Interesting article on the need for Apostolic TV..

[NLYP]

By Ruth Ann Kerr

Now that we have the Tenneys on TBN to discuss, I suppose the discussion over conscientious scruples will go on the back burner for now. No comments in this missive on either topic.

But, I do want to speak in favor of Apostolics taking to the tube for a reason I have yet to see mentioned as a ministry to the sick and the shut-in.

However, I realize, that just as Madison Avenue looks at the American spending pool as hip and 18-30, so do some Apostolics validate/endorse/approve ministry only if it extends to those who are able bodied and still young enough to march for missions, run aisles, and help with the annual peanut brittle event or Sheaves for Christ rock-a-thon.

My 80+ year-old mother passed away in 2001 and she had, as long as physically able, attended church “every time the doors were opened” for nearly 60 years. Bed-ridden from cancer several months before her demise, TV became more important to her than ever. It was her only link to church services, to any corporate move of God at all.

My saint of a father and unchurched family members and I collectively say “Thank God!” for T. D. Jakes and a handful of P.A.W. churches who preached doctrinally-sound sermons and sang and worshipped each week. Mom prayed along with them, said “Amen” during the preaching, and tapped her fingers to and sang along with the music.

Now the argument against being on TV for this purpose would be that our churches should have nursing home ministries and outreaches to the elderly and shut-in. Would that were the case! So few Apostolic churches have such ministries/outreaches in place. As a body, we don’t even seem to be able to erect just one nursing/retirement home anywhere.

For my mom, requests to her church of 50+ years elicited less-than-sporadic phone calls and even fewer visits (until the last two weeks of her life). Of course, faithful saint that she was, her tithing checks were mailed right on time each month. No one came with Communion, no one came with singing, no one came with Bible lessons or even “sermonettes.” I see the same turn of events taking place now with my 91-year-old father who is too ill to make the trip to church. His only links with a church body are the same ones available to my mother. Elderly people, I have learned, are very understanding, you see, of how busy their church leadership/family is.

Folks may not want to ask Dad whether we should use TV or not he’ll quickly tell you in great detail about the advent of “crystal radios” and how every sermon warned against that wicked tool of the Anti-Christ. He may not be able to remember what he had for lunch today, but just ask him to relate how “the Church” has changed its collective mind about many things through the years and you’ll get vivid detail, because “the Church” has been his life.

When the UPCI, or any other Oneness organization for that matter, is ready to step up to the proverbial plate and put as much emphasis on meeting needs of church-members and the community at large as it puts on how many more conferences we can schedule this year or how many more books we can write about how people should look, perhaps even our seniors and other shut-ins can still feel like they really are part of a body of believers.

For just a few minutes…a few short minutes…can we refrain from standing in front of a mirror, or holding the mirror up to someone else, and take a really honest look at the needs of the world around us, even the needs of those who support us, put food on our tables, pay our way to General Conference, and send our children to private schools? I realize that, for many, “image is everything,” but let’s be real, folks image isn’t as much to Jesus as it is to us.

As a holder of a General License with the UPCI, I am committed now more than ever to preaching the whole gospel of Jesus Christ. And, after exhausting every sermon available on the Mighty God in Christ, love and compassion for the lost, redemption, reconciliation, and remission of sin, I’ll surely have ample time to preach against the evils of TV and other mass media and will do just that. I promise. Cross my heart.

Yet right now, at this particular intersection of time and opportunity, I simply want to be sure that every hungry heart I know young, old, “saved” or not has the invitation to become acquainted with the love and tender mercies of Jesus Christ. And that every one I encounter knows that he or she is loved and cared for by the Body of Christ (us).

Wasn’t it during the Russian revolution, as people marched in the streets and their country was falling apart, that the Russian Orthodox church leaders were behind closed doors trying to decide what color buttons to sew on their robes and whether or not to use a napkin with the communion chalice?

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra, “It’s déjà vu all over again.”

[Brother Strange]

Gotta love Ruthie. Haven't seen her in a great many years. I loved her parents too. Her brother Jerry was my good fishing buddy back in the (1950s) day.

Here she writes the most compelling argument for T.V. ministry that I've heard yet. Who can adaquately argue against THAT?

How many times have I protested to my dear Pastor, G.A. Mangun, his ardent stance against T.V. ministry. There were times that I would wax passionate for the cause of Christ on T.V.. Once he turned to Sister Vesta and said, "Rayford has gone wild." LOL... A typical Mangun statement. But, he would not move. He was dead set against it. I pointed out how Oral Roberts, Herbert W. Armstrong, Allen, Bishop Sheen was taking the world with this highly effective electronic media doing what our little tracks were just not doing.

Now, guess what???

It is my understanding that G. A. and Son are probably the foremost leading proponents for it.

WellWellwhatdayaknowboutthatenniehow? I am far too humble to have a "I told ya so" attitude. No sir reeee. Far too humble.

[Trouvere]

Brothers Strange and NLYP the tv issue she is addressing is not what
gets to me.Its the other issue of the church not reaching for her family now that they are homebound.My dad thank God had us and the church and our pastors
were faithful to see him.I am so glad for that.The church here has a ministry to the shut in.They tape the services and they are on DVD.Thank God for that and for those who go and visit and have commuinion with them and prayer.That is what bugged me the most about what she said.Its heartbreaking.

[Malvaro]

Source URL please....

[OP_Carl]

It's a valid argument that completely ignores some key trivia:

Less than 1% of people watch "religious" television programming.

Approximately 95% of people who watch religious programming believe themselves to be already "saved."

Those who have gone before us into the world of television ministry, and fallen spectacularly, have indelibly muddied the waters. In the minds of the secular population, all TV preachers are fake, hypocritical money-grabbers. ALL of them.

We are only fooling ourselves if we think we can get on the airwaves and be perceived as different by the world. A good deal of what talent is on TV now was trained in the UPC.

Usually, people need to feel the presence and power of God, and the warm welcome of the saints, to be reached. Apostolic services on television will be borderline entertainment for the saints and the topic of abject ridicule for the unsaved.

In the end, television will merely consume resources of time, talent, energy, and lots of money that could have been used to greater effect building bible schools on missions fields - all the while stirring controversy and division to distract the congregation's attention from more important matters.

[AGAPE]

By Ruth Ann KerrNow that we have the Tenneys on TBN to discuss, I suppose the discussion over conscientious scruples will go on the back burner for now. No comments in this missive on either topic.

But, I do want to speak in favor of Apostolics taking to the tube for a reason I have yet to see mentioned as a ministry to the sick and the shut-in.

However, I realize, that just as Madison Avenue looks at the American spending pool as hip and 18-30, so do some Apostolics validate/endorse/approve ministry only if it extends to those who are able bodied and still young enough to march for missions, run aisles, and help with the annual peanut brittle event or Sheaves for Christ rock-a-thon.

My 80+ year-old mother passed away in 2001 and she had, as long as physically able, attended church “every time the doors were opened” for nearly 60 years. Bed-ridden from cancer several months before her demise, TV became more important to her than ever. It was her only link to church services, to any corporate move of God at all.

My saint of a father and unchurched family members and I collectively say “Thank God!” for T. D. Jakes and a handful of P.A.W. churches who preached doctrinally-sound sermons and sang and worshipped each week. Mom prayed along with them, said “Amen” during the preaching, and tapped her fingers to and sang along with the music.

Now the argument against being on TV for this purpose would be that our churches should have nursing home ministries and outreaches to the elderly and shut-in. Would that were the case! So few Apostolic churches have such ministries/outreaches in place. As a body, we don’t even seem to be able to erect just one nursing/retirement home anywhere.

For my mom, requests to her church of 50+ years elicited less-than-sporadic phone calls and even fewer visits (until the last two weeks of her life). Of course, faithful saint that she was, her tithing checks were mailed right on time each month. No one came with Communion, no one came with singing, no one came with Bible lessons or even “sermonettes.” I see the same turn of events taking place now with my 91-year-old father who is too ill to make the trip to church. His only links with a church body are the same ones available to my mother. Elderly people, I have learned, are very understanding, you see, of how busy their church leadership/family is.

Folks may not want to ask Dad whether we should use TV or not he’ll quickly tell you in great detail about the advent of “crystal radios” and how every sermon warned against that wicked tool of the Anti-Christ. He may not be able to remember what he had for lunch today, but just ask him to relate how “the Church” has changed its collective mind about many things through the years and you’ll get vivid detail, because “the Church” has been his life.

When the UPCI, or any other Oneness organization for that matter, is ready to step up to the proverbial plate and put as much emphasis on meeting needs of church-members and the community at large as it puts on how many more conferences we can schedule this year or how many more books we can write about how people should look, perhaps even our seniors and other shut-ins can still feel like they really are part of a body of believers.

For just a few minutes…a few short minutes…can we refrain from standing in front of a mirror, or holding the mirror up to someone else, and take a really honest look at the needs of the world around us, even the needs of those who support us, put food on our tables, pay our way to General Conference, and send our children to private schools? I realize that, for many, “image is everything,” but let’s be real, folks image isn’t as much to Jesus as it is to us.

As a holder of a General License with the UPCI, I am committed now more than ever to preaching the whole gospel of Jesus Christ. And, after exhausting every sermon available on the Mighty God in Christ, love and compassion for the lost, redemption, reconciliation, and remission of sin, I’ll surely have ample time to preach against the evils of TV and other mass media and will do just that. I promise. Cross my heart.

Yet right now, at this particular intersection of time and opportunity, I simply want to be sure that every hungry heart I know young, old, “saved” or not has the invitation to become acquainted with the love and tender mercies of Jesus Christ. And that every one I encounter knows that he or she is loved and cared for by the Body of Christ (us).

Wasn’t it during the Russian revolution, as people marched in the streets and their country was falling apart, that the Russian Orthodox church leaders were behind closed doors trying to decide what color buttons to sew on their robes and whether or not to use a napkin with the communion chalice?

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra, “It’s déjà vu all over again.”

:igotit


Let the women keep silent

[Malvaro]

http://www.ninetyandnine.com/Archives/20030127/ephemera.htm

[Newman]

It's a valid argument that completely ignores some key trivia:

Less than 1% of people watch "religious" television programming.

Approximately 95% of people who watch religious programming believe themselves to be already "saved."

Those who have gone before us into the world of television ministry, and fallen spectacularly, have indelibly muddied the waters. In the minds of the secular population, all TV preachers are fake, hypocritical money-grabbers. ALL of them.

We are only fooling ourselves if we think we can get on the airwaves and be perceived as different by the world. A good deal of what talent is on TV now was trained in the UPC.

Usually, people need to feel the presence and power of God, and the warm welcome of the saints, to be reached. Apostolic services on television will be borderline entertainment for the saints and the topic of abject ridicule for the unsaved.

In the end, television will merely consume resources of time, talent, energy, and lots of money that could have been used to greater effect building bible schools on missions fields - all the while stirring controversy and division to distract the congregation's attention from more important matters.

The "key trivia" is irrelevant to her compelling and well-written argument. :IAM

[Sheltiedad]

I hope that no one has a church in Las Vegas... because 95% of the people who go to Vegas are going for entertainment purposes.

[Sheltiedad]

Not using a tool that could be used to reach people in 3rd world countries by the millions is not an important matter? I have had dinner in a man's house in India who makes approximately $2.00 US dollars a day. His entire house was two rooms and their furniture was plastic chairs, yet they had a television...

[Steve Epley]

The "key trivia" is irrelevant to her compelling and well-written argument. :IAM

It is well written but rather being in advocation of television it exposes the obligation this pastor and church family had to this dear saint. With all the tapes and cd's available and young suppose to be preachers sitting around Pentecostal churches this is an indictment to them. When I started preaching my pastor sent me to the rest homes weekly. We sang and preached and visited. I would hate to think God had this neglect on my record. This congregation does not need a television program they need a good praying through to see their obligations to widows and shut ins. The tube will not and cannot ease the conscience of what the church should be doing PERSONALLY.
Cancel a golf game I suggest and church outing and do what God commanded to do to 'visit widows in their afflictions.'

[OP_Carl]

Elder Epley,

EXACTLY.

Carl

[Chewy]

It's a valid argument that completely ignores some key trivia:

Less than 1% of people watch "religious" television programming.

Approximately 95% of people who watch religious programming believe themselves to be already "saved."

Those who have gone before us into the world of television ministry, and fallen spectacularly, have indelibly muddied the waters. In the minds of the secular population, all TV preachers are fake, hypocritical money-grabbers. ALL of them.

We are only fooling ourselves if we think we can get on the airwaves and be perceived as different by the world. A good deal of what talent is on TV now was trained in the UPC.

Usually, people need to feel the presence and power of God, and the warm welcome of the saints, to be reached. Apostolic services on television will be borderline entertainment for the saints and the topic of abject ridicule for the unsaved.

In the end, television will merely consume resources of time, talent, energy, and lots of money that could have been used to greater effect building bible schools on missions fields - all the while stirring controversy and division to distract the congregation's attention from more important matters.


Sounds like you are more worried about your reputation than exhausting all means to communicate the Gospel.

If it lead ONE person to Jesus wouldn't it be worth it? If it lead or compelled someone to tell someone else or lead them to the Lord, wouldn't it be worth it?

What is the worth of one soul? Can you be so sure it won't be effective to reach that ONE soul?

I think your post characterizes the entire mentality of reputation above all things, including souls.

[OP_Carl]

Sounds like you are more worried about your reputation than exhausting all means to communicate the Gospel.

If it lead ONE person to Jesus wouldn't it be worth it? If it lead or compelled someone to tell someone else or lead them to the Lord, wouldn't it be worth it?

What is the worth of one soul? Can you be so sure it won't be effective to reach that ONE soul?

I think your post characterizes the entire mentality of reputation above all things, including souls.

Well, I really wasn't thinking about reputation. But you may have a point.

What I am giving here is an estimation that it won't be effective. All we're going to get, when we're on the air, are a bunch of baptists and charismatics yelling at the TV about grace, trinity, and pharisees. The lost aren't going to tune in. The ones that do are going to assume we're just like all the rest.

The money and effort is better spent on other venues of outreach.

It's also going to introduce some funny quirks, such as pastors admonishing their saints to not believe everything they see on TV, except on channel 9 between 10 and noon. Don't let television influence your life, unless it's my program. I think it's funny already! :killinme

[NLYP]

It is well written but rather being in advocation of television it exposes the obligation this pastor and church family had to this dear saint. With all the tapes and cd's available and young suppose to be preachers sitting around Pentecostal churches this is an indictment to them. When I started preaching my pastor sent me to the rest homes weekly. We sang and preached and visited. I would hate to think God had this neglect on my record. This congregation does not need a television program they need a good praying through to see their obligations to widows and shut ins. The tube will not and cannot ease the conscience of what the church should be doing PERSONALLY.
Cancel a golf game I suggest and church outing and do what God commanded to do to 'visit widows in their afflictions.'

So you are saying that they should be there 24/7????
Seems to me having a 24/7 church program would be alot more conveient for all those involved.
I know I would not want my Pastor over all day everyday.

[NLYP]

Sounds like you are more worried about your reputation than exhausting all means to communicate the Gospel.

If it lead ONE person to Jesus wouldn't it be worth it? If it lead or compelled someone to tell someone else or lead them to the Lord, wouldn't it be worth it?

What is the worth of one soul? Can you be so sure it won't be effective to reach that ONE soul?

I think your post characterizes the entire mentality of reputation above all things, including souls.

BRAVO CHEWY BRAVO!!!!!

[South of I 90]

Great article, even if it is over 4 years old!

[Steve Epley]

So you are saying that they should be there 24/7????
Seems to me having a 24/7 church program would be alot more conveient for all those involved.
I know I would not want my Pastor over all day everyday.

I have no clue what you are asking?????????????????????????

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Sounds like you are more worried about your reputation than exhausting all means to communicate the Gospel.

If it lead ONE person to Jesus wouldn't it be worth it? If it lead or compelled someone to tell someone else or lead them to the Lord, wouldn't it be worth it?

What is the worth of one soul? Can you be so sure it won't be effective to reach that ONE soul?

I think your post characterizes the entire mentality of reputation above all things, including souls.

This strawman would hold credulance more so if those on TV were having sweeping numbers due to TV alone as outreach.

Even business marketing will tell you the best form of growth is one-on-one referrals. TV is expensive and about as effective as direct maill 1 % of saturation.

[Theophilus]

It's a valid argument that completely ignores some key trivia:

Less than 1% of people watch "religious" television programming.

Approximately 95% of people who watch religious programming believe themselves to be already "saved."

Those who have gone before us into the world of television ministry, and fallen spectacularly, have indelibly muddied the waters. In the minds of the secular population, all TV preachers are fake, hypocritical money-grabbers. ALL of them.

We are only fooling ourselves if we think we can get on the airwaves and be perceived as different by the world. A good deal of what talent is on TV now was trained in the UPC.

Usually, people need to feel the presence and power of God, and the warm welcome of the saints, to be reached. Apostolic services on television will be borderline entertainment for the saints and the topic of abject ridicule for the unsaved.

In the end, television will merely consume resources of time, talent, energy, and lots of money that could have been used to greater effect building bible schools on missions fields - all the while stirring controversy and division to distract the congregation's attention from more important matters.

Shhhh! Let them live the dream.

[bdlooney]

So you are saying that they should be there 24/7????
Seems to me having a 24/7 church program would be alot more conveient for all those involved.I know I would not want my Pastor over all day everyday.

1.
So the truth finally comes out!! The big push for TV is not for evangelism but convenience. It would be much easier to ask the shut-ins to turn to channel 4 than drive over and actually visit, minister and pray with them.

I am not an "Elder" in ministry and this is only my 23rd post on AFF but I pray to God that I never get to the place that I would make this type of decision based upon the convenience factor.

2.
What?!?! Having the Pastor there 24/7??
I doubt that they would be watching the program 24/7.

[Theophilus]

Sounds like you are more worried about your reputation than exhausting all means to communicate the Gospel.

If it lead ONE person to Jesus wouldn't it be worth it? If it lead or compelled someone to tell someone else or lead them to the Lord, wouldn't it be worth it?

What is the worth of one soul? Can you be so sure it won't be effective to reach that ONE soul?

I think your post characterizes the entire mentality of reputation above all things, including souls.

Have all means been exhausted already? Is TV the final frontier when all else has failed, or is it that we have failed all else?

How many souls are we willing to loose to win that one that you are so concerned for and might that one soul have been reached, with many others, if the movement would actually move and get off the pew.

[Theophilus]

1.
So the truth finally comes out!! The big push for TV is not for evangelism but convenience. It would be much easier to ask the shut-ins to turn to channel 4 than drive over and actually visit, minister and pray with them.

I am not an "Elder" in ministry and this is only my 23rd post on AFF but I pray to God that I never get to the place that I would make this type of decision based upon the convenience factor.

2.
What?!?! Having the Pastor there 24/7??
I doubt that they would be watching the program 24/7.

There is more truth to the agenda and propaganda than that, but thou hast a sharp eye.

1 Fleshalionians 2:3 Let thou thine boop tube do thy bidding.

[Theophilus]

It is well written but rather being in advocation of television it exposes the obligation this pastor and church family had to this dear saint. With all the tapes and cd's available and young suppose to be preachers sitting around Pentecostal churches this is an indictment to them. When I started preaching my pastor sent me to the rest homes weekly. We sang and preached and visited. I would hate to think God had this neglect on my record. This congregation does not need a television program they need a good praying through to see their obligations to widows and shut ins. The tube will not and cannot ease the conscience of what the church should be doing PERSONALLY.
Cancel a golf game I suggest and church outing and do what God commanded to do to 'visit widows in their afflictions.'

Outstanding Post! Forgive them Elder, for they know not what they do. This is the new world order society wherein we rely on technology, medicine, and machines to do it all for us.

[OP_Carl]

1.
So the truth finally comes out!! The big push for TV is not for evangelism but convenience. It would be much easier to ask the shut-ins to turn to channel 4 than drive over and actually visit, minister and pray with them.

I am not an "Elder" in ministry and this is only my 23rd post on AFF but I pray to God that I never get to the place that I would make this type of decision based upon the convenience factor.

2.
What?!?! Having the Pastor there 24/7??
I doubt that they would be watching the program 24/7.

Televising services and/or being on TBN is of dubious value.

We've got to be careful, however, because this is not the only aspect of the larger television debate.

There are some valid points in the argument for advertising our Apostolic churches on TV. Placing ad spots on local secular channels would reach a larger target audience. Then the question becomes, 'what do we put in those adds?' Face time of Pastor Handsome telling about all of the programs? A bit of the choir hitting the best part of their best song? A close up of Sister Screech Owl doing the jerky shockamoo like she's a rag doll in the jaws of a pit bull? Or just a teaser to indicate that things might be different, or more welcoming? What risk do we take on that we might be providing false advertising?

Then, once they get established, do we tell the people that we reached via television that it's time for them to take their televisions to the curb? It's a bad influence, after all . . . :killinme

[Theophilus]

Well, I really wasn't thinking about reputation. But you may have a point.

What I am giving here is an estimation that it won't be effective. All we're going to get, when we're on the air, are a bunch of baptists and charismatics yelling at the TV about grace, trinity, and pharisees. The lost aren't going to tune in. The ones that do are going to assume we're just like all the rest.

The money and effort is better spent on other venues of outreach.

It's also going to introduce some funny quirks, such as pastors admonishing their saints to not believe everything they see on TV, except on channel 9 between 10 and noon. Don't let television influence your life, unless it's my program. I think it's funny already! :killinme

Ask David about reputation.

[Brother Strange]

[QUOTE=BoredOutOfMyMind;188238]This strawman would hold credulance more so if those on TV were having sweeping numbers due to TV alone as outreach.

A good sales campaign always has support from various segments of the enterprise. The marketing segment alone cannot make for a successful enterprise. That is pretty much a given.

Even business marketing will tell you the best form of growth is one-on-one referrals. TV is expensive and about as effective as direct maill 1 % of saturation.

T.V. is expensive but I never of Swaggart or even Bishop Fulton Sheen paying for it out of their own bank account. Viewers heaped money upon them as they are now doing upon Paul and Jan Crotch. Drunks will send in money to support it as will people who will never go to church...regardless.

But as far as the one-on-one marketing campaign is concerned, I would agree with you. But, so far as I know, there is not an Apostolic denomination that is conducting a one-on-one campaign except the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses...and they are not Apostolic. Perhaps your church is conducting a successful one-on-one campaign?

In regards to the statistics that you quoted about direct mail vs t.v. saturation, this is a statistic that I would keep to myself, careful to not let that number get out, if I were against t.v. promotion. That one percent is a powerfully compelling argument FOR t.v. World population is 5 + billion souls. One percent of that would be enough to make a couple of angels rejoice over their salvation.

I once visited with a Lutheran pastor that I knew when he first moved to Houston to begin a church. Now, only a few years later on this certain visit, he told me that he now had more than two thousand members and a nice new sanctuary and a school too. I marveled that he had accomplished so much in about ten or twelve years. I asked him how did he do it? He explained that he had received a Parish from his denomination to work with only a very few people to work with in the beginning. He then got those automatic telephone dialing machines that called people all day long up until 9:00 PM with a message. He had several of those things working day and night, seven days. At some point, his congregation built up high enough to reach critical mass. From there, things sort of took off. At the time of the visit, he no longer had the automatic telephone dialing machines.

I don't know if that would work today since people have become so resistant to those dumb machines calling you just about the time you sit down to eat or go to the bathroom. But, television is still the most powerful marketing device ever invented. At least, people can elect to turn those things on or off at will.

[Chewy]

Well, I really wasn't thinking about reputation. But you may have a point.

What I am giving here is an estimation that it won't be effective. All we're going to get, when we're on the air, are a bunch of baptists and charismatics yelling at the TV about grace, trinity, and pharisees. The lost aren't going to tune in. The ones that do are going to assume we're just like all the rest.

The money and effort is better spent on other venues of outreach.

It's also going to introduce some funny quirks, such as pastors admonishing their saints to not believe everything they see on TV, except on channel 9 between 10 and noon. Don't let television influence your life, unless it's my program. I think it's funny already! :killinme

Wow, some of you are looking at this in a worldly sense. You think that TV will relieve the church of its duties to tell people about the Lord. Since when do we operate with the mindset of "IF WE BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME!"??

TV ministry, Church, and custom websites all have the exact same thing in common. People will not go if they are not invited, people will not listen if they are not invited, people will not tune in if they are not told.

How effective would TV be if we went to the nursing homes and hospitals, and with our testimony offer to sit and watch the broadcast with them, answer questions, and follow up?

I guess some are willing to let TV alone do all the work, but c'mon man.

[Chewy]

Have all means been exhausted already? Is TV the final frontier when all else has failed, or is it that we have failed all else?

How many souls are we willing to loose to win that one that you are so concerned for and might that one soul have been reached, with many others, if the movement would actually move and get off the pew.

What other means would you suggest? The days of 1950's door knocking has gone the way of the Edsel and Dot.com millionaires.

Again, the traditional apostolic mindset is this: Maintain our reputation and status quo above all, despite the FACT that the results of ANY and EVERY evangelistic effort are proportional to the effort put forth.

TV has become a tarbaby for the Apostolic Church.

[Theophilus]

What other means would you suggest? The days of 1950's door knocking has gone the way of the Edsel and Dot.com millionaires.

Again, the traditional apostolic mindset is this: Maintain our reputation and status quo above all, despite the FACT that the results of ANY and EVERY evangelistic effort are proportional to the effort put forth.

TV has become a tarbaby for the Apostolic Church.

Who said any thing about the status quo? You?

You suppose now that door knocking cannot reach "just one?"

The FACT of TV "results" is certainly on display and NONE of it is of God.

You're right about maintaining a credible reputation as opposed to selling out to the mind-numbing tap dance. I'm guilty as charged.

[OP_Carl]

What other means would you suggest?

The church can buy a derelict house in an extremely poor neighborhood. They can make it watertight, put some tables and chairs in it, and feed the neighborhood kids on Sundays while their parents are passed out from the drugs/booze. Tell them about Jesus while they're chewing.

The days of 1950's door knocking has gone the way of the Edsel and Dot.com millionaires. I disagree. People still sit in their houses and pray that God would send someone to them. We need to pray God to send us to them, and be led of the spirit to the seekers, and get out of the random blanketing of neighborhoods.

Again, the traditional apostolic mindset is this: Maintain our reputation and status quo above all, despite the FACT that the results of ANY and EVERY evangelistic effort are proportional to the effort put forth. Whatever, man. Suffice it to say our experiences differ . . .

TV has become a tarbaby for the Apostolic Church.Now that right there is funny! :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme

It's an outrage! It's despicable! It's an insult to tarbabies everywhere!

[Chewy]

Who said any thing about the status quo? You?

You suppose now that door knocking cannot reach "just one?"

The FACT of TV "results" is certainly on display and NONE of it is of God.

You're right about maintaining a credible reputation as opposed to selling out to the mind-numbing tap dance. I'm guilty as charged.

I and my wife door knocked for years and years and do you know how many people are in church today as a direct result? 0, none, ziltch, goose-egg, nada. It is an outdated form of outreach. The same with passing out tracts. Do you know how many people are in church today because of my personal relationship with folks? Too many to count.

It is about personal testimony, friendship and trust, regardless of the media.

When talking to someone about Jesus who has been stigmatized against to going to church, what do you say? If you can't go or are not willing to go, at least give it a try, tune into Rod Parsley or TD Jakes, those churches are exactly like ours, you will enjoy it.

Great.

[Brother Strange]

[QUOTE]Televising services and/or being on TBN is of dubious value.

I am aware of a number of people that might disagree with you here. Enter Jim and Tammy Faye. Introduce to you Oral Roberts. May I present to you Bishop Fulton Sheen. Care to get acquainted with Hour of Power, Herbert W. StrongundertheArm? How about Jimmy Swaggard, Rod Parsley, and a long list of others that I could name.

We've got to be careful, however, because this is not the only aspect of the larger television debate.

Right on!

I can see the devil and God in a debate.

"Hey! that's not FAIR! You stole those soul from me because T.V. was MY DOMAIN. You were not suppose come near it. I demand that you give 'em back!

"Sorry. I can't do it. Someone prayed "...thy kingdom come, thy WILL be DONE IN EARTH, as it is done in heaven. Just had to answer that prayer."

"But, I thought your folks were to just let your light shine just in the church houses and not out here on the airwaves."

"Yes, I told my disciples to let their light so shine before MEN that the world may see their GOOD works and glorify their father which is in heaven. They had to use T.V. to shine before men because that is where MEN ARE FOUND...day and night...usually with a beer in their hands."

"Well OK. Tell you what. I would like to buy about half of them back from you. What would you have to have to seal the deal?"

"No deal. They are too precious to me."

"Tell you what. I'll give you half the money in the world if I can buy back ol' Sam Jones because he really served me well before you came into his living room in one of those highrise apartment buildings in New York City and snatched him off his couch and made him a follower of you."

"Still no deal. For ol' sinnin' Sam Jones, I died, giving my own blood on a cruel cross for ol' sinnin' Sam. In fact, all the money in the world could not buy ol' sinnin' Sam from me. Once he is in my hands, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that can be used as barter to get him back. He is mine forever. Yes, I used the media of TV to reach him way up in that apartment in New York that no other media would or could have ever reached him."

"Aaagghaarraaaahhahhhhaaaa and those blasted followers of yours! I almost had them deceived to never go on T.V. because it was a bad influence on their little hand full. It almost worked until someone started teaching and adressing the issues of the heart rather than the evils of T.V."

"Sam, come here and testify, boy. Tell the devil that you are glad, he's mad, because he lost a lad that he thought he had. Testify Sam."

[deadeye]

The days of 1950's door knocking has gone the way of the Edsel and Dot.com millionaires.

I guess that this would explain why the Mormons and the Jaydubs are still doing it with great success.

The problem is that most Apostolics dont want to get off thier lazy rumps and do something.

In fact this is the reason I believe that so many are infatuated by the concept of TV ministry....they feel it will give them growth without personal commitment and sacrifice.

And the article by Kerr was a lousy excuse for TV ministry.

[Chewy]

[QUOTE=OP_Carl;188329]The church can buy a derelict house in an extremely poor neighborhood. They can make it watertight, put some tables and chairs in it, and feed the neighborhood kids on Sundays while their parents are passed out from the drugs/booze. Tell them about Jesus while they're chewing.

Wow, this sounds more tangible and effective than TV. :lol

I disagree. People still sit in their houses and pray that God would send someone to them. We need to pray God to send us to them, and be led of the spirit to the seekers, and get out of the random blanketing of neighborhoods.

You actually agree with me. I said that random blanketing of neighborhoods is ineffective, outdated, and did I say a misuse of resources?

You disagreed with my statement that a minstry effort is only as effective as the effort put forth to support that ministry effort? Hmmm, I thought that was soul wining and church growth 101.

[The Swordsman]

1Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

[Chewy]

I guess that this would explain why the Mormons and the Jaydubs are still doing it with great success.

The problem is that most Apostolics dont want to get off thier lazy rumps and do something.

In fact this is the reason I believe that so many are infatuated by the concept of TV ministry....they feel it will give them growth without personal commitment and sacrifice.

And the article by Kerr was a lousy excuse for TV ministry.

Yea, the mormons and Jdubs are really winning souls. I hear all the time folks saying how thankful they were for those weirdos knocking on their doors on Saturday mornings.

I agree with the fact that Apostolics don't want to get off their lazy butts. This is really acknowledged by the conservative leadership when they stand against TV in principal. They are certain that only 20% constituency will do 80% of the work, therefore making TV unsuccessful in reaching souls.

:D

[Steve Epley]

I guess that this would explain why the Mormons and the Jaydubs are still doing it with great success.

The problem is that most Apostolics dont want to get off thier lazy rumps and do something.

In fact this is the reason I believe that so many are infatuated by the concept of TV ministry....they feel it will give them growth without personal commitment and sacrifice.

And the article by Kerr was a lousy excuse for TV ministry.

That is a mouthful and it is the truth. Let everyone else do it but me.

[Chewy]

That is a mouthful and it is the truth. Let everyone else do it but me.

Let TV do the job, EVERYONE loves TV!


:killinme:slaphappy:killinme

[deadeye]

I think there needs to be a emphasis on personal outreach.

We have a Swanns man that has been working in our town for the last month or so and he asked me for some cards, in the course of his day he handed one to a older couple and the next sunday the were in church and haven't missed. This sunsay she was praying and seeking the Lord.
I knocked on the door of a JW one time and 3 months later baptized her in Jesus name. Me and a brother used to do finding the field surveys and got and taught bibles studies as a result.
We have been working our nieghborhood and have seen several in church and one recieve the HG.

Dont tell me that door knocking and personal work doesn't work.

[Chewy]

I think there needs to be a emphasis on personal outreach.

We have a Swanns man that has been working in our town for the last month or so and he asked me for some cards, in the course of his day he handed one to a older couple and the next sunday the were in church and haven't missed. This sunsay she was praying and seeking the Lord.
I knocked on the door of a JW one time and 3 months later baptized her in Jesus name. Me and a brother used to do finding the field surveys and got and taught bibles studies as a result.
We have been working our nieghborhood and have seen several in church and one recieve the HG.

Dont tell me that door knocking and personal work doesn't work.

Door knocking at random don't work. Personal work does.

[OP_Carl]

[QUOTE]

Wow, this sounds more tangible and effective than TV. :lol

Laugh on, funnyboy. It works.


You actually agree with me. I said that random blanketing of neighborhoods is ineffective, outdated, and did I say a misuse of resources?

You disagreed with my statement that a minstry effort is only as effective as the effort put forth to support that ministry effort? Hmmm, I thought that was soul wining and church growth 101.

What . . . . . the . . . . . . . huh ??????

Yes we have no bananas.

[OP_Carl]

"Tell you what. I'll give you half the money in the world if I can buy back ol' Sam Jones because he really served me well before you came into his living room in one of those highrise apartment buildings in New York City and snatched him off his couch and made him a follower of you."

Yes, Elder, I have heard the 'gated community' argument.

I counter with the 'what happened to my preacher' argument.

It isn't as though we are simply going to plop a camera down at the back of the room, pipe the sound out, and have church as usual. The camera will be moving. The lights will be moving. There will be producers and directors.

All this extra commotion is going to affect people. It's going to affect the congregation. It's going to affect the people who are normally on the platform. And it can't help but to affect your preacher's mind. Now he has the extra weight of knowing that his words are being carried to people who will have no familiarity whatsoever with church lingo and euphemisms. He's going to start pulling punches. He's going to start second-guessing himself. He's going to select topics based on sales criteria, not needs. He might even get the big head.

The services will be scripted instead of spirit-led. :(

The devil also knows that if he takes down the shepherd, the sheep will be scattered. This gives the devil a new avenue to reach the pastor.

Good old one-in-a-million Sam might not be reached right there in his high-rise. But he might also go for a walk . . .

It's a lot of distraction and energy, and we don't need it. We need more of God. When Sam walks in, he needs a genuine encounter with God.

[deadeye]

I will admit that door knocking at random may not always be the best way to go at it. But I also know that it HAS worked for me. As I mentioned about the JW and the HBS's that we have had from door knocking.
We are presently knocking the doors on the north side of our city and we are making some good contacts.
A couple of weeks ago we knocked on the door of a lady and that Sunday she was in church and we are working on getting a Bible study started.
A friend of mine pastors a church that runs in the hundreds and he went into an area and started that church by door knocking and Finding the Field surveys.

Door knocking with a purpose and plan does work.

[Brother Strange]

Yes, Elder, I have heard the 'gated community' argument.

I counter with the 'what happened to my preacher' argument.

It isn't as though we are simply going to plop a camera down at the back of the room, pipe the sound out, and have church as usual. The camera will be moving. The lights will be moving. There will be producers and directors.

All this extra commotion is going to affect people. It's going to affect the congregation. It's going to affect the people who are normally on the platform. And it can't help but to affect your preacher's mind. Now he has the extra weight of knowing that his words are being carried to people who will have no familiarity whatsoever with church lingo and euphemisms. He's going to start pulling punches. He's going to start second-guessing himself. He's going to select topics based on sales criteria, not needs. He might even get the big head.

The services will be scripted instead of spirit-led. :(

The devil also knows that if he takes down the shepherd, the sheep will be scattered. This gives the devil a new avenue to reach the pastor.

Good old one-in-a-million Sam might not be reached right there in his high-rise. But he might also go for a walk . . .

It's a lot of distraction and energy, and we don't need it. We need more of God. When Sam walks in, he needs a geniune encounter with God.

I carefully sifted through this little pile of speculation and found no substance. I'm sure that you have some substance behind this somewhere. Have you tried it? Know someone else who has?

Who can argue with Jimmy Swaggart, Paul Crotch Crotch and teary eyed Tammy Faye that the electronic media does not reach souls?

I certainly have a great deal of respect for any argument put forth that contain a little provable substance rather than speculations, not a few.

[OP_Carl]

I carefully sifted through this little pile of speculation and found no substance. I'm sure that you have some substance behind this somewhere. Have you tried it? Know someone else who has?

I certainly have a great deal of respect for any argument put forth that contain a little provable substance rather than speculations, not a few. And you would charactarize your imaginary scenario about high-rise Sam Jones as . . . . not speculation?

Who can argue with Jimmy Swaggart, Paul Crotch Crotch and teary eyed Tammy Faye that the electronic media does not reach souls?

I don't have the data in front of me, unfortunately. But what I posted earlier in this thread was summarized of statistics I read within the last few months. These statistics indicated that the Swaggarts and Bakkers of the world are "reaching" and "saving" people that already have some sort of church experience. People are moving between denominations and ministries, but aren't really being dragged in off the streets. But, hey, look at all the cash!

Everybody really needs to let this soak in: Less than ONE PERCENT of viewers of religious programming DON'T CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE "SAVED." I think it was 0.4% 99.6% of the viewers aren't going to be seeking salvation. They'll be interested in catchy sermons and new songs, that's it.

So we're going to spend all this money on production equipment, pep and jazz the saints to believe that this is really reaching the lost, and when it's all said and done, we're still preaching to the choir.

[South of I 90]

And the article by Kerr was a lousy excuse for TV ministry.


It's not a lousy excuse!

It's another valid reason for TV ministry!!! :thumbsup

[LadyRev]

:igotit


Let the women keep silent

I started and maintained a nursing home ministry for 7 years. My pastor believed if you were called to preach you should go find a place to preach. He said not to expect to get all your preaching time in at home or in any other pulpit. He didn't help me start the ministry, he didn't participate in the ministry, he was simply there for me when I needed him to be for guidance and advise.

Some of my most cherished memories and pictures are of nursing home services. We only baptized one in those 7 years but thats one that Satan can't claim.

If you aren't for TV ministry for these people then perhaps you should go start a "live and in person" ministry. And remember, someday, it could be YOU in such a place.

[Sheltiedad]

I will admit that door knocking at random may not always be the best way to go at it. But I also know that it HAS worked for me. As I mentioned about the JW and the HBS's that we have had from door knocking.
We are presently knocking the doors on the north side of our city and we are making some good contacts.
A couple of weeks ago we knocked on the door of a lady and that Sunday she was in church and we are working on getting a Bible study started.
A friend of mine pastors a church that runs in the hundreds and he went into an area and started that church by door knocking and Finding the Field surveys.

Door knocking with a purpose and plan does work.

Our entire neighborhood has a no solicitation policy... I love my neighborhood.

[Chewy]

Our entire neighborhood has a no solicitation policy... I love my neighborhood.

:toofunny :lol :hanky :bow

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Our entire neighborhood has a no solicitation policy... I love my neighborhood.

And since you would not attend an Apostolic church again, TV would not affect you as you changed the channel either.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Door knocking at random don't work. Personal work does.

How then, did TV take over Personal Evangelism?

:blah:blah:blah:blah

[Trouvere]

Door knocking does work.I know of several people who have been won to Jesus
by one on one contact.Sister Vesta Mangun knocked on my friends door when
she lived in Alexandria.She has been a faithful saint since receiving the message.
Don't knock the door knock.

[RandyWayne]

Door knocking does work but as a % of success I think it ranks not just behind TV advertising, but telemarketing as well.

All I know is that our church has been broadcasting a program on cable access and have had many people walk in as a result. That doesn't mean that long periods of time don't go by between visitors but it seems that just when you think nothing is happening there will be two strangers and their families in as many weeks pop up.

And cable access is NOT that expensive. Also, you can't judge it based on how many people you see show up in church, but by how many are watching and effected. Seeds are being planted!

[Chewy]

How then, did TV take over Personal Evangelism?

:blah:blah:blah:blah

This is like asking how the hammer took over for the swinging of the hammer.

[Sheltiedad]

We need to talk to the major advertisers and get them to start knocking doors instead of spending it on superbowl commercials...

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

We need to talk to the major advertisers and get them to start knocking doors instead of spending it on superbowl commercials...


Great Argument. Has the appeal of meatloaf.

You are getting more silly by the minute.

What church will take out a 2 million dollar add between cheerleaders and filthy commercials with lewd suggestions and situations.

Next, why don't you suggest we put the church name on Beer Glass coasters?

[Sheltiedad]

I was just making the point that television is effective or advertisers would not throw money at it like they do.

I said nothing about churches shelling out millions of dollars on commercials. I am arguing against the delusion that the church should not use methods that reach the masses to spread the Gospel... if that is still the goal...

[NLYP]

This strawman would hold credulance more so if those on TV were having sweeping numbers due to TV alone as outreach.

Even business marketing will tell you the best form of growth is one-on-one referrals. TV is expensive and about as effective as direct maill 1 % of saturation.

Hate to burst your bubble Boom...but you cant argue with facts...so here is facts..

in 2006 we spent 30,000 in funeral home commercials that were professionally done by MKJ Marketing and here were our results..
We gained 18 funerals last year and THE most given reason for using us was "We saw your lovely family on your tv ads."
So BOOM...it increased my call volume by 18 and my $$$ by 126,000.


Imagine if just ONE soul says...we are here because we saw your ad.
I say its worth every penny and even the fuss the Cons are kicking up!!!!

It all boils down to this question...HOW valuable is a soul?????????

I cannot believe we are even voting on such a stupid question!

[NLYP]

1.
So the truth finally comes out!! The big push for TV is not for evangelism but convenience. It would be much easier to ask the shut-ins to turn to channel 4 than drive over and actually visit, minister and pray with them.

I am not an "Elder" in ministry and this is only my 23rd post on AFF but I pray to God that I never get to the place that I would make this type of decision based upon the convenience factor.

2.
What?!?! Having the Pastor there 24/7??
I doubt that they would be watching the program 24/7.

Looney....your name lives up to itself!

Are you REALLY that shallow or is this a joke???

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Hate to burst your bubble Boom...but you cant argue with facts...so here is facts..

in 2006 we spent 30,000 in funeral home commercials that were professionally done by MKJ Marketing and here were our results..
We gained 18 funerals last year and THE most given reason for using us was "We saw your lovely family on your tv ads."
So BOOM...it increased my call volume by 18 and my $$$ by 126,000.


Imagine if just ONE soul says...we are here because we saw your ad.
I say its worth every penny and even the fuss the Cons are kicking up!!!!

It all boils down to this question...HOW valuable is a soul?????????

I cannot believe we are even voting on such a stupid question!

Tell me how this related to a church at all?

Tell me how the Articles of Faith you agree to bi-annually. (I think it is this year we all sign new cards) tell me how the AOF can allow a man to have a TV when the bylaws say the man cannot.

Great news on the business. Still no ALJC churches of 10000 I have heard of. The only one I heard of was the one in Tennessee using Limos to pick up people including Sunday school kids in.

:drama

How many churches even attempt a Radio Ad costing $1000 either?

[Old Paths]

The Truth about TV advertisement and broadcasting Church services on tv.


Wait!

Who me?

Are you talking to meeeee about personal evangelism?

Surely not.

I'm too busy.

Let the church go on tv.

Let someone/anyone else do it.

I can't even imagine meeeee standing at someone's door with a tract in my hand.

IF the church will pay out the big bucks for tv advertisement or church broadcasting, then Mr./Mrs Lazy Pentecost can sit on their wide loads watching all the filth on tv and feel good about themselves "reaching the lost".

Pentecostals advertising on TV is the modern Laodiceans' answer to "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing".

I can afford it, so it must be the will of God.

It's all about MEEEEEEE!

I wanta be a star!

Never mind the disgraceful stigma of the Crouchs, Allens, Swaggarts and CO.

Not too hot, not too cold, lukewarm.

Makes God want to puke.

[stmatthew]

By Ruth Ann Kerr

Now that we have the Tenneys on TBN to discuss, I suppose the discussion over conscientious scruples will go on the back burner for now. No comments in this missive on either topic.

But, I do want to speak in favor of Apostolics taking to the tube for a reason I have yet to see mentioned as a ministry to the sick and the shut-in.

However, I realize, that just as Madison Avenue looks at the American spending pool as hip and 18-30, so do some Apostolics validate/endorse/approve ministry only if it extends to those who are able bodied and still young enough to march for missions, run aisles, and help with the annual peanut brittle event or Sheaves for Christ rock-a-thon.

My 80+ year-old mother passed away in 2001 and she had, as long as physically able, attended church “every time the doors were opened” for nearly 60 years. Bed-ridden from cancer several months before her demise, TV became more important to her than ever. It was her only link to church services, to any corporate move of God at all.

My saint of a father and unchurched family members and I collectively say “Thank God!” for T. D. Jakes and a handful of P.A.W. churches who preached doctrinally-sound sermons and sang and worshipped each week. Mom prayed along with them, said “Amen” during the preaching, and tapped her fingers to and sang along with the music.

Now the argument against being on TV for this purpose would be that our churches should have nursing home ministries and outreaches to the elderly and shut-in. Would that were the case! So few Apostolic churches have such ministries/outreaches in place. As a body, we don’t even seem to be able to erect just one nursing/retirement home anywhere.

For my mom, requests to her church of 50+ years elicited less-than-sporadic phone calls and even fewer visits (until the last two weeks of her life). Of course, faithful saint that she was, her tithing checks were mailed right on time each month. No one came with Communion, no one came with singing, no one came with Bible lessons or even “sermonettes.” I see the same turn of events taking place now with my 91-year-old father who is too ill to make the trip to church. His only links with a church body are the same ones available to my mother. Elderly people, I have learned, are very understanding, you see, of how busy their church leadership/family is.

Folks may not want to ask Dad whether we should use TV or not he’ll quickly tell you in great detail about the advent of “crystal radios” and how every sermon warned against that wicked tool of the Anti-Christ. He may not be able to remember what he had for lunch today, but just ask him to relate how “the Church” has changed its collective mind about many things through the years and you’ll get vivid detail, because “the Church” has been his life.

When the UPCI, or any other Oneness organization for that matter, is ready to step up to the proverbial plate and put as much emphasis on meeting needs of church-members and the community at large as it puts on how many more conferences we can schedule this year or how many more books we can write about how people should look, perhaps even our seniors and other shut-ins can still feel like they really are part of a body of believers.

For just a few minutes…a few short minutes…can we refrain from standing in front of a mirror, or holding the mirror up to someone else, and take a really honest look at the needs of the world around us, even the needs of those who support us, put food on our tables, pay our way to General Conference, and send our children to private schools? I realize that, for many, “image is everything,” but let’s be real, folks image isn’t as much to Jesus as it is to us.

As a holder of a General License with the UPCI, I am committed now more than ever to preaching the whole gospel of Jesus Christ. And, after exhausting every sermon available on the Mighty God in Christ, love and compassion for the lost, redemption, reconciliation, and remission of sin, I’ll surely have ample time to preach against the evils of TV and other mass media and will do just that. I promise. Cross my heart.

Yet right now, at this particular intersection of time and opportunity, I simply want to be sure that every hungry heart I know young, old, “saved” or not has the invitation to become acquainted with the love and tender mercies of Jesus Christ. And that every one I encounter knows that he or she is loved and cared for by the Body of Christ (us).

Wasn’t it during the Russian revolution, as people marched in the streets and their country was falling apart, that the Russian Orthodox church leaders were behind closed doors trying to decide what color buttons to sew on their robes and whether or not to use a napkin with the communion chalice?

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra, “It’s déjà vu all over again.”

TD is now preaching "doctrinally sound" messages. I do not think the man ever preaches doctrine at all, much less "true doctrine".

[stmatthew]

I leave you pro tv folks with Leonard Ravenhills indictment.


"You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it."

[Hoovie]

Hate to burst your bubble Boom...but you cant argue with facts...so here is facts..

in 2006 we spent 30,000 in funeral home commercials that were professionally done by MKJ Marketing and here were our results..
We gained 18 funerals last year and THE most given reason for using us was "We saw your lovely family on your tv ads."
So BOOM...it increased my call volume by 18 and my $$$ by 126,000.


Imagine if just ONE soul says...we are here because we saw your ad.
I say its worth every penny and even the fuss the Cons are kicking up!!!!

It all boils down to this question...HOW valuable is a soul?????????

I cannot believe we are even voting on such a stupid question!


Dan, thanks for sharing these numbers. Is the $30,000.00 increase in advertising a good buy when only realizing a gross increase of $126,000.00?

In my business I try to keep the advertising budget at about 6-8% of gross. I am just curious and realize the nature of business and overhead dictates different strategies.

On the issue of the thread I agree, it is, or rather should be, a non-issue.

Steve

[NLYP]

Tell me how this related to a church at all?

Tell me how the Articles of Faith you agree to bi-annually. (I think it is this year we all sign new cards) tell me how the AOF can allow a man to have a TV when the bylaws say the man cannot.

Great news on the business. Still no ALJC churches of 10000 I have heard of. The only one I heard of was the one in Tennessee using Limos to pick up people including Sunday school kids in.

:drama

How many churches even attempt a Radio Ad costing $1000 either?

As a DS told me.....the Articles of Faith are the acts 2 new birth messagge.

[RandyWayne]

I worked for a management consulting company for a short time and one thing that stood out was how much MORE, as a percentage of income, they spent on advertising versus smaller, less successful companies. The Proctor and Gambles and Kimberly Clarks routinely spent 4-8% versus smaller mom and pop business who felt they "couldn't afford it". The average amount a SMALL business spends is 1-1.5%.

[NLYP]

Dan, thanks for sharing these numbers. Is the $30,000.00 increase in advertising a good buy when only realizing a gross increase of $126,000.00?

In my business I try to keep the advertising budget at about 6-8% of gross. I am just curious and realize the nature of business and overhead dictates different strategies.

On the issue of the thread I agree, it is, or rather should be, a non-issue.

Steve

It was an upfront production cost of 30,000.00...we run them 5 times a day on fox, cnn, lifetime and discovery.....for 7$ per 30 second commercial.

Once the initial investment is over....its just smooth sailing.

[NLYP]

TD is now preaching "doctrinally sound" messages. I do not think the man ever preaches doctrine at all, much less "true doctrine".

Here we wholeheartedly disagree!

[NLYP]

The Truth about TV advertisement and broadcasting Church services on tv.


Wait!

Who me?

Are you talking to meeeee about personal evangelism?

Surely not.

I'm too busy.

Let the church go on tv.

Let someone/anyone else do it.

I can't even imagine meeeee standing at someone's door with a tract in my hand.

IF the church will pay out the big bucks for tv advertisement or church broadcasting, then Mr./Mrs Lazy Pentecost can sit on their wide loads watching all the filth on tv and feel good about themselves "reaching the lost".

Pentecostals advertising on TV is the modern Laodiceans' answer to "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing".

I can afford it, so it must be the will of God.

It's all about MEEEEEEE!

I wanta be a star!

Never mind the disgraceful stigma of the Crouchs, Allens, Swaggarts and CO.

Not too hot, not too cold, lukewarm.

Makes God want to puke.

NO...what makes God puke is you thinking you know what makes him puke!!!!!!

[NLYP]

Tell me how this related to a church at all?

Tell me how the Articles of Faith you agree to bi-annually. (I think it is this year we all sign new cards) tell me how the AOF can allow a man to have a TV when the bylaws say the man cannot.

Great news on the business. Still no ALJC churches of 10000 I have heard of. The only one I heard of was the one in Tennessee using Limos to pick up people including Sunday school kids in.

:drama

How many churches even attempt a Radio Ad costing $1000 either?

And once again you prove that the AS was a sham and a slam on the spirit of our merger!

As far as the ALJC goes......They also have had TV and maintained "holiness".
MOST of the guys think TV will take away from holiness.
Not a good idea on your part to use the ALJC as an example of why NOT to have tv.

I will be among the many hundreds that will sign my card.......and the rest is history.

[stmatthew]

I leave you pro tv folks with Leonard Ravenhills indictment.


"You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it."

Bump :D

[Steve Epley]

The Truth about TV advertisement and broadcasting Church services on tv.


Wait!

Who me?

Are you talking to meeeee about personal evangelism?

Surely not.

I'm too busy.

Let the church go on tv.

Let someone/anyone else do it.

I can't even imagine meeeee standing at someone's door with a tract in my hand.

IF the church will pay out the big bucks for tv advertisement or church broadcasting, then Mr./Mrs Lazy Pentecost can sit on their wide loads watching all the filth on tv and feel good about themselves "reaching the lost".

Pentecostals advertising on TV is the modern Laodiceans' answer to "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing".

I can afford it, so it must be the will of God.

It's all about MEEEEEEE!

I wanta be a star!

Never mind the disgraceful stigma of the Crouchs, Allens, Swaggarts and CO.

Not too hot, not too cold, lukewarm.

Makes God want to puke.

The absolute truth.

[Steve Epley]

I leave you pro tv folks with Leonard Ravenhills indictment.


"You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it."

Now there is a thought!

[stmatthew]

I leave you pro tv folks with Leonard Ravenhills indictment.


"You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it."

Now there is a thought!

Elder,

You and I alike know this has nothing to do with advertising on tv. It has everything to do with Licensed ministers justifying the tv they already have in their home.

How is it that the disciples turned their city upside down without tv??

[NLYP]

Elder,

You and I alike know this has nothing to do with advertising on tv. It has everything to do with Licensed ministers justifying the tv they already have in their home.

How is it that the disciples turned their city upside down without tv??

BULL BUTTER...BULL CORN...and BULL HOCKEY!!!
Its about evangelism!
I am not ashamed of whats in my home and have never ever hid whats in my home and need no reason to "justify" anything.!
PERIOD!

[Hoovie]

Elder,

You and I alike know this has nothing to do with advertising on tv. It has everything to do with Licensed ministers justifying the tv they already have in their home.
How is it that the disciples turned their city upside down without tv??

Suppose someone does have such a motive and wishes to remove a mote in the eye... This is then a bad thing?

Were you not in fellowship with the ALJC?

[Hoovie]

:slaphappy

I perceiveth NLYP is full of vim and vinegar!

[NLYP]

:slaphappy

I perceiveth NLYP is full of vim and vinegar!

what on earth is vim???

[Hoovie]

what on earth is vim???

vim (vm) KEY

NOUN:

Ebullient vitality and energy

It's a good thing!

[bdlooney]

Looney....your name lives up to itself!

Are you REALLY that shallow or is this a joke???

How am I the one perceived as shallow? I did not suggest airing services on television based upon convenience in relation to shutins.

[NLYP]

It was an upfront production cost of 30,000.00...we run them 5 times a day on fox, cnn, lifetime and discovery.....for 7$ per 30 second commercial.

Once the initial investment is over....its just smooth sailing.

BUMP for HOOVER!

[stmatthew]

Suppose someone does have such a motive and wishes to remove a mote in the eye... This is then a bad thing?

Were you not in fellowship with the ALJC?

I have been in the past. I am currently in a UPC church, though not having any desire to license with them.



I have no problem with those that want change. I just feel their integrity comes into question when they willfully have something within their home and sign that they are compliant to the current constitution of the UPCI. I was always taught that that is telling a lie.

BUT from everything I understand, even if RES #6 is passed, it still would not open up for the minister to have tv within their homes.

[Hoovie]

BUMP for HOOVER!

Yes I see that, and it makes sense. Initially I thought the 30,000 was reoccuring annually.

[NLYP]

How am I the one perceived as shallow? I did not suggest airing services on television based upon convenience in relation to shutins.

YOUR QUOTE!

So the truth finally comes out!! The big push for TV is not for evangelism but convenience. It would be much easier to ask the shut-ins to turn to channel 4 than drive over and actually visit, minister and pray with them.

I am not an "Elder" in ministry and this is only my 23rd post on AFF but I pray to God that I never get to the place that I would make this type of decision based upon the convenience factor.

2.
What?!?! Having the Pastor there 24/7??
I doubt that they would be watching the program 24/7.[/QUOTE]

It was written in complete sarcasim....
But my friend there is hope for you....rumor has it your just a little close to actually wearing a 3/4 sleeve!!!!!!!

LOL


There is hope for you!

[NLYP]

YOUR QUOTE!

So the truth finally comes out!! The big push for TV is not for evangelism but convenience. It would be much easier to ask the shut-ins to turn to channel 4 than drive over and actually visit, minister and pray with them.

I am not an "Elder" in ministry and this is only my 23rd post on AFF but I pray to God that I never get to the place that I would make this type of decision based upon the convenience factor.

2.
What?!?! Having the Pastor there 24/7??
I doubt that they would be watching the program 24/7.



By the way Looney one...care to explain the bolded part!

[Hoovie]

I have been in the past. I am currently in a UPC church, though not having any desire to license with them.



I have no problem with those that want change. I just feel their integrity comes into question when they willfully have something within their home and sign that they are compliant to the current constitution of the UPCI. I was always taught that that is telling a lie.

BUT from everything I understand, even if RES #6 is passed, it still would not open up for the minister to have tv within their homes.

Serious question; Is the any room for technocality here? Does it make any difference at all as to the ownership? I mean you are accusing men of lieing, so we must get technical. To me it is all quite silly. I watch very little TV and am not "wired" in any way... cable, satelite etc., but let me be real clear.... this is not because of any prohibition by anyone or any church.

[bdlooney]

By the way Looney one...care to explain the bolded part!

This type of decision- the decision of airing services on television.

Is this what you are looking for? I may have misunderstood what you were getting at.

[NLYP]

This type of decision- the decision of airing services on television.

Is this what you are looking for? I may have misunderstood what you were getting at.

You make such a small issue sound like we are trying to pass a abortion law.
Its no big deal Brandon.......Really its not.
As you grow and step out you will see.

[bdlooney]

By the way Looney one...care to explain the bolded part!

You make such a small issue sound like we are trying to pass a abortion law.
Its no big deal Brandon.......Really its not.
As you grow and step out you will see.

First of all, I may not be a "Dan C." but I am not stunted in terms of growth. (I am not saying you called me stunted; just a statement of fact.)

It may be a small issue today but down the road we may look back and see that we did pass an abortion law...spiritual abortion. TV holds NOTHING but filth and carnality and we know that carnality puts enmity between me and God.

1 Samuel 8 tells how the children of Israel wanted a king to rule over them so that they would be like the other nations. This displeased Samuel but the Lord told him that the Jews were not rejecting Samuel but that they were rejecting God and his reign over them.

I am afraid that we are seeking a king. We are seeking something that will make us fit in with those around us. While we SEEK a king we will RECIEVE a dictator.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

And once again you prove that the AS was a sham and a slam on the spirit of our merger!

As far as the ALJC goes......They also have had TV and maintained "holiness".
MOST of the guys think TV will take away from holiness.
Not a good idea on your part to use the ALJC as an example of why NOT to have tv.

I will be among the many hundreds that will sign my card.......and the rest is history.

Your pretense is that this is all you need to win the world.

I hope you prove us wrong by this time next year, if but for the sake of millions lost. I know I could give thousands to a Bible School over seas and know that for every xx dollars, a soul is won over there. WITHOUT a TV.

I see the AOG in the 60's and the PAW in the 70's showed once TV was let loose, it was all downhill.

If you actually feel you can have Hollywood in your home, maybe you did not remember reading the manual. My District gave me a lengthy involved app where I had to tell Section, Verse, and Paragraph where Ministers are Forbidden to have Television in their homes. I never shirked at saying I still believe that to be true today. I do not have to send in a letter of denial or answer for what is in my home. I can tell you what is NOT there.

[stmatthew]

I leave you pro tv folks with Leonard Ravenhills indictment.


"You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it."


:bump

[mizpeh]

:bump

Jesus drew huge crowds without paying for advertising. Miracles, healings, deliverance all advertise themselves through word of mouth. I listened to this report today of God moving outside the USA in miraculous ways:

http://www.theosophical.blogspot.com/

Scroll down the first article and you'll find the link. It's about revival all over the world.

[The Dean]

BULL BUTTER...BULL CORN...and BULL HOCKEY!!!
Its about evangelism!
I am not ashamed of whats in my home and have never ever hid whats in my home and need no reason to "justify" anything.!
PERIOD!



NLYP, a post like this doesn't help your image at all. I think most people think lying is lying even on an Affirmation Statement.

I don't understand NOT being ashamed of openly lying. NLYP, you have a strange way about you. One that most find confusing I suspect.

[The Dean]

I leave you pro tv folks with Leonard Ravenhills indictment.


"You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it."

BRAVO!

[NLYP]

First of all, I may not be a "Dan C." but I am not stunted in terms of growth. (I am not saying you called me stunted; just a statement of fact.)

It may be a small issue today but down the road we may look back and see that we did pass an abortion law...spiritual abortion. TV holds NOTHING but filth and carnality and we know that carnality puts enmity between me and God.

1 Samuel 8 tells how the children of Israel wanted a king to rule over them so that they would be like the other nations. This displeased Samuel but the Lord told him that the Jews were not rejecting Samuel but that they were rejecting God and his reign over them.

I am afraid that we are seeking a king. We are seeking something that will make us fit in with those around us. While we SEEK a king we will RECIEVE a dictator.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

The ONLY way that I would take you words as credible, my friend, is if you threw away your internet...it is filled with filth as well. Consistency is the key.
Also......An old retired TEXAS UPC minister told me recently...."The reason TV and Hollywood are so evil is because, Satan is the prive of the power of the air...which includes the airwaves....The airwaves it the only place we have been scared enough, that we have been unwilling to meet him on his own turf"

That just made WAAAAYYYYY to much sense from that dear amn to ignore.

[NLYP]

NLYP, a post like this doesn't help your image at all. I think most people think lying is lying even on an Affirmation Statement.

I don't understand NOT being ashamed of openly lying. NLYP, you have a strange way about you. One that most find confusing I suspect.

You certainly did not have to be "The Dean" to tell me that.
Plus...I never said what was in my home...did I?
So I see no open Lie here.
So basically you publically labeled me a liar without knowing what or if I have in my home.
hmmm interesting........
My point was that whatever I have or dont have in my home I dont have to justify to anybody and if you read the post....I certainly dont want to pass tv so I can "legally have one in my home.

[Trouvere]

So you are saying that they should be there 24/7????
Seems to me having a 24/7 church program would be alot more conveient for all those involved.
I know I would not want my Pastor over all day everyday.

Then how about one day any day??? It seems Ruth's pastor and church didn't.
Think really think about what its like to older with no fellowship.
Sorry Brother Epley was right on this one.The church dropped the
ball on ministering to this sisters parents.What is wrong with
dvd's they could play over and over?Every service could be brought
to these people.She did say her mom had tv.Even cd's or tapes would have
been better.Its a shame the world moves so fast but then I don't get paid
by Jesus daily in monetary funds and have a responsibility to the congregation
when they are old and sick.A visit now and then would surfice.He did not
have to visit 24/7.I hope somebody visits me when I am old.Hey in your
forties its not that far down the road but of course I plan to lay dying on
the back pew if I get sick because I am not missing church.

[Brother Strange]

[QUOTE=OP_Carl;188419]And you would charactarize your imaginary scenario about high-rise Sam Jones as . . . . not speculation?



I don't have the data in front of me, unfortunately. But what I posted earlier in this thread was summarized of statistics I read within the last few months. These statistics indicated that the Swaggarts and Bakkers of the world are "reaching" and "saving" people that already have some sort of church experience. People are moving between denominations and ministries, but aren't really being dragged in off the streets. But, hey, look at all the cash!

So does that mean that we good Apostolics should not be "reaching" and "saving" people that already have some sort of church experience? Interesting concept there. People are moving between denominations and ministries. It is very interesting that you do not believe that they should be moving between all the other denominations to the APOSTOLIC persuasion. Perhaps the Apostolic persuasion is not WORTHY of these good religious folk???

And, what is wrong with the cash? You are against folk giving to what they believe in? If that were the case, Apostolic churches and ministries would be cash dry very quickly. Then, what would become of the Work of God?

Everybody really needs to let this soak in: Less than ONE PERCENT of viewers of religious programming DON'T CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE "SAVED." I think it was 0.4% 99.6% of the viewers aren't going to be seeking salvation. They'll be interested in catchy sermons and new songs, that's it.

Now that it has soaked in...

So, we'll just let that 99.6% continue believing that they ARE saved? That's a very interesting twist indeed. Who knows for sure? MAYBE THEY ARE SAVED? NOT!

Of course those 99.6% are not going to be seeking salvation. Why should they? They have been pacified by the power of the lie. It would be interesting to learn what the power of the truth could do to that 99.6%

You've heard the story of the two American shoe salesmen that went to Africa to do some market research for their respective shoe manufacturers. The first salesmen returned to America and said, "There's no hope of selling shoes there. No one wears shoes at all." The other salesman wired back to his superiors saying, "Send me a ship load of every size. No one here has any shoes at all."

So we're going to spend all this money on production equipment, pep and jazz the saints to believe that this is really reaching the lost, and when it's all said and done, we're still preaching to the choir.

Again, this is very interesting. I don't consider the LOST who are self-satisfied in other denominations "the choir." If they are the choir, as you say, then THAT choir needs to be preached to.

T.V. land is desolate of "shoes." Let us send a boat load. There is a vacuum in the maket place that needs to be filled with Apostolic TRUTH. Yes, even the bum on the street watches T.V.

[Brother Strange]

I leave you pro tv folks with Leonard Ravenhills indictment.


"You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it."

Matthew,

I think that you know me well enough to know that if I knew where a true Holy Ghost fire of God is blazing, you would find me getting there on the morning train.

The facts are, though God has never changed, people have. In what way has people changed? The power of the media has captured people's imaginations and have shifted the manner in which people think.

At one time, you beat a few tin pans to get people's attention, then stand on a busy street corner and have a crowd to preach to. Or, you could put up a tent, go through the neighborhoods with a bull horn to advertise it and that first night of the tent meeting, you would have a crowd.

This is not true anymore. The electronic media such as games, movies, t.v. and even the blackberry and now the iphone has got people's attentions. If the message that we have cannot compete for their attentions, there will be no fire at all...much less the crowd running after the fire. The attentions of the people must be arrested and refocused upon the Word of God, faith, righteousness and true holiness. This cannot happen cloistered.

However, the Lord once showed me of a time that the true men of God would have the world's attention. There was an awful lot of death involved, but it shure got the world's attention alright. But that time is not here yet, but it is coming.

[Sheltiedad]

If Paul was standing on the street corner now... most people would walk right past him... you don't believe me? Walk down any downtown street in any major city and look at the preachers preaching to the people waiting for the park-and-ride bus (who are looking at their watches and wishing the guy would stop yelling) and the same homeless people that you see EVERY day and slip a fiver to, to make yourself feel good every now and then. Everyone is trying to save everyone else and everyone has their own idea of what it takes to be saved.

[Old Paths]

First of all, I may not be a "Dan C." but I am not stunted in terms of growth. (I am not saying you called me stunted; just a statement of fact.)

It may be a small issue today but down the road we may look back and see that we did pass an abortion law...spiritual abortion. TV holds NOTHING but filth and carnality and we know that carnality puts enmity between me and God.

1 Samuel 8 tells how the children of Israel wanted a king to rule over them so that they would be like the other nations. This displeased Samuel but the Lord told him that the Jews were not rejecting Samuel but that they were rejecting God and his reign over them.

I am afraid that we are seeking a king. We are seeking something that will make us fit in with those around us. While we SEEK a king we will RECIEVE a dictator.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.



Very good

[Old Paths]

Anyone remember that "God adds to the Church daily".

It's not ALL in my hand.

John 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Seems like the Spirit is supposed to be involved in soul winning, you know the Spirit leads you to a person that the Spirit is convicting.

But that would mean the person doing the witnessing had to be "Spiritual".

That alone disqualifies most and so we neeeeeeeeeed tv to reach the lost.

[Old Paths]

I leave you pro tv folks with Leonard Ravenhills indictment.


"You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it."



Bump!

Thanks Bro. Matt.

God's FIRE stirred praying folks in Jerusalem and it can still stir people that are praying.

NO LIMITS ON GOD'S FIRE!

[bdlooney]

The ONLY way that I would take you words as credible, my friend, is if you threw away your internet...it is filled with filth as well. Consistency is the key.Also......An old retired TEXAS UPC minister told me recently...."The reason TV and Hollywood are so evil is because, Satan is the prive of the power of the air...which includes the airwaves....The airwaves it the only place we have been scared enough, that we have been unwilling to meet him on his own turf"

That just made WAAAAYYYYY to much sense from that dear amn to ignore.

It looks to me like proper reading of my post is key. I did not say that tv had filth on it. I said that tv had NOTHING BUT filth on it.

I understand that there are billions of pornographic sites on the internet but there is also AFF. You have the good and the bad. It is possible for me to get to AFF without trudging through the filth to get there. :thumbsup

[LadyRev]

You can fuss, fight, argue, all you want but the facts remain...

Even if churches DO have a nursing home ministry and even if church members DO visit the shutins thats just not good enough to truly meet the need. We need to do it, but its still not enough.

I speak from SEVEN years of experience with a nursing home ministry. I watched these people live bored, lonely lives with little to brighten their days and then they died.

Once a week, every Sunday afternoon, my helpers and I went in and held service for these people. We went room to room and invited them and then assisted them to the dining area where service was held. When the laws changed and forbid us to assist the residents to the dining area, the nursing staff was left with this responsibility. They didn't want this added chore and our attendance dropped considerably.

One other church came in on Sunday mornings. A singing group came in once a month. And then there was beading and bingo and a special movie once in a while. HOW EXCITING! (TIC)

A TV should never substitute for human contact but the fact is, the church and its members can't be there often enough nor long enough to meet the needs.

A radio, CDs, books, magazines, these are all good and helpful but they don't meet the need either. But they do help.

A TV with apostolic programming, on the other hand, would be far more beneficial because it presents REAL PEOPLE! Possibly even people that the shutin knows personally. No, it doesn't substitute for real human contact but it can definitely help with the bored, lonely hours of life in a nursing home.

Theres just nothing like apostolic singing and worship and preaching to lift and minister to one's spirit, to feed one's soul, to encourage one's heart.

While no one will argue that theres nothing like actually "being there" in a service, no one can argue that WATCHING it, even on a recorded DVD, is the next best thing!

How many hours have YOU logged at the local nursing home?

Or is a smelly nursing home dominated by seemingly incoherent people "beneath" your calling?

[HeavenlyOne]

It looks to me like proper reading of my post is key. I did not say that tv had filth on it. I said that tv had NOTHING BUT filth on it.

I understand that there are billions of pornographic sites on the internet but there is also AFF. You have the good and the bad. It is possible for me to get to AFF without trudging through the filth to get there. :thumbsup

I don't have to trudge through filth to get to decent programming either, and I have yet to have anything suddenly pop up on my TV screen that I didn't want my children to see.

How long has it been since you've had a TV?

[Brother Strange]

Matthew,

I think that you know me well enough to know that if I knew where a true Holy Ghost fire of God is blazing, you would find me getting there on the morning train.

The facts are, though God has never changed, people have. In what way has people changed? The power of the media has captured people's imaginations and have shifted the manner in which people think.

At one time, you beat a few tin pans to get people's attention, then stand on a busy street corner and have a crowd to preach to. Or, you could put up a tent, go through the neighborhoods with a bull horn to advertise it and that first night of the tent meeting, you would have a crowd.

This is not true anymore. The electronic media such as games, movies, t.v. and even the blackberry and now the iphone has got people's attentions. If the message that we have cannot compete for their attentions, there will be no fire at all...much less the crowd running after the fire. The attentions of the people must be arrested and refocused upon the Word of God, faith, righteousness and true holiness. This cannot happen cloistered.

However, the Lord once showed me of a time that the true men of God would have the world's attention. There was an awful lot of death involved, but it shure got the world's attention alright. But that time is not here yet, but it is coming.

Bump for StMatthew who quoted Leonard Ravenhill...

[Eliseus]

You can fuss, fight, argue, all you want but the facts remain...

Even if churches DO have a nursing home ministry and even if church members DO visit the shutins thats just not good enough to truly meet the need. We need to do it, but its still not enough.

I speak from SEVEN years of experience with a nursing home ministry. I watched these people live bored, lonely lives with little to brighten their days and then they died.

Once a week, every Sunday afternoon, my helpers and I went in and held service for these people. We went room to room and invited them and then assisted them to the dining area where service was held. When the laws changed and forbid us to assist the residents to the dining area, the nursing staff was left with this responsibility. They didn't want this added chore and our attendance dropped considerably.

One other church came in on Sunday mornings. A singing group came in once a month. And then there was beading and bingo and a special movie once in a while. HOW EXCITING! (TIC)

A TV should never substitute for human contact but the fact is, the church and its members can't be there often enough nor long enough to meet the needs.

A radio, CDs, books, magazines, these are all good and helpful but they don't meet the need either. But they do help.

A TV with apostolic programming, on the other hand, would be far more beneficial because it presents REAL PEOPLE! Possibly even people that the shutin knows personally. No, it doesn't substitute for real human contact but it can definitely help with the bored, lonely hours of life in a nursing home.

Theres just nothing like apostolic singing and worship and preaching to lift and minister to one's spirit, to feed one's soul, to encourage one's heart.

While no one will argue that theres nothing like actually "being there" in a service, no one can argue that WATCHING it, even on a recorded DVD, is the next best thing!

How many hours have YOU logged at the local nursing home?

Or is a smelly nursing home dominated by seemingly incoherent people "beneath" your calling?


This seems to assume that people in nursing homes are needing to watch apostolic church services.

What they really need is to go home to their families.

And if they have none, then the church is commanded to take care of them (at least the widows, anyway...)

And I suspect that involves far more than just once a week visitation for an hour or letting them watch real people to do real things while they just stay at the nursing home....

[Trouvere]

You can fuss, fight, argue, all you want but the facts remain...

Even if churches DO have a nursing home ministry and even if church members DO visit the shutins thats just not good enough to truly meet the need. We need to do it, but its still not enough.

I speak from SEVEN years of experience with a nursing home ministry. I watched these people live bored, lonely lives with little to brighten their days and then they died.

Once a week, every Sunday afternoon, my helpers and I went in and held service for these people. We went room to room and invited them and then assisted them to the dining area where service was held. When the laws changed and forbid us to assist the residents to the dining area, the nursing staff was left with this responsibility. They didn't want this added chore and our attendance dropped considerably.

One other church came in on Sunday mornings. A singing group came in once a month. And then there was beading and bingo and a special movie once in a while. HOW EXCITING! (TIC)

A TV should never substitute for human contact but the fact is, the church and its members can't be there often enough nor long enough to meet the needs.

A radio, CDs, books, magazines, these are all good and helpful but they don't meet the need either. But they do help.

A TV with apostolic programming, on the other hand, would be far more beneficial because it presents REAL PEOPLE! Possibly even people that the shutin knows personally. No, it doesn't substitute for real human contact but it can definitely help with the bored, lonely hours of life in a nursing home.

Theres just nothing like apostolic singing and worship and preaching to lift and minister to one's spirit, to feed one's soul, to encourage one's heart.

While no one will argue that theres nothing like actually "being there" in a service, no one can argue that WATCHING it, even on a recorded DVD, is the next best thing!

How many hours have YOU logged at the local nursing home?

Or is a smelly nursing home dominated by seemingly incoherent people "beneath" your calling?


Whats really sad is that our old people get dumped in nursing homes.We
kept ours home until the final few last days possible when the hospital
would not take them anymore and they were too sick to come home
by then tv or no tv it did not matter.It did allow us to sleep at night though.
Sis.Ruth said her parents were at home.That is altogether different.
Living in Florida btw there are alot of things for people to do here in homes
etc as the climate is good and its a retirement area.There is a real competition
between companies.I worked at one place where Rolls Royces were parked outside and there was a doctor of nutrition who prepared the meals.RITZY.
Not all of them are smell.Some are awesome.There is a group of Apostolic
people in Baton Rouge,La area that own one.

[stmatthew]

I leave you pro tv folks with Leonard Ravenhills indictment.


"You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it."

Matthew,

I think that you know me well enough to know that if I knew where a true Holy Ghost fire of God is blazing, you would find me getting there on the morning train.

The facts are, though God has never changed, people have. In what way has people changed? The power of the media has captured people's imaginations and have shifted the manner in which people think.

At one time, you beat a few tin pans to get people's attention, then stand on a busy street corner and have a crowd to preach to. Or, you could put up a tent, go through the neighborhoods with a bull horn to advertise it and that first night of the tent meeting, you would have a crowd.

This is not true anymore. The electronic media such as games, movies, t.v. and even the blackberry and now the iphone has got people's attentions. If the message that we have cannot compete for their attentions, there will be no fire at all...much less the crowd running after the fire. The attentions of the people must be arrested and refocused upon the Word of God, faith, righteousness and true holiness. This cannot happen cloistered.

However, the Lord once showed me of a time that the true men of God would have the world's attention. There was an awful lot of death involved, but it shure got the world's attention alright. But that time is not here yet, but it is coming.

Bro Strange,

My humble opinion is when the UPCI goes on tv, we will see a greater decline of the already almost extinct anointing and power of God that is currently within its ranks.

When God performs, it will be noticed abroad. The problem is, as you well know, no one seems to be dispaying God to the world anymore. We display programs. We go out and give water, and have hotdog or pizza parties. We do everything but display the risen savior Jesus Christ to them. Why would they want what we have, when for the most part all we got is what the Baptist God with a little more added jive and rules.

I am not meaning to be so critical, but I have become weary of what I can only call garbage. Where are the men that stay on their faces in prayer until the heavens are rent? where are the men that fast until? where are the men that refuse to enter the sacred desk until they have a fresh word straight from God? where are the signs and wonders? Plenty of wonders, cause I am often "wondering" just how blind American Church can be not to see her bankruptcy.

[LadyRev]

This seems to assume that people in nursing homes are needing to watch apostolic church services.

What they really need is to go home to their families.

And if they have none, then the church is commanded to take care of them (at least the widows, anyway...)

And I suspect that involves far more than just once a week visitation for an hour or letting them watch real people to do real things while they just stay at the nursing home....


GUESS WHAT? I agree with you for the most part! But in general, it doesn't, isn't and probably WON'T happen.

There are also legitimate cases where nursing home care is a must and being in the home of family, natural or church family, is not an option.

[Theresa]

seems to me like we are trying to get TV to fix a problem we should have a handle on ourselves.

The bible says for us to take care of the widows and such.....

so now we argue to get on TV to reach them when we could just go do it ourselves???

Sure, we've let them down - but how is being on TV going to fix lazy and stupid?

interesting argument, but TV isnt some magic answer to reaching the lost if the majority of the "saved" folks dont take care of their OWN, much less the LOST in their city

[LadyRev]

seems to me like we are trying to get TV to fix a problem we should have a handle on ourselves.

The bible says for us to take care of the widows and such.....

so now we argue to get on TV to reach them when we could just go do it ourselves???

Sure, we've let them down - but how is being on TV going to fix lazy and stupid?

interesting argument, but TV isnt some magic answer to reaching the lost if the majority of the "saved" folks dont take care of their OWN, much less the LOST in their city

While I never said TV would "fix" the problem...I already pointed out that going ourselves won't fix the problem either. Common sense lets us to know that we simply can't be there often enough and/or long enough to meet the need.

Apostolic programming on TV would be a help, a big help in my opinion, but not a fix. An improvement but not a total solution of itself.

[Sandra]

We need to talk to the major advertisers and get them to start knocking doors instead of spending it on superbowl commercials...

:killinme:killinme:killinme:killinme:killinme

[Theresa]

While I never said TV would "fix" the problem...I already pointed out that going ourselves won't fix the problem either. Common sense lets us to know that we simply can't be there often enough and/or long enough to meet the need.

Apostolic programming on TV would be a help, a big help in my opinion, but not a fix. An improvement but not a total solution of itself.

I agree with what you've said....

but all the arguments I've heard, like this one in this thread, are pointless, IMO. If you are gonna argue for something, come out with your best argument, you know?

Think about it, how many UPC churchs have "shut ins"? How many elderly folks does any ONE church have? Not too many I'd suspect that someone cant visit them and bring church to them....in fact, I bet the ratio of ministers/saints to shut ins, is so large that you could overwhelm an elderely person by visiting them so much.

The fact is, we DONT, we havent and to say that we need TV to fix that is hogwash, IMO.

not saying there isnt an argument FOR tv - but this one, IMO, isnt it

[stmatthew]

I agree with what you've said....

but all the arguments I've heard, like this one in this thread, are pointless, IMO. If you are gonna argue for something, come out with your best argument, you know?

Think about it, how many UPC churchs have "shut ins"? How many elderly folks does any ONE church have? Not too many I'd suspect that someone cant visit them and bring church to them....in fact, I bet the ratio of ministers/saints to shut ins, is so large that you could overwhelm an elderely person by visiting them so much.

The fact is, we DONT, we havent and to say that we need TV to fix that is hogwash, IMO.

not saying there isnt an argument FOR tv - but this one, IMO, isnt it

Shut-ins are an opportunity to get your saints off the pew, and out in the field DOING.

[IAintMovin]

I have no clue what you are asking?????????????????????????

And neither does he............:slaphappy

[Theresa]

Shut-ins are an opportunity to get your saints off the pew, and out in the field DOING.

exactly...and if a church cant take care of it's own, how in the world can it help the unchurched who might look them up as a result of tv programming?

[HeavenlyOne]

This seems to assume that people in nursing homes are needing to watch apostolic church services.

What they really need is to go home to their families.

And if they have none, then the church is commanded to take care of them (at least the widows, anyway...)

And I suspect that involves far more than just once a week visitation for an hour or letting them watch real people to do real things while they just stay at the nursing home....

It's obvious that you know nothing about nursing homes or why people are there. LOL!

So, how many widows are you currently supporting?

[HeavenlyOne]

Whats really sad is that our old people get dumped in nursing homes.We
kept ours home until the final few last days possible when the hospital
would not take them anymore and they were too sick to come home
by then tv or no tv it did not matter.It did allow us to sleep at night though.
Sis.Ruth said her parents were at home.That is altogether different.
Living in Florida btw there are alot of things for people to do here in homes
etc as the climate is good and its a retirement area.There is a real competition
between companies.I worked at one place where Rolls Royces were parked outside and there was a doctor of nutrition who prepared the meals.RITZY.
Not all of them are smell.Some are awesome.There is a group of Apostolic
people in Baton Rouge,La area that own one.

Blame it on Medicare. When they made their cuts in regard to home health care about ten years ago, the nursing homes got richer. It left people with no choice if they didn't have the money to pay for it out of pocket.

[HeavenlyOne]

While I never said TV would "fix" the problem...I already pointed out that going ourselves won't fix the problem either. Common sense lets us to know that we simply can't be there often enough and/or long enough to meet the need.

Apostolic programming on TV would be a help, a big help in my opinion, but not a fix. An improvement but not a total solution of itself.

My in-laws are homebound and would love to watch Apostolic programming. The preacher just isn't able to come by very often. So they watch Sky Angel instead and listen to the trinitarians.

[HeavenlyOne]

I agree with what you've said....

but all the arguments I've heard, like this one in this thread, are pointless, IMO. If you are gonna argue for something, come out with your best argument, you know?

Think about it, how many UPC churchs have "shut ins"? How many elderly folks does any ONE church have? Not too many I'd suspect that someone cant visit them and bring church to them....in fact, I bet the ratio of ministers/saints to shut ins, is so large that you could overwhelm an elderely person by visiting them so much.

The fact is, we DONT, we havent and to say that we need TV to fix that is hogwash, IMO.

not saying there isnt an argument FOR tv - but this one, IMO, isnt it


Seems that you are assuming that all people in the church will go visit the shut-ins. Fact is, not many go, and fewer go on a regular basis. And shut-ins don't attend church because they are homebound. Taking them a tape of service is good if your church does that, but if not, isn't TV programming nice?

That isn't making it a replacement for visitors, but a nice addition to what they are already getting.

[H2H]

Seems that you are assuming that all people in the church will go visit the shut-ins. Fact is, not many go, and fewer go on a regular basis. And shut-ins don't attend church because they are homebound. Taking them a tape of service is good if your church does that, but if not, isn't TV programming nice?

That isn't making it a replacement for visitors, but a nice addition to what they are already getting.


Is this not a measure of our spirituality?

Pure religion, and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction... James 1:27

[HeavenlyOne]

There are a lot of problems that some can't handle in regard to visiting shut-ins, and I wonder how many of us are honest enough to admit that we don't visit them on a regular basis.

I don't.

I don't because I have a family and a job and that is my primary responsibility. I do keep tabs on one elderly woman about every other week and make sure her needs are met....and more often in the winter months, but I can't do it for everyone.

Some of the problems are:

1. The sick and elderly can be difficult to manage if one doesn't have the skill in dealing with those types of people. Would you consistently visit someone who does nothing but complain and cry about their circumstance and beg you to pray when your prayers aren't working because God has decided they are living their last days?

2. Some people don't know what to say to the sick and elderly, so it's dreadful to contemplate a visit, even with someone they've known for a long time.

3. Some sick and elderly are quite demanding and want all kinds of things done, and if you are around, they will put you to work. Sure, this isn't a big deal, right? How about when it happens everytime you visit that you are doing the same piddly stuff over and over and over?

4. Can you handle complaints? Some elderly are forgetful and think nobody visits them, and when you are around, that's all they want to talk about.

5. Speaking of forgetfulness, some make no sense at all and cannot understand what you are talking about. Think you can visit someone like that on a consistent basis and look forward to doing it?

If some of you were honest, you would understand why many people don't visit shut-ins, especially on a consistent basis. I deal with these people everyday, so I totally understand, and I don't blame the decisions that are made.

[HeavenlyOne]

Is this not a measure of our spirituality?

Pure religion, and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction... James 1:27

Read my post above.

[H2H]

HO, If these are family, it matters little how uncomfortable it makes us. It is our duty as I see it. I am refering to those who will abandon their own mother in a nursing home for months or even years at a time.


But the "ministering" part goes beyond our own family. I agree with your post, but I think these issues should be overcome, at least to a degree.

[Trouvere]

Blame it on Medicare. When they made their cuts in regard to home health care about ten years ago, the nursing homes got richer. It left people with no choice if they didn't have the money to pay for it out of pocket.

Ten years ago is exactly how old my youngest daughter is.I quit to be a SAHM.
I was a home health nurse.The medicare cuts killed the company I worked for along with a few other things.Honestly the nursing homes where we live are
nice.We have church people who work them as a full time ministry.They are there
three to four times a week visiting,singing and preaching.Florida because its a retirement state has alot of red tape concerning nursing homes.It might be
a consideration for those who live elsewhere to consider moving here for
retirement.

[HeavenlyOne]

HO, If these are family, it matters little how uncomfortable it makes us. It is our duty as I see it. I am refering to those who will abandon their own mother in a nursing home for months or even years at a time.


But the "ministering" part goes beyond our own family. I agree with your post, but I think these issues should be overcome, at least to a degree.

I agree with you, but the reality is, those issues aren't overcome. I deal with it on a daily basis even with secular folks and it's difficult for anyone to do consistently.

And there are some people in the nursing home that I don't blame the family for not coming often for a visit. I'm not sure I would visit my mother often if all she did was yell and cuss and tell me not to steal her things.......and she has no idea who I even am.

I have also seen other horrors as well. Those sweet little old ladies that are pillars of the church sometimes turn into horrible, beastly creatures when the mind goes.

I once took care of a UPC pastor who was bedridden after a stroke. He would hit his wife and swear at her. She would cry, even though she understood that it wasn't her husband in that bed any longer.

For most people, it's difficult seeing someone so sick that once took care of them when they were young. Some have no idea how to deal with it either. Sure, it's easy to tell them to get over it, but it's easier said than done.

[HeavenlyOne]

Ten years ago is exactly how old my youngest daughter is.I quit to be a SAHM.
I was a home health nurse.The medicare cuts killed the company I worked for along with a few other things.Honestly the nursing homes where we live are
nice.We have church people who work them as a full time ministry.They are there
three to four times a week visiting,singing and preaching.Florida because its a retirement state has alot of red tape concerning nursing homes.It might be
a consideration for those who live elsewhere to consider moving here for
retirement.


I, too, was forced into another job because Medicare cuts cost me my job and a home health aide. It's the worst thing the government has done to old folks thus far.

[stmatthew]

I leave you pro tv folks with Leonard Ravenhills indictment.


"You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it."

Matthew,

I think that you know me well enough to know that if I knew where a true Holy Ghost fire of God is blazing, you would find me getting there on the morning train.

The facts are, though God has never changed, people have. In what way has people changed? The power of the media has captured people's imaginations and have shifted the manner in which people think.

At one time, you beat a few tin pans to get people's attention, then stand on a busy street corner and have a crowd to preach to. Or, you could put up a tent, go through the neighborhoods with a bull horn to advertise it and that first night of the tent meeting, you would have a crowd.

This is not true anymore. The electronic media such as games, movies, t.v. and even the blackberry and now the iphone has got people's attentions. If the message that we have cannot compete for their attentions, there will be no fire at all...much less the crowd running after the fire. The attentions of the people must be arrested and refocused upon the Word of God, faith, righteousness and true holiness. This cannot happen cloistered.

However, the Lord once showed me of a time that the true men of God would have the world's attention. There was an awful lot of death involved, but it shure got the world's attention alright. But that time is not here yet, but it is coming.

Bro Strange,

My humble opinion is when the UPCI goes on tv, we will see a greater decline of the already almost extinct anointing and power of God that is currently within its ranks.

When God performs, it will be noticed abroad. The problem is, as you well know, no one seems to be dispaying God to the world anymore. We display programs. We go out and give water, and have hotdog or pizza parties. We do everything but display the risen savior Jesus Christ to them. Why would they want what we have, when for the most part all we got is what the Baptist God with a little more added jive and rules.

I am not meaning to be so critical, but I have become weary of what I can only call garbage. Where are the men that stay on their faces in prayer until the heavens are rent? where are the men that fast until? where are the men that refuse to enter the sacred desk until they have a fresh word straight from God? where are the signs and wonders? Plenty of wonders, cause I am often "wondering" just how blind American Church can be not to see her bankruptcy.

Bump for Bro Strange :)