Articles of Faith "Information Request"

[delta soundman]

Careful, I'M DANGEROUS!!!!
**BE WARNED!!! People are watching my every move on this forum. So if you wish to respond do so carefully. Somebody might call your dad and threaten them.**

Are the UPCI articles of faith a recomendation, list of minimum requirements, or "the law" for the church members. I don't have my own copy of the UPCI artcles of faith so I have no way of forming my own judgement. This forum offers a wide variety of people who can give opinions from all sides. Your input is greatly appreciated.

[Nahum]

This oughta be good.

[Jesuswins]

:girlpopcorn

[Nahum]

Articles Of Faith Of The United Pentecostal Church International

PREAMBLE

WE BELIEVE the Bible to be inspired of God; the infallible Word of God. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).

The Bible is the only God-given authority which man possesses; therefore, all doctrine, faith, hope, and all instruction for the church must be based upon, and harmonize with, the Bible. It is to be read and studied by all men everywhere, and can only be clearly understood by those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27)."... no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:20, 21).

ARTICLES OF FAITH

THE ONE TRUE GOD

We believe in the one ever-living, eternal God: infinite in power, Holy in nature, attributes and purpose; and possessing absolute, indivisible deity. This one true God has revealed Himself as Father, through His Son, in redemption; and as the Holy Spirit, by emanation. (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:6; 2 Cor. 5:19; Joel 2:28).

The Scripture does more than attempt to prove the existence of God; it asserts, assumes and declares that the knowledge of God is universal. (Romans 1:19, 21, 28, 32; 2:15). God is invisible, incorporeal, without parts, without body, and therefore free from all limitations. He is Spirit (John 4:24), and a spirit hath not flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39).

The first of all the commandments is, hear, 0 Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29; Deut. 6:4). "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph. 4:6).

This one true God manifested Himself in the Old Testament in divers ways; in the Son while He walked among men; as the Holy Spirit after the ascension.


THE SON OF GOD

The one true God, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, took upon Himself the form of man, and as the Son of man, was born of the virgin Mary. As Paul says "and without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (1 Timothy 3:16).

"He came unto His own, and His own received Him not" (John 1:11). This one true God was manifest in the flesh, that is, in His Son Jesus Christ. ". . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. . ." (2 Cor. 5:19).

We believe that, ". . in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9). "For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell" (Col. 1:19). Therefore, Jesus in His humanity was man; in His deity was and is God. His flesh was the lamb, or the sacrifice of God. He is the only mediator between God and man. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5).

Jesus on His Father's side was divine, on His mother's side, human; Thus, He was known as the Son of God and also the son of man, or the God-man.

"For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him" (1 Cor. 15:27). "And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28).

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

THE NAME

God used different titles, such as "God Elohim", "El Shaddai", "Jehovah", and especially "Jehovah Lord", the redemptive name in the Old Testament.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: ... and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). This prophecy of Isaiah was fulfilled when the Son of God was named, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus: for He shall save His People from their sins" (Matt. 1:21).

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

CREATION OF MAN AND HIS FALL

In the beginning God created man innocent, pure and holy; but through the sin of disobedience, Adam and Eve, the first of the human race, fell from their holy state, and God banished them from Eden. Hence by one man's disobedience, sin entered into the world. (Gen. 1:27; Rom. 3:23, 5:12).

REPENTANCE AND CONVERSION

Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the Apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word "repentance" comes from several Greek words which mean, change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, to transform, etc.

Jesus said, -except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

Luke 24:47 says, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

WATER BAPTISM

The scriptural mode of baptism is immersion, and is only for those who have fully repented, having turned from their sins and a love of the world. It should be administered by a duly authorized minister of the Gospel, in obedience to the Word of God, and in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Acts of the Apostles 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5; thus obeying and fulfilling Matthew 28:19.

[Sheltiedad]

I brought the wood for the campfire. :D

[Nahum]

THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

John the Baptist, in Matthew 3:11, said, "...He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire."

Jesus, in Acts 1:5, said, "...ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

Luke tells us in Acts 2:4, they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues (languages), as the Spirit gave them utterance."

The terms "baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire," "filled with the Holy Spirit," and the "gift of the Holy Ghost" are synonymous terms used interchangeably in the Bible.

It is scriptural to expect all who receive the gift, filling, or baptism of the Holy Spirit to receive the same physical, initial sign of speaking with other tongues.

The speaking with other tongues, as recorded in Acts 2:4, 10:46, and 19:6, and the gift of tongues, as explained in 1 Corinthians, chapters 12 and 14, are the same in essence, but different in use and purpose.

The Lord, through the Prophet Joel, said, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; ..." (Joel 2:28).

Peter, in explaining this phenomenal experience, said, having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He (Jesus) hath shed forth this which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33).

Further, "...The promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINE

The basic and fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of full salvation, which is repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

We shall endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all brethren that they shall not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body.

DIVINE HEALING

The first covenant that the Lord (Jehovah) made with the children of Israel after they were brought out of Egypt was a covenant of healing. The Lord said, ". . if thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord (Jehovah-Rapha, the Lord that healeth) thy God, and wilt do that which is right in His sight, and wilt give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am the Lord that healeth thee." (Exodus 15:26).

Some translations read: "For I am Jehovah, thy physician," He being our physician or doctor, we have the most capable in the whole world. Our Lord Jesus Christ went about Galilee, preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and disease among the people. (Matthew 4:23, 24).

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).

The vicarious suffering of the Lord Jesus Christ paid for the healing of our bodies, the same as for the salvation of our souls, for with His stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). Matthew 8:17 reads, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses" (See also I Peter 2:24).

We see from this that divine healing for the body is in the atonement. That being true, then it is for all who believe. Jesus said of believers, ". . they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Later, James wrote in his Epistle to all the churches: "Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:14-16).

All of these promises are for the church today.

SACRAMENT OR COMMUNION

On the night of our Lord's betrayal, He ate the Passover supper with His Apostles, after which He instituted the sacrament. "And He took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, this is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper saying, this cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:19-20).

Paul instructed the church how to observe it (I Cor. 11:23-34).

Thus was instituted the use of literal bread and the fruit of the vine, which are partaken of literally, as emblems of His broken body and shed blood. There is also a spiritual significance and blessing in partaking of the sacrament.

FOOT WASHING

When the Passover supper was ended, we read in John 13:4-5, "He riseth from supper, and laid aside His garments; and took a towel, and girded Himself. After that He poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith He was girded."

Jesus said, "If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you" (John 13:14-15).

This first example was given by our Lord, and it is a divine institution. It is well to follow His example and wash one another's feet; thus manifesting the spirit of humility.

HOLINESS

Godly living should characterize the life of every child of the Lord, and we should live according to the pattern and example given in the Word of God. "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and Godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11,12). "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was 'guile found in His mouth: who, when He was reviled, reviled not again; when He suffered, He threatened not; but committed himself to Him that judgeth righteously" (1 Peter 2:21-23).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14).

"But as He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:15-19).

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and Godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.

THE GRACE OF GOD

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and Godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11,12).

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).

A Christian, to keep saved, must walk with God and keep himself in the love of God (Jude 21) and in the grace of God. The word "grace" means "favor." When a person transgresses and sins against God, he loses his favor. If he continues to commit sin and does not repent, he will eventually be lost and cast into the lake of fire. (Read John 15:2, 6; 2 Peter 2:20-21). Jude speaks of the backsliders of his day, and their reward. (Also, read Hebrews 6:4-6).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).

RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS

We understand the scripture to teach the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21). But we cannot find where the devil, his angels, and all sinners are included. (See Rev. 20:10).

[Nahum]

CONSCIENTIOUS SCRUPLES

We recognize the institution of human government as being of divine ordination, and, in so doing, affirm unswerving loyalty to our Government; however, we take a definite position regarding the bearing of arms or the taking of human life.

As followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, we believe in implicit obedience to His commandments and precepts which instruct us as follows: ".. that ye resist not evil. . ." (Matt. 5:39): "Follow peace with all men..." (Heb. 12:14). (See also Matt. 26:52; Rom. 12:19; James 5:6; Revelation 13:10). These we believe and interpret to mean Christians shall not shed blood nor take human life.

Therefore, we propose to fulfill all the obligations of loyal citizens, but are constrained to declare against participating in combatant service in war, armed insurrection, property destruction, aiding or abetting in or the actual destruction of human life.

Furthermore, we cannot conscientiously affiliate with any union, boycott, or organization which will force or bind any of its members to belong to any organization, perform any duties contrary to our conscience, or receive any mark, without our right to affirm or reject same (1930).

However, we regret the false impression created by some groups or so-called "conscientious objectors" that to obey the Bible is to have a contempt for law or magistrates, to be disloyal to our Government and in sympathy with our enemies, or to be unwilling to sacrifice for the preservation of our commonwealth. This attitude would be as contemptible to us as to any patriot. The Word of God commands us to do violence to no man. It also commands us that first of all we are to pray for rulers of our country. We, therefore, exhort our members to freely and willingly respond to the call of our Government except in the matter of bearing arms. When we say service, we mean service-no matter how hard or dangerous. The true church has no more place for cowards than has the nation. First of all, however, let us earnestly pray that we will with honor be kept out of war.

We believe that we can be consistent in serving our Government in certain noncombatant capacities, but not in the bearing of arms. (1940).

We further believe that our military personnel must live in a manner consistent with the Articles of Faith.

SECRET SOCIETIES, ETC.

According to the Word of God, we firmly believe and hold that the

people of God should have no connection whatever with secret societies or any other organization or body wherein there is a fellowship with unbelievers, bound by an oath. (James 5:12;

2 Cor. 6:14-18).

TRANSLATION OF SAINTS

We believe that the time is drawing near when our Lord shall appear; then the dead in Christ shall arise, and we who are alive and remain shall be caught up with them to meet our Lord in the air.

(1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Phil. 3:20-21).

MARRIAGE AND DIVORCE

"Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery:" (Matt. 19:9). (Matt. 5:32), When this sin has been committed, the innocent party may be free to remarry only in the Lord. Our desire being to raise a higher standard for the ministry, we recommend that ministers do not marry again.

Judgment begins at the House of God. See instructions for the ministry under Article VII, Sec. 8.

TITHING

We believe tithing is God's financial plan to provide for His work, and has been since the days of Abraham. Tithing came with faith under Abraham, Moses' law enjoined it, and Israel practiced it when she was right with God; Jesus indorsed it (Matt. 23:23); and Paul said to lay by in store as God has prospered you. Do not rob God of His portion, viz., tithes and offerings. (Read Mall 3).

SECOND COMING OF JESUS

That Jesus is coming again the second time in person, just as He went away, is clearly set forth by the Lord Jesus Himself, and was preached and taught in the early Christian church by the apostles; hence, the children of God today are earnestly, hopefully, looking forward to the glorious event. (Matt. 24; Acts 1:11, 3:19-21; 1 Cor.. 11:26; Phil. 3:20-21; 1 Thess.. 4:14-17; Titus 2:13, 14).

THE MILLENNIUM

Moreover, we believe that the distress upon the earth is the "beginning of sorrows" and will become more intense until there "shall be a time of trouble such as there never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Matthew 24:3-8, Dan. 12:1), and that period of "tribulation" will be followed by the dawn of a better day on earth and that for a thousand years there shall be "peace on earth and good will toward men." (Rev. 20:1-5; Isa. 65:17-25; Matt.. 5:5; Dan. 7:27; Mic.. 4:1, 2; Heb. 2:14; Rom. 11:25-27).

FINAL JUDGMENT

When the thousand years are finished, there shall be a resurrection of all the dead, who will be summoned before the great white throne for their final judgment, and all whose names are not found written in the Book of Life shall be cast into the lake of fire, burning with brimstone which God bath prepared for the Devil and his angels, Satan himself being cast in first. (Matt.. 25:41; Rev. 20:7, 15, 21:8).

PUBLIC SCHOOL ACTIVITIES

We disapprove of school students attending shows, dances, dancing classes, theatres, engaging in school activities against their religious scruples, and wearing gymnasium clothes which immodestly expose the body.

We disapprove of school students being forced to take coeducational classes which involve boys and girls being mixed together in swimming, calisthenics, baseball, and other mixed athletics while clothed in ungodly attire which immodestly exposes the body.

We disapprove of school students being forced to take any classes in which, under the guise of health classes, sex education is taught coeducationally or films or lectures are given that promote amoral or unnatural behavior.

We disapprove of school students being forced to be taught by or listen to those who promote or advocate sexual activity of any kind other than that within the bonds of the marriage relationship of husband and wife.

RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY

The annual Conference is declared to be an International Religious Holiday for all members and all members are urged to attend.

From: UPCI Ministerial Manual, 1995, PAGES 19-27.

[Sam]

If you go to
http://www.spiritualabuse.org/issues/affirmation.html
there is an article about the articles of faith plus you can find links (colored blue) where you can access the actual articles, affirmation statement, etc. The link to Bro. Stange's article does not work because his site, The Apostolic Library, just made some changes and has to be accessed at .net instead of .com

[deltaguitar]

OK, so if a pastor tells a woman that she is not going to HELL if she cuts her hair is he in violation of the Articles of Faith.

[Nahum]

OK, so if a pastor tells a woman that she is not going to HELL if she cuts her hair is he in violation of the Articles of Faith.

Delta,

UPC ministers cannot speak in opposition to anything listed in the articles I posted. They sign an affirmation statement every two years affirming that they believe, practice and teach these articles.

Any minister speaking against any item in these articles risks his ministerial credentials.

[Sheltiedad]

Keep in mind that the manual has much more in it than the articles of faith...

[Sheltiedad]

And that it lists, "All worldly sports and amusements" right next to hair... I wonder how many are preaching against ALL worldly sports and amusements... that would be just about everything imaginable...

[ALVIN]

Careful, I'M DANGEROUS!!!!
**BE WARNED!!! People are watching my every move on this forum. So if you wish to respond do so carefully. Somebody might call your dad and threaten them.**

Are the UPCI articles of faith a recomendation, list of minimum requirements, or "the law" for the church members. I don't have my own copy of the UPCI artcles of faith so I have no way of forming my own judgement. This forum offers a wide variety of people who can give opinions from all sides. Your input is greatly appreciated.

Why would the UPCI Articles of Faith have anything to do with church members?

The local church's own by-laws govern the congregation, not the UPCI Articles, unless the congregation has adopted the UPCI Articles as their own.

Goofy religious people who threaten legal action like they were ordinary sinners don't really matter much.

[Sheltiedad]

Why would the UPCI Articles of Faith have anything to do with church members?

The local church's own by-laws govern the congregation, not the UPCI Articles, unless the congregation has adopted the UPCI Articles as their own.

Goofy religious people who threaten legal action like they were ordinary sinners don't really matter much.

ARTICLE II
MEMBERSHIP

Membership in the United Pentecostal Church International shall consist of all
ministers and missionaries holding an accredited credential or license, and all members
of local assemblies which are affiliated with us, and shall be called "Organization."

[Steve Epley]

Delta,

UPC ministers cannot speak in opposition to anything listed in the articles I posted. They sign an affirmation statement every two years affirming that they believe, practice and teach these articles.

Any minister speaking against any item in these articles risks his ministerial credentials.

AND IS A LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[deltaguitar]

Delta,

UPC ministers cannot speak in opposition to anything listed in the articles I posted. They sign an affirmation statement every two years affirming that they believe, practice and teach these articles.

Any minister speaking against any item in these articles risks his ministerial credentials.

Do the articles say that cutting hair is a sin? How can the UPC ever have meaningful dialogue if their ministers can't even ask a question?

[Nahum]

Delta,

UPC ministers cannot speak in opposition to anything listed in the articles I posted. They sign an affirmation statement every two years affirming that they believe, practice and teach these articles.

Any minister speaking against any item in these articles risks his ministerial credentials.

AND IS A LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and Godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.

Epley, when I view this I am left with the impression that we have a lot of liars.

[Steve Epley]

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and Godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.

Epley, when I view this I am left with the impression that we have a lot of liars.

PP some of these have WIDE latitudes it seems to me that allows a pastor to determine like "what is worldly amusements?" However the television and haircutting is clear so to sign that and preach the contrary would make one a liar UNLESS they place a disclaimer on the AS letter.

[deltaguitar]

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and Godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.

Epley, when I view this I am left with the impression that we have a lot of liars.

Everybody I know has a TV.

What about saints that go to the rodeo or six flags?

I mean are we going to enforce some rules and not all.

[Nahum]

PP some of these have WIDE latitudes it seems to me that allows a pastor to determine like "what is worldly amusements?" However the television and haircutting is clear so to sign that and preach the contrary would make one a liar UNLESS they place a disclaimer on the AS letter.

What about theater shows at Branson? Six Flags? Shouldn't a pastor be held accountable if his saints have televisions? If these articles are to have any real meaning, enforcement should be key. Pastors should not allow folks on the voting membership rolls who do things disapproved of by the manual period. Pastors are the only line of defense against these evils mentioned.

All of these things are agreed to when one signs the AS.

[Steve Epley]

Everybody I know has a TV.

What about saints that go to the rodeo or six flags?

I mean are we going to enforce some rules and not all.

The 'worldly amusements' is not clear so it is up for the pastor's interpetation.

[Straightline]

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and Godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.

Epley, when I view this I am left with the impression that we have a lot of liars.


It's time to call 'em as you see 'em, and not worry about the political fallout. A preacher is to represent God's Word to sinful man, not man's sinful wishes to God. We don't preach to keep our numbers, but preach to keep our Call.

The shortest distance to Revival
is to preach a
Straightline

[Sheltiedad]

I still believe that this:

ARTICLE I
PURPOSE

The purpose of the United Pentecostal Church International is to carry the whole
gospel to the whole world by the whole church; to establish an effective organized
effort; to encourage the opening and establishing of new works; to evangelize the
world by every means possible; and to produce and maintain a clean ministry and fellowship.

Directly contradicts this:

31. No minister having a television in his or her home, shall be permitted to hold license or credentials with the United Pentecostal Church International. Furthermore, no United Pentecostal Church International minister shall be permitted to advertise or minister on television. This does not preclude unsolicited representatives of the news media covering functions.

32. The use of video must strictly be limited to those areas in which motion picture cameras and projectors are traditionally permitted to be used: namely, in taking of pictures of families, friends, and church activities and the viewing of educational, religious, and inspirational films that are consistent with wholesome Christian principles. Furthermore, we strongly oppose the viewing of all worldly motion pictures and video films that are shown commercially in theaters and on television for entertainment purposes. All video receivers must be altered so that they are not able to receive television channels.

[Nahum]

The 'worldly amusements' is not clear so it is up for the pastor's interpetation.

Not true. They are specifically mentioned throughout the manual. For instance, organized sporting events are disapproved of, yet many preachers and saints go to pro and college sports events.

These men are liars in the truest sense of the word. They sign a document saying they agree with the holiness article and then ignore it.

[Brother Strange]

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and Godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.

Epley, when I view this I am left with the impression that we have a lot of liars.

Liars???

HA!

Playing Golf is not a worldly sport. I can prove it. Half the UPCI preachers play golf. So there.... That proves it.

[OP_Carl]

OK, so if a pastor tells a woman that she is not going to HELL if she cuts her hair is he in violation of the Articles of Faith.

If he doesn't teach and urge the ladies of his congregation to leave their hair uncut, then he is in violation of his agreement to uphold the articles.

The status of the hair, and the act of cutting it, are not heaven or hell issues.

The spirit of rebellion and the lust for the things of this world, including its fashions and hairstyles, ARE heaven or hell issues.

It has already substantially been proven here at AFF that the notion of whether these two things can occur completely independently of each other in the life of an individual lady is a topic of extensive debate.

[Brother Strange]

***groan***

Don't tell me someone found an inconsistency.

Hey! Listen up here! That can't be! There are no inconsistencies in the Word of God!

The AOF and the Word is the SAME...right?

[Nahum]

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and Godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.

Truthfully now, what percentage of ministers and saints obey EVERY SINGLE ITEM listed here? The AS mandates ministerial obedience to this paragraph.

Again Epley, exactly how many liars do we have exactly?

Why do we major on television and minor on everything else listed? They are all commandments, which is fine by me. Just apply the articles with equal weight and emphasis.

I live by these things.

[Brother Strange]

If he doesn't teach and urge the ladies of his congregation to leave their hair uncut, then he is in violation of his agreement to uphold the articles.

The status of the hair, and the act of cutting it, are not heaven or hell issues.

The spirit of rebellion and the lust for the things of this world, including its fashions and hairstyles, ARE heaven or hell issues.

It has already substantially been proven here at AFF that the notion of whether these two things can occur completely independently of each other in the life of an individual lady is a topic of extensive debate.

WOW WEE!

Now, the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is no longer in its simplicity. It's now getting complicated. What! With all of these nuances, who then can be saved??? The path of righteousness has faded off into the woods to become obscure.

[Sam]

Delta,

UPC ministers cannot speak in opposition to anything listed in the articles I posted. They sign an affirmation statement every two years affirming that they believe, practice and teach these articles.

Any minister speaking against any item in these articles risks his ministerial credentials.

But didn't Nathan Urshan's letter sent out to the ministers encourage them to just go ahead and sign because each could personally interpret and apply the rules and they should not fear any reprisals?

Also, don't many look upon the rules like we look at the old "blue laws" that are still on the secular law books --yeah, they're still officially on the books but by general consensus they are ignored because they are considered out of date and obsolete?

[deltaguitar]

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and Godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.

Truthfully now, what percentage of ministers and saints obey EVERY SINGLE ITEM listed here? The AS mandates ministerial obedience to this paragraph.

Again Epley, exactly how many liars do we have exactly?

Why do we major on television and minor on everything else listed? They are all commandments, which is fine by me. Just apply the articles with equal weight and emphasis.

I live by these things.


Well, I know of pastors who have gone bowling and play golf and there is always alcohol served at these places.

[OP_Carl]

Everybody I know has a TV.

I don't have one. I know a few people that don't. Most of the UPC homes I've been in have one.

What about saints that go to the rodeo or six flags? Officially, pastors are to discourage this.

I mean are we going to enforce some rules and not all.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the wording was more along the line of expectations or guidelines, not rules or commandments. The things mentioned are "wholeheartedly disapproved" of, not listed as grounds for excommunication or revocation of voting rights.

[Brother Strange]

But didn't Nathan Urshan's letter sent out to the ministers encourage them to just go ahead and sign because each could personally interpret and apply the rules and they should not fear any reprisals?

Also, don't many look upon the rules like we look at the old "blue laws" that are still on the secular law books --yeah, they're still officially on the books but by general consensus they are ignored because they are considered out of date and obsolete?

Letter from Urshan, huh?


So is that the reason so many of these preachers are getting t.v.s? It's just a matter of interpretation, right?

Ha!

Just exactly what does it take to make a hypocrite? Can anything do it?

[OP_Carl]

WOW WEE!

Now, the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is no longer in its simplicity. It's now getting complicated. What! With all of these nuances, who then can be saved??? The path of righteousness has faded off into the woods to become obscure.

Huh?

[deltaguitar]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the wording was more along the line of expectations or guidelines, not rules or commandments.

Exactly!

[Brother Strange]

WITCH CRAFT...

Paul asked the Galatians, "Who has bewitched you?"

It is pure witchcraft to begin in the spirit and then end up with trying to be made perfect in the flesh. It is witchcraft being exercised on the people.

Fleshly rules according to the opinions of men and not of the doctrines of Christ is NOTHING but witchcraft... The very attempt at trying to be made perfect by fleshly ordinances handed down from a harlot system is sorcery.

Those of you that are of FAITH, the faith of Jesus Christ are the seed of Abraham. Many have chosen to become the followers of the FAITH of some denomination, which seed is NOT of Christ.

The JUST shall live by FAITH. The LAW of men are NOT of faith, according to Paul in Galatians, while dealing with the witchcraft spirit.

Oh my! My passions are now stirring.

Still looking for my invitation to preach the main night at the Gen. Conf in Tampa this year. It has no arrived yet.

[OP_Carl]

Exactly!

You might want to be careful about agreeing with me, since I wholeheartedly agree with the UPC's wholehearted disapproval.

I try to live mindful of this:

Luke 9:62 Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

I am not a perfect person, and this is not an easy saying to continually reconcile.

But this list of "disapproved" things is an excellent guide for the life of any Christian. It is regrettable that some have turned them to rules, and some have turned them into salvational issues. Misconstruing them for bible, heavy-handed or arbitrary enforcement of them, and other forms of pastoral abuse do not make them less meritorious for the sincere Christian.

[delta soundman]

WITCH CRAFT...

Paul asked the Galatians, "Who has bewitched you?"

It is pure witchcraft to begin in the spirit and then end up with trying to be made perfect in the flesh. It is witchcraft being exercised on the people.

Fleshly rules according to the opinions of men and not of the doctrines of Christ is NOTHING but witchcraft... The very attempt at trying to be made perfect by fleshly ordinances handed down from a harlot system is sorcery.

Those of you that are of FAITH, the faith of Jesus Christ are the seed of Abraham. Many have chosen to become the followers of the FAITH of some denomination, which seed is NOT of Christ.

The JUST shall live by FAITH. The LAW of men are NOT of faith, according to Paul in Galatians, while dealing with the witchcraft spirit.

Oh my! My passions are now stirring.

Still looking for my invitation to preach the main night at the Gen. Conf in Tampa this year. It has no arrived yet.

:winkgrinWhen you get that invite can I run the sound????

[revrandy]

I don't think the articles began as dictorial set of rules just a guideline for fellowship but they have transcended into biblical law that is intepreted by those the way they see fit...most of the time it seems to be imbalanced

[Nahum]

I don't have one. I know a few people that don't. Most of the UPC homes I've been in have one.

Officially, pastors are to discourage this.



Maybe I'm missing something here, but the wording was more along the line of expectations or guidelines, not rules or commandments. The things mentioned are "wholeheartedly disapproved" of, not listed as grounds for excommunication or revocation of voting rights.

Please understand that the AS was created to put "teeth" in these articles. These are not suggestions. This is a code of conduct one must live and practice, and oh - let's not forget, BELIEVE.

[delta soundman]

I missed something. What is "AS" ?

[revrandy]

I missed something. What is "AS" ?

Affirmation Statement...

[Sam]

...
Still looking for my invitation to preach the main night at the Gen. Conf in Tampa this year. It has no arrived yet.

Don't feel bad, Bro. Strange, I didn't get one either.

[Brother Strange]

I missed something. What is "AS" ?

Just one "s" short of Balaam's Taxi service.

[Brother Strange]

Don't feel bad, Bro. Strange, I didn't get one either.

I'm certain that you would get one or a dozen before I EVER got one.

Talk about a rebuke! I would stand there before all those preachers and take my time tearing the Manual and the AS to shreds before the whole gathering, showing clearly that this is work of image building in the Plains of Dura and the demands placed upon those down in Dura to bow before it is displeasing to the God that I know who rules in the affairs of men.

When I got through, they would be in the altars repenting or they would be hauling me out of there on the shoulders of the Security men.

I suspect that I would not get very far into it.

[OP_Carl]

Please understand that the AS was created to put "teeth" in these articles. These are not suggestions. This is a code of conduct one must live and practice, and oh - let's not forget, BELIEVE.

I don't have a problem with this aspect of the AS. How else can a UPC pastor teach and encourage people to live by these guidelines if he doesn't believe in and live them himself?

Once again, they are only guidelines for the congregation, unless a local church has some special by-laws. And the AS makes them a condition of fellowship and membership for the Pastor only.

But don't get me wrong. I'm ALL FOR pastors and preachers that can't keep their eyes on the prize. Watching a pastor incrementally compromising and ignoring these guidelines is a GREAT WAY TO GAUGE HIS SINCERITY.

If you sign a statement wherein you agree to abide by these guidelines, and then you don't abide by them, what are you if not insincere?

[revrandy]

I do find it interesting that a number of Church's Larger ones seem to be NOT affiliated or unaffiliated with the UPC... only the Pastor carries a licsence..

[Ferd]

I don't have one. I know a few people that don't. Most of the UPC homes I've been in have one.

Officially, pastors are to discourage this.



Maybe I'm missing something here, but the wording was more along the line of expectations or guidelines, not rules or commandments. The things mentioned are "wholeheartedly disapproved" of, not listed as grounds for excommunication or revocation of voting rights.

when I was a kid, we would walk 20 Kilometers, raise at least $100 bucks and all get a free trip to Astroworld in Houston. did it every year. We would stop in Vidor Tx at McDonalds and I would get a Large Coke, Big Mac, Large fry, 6 nuggets and a hot apple pie.

I nailed worldly amusements and gluttony all in one fell swoop!

[SDG]

when I was a kid, we would walk 20 Kilometers, raise at least $100 bucks and all get a free trip to Astroworld in Houston. did it every year. We would stop in Vidor Tx at McDonalds and I would get a Large Coke, Big Mac, Large fry, 6 nuggets and a hot apple pie.

I nailed worldly amusements and gluttony all in one fell swoop!

I remember when the NYMD sponsored a Youth event at Six Flags, NJ for many years ... they would reserve a private section ... have a concert ... usually featuring locals like Doug Davis and Tammi Trout ... eat some fried chicken ... then we'd go among the heathens and engage in mixed WORLDLY AMUSEMENTS.

[tbpew]

In an ideal apostolic discussion board that invites this kind of document scrutiny, every organization represented by the posters (particularly those who thrive on this type of content) would enjoy the same examination.

Sam, Epley, CC1, Danny-boy...others
would you post the links to this same category of stuff for the organizations you fellowship?

thanks in advance.

[Ferd]

I remember when the NYMD sponsored a Youth event at Six Flags, NJ for many years ... they would reserve a private section ... have a concert ... usually featuring locals like Doug Davis and Tammi Trout ... eat some fried chicken ... then we'd go among the heathens and engage in mixed WORLDLY AMUSEMENTS.

we didnt reserve anything. we went to what every concerts were going on at the time, went to the IMAX and all the other stuff the heatherns were doing.

but I am from "that liberal church" so we could do that stuff. Our girls even shaved their legs...evidnetly that was a big no-no back in the day too.

[SDG]

we didnt reserve anything. we went to what every concerts were going on at the time, went to the IMAX and all the other stuff the heatherns were doing.

but I am from "that liberal church" so we could do that stuff. Our girls even shaved their legs...evidnetly that was a big no-no back in the day too.

Yeah but yours was church sponsored ... ours was district organized and on the district calendar .... so BOOYA!!!!

[Turbid Bliss]

What are folks that go to UPC churches allowed to do for fun? (besides eat!)

[Ferd]

Yeah but yours was church sponsored ... ours was district organized and on the district calendar .... so BOOYA!!!!

LOL! I guess you win!

[The Dean]

I don't have a problem with this aspect of the AS. How else can a UPC pastor teach and encourage people to live by these guidelines if he doesn't believe in and live them himself?

Once again, they are only guidelines for the congregation, unless a local church has some special by-laws. And the AS makes them a condition of fellowship and membership for the Pastor only.

But don't get me wrong. I'm ALL FOR pastors and preachers that can't keep their eyes on the prize. Watching a pastor incrementally compromising and ignoring these guidelines is a GREAT WAY TO GAUGE HIS SINCERITY.

If you sign a statement wherein you agree to abide by these guidelines, and then you don't abide by them, what are you if not insincere?


I wish I could say 'amen' in 25 languages. This post deserves them all.


:choir

[SDG]

What are folks that go to UPC churches allowed to do for fun? (besides eat!)

Gossip???

[Ferd]

What are folks that go to UPC churches allowed to do for fun? (besides eat!)

Post on AFF how silly some of the AOF are.

[Turbid Bliss]

Post on AFF how silly some of the AOF are.
Ahhhh! This is a fun bunch! :bliss

[SDG]

What are folks that go to UPC churches allowed to do for fun? (besides eat!)

Go to Six Flags, the movie theater, and ballpark anyway and feel guilty about it while looking for the black helicopters the entire time.

[Sheltiedad]

I think the only person who was a helicopter pilot no longer posts here...

[Turbid Bliss]

I think the only person who was a helicopter pilot no longer posts here...

Did he get caught spying?

[Turbid Bliss]

Go to Six Flags, the movie theater, and ballpark anyway and feel guilty about it while looking for the black helicopters the entire time.
Seriously, I'm interested in what is 'approved' for family fun time!

[tbpew]

I think the only person who was a helicopter pilot no longer posts here...
I think once their hymns and bus ministry routes were adopted, the local officials are now cool with using trinitarian helicopter pilots for the 'recon' efforts.:sshhh

[Ronzo]

I think once their hymns and bus ministry routes were adopted, the local officials now use trinitarian helicopter pilots for the 'recon' efforts.:sshhh
Outsourcing... gotta love it. ;)

[philjones]

Outsourcing... gotta love it. ;)

Yep, next it will be Trinnes from India or Pakistan!:choir:killinme

[SDG]

Seriously, I'm interested in what is 'approved' for family fun time!

Well,

Parcheesi ... is out ... because it has Hindu pagan origins ...

Uno ... is just another form of diabolical playing cards ...

and Twister ... is just inherently wrong.

[chaotic_resolve]

Delta,

UPC ministers cannot speak in opposition to anything listed in the articles I posted. They sign an affirmation statement every two years affirming that they believe, practice and teach these articles.

Any minister speaking against any item in these articles risks his ministerial credentials.
I have a few minister friends that don't get the AS with their license; I know a few more that have received them sporaticly; and most of them if they do receive them sign under objection with a statement as to what they object and why.

And that it lists, "All worldly sports and amusements" right next to hair... I wonder how many are preaching against ALL worldly sports and amusements... that would be just about everything imaginable...

Playing Golf is not a worldly sport. I can prove it. Half the UPCI preachers play golf. So there.... That proves it.
I was going to mention golf too! :lol In one sunny state, the best place to find a minister of any denomination, but especially a couple I'm most familiar with, is on the golf course any day of the week, excluding Sunday. There have been times they've gone multiple days in a row, which makes me wonder who's exactly paying for their games. I think I know the answer though . . .

Any minister speaking against any item in these articles risks his ministerial credentials. AND IS A LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Epley, how is one a liar for speaking against any item in the article? They'd be a liar if they signed w/out disclosure of objections . . . not simply for speaking out or signing w/disclosure.

Well, I know of pastors who have gone bowling and play golf and there is always alcohol served at these places.
There are other places that serve alcohol, like Applebees, Outback Steakhouse, Texas Roadhouse, Chili's, TGI Friday's . . . I doubt very many refuse to go their because of the alcohol being served.

Careful, I'M DANGEROUS!!!!
**BE WARNED!!! People are watching my every move on this forum. So if you wish to respond do so carefully. Somebody might call your dad and threaten them.**
To the morons harassing and stalking DS online in the forum, trying to use scare tactics . . . get a life.

[Ronzo]

Yep, next it will be Trinnes from India or Pakistan!:choir:killinme

Offshoring the outsourcing! Diabolical! Downright sinful with all the OP preachers out there looking for a job!

[tbpew]

Yep, next it will be Trinnes from India or Pakistan!:choir:killinme

wow, can you imagine the stir if UPC churchs are found out that they are hiring trinitarian Pakistani helicopter pilots to fly over Six Flags
:drama

[philjones]

Well,

Parcheesi ... is out ... because it has Hindu pagan origins ...

Uno ... is just another form of diabolical playing cards ...

and Twister ... is just inherently wrong.

Especially if it is not played in mixed groups.:slaphappy:slaphappy

[tbpew]

man-0-man, i skipped over the whole names as initials and then this nugget gets launched...
To the morons harassing and stalking DS online in the forum, trying to use scare tactics . . . get a life.

I am so out-of-the-loop!

[OP_Carl]

What are folks that go to UPC churches allowed to do for fun? (besides eat!)

Allowed to do? Whatever they want.

What are we going to do for fun if we try to abide by these guidelines?

How about:

Bible Quizzing
non-card party games (some of these are dangerously hilarious)
Horse shoes
Badminton
Croquet
Hunting
Fishing
Hiking
Singing / Playing music
Snowball fights (availability may be limited, unless you stashed some snowballs in your freezer last February like a squirrel)
Quilting
Crocheting
Knitting

And last, but not least, use our imaginations

[deltaguitar]

I guess the problem I have with all of this is that I cannot find any of these standards in my Bible. I love the UPC because I have grown up in this organization. However, the older I get the more worried I become that we have lost our first love and given that up for a bunch of formulas and list.


:confused:

[Sheltiedad]

Allowed to do? Whatever they want.

What are we going to do for fun if we try to abide by these guidelines?

How about:

Bible Quizzing
non-card party games (some of these are dangerously hilarious)
Horse shoes
Badminton
Croquet
Hunting
Fishing
Hiking
Singing / Playing music
Snowball fights (availability may be limited, unless you stashed some snowballs in your freezer last February like a squirrel)
Quilting
Crocheting
Knitting

And last, but not least, use our imaginations

You fascinate me in the same way that WWOD did. Would you mind sharing your testimony and giving us an idea of your age?

[philjones]

Allowed to do? Whatever they want.

What are we going to do for fun if we try to abide by these guidelines?

How about:

Bible Quizzing
non-card party games (some of these are dangerously hilarious)
Horse shoes
Badminton
Croquet
Hunting
Fishing
Hiking
Singing / Playing music
Snowball fights (availability may be limited, unless you stashed some snowballs in your freezer last February like a squirrel)
Quilting
Crocheting
Knitting

And last, but not least, use our imaginations

I thought we were supposed to cast down every imagination!






:killinme

[Brother Strange]

I thought we were supposed to cast down every imagination!






:killinme
:killinme

Insert "evil."

[Rico]

And that it lists, "All worldly sports and amusements" right next to hair... I wonder how many are preaching against ALL worldly sports and amusements... that would be just about everything imaginable...

Except for golf, apparently. :D

[philjones]

Except for golf, apparently. :D

I have played golf with a few Pentecostal preachers and there was nothing amusing about their games... painful to watch but not amusing!:killinme:killinme

[Sheltiedad]

Except for golf, apparently. :D When you become a preacher, you have to choose only ONE of the following two options:

a. hunting and fishing
b. golf

You are mandated to preach against the other one...

[Turbid Bliss]

When you become a preacher, you have to choose only ONE of the following two options:

a. hunting and fishing
b. golf

You are mandated to preach against the other one...

:slaphappy

[OP_Carl]

You fascinate me

Back off. I'm spoken for. :roseglasses

in the same way that WWOD did. And what became of him? He vanished without a trace, nobody has ever found the body, and there are still no leads. :IAM :sshhh :drama

Would you mind sharing your testimony and giving us an idea of your age? Ordinarily, I wouldn't mind, but I'm beginning to feel a little nervous and self-conscious! :nah


:killinme

[Ferd]

I think once their hymns and bus ministry routes were adopted, the local officials are now cool with using trinitarian helicopter pilots for the 'recon' efforts.:sshhh

Ive been told that there is a district official somewhere north of the Mason Dixon line that would drive around after dark, looking for the "Blue Hue" of the television coming from pastors homes.

[OP_Carl]

I guess the problem I have with all of this is that I cannot find any of these standards in my Bible.

That's because the majority are based on scriptural principles and wisdom, not outright proscriptions.

There's nothing in the bible about cigarettes, for or against. But there is something in there that gives Christians a principle to apply to addictive substances:

1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Everything out there is trying to influence you. Very few of them are trying to influence you to be a better Christian, more moral, and to make heaven.

[OP_Carl]

Talk about a rebuke! I would stand there before all those preachers and take my time tearing the Manual and the AS to shreds before the whole gathering, showing clearly that this is work of image building in the Plains of Dura and the demands placed upon those down in Dura to bow before it is displeasing to the God that I know who rules in the affairs of men.

When I got through, they would be in the altars repenting or they would be hauling me out of there on the shoulders of the Security men.

Does this qualify as 'Godly entertainment?'

:killinme

[Ferd]

Back off. I'm spoken for. :roseglasses

And what became of him? He vanished without a trace, nobody has ever found the body, and there are still no leads. :IAM :sshhh :drama

Ordinarily, I wouldn't mind, but I'm beginning to feel a little nervous and self-conscious! :nah


:killinme

I know where the body is.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster
Delta,

UPC ministers cannot speak in opposition to anything listed in the articles I posted. They sign an affirmation statement every two years affirming that they believe, practice and teach these articles.

Any minister speaking against any item in these articles risks his ministerial credentials.

I have a few minister friends that don't get the AS with their license; I know a few more that have received them sporaticly; and most of them if they do receive them sign under objection with a statement as to what they object and why. The sporadic handling of this is bad news.


Originally Posted by Sheltiedad
And that it lists, "All worldly sports and amusements" right next to hair... I wonder how many are preaching against ALL worldly sports and amusements... that would be just about everything imaginable...

Originally Posted by Brother Strange
Playing Golf is not a worldly sport. I can prove it. Half the UPCI preachers play golf. So there.... That proves it.

I was going to mention golf too! In one sunny state, the best place to find a minister of any denomination, but especially a couple I'm most familiar with, is on the golf course any day of the week, excluding Sunday. There have been times they've gone multiple days in a row, which makes me wonder who's exactly paying for their games. I think I know the answer though . . . No scripture against golf. I think we would be fair in questioning whether golf is good stewardship of our time, but along the lines of, 'when does a pasttime become an obsession?'


Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster
Any minister speaking against any item in these articles risks his ministerial credentials.

AND IS A LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Epley, how is one a liar for speaking against any item in the article? They'd be a liar if they signed w/out disclosure of objections . . . not simply for speaking out or signing w/disclosure.
I hope I am not speaking out of turn to suggest that Brother Epley presumes to label only those article-scoffers that have signed their AS. I would add that they are worse than liars, but they are hypocrites and are misleading their flocks and giving an uncertain sound, both with which the scriptures deal severely.

Originally Posted by deltaguitar
Well, I know of pastors who have gone bowling and play golf and there is always alcohol served at these places.

There are other places that serve alcohol, like Applebees, Outback Steakhouse, Texas Roadhouse, Chili's, TGI Friday's . . . I doubt very many refuse to go their because of the alcohol being served.
The difference is that people go to places like the restaurants you mention intending to eat, and they go to the bowling alley with the express goal of drinking alcohol. I've had lunch in taverns / inns, and in the bar areas of such restaurants, but not supper. Because at suppertime, people gather there with the express purpose of drinking. You are correct in noticing that this is a borderline practice, and I usually try to avoid it when possible.

And I have no problem with people who avoid any and all restaurants that offer alcohol on basic principle.

[Ferd]

On the subject of Golf and scripture. if one were to use the principles of scripture as the guide post as is pointed out when talking about the AOF's stand against things like professional baseball....

Baseball games sell lots of beer and there is a serious time factor and cost factor which translates as a stewarship issue. Then there is the gambling issue as people bet on the games.

With Golf, the drinking is everywhere, the gambling is worse but there arent nearly as many underdressed wome walking around.

I dont get why one is ok and the other is not.

[Ferd]

It is a sad day when brothers work to make brothers liars and hypocrits.

[OP_Carl]

It is a sad day when brothers work to make brothers liars and hypocrits.

"and the love of many shall wax cold."

Both love for the Lord, and love for each other.

I'm not sure what else we can do though. Granted, it's an imperfect system. But if we just let everything go . . . .


I'm going to get prepared for this, and have some bumper stickers made that say:

I'M SOLD OUT TO JESUS
BETWEEN THE HOURS OF 9AM TO 1PM MOST SUNDAYS EXCEPT SUPERBOWL SUNDAY, HOME GAMES FOR MY MAJOR LEAGUE TEAM, SUNNY SUNDAYS IN MAY AND JUNE, AND FOUR OR FIVE BOUTS OF UNSPECIFIED STOMACH UNEASINESS

[Sheltiedad]

The difference is that people go to places like the restaurants you mention intending to eat, and they go to the bowling alley with the express goal of drinking alcohol. I've had lunch in taverns / inns, and in the bar areas of such restaurants, but not supper. Because at suppertime, people gather there with the express purpose of drinking. You are correct in noticing that this is a borderline practice, and I usually try to avoid it when possible.

And I have no problem with people who avoid any and all restaurants that offer alcohol on basic principle.

Some of my friends who don't drink will be very surprised that they go to the bowling alley to drink! They think they just go there to bowl. Should I tell them so that they know? :)

[HangingOut]

In my 25+ years in the UPC and a few+ pastors, I have always thought they were to be followed by the licensed minister in which he used as a guideline for his church. I have only had a pastor refer to the manual once in making a point privately that I can remember and thought it a little odd.

[Ferd]

"and the love of many shall wax cold."

Both love for the Lord, and love for each other.

I'm not sure what else we can do though. Granted, it's an imperfect system. But if we just let everything go . . . .


I'm going to get prepared for this, and have some bumper stickers made that say:

I'M SOLD OUT TO JESUS
BETWEEN THE HOURS OF 9AM TO 1PM MOST SUNDAYS EXCEPT SUPERBOWL SUNDAY, HOME GAMES FOR MY MAJOR LEAGUE TEAM, SUNNY SUNDAYS IN MAY AND JUNE, AND FOUR OR FIVE BOUTS OF UNSPECIFIED STOMACH UNEASINESS

OP, in all seriousness. I find that we have come to the place where we think in "all or nothing" terms. and that is wrong. "Let everything go", or hold to the "old paths".

If you ask me, both are equally wrongheaded and lead to a very bad place.

Old paths lead us where we have already been and no paths lead us no where.

we need to realize we live in the present. commit to biblical seperation and jetison those things that have no meaning in the world we live in.

[delta soundman]

Wow, I leave you guys for 4 hrs and ya'll ran with this one. Thanks for all the input............and so far I haven't had this one yanked...........YET!:largehalo

[Ferd]

Wow, I leave you guys for 4 hrs and ya'll ran with this one. Thanks for all the input............and so far I haven't had this one yanked...........YET!:largehalo

give us a few minutes. I think we could come up with something to tip the scale.

[mizpeh]

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and Godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.

So this is where Deseret gets his offensive language, you people..our people, from the Articles of Faith! :slaphappy

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=177709&postcount=10

[chaotic_resolve]

The difference is that people go to places like the restaurants you mention intending to eat, and they go to the bowling alley with the express goal of drinking alcohol. I've had lunch in taverns / inns, and in the bar areas of such restaurants, but not supper. Because at suppertime, people gather there with the express purpose of drinking. You are correct in noticing that this is a borderline practice, and I usually try to avoid it when possible.

Some of my friends who don't drink will be very surprised that they go to the bowling alley to drink! They think they just go there to bowl. Should I tell them so that they know? :)
Well, Sheltiedad beat me to it . . . I've never known anyone to go to a BA to drink. I've known people to bowl, and perhaps have a drink while bowling . . . but not go to a BA just to drink.

I know Applebees packs out the "bar" area during happy hour. Several people from my last job would go there specifically to have a Friday after work drink before heading home. I never went, but they talked more about the half-off drinks than the food, so I'm only assuming they went there expressly to drink.

:thumbsup

[delta soundman]

Would going to Las Vegas on vacation be some sort of violation of the articles of faith?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

So this is where Deseret gets his offensive language, you people..our people, from the Articles of Faith! :slaphappy

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=177709&postcount=10

Is there anyone here who really took Deseret for more than what was apparent?

:drama

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Would going to Las Vegas on vacation be some sort of violation of the articles of faith?

This depends where you live.

Las Vegas was a HOT destination for those attending the Phoenix General Conference.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Well, Sheltiedad beat me to it . . . I've never known anyone to go to a BA to drink. I've known people to bowl, and perhaps have a drink while bowling . . . but not go to a BA just to drink.

I know Applebees packs out the "bar" area during happy hour. Several people from my last job would go there specifically to have a Friday after work drink before heading home. I never went, but they talked more about the half-off drinks than the food, so I'm only assuming they went there expressly to drink.

:thumbsup

I worked for a man who had a suspended license for DWI. He used to go to the bowling alley to drink and sometimes bowl.

Bowling alleys have been associated with pool halls and ill repute for sometime now.

[Sheltiedad]

If it doesn't pass, can they amend the stated purpose of the organization so that it is more accurate?

PURPOSE

The purpose of the United Pentecostal Church International is to carry the whole
gospel to the whole world by the whole church; to establish an effective organized
effort; to encourage the opening and establishing of new works; to evangelize the
world by every means possible; and to produce and maintain a clean ministry and fellowshipThey could change it to say, "To evangelize the world by methods which are acceptable by the status quo."

[chaotic_resolve]

Bowling alleys have been associated with pool halls and ill repute for sometime now.
I remember growing up that bowling alleys then weren't good. Too much drinking and smoking in the place.

However now, at least here in the Mormon-populated PHX Valley, BA's are pretty family-friendly and clean. Most still have bars and allow drinking, but I don't think I've seen anyone, during open public bowling, drinking.

Most of the pool/billiards tables around here are in bars or clubs, so I haven't been to those. In Stockton, CA there was a big family entertainment center that had several rows of pool/billiard tables. But I haven't seen any around here.

[chaotic_resolve]

If it doesn't pass, can they amend the stated purpose of the organization so that it is more accurate?

They could change it to say, "To evangelize the world by methods which are acceptable by the status quo."
I completely agree. In fact, the pro-ad members used that section in one of the arguements for the use of ads. It's hypocritical to say we're evangelizing by every means possible . . . with the exception of ___________.

Dumb.

[delta soundman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njnkktv26aY&mode=related&search=
Is this a violation of the AOF?

[delta soundman]

Somebody PM me with instructions on posting a youtube vid. Thanks

[SDG]

I remember growing up that bowling alleys then weren't good. Too much drinking and smoking in the place.

However now, at least here in the Mormon-populated PHX Valley, BA's are pretty family-friendly and clean. Most still have bars and allow drinking, but I don't think I've seen anyone, during open public bowling, drinking.

Most of the pool/billiards tables around here are in bars or clubs, so I haven't been to those. In Stockton, CA there was a big family entertainment center that had several rows of pool/billiard tables. But I haven't seen any around here.


This is what some fail to understand ... bowling alleys and even movie theaters have evolved ... a lot of family entertainment centers have sprouted ...

We're measuring w/ a 1950's standard ...

[delta soundman]

This is what some fail to understand ... bowling alleys and even movie theaters have evolved ... a lot of family entertainment centers have sprouted ...

We're measuring w/ a 1950's standard ...


Good point dan. Anytime I mention the year to some people a couple of decades older than me they hit me with "God hasn't changed". You don't say. I think that statement is a very over used copout.:Nhl_check

[Rico]

We're measuring w/ a 1950's standard ...

What else is new?

[pelathais]

Why would the UPCI Articles of Faith have anything to do with church members?

The local church's own by-laws govern the congregation, not the UPCI Articles, unless the congregation has adopted the UPCI Articles as their own.

Goofy religious people who threaten legal action like they were ordinary sinners don't really matter much.

I haven't worked through all of the posts yet, so this may have been brought up...

The first question involved a minister and what he was telling a church member.

My understanding of how this would even relate to the AoF and manual is in only what the minister was saying. Was he "speaking against" the AoF? Was he actively encouraging the lay person to violate the AoF?

On the issue of eternal judgement (going to hell) for a woman cutting or not cutting her hair; I think the AoF and the manual are in fact silent. My interpretation only.

The only issue that could be questioned with regard to the manual and the AoF in your hypothetical (or real) scenario is, "Did the minister speak against the AoF?"

IMO: Telling her she would go to hell would be rude and unnecessarily belligerant - and his words would not even be necessarily in support of the AoF. He's just being judgemental in an area that thankfully Christ has reserved for Himself.

You don't have to send everbody else to hell (as if it was even up to you anyway..) to support the AoF. The AoF makes no such claim for itself. This is just an example of people with bad behavior treating others badly.

[Monkeyman]

PP some of these have WIDE latitudes it seems to me that allows a pastor to determine like "what is worldly amusements?" However the television and haircutting is clear so to sign that and preach the contrary would make one a liar UNLESS they place a disclaimer on the AS letter.I'm thinking expensive seafood restaurants, what sayeth ye???:slaphappy

[Monkeyman]

I remember growing up that bowling alleys then weren't good. Too much drinking and smoking in the place.

However now, at least here in the Mormon-populated PHX Valley, BA's are pretty family-friendly and clean. Most still have bars and allow drinking, but I don't think I've seen anyone, during open public bowling, drinking.

Most of the pool/billiards tables around here are in bars or clubs, so I haven't been to those. In Stockton, CA there was a big family entertainment center that had several rows of pool/billiard tables. But I haven't seen any around here.The only bad thing about this place was the name on the sign....Naughty Nick's, he!
Great pizza (so I was told)

[pelathais]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njnkktv26aY&mode=related&search=
Is this a violation of the AOF?

No, this is not a violation of the AoF. The speaker was simply advocating a change to the manual. The manual itself provides for a method to make just these types of changes.

My only problem with television is I cringe when I think of how ridiculous we will make ourselves appear. We're already over run with people who use media in a way that makes us look bad and that humiliates us. I'm tired of sneaking into a parking lot because some hillbilly doesn't care enough about the lost to approach them with respect.

I was interrogated by the police and Federal agents once because of the way one man enjoyed publicizing Acts 2:38. And I came away from that experience very much in support of our government officials and very much against the boneheaded notion that "there's no such thing as bad publicity..."

Are we wanting to spend millions of dollars to tell even more people that we're a bunch of fools? Or will we have the discipline and care to behave ourselves in such a way that the light of Jesus Christ is allowed to shine?

That's always been a difficult issue for us. Why make it into a prime time soap opera?

[Ferd]

No, this is not a violation of the AoF. The speaker was simply advocating a change to the manual. The manual itself provides for a method to make just these types of changes.

My only problem with television is I cringe when I think of how ridiculous we will make ourselves appear. We're already over run with people who use media in a way that makes us look bad and that humiliates us. I'm tired of sneaking into a parking lot because some hillbilly doesn't care enough about the lost the to approach them with respect.

I was interrogated by the police and Federal agents once because of the way one man enjoyed publicizing Acts 2:38. And I came away from that experience very much in support of our government officials and very much against the boneheaded notion that "there's no such thing as bad publicity..."

Are we wanting to spend millions of dollars to tell even more people that we're a bunch of fools? Or will we have the discipline and care to behave ourselves in such a way that the light of Jesus Christ is allowed to shine?

That's always been a difficult issue for us. Why make it into a prime time soap opera?
I share your primary concern but then I remember the idiots on TV now have not ruined the AOG.

[pelathais]

I share your primary concern but then I remember the idiots on TV now have not ruined the AOG.

You got me there.

But then I don't "cringe" when I hear about those guys; only "us" guys.

[OP_Carl]

OP, in all seriousness.There is such a thing as too much seriousness.

I find that we have come to the place where we think in "all or nothing" terms. and that is wrong. "Let everything go", or hold to the "old paths".There are also some out there who want to slice these various issues to the bone and shine the light of truth, the Word, logic, and wisdom upon them, and weigh them on their own merits. I'd like to think I'm one of those, but I recognize I've also got some latent reactionary tendencies.

If you ask me, both are equally wrongheaded and lead to a very bad place. I disagree. Holding to the "old paths" takes us to a more predictable destination. It isn't great, but makes more sense than letting everything go.

Old paths lead us where we have already been and no paths lead us no where. "Already been" also includes a lot of people saved. No paths doesn't exactly lead NOwhere . . .

we need to realize we live in the present. commit to biblical seperation and jetison those things that have no meaning in the world we live in. Why didn't anybody think of this before????? Oh, that's right, they did, and we are still arguing about what has meaning and what doesn't! :rolleyes2

[OP_Carl]

Well, Sheltiedad beat me to it . . . I've never known anyone to go to a BA to drink. I've known people to bowl, and perhaps have a drink while bowling . . . but not go to a BA just to drink.

I know Applebees packs out the "bar" area during happy hour. Several people from my last job would go there specifically to have a Friday after work drink before heading home. I never went, but they talked more about the half-off drinks than the food, so I'm only assuming they went there expressly to drink.

:thumbsup

You guys are right, I was a bit hasty there. I have been to one bowling alley that was trying a family theme. They had put a half-wall around the bar area to keep the kiddies out, and they had several 'family nights' a week.

The rest of my experience has been that if you want to go bowling and you don't want to be around people drinking, you've got to go first thing in the morning.

I further want to express how proud I am of you both for choosing insignificant incongruities in my post, rather than the main theme, for the topic of your replies and the continuation of the thread. If there's one thing we respect and uphold here at AFF, it's tradition.












Oh, wait, it's not. :killinme

[delta soundman]

Thank You Carl!!!!! Your signature is wonderful, think I will use that one this weekend when dealing with some........people.

"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." - Sir Winston Churchill

[Sheltiedad]

Back off. I'm spoken for. :roseglasses

And what became of him? He vanished without a trace, nobody has ever found the body, and there are still no leads. :IAM :sshhh :drama

Ordinarily, I wouldn't mind, but I'm beginning to feel a little nervous and self-conscious! :nah


:killinme

I believe that what intrigues me is that in my experience, someone with your mindset (based on your posts) would not have pursued higher education... especially since you seem a little older than me (I'm guessing you are in your mid-40's but that is based on the tone of your posts)....so may I ask if you did not get "saved" until after completing your education? Or will you shatter my stereotype and say that you grew up in the church, have never wavered in your beliefs and still pursued higher education?

This is the same thing that intrigued me about WWOD... and he told me that he came into the church later in life.

[OP_Carl]

I believe that what intrigues me is that in my experience, someone with your mindset (based on your posts) would not have pursued higher education May I ask what you have perceived my 'mindset' to be? How is it that you've assumed I have a higher education? My mom was a stickler for proper English, so my entire childhood was a lesson on spelling, grammar, sentence structure, and pronunciation.

... especially since you seem a little older than me (I'm guessing you are in your mid-40's but that is based on the tone of your posts) And may I ask how you got this, too?

....so may I ask if you did not get "saved" until after completing your education? You may ask. No.

Or will you shatter my stereotype and say that you grew up in the church, have never wavered in your beliefs and still pursued higher education? In spite of my previous answer, probably not.

This is the same thing that intrigued me about WWOD... and he told me that he came into the church later in life.

What is your working theory about all of this, anyhow?

[ChTatum]

In an ideal apostolic discussion board that invites this kind of document scrutiny, every organization represented by the posters (particularly those who thrive on this type of content) would enjoy the same examination.

Sam, Epley, CC1, Danny-boy...others
would you post the links to this same category of stuff for the organizations you fellowship?
thanks in advance.


"Others" includes me, doesn't it?

Good try, bro, but I don't fellowship based on organization.

[Amos]

Everybody I know has a TV.

What about saints that go to the rodeo or six flags?

I mean are we going to enforce some rules and not all.

TV is a clearly defined thing.

"Wordly amusements" is a term that must be defined by each individual pastor.

Nice try, but it won't wash.

[Sheltiedad]

May I ask what you have perceived my 'mindset' to be? How is it that you've assumed I have a higher education? My mom was a stickler for proper English, so my entire childhood was a lesson on spelling, grammar, sentence structure, and pronunciation. Based on your writings, comments and your sig line, I assumed that you have a degree in Engineering and hold a position as an engineer in a large company. You also come across as defending many of the standards which I have personally rejected as having nothing to back them up other than the feelings of some men 50-100 years ago who started something that has morphed into the Pentecostal culture as we know it today... That is what I meant by mindset.


And may I ask how you got this, too?It was something you said recently about "when you were a young engineer" or something like that. Other than that, totally a guess on my part. Was I right? :)


In spite of my previous answer, probably not.You might be surprised to know that this forum has corrected some misconceptions I had about Pentecost even though I was raised in it my whole life. For example, I had never even heard of a Pentecostal person with a college degree prior to the 1990's, so evidently education is not discouraged as much as it used to be. I have also learned that in the NE education has always been important, even among Pentecostals. Where I grew up (OK, TX, KS) it was openly discouraged from the pulpit just about everywhere we went. I am still in shock that there are lawyers who are in the UPC (I know of at least two)... and now would not be as surprised if I heard of a doctor being Apostolic... although I have not heard of any yet. I find that people under 30 have definitely shattered this stereotype and are earning degrees left and right, and that is great!


What is your working theory about all of this, anyhow? I just find it intriguing when I meet someone that I consider of above average intelligence holding certain views... and the other person who surprised me in that way was WWOD. I don't mean any offense by that, it is actually a compliment.

I should mention that I do not have a college degree myself... but I wish I did. I will eventually obtain one as a "security blanket" to supplement my experience in case I am ever laid off.

[Brother Strange]

Does this qualify as 'Godly entertainment?'

:killinme

It would be.

There would be a long standing applause. The applause would not be for me but for the secuirty guards. :killinme

[chaotic_resolve]

The only bad thing about this place was the name on the sign....Naughty Nick's, he! Great pizza (so I was told)
*sigh* Went looking online for NN's and found an article dated this past February that it was closed and all the games and everything else were sold in an auction. I guess it was bought and the new owners are re-opening it as the "Cameo Club," a cardroom. Too bad....it was a fun, family-friendly place.

Click Here for article (http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070221/A_BIZ/702210301/-1/A_BIZ05)

[OP_Carl]

Based on your writings, comments and your sig line, I assumed that you have a degree in Engineering and hold a position as an engineer in a large company.This is accurate.

You also come across as defending many of the standards which I have personally rejected as having nothing to back them up other than the feelings of some men 50-100 years ago who started something that has morphed into the Pentecostal culture as we know it today... That is what I meant by mindset. I have been abundantly blessed to sit under three different UPC pastors who had/have sufficient wisdom to teach the underlying biblical principles for those AoF guidelines found earlier in this thread. I admire and seek wisdom, and actively work to instill it in my children using the same teaching methods. I am fully aware that there are an abundance of Apostolic pastors that simply dictate the clothesline - I have visited many churches in my life, especially when "church shopping" after a job change/relocation.

It was something you said recently about "when you were a young engineer" or something like that. Other than that, totally a guess on my part. Was I right? :) I guess I am surprised, because based on other reactions I get to my posts here, I was receiving the distinct impression that they weren't being read very carefully. :rolleyes2 You're nearly right. I'm not quite forty.

You might be surprised to know that this forum has corrected some misconceptions I had about Pentecost even though I was raised in it my whole life. For example, I had never even heard of a Pentecostal person with a college degree prior to the 1990's, so evidently education is not discouraged as much as it used to be. I have also learned that in the NE education has always been important, even among Pentecostals. Where I grew up (OK, TX, KS) it was openly discouraged from the pulpit just about everywhere we went. I am still in shock that there are lawyers who are in the UPC (I know of at least two)... and now would not be as surprised if I heard of a doctor being Apostolic... although I have not heard of any yet. I find that people under 30 have definitely shattered this stereotype and are earning degrees left and right, and that is great! There are 3 or 4 degreed and practicing attorneys in my church, 6 degreed engineers, and quite a few degreed nurses. Several of my contemporaries and childhood friends have obtained college degrees under conservative pastors. They usually lived at home, though.

I just find it intriguing when I meet someone that I consider of above average intelligence holding certain views... and the other person who surprised me in that way was WWOD. I don't mean any offense by that, it is actually a compliment. On paper I'm highly intelligent. In real life, I forget my watch and keys, get tired, get frustrated, and feel unmotivated just like everybody else. Intelligence is overrated. Success is found in honesty and work ethic, not intelligence. Wisdom, sense, and the ability to root out underlying notions and principles are more helpful, in my opinion, to sift through the morass of debate here on AFF. But, perhaps your intrigue will lead you to unearth and gain a love for the underlying principles of some of those things you've rejected. If I can help somebody in this regard, I'll consider the time I've spent here worthwhile. :)


Now, in all seriousness, you've simply got to fess up and tell us where you hid WWOD's body! A lead at last!
:killinme

[Rico]

TV is a clearly defined thing.

"Wordly amusements" is a term that must be defined by each individual pastor.

Nice try, but it won't wash.

So six flags isn't a worldly amusement park?

[PoorWiddleMe]

Anyone know the words to "John's Gone to Six Flags, Riding the Big Ben"???

[Amos]

So six flags isn't a worldly amusement park?

I think most of us know the intent of the AOF and the language therein.

We know that the term "worldly amusements" is subjective to a degree, and must be defined in each local situation.

This seems to be an attempt to justify someone's violation of the AOF by a "gotcha" inconsistency red flag.

[Hoovie]

Delta,

UPC ministers cannot speak in opposition to anything listed in the articles I posted. They sign an affirmation statement every two years affirming that they believe, practice and teach these articles.

Any minister speaking against any item in these articles risks his ministerial credentials.

:slaphappy:slaphappy:slaphappy


I am laughing because I doubt there is ANY minister that would live up to the AOF 100%

[Rico]

I think most of us know the intent of the AOF and the language therein.

We know that the term "worldly amusements" is subjective to a degree, and must be defined in each local situation.

This seems to be an attempt to justify someone's violation of the AOF by a "gotcha" inconsistency red flag.

Sorry, Amos, but if ever there was such a thing as worldly amusement, places like Six Flags qualify. They are, afterall, amusement parks. You are right about one thing; it's definitely an attempt to justify violating the AOF.

[foodieworks]

TV is a clearly defined thing.

"Wordly amusements" is a term that must be defined by each individual pastor.

Nice try, but it won't wash.

I am new to the forum and I am not affiliated with the UPC however, did or did not a upc district approve and allow the Borat movie to film in one of their services? I am confused about the allowed use of television.......according to your articles of faith should not the ministers that allowed that be in question concerning their credintals?

[Pragmatist]

I am new to the forum and I am not affiliated with the UPC however, did or did not a upc district approve and allow the Borat movie to film in one of their services? I am confused about the allowed use of television.......according to your articles of faith should not the ministers that allowed that be in question concerning their credintals?

It was misrepresented to them as a documentary to be shown in Kazkhstan (as it was to everyone else in the movie).

[Brother Strange]

It was misrepresented to them as a documentary to be shown in Kazkhstan (as it was to everyone else in the movie).

There you have it ladies and gentlement...

Documentaries are just fine. Commercials will garner a disfellowship kick to the sidewalk.

I have an idea. Let us pass a rule forbidding inconsistencies under penalty of defrock.

[Hoovie]

I am new to the forum and I am not affiliated with the UPC however, did or did not a upc district approve and allow the Borat movie to film in one of their services? I am confused about the allowed use of television.......according to your articles of faith should not the ministers that allowed that be in question concerning their credintals?

I am not sure I understand the question... whose articles of faith are we discussing? I am not aware of anyone or any AOF (at least not represented here) that is against video camera use.

[SDG]

In an ideal apostolic discussion board that invites this kind of document scrutiny, every organization represented by the posters (particularly those who thrive on this type of content) would enjoy the same examination.

Sam, Epley, CC1, Danny-boy...others
would you post the links to this same category of stuff for the organizations you fellowship?

thanks in advance.

You broke the vow!!!! :igotit :killinme:killinme:killinme:killinme

[SarahElizabeth]

I am not sure I understand the question... whose articles of faith are we discussing? I am not aware of anyone or any AOF (at least not represented here) that is against video camera use.

Years ago, we had people who disfellowshipped us for having a camcorder. Now those same people ask us for copies of the video.

:killinme

[Hoovie]

Years ago, we had people who disfellowshipped us for having a camcorder. Now those same people ask us for copies of the video.

:killinme

Well maybe they are maturing and better able to cotrol the impact the videos do or do not have.... :)

Are they asking you for copies of movies you watch?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Years ago, we had people who disfellowshipped us for having a camcorder. Now those same people ask us for copies of the video.

:killinme

Can you explain how that works? They dis-fellowshipped you and now they do what they dis-fellowshipped you over? Would you mind please explaining exactly how the disfellowship was implemented?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[foodieworks]

It was misrepresented to them as a documentary to be shown in Kazkhstan (as it was to everyone else in the movie).

Oh I get it! foreign missions outreach! Smaaaart let someone else pay for it!!! :winkgrin

[OP_Carl]

Sheltiedad,

In addition, a young holiness oneness apostolic departed our church just recently to begin her 2 year residency. As in, she's becoming an M.D.

Praise God!

[RandyWayne]

Also, my wife is a doctor.

Me? I'm just a computer geek..... <sigh> (Have a degree in programming and another in networking security)

I DO remember the church in the 80's were the only college it was assumed one would go to was bible college.

[OP_Carl]

Also, my wife is a doctor.

Me? I'm just a computer geek..... <sigh> (Have a degree in programming and another in networking security)

I DO remember the church in the 80's were the only college it was assumed one would go to was bible college.

I'm not sure your wife would assist in shattering Sheltiedad's stereotypes.

[Pragmatist]

You might be surprised to know that this forum has corrected some misconceptions I had about Pentecost even though I was raised in it my whole life. For example, I had never even heard of a Pentecostal person with a college degree prior to the 1990's, so evidently education is not discouraged as much as it used to be. I have also learned that in the NE education has always been important, even among Pentecostals. Where I grew up (OK, TX, KS) it was openly discouraged from the pulpit just about everywhere we went. I am still in shock that there are lawyers who are in the UPC (I know of at least two)... and now would not be as surprised if I heard of a doctor being Apostolic... although I have not heard of any yet. I find that people under 30 have definitely shattered this stereotype and are earning degrees left and right, and that is great!




My husband's sisters are both doctors. One is in medical school and one is in her residency. They're both oneness Pentecostal.