Women/Church/Abuse

[Trouvere]

I have a dear friend who is married to a man that has returned to drug abuse.She had to go out and put a restraining order against him.She has
been made to feel guilty defending herself in court against him.He terrorizes her and the children and breaks into the house and steals things and sells them.What does your church teach concerning such things.I would tell her to get the order.

[tamor]

Get the order. No one should live in that situation.

[Margies3]

My church would tell her to take whatever measures she has to in order to put as much distance as possible between him and her and the children. She and the children must be protected at all costs.

I had a pastor one time who explained that the Bible gives the ok for divorce only in the case of infidelity. In his way of thinking tho, infideility was not just a sexual thing. He explained it saying that when a man marries a woman (and vice versa), they make a vow to love that person above all others (except God). When they put something like drugs or alcohol above the spouse, they've committed adultery with that thing. In my mind, that's a bit of a stretch, but I could see what he was saying. Not saying I totally agreed.

HOWEVER, any spouse who would abuse the other partner in any way, has definately put something or someone ahead of their spouse (like drugs, etc. Or even putting themselves above the spouse!!)

[RandyWayne]

I think nearly ALL pastors and churches would give the same advice.... Meaning, GET OUT and seek a restraining order if needed.
Although there are those here, who based on past posts, would say such a thing is forbidden....

[tamor]

I think nearly ALL pastors and churches would give the same advice.... Meaning, GET OUT and seek a restraining order if needed.
Although there are those here, who based on past posts, would say such a thing is forbidden....


Sure there are. There are always some who would say stay no matter what.
But I wonder what they would do if they or their children were in the same situation........

[RandyWayne]

They would be the first one's being broadcast on FOX news after having chased the stalker to their home and stuck him with two blasts from their double barrel.

[tamor]

They would be the first one's being broadcast on FOX news after having chased the stalker to their home and stuck him with two blasts from their double barrel.

ROFL!! They can find some winners to show, can't they?

:hunter

[Trouvere]

okay what about the just pray about it and God will protect you crowd?
There are those out there.It was actually the advice given my friend.

[Ferd]

Oh pray for sure, and use your God given brain to get a restraining order.....and maybe a 50 cal desert eagle....ormaybenot.

but run for the high hills for sure. drugs bad.

[AmazingGrace]

Oh pray for sure, and use your God given brain to get a restraining order.....and maybe a 50 cal desert eagle....ormaybenot.

but run for the high hills for sure. drugs bad.


Ok before I get serious I have to laugh as his last words are drugs bad then you look at the sig line ROFL!

Yes I agree with what everyone else is saying GET OUT!!!

I was in that exact situation before and had a friend tell me over and over it wasnt the biblical thing to do (the getting out part) and I stuck it out... I was young and stupid! I stuck it out until a little girl selling girl scout cookies stepped out her front door to come up to my apartment and saw me being held over the window with a gun to my head and called 911... havent seen the dude since praise God... well we did end up at an easter service at the same church we had both grown up in and when the pastor realized he was there he quickly asked him to leave. And yes the pastor had also counseled me several times to get out as fast as I possibly could because it was only getting worse.

No woman deserves to be abused or anything of the sort. Old ways and old teachings can be made to make us believe we should stand in it no matter what but that is so very wrong and too many women die because of that or because they think they can fix the situation. Sorry for the rambling just hate to see others in this situation.

[Trouvere]

wow never been in that situation.I can't imagine a gun to my head by
someone who claims to love me.It had to be awful.

[AmazingGrace]

I could sit and play the blame game with myself. My pastor and dad both had a really odd feeling about this guy (childhood school and church sweetheart of mine) and it hit them both as we were walking down the altar to get married my dad asked me coming down the stairs at the church if I wanted to change my mind and my pastor whispered in my ear that I could always change my mind.... In my mind my parents had already spent tons of money on this wedding and I already had the marriage license and I couldnt change it so I would well (what did I say doesnt work? the fixing the man part right?) well I thought I could work past his little problem and we could get him help and it would all be ok. They had no visible clue nor did I about the drugs but they soon came to full view for everyone to see...God just showed my dad and pastor before I knew or was I too blind to see it?

One will never know thats why I tell anyone if they know these things in advance of marriage just stay away please!!!

[Trouvere]

What a horrible experience.I have two daughters and I would rather they
not be abused.My husband says that he will tell anyone they marry
that if they ever decide they don't want to be married to them anymore just
drop them back off.We want them.We know of a man who had a beautiful
daughter who seperated from a man that was abusive.He ended up sneaking
into her new residence and gunning her down.The man cried as he told
my husband the story.You cannot get a life back.Its a precious thing.
Children should never be put in danger regardless if the woman feels guilty she should think of them first.

[ILG]

I have a dear friend who is married to a man that has returned to drug abuse.She had to go out and put a restraining order against him.She has
been made to feel guilty defending herself in court against him.He terrorizes her and the children and breaks into the house and steals things and sells them.What does your church teach concerning such things.I would tell her to get the order.

Made to feel guilty by who? The church??

[Coonskinner]

Made to feel guilty by who? The church??

I daresay individuals have done it, ILG.

That is not a position that would represent the majority of the Church.

[RevDWW]

Perhaps the big meanest ushers at church should find the guy and lay hands on him, with the intent of dissuading him form further bothering the poor women and children.............:smack:hunter:drawguns:smack

My flesh has a hard time dealing with abusers of women and children and dogs..........

[ILG]

I daresay individuals have done it, ILG.

That is not a position that would represent the majority of the Church.

CS,

In my job as a Family Advocate at a Domestic Abuse shelter, I see this blame game happening on a daily basis. It is a crying shame and helps me to understand to an extent why the liberals hate Christianity so much. The Bible says "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, as it is written" Romans 2:24. This means that is is the people of God's fault, many times, when non-Christians blaspheme the name of God. I have seen this over and over again and I have come to loathe the pharisees that condemn the victims of crime. This is prevalent in all Christiandom.....I have many Christian clients (in the larger sense of the word). Many, many have been told they are wrong and guilty for leaving.

On the flip side, it is the nature of abuse victims to minimize what they are going through or not be forthcoming about it. So, they may not get the support they need because of that....but, I think way too often, it is the church (at large) that fails them.

[Coonskinner]

I have never met a preacher who believed a woman had to stay with a man who was physically abusing her, and I have talked to a bunch of them about the subject.

I file this one right along with the one about fat Pentecostals.

[RevDWW]

I have never met a preacher who believed a woman had to stay with a man who was physically abusing her, and I have talked to a bunch of them about the subject.

I file this one right along with the one about fat Pentecostals.


That there is funny :slaphappy:slaphappy:slaphappy:slaphappy:slaphappy

[RevDWW]

I was just thinking a few minutes ago about the scripture that talks about turning someone over to Satan for the destruction of the body that the soul might be saved......wouldn't it be better in these cases to turn the abuser over to a few Holy Ghost filled brethren for a huge attitude adjustment that the soul might find a place of repentance????? :killinme

[ILG]

I have never met a preacher who believed a woman had to stay with a man who was physically abusing her, and I have talked to a bunch of them about the subject.

I file this one right along with the one about fat Pentecostals.

In surveys done with Christian pastors, the vast majority say that they would never tell a woman in abuse to stay. On the flip side, Christian women in abusive situations who left felt they were not supported by their churches or pastors. I think there are a number of reasons for this. I think it is a very complex subject. I think the majority of Christian pastors want to support women in abusive situations, but when it comes down to the brass tacks, there is a failure to support. I think that is an unfortunate reality. I am not blaming this dynamic on a lack of trying in most people....I think most people really mean well, but just don't know what to do.

The bottom line is that I think you loathe pastors who would tell women in abusive situations to stay just as much as I do. But, as you yourself said, it does happen.

[ILG]

Also, I think that many would not tell women to stay, but would offer no practical help....no financial or even emotional support, etc. to help her get out and then possibly blame her for staying and give even less help next time it got worse.

[Pragmatist]

And there are probably others that would move her and her family in with them if necessary.

[ILG]

And there are probably others that would move her and her family in with them if necessary.

That may be true. In the shelter, we see the people that can't get help elsewhere. Also, statistics say that it takes an abused woman leaving 7 times to finally leave altogether. Many people get tired of the back and forth cycle that happens before she does leave and even parents end up not supporting sometimes. This is what I mean when I say it is very complicated with many dynamics.

I didn't mean to come off harsh in my first post about loathing phariseeical people who tell women to stay....I have run across doctrines that say that divorce is not allowed in any situation and other ideas that most here would likely disagree with that some women have to live under while their husband plays the pious religious person.....all the while beating her up behind closed doors. I think the vast, vast majority of people are opposed to this which is why domestic violence shelters exist in the first place, supported by tax dollars. But, it is amazing the religious and spiritual platitudes that some people actually use to keep women in abusive situations.

Statistics show that women go to their pastors first rather than a domestic abuse shelter. Pastors need training in this. They need to know the dynamics and what to expect. Since Christian women go to their pastors first, that means they come to us second (statistically speaking). Domestic abuse shelters are full of employees that are very liberal, generally speaking. I have seen many anti-Christian attitudes. But, as I see the women who walk in the door, I can see why people who don't know God and see the spiritual and religious abuse of these women turn from Christianity rather than to it. This is what I mean when God is blasphemed among the gentiles because of those who turn people away from God with unjust doctrines.

So, this is a call for Christians.....to be educated and know what to do and what to expect. I would rather that people got help from God's people and that we really would take care of our own....or that we could work in conjunction together, which would be a pretty good idea too. The downtrodden and poor need to see Christianity as a help to them.

[Rhoni]

Sure there are. There are always some who would say stay no matter what.
But I wonder what they would do if they or their children were in the same situation........


You are correct! You'd be surprised at the number of people who live in abusive situations and go to abusive churches...they might be some of your children.

Sadly, Rhoni

[Pragmatist]

Statistics show that women go to their pastors first rather than a domestic abuse shelter. Pastors need training in this. They need to know the dynamics and what to expect. Since Christian women go to their pastors first, that means they come to us second (statistically speaking). Domestic abuse shelters are full of employees that are very liberal, generally speaking. I have seen many anti-Christian attitudes. But, as I see the women who walk in the door, I can see why people who don't know God and see the spiritual and religious abuse of these women turn from Christianity rather than to it. This is what I mean when God is blasphemed among the gentiles because of those who turn people away from God with unjust doctrines.

So, this is a call for Christians.....to be educated and know what to do and what to expect. I would rather that people got help from God's people and that we really would take care of our own....or that we could work in conjunction together, which would be a pretty good idea too. The downtrodden and poor need to see Christianity as a help to them.

Good post. While I think the majority of pastors would want her out of the situation, they may not fully understand HOW to help.

[RevDWW]

Good post. While I think the majority of pastors would want her out of the situation, they may not fully understand HOW to help.
What do you base this on? What do you define as fully understanding?

[Trouvere]

guilt is one reason people stay....for better for worse in sickness and in health
for richer or poorer.So when the abuse starts the old.....I vowed a vow kicks in.Anyone have any comments on this?

[ILG]

guilt is one reason people stay....for better for worse in sickness and in health
for richer or poorer.So when the abuse starts the old.....I vowed a vow kicks in.Anyone have any comments on this?

He vowed a vow too....to love and protect. This is not to say that she should take her vows lightly, but if we are talking about physical safety here....she does have a responsibility to herself and her children. It is not a breaking of the vows to protect herself. Some women have strong convictions about not getting a divorce and I respect that, personally....but getting a divorce is not the same thing as separating to protect yourself, which is simply reasonable. I think there comes a point and time where it is irresponsible and wrong to NOT protect yourself and your children. Of course, many of these women know that leaving might mean retaliation....and a restraining order.....and an irreparable breach. At the shelter, we support the woman's choice no matter what it is. We do not tell women what to do because they know the situation and relationship better than anyone else. There are lots of reasons to not tell a woman what to do and control is one of them. These women are used to being controlled and we try to empower them to learn to make their own choices. In reality, supporting the woman's choice and believing her are about the best supporting things anyone can do.

For emotional abuse....I think there is greater leeway in working with the man. I think You Don't Have to Take it Anymore: Turn Your Resentful, Angry, or Emotionally Abusive Relationship into a Compassionate, Loving One by Steven Stosny is a great book and actually gives some good ideas for the abusive man to follow....rather than just saying he's a bad guy. So much of the material is simply geared towards saying he's a bad guy....get out. Many of these women want to try....and I think this is a great book for that. It does give cautionaries though for women who are involved in physical abuse to not put themselves in harm's way.

[Trouvere]

ILG exactly what kind of book is that and could you give a few exerpts?
I invited my friend to read this thread.

[ILG]

ILG exactly what kind of book is that and could you give a few exerpts?
I invited my friend to read this thread.

It is not a Christian book (I hope that is okay) but I think it has very good advice.

As far as excerpts is has parts like Why Marriage Counseling Fails, Why Treatment Made it Worse, Why Anger-Management Didn't Work and Why Abuser Groups didn't work. It talks about appreciating your core value (meaning you have worth because you ARE rather than because of what you can do for someone else). Then, the second half of the book is what is called Boot Camp for men. IF a man will do the steps, I think it would be great, but she can't do it for him. He has to have the want to.....and he might not want to. Too often, women try to fix the man rather than focusing on what they can do for themselves....which is what they really need to do. So, if he doesn't want to....she can focus on her part and that can also make a difference for her....and she needs to do this for herself too.

If this person is using drugs.....I think that has to be addressed before abuse could be. There is another good book (not Christian) called Women Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood, helping women who always seem to be attracted to men who are emotionally unavailable, like on drugs. This book teaches her to quit investing herself emotionally in him for little to no return and how begin to invest in herself, which can also have a beneficial effect whether she stays or leaves.

[Trouvere]

This book teaches her to quit investing herself emotionally in him for little to no return and how begin to invest in herself, which can also have a beneficial effect whether she stays or leaves.

These are valuable words ILG

[Pragmatist]

What do you base this on? What do you define as fully understanding?

I base it on nothing but my own speculation. Do you think you are equipped to deal with domestic abuse situations? Do you think the average pastor is, beyond telling the woman to leave for her own safety?

[RandyWayne]

I know of no pastors personally who would give advice to stay in such a situation.... However, a few my of wifes pastors have done just that in similar cases! So this isn't "I heard from someone who knows someone who has a friend who once heard that....". These are named pastors and one of the persons who received this "advice" was my wifes aunt.
Guess what.... 20 years later he (her husband -if you can still call it that) has not changed. Their kids have been totally screwed up. He is spending all her money since he sits at home on disability (depression ya understand).

This church is an AoG church and to be quite honest, I have heard of more verifiable junk like this happening in their organization -much of which seems to be focused here.

[DividedThigh]

been there had the abusive spouse, had to finally after feeling i had no other alternative for many years ,stand up for myself and my kids, and file for divorce, no other alternative, our pastor calls it spiritual adultery, which has afore been mentioned in this thread, no woman or man should stay in a situation where they or there children are being abused, any pastor who says differently just isnt living in the real world, and it is out there, done that too, dt

[Polaris]

I believe that there are various "modes" we have to go into at different times of our lives, and that the way we honor the scriptures is going to vary depending upon what mode we're in at the time. It's not that we DISobey the Lord, but simply that we have to prioritize our principles.

Yes, the scriptures say a woman is to obey her husband, but there are circumstances beyond HER control that may cause her to have to appeal to a higher principle. A woman whose husband is abusing drugs and whose home is being terrorized is in "survival mode" and doesn't have time at the moment to think of building a happy, Christian home with a devoted father as head of the house, because HE abdicated the position. That was something she could not control. Now, she has to think of her children and their safety and welfare as well as take care of herself, and the only option she has at the moment is separation. We can work out the details when the dust clears...she simply has to get out, and I believe God would expect her to.

Here's a related example. I personally know a man who grew up with a drug-abusing mother in a horrible situation. As soon as he turned 18, he moved out and moved in with his youth pastor (a single man who became the boy's "dad") AND BEGAN LEGAL PROCEEDINGS to legally take custody of his own brother, who was still a minor. He DID get custody of the boy, and they both still live at the youth pastor's house--God bless the man--he got to raise a teenager without even having a mother around to help. The older brother went to college, still submitting to his youth pastor as his father. The younger brother went to high school.

How does this square with "honour thy father and thy mother" or "obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right"? I don't think it violates it at all...there was a higher principle that had to be observed during "survival" mode, and I totally admire this man for not leaving his brother in a horrendous situation. There are ways to honour someone other than taking their abuse.

I have a dear friend who is married to a man that has returned to drug abuse.She had to go out and put a restraining order against him.She has
been made to feel guilty defending herself in court against him.He terrorizes her and the children and breaks into the house and steals things and sells them.What does your church teach concerning such things.I would tell her to get the order.

[Newman]

I have a dear friend who is married to a man that has returned to drug abuse.She had to go out and put a restraining order against him.She has
been made to feel guilty defending herself in court against him.He terrorizes her and the children and breaks into the house and steals things and sells them.What does your church teach concerning such things.I would tell her to get the order.

In my area of the country and likely many others, the mother could lose her kids to the state for "failure to protect" her kids if she doesn't get the order. Very scary possibility that many mothers don't realize. :cool:

[Theophilus]

Get some Holy Ghost filled Brothers and Sisters...not a few, and pray and wait at the home for his return.

When he arrives let him in, and then everyone start praying for him at once and shower him with Love.

He will either be healed, or think twice before returning. ;)

[Theophilus]

In my area of the country and likely many others, the mother could lose her kids to the state for "failure to protect" her kids if she doesn't get the order. Very scary possibility that many mothers don't realize. :cool:

Very true, but do we address this on the terms of man's wisdom, or God's?

I don't mean to put you on the spot. Really.

It is just that the question jumps out at me.

What will man's system yield vs. The Lord's?

[Newman]

Very true, but do we address this on the terms of man's wisdom, or God's?

I don't mean to put you on the spot. Really.

It is just that the question jumps out at me.

What will man's system yield vs. The Lord's?

Nope, not on the spot at all....

Consider the following:

1. 28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. 29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. (Ex 21:28-29)

In other words; if one has knowledge that their ox is dangerous and yet allows their ox opportunity to harm others, they stand just as condemned as the ox.

2. Abigail acted against her husband's instructions to save her household by doing that which was expected of her household under the circumstances.

3. The father of the prodical son did not let the son stay at home in sin. He had to leave or live right. He was welcomed with open arms when he came to his senses.

4. Sapphira did not stand up to her husband's wrong-doing. She perished with him. :cool:

[ILG]

Get some Holy Ghost filled Brothers and Sisters...not a few, and pray and wait at the home for his return.

When he arrives let him in, and then everyone start praying for him at once and shower him with Love.

He will either be healed, or think twice before returning. ;)

Or he will smile and then make her pay dearly after everyone leaves...

[Trouvere]

In my area of the country and likely many others, the mother could lose her kids to the state for "failure to protect" her kids if she doesn't get the order. Very scary possibility that many mothers don't realize. :cool:

Now thats an angle I had not thought about.Thanks Sister good advice.

[simplyme]

WEll I happen to think that that may not be a bad idea, having some type of law that almost "forces" a woman to leave the abusive situation as the poor children are not at fault and may even be hurt!

I KNOW of several situations in which I have always thought that the woman was plain STUPID and whatever for NOT taking care of her children FIRST., I get mad at them when I see what their weakness wrought upon the children.
In fairness a woman abused does go through so many emotions..some just cannot see past their nose., for fear.
YET a motherly instinct should "kick-in" to protect the children at all costs., having already all but lost the husband, the children are innocent victims and losing them as well, would probably be something that would throw the woman into sheer panic, distress, depression, which could only lead to even worse things! :uhoh
JMHO

[OP_Carl]

If nothing else, all this ought to serve as ample reminder that we should train our sons to control their anger, and train our daughters how to wisely choose a husband.

This is totally unrelated, but the thought has popped into my head:

Do we expect the persecuted, jailed, starved, mistreated, and even tortured Christians of China, East Timor, and the Sudan to denounce their faith, or renege on portions of their Christianity, to placate or escape their tormentors, or to rely upon Christ in their time of suffering?

I daresay this verse must be of immense help to the faithful as they endure systematic persecution, and will be all that we can cling to if we go through the tribulation:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hebrews 11, on faith
32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

God, please bless and strengthen our brothers and sisters in their hour of tribulation, when no man comes to their aid, give them the peace and joy that Stephen knew, give them the opportunity to convert their jailers in Jesus' name.

[Revelationist]

I have a dear friend who is married to a man that has returned to drug abuse.She had to go out and put a restraining order against him.She has
been made to feel guilty defending herself in court against him.He terrorizes her and the children and breaks into the house and steals things and sells them.What does your church teach concerning such things.I would tell her to get the order.

Get the order... the church still hangs on to too many of the RCC's teachings.

[Trouvere]

Get the order... the church still hangs on to too many of the RCC's teachings.

How so Revelationist?