Would you support a return to the Draft

[Praxeas]

WASHINGTON — Frequent tours for U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have stressed the all-volunteer force and made it worth considering a return to a military draft, President Bush's new war adviser said Friday.


"I think it makes sense to certainly consider it," Army Lt. Gen. Douglas Lute said in an interview with National Public Radio's "All Things Considered."



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292949,00.html

[RevDWW]

My son just turned 15 so this is not something I take lightly. But if it were in the best interest of freedom then yes.

[Praxeas]

What if it was to replenish forces in Iraq?

[TalkLady]

This thread reminded me of another song by The Byrds from the Sweetheart of the Rodeo album. The draft was being discussed and this song was playing!

The Christian Life

My friends all tell me that I should've waited
They say I'm missing a whole world of fun
But I still love them and I sing with pride
I like the Christian life

I won't lose a friend by heeding gods call
For what is a friend whod want you to fall
Others find pleasure in things I despise
I like the Christian life.

My buddies shun me since I turned to jesus
They say I'm missing a whole world of fun
I live without them and walk in the light
I like the Christian life.

I won't lose a friend by heeding God's call
For what is a friend who'd want you to fall?
Others find pleasure in things I despise

I like the Christian life
I like the Christian life.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

What if it was to replenish forces in Iraq?

Yes!

And let them clean up Syria, Lebanon, and Iran also.

[joyful]

I am not in favor of a return to the draft. I think that it's hard enough fighting a war with people who want to be there (not that they really want to be there, but they are volunteers) and are committed. I also think that if we get to the point where the draft is going to be reinstated, that there will be a push for women to be included in the draft as well. In fact, I think that if women are not included in the draft, someone will sue because they don't think it's fair that only the men have to go.

Those of you who are in favor, how would you feel if there was a change made to include young women in the draft?

[Brother Strange]

I am not in favor of a return to the draft. I think that it's hard enough fighting a war with people who want to be there (not that they really want to be there, but they are volunteers) and are committed. I also think that if we get to the point where the draft is going to be reinstated, that there will be a push for women to be included in the draft as well. In fact, I think that if women are not included in the draft, someone will sue because they don't think it's fair that only the men have to go.

Those of you who are in favor, how would you feel if there was a change made to include young women in the draft?

Now that the women have for so long pushed, pushed, pushed, campaigned for, sought after, insisted upon every equality with the men, to which I have no objection, then I say, "Shoulder arms ol' girl, we are going to war and do not lag behind."

[TK Burk]

I am new here, so I hope my question is taken without offense: where does Jesus give a Christian the approval to fight against or kill an enemy?

[Newman]

Now that the women have for so long pushed, pushed, pushed, campaigned for, sought after, insisted upon every equality with the men, to which I have no objection, then I say, "Shoulder arms ol' girl, we are going to war and do not lag behind."

I have a 19 year old son and some pretty entrenched opinions and emotional responses. :sing

1. NO WAY should we be drafting young men for a prolonged war that many in the country don't want and that we are not prepared to win once and for all.

2. NO WAY should women be drafted for combat. They are a liability on the battlefield, physically and emotionally. Women's bodies were designed for bringing forth life not fighting wars. Their lack of upperbody strength and inability to throw a grenade far enough puts everybody at risk. Furthermore, Women's emotions enable nurturing but are not so great for combat.

The presence of women in these places also destroys the sanctity of the families back home. Good men stray under the strain of uncertainty and the daily proximity of women. It has been said that there is no such thing as an ugly woman on a ship over time.

And in fact; one out of 10 women are removed from ships and/or the battlefield due to pregnancy.

And for the record; one can advocate for the right of women to be treated the same as men where they are EQUIPPED to handle it; without sending them into combat to the detriment of ALL.

This is a hit and run post! :driving

[Digging4Truth]

There is no reason that I would ever be for the draft.

I would neither be behind my children being involved in war.

[Pressing-On]

This is the best way to view the draft, IMO.

Back in the days of World War II, the military were drafting young men who were, by and large, patriotic Americans, people who felt that they had a duty to protect this country from its enemies.

Today, a military draft would bring in large numbers of people who have been systematically "educated" to believe the worst about this country or, at best, to be non-judgmental about the differences between American society and its enemies.

The fact that we could use a larger army of the kinds of people who have already volunteered to put their lives on the line does not mean that we can get it by adding warm bodies fresh from our politically correct schools and colleges, where standards and self-discipline are greatly lacking.

Just getting such people used to the idea of duty and discipline could be a major drain on the military, not to mention a plague of lawsuits from groups like the American Civil Liberties Union if the little darlings were not handled with kid gloves.

More than that, so many American institutions, from the Congress to the courts, have degenerated into irresponsible self-indulgence that the military is one of the very few institutions left with a sense of purpose for which it is prepared to make sacrifices.

We dare not destroy that institution, or undermine its morale, by pouring into it very different kinds of people, who will be like sand poured into the gears of machinery.

This is not to say that there are no civilians who would be valuable additions to the military. Such people need not be drafted. Our colleges are blocking such people from taking R.O.T.C. by not allowing R.O.T.C. programs or military recruiters on campus in the first place.

Anti-military academics think they have a right to over-ride their students' rights to reach their own conclusions and make their own decisions, or even to hear a different viewpoint about the military.

Patriotic and educated young Americans who want to serve in the military are available. We need to stop academia from sabotaging national defense by blocking them from R.O.T.C. and from even hearing what military representatives have to say.

-Thomas Sowell-

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=a_military_draft&ns=ThomasSowell&dt=08/01/2006&page=full&comments=true

[BrotherEastman]

To draft or not to draft? Would any of you be willing to give your only child for a war that you disagree with? If it were a war where our countries freedom was threatened, then I might, but seeing how that our wars are being fought overseas to police a different nation, not hardly. Our soldiers that came back from Vietnam were scrutinized, verbally abused, had tomatoes (among other things) thrown at them, all for a country who's own people hated them and were ungrateful for what these soldiers did in sacrificing thier own freedom? Why in the world would I want to support the draft?

[Praxeas]

Pressing on, I can agree. However I think many Americans just do NOT see dying in Iraq....or having a limb blown off....is a matter of fighting for OUR country. Rather it seems more like we are fighting for someone elses country and or someone elses monetary venture.

The Iraqis are divided into three segments. Two of them kill each other and when they have the time, they try to kill us. I don't think Americans see the value in dying for that cause, particularly when there seems to be no resolution of the matter and particularly when we have a growing threat of China both militarily and economically.

Our priorities are seriously messed up. We should have devoted our resources to Afghanistan, setting up a stable government and rooting out Al Queda and the Taliban. Now we got Iran too trying to take a piece of Iraq, developing nukes, funneling high tech weapons into Syria and Lebannon and threating Israel....our one real ally in the region.

We are stretched out way way too thin. This is a generals night mare. If they are not blind they are looking at China and North Korea and Iran, while we are occupied with Iraq and Afghanistan, and they are having sleepless nights over it.

They also worry about suitcase nukes and dirty nukes coming into our country, but it's NOT from Iraq they will be coming. And they might come by crossing the border or by shipping containers, but our borders are porous and our ports are under manned and the technology is limited available.

I live in a deep water port area....nobody hears of us or gives a hoot. If I were a terrorist and I wanted to sneak something in like that, I'd avoid Los Angeles and come this way....

Seriously I have no confidence in our government, democrat or replublican when I see what is happening. A draft is pointless and you are right that most of those we draft will be of the lowest caliber simply because they don't want to be there. We would need to do serious security checks on them too before hand.

It's nuts. Iraq, I think after toppling Saddam we should have went to his particular Islamic sect Shiites and told them "Look, we toppled Saddam bt we want to keep you guys in power. We are willing to do whatever you want to make a Shiite government and army in control of Iraq, except for the kurds. They need to be given some self government. We have nothing personal against your people, it was just Saddam. Then sell them arms and help re-train their army. The Sunni are Iranian backed because Iran is mostly Sunni as is Syria and Lebannon. As much as the Saudis distrusted Saddam they equally distrust the Iranians. The Saudis would have helped too. We would announce to the world that we would be out of there very quickly.

But now Iraq is a quagmire. We never had enough troops to begin the post war process. We never closed the borders. And now GB is pulling out.

The draft is to little, too late.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

If we do not resupport the troops with fresh troops, those in the field are hindered.

They are already tired, and some are forced to take 2nd or 3rd tours of duty.

And the American People are not against war on Terrorism. The Left Media has propagated that to be a fact when it is not true. There are pockets of resistance and those need more troops and let them win the job they are there for.

Hillary herself said we will be in Iraq in her term if she is elected.

[Sherri]

I don't know how I feel actually. It would be a lot easier to answer this if I didn't have a son who is almost nineteen. When I got his Selective Service number in the mail, I just wanted to cry.

[berkeley]

I don't know how I feel actually. It would be a lot easier to answer this if I didn't have a son who is almost nineteen. When I got his Selective Service number in the mail, I just wanted to cry.

I believe that our military should only be on a voluntary basis. I would volunteer if I could. lol..

When I first got my SS card in the mail, I couldn't wait for my 26th birthday.. lol

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I don't know how I feel actually. It would be a lot easier to answer this if I didn't have a son who is almost nineteen. When I got his Selective Service number in the mail, I just wanted to cry.

Not every soldier gets sent to the trenches.

Some get stateside jobs in air conditioning.

[chosenbyone]

The sad reality that the veterans faced after they have sacrificed so much for this "war" in Iraq should have all citizens outraged! Haven't we seen the news reports of the conditions that wounded soldiers faced when they were seeking care at Walter Reid Medical Center? This current administration has talked a good talk, but their actions have told us that they don't care about those young men and women. It took the media to break a story of the conditions there at Walter Reid before the government stepped in with their spin to divert the blame. This administration knew over three years before the media got involved of the conditions of Walter Reid and yet they get off the hook by having a scapegoat take the fall.

Many soldiers have come back from Iraq in need of physiological and medical help and one would have thought that they would get the best treatment available. Instead, ones that have demonstrated Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and other maladies have been processed out of the military with no help available.

The attached link was an article I read this evening and anyone who would contemplate drafting young people into service should know what their children would face if they were lucky enough to survive.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/07/shelters_take_many_vets_of_iraq_afghan_wars/?page=1

[Praxeas]

If we do not resupport the troops with fresh troops, those in the field are hindered.

They are already tired, and some are forced to take 2nd or 3rd tours of duty.

And the American People are not against war on Terrorism. The Left Media has propagated that to be a fact when it is not true. There are pockets of resistance and those need more troops and let them win the job they are there for.

Hillary herself said we will be in Iraq in her term if she is elected.
Americans don't all equate the war on terror with what we started and ended up stuck in down in Iraq. Terrorism is not a nation. However there are nations that support terrorism and long before I would think of Iraq and Saddam I would think of Iran and Syria among others. We did not go into Iraq because of "war on terror".

Terrorism is like fighting street gangs...you don't bomb the entire city, you don't kill the mayer...you have to find them where they are at. You have to use special units and even covert ops. We need to bring our stretched out troops home, not send fresh kids over to hell to be killed and maimed. What is happening is not a war on terror...it's more like "stick our armies here...watch them continue to roll in from outside iraq, watch them kill each other, try not to get in the way"

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Prax,

I think we really have no business in Iraq. Same as when we invaded from Kuwait, they tied the military hands, or Stormin Norman would have beheaded Saddam and his regime. The Iraq problem was addressed by Sir Winston Churchill in 1925 and for over 75 yrs the British have not solved it.

As long as one single solitary American Soldier is on the ground, we need to do what ever is needed to give them support. And if I was near Dallas (I think it was Big D), I would go down daily and shake hands like some other folks do greeting the soldiers coming home.

I do not think we needed to help Europeans as long as we did either...... an entirely different thread.

[Praxeas]

I think having our troops there, spending the money and arms is an economic/military blunder with Iran and China looming very very soon on the horizen

[Pressing-On]

We have someone close to us that works at Ft. Irwin in California. He said that 85% of the returning soldiers want to go back and that they say they are doing a great job but the media won't relay it to the people.

My husband's nephew has recently been deployed to Iraq. He's Special Ops in the Marines.

I asked him why he joined. He said, "Someone has to do it."

I asked him about the news and what they are saying. He said, "The news media is a soldiers worst enemy."

I'll listen to what the soldiers have to say over the media any day.

There will be wars and rumors of wars......

Don't think we can avoid it.

A draft only brings in people who do not want to be there, that don't feel the cause. Voluntary is the only way to go.

[TK Burk]

I am new here, so I hope my question is taken without offense: where does Jesus give a Christian the approval to fight against or kill an enemy?

.::BUMP::. :bedtime

This is my forth post and already I'm being ignored! :sos I'm really off to a bad start here....

Anybody want to respond? :telephone

[Brother Strange]

I have a 19 year old son and some pretty entrenched opinions and emotional responses. :sing

1. NO WAY should we be drafting young men for a prolonged war that many in the country don't want and that we are not prepared to win once and for all.

2. NO WAY should women be drafted for combat. They are a liability on the battlefield, physically and emotionally. Women's bodies were designed for bringing forth life not fighting wars. Their lack of upperbody strength and inability to throw a grenade far enough puts everybody at risk. Furthermore, Women's emotions enable nurturing but are not so great for combat.

The presence of women in these places also destroys the sanctity of the families back home. Good men stray under the strain of uncertainty and the daily proximity of women. It has been said that there is no such thing as an ugly woman on a ship over time.

And in fact; one out of 10 women are removed from ships and/or the battlefield due to pregnancy.

And for the record; one can advocate for the right of women to be treated the same as men where they are EQUIPPED to handle it; without sending them into combat to the detriment of ALL.

This is a hit and run post! :driving

Sister,

All of this I would normally agree with. The women's movement have removed themselves from such considerations. Politically, the women want their cake and eat it too? That is kind of impossible, don't you think? You will never get the woman's movement to acknowledge that they are not equipped to do all that a man can do.

Since when do you think that the women's movement care anything about sanctity of the family? Have they recently changed their minds? Not that I am aware of. As far as pregnancy is concerned, I am sure that you are aware of the women's movement love for birth control outside of marriage, including abortion. No problem! Yes, sex outside of marriage is very much encouraged.

Also, when did the women's movement come to care too much about women's emotions and how they are emotionally any different than men or that their bodies were formed to bring forth life. Not lately as far as I know.

I am well of the moral implications and the possiblity of destroyed lives both physically and emotionally both for men and for women. Don't forget, I've been there and have seen the most grusesome consequences, not knowing whether I would live to tell about it.

PERSONALLY, I am very much against women being in the military AT ALL. They are thrown together with men all around the world. The outcome of all of this is generally not good in any possible way. I am against them being in such feminine positions as clerk typist back in Company headquarters, well behind enemy contact. Personally, I am against them being on ships or in contact with the male in any aspect of the military. War and all military service should be singular to the male gender.

But politically speaking, the reality is much different. Since the woman has demanded equality at the ballot box, my message to her is, "Shoulder arms ol' girl and keep cadence and your powder dry. We are going to war."

I am also deathly against these teaser wars that we've had since WW II. Either declare war as a matter of law, by Congress, ratified by the President and win it unconditionally without armistice or do not go to war at all. But, if we do declare war as a matter of law, all must be subject to it by draft. This is my opinion, though a bit skewed by political implications.

Meanwhile be assured, I hate to see a woman in the military, neither in the Pentagon or in a combat zone. It is not her place. But politically, we have another problem in the military, that being that the homosexual front is now demanding equal rights and protection under the law as in the military and in the combat zone. Hillary, like the other three top Democrat contenders, who are strong women's rights advocates are determined to give them all that they are asking for.

Newman, it is a sick world. If you have all the answers, I would love to hear them. Considerations must reach far beyond the emotional considerations of your 19 year old son.

[Brother Strange]

.::BUMP::. :bedtime

This is my forth post and already I'm being ignored! :sos I'm really off to a bad start here....

Anybody want to respond? :telephone

You are not being ignored.

I am sure everyone responded that found where Jesus gave that approval. How many responded?

[Brother Strange]

We have someone close to us that works at Ft. Irwin in California. He said that 85% of the returning soldiers want to go back and that they say they are doing a great job but the media won't relay it to the people.

My husband's nephew has recently been deployed to Iraq. He's Special Ops in the Marines.

I asked him why he joined. He said, "Someone has to do it."

I asked him about the news and what they are saying. He said, "The news media is a soldiers worst enemy."

I'll listen to what the soldiers have to say over the media any day.

There will be wars and rumors of wars......

Don't think we can avoid it.

A draft only brings in people who do not want to be there, that don't feel the cause. Voluntary is the only way to go.

This post is exactly on the mark. I have returning Marine friends that are saying the same thing, exactly.

[Sister Alvear]

I have a 19 year old son and some pretty entrenched opinions and emotional responses. :sing

1. NO WAY should we be drafting young men for a prolonged war that many in the country don't want and that we are not prepared to win once and for all.

2. NO WAY should women be drafted for combat. They are a liability on the battlefield, physically and emotionally. Women's bodies were designed for bringing forth life not fighting wars. Their lack of upperbody strength and inability to throw a grenade far enough puts everybody at risk. Furthermore, Women's emotions enable nurturing but are not so great for combat.

The presence of women in these places also destroys the sanctity of the families back home. Good men stray under the strain of uncertainty and the daily proximity of women. It has been said that there is no such thing as an ugly woman on a ship over time.

And in fact; one out of 10 women are removed from ships and/or the battlefield due to pregnancy.

And for the record; one can advocate for the right of women to be treated the same as men where they are EQUIPPED to handle it; without sending them into combat to the detriment of ALL.

This is a hit and run post! :driving


I agree with you...Sorry my opinion differs with most on war and politics...but just one of those things...
Do we kill our spiritual brother just because he is from another country?

[chosenbyone]

.::BUMP::. :bedtime

This is my forth post and already I'm being ignored! :sos I'm really off to a bad start here....

Anybody want to respond? :telephone

You're doing just fine...

Just because no one responded doens't take away from your contribution. Many posts are ignored and it has no reflection on the poster, so keep on posting.:nod

By thy way, there wasn't any record of where Jesus endorsed/sanctioned the killing of another. As you already knew, Jesus promoted peace throughout His ministry.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God. Matthew 5:9 NIV

[Newman]

Considerations must reach far beyond the emotional considerations of your 19 year old son.

Brother Strange- If I had the time; this would be an interesting topic as far as women in the military.

However, it is unlikely that I will ever be able to put logic over emotion when it comes to my 19 year old son fighting in a teaser war. Estrogen and emotion rule. ;)

Got to run! :airplane

[Barb]

I have a 19 year old son and some pretty entrenched opinions and emotional responses. :sing

1. NO WAY should we be drafting young men for a prolonged war that many in the country don't want and that we are not prepared to win once and for all.

2. NO WAY should women be drafted for combat. They are a liability on the battlefield, physically and emotionally. Women's bodies were designed for bringing forth life not fighting wars. Their lack of upperbody strength and inability to throw a grenade far enough puts everybody at risk. Furthermore, Women's emotions enable nurturing but are not so great for combat.

The presence of women in these places also destroys the sanctity of the families back home. Good men stray under the strain of uncertainty and the daily proximity of women. It has been said that there is no such thing as an ugly woman on a ship over time.

And in fact; one out of 10 women are removed from ships and/or the battlefield due to pregnancy.

And for the record; one can advocate for the right of women to be treated the same as men where they are EQUIPPED to handle it; without sending them into combat to the detriment of ALL.

This is a hit and run post! :driving

There is a 20 + young woman in my home state who is being sent home from Iraq as I write minus a foot because of a grenade. :angelsad

[Sister Alvear]

While we fight in all these places the enemy is fastly taking over the homefront...they love for us to send or youth away...

[Brother Strange]

I agree with you...Sorry my opinion differs with most on war and politics...but just one of those things...
Do we kill our spiritual brother just because he is from another country?



...just because he is from ANOTHER COUNTRY?????????????

I don't remember us killing any Canadians lately. I don't remember us killing very many Brazillians latetly either.

In fact, I don't EVER remember killing another JUST BECAUSE he is from ANOTHER country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are times that both JUSTICE and RIGHTEOUSNESS and yes, sometimes even CHARITY demand WAR and that has NOTHING to do with just because they are from ANOTHER country.

[Brother Strange]

While we fight in all these places the enemy is fastly taking over the homefront...they love for us to send or youth away...

I do not see that it matters what the enemy loves. What does matter is that there are times that it is absolutley neccessary to send our youth away to war. Thank God we did not send our old men to Germany or to the Pacific in WW II. Neither did we attack the Japanese, Germans or the Italians JUST BECAUSE they were from ANOTHER country.

Justice, righteousness and even CHARITY demanded that we send our youth to war in those days.

[TK Burk]

You are not being ignored.

I am sure everyone responded that found where Jesus gave that approval. How many responded?

HA! Yes! :killinme

Jesus never said His disciples would be known by their fighting one another, but instead by their love one for another. It is hard to give someone a Christian hug with a M-16 slung around your neck. :nah

Since there is no scripture supporting a Christian fighting against or killing an enemy, how could a Christian ever partake in a draft or even what a draft represents?

[Sister Alvear]

I am sorry but I do not believe that we as Christians should go to war...Maybe I am wrong and I beg your forgiveness but I prayed for none of my sons to serve any man´s army...ONLY the LORD`S ARMY.

[Rico]

I don't know how I feel about this issue. On the one hand, I know it is of utmost importance that we win this war on terrorism. On the other hand, I have my son, who is 15, who may be affected by a reinstatement of the draft.

[Praxeas]

I do not see that it matters what the enemy loves. What does matter is that there are times that it is absolutley neccessary to send our youth away to war. Thank God we did not send our old men to Germany or to the Pacific in WW II. Neither did we attack the Japanese, Germans or the Italians JUST BECAUSE they were from ANOTHER country.

Justice, righteousness and even CHARITY demanded that we send our youth to war in those days.
There aren't too many that would say our involvement in WW2 was was wrong, but Iraq is a different matter. There were even a large number that supported Afghanistan, but not Iraq

[Brother Strange]

There aren't too many that would say our involvement in WW2 was was wrong, but Iraq is a different matter. There were even a large number that supported Afghanistan, but not Iraq

American are a pretty just people overall, having a sense of righteousnes in regards to these matters, by in large.

Our involvement in WWII was just. I do not feel that our involvment in Iraq is just. I was against it from the beginning as I am against it now. I think we were led off into an unjust war upon a people that will not change in this millineum or the next as they have not changed in the millineums past. Iraq did not attack us. Sadaam Hussein, though a mad criminal was the dictator that the people of Iraq installed as their leader. We had no business interferring with their government. Afganistan is a different story. They attacked us on 9-11. It was a just war to go after them...namely Obama though we have not found him yet.

Having said that, I do not think we should ever go to war without a declaration of war by the Congress and ratified by the President...except in very short emergency scrimishes on rare and completely understandable occasions. Case in point: Grenada.

[Brother Strange]

HA! Yes! :killinme

Jesus never said His disciples would be known by their fighting one another, but instead by their love one for another. It is hard to give someone a Christian hug with a M-16 slung around your neck. :nah

Since there is no scripture supporting a Christian fighting against or killing an enemy, how could a Christian ever partake in a draft or even what a draft represents?

You can love your enemy, asking God to show him the light while bearing the sword against his body, praying for his soul at the same time. I already did. would do it again if callled upon.

He that is not willing to bear the sword to protect home and harth deserves the tyrant that wouild take both away from him. He that will not protect wyfe and offspring from an invading horde by the sword, deserves neither the companion or the offspring of the biological function.

God is not against war. God is ALL FOR WAR when it is just war.

[Brother Strange]

I am sorry but I do not believe that we as Christians should go to war...Maybe I am wrong and I beg your forgiveness but I prayed for none of my sons to serve any man´s army...ONLY the LORD`S ARMY.

Sister,

You probably do not appreciate the river of blood that has given you the great, great freedoms that you have, having never been born under the fear, terror and slavery of the tyrrant. You may not appreciate the many thousands of dead who paid the last measure of devotion for your freedom. Maybe your heart does not bleed for the many bereaved loved ones who will go to their graves bearing the burden of their grief from the ultimate sacrifice of love...yes, the love of YOUR freedom. You may not. But, be assured, if no one would have loved you enough to pay the full measure of sacrifice and devotion for you, your life would be much different today.

So, if you think that the Army of the US is not the Lord's army, calling it "man's army," and are not willing to make the same sacrifice for others that has been freely and willingly made for you, I wonder how long it will be before your head and the head of your loved ones are chopped off at the shoulders simply because you are a Christian? Tell me, how long will it take?

I am grieved that you see this the way that you do, but rest assured from someone who knows what he is talking about but Johnny does not go marching off to war to fight against others just because they are from another country.

[Brother Strange]

Brother Strange- If I had the time; this would be an interesting topic as far as women in the military.

However, it is unlikely that I will ever be able to put logic over emotion when it comes to my 19 year old son fighting in a teaser war. Estrogen and emotion rule. ;)

Got to run! :airplane

LOL.... :killinme :killinme

Sister, you need to see about that 19 year old boy's estrogen and emotions. :killinme

btw, it would be an interesting discussion indeed, knowing you.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Newman View Post
Brother Strange- If I had the time; this would be an interesting topic as far as women in the military.

However, it is unlikely that I will ever be able to put logic over emotion when it comes to my 19 year old son fighting in a teaser war. Estrogen and emotion rule.

Got to run!

Ahhhhhhhhhh.. but which one is logic and which one is emotion?

"Patriotism" carries it's own potent tonic of emotions as well...

[ILuvFPC]

Sister,

You probably do not appreciate the river of blood that has given you the great, great freedoms that you have, having never been born under the fear, terror and slavery of the tyrrant. You may not appreciate the many thousands of dead who paid the last measure of devotion for your freedom. Maybe your heart does not bleed for the many bereaved loved ones who will go to their graves bearing the burden of their grief from the ultimate sacrifice of love...yes, the love of YOUR freedom. You may not. But, be assured, if no one would have loved you enough to pay the full measure of sacrifice and devotion for you, your life would be much different today.

So, if you think that the Army of the US is not the Lord's army, calling it "man's army," and are not willing to make the same sacrifice for others that has been freely and willingly made for you, I wonder how long it will be before your head and the head of your loved ones are chopped off at the shoulders simply because you are a Christian? Tell me, how long will it take?

I am grieved that you see this the way that you do, but rest assured from someone who knows what he is talking about but Johnny does not go marching off to war to fight against others just because they are from another country.

So your saying that the US Army is God's Army??? So its God's army over there in Iraq fighting what many believe to be an unjust war??? I was under the impression that God's army were those who were filled with His Spirit fighting the good fight of faith bringing souls to Christ...

[Rico]

So your saying that the US Army is God's Army??? So its God's army over there in Iraq fighting what many believe to be an unjust war??? I was under the impression that God's army were those who were filled with His Spirit fighting the good fight of faith bringing souls to Christ...


They are just another Division of God's army. Let's not get carried away here. :D

[TK Burk]

You can love your enemy, asking God to show him the light while bearing the sword against his body, praying for his soul at the same time. I already did. would do it again if callled upon.

He that is not willing to bear the sword to protect home and harth deserves the tyrant that wouild take both away from him. He that will not protect wyfe and offspring from an invading horde by the sword, deserves neither the companion or the offspring of the biological function.

God is not against war. God is ALL FOR WAR when it is just war.

Where does Jesus say this?

[Rico]

Where does Jesus say this?

Have you never read where God commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child among their enemies?

[TK Burk]

Have you never read where God commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child among their enemies?

Ahhhh, yes, I forgot THAT one. :hypercoffee

[Rico]

Ahhhh, yes, I forgot THAT one. :hypercoffee

Same God, right?

[TK Burk]

Brother Strange said that God is for war when it is "just." Who determines "just"? When are we called to be the jude and executioner? I thought Jesus said He would avenge?

(Romans 12:19) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

[Rico]

Brother Strange said that God is for war when it is "just." Who determines "just"? When are we called to be the jude and executioner? I thought Jesus said He would avenge?

(Romans 12:19) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

He was talking about personal disputes, not national policy.

[Brother Strange]

Brother Strange said that God is for war when it is "just." Who determines "just"? When are we called to be the jude and executioner? I thought Jesus said He would avenge?

(Romans 12:19) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Going to war to take revenge or for vengeance is NOT a just war.

[TK Burk]

Same God, right?

Yes sir! So is eye for an eye the policy for the New Covenant Church?

[TK Burk]

He was talking about personal disputes, not national policy.


If you adjoin yourself with a national policy you make it personal. :nah

[Rico]

If you adjoin yourself with a national policy you make it personal. :nah

If God wants to fight the spread of Islam using the American Army then I am all for it!

[Rico]

Yes sir! So is eye for an eye the policy for the New Covenant Church?

These weren't people that attacked the Israelites. These were the people God just told them to destroy because they were in the way of His plans. He's God. He can do stuff like that.

[TK Burk]

If God wants to fight the spread of Islam using the American Army then I am all for it!

But where does Jesus say that you should be?

[TK Burk]

These weren't people that attacked the Israelites. These were the people God just told them to destroy because they were in the way of His plans. He's God. He can do stuff like that.

So God can kill innocent people if they are in His way?

So God can murder, but we can't...unless it is in the national interest? Is that what you are saying? Where do you get that in your Bible?

[Rico]

So God can kill innocent people if they are in His way?

So God can murder, but we can't...unless it is in the national interest? Is that what you are saying? Where do you get that in your Bible?

He's God. He can do whatever He wants. Whether you believe it, or care to admit it, God ordered the deaths of untold thousands, maybe more, people, so He could establish Israel as a nation. Since you agree that the God of the NT is the same God of the OT, then we are obviously talking about Jesus.

[Sister Alvear]

I cannot believe God wants us killing each other. There must be a higher road for God´s people.

[Rico]

I cannot believe God wants us killing each other. There must be a higher road for God´s people.



Sister Alvear, there is a big difference in killing someone and murdering someone.

[TK Burk]

He's God. He can do whatever He wants. Whether you believe it, or care to admit it, God ordered the deaths of untold thousands, maybe more, people, so He could establish Israel as a nation. Since you agree that the God of the NT is the same God of the OT, then we are obviously talking about Jesus.

Where does it say that God can do whatever He wants? This is totally untrue. Do you not realize that the Old Testament is a type and shadow of what Jesus ushered in through His New Covenant? The Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. The Old Testament Laws were more clearly defined after Jesus taught them with the authority of the Law Giver. He showed that He desired mercy instead of sacrifice. He chose love to be His defining attribute.

Now, where exactly does Jesus or His apostles teach that it is acceptable for Christians to go to war? Can you name where the early church fought against their oppressors? The Jews fought, but not the Christians. They were known for not taking up arms. So where does the Bible say that this was to change?

Isn't our faith supposed to come by hearing the Word? So where are the scriptures from which you derive your faith on this?

[TK Burk]

I cannot believe God wants us killing each other. There must be a higher road for God´s people.

AMEN, Sister! :clap

[TK Burk]

So can anyone list the scriptures that support the New Covenant Church going to war, or for killing their enemy? :bumpsign

[Brother Strange]

I cannot believe God wants us killing each other. There must be a higher road for God´s people.

Sister,

1. God does not WANT us killing each other!

2. God does not WANT us killing anyone just because they are from another country.

I don't know of any human being in the world that would possibly THINK that God WANTS us killing each other just for the sake of KILLING each other. Only a heathern God would be so cruel as to WANT us killing each other just for the pure sake of KILLING. :banghead

[Brother Strange]

So can anyone list the scriptures that support the New Covenant Church going to war, or for killing their enemy? :bumpsign

No need bumping it.

Everyone with two brain cells know that it is not the business of the New Covenant Church to go to natural war with other nations. That business is left up to human governments. Hopefully, those governments will be led by the rightesouness of the cause to war.

New Covenant Church going to war? :begging

[DividedThigh]

the fact is that those of us who act like war is never right are doomed to eventually be stomped under the boot of the oppressor, ignoring the threat of islamo fascism, and other tyrants will only prolong the inevitability for us to be forced to defend ourselves, i am not for killing anyone, but defending my country and the freedom it gives, well that is a different matter. You can debate the ethics of war all you want, but someone eventually has to fight to defend freedom and liberty, my son is 21, and my daughters 19 and 18, i dont want them to go, but if they choose to i support them, my brother just returned from iraq, he said people dont realize the good the men and women of our armed services are doing, dt:hypercoffee

[Brother Strange]

the fact is that those of us who act like war is never right are doomed to eventually be stomped under the boot of the oppressor, ignoring the threat of islamo fascism, and other tyrants will only prolong the inevitability for us to be forced to defend ourselves, i am not for killing anyone, but defending my country and the freedom it gives, well that is a different matter. You can debate the ethics of war all you want, but someone eventually has to fight to defend freedom and liberty, my son is 21, and my daughters 19 and 18, i dont want them to go, but if they choose to i support them, my brother just returned from iraq, he said people dont realize the good the men and women of our armed services are doing, dt:hypercoffee

Amen, D.T.

But I guess I am a little more sensitive than most since I am a war vet, fully prepared to give my life for what I thought at the time was a just cause.

The history of my family is written in blood given to provide what so many ungratefuls have in common with me, that never cost them anything. The war history of my family in America goes back to the Revolutionary war when Isham Strange served in the Army formed by Washington, authorized by the Continental Congress. Though he lived some others of my relatives were not so fortunate. I came close to not returning home to my family.

Though they CLAIM to be a christian, the ungratefuls and the unwilling do not deserve the bountiful fruits of the lives sacrificed to provide them what they enjoy today in America.

[TK Burk]

No need bumping it.

Everyone with two brain cells know that it is not the business of the New Covenant Church to go to natural war with other nations. That business is left up to human governments. Hopefully, those governments will be led by the rightesouness of the cause to war.

New Covenant Church going to war? :begging

Brother Strange, how can you say the above and then amen DT? All I asked for was the Bible passages that say Jesus taught it is acceptable for a Christian to go to war or kill their enemey. You say it is ok, then you say it is not, then you say that it is?? Which is it? Does Jesus say it is ok for Christians to go to war and kill their enemies, or does He say it is not ok?

[Felicity]

I think there's a time and place for the draft.

[TK Burk]

the fact is that those of us who act like war is never right are doomed to eventually be stomped under the boot of the oppressor, ignoring the threat of islamo fascism, and other tyrants will only prolong the inevitability for us to be forced to defend ourselves, i am not for killing anyone, but defending my country and the freedom it gives, well that is a different matter. You can debate the ethics of war all you want, but someone eventually has to fight to defend freedom and liberty, my son is 21, and my daughters 19 and 18, i dont want them to go, but if they choose to i support them, my brother just returned from iraq, he said people dont realize the good the men and women of our armed services are doing, dt:hypercoffee

No offence, but this is just your opinion. What is Jesus'? Where does He say He agrees with you? As Christians that should be our REAL concern.

[DividedThigh]

No offence, but this is just your opinion. What is Jesus'? Where does He say He agrees with you? As Christians that should be our REAL concern.

you are right it is my opinion, you can think what you want, that is your right, but my family has fought and bled in all the wars this country has been involved in since it is beginning, to give you that right. You ask where is Jesus he lives in my heart and permeates all that i am, I am what i am because he is, dt:hypercoffee

[Brother Strange]

Brother Strange, how can you say the above and then amen DT? All I asked for was the Bible passages that say Jesus taught it is acceptable for a Christian to go to war or kill their enemey. You say it is ok, then you say it is not, then you say that it is?? Which is it? Does Jesus say it is ok for Christians to go to war and kill their enemies, or does He say it is not ok?

You are not listening.

I already told you that Jesus never gave a command for his New Covenant Church to go to war.

You can read the gospels including Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but you will never find a "go to war" command anywhere there. Nor will you find it "explicitly" stated "thou mayest go to war anytime you hear the war drums beating."

I already told you that it just simply is not there. What more can I say?

[Esther]

Where does it say that God can do whatever He wants? This is totally untrue. Do you not realize that the Old Testament is a type and shadow of what Jesus ushered in through His New Covenant? The Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. The Old Testament Laws were more clearly defined after Jesus taught them with the authority of the Law Giver. He showed that He desired mercy instead of sacrifice. He chose love to be His defining attribute.

Now, where exactly does Jesus or His apostles teach that it is acceptable for Christians to go to war? Can you name where the early church fought against their oppressors? The Jews fought, but not the Christians. They were known for not taking up arms. So where does the Bible say that this was to change?

Isn't our faith supposed to come by hearing the Word? So where are the scriptures from which you derive your faith on this?

God has principals that I don't think He changes.

He supported the Israelites in battle. IF He was totally against war then why would He have suported them and given them victory.

I don't believe for a moment He is for all the wars we have, but I think there are some He may be favoring.

[DividedThigh]

God has principals that I don't think He changes.

He supported the Israelites in battle. IF He was totally against war then why would He have suported them and given them victory.

I don't believe for a moment He is for all the wars we have, but I think there are some He may be favoring.

amen sis, god is sovereign he is in control, even when we dont understand or agree, dt:hypercoffee

[TK Burk]

You are not listening.

I already told you that Jesus never gave a command for his New Covenant Church to go to war.

You can read the gospels including Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but you will never find a "go to war" command anywhere there. Nor will you find it "explicitly" stated "thou mayest go to war anytime you hear the war drums beating."

I already told you that it just simply is not there. What more can I say?

Brother Strange, thank you for your reply. No, I am listening very well...and answers such as yours are very clear!

[Felicity]

We're all involved in a war - spiritually speaking.

Is Armageddon not going to be the battle of all battles?

God is not against war per se.

[TK Burk]

you are right it is my opinion, you can think what you want, that is your right, but my family has fought and bled in all the wars this country has been involved in since it is beginning, to give you that right. You ask where is Jesus he lives in my heart and permeates all that i am, I am what i am because he is, dt:hypercoffee

As an American and as a human being I wholly support your right to have your own opinion. But if we are to be Christlike, then our opinions should soley be founded on God's Word. That is my point. Thanks for your reply. No offence intended.

[Esther]

We're all involved in a war - spiritually speaking.

Is Armageddon not going to be the battle of all battles?

God is not against war per se.

I was thinking of that upcoming battle as well.

[DividedThigh]

As an American and as a human being I wholly support your right to have your own opinion. But if we are to be Christlike, then our opinions should soley be founded on God's Word. That is my point. Thanks for your reply. No offence intended.

no problem l and f , my entire life is built on his word, including all my beliefs and convictions, god bless you, no offense taken, dt:hypercoffee

[Brother Strange]

We're all involved in a war - spiritually speaking.

Is Armageddon not going to be the battle of all battles?

God is not against war per se.

That is right.

In fact God HIMSELF is a MAN OF WAR, according to scriptures.

He is a ONE MAN war machine. In fact, he is the captain of an army. One night the captain went into the camp of the Syrians and KILLED 183,000 of those from a foreign country (Sis Alvear) but not just because they were from a foreign country. He killed all 183,000 in just one night.

Under the anointing that God gave Samson, there is no telling how many of another country that he killed.

God is a MAN OF WAR. In RIGHTEOUSNESS doth he MAKE WAR.

[Felicity]

That is right.

In fact God HIMSELF is a MAN OF WAR, according to scriptures.

He is a ONE MAN war machine. In fact, he is the captain of an army. One night the captain went into the camp of the Syrians and KILLED 183,000 of those from a foreign country (Sis Alvear) but not just because they were from a foreign country. He killed all 183,000 in just one night.

Under the anointing that God gave Samson, there is no telling how many of another country that he killed.

God is a MAN OF WAR. In RIGHTEOUSNESS doth he MAKE WAR.Oh yeah - absolutely! :nod

[DividedThigh]

Oh yeah - absolutely! :nod

that is so true guys, i personally, stress on the personally believe that there is righteous war and other that isnt, when god gave israel the promised land he commanded them to go in and basically ethnically cleanse the place, they disobeyed and the people they left , led them into idolatry, there is always a reason for gods commands, interesting, hmm, dt:hypercoffee

[Brother Strange]

that is so true guys, i personally, stress on the personally believe that there is righteous war and other that isnt, when god gave israel the promised land he commanded them to go in and basically ethnically cleanse the place, they disobeyed and the people they left , led them into idolatry, there is always a reason for gods commands, interesting, hmm, dt:hypercoffee

That is right D.T. and Felicity.

Look at the awful blood shed and gore that was carried out by those under the command of Saul at the the command of Samuel, the Prophet. Saul disobeyed God because he spared a fine looking king and the best of the flock.

Samuel seeing the disobedience took Saul's own sword and hacked down a defenseless man, Agag the king, and stripped Saul's kingdom from him for his disobedience for not killing all.

God is a MAN of War because he is RIGHTEOUS.

Yet, I believe that America has involved herself in a number of UNrighteous wars for which we will pay the price. I do not believe the war in Iraq is a rightreous war. I hope I am wrong. If not, we are going to pay dearly for it.

For our own unrighteous wars, we are going to see war right here on our own soil. There is a price to pay for unrighteousness.

[Esther]

That is right D.T. and Felicity.

Look at the awful blood shed and gore that was carried out by those under the command of Saul at the the command of Samuel, the Prophet. Saul disobeyed God because he spared a fine looking king and the best of the flock.

Samuel seeing the disobedience took Saul's own sword and hacked down a defenseless man, Agag the king, and stripped Saul's kingdom from him for his disobedience for not killing all.

God is a MAN of War because he is RIGHTEOUS.

Yet, I believe that America has involved herself in a number of UNrighteous wars for which we will pay the price. I do not believe the war in Iraq is a rightreous war. I hope I am wrong. If not, we are going to pay dearly for it.

For our own unrighteous wars, we are going to see war right here on our own soil. There is a price to pay for unrighteousness.


Why do you say that?

[DividedThigh]

wow bro strange, scary isnt it, but i cant argue with you there, just pray and hope, dt:hypercoffee

[Brother Strange]

Why do you say that?

Sister Esther,

I noted that I hope that I am wrong. I sincerely mean it. I hope, I hope that I am wrong about my estimation concerning the righteousness of this war. We were never attacked by Iraq. The people of Iraq had exactly the kind of government that they've had for thousands of years. It will be the exact same kind of government that will return to long after we are gone. Though a monster, Sadaam had everything under absolute control there. Though the people lived in fear of him, they would have it no other way.

Prolonged democracy in Iraq will end up as civil war in the end, after we are gone.

[Brother Strange]

wow bro strange, scary isnt it, but i cant argue with you there, just pray and hope, dt:hypercoffee

Amen. Let us hope, pray and remember what our children and grandchildren are going to face except God rules in the affairs of men.

[Esther]

Sister Esther,

I noted that I hope that I am wrong. I sincerely mean it. I hope, I hope that I am wrong about my estimation concerning the righteousness of this war. We were never attacked by Iraq. The people of Iraq had exactly the kind of government that they've had for thousands of years. It will be the exact same kind of government that will return to long after we are gone. Though a monster, Sadaam had everything under absolute control there. Though the people lived in fear of him, they would have it no other way.

Prolonged democracy in Iraq will end up as civil war in the end, after we are gone.

I think they are already in civil war.

[DividedThigh]

I think they are already in civil war.

i am not sure sis, but my sources and a brother who just got back from they say that is a fabrication of the lib media, dt:hypercoffee

[ILuvFPC]

How ironic.. Right after reading through this thread I recieve a text from a church friend requesting prayer for the family of one of her friends who was killed in Iraq today. The young man left a young widow and a fatherless baby. How sad.

[Rico]

No offence, but this is just your opinion. What is Jesus'? Where does He say He agrees with you? As Christians that should be our REAL concern.

You say this, but then it is pointed out to you that God ordered the deaths of thousands of people you blow it off with another question. The Bible says there is a time for war. Who is supposed to fight that war? Is God supposed to swoop down like Mighty Mouse to save the day so people won't actually have to die?

[Blubayou]

I am not in favor of reinstating the draft. I lived through the draft days of the 60's and early 70's, when we were sending men over to Vietnam. The only way I would be in favor of a draft would be in a situation like WWII. Where the US was attacked and a war ensued for our freedoms. This is not the case in the present confrontation we are participating in in Iraq.IMO

[Brother Strange]

Just my opinion of course, but I believe that every able bodied American should be conscripted to serve National interest in some form or the other for at least two years.

Of course it would be the most unpopular policy in America too.

[Pressing-On]

Just my opinion of course, but I believe that every able bodied American should be conscripted to serve National interest in some form or the other for at least two years.

Of course it would be the most unpopular policy in America too.

I think they should also! I think one year would be good. After a year they could re-up or get out.

How long do they serve in Israel? I know they have a mandatory there.

[Brother Strange]

I think they should also! I think one year would be good. After a year they could re-up or get out.

How long do they serve in Israel? I know they have a mandatory there.

I'm not sure how long they serve, but I understand they all have to serve for some time.

[TK Burk]

You say this, but then it is pointed out to you that God ordered the deaths of thousands of people you blow it off with another question. The Bible says there is a time for war. Who is supposed to fight that war? Is God supposed to swoop down like Mighty Mouse to save the day so people won't actually have to die?

Rico,

This is not a new question; it is the same one I keep asking.

The same people you said were called to fight physical wars in the Old Testament were also called to do the following:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: (19) Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; (20) And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. (21) And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Is this to still be enforced in the New Testament as well? If not, why is this any different than what you are saying? I am not asking because I need this answer; this question is for you….

Remember John and James’ request?

Luke 9:54-55 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did? (55) But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Why was such vengeance acceptable during Elijah’s time, but not during the New Testament? Why did Jesus say that Zebedee’s, “Sons of Thunder, were asking for something that was of a “different spirit” than Jesus’? Again, I am not asking for me….

God used to wink at a lot of things that the New Testament says He now calls all men to repent for. Jesus said Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of their Old-Testament-hearts, but then He raised the standard for all men in the New Testament and showed that a new heart should bring a deeper commitment. Jesus had a woman caught in adultery cast before His feet to see if He would agree with stoning her as commanded through Moses. What did Jesus do? He showed that judgment was not the highest standard of His kingdom. Instead He showed mercy. Rico, Jesus’ kingdom is built on His blood, not on His enemy’s. Jesus’ kingdom is to be known for love and mercy, not for hate and judgment. How can we demonstrate these godly traits while fighting a war?

Jesus is not a weak god that cannot rule from his own throne. Do you truly believe that He needs His Church to execute justice for him? See that is where we differ. I cannot find any scripture that says Jesus uses His Church for these things. Paul said that He uses heathen leaders for that, but the Church is to stay focused on love (See Romans 13:1-10).

I have asked repeatedly where the Jesus and or His Apostles wrote favorably concerning the Church involving herself in war or in killing her enemies. The absence of these scriptures should be cause enough for any who favor this draft to stop and think about how they could be in favor for something unsupported—and even spoken against—in scripture. How can we trust Jesus for our healing, or for our sustenance, or for our salvation, but not for our safety? The early Church trusted Him in all these. That is why there is NO RECORD of the early Church ever taking up arms to defend themselves. This is one of the biggest reasons why Rome was so attracted to the Church. Though persecuted, they never fought back. The Romans saw this as a strength that exceeded mere human ability. This testimony substantiated the Jesus that the Church preached and died for! Because of this, Rico, why should we be any different? Did Jesus change, or did men?

Sorry about the length of my post, but some things take more than a few words to say. :winkgrin

[Evang.Benincasa]

I have a 19 year old son and some pretty entrenched opinions and emotional responses. :sing

1. NO WAY should we be drafting young men for a prolonged war that many in the country don't want and that we are not prepared to win once and for all.

I'm with you all the way Sister. NO WAY. As far as Christianity goes Christians are not to fight, period. For all those who claim that war is part of the New Covenant Church are some who say their is no scripture for standards, tithes, or instrumental music, etc, but will beat their tin drum and tell us that the Church of Jesus Christ can go to war? No scriptural backing whatsoever? I agree with you on the above quote.


2. NO WAY should women be drafted for combat. They are a liability on the battlefield, physically and emotionally.

Correct! They are also a liabilty behind the pulpit as a pastor over a congregation. Now all you have to do Sister is put the two thoughts together. Amen?


Women's bodies were designed for bringing forth life not fighting wars.

Totally correct Sister Newman, one they shouldn't be fighting wars and number two if they're Christians they should not do any harm to any person, for any reason.


Their lack of upperbody strength and inability to throw a grenade far enough puts everybody at risk.

Also the lack of upper body strength behind a pulpit when assuming the role of apostle or pastor over a congregation.





Furthermore, Women's emotions enable nurturing but are not so great for combat.

Also not so great in leadership over men. :)



The presence of women in these places also destroys the sanctity of the families back home. Good men stray under the strain of uncertainty and the daily proximity of women.

Keep in mind especially when those same women are in positions over men in a congregation. :)




It has been said that there is no such thing as an ugly woman on a ship over time.

And in fact; one out of 10 women are removed from ships and/or the battlefield due to pregnancy.

Hey what happens when a pastor get preganant? :killinme


And for the record; one can advocate for the right of women to be treated the same as men where they are EQUIPPED to handle it; without sending them into combat to the detriment of ALL.

This is a hit and run post! :driving

You are correct! Keep the ladies out of the male roles and the world will be a nicer place to be.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

There is no reason that I would ever be for the draft.

I would neither be behind my children being involved in war.

You are correct! Bravo!

[John Atkinson]

Now that the women have for so long pushed, pushed, pushed, campaigned for, sought after, insisted upon every equality with the men, to which I have no objection, then I say, "Shoulder arms ol' girl, we are going to war and do not lag behind."
My daughter was 10 when 9/11 went off, I knew then she would come of age in a world at war. My bottom line is Iraq isn't about freedom or the war on terror, it is about an imbecile we put in office and stupidly continue to follow. My kid's blood isn't for sale.

Try and take her to feed the war machine and I'll buy her ticket to anywhere else myself.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Rico,

This is not a new question; it is the same one I keep asking.

The same people you said were called to fight physical wars in the Old Testament were also called to do the following:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: (19) Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; (20) And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. (21) And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Is this to still be enforced in the New Testament as well? If not, why is this any different than what you are saying? I am not asking because I need this answer; this question is for you….

Remember John and James’ request?

Luke 9:54-55 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did? (55) But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Why was such vengeance acceptable during Elijah’s time, but not during the New Testament? Why did Jesus say that Zebedee’s, “Sons of Thunder, were asking for something that was of a “different spirit” than Jesus’? Again, I am not asking for me….

God used to wink at a lot of things that the New Testament says He now calls all men to repent for. Jesus said Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of their Old-Testament-hearts, but then He raised the standard for all men in the New Testament and showed that a new heart should bring a deeper commitment. Jesus had a woman caught in adultery cast before His feet to see if He would agree with stoning her as commanded through Moses. What did Jesus do? He showed that judgment was not the highest standard of His kingdom. Instead He showed mercy. Rico, Jesus’ kingdom is built on His blood, not on His enemy’s. Jesus’ kingdom is to be known for love and mercy, not for hate and judgment. How can we demonstrate these godly traits while fighting a war?

Jesus is not a weak god that cannot rule from his own throne. Do you truly believe that He needs His Church to execute justice for him? See that is where we differ. I cannot find any scripture that says Jesus uses His Church for these things. Paul said that He uses heathen leaders for that, but the Church is to stay focused on love (See Romans 13:1-10).

I have asked repeatedly where the Jesus and or His Apostles wrote favorably concerning the Church involving herself in war or in killing her enemies. The absence of these scriptures should be cause enough for any who favor this draft to stop and think about how they could be in favor for something unsupported—and even spoken against—in scripture. How can we trust Jesus for our healing, or for our sustenance, or for our salvation, but not for our safety? The early Church trusted Him in all these. That is why there is NO RECORD of the early Church ever taking up arms to defend themselves. This is one of the biggest reasons why Rome was so attracted to the Church. Though persecuted, they never fought back. The Romans saw this as a strength that exceeded mere human ability. This testimony substantiated the Jesus that the Church preached and died for! Because of this, Rico, why should we be any different? Did Jesus change, or did men?

Sorry about the length of my post, but some things take more than a few words to say. :winkgrin

Well done L&F you did a very good job in this post. Turn the other cheek means turn the other cheek. One cannot get around the anti-retaliation of the New Covenant Church. Ghandi was even inspired by the non-retaliation that was taught in the scripture of the New Testament. Do no harm, we are not to hurt anyone. Brothers and Sisters life takes on new meaning when your friend is bleeding to death in your arms. Anyone who wants to see our young people go to war, especially my daughters, maybe you should be on the front line first? First partakers of the fruit...right?


In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

My daughter was 10 when 9/11 went off, I knew then she would come of age in a world at war. My bottom line is Iraq isn't about freedom or the war on terror, it is about an imbecile we put in office and stupidly continue to follow. My kid's blood isn't for sale.

Try and take her to feed the war machine and I'll buy her ticket to anywhere else myself.

Amen Brother, Lord bless your daughter may she live a long life with her hands lifted high for Jesus and her speaking in other tongues.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

I am new here, so I hope my question is taken without offense: where does Jesus give a Christian the approval to fight against or kill an enemy?


Was this question ever answered?

[TK Burk]

Just my opinion of course, but I believe that every able bodied American should be conscripted to serve National interest in some form or the other for at least two years.

Of course it would be the most unpopular policy in America too.

If a person is truly a Christian then they already do serve in this capacity--it's called the Great Commission! THAT is the greatest service one can spend toward this country, or anyone else's. :preach

[TK Burk]

Was this question ever answered?

Nope. :nah

[Evang.Benincasa]

Anyone ever read this book?

MARTYRS MIRROR

of the DEFENSELESS CHRISTIANS
http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/contents.htm

I guess these Anabaptists didn't read those scriptures where Jesus said that we are to slap the snot out of those who try to hurt us. :)

[Evang.Benincasa]

If a person is truly a Christian then they already do serve in this capacity--it's called the Great Commission! THAT is the greatest service one can spend toward this country, or anyone else's. :preach

Very good, we are called to be servants.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Doesn't Kingdom Dominion Now Theology teach that Christians are to take over the world through politics and goverment powers? Sort of like the ....Roman Catholic Church? No new thing under the sun?

But, where do the gold teeth fillings fit in?

[TK Burk]

Doesn't Kingdom Dominion Now Theology teach that Christians are to take over the world through politics and goverment powers? Sort of like the ....Roman Catholic Church? No new thing under the sun?

But, where do the gold teeth fillings fit in?

Kingdom Theology is a SCARY doctrine. :sos I cannot believe that apostolics are actually buying into it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Kingdom Theology is a SCARY doctrine. :sos I cannot believe that apostolics are actually buying into it.


Kingdom Theology and what about gold fillings? What does gold fillings and Kingdom theology have to do with one another? How about teaching the saints to give 75% over their ten percent? All this is pretty odd, but it would seem that they all go together these days. Listen there is no way I would advocate any draft that would place the young Brothers and Sisters over in the middle of a fire fight.

[chosenbyone]

Nope. :nah

Check out post 28.

[Titus2Mom]

NO! We already get in lazy-feel-entitled-whiny-baby-have-no-sense-of-respect-or-responsibility-or-discipline (etc) "soldiers" as it is. Can you imagine what a draft would bring in???

Don't get me wrong, we get good ones in too, but the numbers of soldiers I describe above are rising, and gets me to where I don't have anything to do with my "military" life anymore.

[TK Burk]

Check out post 28.

You are right. So far the scripture tally is:

1. The Bible in favor of Christians fighting in wars = None
2. The Bible in favor of Christians killing their enemy = None
3. The Bible against Christians fighting in war = LOTS
4. The Bible against Christians killing their enemy = LOTS

So if we speak were the Bible speaks, what is this saying? :poloroid

[Evang.Benincasa]

You are right. So far the scripture tally is:

1. The Bible in favor of Christians fighting in wars = None
2. The Bible in favor of Christians killing their enemy = None
3. The Bible against Christians fighting in war = LOTS
4. The Bible against Christians killing their enemy = LOTS

So if we speak were the Bible speaks, what is this saying? :poloroid

When they sing onward Christian soldiers they don't mean carrying a weapon.


2Co 10:3-4 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are NOT CARNAL, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )"

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Luk 3:14

"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, DO VIOLENCE TO NO MAN, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."

[Mosby48]

Just a thought and I'm working by memory but doesn't the UPC manual say that members are not to be a part of the military that fights the enemy. They can work support but are to be C.O.'s. (Objectors) Or has that part been taken out? In this war that would preclude even going overseas.

[berkeley]

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l242/disorderlyprofusion/consc.jpg

[Praxeas]

The ironic thing is I NEVER EVER hear any UPC preacher, liberal or Conservative preach this part of the AOF

[berkeley]

The ironic thing is I NEVER EVER hear any UPC preacher, liberal or Conservative preach this part of the AOF

A few yrs ago there was an article on 90&9.. I don't recall the title, something like "Pacifists to Dogs of War" LoL

[berkeley]

Found it..

From Pentecostal Pacifists to Dogs of War (http://www.ninetyandnine.com/Archives/20021209/cover.htm)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Found it..

From Pentecostal Pacifists to Dogs of War (http://www.ninetyandnine.com/Archives/20021209/cover.htm)


"Christians should defy definition outside of the desire to be like Christ."

~Marcus Trammell

Very good article. Words that should be considered. :)

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com