View Full Version : IT is the Holy Ghost!
Praxeas
07-15-2007, 11:08 PM
Once again the gender in language is irrelevant
Duh, Dan what do you think I have been proving all this time. I have said it verbatim. This is my point. The Gender is irrelevant. The ONLY reason masculine pronouns are used ever in the greek is because the noun is masculine, not to show necessarily something has gender. Church, as I stated already, is feminine in the greek and so would take a feminine pronoun but that does not show the church is a woman
Duh, Dan what do you think I have been proving all this time. I have said it verbatim. This is my point. The Gender is irrelevant. The ONLY reason masculine pronouns are used ever in the greek is because the noun is masculine, not to show necessarily something has gender. Church, as I stated already, is feminine in the greek and so would take a feminine pronoun but that does not show the church is a woman
So God has never been referred to as Father throughout scripture... your argument is faulty.
Masculine pronouns must be used for this masculine noun
Duh, Dan what do you think I have been proving all this time. I have said it verbatim. This is my point. The Gender is irrelevant. The ONLY reason masculine pronouns are used ever in the greek is because the noun is masculine, not to show necessarily something has gender. Church, as I stated already, is feminine in the greek and so would take a feminine pronoun but that does not show the church is a woman
The pronoun means nothing but the church is referred to as a Bride [definitely female] and God as the groom ... you are overthinking this one as always
Felicity
07-15-2007, 11:17 PM
I can't.
I'm eating a banana split! :p
<------ Female Characteristic?? :slaphappyWhat's a female characteristic? Eating a banana split? Men don't eat them? LOL! :)
The bible never calls God a male. Rather it just uses masculine pronouns, but it also uses a feminine noun for Spirit. Does that make the Holy Spirit a female?
Is Jesus male or isn't He?
Whatevah! :killinme
So, I love mirrors. They bring in and reflect more light. I like that.
Oh please! Just admit you like checking yourself out in the mirror and be done with it! Reflecting light..............yeah right! :winkgrin
Is Jesus male or isn't He?
Its amazing to hear an OP like Prax dance around this one ... when he's familiar with our oneness arguments about the person of Jesus Christ ... and the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Ghost.
Pressing-On
07-15-2007, 11:24 PM
Oh please! Just admit you like checking yourself out in the mirror and be done with it! Reflecting light..............yeah right! :winkgrin
And just think what a waste - I don't even wear makeup! :killinme
Its amazing to here an OP like Prax dance around this one ... when he's familiar with our oneness arguments about the person of Jesus Christ ... and the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Ghost.
I can not believe this is even an issue. It seems so absurd. I mean, good grief, who cares whether God has reproductive organs to prove he's male? DUH?!?!?!
Pressing-On
07-15-2007, 11:26 PM
The pronoun means nothing but the church is referred to as a Bride [definitely female] and God as the groom ... you are overthinking this one as always
I had someone tell us the other day that we weren't the Bride of Christ.
I have no idea after he explained what he meant - what he meant! LOL
I just smiled at him until he ran out of air. :D
And just think what a waste - I don't even wear makeup! :killinme
I don't wear makeup either, but I am just so good looking that I can't help but notice myself when I walk by a mirror! :D
Pressing-On
07-15-2007, 11:27 PM
I can not believe this is even an issue. It seems so absurd. I mean, good grief, who cares whether God has reproductive organs to prove he's male? DUH?!?!?!
That's what I've been thinking and especially since it's 12:30 a.m. :killinme
I think I'm going to bed. :bedtime
Pressing-On
07-15-2007, 11:28 PM
I don't wear makeup either, but I am just so good looking that I can't help but notice myself when I walk by a mirror! :D
Well, brother, I have plenty to go around. Wait, they are a special collection. Forget it. Get your own! :killinme
I can not believe this is even an issue. It seems so absurd. I mean, good grief, who cares whether God has reproductive organs to prove he's male? DUH?!?!?!
If the pronouns don't matter in describing nouns like Father and bridegroom ... then we matter's well start calling God an it or she ... who gives a flying fajita, right, Prax????
Praxeas
07-15-2007, 11:51 PM
So God has never been referred to as Father throughout scripture... your argument is faulty.
Masculine pronouns must be used for this masculine noun
Duh, you are just repeating what I said Dan and thinking you won some dumb point. This is just want I said. Masculine pronouns MUST be used for that masculine noun. That is exactly what I have been saying. The gender of words were not meant to show gender of the person anymore than a feminine Hebrew word for Spirit meant to show God's Spirit is a woman.
BTW I never said God was never referred to as Father throughout scriptures nor did I say God was never referred to as a He. Dan your posts lately have been just plain weird....
Praxeas
07-15-2007, 11:53 PM
The pronoun means nothing but the church is referred to as a Bride [definitely female] and God as the groom ... you are overthinking this one as always
Once again Dan reiterates my point, thinking It's only his and that he is somehow refuting mine lol
This is once again, exactly my point. These gender specific nouns and pronouns are not necessarily relevant to showing us something has gender. The example I gave was church which is feminine and takes a feminine pronoun, thus proving my point that this does NOT prove the church is a woman. Maybe it's you that is overthinking here
Praxeas
07-15-2007, 11:54 PM
Is Jesus male or isn't He?
Back to where we were before, discussing God in His Spirit, not God incarnate the MAN Christ Jesus. We were discussing How God is described in the Old Testament.
Praxeas
07-15-2007, 11:55 PM
Its amazing to hear an OP like Prax dance around this one ... when he's familiar with our oneness arguments about the person of Jesus Christ ... and the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Ghost.
Please explain what it is you think I am dancing around? I never denied Jesus the man is a male.
Back to where we were before, discussing God in His Spirit, not God incarnate the MAN Christ Jesus. We were discussing How God is described in the Old Testament.
Where is Jesus now?
No more red herrings for me Praxeas ... this practice of yours is underwhelming
Praxeas
07-15-2007, 11:56 PM
I can not believe this is even an issue. It seems so absurd. I mean, good grief, who cares whether God has reproductive organs to prove he's male? DUH?!?!?!
Hey, I didn't start this thread and here you are discussing it like the rest of us.
The topic here is the Spirit, not the flesh.
deseret
07-15-2007, 11:56 PM
According to this Praxeas character, God created the Y chromosome. That is interesting.
Hey, I didn't start this thread and here you are discussing it like the rest of us.
The topic here is the Spirit, not the flesh.
and whether or not the scriptures support the use of it ... to describe the Spirit of God ...
I have proven apparently that some translators play w/ the language and original intent of the writers ...
Praxeas
07-15-2007, 11:59 PM
I had someone tell us the other day that we weren't the Bride of Christ.
I have no idea after he explained what he meant - what he meant! LOL
I just smiled at him until he ran out of air. :D
Nobody said we aren't the bride of Christ, but the point was, before Dan twisted it, is that many greek words have gender and that does not make something a female person. Even the number 1 in greek has masculine, feminine and neuter forms.
It's really irrelevant, which has been my point since the beginning. These nouns and pronouns by themselves don't necessarily show a male or female or even a neuter PERSON. There is more to it than just the fact a word has gender.
Nobody said we aren't the bride of Christ, but the point was, before Dan twisted it, is that many greek words have gender and that does not make something a female person. Even the number 1 in greek has masculine, feminine and neuter forms.
It's really irrelevant, which has been my point since the beginning. These nouns and pronouns by themselves don't necessarily show a male or female or even a neuter PERSON. There is more to it than just the fact a word has gender.
Accepted .. however ... we would be fit to be tied if tomorrow a new KJV translation came out replacing all the its and he's in the Word with shes .... Words mean things
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:02 AM
and whether or not the scriptures support the use of it ... to describe the Spirit of God ...
I have proven apparently that some translators play w/ the language and intent of the writers ...
The translators used the word "it" because the noun in question is a neuter noun.
That's all. And, BTW, those translators were Trinitarian. They were not playing with the language. The greek word for spirit is Neuter.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:03 AM
Accepted .. however ... we would be fit to be tied if tomorrow a new KJV translation came out replacing all the its and he's in the Word with shes .... Words mean things
only if the noun or pronoun was originally feminine.
Again masculine nouns take a masculine pronoun. Neuter takes neuter. Feminine takes feminine
The translators used the word "it" because the noun in question is a neuter noun.
That's all. And, BTW, those translators were Trinitarian. They were not playing with the language. The greek word for spirit is Neuter.
And this does not harmonize w/ the rest of scripture ... Praxeas ...
God is a He in scripture the the NAS and NIV ... got it.
Simple ... its poor translation out of context .... by the KJV ...
This thread has made me more of NIV/NAS man.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:04 AM
According to this Praxeas character, God created the Y chromosome. That is interesting.
According to this "deseret" character, God has DNA....which is a material substance, which means God Himself was created. Perhaps Deseret is trying to pass himself (isn't deseret a girls name?) as a Mormon?
deseret
07-16-2007, 12:05 AM
According to this "deseret" character, God has DNA....which is a material substance, which means God Himself was created. Perhaps Deseret is trying to pass himself (isn't deseret a girls name?) as a Mormon?
I am not trying to pass myself off as a Mormon. :)
According to this "deseret" character, God has DNA....which is a material substance, which means God Himself was created. Perhaps Deseret is trying to pass himself (isn't deseret a girls name?) as a Mormon?
All human males have an XY chromosomes ... Jesus is a male. Unless you contend he's not human
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:09 AM
And this does not harmonize w/ the rest of scripture ... Praxeas ...
God is a He in scripture the the NAS and NIV ... got it.
Simple ... its poor translation out of context .... by the KJV ...
This thread has made me more of NIV/NAS man.
Sorry, but you are wrong. The word Spirit is Neuter, not Masculine. As I tried to point out already, and you at one time agreed, these gender specifics are just irrelevant. So it's NOT playing with scriptures when they say "it" because they are just going by the grammar.
Second as I have already proven a couple times, Spirit is called ITSELF in Romans.
Nobody said God was an it....Spirit is what God is. Spirit is what God consists of. That is why Spirit is most often called Spirit OF God. Spirit OF the Father. Spirit OF the Son. That is just the grammar and something nobody can change. God, theos, is masculine. Logos is Masculine. Spirit is Neuter. Church is feminine. That is just the way the greek is. So it would be grammatically correct to refer to God as HE and Spirit as IT and still NOT mean anything theologically. It's just grammatically correct because nouns and pronouns must agree in case, number and gender
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:10 AM
All human males have an XY chromosomes ... Jesus is a male. Unless you contend he's not human
What in the world are talking about now? Deseret is saying God passed his Y chromosome to Mary to produce Jesus. Please show me whereever I suggestged Jesus was not human or male?!?!
Dan your posts get more bizarre as we go on
Sorry, but you are wrong. The word Spirit is Neuter, not Masculine. As I tried to point out already, and you at one time agreed, these gender specifics are just irrelevant. So it's NOT playing with scriptures when they say "it" because they are just going by the grammar.
Second as I have already proven a couple times, Spirit is called ITSELF in Romans.
Nobody said God was an it....Spirit is what God is. Spirit is what God consists of. That is why Spirit is most often called Spirit OF God. Spirit OF the Father. Spirit OF the Son. That is just the grammar and something nobody can change. God, theos, is masculine. Logos is Masculine. Spirit is Neuter. Church is feminine. That is just the way the greek is. So it would be grammatically correct to refer to God as HE and Spirit as IT and still NOT mean anything theologically. It's just grammatically correct because nouns and pronouns must agree in case, number and gender
the grammar rules are irrelevant ... here ... if we contend God is the Spirit ... then he is not an it ... you act as if there must be a correspondence all the time ... for instance in Spanish words ending in "a" are almost always feminine but there are exceptions ... like el mapa ...
In this instance the translators ... did not look at the intent of the writers ... who were Jewish ...nor the pattern throughout scripture.... they would never use it to describe God ....
What in the world are talking about now? Deseret is saying God passed his Y chromosome to Mary to produce Jesus. Please show me whereever I suggestged Jesus was not human or male?!?!
Dan your posts get more bizarre as we go on
Do you then agree he had a Y chromosome ... Mr. Logic.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:14 AM
the grammar rules are irrelevant ... here ... if we contend God is the Spirit ... then he is not an it ... you act as if there must be a correspondence all the time ... for instance in Spanish words ending in a are almost always feminine but there are exceptions ... like el mapa ...
In this instance the translators ... did not look at the intent of the writers ... who were Jewish ... they would never use it to describe God ....
sigh, this is getting down right stupid. Grammar rules are NOT irrelevant. What is irrelevant is to assume you think I am saying He is an it.
Let me ask you a question. Is your spirit a he?
sigh, this is getting down right stupid. Grammar rules are NOT irrelevant. What is irrelevant is to assume you think I am saying He is an it.
Let me ask you a question. Is your spirit a he?
no my spirit is my spirit ... I use the word my ... to describe the noun
Once again ... there is no equivalent for our English it in the original texts
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:16 AM
Do you then agree he had a Y chromosome ... Mr. Logic.
Who?
We are discussing the SPIRIT Dan Prior to the incarnation. Im about ready to just drop this discussion due to the fact that it has been dumbed down so much.
it's like me saying "The sky is blue" and you arguing with me and saying "The sky is blue, do you agree?"
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:17 AM
no my spirit is my spirit ... I use the word my ... to describe the noun
Once again ... there is no equivalent for our English it in the original texts
Is the Spirit of God HIS Spirit? If there is no equivalent for it the why do you insist Spirit is a HE when you deny yours is?
Who?
We are discussing the SPIRIT Dan Prior to the incarnation. Im about ready to just drop this discussion due to the fact that it has been dumbed down so much.
it's like me saying "The sky is blue" and you arguing with me and saying "The sky is blue, do you agree?"
You sir are mixing up your threads ... the incarnation bizness is TB's thread on the Godhead ... this is Eliseus thread where if you go back, my Vulcan friend, he makes an argument for using the word it because the bible says so.
Is the Spirit of God HIS Spirit? If there is no equivalent for it the why do you insist Spirit is a HE when you deny yours is?
Because God is referred to as a he throughout scripture, sparky ... If I was talking about the prophet Daniel's spirit ... I would use his spirit. Oh boy.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:21 AM
Because God is referred to as a he throughout scripture, sparky ... If I was talking about the prophet Daniel's spirit ... I would use his spirit. Oh boy.
Yes and is Dan referred to as an IT, She or HE? IF you are referred to as a HE then Why not call your spirit a HE also if you do the same for God?
Answer this please...is the Spirit the Spirit OF God? Is your spirit the spirit OF Dan? What is spirit?
What is God "made" or what is He?
Yes and is Dan referred to as an IT, She or HE? IF you are referred to as a HE then Why not call your spirit a HE also if you do the same for God?
Answer this please...is the Spirit the Spirit OF God? Is your spirit the spirit OF Dan? What is spirit?
What is God "made" or what is He?
Because when I speak of me .. I speak in the first person ... hello ... anybody home???? My is a first person pronoun ... he is a third person pronoun ...
it in the English language is used for well you know already
Make no mistakes Dan is a HE ... so is God
Notice the line of Praxeas ... questioning ... he is the master of the red herring ... he seeks another tangent.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:25 AM
You sir are mixing up your threads ... the incarnation bizness is TB's thread on the Godhead ... this is Eliseus thread where if you go back, my Vulcan friend, he makes an argument for using the word it because the bible says so.
No I am not. I was responding to Deseret. He was the one that mentioned God having a Y chromosome to pass on. And please stop calling me Vulcan.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:26 AM
Because when I speak of me .. I speak in the first person ... hello ... anybody home???? My is a first person pronoun ... he is a third person pronoun ...
it in the English language is used for well you know already
Make no mistakes Dan is a HE
Dan is your spirit a he? yes or no? I am not asking if you call your spirit a he
No I am not. I was responding to Deseret. He was the one that mentioned God having a Y chromosome to pass on. And please stop calling me Vulcan.
Giving up already?:drama
Dan is your spirit a he? yes or no? I am not asking if you call your spirit a he
If I was speaking of my spirit in the third person I would use the word his spirit to describe my spirit ... Don't they teach this the Leonard Nimoy School of Logic???
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:28 AM
Because God is referred to as a he throughout scripture, sparky ... If I was talking about the prophet Daniel's spirit ... I would use his spirit. Oh boy.
But would you refer to Daniel the prophets spirit as a HE. We are not talking about saying "His Spirit" of God's Spirit . Nobody suggested saying "It's Spirit"...what we are talking about is calling the Spirit HIM or HE
Prax, I understand the argument you are making about the word "spirit" being a gender neutral word. That, in my opinion, is because a spirit can be either male or female. Just because a gender neutral word is used for the Spirit does not mean the Holy Spirit is gender neutral. It just means the word "spirit" is gender neutral. He, God, is referrred to as being male so it stands to reason His Spirit is male also.
Eliseus
07-16-2007, 12:29 AM
Well, now I know who NOT to interact with on the forum. Some people's intellectual acumen is equivalent to number 7 birdshot at 300 yards.
My spirit btw ... Praxeas... is the breathe of life ... of God.
My inner man ... soul .... is a he ... no???
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:36 AM
Prax, I understand the argument you are making about the word "spirit" being a gender neutral word. That, in my opinion, is because a spirit can be either male or female. Just because a gender neutral word is used for the Spirit does not mean the Holy Spirit is gender neutral. It just means the word "spirit" is gender neutral. He, God, is referrred to as being male so it stands to reason His Spirit is male also.
It's just neuter because that is how grammar works. It does not mean a spirit is not a person nor does it mean a spirit is not male or female. It's just grammar. Other words have gender too like Logos. Logos is a masculine word and often is used NOT to refer to jesus.
Spirit is what God is or has just as you and I have spirit too. In Hebrew Spirit is feminine
See I don't get hung up on what gender God is. It's not relevant. God is our Father. He has a father relationship to us. Jesus is our high Priest and our Shepherd etc etc etc. Relationship is what is important, Understanding His role and relationship to us is what is important.
I think the only reason God is called a HE is because that is what WE call him because of the order of creation and gender roles God ordained.
BTW anyone wanna speculate why we won't marry in heaven "being like the angels"? What is it about angels that we will be like them and not marrying?
The bible says angels are spirits too. Are the all male? Will we be all male? lol
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:37 AM
My spirit btw ... Praxeas... is the breathe of life ... of God.
My inner man ... soul .... is a he ... no???
I don't think our souls or spirits are male. I think we humans are male or female species due to genetics. It's a physical trait.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:45 AM
Well, now I know who NOT to interact with on the forum. Some people's intellectual acumen is equivalent to number 7 birdshot at 300 yards.
They are not stupid, but the conversation thus far has been rather ridiculous
They are not stupid, but the conversation thus far has been rather ridiculous
What's ridiculous is people coming here and asking for proof that God is male. That, my friend, is what is ridiculous.
Eliseus
07-16-2007, 12:53 AM
They are not stupid, but the conversation thus far has been rather ridiculous
:killinme
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:54 AM
What's ridiculous is people coming here and asking for proof that God is male. That, my friend, is what is ridiculous.
Who asked for proof that God is male? Or who insists God is male without proof? I never said anything you said was ridiculous.
Ridiculous is someone saying denies Jesus was human because they said God's Spirit does not have a Y chromosome. That is rediculous
Eliseus
07-16-2007, 12:56 AM
Is this evolving into a divine flesh thread?
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 12:57 AM
Is this evolving into a divine flesh thread?
Deseret was the one that said God's Spirit had a Y chromosome that he passed on to Jesus.
Who asked for proof that God is male? Or who insists God is male without proof? I never said anything you said was ridiculous.
Ridiculous is someone saying denies Jesus was human because they said God's Spirit does not have a Y chromosome. That is rediculous
Prax, I didn't say it was you, Brother.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 01:02 AM
Prax, I didn't say it was you, Brother.
Ok, but understand what I meant by ridiculous :-)
Some people have made it very hard to have a conversation, not you of course.
Ok, but understand what I meant by ridiculous :-)
Some people have made it very hard to have a conversation, not you of course.
Well, I am not versed enough on grammatical rules to hang with y'all. Predicates, participles, and all that stuff leaves my head spinning! LOL!
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 01:09 AM
Well, I am not versed enough on grammatical rules to hang with y'all. Predicates, participles, and all that stuff leaves my head spinning! LOL!
I don't mean it like that. I mean just intentionally being obtuse or saying things like about me saying Jesus is not a male or human. That's just dumb
Eliseus
07-16-2007, 01:26 AM
... considering that the only purpose for gender is procreation?
Says who?
deseret
07-16-2007, 02:25 AM
Deseret was the one that said God's Spirit had a Y chromosome that he passed on to Jesus.
Those words did not come from my keyboard. :)
Pressing-On
07-16-2007, 04:14 AM
Nobody said we aren't the bride of Christ, but the point was, before Dan twisted it, is that many greek words have gender and that does not make something a female person. Even the number 1 in greek has masculine, feminine and neuter forms.
It's really irrelevant, which has been my point since the beginning. These nouns and pronouns by themselves don't necessarily show a male or female or even a neuter PERSON. There is more to it than just the fact a word has gender.
I wasn't attributing that to anyone on this Board. It was said by someone that doesn't post here. Just to clarify.
Right, we understand that.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 04:26 AM
Ill give another quick example. Trinitarians claim the Logos in John 1:1 is another person from God in John 1:1b because later John calls the logos a He or Him "all things were made by Him".
However the truth is, grammatically speaking John HAD to use a masculine pronoun because the word Logos is masculine. Thats all. It's not John trying to prove the doctrine of the Trinity or anything else.
Pressing-On
07-16-2007, 04:27 AM
Ill give another quick example. Trinitarians claim the Logos in John 1:1 is another person from God in John 1:1b because later John calls the logos a He or Him "all things were made by Him".
However the truth is, grammatically speaking John HAD to use a masculine pronoun because the word Logos is masculine. Thats all. It's not John trying to prove the doctrine of the Trinity or anything else.
Good points, Prax!
It's just neuter because that is how grammar works. It does not mean a spirit is not a person nor does it mean a spirit is not male or female. It's just grammar. Other words have gender too like Logos. Logos is a masculine word and often is used NOT to refer to jesus.
Spirit is what God is or has just as you and I have spirit too. In Hebrew Spirit is feminine
See I don't get hung up on what gender God is. It's not relevant. God is our Father. He has a father relationship to us. Jesus is our high Priest and our Shepherd etc etc etc. Relationship is what is important, Understanding His role and relationship to us is what is important.
I think the only reason God is called a HE is because that is what WE call him because of the order of creation and gender roles God ordained.
BTW anyone wanna speculate why we won't marry in heaven "being like the angels"? What is it about angels that we will be like them and not marrying?
The bible says angels are spirits too. Are the all male? Will we be all male? lol
This post says a lot more than you think, Praxeas ... Let's disregard the gender qualifications put on words by languages ....
I think by stating the abstract value we have placed on the relationship we have w/ God as Him being masculine .... the topics of Y chromosomes, or reproductive organs, etc ... becomes irrelevant ...
Scripture .... His Word ... has placed this masculine value ...
the relationships HE HAS SOUGHT to have w/ us ... has also made him masculine in our human minds and hearts ...
Simply replacing Him with "it" as we use "it" in our English language flies in the face of the value we have placed for God, IMO.
Furthermore, I will reiterate that modern translators have seen the error of the KJV translators in the inconsistency of calling His Spirit an "it" ... when talking about God.
A chair is called a chair because we as a culture have accepted chair to represent the device we use to sit on .. we could decide tomorrow that its not to be called a chair .. but a mufaba ... and if the culture accepts that value to represent the abstract concept ...then it would become part of our language.
We only have one word for snow in our language because we need to have a word to represent and place a value on the white frozen stuff that falls from the sky ...
However, the Inuit, or Eskimo ... has developed variations and distinct words to describe snow ... based on what type of snow it is, its texture, when it falls, etc. Why? Because it is so important to their culture they had to develop words to represent the values it has for them.
Example:
Eskimo Snow Lexemes
A. Snow particles
(1) Snowflake
qanuk 'snowflake'
qanir- 'to snow'
qanunge- 'to snow' [NUN]
qanugglir- 'to snow' [NUN]
(2) Frost
kaneq 'frost'
kaner- 'be frosty/frost sth.'
(3) Fine snow/rain particles
kanevvluk 'fine snow/rain particles
kanevcir- to get fine snow/rain particles
(4) Drifting particles natquik 'drifting snow/etc'
natqu(v)igte- 'for snow/etc. to drift along ground'
(5) Clinging particles
nevluk 'clinging debris/
nevlugte- 'have clinging debris/...'lint/snow/dirt...'
B. Fallen snow
(6) Fallen snow on the ground
aniu [NS] 'snow on ground'
aniu- [NS] 'get snow on ground'
apun [NS] 'snow on ground'
qanikcaq 'snow on ground'
qanikcir- 'get snow on ground'
(7) Soft, deep fallen snow on the ground
muruaneq 'soft deep snow'
(8) Crust on fallen snow
qetrar- [NSU] 'for snow to crust'
qerretrar- [NSU] 'for snow to crust'
(9) Fresh fallen snow on the ground
nutaryuk 'fresh snow' [HBC]
(10) Fallen snow floating on water
qanisqineq 'snow floating on water'
C. Snow formations
(11) Snow bank
qengaruk 'snow bank' [Y, HBC]
(12) Snow block
utvak 'snow carved in block'
(13) Snow cornice
navcaq [NSU] 'snow cornice, snow (formation) about to collapse'
navcite- 'get caught in an avalanche'
D. Meterological events
(14) Blizzard, snowstorm
pirta 'blizzard, snowstorm'
pircir- 'to blizzard'
pirtuk 'blizzard, snowstorm'
(15) Severe blizzard
cellallir-, cellarrlir- 'to snow heavily'
pir(e)t(e)pag- 'to blizzard severely'
pirrelvag- 'to blizzard severely'
In conclusion, if you admit that our relationships, interactions and even His Word place a masculine value on God ... then grammar, Greek, Hebrew ... becomes irrelevant ... our commonly accepted abstract value then makes He a He and not a she or an it ... Making the 3 KJV verses Eliseus posted inconsistent.
The New King James Version, The New International Version, the New American Standard version, original Greek Hebrew don't use it but rather pronouns for a masculine God ... yet there seems to be a desire to intellectualize ... the obvious.
Well, now I know who NOT to interact with on the forum. Some people's intellectual acumen is equivalent to number 7 birdshot at 300 yards.
Your verbosity conceals/reveals hubris. What a paradox!!!
As an aside ... the New King James Version ... doesn't use it to refer the Spirit of Christ in the old KJV 1 Peter 1:11 reference used by our superior resident scholar ...
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
The New King James Version, as the NIV, NAS, doesn't use "it" .. either ... for the old KJV Isaiah 34:16 text cited by Eliseus ...
16 “ Search from the book of the LORD, and read:
Not one of these shall fail;
Not one shall lack her mate.
For My mouth has commanded it, and His Spirit has gathered them.
NKJV
The question begs to be asked why the change?
Me thinks I know the answer.
Let's go for the tri-fecta ...
The New King James version doesn't use "it" either for the old KJV John 1:32 text used by Eliseus ...
32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
WHY THE CHANGE IN THE NKJV??? .... DID THEY NOT WANT TO PROPERLY CALL GOD AN "IT", TOO? ... DON'T THEY KNOW ABOUT THE THIRD PERSON NEUTER AND THAT SOME OPs LIKE CALLING THE HOLY SPIRIT AN IT?
DIDN'T THEY REALIZE THAT THE OLD KJV ... WAS GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT ????... AND THAT PRAXEAS AND ELISEUS [and Mizpeh, too] WOULD DO THEIR BEST TO JUSTIFY IT USING THE GREEK OUT OF CONTEXT W/ THE REST OF SCRIPTURE????
ANYONE????
The New King James Version, The New International Version, the New American Standard version, the original Greek, Hebrew don't use "it" or "she" but rather masculine pronouns for a God who has revealed Himself to us throughout scripture in a masculine concept and form ... yet there seems to be a desire to intellectualize ... the obvious.
Brother Strange
07-16-2007, 05:41 AM
He didn't get the Y from anyone, thus the reason it was an IMMACULATE conception. That's the definition of that word.
HO,
Immaculate conception has nothing to do with Jesus or His conception. It has to do with Mary and the manner in which SHE was conceived. The doctrine is NOT scriptural. It is Catholic dogma.
Eliseus' first post:
So, in short, there is both Biblical and grammatical precedent for using 'it' in reference to the Holy Spirit
Not!!! Only in the flawed old KJV translation...
Really now.
Brother Strange
07-16-2007, 05:51 AM
Your point is well taken Daniel.
Simple English grammar have parts of speech that other languages do not have. But we must remember that a pronoun simply take the place of a noun. Recalling 7th or 8th grade English lessons, a noun is the name of a person, place or thing. Therefore, substituting the name of a person, place or thing, the words, it, he, she, him, her, there, etc., are some times used.
Comparing the Greek with the English can be frustrating where parts of speech are demanded in every instance of the Greek, in which I am a total incompetent, void of any and all explanation. Thus, I must of neccessity rely on the English translations which do in fact, use these various pronouns, sometimes quite liberally.
Eliseus
07-16-2007, 07:27 AM
This post says a lot more than you think, Praxeas ... Let's disregard the gender qualifications put on words by languages ....
I think by stating the abstract value we have placed on the relationship we have w/ God as Him being masculine .... the topics of Y chromosomes, or reproductive organs, etc ... becomes irrelevant ...
Scripture .... His Word ... has placed this masculine value ...
the relationships HE HAS SOUGHT to have w/ us ... has also made him masculine in our human minds and hearts ...
Simply replacing Him with "it" as we use "it" in our English language flies in the face of the value we have placed for God, IMO.
Furthermore, I will reiterate that modern translators have seen the error of the KJV translators in the inconsistency of calling His Spirit an "it" ... when talking about God.
A chair is called a chair because we as a culture have accepted chair to represent the device we use to sit on .. we could decide tomorrow that its not to be called a chair .. but a mufaba ... and if the culture accepts that value to represent the abstract concept ...then it would become part of our language.
We only have one word for snow in our language because we need to have a word to represent and place a value on the white frozen stuff that falls from the sky ...
However, the Inuit, or Eskimo ... has developed variations and distinct words to describe snow ... based on what type of snow it is, its texture, when it falls, etc. Why? Because it is so important to their culture they had to develop words to represent the values it has for them.
Example:
Eskimo Snow Lexemes
A. Snow particles
(1) Snowflake
qanuk 'snowflake'
qanir- 'to snow'
qanunge- 'to snow' [NUN]
qanugglir- 'to snow' [NUN]
(2) Frost
kaneq 'frost'
kaner- 'be frosty/frost sth.'
(3) Fine snow/rain particles
kanevvluk 'fine snow/rain particles
kanevcir- to get fine snow/rain particles
(4) Drifting particles natquik 'drifting snow/etc'
natqu(v)igte- 'for snow/etc. to drift along ground'
(5) Clinging particles
nevluk 'clinging debris/
nevlugte- 'have clinging debris/...'lint/snow/dirt...'
B. Fallen snow
(6) Fallen snow on the ground
aniu [NS] 'snow on ground'
aniu- [NS] 'get snow on ground'
apun [NS] 'snow on ground'
qanikcaq 'snow on ground'
qanikcir- 'get snow on ground'
(7) Soft, deep fallen snow on the ground
muruaneq 'soft deep snow'
(8) Crust on fallen snow
qetrar- [NSU] 'for snow to crust'
qerretrar- [NSU] 'for snow to crust'
(9) Fresh fallen snow on the ground
nutaryuk 'fresh snow' [HBC]
(10) Fallen snow floating on water
qanisqineq 'snow floating on water'
C. Snow formations
(11) Snow bank
qengaruk 'snow bank' [Y, HBC]
(12) Snow block
utvak 'snow carved in block'
(13) Snow cornice
navcaq [NSU] 'snow cornice, snow (formation) about to collapse'
navcite- 'get caught in an avalanche'
D. Meterological events
(14) Blizzard, snowstorm
pirta 'blizzard, snowstorm'
pircir- 'to blizzard'
pirtuk 'blizzard, snowstorm'
(15) Severe blizzard
cellallir-, cellarrlir- 'to snow heavily'
pir(e)t(e)pag- 'to blizzard severely'
pirrelvag- 'to blizzard severely'
In conclusion, if you admit that our relationships, interactions and even His Word place a masculine value on God ... then grammar, Greek, Hebrew ... becomes irrelevant ... our commonly accepted abstract value then makes He a He and not a she or an it ... Making the 3 KJV verses Eliseus posted inconsistent.
The New King James Version, The New International Version, the New American Standard version, original Greek Hebrew don't use it but rather pronouns for a masculine God ... yet there seems to be a desire to intellectualize ... the obvious.
Perfect example of using number 7 birdshot to 'hit' a squirrel at 300 yards.
:killinme
Subdued
07-16-2007, 07:51 AM
Was God male prior to the birth of Jesus; and if so, in what way(s)? What made God male?
Perfect example of using number 7 birdshot to 'hit' a squirrel at 300 yards.
:killinme
Well if you'll be my Rocky ... them I'll be your Bullwinkle.
http://www.thewoundandwound.com/images/nodders/112004/Rocky&Bullwinkle.jpg
Pressing-On
07-16-2007, 11:45 AM
Was God male prior to the birth of Jesus; and if so, in what way(s)? What made God male?
For me, the masculine represents "strength" in the strongest sense. It wouldn't make sense, IMO, to have it any other way.
Everything is basically defined as gender distinct. Look at the scales and chords in music - Major chords are described as "extroverted, clear and open". The Minor scales are viewed as "soft and introverted".
What about in the electrical and mechanical field?- fasteners and connectors. LOL!
I believe God set out a magnificent order of distinction in His Word! It's carried into all aspects of society. When we cross that line, society becomes blurred and confusion and gross sin occurs.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 06:53 PM
They called the Spirit IT because it was grammatically correct due to the fact that the word Spirit is neuter gender AND most of those other translations translate incorrectly the neuter pronoun in Romans
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
It's just a matter of being grammatically correct
As for the question of Y chromosome. I repeat yet again, I did not raise that issue. It had nothing to do with whether or not God was male. It was raised because I said God created a Y chromosome to pass on to the Son and someone else was arguing God already had one, as though God has always had DNA and did not create one for the purpose of the incarnation.
Spirit is the essence of being that God is. Just as flesh is what we are.
And additionally, when we are baptized with the Spirit we not only receive HIM, we receive IT....His Divine Nature
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
A nature is not a Him or a who.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 07:03 PM
As an aside ... the New King James Version ... doesn't use it to refer the Spirit of Christ in the old KJV 1 Peter 1:11 reference used by our superior resident scholar ...
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
That's an incorrect translation. The pronoun is neuter and actually the word you originally brought up is the neuter article "to" which is translated "who" here and "which".
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 07:07 PM
Let's go for the tri-fecta ...
The New King James version doesn't use "it" either for the old KJV John 1:32 text used by Eliseus ...
32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
WHY THE CHANGE IN THE NKJV??? .... DID THEY NOT WANT TO PROPERLY CALL GOD AN "IT", TOO? ... DON'T THEY KNOW ABOUT THE THIRD PERSON NEUTER AND THAT SOME OPs LIKE CALLING THE HOLY SPIRIT AN IT?
DIDN'T THEY REALIZE THAT THE OLD KJV ... WAS GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT ????... AND THAT PRAXEAS AND ELISEUS [and Mizpeh, too] WOULD DO THEIR BEST TO JUSTIFY IT USING THE GREEK OUT OF CONTEXT W/ THE REST OF SCRIPTURE????
ANYONE????
As I pointed out before, there is NO pronoun at all in that verse. It's fine translating it without either IT or HE, yet the NKJV put HE for some reason...gee could it be because they are Trinitarians trying to prove the third person of the Trinity?
And yes it CAN be translated IT because the noun is neuter. Are you in support of translating based on doctrinal bias or translation based on what the text actually says?
And it is NOT out of context with the rest of scriptures. The Spirit is the Divine ESSENCE of being of God. That is WHAT God is. God is Spirit. You receive His Divine Nature when you revceive His Spirit.
God as to Person is called a HE. God's Divine Essence of being is not
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 07:09 PM
The New King James Version, The New International Version, the New American Standard version, the original Greek, Hebrew don't use "it" or "she" but rather masculine pronouns for a God who has revealed Himself to us throughout scripture in a masculine concept and form ... yet there seems to be a desire to intellectualize ... the obvious.
We are not talking about the word God but the word Spirit and YES IT DOES use the word IT. I already posted the verses several times and each time you have ignored it for some odd reason.
Additionally you don't even know any pronouns were present and were not just added by the translators, who might have added a HE because the noun is masculine. However I don't see anywhere in the bible where masculine pronouns are used of Spirit either.
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 07:14 PM
Eliseus' first post:
Not!!! Only in the flawed old KJV translation...
Really now.
This will be like the 5th time or so I have posted these verses
First of all the masculine translations are ADDING to the text because no masculine pronouns exist.
Second His Spirit is not His Person but His essence of Being. Spirit is WHAT He is. This is the problem with many OPs that don't understand the distinctions between Father, Son and Holy Ghost AND the difference between PERSON and NATURE
Now for the verses
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
The greek pronouns are NEUTER. The only reason why later translations translate it Himself is to support the third person of the Trinity
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 07:15 PM
Was God male prior to the birth of Jesus; and if so, in what way(s)? What made God male?
Maybe someone should give the definition of male.
Im looking at the dictionary and every definition pertains to physical attributes
Praxeas
07-16-2007, 07:21 PM
I would say sometimes Spirit refers strictly to God's essence of Being and sometimes to God Himself (person) since as Spirit is the only way God exists outside of the humanity of Christ
HeavenlyOne
07-16-2007, 08:30 PM
Good posts, Prax.
I'm still waiting on someone to answer my questions.....LOL!
Steve Epley
07-16-2007, 08:40 PM
I have to admire Dan he takes a licking and keeps on ticking.:winkgrin
pelathais
07-16-2007, 08:40 PM
wow... I can't hardly keep up with you guys. I think both Daniel and Eliseus are correct - the problem being the imprecision of the English language and its use of the neuter gender pronoun "it."
Many arguments and flames are generated by the imprecision of language. Words do mean something, however they can often mean different things to different people in different contexts.
I think I see why I can't keep up...
Subdued
07-17-2007, 07:14 PM
Please list the various male characteristics/attributes & the various female characteristics/attributes.
Bumping for Felicity
Subdued
07-17-2007, 10:08 PM
Bumping for Felicity
Bumping again.
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