New Church Order

[Pastor Keith]

I asked this on another thread, didn't get a response, most likely lost in the posts.

Let me say that I have tremendous respect for Kenneth Phillips, I received the Acts 2:38 in his church, he was my pastor for most of my childhood.

He is a man of God with very few contemporaries.

I don't know Hutchins, I do know Suber and have talked with him in the past, but I wouldn't consider us to be close friends.

But my sense on the NCO is that is a primarily a promotional vehicle for their ministries.

I get stuff from Hutchins promoting his teaching, I get things about Suber's prophetic video casts, and some conference things from the Promiseland.

I would love to get involved with them if I felt that whole would be greater than the three parts.

Does anyone else feel this way or sense this, or I am losing my gift of suspicion?

[revrandy]

Got this today..

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r306/rgraham28/ChampStore.jpg

20% Off it said..

here's a link to their site...

http://www.champ.org/champstore/scripts/default.asp

[philjones]

I asked this on another thread, didn't get a response, most likely lost in the posts.

Let me say that I have tremendous respect for Kenneth Phillips, I received the Acts 2:38 in his church, he was my pastor for most of my childhood.

He is a man of God with very few contemporaries.

I don't know Hutchins, I do know Suber and have talked with him in the past, but I wouldn't consider us to be close friends.

But my sense on the NCO is that is a primarily a promotional vehicle for their ministries.

I get stuff from Hutchins promoting his teaching, I get things about Suber's prophetic video casts, and some conference things from the Promiseland.

I would love to get involved with them if I felt that whole would be greater than the three parts.

Does anyone else feel this way or sense this, or I am losing my gift of suspicion?

Keith,

they are actually promoting a concept and desiring to stir the body of Christ to aggressively and wisely pursue the lost at any cost. They have held several meetings for ministers that, based on comments i have seen, were very very impacting! I think they desire for this to become a loose fellowship that is built around the W&S doctrine with a "come as you are" social position... meaning they are not pushing any agenda other than the Kingdom of God and you can be con, mod or lib and pursue their passion.

I do understand why you feel the way you do. I get all the marketing stuff, but that is the way Hutchins runs Church of Champion. He was a very successful business man (entrepreneurial in action and attitude) and he built his church with business style organization and marketing!

[revrandy]

Maybe it's a little of damned if they do...damned if they don't...

They just decided and did it...

[SDG]

Keith,

they are actually promoting a concept and desiring to stir the body of Christ to aggressively and wisely pursue the lost at any cost. They have held several meetings for ministers that, based on comments i have seen, were very very impacting! I think they desire for this to become a loose fellowship that is built around the W&S doctrine with a "come as you are" social position... meaning they are not pushing any agenda other than the Kingdom of God and you can be con, mod or lib and pursue their passion.

I do understand why you feel the way you do. I get all the marketing stuff, but that is the way Hutchins runs Church of Champion. He was a very successful business man (entrepreneurial in action and attitude) and he built his church with business style organization and marketing!

Well said ... PJ.

[Praxeas]

I asked this on another thread, didn't get a response, most likely lost in the posts.

Let me say that I have tremendous respect for Kenneth Phillips, I received the Acts 2:38 in his church, he was my pastor for most of my childhood.

He is a man of God with very few contemporaries.

I don't know Hutchins, I do know Suber and have talked with him in the past, but I wouldn't consider us to be close friends.

But my sense on the NCO is that is a primarily a promotional vehicle for their ministries.

I get stuff from Hutchins promoting his teaching, I get things about Suber's prophetic video casts, and some conference things from the Promiseland.

I would love to get involved with them if I felt that whole would be greater than the three parts.

Does anyone else feel this way or sense this, or I am losing my gift of suspicion?
I watched one of Subers webcasts and I enjoyed what was said, but they had promotion on there too and honestly I just could not help feeling I was watching something on TBN.

[Sarah]

I asked this on another thread, didn't get a response, most likely lost in the posts.

Let me say that I have tremendous respect for Kenneth Phillips, I received the Acts 2:38 in his church, he was my pastor for most of my childhood.

He is a man of God with very few contemporaries.

I don't know Hutchins, I do know Suber and have talked with him in the past, but I wouldn't consider us to be close friends.

But my sense on the NCO is that is a primarily a promotional vehicle for their ministries.

I get stuff from Hutchins promoting his teaching, I get things about Suber's prophetic video casts, and some conference things from the Promiseland.

I would love to get involved with them if I felt that whole would be greater than the three parts.

Does anyone else feel this way or sense this, or I am losing my gift of suspicion?



I don't know about NCO being a ministries vehicle, Bro Keith. But I have never liked the name. I'm not so sure I would want to be associated with a "New Church Order". The Old Church Order (biblical) is fine with me.

It sounds very suspicious.......or fleshly to me.

[SDG]

I watched one of Subers webcasts and I enjoyed what was said, but they had promotion on there too and honestly I just could not help feeling I was watching something on TBN.

When dealing w/ the media and even non-for profits ... you will get some promotions ... it's the nature of the beast ... bills have to be paid ...

I've seen this at Sheaves for Christ rallies and PBS ... as long as it's done in good taste and not overbearing

[Theresa]

so, are y'all for it or against it?

[revrandy]

I agree with Dan here...

[Nahum]

All I know is their membership seems to be expanding rapidly.

[SDG]

I don't know about NCO being a ministries vehicle, Bro Keith. But I have never liked the name. I'm not so sure I would want to be associated with a "New Church Order". The Old Church Order (biblical) is fine with me.

It sounds very suspicious.......or fleshly to me.

I think naming it the Old Church Order would be just as counterproductive ... it would mean to many that the Church is still doing things business as usual and steeped in manly tradition ...

Their site affirms that this is a return to the book of Acts ....

I've been to their Christmas banquet ... and it was about the Kingdom ... and about the lost ... not about the 3 some would like to bash.

[Elizabeth]

I don't know about NCO being a ministries vehicle, Bro Keith. But I have never liked the name. I'm not so sure I would want to be associated with a "New Church Order". The Old Church Order (biblical) is fine with me.

It sounds very suspicious.......or fleshly to me.

I dont care for the name either- sounds like new world order,

[Jack Shephard]

I dont care for the name either- sounds like new world order,

I think that was part of the draw to that name. It is the counter opposite of NWO it is NCO. Forever the World fights the Church and the Church fights the World.

I think the name is very progressive. I like it! I the attitude of a thing is more important than a name of a thing.

[Praxeas]

When dealing w/ the media and even non-for profits ... you will get some promotions ... it's the nature of the beast ... bills have to be paid ...

I've seen this at Sheaves for Christ rallies and PBS ... as long as it's done in good taste and not overbearing
Yes I know...and I hate sounding like BS here but it was HOW they were promoting/raising funds...speaking of sowing a seed kind of stuff etc etc.

[revrandy]

Here is a Open Letter on the New Church Order Forum from a Man who Attends Bro. Hutchin's Church.. gave me a little insight on Bro. Hutchins..

http://www.newchurchorder.com/content/view/55/44/

[SDG]

Got this today..

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r306/rgraham28/ChampStore.jpg

20% Off it said..

here's a link to their site...

http://www.champ.org/champstore/scripts/default.asp

I think we are confusing promos coming from the Church of Champions to be NCO ... I do think theY should've given us at the point of joining online the option to not accept promotional ads from "third parties"...

This can be viewed as spam ... but I think you have the option to unsubcribe from the COC mailing list.

[Elizabeth]

I think that was part of the draw to that name. It is the counter opposite of NWO it is NCO. Forever the World fights the Church and the Church fights the World.

I think the name is very progressive. I like it! I the attitude of a thing is more important than a name of a thing.

Very true, perhaps its just a mind block thing with me...or a woman thang!

I like names to sound pretty :D

[revrandy]

One thing I do know they have stepped up to the plate and started something... might be worth looking into.. :hmmm

[SDG]

Yes I know...and I hate sounding like BS here but it was HOW they were promoting/raising funds...speaking of sowing a seed kind of stuff etc etc.

Just a thought, Praxeas ... Doesn't the name "Sheaves for Christ" already connote one is planting seeds to harvest the sheaves ...

I think we need some perspective here ...

It may look and sound like TBN because the pitch is being transmitted via video ...

but the idea of planting seeds into... building funds ... ministries, etc is as old as .... DIRT

[Praxeas]

Just a thought, Praxeas ... Doesn't the name "Sheaves for Christ" already connote one is planting seeds to harvest the sheaves ...

I think we need some perspective here ...

It may look and sound like TBN because the pitch is being transmitted via video ...

but the idea of planting seeds ... building funds ... ministries is as old as .... DIRT
So you are saying the fund raising techniques for SFC is like the word of faith "sow a seed" stuff that goes on TBN?

[SDG]

So you are saying the fund raising techniques for SFC is like the word of faith "sow a seed" stuff that goes on TBN?

Let's not confuse the "name it, claim it" doctrine with the time-honored biblical teaching of the Law of the Harvest ...

Can someone fix the name of this thread from Oder to Order??

[SDG]

Here is a Open Letter on the New Church Order Forum from a Man who Attends Bro. Hutchin's Church.. gave me a little insight on Bro. Hutchins..

http://www.newchurchorder.com/content/view/55/44/

Both Bro. Griffin, a lawyer, and Bro. Hutchins are CLASS A people ... who love people.

[pope john paul]

one of the mistakes the new charismatic order is making is the same as i did during my tenure as the vicar of christ during my reign in the original apostolic church where Peter was the 1st pope.

I failed to understand the decimation it would bring on the ranks of the holy catholic church by allowing the priests to get away with molestations.

I hear from there own words there goal is the restoration of fallen ministers.

while this is a noble idea I allowed those priests to repent and move on with there lives and now in the diocese of california we just settled over a billion dollars in abuse cases so far.

while it is noble to want to restore ministers who have fallen I would not trust my nieces and nephews under there fallen but albeit repented leadership.

many of the priests we had that repented are now costing us billions.

[Sarah]

I think naming it the Old Church Order would be just as counterproductive ... it would mean to many that the Church is still doing things business as usual and steeped in manly tradition ...

Their site affirms that this is a return to the book of Acts ....

I've been to their Christmas banquet ... and it was about the Kingdom ... and about the lost ... not about the 3 some would like to bash.



Daniel, true Apostolics never LEFT the book of Acts........

No manmade thing is perfect. And I'm sure as this 'organization' grows, the founders will find things changing.

It really amazes me that they would call it the NEW Church Order. It seems as though they want to distance themselves from the original church. If people keep 'progressing', they are going to 'progress' themselves completely away from the Church.

[SDG]

one of the mistakes the new charismatic order is making is the same as i did during my tenure as the vicar of christ during my reign in the original apostolic church where Peter was the 1st pope.

I failed to understand the decimation it would bring on the ranks of the holy catholic church by allowing the priests to get away with molestations.

I hear from there own words there goal is the restoration of fallen ministers.

while this is a noble idea I allowed those priests to repent and move on with there lives and now in the diocese of california we just settled over a billion dollars in abuse cases so far.

while it is noble to want to restore ministers who have fallen I would not trust my nieces and nephews under there fallen but albeit repented leadership.

many of the priests we had that repented are now costing us billions.

Hmm ... lets' look at the parallel ...

The goal is to restore fallen ministers .. like the RC.???

Does the RC restore fallen ministers or do they cover for those still in it?

I know of a few District boards who have covered the tails of a few ...

JP ... you're agenda filled post is flawed and slaps you right back.

[SDG]

Daniel, true Apostolics never LEFT the book of Acts........

No manmade thing is perfect. And I'm sure as this 'organization' grows, the founders will find things changing.

It really amazes me that they would call it the NEW Church Order. It seems as though they want to distance themselves from the original church. If people keep 'progressing', they are going to 'progress' themselves completely away from the Church.

All man-made institutions are flawed ...

but this shtick that they are asking for a progressive church that is distancing itself from the original church is fabricated and propaganda.

The NCO calls for post denominationalism and a return the the church governance model of the 1st century church ...

If someone wants to stick with the 20th century corporate style "original" church ... be my guest ....

[Praxeas]

Let's not confuse the "name it, claim it" doctrine with the time-honored biblical teaching of the Law of the Harvest ...

Can someone fix the name of this thread from Oder to Order??
That was my point, the night I watched it SOUNDED like a TBN fund raiser of so a financial seed and reap a personal harvest...what ever happened to giving for the sake of giving? in stead of using the commerical promising something in return?

[Ronzo]

Can someone fix the name of this thread from Oder to Order??
I tawt sum'n smelt kinda funny....

[SDG]

That was my point, the night I watched it SOUNDED like a TBN fund raiser of so a financial seed and reap a personal harvest...what ever happened to giving for the sake of giving? in stead of using the commerical promising something in return?

That's all fine and dandy, Praxeas ... it's utopian to say that we give just to give ...
and yes ... some overdue the expectation aspect of giving .... tantalizing folks w/ new cars and homes ....

but what is the difference between that and the country preacher who preaches that giving tithes will open the windows of heaven in their homes, jobs, etc.

God's Word still stands ... what we reap is what we sowed ...

Reminding people, whether from a dusty pulpit or on a overly ornate stage set via tv, about the Law of Harvest is what it is ....

[Praxeas]

That's all fine and dandy, Praxeas ... it's utopian that we give just to give ...
and yes ... some overdue the expectation aspect of giving .... tantalizing folks w/ new cars and homes ....

but what is the difference between that and the country preacher who preaches that giving tithes will open the windows of heaven in their homes, jobs, etc.

God's Word still stands ... what we reap is what we sow ...

Reminding people whether from a dusty pulpit or on a overly ornate stage set via tv about the Law of Harvest is what it is ....
all I am saying is it sounded like a TBN style pitch of the "sow a seed".

Seed sowing in the bible was never about giving money, reaping personal financial benefits. It was about sowing the word in the hearts of someone and God gaining more converts. It bothers me the more and more I hear this seed/windfall analogy being used in Oneness circles, no matter who uses it

[SDG]

I tawt sum'n smelt kinda funny....

Admin please correct the title.

[Praxeas]

Stop raising a stink over it Dan

[SDG]

all I am saying is it sounded like a TBN style pitch of the "sow a seed".

Seed sowing in the bible was never about giving money, reaping personal financial benefits. It was about sowing the word in the hearts of someone and God gaining more converts. It bothers me the more and more I hear this seed/windfall analogy being used in Oneness circles, no matter who uses it

A seed can be anything ... sorry ..

it can be the Word, time, money, sin, etc ...

We reap what we sow.

[CC1]

I asked this on another thread, didn't get a response, most likely lost in the posts.

Let me say that I have tremendous respect for Kenneth Phillips, I received the Acts 2:38 in his church, he was my pastor for most of my childhood.

He is a man of God with very few contemporaries.

I don't know Hutchins, I do know Suber and have talked with him in the past, but I wouldn't consider us to be close friends.

But my sense on the NCO is that is a primarily a promotional vehicle for their ministries.

I get stuff from Hutchins promoting his teaching, I get things about Suber's prophetic video casts, and some conference things from the Promiseland.

I would love to get involved with them if I felt that whole would be greater than the three parts.

Does anyone else feel this way or sense this, or I am losing my gift of suspicion?


I can tell you that the "New Church Order" was something KP coined when I was still living in Austin before I moved to Nashville in 1999.

It came to him in prayer and in thought about what needs to happen for end time revival to happen. As you know he has long thought that many of the man imposed obstacles to revival are going to have to fall.

I don't think it is a promotional tool at all. The end result may be that but I think it is a heartfelt belief in the concept that many things will have to change for God's great commission to be fulfilled.

I believe he is addressing both old mainline denominational churches and old time Pentecost when he talks about there needing to be a new church order.

[SDG]

all I am saying is it sounded like a TBN style pitch of the "sow a seed".

Seed sowing in the bible was never about giving money, reaping personal financial benefits. It was about sowing the word in the hearts of someone and God gaining more converts. It bothers me the more and more I hear this seed/windfall analogy being used in Oneness circles, no matter who uses it

Galatians 6:7-8 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal life

The writer tells us that WHATEVER A MAN SOWS HE WILL REAP ...

He also does not make reference to Word only here but speaks of sowing anything into the Spirit realm ...

[philjones]

one of the mistakes the new charismatic order is making is the same as i did during my tenure as the vicar of christ during my reign in the original apostolic church where Peter was the 1st pope.

I failed to understand the decimation it would bring on the ranks of the holy catholic church by allowing the priests to get away with molestations.

I hear from there own words there goal is the restoration of fallen ministers.

while this is a noble idea I allowed those priests to repent and move on with there lives and now in the diocese of california we just settled over a billion dollars in abuse cases so far.

while it is noble to want to restore ministers who have fallen I would not trust my nieces and nephews under there fallen but albeit repented leadership.

many of the priests we had that repented are now costing us billions.

Stupid post of the day! Of course, I forget that the Pope is, like Christ, infallible!:killinme :)

I sincerely appreciate your faith in the blood of Jesus and the power of repentance and heavenly forgiveness oh prefect of perfection! If I thought enough of your post, I would look for the bowing smiley but I don't think that much of your post!:slaphappy

[philjones]

Dan, do you agree with my description of NCO in the second post of this thread?

[Praxeas]

A seed can be anything ... sorry ..

it can be the Word, time, money, sin, etc ...

We reap what we sow.
Can you show me scriptures that says it can be anything? Anyways, this is a TBN like thing that I never used to hear in OP churches until recently. It just sounded like they were taking a page from them to raise funds

[SDG]

Dan, do you agree with my description of NCO in the second post of this thread?

Wholeheartedly.

[Praxeas]

Galatians 6:7-8 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal life

The writer tells us that WHATEVER A MAN SOWS HE WILL REAP ...

He also does not make reference to Word only here but speaks of sowing anything into the Spirit realm ...
True, but then he qualifies it by referring to either corruption or Spiritual things...that is a far cry from sowing money and reaping MORE money.

It 's talking about the difference in eternal life and eternal destruction...

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.
Gal 6:6 One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Gal 6:9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

[philjones]

Can you show me scriptures that says it can be anything? Anyways, this is a TBN like thing that I never used to hear in OP churches until recently. It just sounded like they were taking a page from them to raise funds

Prax,

I think it is terminology you are focusing on. All my life I have heard teaching and preaching on the law of the harvest and the laws of sowing and reaping.. both to the good and to the bad. The law is universal and as old as the NT teachings of Jesus!

[SDG]

Can you show me scriptures that says it can be anything? Anyways, this is a TBN like thing that I never used to hear in OP churches until recently. It just sounded like they were taking a page from them to raise funds

See post 36 ... let me stress once again it can be overdone ...

but reminding people about the law of the harvest is nothing new Praxeas or exclusive to TBN ...

every time a missionary comes looking for PIMs .. or a church starts a building fund ... people have been reminded of this biblical truth.

[SDG]

Giving will result in what Praxeas ????

[SDG]

Investing will result in what Praxeas?

[SDG]

Disobedience will result in what Praxeas?

[Praxeas]

Prax,

I think it is terminology you are focusing on. All my life I have heard teaching and preaching on the law of the harvest and the laws of sowing and reaping.. both to the good and to the bad. The law is universal and as old as the NT teachings of Jesus!
Yes that is why I said it SOUNDED...thats my point. I am simply expressing an opinion of how it sounded. The terminology seemed harrowed from the TBN style way of asking for funds

[Praxeas]

True, but then he qualifies it by referring to either corruption or Spiritual things...that is a far cry from sowing money and reaping MORE money.

It 's talking about the difference in eternal life and eternal destruction...

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.
Gal 6:6 One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Gal 6:9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.
Bump for DA

[philjones]

Yes that is why I said it SOUNDED...thats my point. I am simply expressing an opinion of how it sounded. The terminology seemed harrowed from the TBN style way of asking for funds

Brother Prax,

If you want to see unique offerings and nothing borrowed from anyone, you need to come to the Louisiana campmeetings... it is amazing some of the things I have seen. TBN has never been so creative. Even General Conference can't keep up with LA.:slaphappy:slaphappy

[Ronzo]

Prax,

I think it is terminology you are focusing on. All my life I have heard teaching and preaching on the law of the harvest and the laws of sowing and reaping.. both to the good and to the bad. The law is universal and as old as the NT teachings of Jesus!


Hey Prax...


Gal 6:7 NASB Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.


What does one sow? A SEED!


lol

Sheesh...

You know better...

[SDG]

True, but then he qualifies it by referring to either corruption or Spiritual things...that is a far cry from sowing money and reaping MORE money.

It 's talking about the difference in eternal life and eternal destruction...

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.
Gal 6:6 One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Gal 6:9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Now this is a far cry from your first assertion that the seed only pertained to the Word ..,

the writer is telling us that when we do good in the Kingdom... we will reap eternal consequences ....

but never discounts that the law of the harvest applies TO WHATEVER WE SOW .....

If you give to God and his Kingdom there is a harvest ....

[SDG]

Hey Prax...


Gal 6:7 NASB Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.


What does one sow? A SEED!


lol

Sheesh...

You know better...

Too many books and articles about Muslims ....

[RevDWW]

When dealing w/ the media and even non-for profits ... you will get some promotions ... it's the nature of the beast ... bills have to be paid ...

I've seen this at Sheaves for Christ rallies and PBS ... as long as it's done in good taste and not overbearing

I agree with Dan here...

I agree with my brothers. As long as it's done in good taste and not overbearing and not seeming to sell the gifts of God................

[SDG]

I agree with my brothers. As long as it's done in good taste and not overbearing and not seeming to sell the gifts of God................

Amen.

[Ronzo]

I agree with Dan here...
You're toast...

;)

[RevDWW]

You're toast...

;)

:killinme

[RevDWW]

I agree with my brothers. As long as it's done in good taste and not overbearing and not seeming to sell the gifts of God................

Amen.

I went to see T.D.Jakes preach at the La. Campgrounds a year or so ago. The prelims were handled by T.T. and I left before T.D. even got to the pulpit because it seemed to me that the things of God were being merchandised. One man stated that he had been fasting and a scripture came to mind.....it was about God's blessings...and if you will put the amount...chapter was equal to dollars and verse was equal to cents.....you get a great blessing in return........

Is it just me or does something about that seems odd?

[Praxeas]

Now this is a far cry from your first assertion that the seed only pertained to the Word ..,

the writer is telling us that when we do good in the Kingdom... we will reap eternal consequences ....

but never discounts that the law of the harvest applies TO WHATEVER WE SOW .....

If you give to God and his Kingdom there is a harvest ....
Im willing to admit I am wrong about that, however it seems you are not willing to admit your error. This verse does not say what ever we sow God will bless us.

It says whatever we so TO THE FLESH we will reap corruption and whatever we reap to the Spirit we will reap eternal life. The context is set by verse 1
Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Text out of context is pretext. So there is no way this verse can be used to justify sowing anything like money to reap more money from God.

Many TV preachers have twisted verses exactly like this to use in any way they choose. They also twist verses where it says "whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bounded in heaven" in a similiar manner. The context does not support such scripture twisting

[Praxeas]

Hey Prax...


Gal 6:7 NASB Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.


What does one sow? A SEED!


lol

Sheesh...

You know better...
Another person that has no clue what context means. Sad. It's no wonder how there are so many false doctrines flying around when you have people like this.

Again the context is NOT about sowing money to reap a windfall from God. It's about sowing to the flesh and reaping corruption and sowing to the spirit and reaping ETERNAL LIFE. It's amazing how many people will misuse scriptures like this to support their false doctrines.

Seriously YOU should know better. This verse in no way supports the false word faith notion of sow a financial seed and receive a financial windfall.

[Ronzo]

Is it just me or does something about that seems odd?
Not just you bro

[Ronzo]

Another person that has no clue what context means. Sad. It's no wonder how there are so many false doctrines flying around when you have people like this.

Again the context is NOT about sowing money to reap a windfall from God. It's about sowing to the flesh and reaping corruption and sowing to the spirit and reaping ETERNAL LIFE. It's amazing how many people will misuse scriptures like this to support their false doctrines.

Seriously YOU should know better. This verse in no way supports the false word faith notion of sow a financial seed and receive a financial windfall.
Duh... I don't support the bonehead word faith notion either. I didn't say 'if you sow a seed you'll be blessed of God.'

I didn't say ANYTHING actually, other than "what does someone sow? A seed"

I absolutely LOVE IT when you misrepresent whatever I say.

It's cool. God can forgive you. I might too... someday.



lol

[Praxeas]

I went to see T.D.Jakes preach at the La. Campgrounds a year or so ago. The prelims were handled by T.T. and I left before T.D. even got to the pulpit because it seemed to me that the things of God were being merchandised. One man stated that he had been fasting and a scripture came to mind.....it was about God's blessings...and if you will put the amount...chapter was equal to dollars and verse was equal to cents.....you get a great blessing in return........

Is it just me or does something about that seems odd?
YES! That is what I mean. What I was hearing was beginning to sound too much like them. However they had NOT gotten that far. Im not saying they are doing that, Im just talking about how it sounded. BS noted a similiar instance at the La campmeeting and I asked him some specific questions on it because I want to make sure there is no mistaking things here. It concerns me that what is happening is just marketing and not really and truely the word of God and the Spirit of God happening.

[Praxeas]

Duh... I don't support the bonehead word faith notion either. I didn't say 'if you sow a seed you'll be blessed of God.'

I didn't say ANYTHING actually, other than "what does someone sow? A seed"

I absolutely LOVE IT when you misrepresent whatever I say.

It's cool. God can forgive you. I might too... someday.



lol
Actually, the problem here is you MUST have just read my post and ignored the many posts before that. The subject is the sow a seed reap a blessing of God and Dan was arguing for and gave THAT exact scripture and I pointed out this verse does NOT say you can do that and then you came in and tried to argue with me as though you believe it does. So the fault lies more with you misrepresenting MY point.

[Praxeas]

True, but then he qualifies it by referring to either corruption or Spiritual things...that is a far cry from sowing money and reaping MORE money.

It 's talking about the difference in eternal life and eternal destruction...

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.
Gal 6:6 One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Gal 6:9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.
Oh, btw. For those that ignored the context and think this can be used to support sowing ANYTHING at all, don't forget this part of the context

Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

That is what Paul is talking about. Sowing to the flesh are the works OF the flesh. Sowing to the Spirit are the fruits OF the Spirit. It's NOT talking about money or just anything one imagines

[Ronzo]

Actually, the problem here is you MUST have just read my post and ignored the many posts before that. The subject is the sow a seed reap a blessing of God and Dan was arguing for and gave THAT exact scripture and I pointed out this verse does NOT say you can do that and then you came in and tried to argue with me as though you believe it does. So the fault lies more with you misrepresenting MY point.
Of course I only read that post, sparky... I didn't IGNORE them... I simply refused to read them.

Do you think I actually WANT to read eavery post (especially YOURS?) in this thread before I give you some 'wut-fer'? lol

I just wanna jump right in and give you a good whoopin from the get go! And I did just that. ;)

Go lick your wounds... :slaphappy

[Praxeas]

Of course I only read that post, sparky... I didn't IGNORE them... I simply refused to read them.

Do you think I actually WANT to read eavery post (especially YOURS?) in this thread before I give you some 'wut-fer'? lol

I just wanna jump right in and give you a good whoopin from the get go! And I did just that. ;)

Go lick your wounds... :slaphappy
Like I said, you jumped into something you had no clue about and misrepresented my point. Juvenile

[Ronzo]

Like I said, you jumped into something you had no clue about and misrepresented my point. Juvenile
That's right, you're the epitomy of maturity and I'm just the snot nosed brat.




Ok...

If you say so.

[Praxeas]

That's right, you're the epitomy of maturity and I'm just the snot nosed brat.




Ok...

If you say so.
Juvenile and sophomoric actually, I mean your attempt at trying to start a war of words with me and play macho mas macho. lol

[Ronzo]

Juvenile and sophomoric actually, I mean your attempt at trying to start a war of words with me and play macho mas macho. lol
I guess you don't know that smilies and 'lol' means I'm having fun...

Ok...

No joking with Macho Man Prax. He doesn't know how to take a joke.

I'm glad I finally figured that out. ;)

[RevDWW]

Are blessings an indicator of salvation?
How about producing fruit in our own lives?

:thumbsup

[Ronzo]

Are blessings an indicator of salvation?
How about producing fruit in our own lives?

:thumbsup
Fruit's over rated.


As long as we're RIGHT, who cares what our fruit looks like?

[RevDWW]

Fruit's over rated.


As long as we're RIGHT, who cares what our fruit looks like?

Nothing wrong with being RIGHT as long as part of that RIGHT is a RIGHT attitude........:winkgrin

[Ronzo]

Nothing wrong with being RIGHT as long as part of that RIGHT is a RIGHT attitude........:winkgrin
We dun need no steenkeen right attitudes!

[Praxeas]

I guess you don't know that smilies and 'lol' means I'm having fun...

Ok...

No joking with Macho Man Prax. He doesn't know how to take a joke.

I'm glad I finally figured that out. ;)
Bah, I just figured the three stooges were at it again...BTW where is Dan and J-roc?

All three of us should get together sometime and down a few root beers and smash the cans on our foreheads....:macho:macho:macho:macho


BTW just kidding about the stooges...I don't think you are a stooge :slaphappy

[Praxeas]

We dun need no steenkeen right attitudes!
Are you sure? We are talking about the New Church Oder...

[Ronzo]

BTW just kidding about the stooges...I don't think you are a stooge :slaphappy
Well... if you did, you know what 'they' say (who are THEY anyway and why are THEY always making up sayings?)... "It takes one to know one" :killinme

If you ever make it to TX, Danny boy and I will treat you to a good beati... I mean a "good dinner".

Are you sure? We are talking about the New Church Oder...
Order? Order is for ultracons... ;)

[Praxeas]

Well... if you did, you know what 'they' say (who are THEY anyway and why are THEY always making up sayings?)... "It takes one to know one" :killinme

If you ever make it to TX, Danny boy and I will treat you to a good beati... I mean a "good dinner".


Order? Order is for ultracons... ;)
I always say, someday I would like to meet Dan in person, in a well lit area

[Ronzo]

I always say, someday I would like to meet Dan in person, in a well lit area
Wise move.

He's shifty. ;)

:drama


Nah... I had the guy in my home for three days. He's good folk. He's got a lot more wisdom than some folks here give him credit for.

[Praxeas]

Wise move.

He's shifty. ;)

:drama


Nah... I had the guy in my home for three days. He's good folk. He's got a lot more wisdom than some folks here give him credit for.
Nothing was missing afterwards?

[Ronzo]

Nothing was missing afterwards?
Nope... he actually left something here for me out of the kindness of his heart... it's called a MESS!

;)



Just kidding. It was a mess before he got here.

[CC1]

I can tell you that the "New Church Order" was something KP coined when I was still living in Austin before I moved to Nashville in 1999.

It came to him in prayer and in thought about what needs to happen for end time revival to happen. As you know he has long thought that many of the man imposed obstacles to revival are going to have to fall.

I don't think it is a promotional tool at all. The end result may be that but I think it is a heartfelt belief in the concept that many things will have to change for God's great commission to be fulfilled.

I believe he is addressing both old mainline denominational churches and old time Pentecost when he talks about there needing to be a new church order.


BUMP for Keith4Jeanie,

I am not sure you saw this post.

[Pastor Keith]

BUMP for Keith4Jeanie,

I am not sure you saw this post.

Man you are on a roll, Dave Letterman should have you be a writer.

I don't have so much an issue with KP, he has and will always be about Acts 2:38, but how do you bring others on board with what you are doing.

My sense is that if I were to make an effort to join with their efforts, would it only be about preaching conferences where I get to here them and that it, or do could we have a greater overall purpose and focus that is not about personalities.

[pope john paul]

:blah :drama :blah

just because some district boards follow the mistakes of the holy church does not make it right as they follow our mistakes.

Hmm ... lets' look at the parallel ...

The goal is to restore fallen ministers .. like the RC.???

Does the RC restore fallen ministers or do they cover for those still in it?

I know of a few District boards who have covered the tails of a few ...

JP ... you're agenda filled post is flawed and slaps you right back.

[Brother Strange]

That's all fine and dandy, Praxeas ... it's utopian to say that we give just to give ...
and yes ... some overdue the expectation aspect of giving .... tantalizing folks w/ new cars and homes ....

but what is the difference between that and the country preacher who preaches that giving tithes will open the windows of heaven in their homes, jobs, etc.

God's Word still stands ... what we reap is what we sowed ...

Reminding people, whether from a dusty pulpit or on a overly ornate stage set via tv, about the Law of Harvest is what it is ....

I just started reading this thread, finally.

The difference?

The difference is the appeal. Does the country preacher appeal to the avaricous, the fallen, the lower base nature of man in making the appeal? Or does he appeal to righteousness, a desire to please God and the joy of giving? If he appeals to the "give to get back a hundred fold" greed nature as so many have learned to do. It is wrong. The scriptures are being spiritually perverted, though truths of increase are obvious...but not always in ways that the greedy are motivated to give.

The righteous will give out of joy of giving knowing that their giving will advance the cause of the kingdom of God...without regard to personal wealth in return. A true servants heart will be uncovered, demonstrated, yes manifested in thier attitude of giving. You should never try to manipulate God with giving; "I'll give a thousand dollars, I am sure to get back $100,000 which is a hundred fold...just like the televangelist promised." This appeal is ungodly. Sadly, I am beginning to see this snake crawling and hissing among us more than makes me comfortable. Appeal to the lust of the flesh, you will get a harvest of flesh. Appeal to the servants heart, you will get brokeness, sacrifice, and service without regard to personal gain. The APPEAL is what makes the difference.

[Brother Strange]

Brother Phil Jones said...

I think they desire for this to become a loose fellowship that is built around the W&S doctrine

Question:

What is the W&S doctrine?

[philjones]

Brother Phil Jones said...



Question:

What is the W&S doctrine?

New Birth = Water (W) and Spirit (S) baptisms. Basically, in AFF terms, PAJC position on salvation.

[Brother Strange]

New Birth = Water (W) and Spirit (S) baptisms. Basically, in AFF terms, PAJC position on salvation.

Oh! Thanks! I should have guessed.

I have known that Kenneth and Wanda were strong NB advocates all of their lives. Our ol' Pastor put that in us so strong that neither this world or the world to come can move it out of us. That is true with the Oneness doctrine too. G.A.M. literally BEAT that into the marrow of our bones.