The Handoff

[Digging4Truth]

It was brought up in another thread that some give their tithe directly to the pastor rather than putting it in the offering.

How many of you do this?
Is it just a habit?
Do you feel this is the right way to do it biblically?
It is just what you do for no specific reason?

I have attended churches where this was the method of delivering tithes... everyone gave their tithe directly to the pastor... generally they would shake his hand after the service (he was at the back door greeting people as they left) and hand him the tithe in the handshake.

[tamor]

:popcorn2 :popcorn2 :popcorn2

[Theresa]

that's nutty IMO

put it in an envelope and designate it - then put it in the plate.


why hand it to the pastor? silly, IMO

you dont trust the usher or the person counting?

[Digging4Truth]

that's nutty IMO

put it in an envelope and designate it - then put it in the plate.


why hand it to the pastor? silly, IMO

you dont trust the usher or the person counting?

:slaphappy

[OP_Carl]

It was brought up in another thread that some give their tithe directly to the pastor rather than putting it in the offering.

How many of you do this?
Is it just a habit?
Do you feel this is the right way to do it biblically?
It is just what you do for no specific reason?

I have attended churches where this was the method of delivering tithes... everyone gave their tithe directly to the pastor... generally they would shake his hand after the service (he was at the back door greeting people as they left) and hand him the tithe in the handshake.

I count it out in dollar bills, and go outside and pitch all the money high into the air. Whatever falls back to earth is mine, and whatever God keeps is the tithe!

:D

[Digging4Truth]

I count it out in dollar bills, and go outside and pitch all the money high into the air. Whatever falls back to earth is mine, and whatever God keeps is the tithe!

:D

Your well thought out and highly substantive reply is appreciated beyond words.

:D

[OP_Carl]

Your well thought out and highly substantive reply is appreciated beyond words.

:D

Every other thread devolves into sarcasm and bickering between the same handful of members . . . why not this one?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

that's nutty IMO

put it in an envelope and designate it - then put it in the plate.


why hand it to the pastor? silly, IMO

you dont trust the usher or the person counting?

AND that brings the entire corporation in close view of an IRS audit and loss of tax free status!

Tithe to the church books and allocation for ministerial salary and allowances (car, home, etc) are taxed different than gifts.

[Digging4Truth]

Every other thread devolves into sarcasm and bickering between the same handful of members . . . why not this one?

One can hope can't they? :)

[Digging4Truth]

AND that brings the entire corporation in close view of an IRS audit and loss of tax free status!

Tithe to the church books and allocation for ministerial salary and allowances (car, home, etc) are taxed different than gifts.

1000 points for this astute observation.

Indeed...

So True...

Amen...

And a plethora of other affirmative statements.

[OP_Carl]

One can hope can't they? :)

Absolutely.

Hope may be found in a remote region of Arkansas. (http://maps.yahoo.com/broadband#mvt=m&q1=hope,%20ar&trf=0&lon=-93.591843&lat=33.66664&mag=8)

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

1000 points for this astute observation.

Indeed...

So True...

Amen...

And a plethora of other affirmative statements.


Let's say you do well, and your Tithe is $1000 a week. You also put in $500 a week in the offering plate. Most of this is cash.

At the end of the audit, you may not be able to deduct the total $69000 (52 times 1500 for you math wizards) as you don't have a receipt!

[Digging4Truth]

Absolutely.

Hope may be found in a remote region of Arkansas. (http://maps.yahoo.com/broadband#mvt=m&q1=hope,%20ar&trf=0&lon=-93.591843&lat=33.66664&mag=8)

Yeah... but you know that Hope hasn't been good to this nation. :)

[OP_Carl]

Yeah... but you know that Hope hasn't been good to this nation. :)

THAT Hope wasn't built on things eternal . . .

[Digging4Truth]

Let's say you do well, and your Tithe is $1000 a week. You also put in $500 a week in the offering plate. Most of this is cash.

At the end of the audit, you may not be able to deduct the total $69000 (52 times 1500 for you math wizards) as you don't have a receipt!

Yes sir... those little envelopes come in handy. :)

I have never bothered with claiming such things on my taxes though.

If I gave an amount anywhere near the amounts you mention above then I might. :)

Currently I would have to give all of my salary... all my wifes salary and borrow some additional money to do that. :)

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Yes sir... those little envelopes come in handy. :)

I have never bothered with claiming such things on my taxes though.

If I gave an amount anywhere near the amounts you mention above then I might. :)

Currently I would have to give all of my salary... all my wifes salary and borrow some additional money to do that. :)

Few churches know they should save offering envelopes for 5 yrs and should give quarterly receipts. I used to keep separate records for "cash loose" as well when I did books for a local section.

[Pragmatist]

AND that brings the entire corporation in close view of an IRS audit and loss of tax free status!

Tithe to the church books and allocation for ministerial salary and allowances (car, home, etc) are taxed different than gifts.

I think Timlan stated one church he pastored gave the tithe directly to him. For tax purposes, I believe he was then a sole proprietor. I'm not sure what the tax implications then are for the giver, but I'm thinking they're out of luck in terms of deductions.

IMO, it is better to set it up the other way.

[Hegavmelif]

I had a UPC Pastor once who required all tithes be paid directly to him. If you paid with cash, they went directly to him - you had to put in an envelope and mark that it was tithes. If you paid with a check, you had to make the check out to him.

The cash was not recorded in the church books as he (pastor) felt the church was not entitled to the funds - they were his according to God's word. And those who paid with a check, his wife took the bank on Monday morning to cash.

Even though the UPC ministerial by-laws required he pay 10% to the district, he did not and this was how he got around it. There was no record of the funds ever going through the church.

He was such a dictator and so controlling he dropped dead with a heart attack at 52. SAD, SAD, SAD.

I had a UPC pastor until recently who (and still does) takes in 1 - 2 million a year in tithes and keeps it all - does whatever he wants with it.

I think this behavior is sinful and wasteful. It is behavior that is totally and completely lacking of discipline and accountability. The two elements that are so important to a Christian as he or she walks with God.

[stmatthew]

I believe that the tithe (10%) is to go to the ministry. BUT I will not be dictated as to how I give my tithe. Even though I most always give in cash, I put it in an envelope along with the offerings, and then I will expect a tax receipt for my donations. I will deduct them at tax time, as it is good stewardship for me to spend my money taking care of needs instead of the government spending it to fund all manner of ungodly things.

[Rico]

Let's say you do well, and your Tithe is $1000 a week. You also put in $500 a week in the offering plate. Most of this is cash.

At the end of the audit, you may not be able to deduct the total $69000 (52 times 1500 for you math wizards) as you don't have a receipt!

A receipt isn't enough for the IRS. They will only accept the envelopes as proof! I could not believe this myself when I found this out. We had an ex-IRS auditor come to a church I used to attend to help the pastor get everything inline with the IRS and this is one of the things he shared with us.

[Digging4Truth]

I believe that the tithe (10%) is to go to the ministry. BUT I will not be dictated as to how I give my tithe. Even though I most always give in cash, I put it in an envelope along with the offerings, and then I will expect a tax receipt for my donations. I will deduct them at tax time, as it is good stewardship for me to spend my money taking care of needs instead of the government spending it to fund all manner of ungodly things.

Great thoughts and thanks for posting...

Is there a scriptural reason you feel that the whole of the tithe goes to the ministry?

[Digging4Truth]

A receipt isn't enough for the IRS. They will only accept the envelopes as proof! I could not believe this myself when I found this out. We had an ex-IRS auditor come to a church I used to attend to help the pastor get everything inline with the IRS and this is one of the things he shared with us.

Very interesting indeed.... I never would have thought that.

The church I grew up in gave us a receipt in an envelope with all of our tithing envelopes in them.

That was decades ago and apparently had some level of foresight.

This is also the church that held a financial meeting once a year and gave an amazingly full and open disclosure of every penny that came in and where it was spent.

[crakjak]

I had a UPC Pastor once who required all tithes be paid directly to him. If you paid with cash, they went directly to him - you had to put in an envelope and mark that it was tithes. If you paid with a check, you had to make the check out to him.

The cash was not recorded in the church books as he (pastor) felt the church was not entitled to the funds - they were his according to God's word. And those who paid with a check, his wife took the bank on Monday morning to cash.

Even though the UPC ministerial by-laws required he pay 10% to the district, he did not and this was how he got around it. There was no record of the funds ever going through the church.

He was such a dictator and so controlling he dropped dead with a heart attack at 52. SAD, SAD, SAD.

I had a UPC pastor until recently who (and still does) takes in 1 - 2 million a year in tithes and keeps it all - does whatever he wants with it.

I think this behavior is sinful and wasteful. It is behavior that is totally and completely lacking of discipline and accountability. The two elements that are so important to a Christian as he or she walks with God.

These hustlers are able to do this only because of ignorant Christians that are easily manipulated. Fortunately, most are not this criminal.

[crakjak]

Very interesting indeed.... I never would have thought that.

The church I grew up in gave us a receipt in an envelope with all of our tithing envelopes in them.

That was decades ago and apparently had some level of foresight.

This is also the church that held a financial meeting once a year and gave an amazingly full and open disclosure of every penny that came in and where it was spent.


Praise the Lord, for those that get it!!!

[RevDWW]

Accountability is not a dirty word!:winkgrin

[Hoovie]

A receipt isn't enough for the IRS. They will only accept the envelopes as proof! I could not believe this myself when I found this out. We had an ex-IRS auditor come to a church I used to attend to help the pastor get everything inline with the IRS and this is one of the things he shared with us.

Sorry, but I don't buy this. A reciept stating the donation was not in exchange for any service/s rendered and a canceled check is perfectly fine.

[stmatthew]

Sorry, but I don't buy this. A reciept stating the donation was not in exchange for any service/s rendered and a canceled check is perfectly fine.

I don't know if Rico was meaning the saint or not. I do know the church must keep the envelope for a period of time for records. I believe Boomm stated somewhere in here it was 5 years.

[ManOfWord]

I'll repeat this again because it is very weighty. According to the IRS, if the pastor has sole control of the finances of the church, tithing acct etc, it is considered income to him and he is liable for the taxes due. Many pastors are not aware of this and could find themselves in great trouble even out of ignorance.

The pastor having people give him the tithes directly is a very foolish practice with possibly grave consequences. If anyone at NLC gives me an offering envelope, I make sure that our treasurer gets it right away or I put it in her church mailbox.

[Rico]

Sorry, but I don't buy this. A reciept stating the donation was not in exchange for any service/s rendered and a canceled check is perfectly fine.

Call the IRS if you don't believe me.

[Digging4Truth]

I'll repeat this again because it is very weighty. According to the IRS, if the pastor has sole control of the finances of the church, tithing acct etc, it is considered income to him and he is liable for the taxes due. Many pastors are not aware of this and could find themselves in great trouble even out of ignorance.

The pastor having people give him the tithes directly is a very foolish practice with possibly grave consequences. If anyone at NLC gives me an offering envelope, I make sure that our treasurer gets it right away or I put it in her church mailbox.

Your continually demonstrated concern for accountability and integrity are refreshing MOW.

[Sweet Pea]

Few churches know they should save offering envelopes for 5 yrs and should give quarterly receipts. I used to keep separate records for "cash loose" as well when I did books for a local section.

BOOM, With technology being what it is today - if these envelopes (or the checks) are scanned will the IRS accept the images? Even banks no longer keep checks. If you want them returned with your statement, all you get are the images.

Our church recently changed accounting programs that uses a system like this and the contribution secretary told me that they scan the envelopes and checks and that is all they need.

And "quarterly receipts?" Why quarterly?

[Trouvere]

I give my tithes in an envelope in the offering.When we went to a smaller assembly I used to drop it by if payday was a few days before church.I knew
my pastors family needed the money.The church secretary would put it on the books and they gave me a yearly receipt.Sounds good to me.I want to support the work of God.That is one of my happiest moments is when I can
put money into the work of God.

[OP_Carl]

Sorry, but I don't buy this. A reciept stating the donation was not in exchange for any service/s rendered and a canceled check is perfectly fine.

The cancelled check does work fine. But only for money provided by check. The envelopes are used to track cash.

[Hoovie]

The cancelled check does work fine. But only for money provided by check. The envelopes are used to track cash.

Oh! Why anyone would use cash is beyond me. There needs to be a real paper trail - just like any other business.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

BOOM, With technology being what it is today - if these envelopes (or the checks) are scanned will the IRS accept the images? Even banks no longer keep checks. If you want them returned with your statement, all you get are the images.

Our church recently changed accounting programs that uses a system like this and the contribution secretary told me that they scan the envelopes and checks and that is all they need.

And "quarterly receipts?" Why quarterly?

I would think scanned envelopes would be fine. I would keep the paper for 6 months also if it were my job.

I am not sure why the quarterly reporting sticks in my mind. I know I have been told this in two churches.

[stmatthew]

Oh! Why anyone would use cash is beyond me. There needs to be a real paper trail - just like any other business.

I use cash because I do just about everything via cash. That is what receipts are for. :)

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I use cash because I do just about everything via cash. That is what receipts are for. :)

Do you hand off your Tithe?

[stmatthew]

Do you hand off your Tithe?

I hand it off to the usher. from there my responsibility is finished.

[Digging4Truth]

I hand it off to the usher. from there my responsibility is finished.

Why would you say that?

So many people say that and I just do not see where that particular mindset is, in any way, being a wise steward of ones money.

What other portion of our giving would we have such a mindset?

[Amos]

Why would you say that?

So many people say that and I just do not see where that particular mindset is, in any way, being a wise steward of ones money.

What other portion of our giving would we have such a mindset?

Please tell us how you interact with your pastor regarding his handling of the tithe, after you give it, that is if you do.

How do you check up on him to make sure "your" money is being properly spent?

That begs a question--is it still "yours" after you give it?

[Rico]

Please tell us how you interact with your pastor regarding his handling of the tithe, after you give it, that is if you do.

How do you check up on him to make sure "your" money is being properly spent?

That begs a question--is it still "yours" after you give it?

Let's say, for example, that your pastor is the kind that takes all the tithes. Let's also say, for example, that your church is in the process of building another church. Would you consider the pastor doubling the square footage of his home, along with buying up several rental properties, and a new Suburban or Avalance every two years for cash, all in the five years it takes to finish a building that should have been completed in 3-6 months tops (because the church didn't have the money) the pastor spending tithe money wisely?

[Amos]

Let's say, for example, that your pastor is the kind that takes all the tithes. Let's also say, for example, that your church is in the process of building another church. Would you consider the pastor doubling the square footage of his home, along with buying up several rental properties, and a new Suburban or Avalance every two years for cash, all in the five years it takes to finish a building that should have been completed in 3-6 months tops (because the church didn't have the money) the pastor spending tithe money wisely?

The scenario you describe doesn't sound proper to me, nor would it to anyone.

My question was what would you do?

If I couldn't trust my pastor, the right thing to do would be leave without causing dissension. Just quietly go elsewhere with a right spirit and a shut mouth.

God keeps good books and He will deal with men of God who misuse His money.

But that is God's department, not ours.

[Hegavmelif]

The scenario you describe doesn't sound proper to me, nor would it to anyone.

My question was what would you do?

If I couldn't trust my pastor, the right thing to do would be leave without causing dissension. Just quietly go elsewhere with a right spirit and a shut mouth.

God keeps good books and He will deal with men of God who misuse His money.

But that is God's department, not ours.


I disagree...Here is why. We are all members of the body of Christ. One body, many members. If you parallel this with the physical body - which we often do with spiritual matters - we know that (as a whole) all MEMBERS are EQUALLY accountable to the body. Therefore, whoever gets the money, or any portion of GOD'S money, should be held accountable to the whole body!!

Someone said it earlier, Accountability is not a dirty word. We need to see more of it in our ministers. But, unfortunately, too many ministers have the arrogant mindset that they are not accountable to anyone. How can a servant of God (any servant of God) take that attitude and disposition without setting him/herself up for failure on some level. Anyone who has been in this movement for for the last twenty years can testify to the down fall and failure of too many of our men in the pulpit.

The minister I referred to in my previous post is losing people left and right and for the last 5 years his church has been a revolving door. Because when people get there, they realize the lack of accountability regarding funds and refuse to be a part of leadership that does not account for the tithes, which is in excess of 1 - 2 million a year.

[Felicity]

The minister I referred to in my previous post is losing people left and right and for the last 5 years his church has been a revolving door. Because when people get there, they realize the lack of accountability regarding funds and refuse to be a part of leadership that does not account for the tithes, which is in excess of 1 - 2 million a year.How can you be sure this is the reason people are leaving the church?

Just wondering.

[Rico]

The scenario you describe doesn't sound proper to me, nor would it to anyone.

My question was what would you do?

If I couldn't trust my pastor, the right thing to do would be leave without causing dissension. Just quietly go elsewhere with a right spirit and a shut mouth.

God keeps good books and He will deal with men of God who misuse His money.

But that is God's department, not ours.

Brother, with God as my witness the very thing I described to you has happened. I saw it happen with my own two eyes.

[Digging4Truth]

Please tell us how you interact with your pastor regarding his handling of the tithe, after you give it, that is if you do.

How do you check up on him to make sure "your" money is being properly spent?

That begs a question--is it still "yours" after you give it?

I really don't approach the pastor about this. (or anyone else for that matter) I'm not sure how I would go about doing that either. Since I don't feel that the tithe is a NT law (although I do see it as a good rule of thumb) then I would also not feel that the specific division of monies laid out in said law is a NT edict either (although, again, I think it would be a good rule of thumb)

Any money I give is no longer mine... nor is it anybody else's per se. It is Gods and it is to be handled as such. If monies are given to the church and then whatever portion of that money is given to the pastor as their pay (for lack of a better word) please don't feel that I have any desire to have any input concerning the way the pastor spends his money. That is not my point at all (and you said nothing to make me thing that either... just making sure that I am not taken in this manner)

I know there is a lot more that you asked but I have come back to this post 4 times already to try and get it completed.... a lot going on at work... maybe this will be a starting point and I can answer any further questions you have.

[Digging4Truth]

The scenario you describe doesn't sound proper to me, nor would it to anyone.

My question was what would you do?

If I couldn't trust my pastor, the right thing to do would be leave without causing dissension. Just quietly go elsewhere with a right spirit and a shut mouth.

God keeps good books and He will deal with men of God who misuse His money.

But that is God's department, not ours.

I also fail to understand this mindset where, in a situation where the pastor might be doing wrong, those who see it should leave.

Shouldn't the one doing wrong be the one gotten rid of?

I am aware that you said nothing above about a pastor doing wrong but the mindset that you should leave if you can't trust the pastor leads there in the end.

[Ronzo]

I used to mail my tithe check to my former pastor if I knew I was going to be out of town and not able to come to church on the Sunday after I got paid. It would come with a kind note asking him if he would please add it to the offering for me since we couldn't be at church.

Only reason I mailed it directly to him, at the church office, is because I knew he'd put it in with the offering for me and I did not directly give it to him when i was there.

[Amos]

I also fail to understand this mindset where, in a situation where the pastor might be doing wrong, those who see it should leave.

Shouldn't the one doing wrong be the one gotten rid of?

I am aware that you said nothing above about a pastor doing wrong but the mindset that you should leave if you can't trust the pastor leads there in the end.

When you get time, explain to me the process you need to go through to get rid of that pastor you believe isn't doing right by the tithe.

[Rico]

When you get time, explain to me the process you need to go through to get rid of that pastor you believe isn't doing right by the tithe.

Haven't you ever heard of holding back tithes to starve the pastor out? The Baptists perfected it! :D

[Hegavmelif]

How can you be sure this is the reason people are leaving the church?

Just wondering.

It is not the only reason, just one of several reason why people leave. When ministers have the mindset that I am not accountable to anyone but God, that mentality gets passed down into other ministries in the church and then the leadership as a whole becomes corrupt with this arrogant "it is my way or no way" mentality. Godly people who are looking to make a church their home and raise their children and grandchildren do not want to be a such mindset.

Again, there are several other reasons why people leave. They hate being talked to like they are second class citizens, they hate being yelled and screamed at, they hate laziness on the part of the leadership who sit around and draw salaries and do nothing, yet expect the saints to do all of the work - and they do for FREE. I was there for over twelve years. So, I saw and experienced a lot.

I could go on and on...

[Digging4Truth]

When you get time, explain to me the process you need to go through to get rid of that pastor you believe isn't doing right by the tithe.

Oh the last 46 times we have just asked them to leave and they complied willingly.

I guess our reputation preceeds ourself.

:slaphappy

[Amos]

Oh the last 46 times we have just asked them to leave and they complied willingly.

I guess our reputation preceeds ourself.

:slaphappy

Please provide me with the Scriptural instruction for getting rid of your pastor.

The "how to" if you will.

[Digging4Truth]

Please provide me with the Scriptural instruction for getting rid of your pastor.

The "how to" if you will.

In the grand total of 26 posts you have earned the honor of the first person ever to make my Ignore List on AFF.

You are discussing nothing.

You are simply hurling question after question which, generally, are not directly related to anything I have actually said (although I did make the 46 pastor comment and noted it as comical and not serious with the appropriate smiley).

This is not a discussion.

This is a constant barrage of vaguely related questions sent, not to discover any truth, but to ridicule, berate and dismiss out of hand what others have to say.

[Amos]

In the grand total of 26 posts you have earned the honor of the first person ever to make my Ignore List on AFF.

You are discussing nothing.

You are simply hurling question after question which, generally, are not directly related to anything I have actually said (although I did make the 46 pastor comment and noted it as comical and not serious with the appropriate smiley).

This is not a discussion.

This is a constant barrage of vaguely related questions sent, not to discover any truth, but to ridicule, berate and dismiss out of hand what others have to say.

Brother,

I am seriously looking for your answer.

You say things like, "Get rid of the one doing the wrong, don't leave yourself."

And then you don't want to explain how you go about doing that.

I guess you will never see this since I am on your ignore list, but I really want to know how you think you should go about deciding that your pastor isn't a good steward of the tithe, and then getting rid of him in a Scriptural manner.

[Steve Epley]

A receipt isn't enough for the IRS. They will only accept the envelopes as proof! I could not believe this myself when I found this out. We had an ex-IRS auditor come to a church I used to attend to help the pastor get everything inline with the IRS and this is one of the things he shared with us.

True the legal document in the eyes of the IRS are the envelopes alone not the reciept. However when filing the reciept is enough but if an audit takes place ONLY the evelopes will suffice now we must keep them for 3 years. However I have them for the thirteen years I have been here.
We have a tithing box at the back of the church the saints place them in there. I wouldn't want them just handing them to me as a practice. It is a form of worship.

[Steve Epley]

Let's say, for example, that your pastor is the kind that takes all the tithes. Let's also say, for example, that your church is in the process of building another church. Would you consider the pastor doubling the square footage of his home, along with buying up several rental properties, and a new Suburban or Avalance every two years for cash, all in the five years it takes to finish a building that should have been completed in 3-6 months tops (because the church didn't have the money) the pastor spending tithe money wisely?

Again OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS.

[Hegavmelif]

True the legal document in the eyes of the IRS are the envelopes alone not the reciept. However when filing the reciept is enough but if an audit takes place ONLY the evelopes will suffice now we must keep them for 3 years. However I have them for the thirteen years I have been here.
We have a tithing box at the back of the church the saints place them in there. I wouldn't want them just handing them to me as a practice. It is a form of worship.

BRAVO! Bro Epley...you hit the nail on the head with..."it is a form of worship."

God does not give an account to us of his actions because he alone IS God. Saints and Pastors are not gods, and we should not make/treat them as such. This is why accountability of all members of the body is the spiritual moral thing to do.