. This attitude would be as contemptible to us as to any patriot. The Word of God commands us to do violence to no man. It also commands us that first of all we are to pray for rulers of our country. We, therefore, exhort our members to freely and willingly respond to the call of our Government except in the matter of bearing arms. When we say service, we mean service-no matter how hard or dangerous. The true church has no more place for cowards than has the nation. First of all, however, let us earnestly pray that we will with honor be kept out of war.

We believe that we can be consistent in serving our Government in certain noncombatant capacities, but not in the bearing of arms. (1940).

We further believe that our military personnel must live in a manner consistent with the Articles of Faith.

I am so confused.

[DividedThigh]

Are you saying non-resistance is wrong?? I thought that the UPC actually promoted non-resistance too!! Here is what the UPC articles of faith say!!



I am so confused.

that is a epiphany for you i am sure, a moment of clear honesty, i dont believe or practice the conscientious objector attitude, never will, still sad for you, dt

[Digging4Truth]

Are there any UPC preachers on here who don't practice the conscientious objector "attitude"?

[DividedThigh]

Are there any UPC preachers on here who don't practice the conscientious objector "attitude"?

not me, dt

[Digging4Truth]

not me, dt

Not me... as in you are a UPC preacher?

[DividedThigh]

Not me... as in you are a UPC preacher?

carried a license for many years, but not now, i am a member and preach, so i guess i still am , and i am no co ever, dt

[Malvaro]

i am glad to hear that, dt
Are you unwilling to retract your Democrat statement???

[CupCake]

Do you still support the War in Iraq? We hear every day how the War is loosing support so how do you feel??????

I have never supported this War! A war built on lies will never have victory~

[Monkeyman]

I have ONLY voted republican. This is a STUPID war. No, not our servicemen & women, just the war and the decision to go to war in Iraq. My nephew also was stationed in Iraq, thank God he is back home, I pray all of your loved ones come home soon too!

Remember, the great Colin Powell told the President NOT to go to war, I wish his valuable advice was heeded.

There is NO reason for the US troops to be there.

[DividedThigh]

Are you unwilling to retract your Democrat statement???

first of all it would be impossible for me to make a democrat statement, cause i aint one, and second if you are referring to what i said about your writing, i said demo parrot, not calling you anything but referring to what you said sounding like what i hear from them all the time, dt

[Digging4Truth]

I have ONLY voted republican. This is a STUPID war. No, not our servicemen & women, just the war and the decision to go to war in Iraq. My nephew also was stationed in Iraq, thank God he is back home, I pray all of your loved ones come home soon too!

Remember, the great Colin Powell told the President NOT to go to war, I wish his valuable advice was heeded.

There is NO reason for the US troops to be there.

Indeed...

[Digging4Truth]

I have never supported this War! A war built on lies will never have victory~

I was once a 100% GW Bush supporter and also 100% behind the war.

I am over both of them now... Completely.

[Ferd]

I have never supported this War! A war built on lies will never have victory~


Cupcake, if GWB said the sky was blue, i could still hear your shrill voice calling for impeachment.

[Ferd]

I was watching Fox news yesterday. there was a 2 star general on who was talking about what is going on in Iraq right now as a result of the new direction.

In an area with strong Al Queda presence, a group of Iraqis mobbed some Al Queda people while they were trying to plant an IED. They held the bad guys until the troops could get there.

some of the most dangerous places in Iraq have calmed down considerably. I think we need to give the current plan more time to see if we can get things in control.

However, we are fast approaching the point where the Iraqi people are going to have to step up win their country.

[Digging4Truth]

Cupcake, if GWB said the sky was blue, i could still hear your shrill voice calling for impeachment.

Ooo... Ooo... Ooo... and mine too.

:choir

[DividedThigh]

Cupcake, if GWB said the sky was blue, i could still hear your shrill voice calling for impeachment.

ferd, well said, i dont know you but my heart likes you, lol,dt:slaphappy

[Ferd]

ferd, well said, i dont know you but my heart likes you, lol,dt:slaphappy

LOL! I am just trying to be a blessing brother!

[philjones]

Some of you folks blabber and blubber like dunderheads. We are not fighting a nation so much as an ideology. I sorely wish that it had been a nation that attacked us in 2001. Had that been the case this "war" would have long ago been over. We would have retaliated with unrestrained force against a nation, regardless the incidental casualties. We would have gone in with guns blazing and brought that nation to its knees! Unfortunately we are at war with radical islamists who are difficult to identify and harder still to attack without risking the lives of innocents who had no part in the original attack.

I can not wait to hear the change in some of your pathetic rhetoric when (not if) we are hit again in the United States. It will be amazing how quickly you will shift your direction on war if it hits close to home!

All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to sit around and do nothing but talk about those who are trying to do something! (intentionally paraphrased)

[DividedThigh]

Some of you folks blabber and blubber like dunderheads. We are not fighting a nation so much as an ideology. I sorely wish that it had been a nation that attacked us in 2001. Had that been the case this "war" would have long ago been over. We would have retaliated with unrestrained force against a nation, regardless the incidental casualties. We would have gone in with guns blazing and brought that nation to its knees! Unfortunately we are at war with radical islamists who are difficult to identify and harder still to attack without risking the lives of innocents who had no part in the original attack.

I can not wait to hear the change in some of your pathetic rhetoric when (not if) we are hit again in the United States. It will be amazing how quickly you will shift your direction on war if it hits close to home!

All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to sit around and do nothing but talk about those who are trying to do something! (intentionally paraphrased)

very good my friend, forgetting 911 allready i guess, very sad, dt

[Malvaro]

Some of you folks blabber and blubber like dunderheads. We are not fighting a nation so much as an ideology. I sorely wish that it had been a nation that attacked us in 2001. Had that been the case this "war" would have long ago been over. We would have retaliated with unrestrained force against a nation, regardless the incidental casualties. We would have gone in with guns blazing and brought that nation to its knees! Unfortunately we are at war with radical islamists who are difficult to identify and harder still to attack without risking the lives of innocents who had no part in the original attack.

I can not wait to hear the change in some of your pathetic rhetoric when (not if) we are hit again in the United States. It will be amazing how quickly you will shift your direction on war if it hits close to home!

All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to sit around and do nothing but talk about those who are trying to do something! (intentionally paraphrased)

a) So anyone that oppose the war are "dunderheads" now??? I'll have to add that one to my list....

b) i agree that we fight an ideology instead of an actual nation, thats why we will theoretically never have closure.... we could have troops stationed over there until the Lord comes....

c) i agree that the US will very likely be attacked again, sometime someplace.... another question needs to be asked is why can't we place a higher priority in securing our own borders.... as anyone could get in if they really, really wanted.... and if they can get in, they can cause trouble....

d) all i can do is a) pray for the leaders making the decisions, soldiers bravely involved in military action.... and as a civilian, b) talk about it....

I just wish the goals of this war were more tangible, thus measurable.... eventually the US military is going to be stretched so thin they will lose effectiveness in other areas as well....

[Monkeyman]

Some of you folks blabber and blubber like dunderheads. We are not fighting a nation so much as an ideology. I sorely wish that it had been a nation that attacked us in 2001. Had that been the case this "war" would have long ago been over. We would have retaliated with unrestrained force against a nation, regardless the incidental casualties. We would have gone in with guns blazing and brought that nation to its knees! Unfortunately we are at war with radical islamists who are difficult to identify and harder still to attack without risking the lives of innocents who had no part in the original attack.

I can not wait to hear the change in some of your pathetic rhetoric when (not if) we are hit again in the United States. It will be amazing how quickly you will shift your direction on war if it hits close to home!

All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to sit around and do nothing but talk about those who are trying to do something! (intentionally paraphrased)Speaking of "Dunderheads" Iraq has nothing to do with 911!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is not a war of christian US ideology against radical islamists...it's us butting in a country trying to free that country from an dictator, that was done...guess what charlie, nothing is fixed. WE are only a country that has been in existence for over 200 years, we cannot go in and "fix" a struggle that has been around forever. THE US IS NOT THE WORLD'S POLICE!!!!!!!

How dare you imply that I forgot 911, I was there 1 week before, some of their faces are forever etched in my memory, I have been there many times since to remember fallen heroes.

You guys always try to paint with the same brush for anyone who is against a war. If you even had a clue about me, you would know that I have supported most of the conflicts/wars that this great nation felt to partake in....NOT THIS ONE!! Is Colin Powell unpatriotic and a dunderhead??? Answer yes, and we see your ignorance.

[Ferd]

a) So anyone that oppose the war are "dunderheads" now??? I'll have to add that one to my list....

b) i agree that we fight an ideology instead of an actual nation, thats why we will theoretically never have closure.... we could have troops stationed over there until the Lord comes....

c) i agree that the US will very likely be attacked again, sometime someplace.... another question needs to be asked is why can't we place a higher priority in securing our own borders.... as anyone could get in if they really, really wanted.... and if they can get in, they can cause trouble....

d) all i can do is a) pray for the leaders making the decisions, soldiers bravely involved in military action.... and as a civilian, b) talk about it....

I just wish the goals of this war were more tangible, thus measurable.... eventually the US military is going to be stretched so thin they will lose effectiveness in other areas as well....

if you dont like Dunderhead, you can use "(removed)"

[philjones]

Speaking of "Dunderheads" Iraq has nothing to do with 911!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is not a war of christian US ideaology against radical islamists...it's us butting in a country trying to free that country from an dictator, that was done...guess what charlie, nothing is fixed. WE are only country that has been in existence for over 200 years, we cannot go in and "fix" a struggle that has been around forever. THE US IS NOT THE WORLD'S POLICE!!!!!!!

How dare you imply that I forgot 911, I was there 1 week before, some of their faces are forever etched in my memory, I have been there many times since to remember fallen heroes.

You guys always try to paint with the same brush for anyone who is against a war. If you even had a clue about me, you would know that I have supported most of the conflicts/wars that this great nation felt to partake in....NOT THIS ONE!! Is Colin Powell unpatriotic and a dunderhead??? Answer yes, and we see your ignorance.

Perhaps you have been in Canada too long, Monkeyman... you are starting to sound like a pacifist.

You seem to not understand that there IS a connection between the war in Iraq and the war on terror.

The reason you supported every war we ever fought is because you were not alive for any of them. It is easy to be a historical patriot. How about standing up to be a present patriot? I would love for the USA to be an isolationist nation but that is not possible. Your rhetoric about us butting in is sad.

Further, if you will quit blabbering and blundering you will no longer be behaving LIKE a dunderhead and will not be associated with such.

As for Colin Powell, he like other men has been wrong more than just this once. Call that view ignorant if you like, I call it honest!

:drama

[Monkeyman]

Perhaps you have been in Canada too long, Monkeyman... you are starting to sound like a pacifist.

You seem to not understand that there IS a connection between the war in Iraq and the war on terror.

The reason you supported every war we ever fought is because you were not alive for any of them. It is easy to be a historical patriot. How about standing up to be a present patriot? I would love for the USA to be an isolationist nation but that is not possible. Your rhetoric about us butting in is sad.

Further, if you will quit blabbering and blundering you will no longer be behaving LIKE a dunderhead and will not be associated with such.

As for Colin Powell, he like other men has been wrong more than just this once. Call that view ignorant if you like, I call it honest!

:dramaNaw, ignorant will suffice.

[Malvaro]

Speaking of "Dunderheads" Iraq has nothing to do with 911!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is not a war of christian US ideaology against radical islamists...it's us butting in a country trying to free that country from an dictator, that was done...guess what charlie, nothing is fixed. WE are only country that has been in existence for over 200 years, we cannot go in and "fix" a struggle that has been around forever. THE US IS NOT THE WORLD'S POLICE!!!!!!!

How dare you imply that I forgot 911, I was there 1 week before, I have been there many times since to remember fallen heroes.

You guys always try to paint with the same brush for anyone who is against a war. If you even had a clue about me, you would know that I have supported most of the conflicts/wars that this great nation felt to partake in....NOT THIS ONE!! Is Colin Powell unpatriotic and a dunderhead??? Answer yes, and we see your ignorance.

a) it is Islamic bondage and methods of intimidation vs the Western free world though....

b) i agree that the US has not been commissioned to be the World's Police.... although they have taken that responsibility upon itself many, many times before.... some successes, others failures....

[DividedThigh]

Speaking of "Dunderheads" Iraq has nothing to do with 911!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is not a war of christian US ideology against radical islamists...it's us butting in a country trying to free that country from an dictator, that was done...guess what charlie, nothing is fixed. WE are only a country that has been in existence for over 200 years, we cannot go in and "fix" a struggle that has been around forever. THE US IS NOT THE WORLD'S POLICE!!!!!!!

How dare you imply that I forgot 911, I was there 1 week before, some of their faces are forever etched in my memory, I have been there many times since to remember fallen heroes.

You guys always try to paint with the same brush for anyone who is against a war. If you even had a clue about me, you would know that I have supported most of the conflicts/wars that this great nation felt to partake in....NOT THIS ONE!! Is Colin Powell unpatriotic and a dunderhead??? Answer yes, and we see your ignorance.
hey monkey man, i am not saying that anyone in particuliar is forgetting 911 but i think the country is, and no i dont think iraq is about 911 but al queda is there and it is part of the war on terror, i belive you my brother are a true patriot, as a whole i think people are forgetting what we are up against, dt

[Malvaro]

if you dont like Dunderhead, you can use "(removed)"

your careless use of slang may have just bought you an infraction.....

[Monkeyman]

hey monkey man, i am not saying that anyone in particuliar is forgetting 911 but i think the country is, and no i dont think iraq is about 911 but al queda is there and it is part of the war on terror, i belive you my brother are a true patriot, as a whole i think people are forgetting what we are up against, dtMan, ask anyone here and they will tell you I bleed Red, White, and Blue. Having said that, balance to me is the greatest ideology. To put wholehearted blind trust in leadership just because they are of your political persuasion is wrong. That's why great leaders have the best advisors. The Prez had one in Powell, he should have listened. It is going to cost him his legacy, the nation's credibility, and the Republcan Party in the next election.

[Monkeyman]

I agree that many have forgot 911's impact...I haven't

[philjones]

Naw, ignorant will suffice.

Thanks for you consideration!

You probably think that Muslims are peaceful folks that Love Christians and desire the best for us. You would be wrong about that too.

You, my friend, are the enemy of Islam because you are not OF Islam. If you think Hitler was a threat or that Communism was a threat how can you not see the reality of the threat of Islamists? That is beyond me!

[DividedThigh]

I agree that many have forgot 911's impact...I haven't

i am glad, and on the other we can agree to disagree, dt:Nhl_check

[Ferd]

Let’s get this clear.

The reason we went into Iraq, is that the entire world believe that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Saddam refused to provide evidence that such weapons had been destroyed and refused to provide the appropriate authorities access to such sites to verify the existence or non-existence of WMDs.

Further, Saddam was in Breach of 12 United Nations edicts concerning WMDs in which each of the 12 stated that if he did not comply, force would be used.

In addition, Saddam had already shown the willingness to use WMDs in the past, and had many times stated that he wanted to see the destruction of the United States of America and had attempted to assassinate a former United States President.

In a post 9/11 world, it would have been dereliction of duty for a sitting U. S. President NOT to depose Saddam Hussein.

[Monkeyman]

Further more, I have NOOO problem in our gov't hunting down, using black ops, and wiping out Al Queda or any other group that chooses to bring war to the US. The Iraq war is not doing this.

[Monkeyman]

Thanks for you consideration!

You probably think that Muslims are peaceful folks that Love Christians and desire the best for us. You would be wrong about that too.

You, my friend, are the enemy of Islam because you are not OF Islam. If you think Hitler was a threat or that Communism was a threat how can you not see the reality of the threat of Islamists? That is beyond me!Yes, Phil, thats exactly how I feel...sheesh, what a dunderhead

[Ferd]

Further more, I have NOOO problem in our gov't hunting down, using black ops, and wiping out Al Queda or any other group that chooses to bring war to the US. The Iraq war is not doing this.

I dont think you will get consensus on the above. MANY Al Queda are being killed in Iraq. these people would be trying to get to the USA if we were not in Iraq.

[Monkeyman]

Let’s get this clear.

The reason we went into Iraq, is that the entire world believe that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Saddam refused to provide evidence that such weapons had been destroyed and refused to provide the appropriate authorities access to such sites to verify the existence or non-existence of WMDs.

Further, Saddam was in Breach of 12 United Nations edicts concerning WMDs in which each of the 12 stated that if he did not comply, force would be used.

In addition, Saddam had already shown the willingness to use WMDs in the past, and had many times stated that he wanted to see the destruction of the United States of America and had attempted to assassinate a former United States President.

In a post 9/11 world, it would have been dereliction of duty for a sitting U. S. President NOT to depose Saddam Hussein.
Saddam is DEAD!!! There are no WMD's so its over right???????????? Right???????? Oh, wait, we have to still fight terrorists who want the rule of the country, but we want another group to run it so we will stay...and die. Just like we helped another dude in Afghanistan fight the Iron Curtain...oh wait, he was Osama, hmmmm

[philjones]

Yes, Phil, thats exactly how I feel...sheesh, what a dunderhead

Careful, Malv is passing out infractions and You CALLED me a dunderhead and did not say I was acting like one... :slaphappy:slaphappy

Could this be why my dad always told me not to discuss politics with anyone you wanted to keep as a friend until you knew they agreed with you?:killinme

I dislike your views and opinions but I do NOT dislike you! In fact I love you and pray that your eyes will be opened by something other than another attack! :)

[Monkeyman]

I dont think you will get consensus on the above. MANY Al Queda are being killed in Iraq. these people would be trying to get to the USA if we were not in Iraq.Guess what Ferd, you don't get the consensus that because of freedoms, wealth, religious ideologies, and american political blunders, these terrorists are everywhere not just in Iraq. So, declare war on the whole world now???

[Monkeyman]

Careful, Malv is passing out infractions and You CALLED me a dunderhead and did not say I was acting like one... :slaphappy:slaphappy

Could this be why my dad always told me not to discuss politics with anyone you wanted to keep as a friend until you knew they agreed with you?:killinme

I dislike your views and opinions but I do NOT dislike you! In fact I love you and pray that your eyes will be opened by something other than another attack! :)Good post!:sshhh

[Rico]

So, you both agree that you are dunderheads? Is that what I hear you saying? :D

[Ferd]

Saddam is DEAD!!! There are no WMD's so its over right???????????? Right???????? Oh, wait, we have to still fight terrorists who want the rule of the country, but we want another group to run it so we will stay...and die. Just like we helped another dude in Afghanistan fight the Iron Curtain...oh wait, he was Osama, hmmmm


2 points, please dont try that "history without context" junk with me it makes my eye twitch. UBL was supported by the USA during the cold war when he was not a threat to America but The USSR was bro. dont pull that. it devalues the converstion and I will yell at someone I respect.....


secondly and to the point, we are there post Saddam removal because we have to secure Iraq just like we stayed in German post WW2.

and just for a little extra, knowing now that there are no WMDs does not mean that the entire world thought there were no WMDs. EVERYONE thought they were there.

[Monkeyman]

You guys would laugh if you knew the arguments my bro & I had back in the days of Reagan. If you told him that you thought I was in any way liberal in politics, he would swallow his false teeth. I am republican to the core, but I can admit mistakes.

[Ferd]

Guess what Ferd, you don't get the consensus that because of freedoms, wealth, religious ideologies, and american political blunders, these terrorists are everywhere not just in Iraq. So, declare war on the whole world now???

Monkeyman, come on lets be reasonable. I was just pointing out that not eveyone agrees with you.

[DividedThigh]

2 points, please dont try that "history without context" junk with me it makes my eye twitch. UBL was supported by the USA during the cold war when he was not a threat to America but The USSR was bro. dont pull that. it devalues the converstion and I will yell at someone I respect.....


secondly and to the point, we are there post Saddam removal because we have to secure Iraq just like we stayed in German post WW2.

and just for a little extra, knowing now that there are no WMDs does not mean that the entire world thought there were no WMDs. EVERYONE thought they were there.

good job, ferd, i told you my heart likes you, dt:blah

[Malvaro]

I didn't say that "I" would give any infraction.... I just said it might have earned him one.... its in the review area now.... :D

[Monkeyman]

2 points, please dont try that "history without context" junk with me it makes my eye twitch. UBL was supported by the USA during the cold war when he was not a threat to America but The USSR was bro. dont pull that. it devalues the converstion and I will yell at someone I respect.....


secondly and to the point, we are there post Saddam removal because we have to secure Iraq just like we stayed in German post WW2.

and just for a little extra, knowing now that there are no WMDs does not mean that the entire world thought there were no WMDs. EVERYONE thought they were there.But the country (Iraq) does not agree who should run it, there are 3 factions who will now stop at nothing to rule it...it's not our decision Ferd, it's theirs to make. But they cannot do so, they never will, this has gone on forever, and will continue. They cannot have a democracy there and you know it! Meanwhile back at the ranch people are realizing our mistakes, but because of pride, egos, and wholehearted "Patriotism" we say, continue...it's over Ferd...THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO BESIDES TAKE THE COUNTRY OVER THAT CAN BRING STABILITY. Why would we want to?

[Ferd]

You guys would laugh if you knew the arguments my bro & I had back in the days of Reagan. If you told him that you thought I was in any way liberal in politics, he would swallow his false teeth. I am republican to the core, but I can admit mistakes.

me too!

we HAVE made mistakes in Iraq! i was very disheartened to discover the basic tactic in Iraq was almost EXACTLY what got our collective butts handed to us in Vietnam!

We fought hard battles in places like Feluga (sp) and got the bad guys out, but then we left and allowed them to move back in. how stupid? that is GWBs fault and the reason we are having this disscussion right now.

The new course is to take and hold and there seem to be some successes.

[Monkeyman]

I didn't say that "I" would give any infraction.... I just said it might have earned him one.... its in the review area now.... :Duh-oh...who is on review???

[Ferd]

But the country (Iraq) does not agree who should run it, there are 3 factions who will now stop at nothing to rule it...it's not our decision Ferd, it's theirs to make. But they cannot do so, they never will, this has gone on forever, and will continue. They cannot have a democracy there and you know it! Meanwhile back at the ranch people are realizing our mistakes, but because of pride, egos, and wholehearted "Patriotism" we say, continue...it's over Ferd...THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO BESIDES TAKE THE COUNTRY OVER THAT CAN BRING STABILITY. Why would we want to?

If it is there decision, then we need to listen to them, the elected officials in Iraq have said repeatedly they want us there.

we may very well get to the point where we have to leave and let chaos rule. I dont think we are there yet...objectively

[Monkeyman]

If it is there decision, then we need to listen to them, the elected officials in Iraq have said repeatedly they want us there.

we may very well get to the point where we have to leave and let chaos rule. I dont think we are there yet...objectivelyWell, you and I who are NOT dunderheads have come to two different conclusions. Now, who wins the All Star game, east or West??:slaphappy

[Malvaro]

uh-oh...who is on review???

not you.... don't worry about it....

quite possibly nothing at all.... just a slang word I personally wouldn't have used....

[philjones]

Well, you and I who are NOT dunderheads have come to two different conclusions. Now, who wins the All Star game, east or West??:slaphappy

Now that last comment sounded like a REAL dunderhead! East or West.. good grief... you have been in the North country too long!:slaphappy:slaphappy

[Monkeyman]

Good, but I still apologize for calling Phil a dunderhead!

[Monkeyman]

Now that last comment sounded like a REAL dunderhead! East or West.. good grief... you have been in the North country too long!:slaphappy:slaphappyHahahahahahaha!!! NBA maybe? Sheesh, what a dunderhead type of thing for me to do...I meant American/National, duh!

[Malvaro]

Well, you and I who are NOT dunderheads have come to two different conclusions. Now, who wins the All Star game, east or West??:slaphappy

the All Star North :D

[philjones]

Good, but I still apologize for calling Phil a dunderhead!

Apology accepted and I apologize of saying that you were acting like one!

I am not too sure, however, that I can retract my last DH reference to the baseball comment!:killinme

[DividedThigh]

Good, but I still apologize for calling Phil a dunderhead!

i would just like to say that you two are very entertaining, dt:slaphappy

[Monkeyman]

the All Star North :DWell, Rios from the Blue Jays (Toronto) almost won the Home Run Derby!:killinme

[philjones]

Apology accepted and I apologize of saying that you were acting like one!

I am not too sure, however, that I can retract my last DH reference to the baseball comment!:killinme

Well, since you corrected the error of your way, i will retract that DH like statement as well!

[philjones]

In answer to the pressing question, I am afraid that my beloved Nationals will once again go down to defeat... too many dingers in dugout of the American League.

[DividedThigh]

In answer to the pressing question, I am afraid that my beloved Nationals will once again go down to defeat... too many dingers in dugout of the American League.

come on phil, have a little faith baby, dt

[Monkeyman]

i would just like to say that you two are very entertaining, dt:slaphappyMy brother is an Apostolic Prof at Arizona State University. He did Poly Sci at Yale, and is smarter than all of us put together....yet....dumb as I am, I would never give him a break for his left liberal politics!! When he comes up to visit, my wife will leave the room, not understanding that we can discuss (yell actually) politics and still love each other. Her family is quite reserved, he he!

[Monkeyman]

come on phil, have a little faith baby, dtThats it, speak it!!!!! The National League shall rise again!

[DividedThigh]

My brother is an Apostolic Prof at Arizona State University. He did Poly Sci at Yale, and is smarter than all of us put together....yet....dumb as I am, I would never give him a break for his left liberal politics!! When he come up to visit, my wife will leave the room, not understanding that we can discuss (yell actually) politics and still love each other. Her family is quite reserved, he he!

i am sure your brothere is very smart, and has a lot of credentials that is great, but you dont know who you are talking to, although i will confess that i have never met a liberal that doesnt think he is the smartest in the room, dt:killinme

[Malvaro]

Well, Rios from the Blue Jays (Toronto) almost won the Home Run Derby!:killinme

I packaged Rios and Hudson into a trade for an elite closer.... i think I came out good in that trade.... closer is getting me good ERA, WHIP and saves....

[DividedThigh]

Thats it, speak it!!!!! The National League shall rise again!

i believe i felt the spirit when i read that, dt:Nhl_check

[Malvaro]

Yankees Monopoly - http://www.amazon.com/USAopoly-00149-Yankees-Monopoly/dp/B0001W958A

good Christmas present idea for Malvaro

[Monkeyman]

I packaged Rios and Hudson into a trade for an elite closer.... i think I came out good in that trade.... closer is getting me good ERA, WHIP and saves....I don't think Rios has even scratched the surface on how good he will be. He still has more growing to do and POW, he will be a menace!

[philjones]

My brother is an Apostolic Prof at Arizona State University. He did Poly Sci at Yale, and is smarter than all of us put together....yet....dumb as I am, I would never give him a break for his left liberal politics!! When he come up to visit, my wife will leave the room, not understanding that we can discuss (yell actually) politics and still love each other. Her family is quite reserved, he he!

MM,

My oldest son is like your brother in many ways... too smart for his own good.. Harvard undergrad, Yale Law, on sabbatical from a prestigious LA/NY law firm while clerking for a federal judge and liberal to the nth...

He went to debate camp at American University in the DC area and the first thing he told me when he came in the back door was Pop, I'm a liberal!

I almost had him converted back when he got his first pay check while a Sr. in high school and saw the taxes taken out... Now he claims to be a fiscal conservative and (a)moral liberal!

When we are together as a family my wife hides out in the back room because she knows the fur is going to fly and she is afraid I am going to wound our relationship.:slaphappy

[DividedThigh]

MM,

My oldest son is like your brother in many ways... too smart for his own good.. Harvard undergrad, Yale Law, on sabbatical from a prestigious LA/NY law firm while clerking for a federal judge and liberal to the nth...

He went to debate camp at American University in the DC area and the first thing he told me when he came in the back door was Pop, I'm a liberal!

I almost had him converted back when he got his first pay check while a Sr. in high school and saw the taxes taken out... Now he claims to be a fiscal conservative and (a)moral liberal!

When we are together as a family my wife hides out in the back room because she knows the fur is going to fly and she is afraid I am going to wound our relationship.:slaphappy
dotn stop praying for him phil man the lord can do miracles even in a liberal heart, he just can, dt:winkgrin

[Monkeyman]

MM,

My oldest son is like your brother in many ways... too smart for his own good.. Harvard undergrad, Yale Law, on sabbatical from a prestigious LA/NY law firm while clerking for a federal judge and liberal to the nth...

He went to debate camp at American University in the DC area and the first thing he told me when he came in the back door was Pop, I'm a liberal!

I almost had him converted back when he got his first pay check while a Sr. in high school and saw the taxes taken out... Now he claims to be a fiscal conservative and (a)moral liberal!

When we are together as a family my wife hides out in the back room because she knows the fur is going to fly and she is afraid I am going to wound our relationship.:slaphappyHe he, good bro, keep reaching, he will straighten out fo sho!!!!!

[Malvaro]

I don't think Rios has even scratched the surface on how good he will be. He still has more growing to do and POW, he will be a menace!
you're right.... and if i was in a keeper league, i would have kept him....

he'll be a 35-40HR/100-110RBI/.290-.300BA banger for the next 10 years....

[Monkeyman]

MM,

My oldest son is like your brother in many ways... too smart for his own good.. Harvard undergrad, Yale Law, on sabbatical from a prestigious LA/NY law firm while clerking for a federal judge and liberal to the nth...

He went to debate camp at American University in the DC area and the first thing he told me when he came in the back door was Pop, I'm a liberal!

I almost had him converted back when he got his first pay check while a Sr. in high school and saw the taxes taken out... Now he claims to be a fiscal conservative and (a)moral liberal!

When we are together as a family my wife hides out in the back room because she knows the fur is going to fly and she is afraid I am going to wound our relationship.:slaphappyI know I'll get in trouble with some but I couldn't resist, the last time he visited Canada, I bought him a Cuban cigar! I said for him to smuggle it back home to match his politics!!!! The sissy threw it out, haw!

[philjones]

I know I'll get in trouble with some but I couldn't resist, the last time he visited Canada, I bought him a Cuban cigar! I said for him to smuggle it back home to match his politics!!!! The sissy threw it out, haw!

They're mostly all talk... you proved it!:killinme

[Ferd]

Well, you and I who are NOT dunderheads have come to two different conclusions. Now, who wins the All Star game, east or West??:slaphappy

There is the Sr Circut and then there is real baseball. I always go for REAL BASEBALL!

[Ferd]

not you.... don't worry about it....

quite possibly nothing at all.... just a slang word I personally wouldn't have used....

...which is why I offered you "(removed)" it is a really nice sounding work no?

[DividedThigh]

There is the Sr Circut and then there is real baseball. I always go for REAL BASEBALL!

my heart is drifting ferd, dont ever mess with my cards, dt:igotit

[Ferd]

my heart is drifting ferd, dont ever mess with my cards, dt:igotit

LOL! your revenge is that I am a Rangers fan.

[DividedThigh]

LOL! your revenge is that I am a Rangers fan.

well there you have it, sorry for you, and the rangers, lol, dt:killinme

[Ferd]

well there you have it, sorry for you, and the rangers, lol, dt:killinme

Being a Rangers fan might be worse than being a Cubs fan. we even have Sammy.

Now that they have started playing a little better, all talk of breaking it up and starting over seems to be going out the window.

they really do need to have a fire sell and rebuild. this team is bound for bad baseball for a long time to come.

[BrotherEastman]

LOL! your revenge is that I am a Rangers fan.
Who's that? LOL! Do they play basketball?

[Ferd]

Who's that? LOL! Do they play basketball?

Easty, stop trying to be an Ultra Con! we both know you are a secret organized sports fanatic!

[DividedThigh]

Easty, stop trying to be an Ultra Con! we both know you are a secret organized sports fanatic!

another closet upc sports watcher, come on out where the sun is shining, lol,dt:killinme

[Ory]

My ( An U.S. Army Iraq War Veteran) views on these two ongoing wars.

There are many great and moral people that are in the military who believe that they are doing what is right under God. The problem is that it is the government leaders who decide the use of our military. It is ultimately the will of the current government leaders who decided the outcome of military action. Usually these leaders don't even see war. It is our military and the foreign country which they occupy that has to suffer the pains of war.

Sometimes it is good to be blunt and sometimes it is not, so I am going to take a chance and be blunt on this one. I do think that the Military is now being used for evil. I don't know if many people realize it or not but the president is the commander and chief of the Army forces. Our president Obama has clearly shown how he feels about Jesus Christ (although I am not saying this to judge Him, I wish that he would turn to God).

As far to my knowledge there were never WMDs found in Iraqi - which means the thousands/ maybe even millions of Iraqis died for no reason. On the initial invasion we bombed Iraq all night. We did to them probably 10 fold the damage that happened to us in 911.

Also -- after the invasion many Iraqi military personal where taken after they surrendered. This was th time to where we were on the hunt for MWDs, so if we never found those weapons then what are we holding the Iraqi Solider's for who surrender during the initial invasion?


There is ALOT that doesn't add up. All I know is that we all need to try to get right with God. :)

About 911 . My heart goes out to the families of the people who died in the 911 attack. However I do not believe that a man who lives on the other side of the world in a cave (Osama) with no running water is able to penetrate the one of the most advanced technological defense systems on the face of the planet or is able to house a lab that stores anthrax with the ability to ship it. The more facts I research the more about 911 that just does not add up.


The military - Honestly I cannot say right now if that is the best place to be at this time. Our last and our current presidents have agendas that I am not so sure about. Honestly I do not think that Bush's intentions where genuine in this Iraq War. There are so many things about the Iraq War and 911 that just don't add up and Obama says that he is Christian, but I have heard him make fun and mock God's word in a speech.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPIr5qJEtP0


What scares me about this is that this is president is the commander and chief of the armed forces. So if he is against Jesus Christ, and he commands the military, well does that make his command decisions against God?

It’s all screwed up. I am not pointing fingers, but we have screwed up leaders who lie to us (the military) and make us thing that we are fighting for a good cause. It is all so confusing b/c personal agendas are mixed in with truth.


For example:

Was Iraq a treat to the United States?

My answer is no. After we bombed and killed thousands and after thousand of our military where killed we found out that he did not have MWDs. As a result the people hate us (the military) for killing their families during the initial bombing of Iraq and continued military operations. The truth is that if another country came here to the to the United States and killed our family members for something that they did not have ( MWDs) I am sure that people would stand and fight the opposing country (please do not get me wrong, I am not saying that it is right to take revenge, but the reality is, is that I do believe that most people would do it). Our president orders us to go over there and of course the people who hate us shoot and make IEDs at us for revenge. As a result we shoot back to defend ourselves, and raid buildings in search for IEDs. This creates a non-ending the cycle of death and hate repeats itself as the Iraqi civilians and the military pays the price with their lives while the people who declared war sleep peaceful in their beds.


Was Saddam a bad man to his people?

Well I have to say yes ( but he was not a treat to the United States). I don't say this just b/c of something I heard or read about, I have talked an Iraqi FPS and he have told me stories of what Saddam did to the Iraqis.


Now we are stuck because I think it would be kind a wrong to just pull out of Iraq after all of the damaged we have caused and because of all the Iraqi people who may need our help; but at the same time our mere presence in Iraq brings trouble ( b/c it all goes back to that cycle of death).

So you see my friends, it’s all twisted up.


It is kind of twisted because it is an endless cycle of death. The reality is that those people are going to hate us because of the deaths that they have suffered during the initial invasion.

They fire at the military for revenge ( for the death of their families and loved ones) and of course if you shoot at the military they are going to shoot back to defend themselves.

I know that no everyone believes in God, but I do and my belief/ morals are based on the Bible ( KJV). Every ones knows a famous quote made by Jesus:

“Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” – Matthew 26:52 ( KJV)

After Iraqis loose family members due to military action they may feel like there is nothing left to live for and choose to “live by the sword” by firing ( or using IEDs) on American troops. As a result our troops fire back and perform more combat ops to search for IEDs, insurgent actively etc. Of course during combat ops more Soldiers and Iraqis are killed and the surviving ones (Iraqis) seek to “live by the sword” to avenge the death of their loved ones.

See where this is going? It becomes an endless cycle of death that merely repeats itself over and over again.

Even though I think Bush had an personal agenda in this war, we are like at a catch 22 now. I don’t think that we should have gone it but if we pull straight out we leave Iraqi completely open because they do not have a strong governing authority. One the other hand the longer we stay the longer that American G.I. – Iraqi cycle of death continues.

It kind of reminds me of the Roman coliseums back in the day. Where Roman leaders threw people in a pit and they were told to fight to the death- in this case those people are the American G.I.s and the Iraqi people.

My heart goes out to the military personnel, Iraqis and Afghan people who are caught up in the middle of all of this.


Sometimes it is good to be blunt and sometimes it is not, so I am going to take a chance and be blunt on this one. I do think that the Military is now being used for evil. I don't know if many people realize it or not but the president is the commander and chief of the Army forces. Our president Obama has clearly shown how he feels about Jesus Christ (although I am not saying this to judge Him, I wish that he would turn to God).

As far to my knowledge there were never WMDs found in Iraqi - which means the thousands/ maybe even millions of Iraqis died for no reason. On the initial invasion we bombed Iraq all night. We did to them probably 10 fold the damage that happened to us in 911.

Also – after the invasion many Iraqi military personal where taken after they surrendered. This was th time to where we were on the hunt for MWDs, so if we found that Iraqi


There is ALOT that doesn’t add up. All I know is that we all need to try to get right with God. :)

About 911 - I do not believe that a man who live on the other side of the world in a cave (Osama) with no running water is able to penetrate the one of the most advanced technological defense systems on the face of the planet or is able to house a lab that stores anthrax with the ability to ship it.


What I do know is that because of “the war on terror” the U.S. government was sort of given itself the ability to rage war on any group of people of any religious faith etc. And attempt to justify it by identifying it as part of the War or terror” – something to think about.


…much love in Christ

[scotty]

:bigbaby

[Jermyn Davidson]

What scares me about this is that this is president is the commander and chief of the armed forces. So if he is against Jesus Christ, and he commands the military, well does that make his command decisions against God?

It’s all screwed up. I am not pointing fingers, but we have screwed up leaders who lie to us (the military) and make us thing that we are fighting for a good cause. It is all so confusing b/c personal agendas are mixed in with truth.


For example:

Was Iraq a treat to the United States?

My answer is no.

…much love in Christ


Are you an Apostolic?

Are you a solid, dyed in the wool Apostolic?

If so, for how long?

[Ory]

My ( An U.S. Army Iraq War Veteran) views on these two ongoing wars.

There are many great and moral people that are in the military who believe that they are doing what is right under God. The problem is that it is the government leaders who decide the use of our military. It is ultimately the will of the current government leaders who decided the outcome of military action. Usually these leaders don't even see war. It is our military and the foreign country which they occupy that has to suffer the pains of war.

Sometimes it is good to be blunt and sometimes it is not, so I am going to take a chance and be blunt on this one. I do think that the Military is now being used for evil. I don't know if many people realize it or not but the president is the commander and chief of the Army forces. Our president Obama has clearly shown how he feels about Jesus Christ (although I am not saying this to judge Him, I wish that he would turn to God).

As far to my knowledge there were never WMDs found in Iraqi - which means the thousands/ maybe even millions of Iraqis died for no reason. On the initial invasion we bombed Iraq all night. We did to them probably 10 fold the damage that happened to us in 911.

Also -- after the invasion many Iraqi military personal where taken after they surrendered. This was th time to where we were on the hunt for MWDs, so if we never found those weapons then what are we holding the Iraqi Solider's for who surrender during the initial invasion?


There is ALOT that doesn't add up. All I know is that we all need to try to get right with God. :)

About 911 . My heart goes out to the families of the people who died in the 911 attack. However I do not believe that a man who lives on the other side of the world in a cave (Osama) with no running water is able to penetrate the one of the most advanced technological defense systems on the face of the planet or is able to house a lab that stores anthrax with the ability to ship it. The more facts I research the more about 911 that just does not add up.


The military - Honestly I cannot say right now if that is the best place to be at this time. Our last and our current presidents have agendas that I am not so sure about. Honestly I do not think that Bush's intentions where genuine in this Iraq War. There are so many things about the Iraq War and 911 that just don't add up and Obama says that he is Christian, but I have heard him make fun and mock God's word in a speech.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPIr5qJEtP0


What scares me about this is that this is president is the commander and chief of the armed forces. So if he is against Jesus Christ, and he commands the military, well does that make his command decisions against God?

It’s all screwed up. I am not pointing fingers, but we have screwed up leaders who lie to us (the military) and make us thing that we are fighting for a good cause. It is all so confusing b/c personal agendas are mixed in with truth.


For example:

Was Iraq a treat to the United States?

My answer is no. After we bombed and killed thousands and after thousand of our military where killed we found out that he did not have MWDs. As a result the people hate us (the military) for killing their families during the initial bombing of Iraq and continued military operations. The truth is that if another country came here to the to the United States and killed our family members for something that they did not have ( MWDs) I am sure that people would stand and fight the opposing country (please do not get me wrong, I am not saying that it is right to take revenge, but the reality is, is that I do believe that most people would do it). Our president orders us to go over there and of course the people who hate us shoot and make IEDs at us for revenge. As a result we shoot back to defend ourselves, and raid buildings in search for IEDs. This creates a non-ending the cycle of death and hate repeats itself as the Iraqi civilians and the military pays the price with their lives while the people who declared war sleep peaceful in their beds.


Was Saddam a bad man to his people?

Well I have to say yes ( but he was not a treat to the United States). I don't say this just b/c of something I heard or read about, I have talked an Iraqi FPS and he have told me stories of what Saddam did to the Iraqis.


Now we are stuck because I think it would be kind a wrong to just pull out of Iraq after all of the damaged we have caused and because of all the Iraqi people who may need our help; but at the same time our mere presence in Iraq brings trouble ( b/c it all goes back to that cycle of death).

So you see my friends, it’s all twisted up.


It is kind of twisted because it is an endless cycle of death. The reality is that those people are going to hate us because of the deaths that they have suffered during the initial invasion.

They fire at the military for revenge ( for the death of their families and loved ones) and of course if you shoot at the military they are going to shoot back to defend themselves.

I know that no everyone believes in God, but I do and my belief/ morals are based on the Bible ( KJV). Every ones knows a famous quote made by Jesus:

“Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” – Matthew 26:52 ( KJV)

After Iraqis loose family members due to military action they may feel like there is nothing left to live for and choose to “live by the sword” by firing ( or using IEDs) on American troops. As a result our troops fire back and perform more combat ops to search for IEDs, insurgent actively etc. Of course during combat ops more Soldiers and Iraqis are killed and the surviving ones (Iraqis) seek to “live by the sword” to avenge the death of their loved ones.

See where this is going? It becomes an endless cycle of death that merely repeats itself over and over again.

Even though I think Bush had an personal agenda in this war, we are like at a catch 22 now. I don’t think that we should have gone it but if we pull straight out we leave Iraqi completely open because they do not have a strong governing authority. One the other hand the longer we stay the longer that American G.I. – Iraqi cycle of death continues.

It kind of reminds me of the Roman coliseums back in the day. Where Roman leaders threw people in a pit and they were told to fight to the death- in this case those people are the American G.I.s and the Iraqi people.

My heart goes out to the military personnel, Iraqis and Afghan people who are caught up in the middle of all of this.


Sometimes it is good to be blunt and sometimes it is not, so I am going to take a chance and be blunt on this one. I do think that the Military is now being used for evil. I don't know if many people realize it or not but the president is the commander and chief of the Army forces. Our president Obama has clearly shown how he feels about Jesus Christ (although I am not saying this to judge Him, I wish that he would turn to God).

As far to my knowledge there were never WMDs found in Iraqi - which means the thousands/ maybe even millions of Iraqis died for no reason. On the initial invasion we bombed Iraq all night. We did to them probably 10 fold the damage that happened to us in 911.

Also – after the invasion many Iraqi military personal where taken after they surrendered. This was th time to where we were on the hunt for MWDs, so if we found that Iraqi


There is ALOT that doesn’t add up. All I know is that we all need to try to get right with God. :)

About 911 - I do not believe that a man who live on the other side of the world in a cave (Osama) with no running water is able to penetrate the one of the most advanced technological defense systems on the face of the planet or is able to house a lab that stores anthrax with the ability to ship it.


What I do know is that because of “the war on terror” the U.S. government was sort of given itself the ability to rage war on any group of people of any religious faith etc. And attempt to justify it by identifying it as part of the War or terror” – something to think about.


…much love in Christ


My mistake on the Obama. It appears that the author of the vid threw it out of context. I don't know if Obama truly is or isn't a Christian but the full speech ( well at least this is suppose to be the speech) can be found below.



http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barackobama.com%2F2006%2F 06%2F28%2Fcall_to_renewal_keynote_address.php&h=56af7hulcxT7XOB1gm106QAPUzA


.. as far as the way I feel about the war..... I am perplexed

[BroMatt]

As a Vietnam era Vet, I can tell you sometimes things can really get messed up, and supporting the troops can be one thing, while supporting a war (or the reason for the war) can be another.

Jesus didn't make it easy on the soldiers either....

Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Do voilence to no man?? That is the very defination of a soldier's job! and then...be content with your wages!! The road to riches has never been paved with a soldier's wages.

I support the troops, let's bring them home, to be with their families.

[Cindy]

Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

I don't think Jesus was talking about the soldier's jobs as violence. I think he was talking about outside of the job. Or why would he then say, don't accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages?

[BroMatt]

The soldier's job is to kill on command, based on some kind of battlefield rules, but still the job is to kill. That is violence in it's purest form, and in a most deadly display.

If I was a mob hit man, would Jesus be saying, "when you are NOT at work, be gentle and kind to everyone"? Jesus called fishermen from their jobs, tax collectors from their jobs, prostitutes from their jobs, why would he not call a soldier from his job?

Soldier/policemen were the kind used in that day, a military force occupying to maintain order. As such, should they false accuse someone, that person would be or could be arrested and examined by being whipped, even if they were innocent.

I am not trying to imply our soldiers are evil, however, having been a soldier, the training is to kill, the expectation is to kill, and the weight of killing another human being takes a terrible toll, even many years later.

A couple of my sons were in Iraq and Afganistan, and one of them is really struggling with mental/emotional issues, and was brought back early because of this problem. We are not designed of God to handle the weight of guilt and justification, we must have a clear picture of right and wrong, if it is/was wrong, we can repent, and find closure in God, however, if it was justified (hence somehow not wrong), we find obtaining closure very difficult.

Wielding deadly force also has collateral damage issues. Even if you are able to feel completely justified, should a child be killed by your hand while fighting others soldiers (and more non combatants die than soldiers in war), the weight of it might prove far too heavy to bear alone.

So I say, support the soldier's and their families, not just when they are on the battlefield, but maybe more so, after that they return and are trying to deal with what they saw and what they did.

[scotty]

Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

I don't think Jesus was talking about the soldier's jobs as violence. I think he was talking about outside of the job. Or why would he then say, don't accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages?

This is the way I see it also. In that day just as today, some soldiers use their power to torment the innocent. It has been noted through all the major wars.

[Jay]

I supported the war, and in many ways I still do. The only problem that I have is that we truly did not win this war, nor do we have the guts to do so. This is why they will always have the advantage. The only way to win is to be willing to have your name go down in history is a monster. Sometimes it takes a monster to fight monsters. They attack our women and children with impunity and abuse the prisoners that they take, but we do not do the same. This leads to their advantage for they will do whatever it takes to win, and we will not. The moral high ground is ours, but until Jesus come to fix this mess, we will always have the worse position in this war.

[riverslivnwtr]

My dear friends you need to take a good look at Revelation 6:14-17..it is mentioned immediately after God comforts the martyrs of Jesus..Here in verse 14 we have a description of the heaven opening up like a scroll..and the men on the battlefield get a glimpse of heaven and are terrified..at the judgment they are facing.... this is the scene at every war and battle ....

We can understand this because those who return from wars often carry the weight of an unknown's blood no matter what that person was (the enemy) he was still a human being..I find it amazing that after 5 centuries of bible reading for our own selves we still have not understood this. :foottap

[riverslivnwtr]

War is wrong. We should all be non-resistant and let hell take over and kill us all.

yeah like it did so to all the Martyrs of Jesus in Revelation 6:9-11..:laffatu

one thing about them we know that their names are written in the Lambs book of life..where as those who followed in verses 14-17 have a different outlook..

[deafdriscoll]

I always support our troops no matter what. They are there because they are told to go. In the beginning I believed iraq was a threat. Our president had bad planners for the war.It was undermanned and just poor planning. why should our troops pay for poor leadership?
It is time to get out of both countries.
It is time to move on.

[riverslivnwtr]

Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

I don't think Jesus was talking about the soldier's jobs as violence. I think he was talking about outside of the job. Or why would he then say, don't accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages?

Beloved you think Jesus was talking about outside the Job..
someone used the clever argument about using their job for extortion but here's what Jesus said on the matter in other places as
he that kills by the sword must be killed by the sword in Matthew 26:52, In Revelation 6:14-17 right after the martyrs of Jesus are addressed in the previous verses we see the description of Armies and all the people involved..Kings Great men, mighty men, bond, free , crying out to hide themselves from the wrath of the Lamb and from Him that sits on the throne..

My opinion? is that the rolling away of the l heaven as a scroll is where they step off into eternity.. and their first actual glimpse of the Judgment....

In Romans thirteen Paul justifies the very government that would persecute and murder Christians , which also Jesus respected. but did not attribute that to them righteousness only that their order was established to suppress evil doers..They do provide order but they are not righteous and being the work of man are seldom just..

And then there's the part about Jesus when he comes destroying all forces opposed to him being destroyed by the sword (word ) from his mouth..

[deafdriscoll]

If you do an operation you need a plan to get out. We had none.