The AntiChrist and Rapture Fraud?

[SDG]

The Antichrist Fraud By Gary DeMar (http://www.americanvision.org/garydemarbio.asp)


Apparently someone hacked into the Planet Preterist web site (http://www.planetpreterist.com/) and directed users to Tim LaHaye's Left Behind web site (http://www.leftbehind.com/). The front page of LaHaye's site informs viewers that a prequel to the Left Behind series–"Before They Were Left Behind–will hit stores on March 1, 2004. The title of the new volume is The Rising: Antichrist is Born. LaHaye and company are milking millions of uninformed Christians of their hard-earned dollars on one of the most ridiculous religious scams of the century.

But before there was LaHaye, there was Lindsey. Hal Lindsey wrote in 1970 that he believed that the antichrist was alive somewhere in the world. He repeated this belief in 1977 when he wrote that it was his "personal opinion" that "he's alive somewhere now. But he's not going to become this awesome figure that we nickname the Anti-Christ until Satan possesses him, and I don't believe that will occur until there is this "mortal wound" from which he's raised up."1 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn1) In 1980 he restated this conviction by claiming that "this man [antichrist] is alive today–alive and waiting to come forth."2 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn2) What was false thirty-four years ago is equally false today.

Not to be outdone, Dave Hunt voiced a similar opinion in 1990: "Somewhere, at this very moment, on planet Earth, the antichrist is almost certainly alive–biding his time, awaiting his cue. Banal sensationalism? Far from it! That likelihood is based upon a sober evaluation of current events in relation to Bible prophecy. Already a mature man, he is probably active in politics, perhaps even an admired world leader whose name is almost daily on everyone's lips."3 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn3) Like Lindsey before him and LaHaye after him, Dave Hunt is confused.

Modern antichrist hunters are pursuing a figure who no longer exists. Let's look at the biblical evidence. The word "antichrist" appears only in John's epistles (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7). "What is taught in these passages constitutes the whole New Testament doctrine of Antichrist."4 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn4) You will search in vain to find the word anywhere mentioned in Revelation or any part of the Old Testament. John's antichrist is defined in the following ways, none of which fits the modern definition:
Anyone "who denies that Jesus is the Christ" (1 John 2:22).
Anyone who "denies the Father and Son" (1 John 2:23).
“Every spirit that does not confess Jesus" (1 John 4:3).
"Those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2 John 7).http://www.americanvision.org/images/antichrist_alive.jpg

Could the Bible be any more clear? According to the Bible, antichrist is not a single individual, a world-wide political manipulator of the religious masses.

John wrote, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour" (1 John 2:18). Notice the "when" of antichrist. Whether there was to be only one or many antichrists, John made it clear that "it is the last hour" for those who first read his letters (1 John 2:18). How do we know this? John said, "Even now many antichrists have arisen." And in case you did not get his point, he repeated it: "From this we know that it is the last hour." John was not describing a period of time thousands of years in the future. It was the "last hour" for those living in the first century. They had heard that "the spirit of antichrist" was coming. For them, "now it is already in the world" (1 John 4:3). Antichrists had arisen in John's day.

An antichrist, therefore, is anyone who "denies that Jesus is the Christ" and anyone "who denies the Father and the Son" (1 John 2:22). "Every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of antichrist" (1 John 4:3). "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2 John 7). The antichrist is a religious figure, probably related to those Jews in the first century who denied that Jesus was the Messiah. John was not far off when he used the phrase "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9; 3:9).

Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series is a fraud, more fiction than fact. You will do better by writing to Tyndale and asking them to abandon the series and thereby quit deceiving millions of uninformed but eager religious seekers.
1 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref1) The Great Cosmic Countdown: Hal Lindsey on the Future," Eternity (January 1977), 80.
2 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref2) Hal Lindsey, The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon (King of Prussia, PA: Westgate Press, 1980), 15.
3 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref3) Dave Hunt, Global Peace and the Rise of Antichrist (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1990), 5.
4 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref4) Benjamin B. Warfield, "Antichrist," in Selected Shorter Writings of Benjamin B. Warfield, ed. John E. Meeter (Nutley, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1970), 1:356.

Copyright information added by Admin below
We invite you to freely distribute the articles written by American Vision on this web site and in Biblical Worldview magazine. By doing this, you will increase the awareness of American Vision – a ministry that desires to reach as many Christians as possible with the importance and relevance of having a truly biblical worldview.

Our only requirement is that you always include our contact information on republished articles (web, print, etc.):

American Vision P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460, www.americanvision.org.

[SDG]

Gary Demar speaks about his views against a pre-tribulation rapture ...

Click here ....

http://www.americanvision.org/mediaarchive/SERapture.mp3

[Brother Strange]

Time LaHaye and others are making millions of dollars perverting truth for the sake of personal enrichment. Their fortune intake has been abundant.

But God has hid his things from the wise and the prudent and has revealed them unto babes...that is to say the lowly and insignificant among us.

[SDG]

Time LaHaye and others are making millions of dollars perverting truth for the sake of personal enrichment. Their fortune intake has been abundant.

But God has hid his things from the wise and the prudent and has revealed them unto babes...that is to say the lowly and insignificant among us.

How do you think men like LaHaye have perverted truth?

[Trouvere]

Brother Daniel they have their roots deep in Darbyism.Pray,open your heart
and do some research.You are intelligent after all they let you in college.
Let me know what you find out.

[Brother Strange]

Would this be an invitation to debate Prophecy?

The only position that I am against to the core of my very soul is all forms of Preterism.

[SDG]

Brother Daniel they have their roots deep in Darbyism.Pray,open your heart
and do some research.You are intelligent after all they let you in college.
Let me know what you find out.

T,

Please pray for those who cannot let their faith stretch ... and hold on to a brick wall theology.

[SDG]

Would this be an invitation to debate Prophecy?

The only position that I am against to the core of my very soul is all forms of Preterism.

20 paces and draw. Care to tell us how LaHaye has perverted truth? And what are your rapture and Anti-Christ views?

[Brother Strange]

20 paces and draw. Care to tell us how LaHaye has perverted truth? And what are your rapture and Anti-Christ views?

Only 20 paces? Man, I need a mile!

Anyway, I'm too lazy to get all fired up today. Maybe another day. :bedtime

[pelathais]

20 paces and draw. Care to tell us how LaHaye has perverted truth? And what are your rapture and Anti-Christ views?
I was 11 years old when I stumbled upon Hal Lindsey's book. I sat down and spent the next few years teaching myself Dispensationalism. The only thing was, "Dispensationalism" for me was synonymous with "Bible Prophecy." There simply wasn't any info available to me at the time to learn the full breadth and range of the subject. So I became an "expert" on the 70 Weeks of Daniel, etc. but was basically illiterate on other views.

After spending my lifetime watching Dispensationalism not come true (and missing every book opportunity) I really have no position. You link to www.americanvision.org (http://www.americanvision.org/). Can you sum up their stands? Just with a quick glance it seems that they:

1) Are Dominion oriented prophetically (I may be wrong)
2) Follow the revisionist path of American History which denies the influence of the Enlightenment upon on Founding Fathers
3) Promote the embarrassingly unscientific views of AIG and ICR

I've got an after-church lunch appointment and then I'll be back - that'll be my 20 paces if there's shootout in this... :)

[mfblume]

The only position that I am against to the core of my very soul is all forms of Preterism.


Some disagree with an issue due to personalities involved in the past.

Anyway, anyone who studies biblical prophecy at all will see through pretrib rapture theory first and easiest.

[RevDWW]

The Antichrist Fraud By Gary DeMar (http://www.americanvision.org/garydemarbio.asp)


Apparently someone hacked into the Planet Preterist web site (http://www.planetpreterist.com/) and directed users to Tim LaHaye's Left Behind web site (http://www.leftbehind.com/). The front page of LaHaye's site informs viewers that a prequel to the Left Behind series–"Before They Were Left Behind–will hit stores on March 1, 2004. The title of the new volume is The Rising: Antichrist is Born. LaHaye and company are milking millions of uninformed Christians of their hard-earned dollars on one of the most ridiculous religious scams of the century.

But before there was LaHaye, there was Lindsey. Hal Lindsey wrote in 1970 that he believed that the antichrist was alive somewhere in the world. He repeated this belief in 1977 when he wrote that it was his "personal opinion" that "he's alive somewhere now. But he's not going to become this awesome figure that we nickname the Anti-Christ until Satan possesses him, and I don't believe that will occur until there is this "mortal wound" from which he's raised up."1 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn1) In 1980 he restated this conviction by claiming that "this man [antichrist] is alive today–alive and waiting to come forth."2 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn2) What was false thirty-four years ago is equally false today.

Not to be outdone, Dave Hunt voiced a similar opinion in 1990: "Somewhere, at this very moment, on planet Earth, the antichrist is almost certainly alive–biding his time, awaiting his cue. Banal sensationalism? Far from it! That likelihood is based upon a sober evaluation of current events in relation to Bible prophecy. Already a mature man, he is probably active in politics, perhaps even an admired world leader whose name is almost daily on everyone's lips."3 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn3) Like Lindsey before him and LaHaye after him, Dave Hunt is confused.

Modern antichrist hunters are pursuing a figure who no longer exists. Let's look at the biblical evidence. The word "antichrist" appears only in John's epistles (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7). "What is taught in these passages constitutes the whole New Testament doctrine of Antichrist."4 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn4) You will search in vain to find the word anywhere mentioned in Revelation or any part of the Old Testament. John's antichrist is defined in the following ways, none of which fits the modern definition:
Anyone "who denies that Jesus is the Christ" (1 John 2:22).
Anyone who "denies the Father and Son" (1 John 2:23).
“Every spirit that does not confess Jesus" (1 John 4:3).
"Those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2 John 7).http://www.americanvision.org/images/antichrist_alive.jpg

Could the Bible be any more clear? According to the Bible, antichrist is not a single individual, a world-wide political manipulator of the religious masses.

John wrote, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour" (1 John 2:18). Notice the "when" of antichrist. Whether there was to be only one or many antichrists, John made it clear that "it is the last hour" for those who first read his letters (1 John 2:18). How do we know this? John said, "Even now many antichrists have arisen." And in case you did not get his point, he repeated it: "From this we know that it is the last hour." John was not describing a period of time thousands of years in the future. It was the "last hour" for those living in the first century. They had heard that "the spirit of antichrist" was coming. For them, "now it is already in the world" (1 John 4:3). Antichrists had arisen in John's day.

An antichrist, therefore, is anyone who "denies that Jesus is the Christ" and anyone "who denies the Father and the Son" (1 John 2:22). "Every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of antichrist" (1 John 4:3). "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2 John 7). The antichrist is a religious figure, probably related to those Jews in the first century who denied that Jesus was the Messiah. John was not far off when he used the phrase "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9; 3:9).

Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series is a fraud, more fiction than fact. You will do better by writing to Tyndale and asking them to abandon the series and thereby quit deceiving millions of uninformed but eager religious seekers.
1 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref1) The Great Cosmic Countdown: Hal Lindsey on the Future," Eternity (January 1977), 80.
2 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref2) Hal Lindsey, The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon (King of Prussia, PA: Westgate Press, 1980), 15.
3 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref3) Dave Hunt, Global Peace and the Rise of Antichrist (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1990), 5.
4 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref4) Benjamin B. Warfield, "Antichrist," in Selected Shorter Writings of Benjamin B. Warfield, ed. John E. Meeter (Nutley, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1970), 1:356.

Copyright information added by Admin below
We invite you to freely distribute the articles written by American Vision on this web site and in Biblical Worldview magazine. By doing this, you will increase the awareness of American Vision – a ministry that desires to reach as many Christians as possible with the importance and relevance of having a truly biblical worldview.

Our only requirement is that you always include our contact information on republished articles (web, print, etc.):

American Vision P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460, www.americanvision.org.


2 Thess 2:2 - 2 Thess 2:12 (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
To bad Paul didn't know that there is not an Anti-Chirst maybe he would have written something different to the Thessalonians. (tongue firmly in cheek)

Seems like a good description of him to me.........:nah

[RevDWW]

By the way we might should be looking for Jesus Christ more than we worry about the Antichrist.......

[Truthseeker]

To bad Paul didn't know that there is not an Anti-Chirst maybe he would have written something different to the Thessalonians. (tongue firmly in cheek)

Seems like a good description of him to me.........:nah

Maybe I missed it where in thess did he mention the antichrist?

[mfblume]

To bad Paul didn't know that there is not an Anti-Chirst maybe he would have written something different to the Thessalonians. (tongue firmly in cheek)

Seems like a good description of him to me.........:nah

Paul never mentioned the term antichrist. That term has been distroted to mean a single man of military world domination. It is only used in 1 John and 2 John. And that is FAR from any military world dominator! LOL. It is SIMPLY anyone and any spirit that denies Christ came in flesh. How did that ever get to be twisted to be a military man of world power????

We assume things after hearing them without having first ensured what we heard was correct.

[mfblume]

Maybe I missed it where in thess did he mention the antichrist?

Exactly.

[Pressing-On]

Paul never mentioned the term antichrist. That term has been distroted to mean a single man of military world domination. It is only used in 1 John and 2 John. And that is FAR from any military world dominator! LOL. It is SIMPLY anyone and any spirit that denies Christ came in flesh. How did that ever get to be twisted to be a military man of world power????

We assume things after hearing them without having first ensured what we heard was correct.

Thank you!!!!!!!

[RevDWW]

Maybe I missed it where in thess did he mention the antichrist?

Paul never mentioned the term antichrist. That term has been distroted to mean a single man of military world domination. It is only used in 1 John and 2 John. And that is FAR from any military world dominator! LOL. It is SIMPLY anyone and any spirit that denies Christ came in flesh. How did that ever get to be twisted to be a military man of world power????

We assume things after hearing them without having first ensured what we heard was correct.

Exactly.

So you are saying the son of perdition is not anti Christ when he exalts himself against and above Christ? He's not trying to have world domination?

[Praxeas]

The Antichrist Fraud By Gary DeMar (http://www.americanvision.org/garydemarbio.asp)


Apparently someone hacked into the Planet Preterist web site (http://www.planetpreterist.com/) and directed users to Tim LaHaye's Left Behind web site (http://www.leftbehind.com/). The front page of LaHaye's site informs viewers that a prequel to the Left Behind series–"Before They Were Left Behind–will hit stores on March 1, 2004. The title of the new volume is The Rising: Antichrist is Born. LaHaye and company are milking millions of uninformed Christians of their hard-earned dollars on one of the most ridiculous religious scams of the century.

But before there was LaHaye, there was Lindsey. Hal Lindsey wrote in 1970 that he believed that the antichrist was alive somewhere in the world. He repeated this belief in 1977 when he wrote that it was his "personal opinion" that "he's alive somewhere now. But he's not going to become this awesome figure that we nickname the Anti-Christ until Satan possesses him, and I don't believe that will occur until there is this "mortal wound" from which he's raised up."1 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn1) In 1980 he restated this conviction by claiming that "this man [antichrist] is alive today–alive and waiting to come forth."2 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn2) What was false thirty-four years ago is equally false today.

Not to be outdone, Dave Hunt voiced a similar opinion in 1990: "Somewhere, at this very moment, on planet Earth, the antichrist is almost certainly alive–biding his time, awaiting his cue. Banal sensationalism? Far from it! That likelihood is based upon a sober evaluation of current events in relation to Bible prophecy. Already a mature man, he is probably active in politics, perhaps even an admired world leader whose name is almost daily on everyone's lips."3 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn3) Like Lindsey before him and LaHaye after him, Dave Hunt is confused.

Modern antichrist hunters are pursuing a figure who no longer exists. Let's look at the biblical evidence. The word "antichrist" appears only in John's epistles (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7). "What is taught in these passages constitutes the whole New Testament doctrine of Antichrist."4 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftn4) You will search in vain to find the word anywhere mentioned in Revelation or any part of the Old Testament. John's antichrist is defined in the following ways, none of which fits the modern definition:
Anyone "who denies that Jesus is the Christ" (1 John 2:22).
Anyone who "denies the Father and Son" (1 John 2:23).
“Every spirit that does not confess Jesus" (1 John 4:3).
"Those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2 John 7).http://www.americanvision.org/images/antichrist_alive.jpg

Could the Bible be any more clear? According to the Bible, antichrist is not a single individual, a world-wide political manipulator of the religious masses.

John wrote, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour" (1 John 2:18). Notice the "when" of antichrist. Whether there was to be only one or many antichrists, John made it clear that "it is the last hour" for those who first read his letters (1 John 2:18). How do we know this? John said, "Even now many antichrists have arisen." And in case you did not get his point, he repeated it: "From this we know that it is the last hour." John was not describing a period of time thousands of years in the future. It was the "last hour" for those living in the first century. They had heard that "the spirit of antichrist" was coming. For them, "now it is already in the world" (1 John 4:3). Antichrists had arisen in John's day.

An antichrist, therefore, is anyone who "denies that Jesus is the Christ" and anyone "who denies the Father and the Son" (1 John 2:22). "Every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of antichrist" (1 John 4:3). "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2 John 7). The antichrist is a religious figure, probably related to those Jews in the first century who denied that Jesus was the Messiah. John was not far off when he used the phrase "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9; 3:9).

Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series is a fraud, more fiction than fact. You will do better by writing to Tyndale and asking them to abandon the series and thereby quit deceiving millions of uninformed but eager religious seekers.
1 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref1) The Great Cosmic Countdown: Hal Lindsey on the Future," Eternity (January 1977), 80.
2 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref2) Hal Lindsey, The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon (King of Prussia, PA: Westgate Press, 1980), 15.
3 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref3) Dave Hunt, Global Peace and the Rise of Antichrist (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1990), 5.
4 (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-22-04.asp#_ftnref4) Benjamin B. Warfield, "Antichrist," in Selected Shorter Writings of Benjamin B. Warfield, ed. John E. Meeter (Nutley, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1970), 1:356.

Copyright information added by Admin below
We invite you to freely distribute the articles written by American Vision on this web site and in Biblical Worldview magazine. By doing this, you will increase the awareness of American Vision – a ministry that desires to reach as many Christians as possible with the importance and relevance of having a truly biblical worldview.

Our only requirement is that you always include our contact information on republished articles (web, print, etc.):

American Vision P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460, www.americanvision.org (http://www.americanvision.org).
John writes not just about anti-Christs plural but also THE Anti-Christ and the spirit of Anti-Christ. They believe there will be an individual embodiment of such a spirit who is also called the man of sin

2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

[RevDWW]

John writes not just about anti-Christs plural but also THE Anti-Christ and the spirit of Anti-Christ. They believe there will be an individual embodiment of such a spirit who is also called the man of sin

2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
We quoted the same passage and they wouldn't listen to me and I doubt they will listen to you. :nah The question will be asked "Where did it mention 'anti-Christ'?"

[berkeley]

POST TRIB all the way!!! Dispensationalism.. what is that?

[SDG]

Only 20 paces? Man, I need a mile!

Anyway, I'm too lazy to get all fired up today. Maybe another day. :bedtime

Would you like fries w/ that?

http://www.michaelbarrier.com/Commentary/Chicken_Little/Chicken_Little.jpg

[stmatthew]

2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Where is Gods Temple??

[berkeley]

Where is Gods Temple??

You are the temple. :)

[stmatthew]

You are the temple. :)

So am I the Man of Sin??

[berkeley]

So am I the Man of Sin??

Do you possess the spirit of God or the spirit of Antichrist? :)

[Forgiven]

By the way we might should be looking for Jesus Christ more than we worry about the Antichrist.......


:highfive

[SDG]

I was 11 years old when I stumbled upon Hal Lindsey's book. I sat down and spent the next few years teaching myself Dispensationalism. The only thing was, "Dispensationalism" for me was synonymous with "Bible Prophecy." There simply wasn't any info available to me at the time to learn the full breadth and range of the subject. So I became an "expert" on the 70 Weeks of Daniel, etc. but was basically illiterate on other views.

After spending my lifetime watching Dispensationalism not come true (and missing every book opportunity) I really have no position. You link to www.americanvision.org (http://www.americanvision.org/). Can you sum up their stands? Just with a quick glance it seems that they:

1) Are Dominion oriented prophetically (I may be wrong)
2) Follow the revisionist path of American History which denies the influence of the Enlightenment upon on Founding Fathers
3) Promote the embarrassingly unscientific views of AIG and ICR

I've got an after-church lunch appointment and then I'll be back - that'll be my 20 paces if there's shootout in this... :)

Tell us when you are done digesting ....

is there a man who will be a world leader ... commonly known as the Anti-Christ? Will there be a pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib "rapture"?

[berkeley]

Tell us when you are done digesting .... is there a man who will be a world leader ... commonly known as the Anti-Christ? Will there be a pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib "rapture"?

Does anyone study this stuff out? LoL.. What will some of you do when you find out that Russia is NOT Daniels' bear?

[stmatthew]

Do you possess the spirit of God or the spirit of Antichrist? :)

Since it is the carnal spirit that is enmity with God, I would suggest that the man of sin would be that carnal man that opposes all that is Godly, and exalts himself to rule the Temple of God as his own.

Those that are of the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but those that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

[berkeley]

Since it is the carnal spirit that is enmity with God, I would suggest that the man of sin would be that carnal man that opposes all that is Godly, and exalts himself to rule the Temple of God as his own.

Those that are of the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but those that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

I'm sorry, Matt. I'm not very sharp. Are we on the same page, or are you proposing the idea that there is going to be a rebuilding of the Temple?

[stmatthew]

I'm sorry, Matt. I'm not very sharp. Are we on the same page, or are you proposing the idea that there is going to be a rebuilding of the Temple?


Nope. We are the temple of God, as you rightly said. So the Man of Sin scripturally will sit in us and exalt himself above God. I espouse that the Man of Sin is the carnal fleshly spirit within each of us that if not crucified will rule us instead of God ruling us.

[RevDWW]

So our carnal man can do signs and wonders?:nah

[berkeley]

Nope. We are the temple of God, as you rightly said. So the Man of Sin scripturally will sit in us and exalt himself above God. I espouse that the Man of Sin is the carnal fleshly spirit within each of us that if not crucified will rule us instead of God ruling us.

This makes too much sense, Matt. It is sobering, to say the least.

[stmatthew]

So our carnal man can do signs and wonders?:nah


Lying signs and wonders.


Unless you believe that Gods temple is a place in middle east, and not our bodies, then this is a sound reasoning.

[berkeley]

Lying signs and wonders.


Unless you believe that Gods temple is a place in middle east, and not our bodies, then this is a sound reasoning.

RevDWW,

Is Gods' temple somewhere in the middle east??? :hmmm

[SDG]

Todd Warren
Who is the Antichrist?
http://members.aol.com/twarren13/antichr.html

God defines the antichrist as any deceiver (liar) who denies that Christ came down to earth as man in the flesh. Many Jews literally denied Christ in the flesh, many others denied there was a resurrection, but these antichrists deny Him in works while professing Him with the mouth. These are false teachers whose purpose is to snare the unwary to their vision of Christ. This is what an antichrist is. There is no scripture which defines him as a supernatural human, or a political leader, or a demon born of someone in need of an exorcism. God doesn't define him as a 'one world' ruler who is adept at computers or economics.

These are all the fanciful private, personal or political interpretations of men, but they have absolutely nothing to do with biblical hermeneutics or sound exegesis of the prophecy. Lawless man or sinful man is just as the name implies. Man who doesn't follow the laws of God, or man who sins. It's not a mystery. The very definition of sin is 'the transgression of the laws of God.' Therefore, the 'man of sin' definition should be self evident. But because of tradition, Church presupposition, worldliness, political climate, and the sloppy exegesis in our Churches, it is defined according to the best sellers, and the imaginations of men, rather than the Word of God.


The man of sin is 'literally' the lawless man. There really is no confusing language in 2nd Thessalonians, the confusion comes in when man wants to 'read into' scripture more than what is written there. The only mystery in Christendom is why so many people are deceived by the preposterous idea of a 'one man' antichrist. Ultimately, even that is not a mystery if we understand the nature of man and his penchant for setting his eyes on the worldly for answers, and not upon Christ. He will then 'naturally' see worldly things, instead of spiritual things.
One caveat that we should pay particular attention to is that despite what some theologians teach, the actual language of the Bible is that of, 'the man of sin,' not 'a man of sin.' And and mark of the beast is the number 'of man,' not the number of 'a man.' i.e., the man of sin is contrasting the man of Satan whose character is of lawlessness (sin), with the man of God, whose character is of obedience to the law. e.g.,

Psalms 1:1-2
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night."Here is the lawful man, as opposed to the lawless man. Here is the man of law as as opposed to the man of lawlessness, or sin. These aren't phrases speaking about one Godly man or one Devil man, they are illustrations of the Character of the man of Satan, and the man of God. One Keeps God's commandments (obeys laws) and the other doesn't (is lawless).

1st Timothy 6:11
"But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."The only word different in that phrase 'man of God' is the word 'God.' It's [anthropos] [theos], while the 'man of sin' is [anthropos] [hamartia]. Would anyone read 'man of God' and surmise it refers to one single man to come in the future? No, there is nothing in the wording to illustrate that, nor is there in 2nd thessalonians. The man of sin rising up in the temple is referring to the man opposed to the laws or commandments of God, not one devil man. The man of lawlessness or the man of sin illustrates a rising up of unlawfulness in the Churches, not in a literal temple building in the middle east.

[RevDWW]

I'm certainly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but the context here seems to be contrasting the return of Jesus and the coming on the scene of that 'son of perdition', who will exalt himself as God, and not a representation of the fallen nature of sinful man. 'That' seems to point to a specific one.

Now if Paul had written this to Corinth or Ephasis I might could see your point. Are you proposing that every references on the New Testament to "temple of God" is a reference to the soul?

[RevDWW]

RevDWW,

Is Gods' temple somewhere in the middle east??? :hmmm

Nah, that temple was destroyed in 73 A.D..........But the Isrealis are trying to get it rebuilt......

[berkeley]

Nah, that temple was destroyed in 73 A.D..........But the Isrealis are trying to get it rebuilt......

Do you believe that the rebuilt temple will be the "temple of God"?

[RevDWW]

Do you believe that the rebuilt temple will be the "temple of God"?

It will be to the Jews won't it?

[berkeley]

It will be to the Jews won't it?

In their delusions, yes.

[RevDWW]

Was Paul writing to converted Jews?

[SDG]

Was Paul writing to converted Jews?
He was writing to the church in Thessalonica ... I'm sure there were some converted Jews but wouldn't many of the converted ex-pagans have no idea that Paul was referring to the temple in Jerusalem ....???

[deacon blues]

So what did Jesus mean when he said in Mt.24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"?

How does someone see the carnal man standing in holy place of your soul? The Lord will return to literally sit on the throne in the rebuilt Temple so yes the room can be called the holy place, the building can be called the Temple of God. When Christ returns we will no longer be the Temple of God b/c the indwelling Spirit of God, the baptism of the Holy Ghost, will cease. I Cor. 13 makes that clear.

[Steve Epley]

I am an unashamned pretribulationist dispensationalist.

[SDG]

I am an unashamned pretribulationist dispensationalist.

What must one do to be UNSHAMNED?

[deacon blues]

What must one do to be UNSHAMNED?

Be UNDAMNED!:killinme

[Sam]

Does anyone study this stuff out? LoL.. What will some of you do when you find out that Russia is NOT Daniels' bear?

Wasn't Daniel's bear the Medo-Persian empire which defeated the lion (Babylon) in 539 BC?

[jwharv]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that isworshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he isGod.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

I want to present something that has really been on my mind recently and I have been studying for discussion to see how some others may view this issue. Let me first say I don’t feel that this discussion is really about seeing this verse as a past, present, or
future fulfillment. I have been looking at it because of what it has to say about the temple and what it could really be meaning. What I am proposing may shock some considering most think I take all things in scripture as literal without any spiritual or symbolic meaning to it. My question comes as we reference this verse to other verse such as;

1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwellethin you?

1Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

It is made very clear that we are the Temple of God the only acceptable Temple. It is also clear that in 2Th 2:3 that it mentions a great falling away of members of the church. Could it be that in 2Th 2:4 we find the temple of God mentioned that “the son of Perdition” is setting himself up to be God in and exalting himself in is the one true Temple of God today which is the heart of man? The one place God really wants to dwell?


God Bless

JW

Here is a post I made a looooooooonnggg time ago on another forum I thought would fit here...........

[Sam]

another viewpoint


1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure (rapture or catching away of the church) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
2 Thess 2:1-5

[berkeley]

Wasn't Daniel's bear the Medo-Persian empire which defeated the lion (Babylon) in 539 BC?

Shh.. don't say that around here. Some people have a complex. They need most prophecies to come to pass in their lifetime. So, when their predictions are missed.. they predict something else.

[philjones]

So what did Jesus mean when he said in Mt.24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"?

How does someone see the carnal man standing in holy place of your soul? The Lord will return to literally sit on the throne in the rebuilt Temple so yes the room can be called the holy place, the building can be called the Temple of God. When Christ returns we will no longer be the Temple of God b/c the indwelling Spirit of God, the baptism of the Holy Ghost, will cease. I Cor. 13 makes that clear.

Deacon,

Just for purpose of pondering... have you ever considered that the crucifixion of Jesus might well have been the abomination of desolation? It is a matter of who he that will let is in many of Daniels prophetic writings.

[berkeley]

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Dave MacPherson is a Post Tribulationist who makes some very good points on Tim Lahaye and Lahaye's book.

I took the article off "Powered by Christ" web site, I have not search out the entire web site so I don't know what they believe.

http://poweredbychrist.com/


Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism

(or Armageddonism and Politics)



by Dave MacPherson


First, let's get something straight. Many conservative evangelicals in America are not longing for the "world's end" or "judgment day" or a "millennium" or an "antichrist" or even the "second coming."

Although these phrases are in their theology books, the same books emphasize what they are waiting (and would almost die) for: the "any-moment pretribulation rapture" which is expected several years ahead of the second coming and most assuredly BEFORE a future "great tribulation"!

Hal Lindsey, the big rapture guru of the late 20th century, ended his bestselling book "The Late Great Planet Earth" with the word "MARANATHA" which pretribulation rapturists know is a code word for their rapture. And the same literal removal from earth at any moment lurks in Lindsey's other writings.

Tim LaHaye, the current rapture tycoon whose "Left Behind" bonanza has left even Lindsey behind, knows how to milk the rapturized masses. After his 1992 pro-rapture book "No Fear of the Storm" was published, it was revealed that he had sloppily omitted 48 words when airing a brief 19th century document - hardly good publicity! After sales slowed down, it was re-issued as "Rapture Under Attack" (with the same 48 missing words) and appeared to the public to be a new book. But not even the title change seemed to help things, and merchandiser LaHaye knew it was time to come up with some other titles that could further his rapture obsession.

And Jerry Falwell never seems to miss an opportunity, when preaching, to remind his audience that he most certainly believes in the "pretribulational rapture" view.

I can almost believe that the middle name of many Christian Right leaders is "Rapture"!

When checking pre-19th century prophetic development, one finds that "dispensational" thinking as well as Christian Zionistic roots had been in existence long before the emergence of pretribulation rapturism. Even the prophetic word "rapture" had been in print well before the 19th century - but always in reference to only an after-the-tribulation coming and never to a pretribulation coming.

Many are still unaware that the pretrib rapture idea was first publicly aired in the fall of 1830 in "The Morning Watch" (hereafter: TMW), a little-known quarterly journal published by the Irvingites (followers of famed London preacher Edward Irving) from 1829 to 1832 in Britain. Not only was this innovative publication years ahead of John Darby and his Plymouth Brethren colleagues, rapturally speaking, but in it we find shocking militancy that can be observed today in Christian Zionist preachers like John Hagee and Jerry Falwell.

As early as the September 1830 issue of TMW (pp. 510-514) a writer declared that only worthy Christians (which he labeled "Philadelphia") would be raptured before "the great tribulation" and less worthy ones (labeled "Laodicea") would be left on earth.

The September 1832 issue of the same journal (pp. 6-7) saw "Jews" as well as the less worthy Christians left behind.

But the March 1833 issue (p. 147) said that only "the Jews" would be excluded from the rapture.

So within a short period of time the Irvingites, while following the same Scriptures, revealed their innate anti-Jewishness by switching from a "church/church" dichotomy to a "church/Israel" dichotomy after convincing themselves that only "the Jews" would deserve a future tribulation!

After their adoption of an escapist view that no organized church had ever taught before 1830, the same early pretrib rapturists, feeling superior, began exhibiting some vices that often come to powerless persons who suddenly obtain power - vices like pride, hatred and persecution of others, playing God, and so on.

Sounding like Hagee and other warlike warmongers, TMW expressed even more delusional, rapture-inspired fantasies:

The September 1830 issue (p. 514), looking ahead to the hoped for "great escape," declared that the raptured believers would then collectively become "the victorious ministerer of the great tribulation" upon those left behind!

In March of 1832 the same Irvingite journal (p. 3) taught that the "vials" of wrath in the book of Revelation "shall be poured out by the risen [raptured] saints"!

And TMW in September 1832 (p. 27) went even further and announced that the collective group of raptured ones will "wield the thunders of its power against the dragon [Satan] and his angels, and cast them down from heaven"!

Note that these fanatics were more than willing to be the "chosen ones" to pour out tribulation and wrath on those not worthy to be "chosen": the Jews.

(I'm glad to report that Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in North Carolina is now the only North American institution that contains a complete set of every issue of "The Morning Watch." I recently gave SEBTS my 35-year collection of rare material including those issues and Robert Norton's valuable 1861 book.)

We've just had a glimpse of vengeful and power-crazy fanaticism within the very earliest pretrib rapture group. But where in the Bible did those deluded Britishers find support for such "rapture rage"? And where are the followers of Christ commanded to pick up a sword and conquer or convert non-believers with it - or even support such sword-bearers? Why have so many Christian Zionists, who seemingly give more attention to governments than to their Gospel, turned the Great Commission into the Great Commotion?

Many of the above historical details are in my 300-page book "The Rapture Plot," the most complete and documented history of the 176-year-old pretribulation rapture merchandised today by Hagee, LaHaye, Falwell, Lindsey, Swaggart, Van Impe etc. for their pet agendas - an escapist view never taught by any church for 1800 years! If you don't have time for my book, I invite you to read my internet items including "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "Deceiving and Being Deceived," "Famous Rapture Watchers," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "The Rapture Index (Mad Theology)," and "Pretrib Hypocrisy."

All of my royalties, by the way, have always gone to a nonprofit corporation and not to me or anyone else. Interested in obtaining my unique "Plot" book? Just call 800.643.4645 or visit online bookstores. (Type in "Scholars Weigh My Research" on Google etc. to read endorsements of it by leading scholars.)

Do Hagee and his fellow preachers really love Jewish persons as much as they say they do? Then why do they pervert Scripture to try to get themselves raptured off earth before their future and final "tribulation" instead of wanting to remain on earth during that period to minister love to ALL of earth's citizens?

Hagee stated on July 19, 2006 that "The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West...." Which Bible verse inspired him to utter this - the one that says "Love ye your enemies" or the one saying "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord"?

It would appear that Hagee, Falwell and other pretrib rapture merchandisers and Christian Zionists are trying to identify with the predicted group whose love will "wax cold" (a la Matthew 24:12) during what Hagee etc. see in the future as earth's darkest days!


http://poweredbychrist.com/Armageddonism.html

[berkeley]

good article.

[TK Burk]

Interesting article, EB. Wasn't such prophecy a big issue with President Reagan?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Here is something interesting from a Historicist site.
http://1335.com/temple.html

[RevDWW]

So what you are saying is that there will be no single son of perdition, man of sin, The AntiChrist?

By the way I'm all for a pre-wrath catching away of the Bride......

[Ferd]

EvangBenincasa, did you have to go and do that???


BTW, my view of the future is this, God will or will not come back before I am dead. there will or will not be a rapture.

I will go to heaven as I fully intend to live my life for Christ.

the rest is academic... and concerning the future, no man knoweth.

[Felicity]

I read one LaHaye book and have never read another.

Not interested. :nah

[deacon blues]

The misinterpreted Thessalonians scriptures cannot fit other passages.

How does Daniel 7fit into such an interpretation? The Ancient of Days sits on the throne. Judgment is set. The books are opened. The beast is destroyed in the flames. Jesus is seen being given the Kingdom. The saints are given the Kingdom. The beast is seen making war with the saints. He prevails against them until Christ returns. He shall speak words against the Most High. His dominion will be taken away. The Kingdom will be established forever. the saints shall possess the Kingdom. The kingdoms of the world and the nations of the earth will serve and obey the Most High. It says "this is the end of the matter."

You can't spiritualize that! It talks about a HE will make war with the saints. Not carnal man. Not the spirit of the world. A person who will have dominion in the world. Has the Lord taken the throne of the Kingdom? Are nations of the earth serving and obeying Him?

You are making the classic mistake of taking one passage of scripture and postulating an interpretation that sort of seems plausible. But the interpretation does not hold water in the light of other scriptures.

There are plenty of other passages the support the notion that this is more than just a system or an attitude or an overall spirit. There will be an individual who will embody all that is anti-christ. It is safe AND biblical to call him THE Anti-Christ.

[Ferd]

I read one LaHaye book and have never read another.

Not interested. :nah


I read several of the left behind novels. the intest being in the story, not in any actual biblical backing.

I didnt read them all.

[Scott Hutchinson]

That Antichrist spirit is alive in the world today.
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:and this is that Spirit of antichrist,whereof ye have heard that it should come;and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:3

[mfblume]

The misinterpreted Thessalonians scriptures cannot fit other passages.

How does Daniel 7fit into such an interpretation? The Ancient of Days sits on the throne. Judgment is set. The books are opened. The beast is destroyed in the flames. Jesus is seen being given the Kingdom. The saints are given the Kingdom. The beast is seen making war with the saints. He prevails against them until Christ returns. He shall speak words against the Most High. His dominion will be taken away. The Kingdom will be established forever. the saints shall possess the Kingdom. The kingdoms of the world and the nations of the earth will serve and obey the Most High. It says "this is the end of the matter."

You can't spiritualize that! It talks about a HE will make war with the saints. Not carnal man. Not the spirit of the world. A person who will have dominion in the world. Has the Lord taken the throne of the Kingdom? Are nations of the earth serving and obeying Him?

You are making the classic mistake of taking one passage of scripture and postulating an interpretation that sort of seems plausible. But the interpretation does not hold water in the light of other scriptures.

There are plenty of other passages the support the notion that this is more than just a system or an attitude or an overall spirit. There will be an individual who will embody all that is anti-christ. It is safe AND biblical to call him THE Anti-Christ.


Nothing in 1 John or 2 John indicates we can call a single man THE ANTICHRIST. I cannot agree with you here. Again... .what is there about simply denying Jesus came in flesh that has to do with a single military world leader that is not already in anyone who rejects Christianity????

[Scott Hutchinson]

Also here is a question when Paul wrote these scriptures to the church In Thessalonica what did they mean to them ?

[mfblume]

1Co 6:13 KJV Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1Co 6:19 KJV What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

SIMILAR TO...

2Th 2:4 KJV Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:8 KJV And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[mfblume]

So you are saying the son of perdition is not anti Christ when he exalts himself against and above Christ? He's not trying to have world domination?

ANYONE who denies Jesus is antichrist, whether they seek world domination or not. ANTICHRIST is simply denying Jesus came in flesh. It would be as odd to say such a leader is THE ANTICHRIST as it would be to say "THE SINNER is going to take over the world." ANYONE is a sinner who is not saved, as much as ANYONE is antichrist who denies Christ. What is the difference?

[Scott Hutchinson]

How could scriptures that talk about a Holy place apply to us today if there is no present Temple in Jerusalem ?

[deacon blues]

Nothing in 1 John or 2 John indicates we can call a single man THE ANTICHRIST. I cannot agree with you here. Again... .what is there about simply denying Jesus came in flesh that has to do with a single military world leader that is not already in anyone who rejects Christianity????

Nothing in I John???

You must not be reading carefully or haven't given much time to study on this subject. Check out I John 2:18:

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John makes the distinction between a plurality of antichrists and a singular antichrist. Antichrist is a spirit that will manifest itself in two ways: a system by which the world will oppose Jesus and an individual leader that will lead that system.

You don't have the scriptural suppoert to back up this claim. The doctrine of the Antichrist is replete throughout Daniel who talks about the prince that should come, the beast, the little horn. Paul talks about him as the son of perdition the man of sin. John talks about him in Revelation as the beast.

An individual leader who has dominion and world influence at the time of the end is found over and over again in scripture. John's epistles address both the individual called Antichrist and the spirit that exisits alread in the world.

Where is the scriptural proof for your claim?

[deacon blues]

1Co 6:13 KJV Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1Co 6:19 KJV What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

SIMILAR TO...

2Th 2:4 KJV Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:8 KJV And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The NT temple of the Holy Ghost is the NT believers body. But there is plenty of evidence in scripture that the temple of the Jews will be rebuilt. They are even now preparing to rebuild the temple. Jesus said that the A. of D. will stand in the holy place. When that happens the great tribulation begins acc. to Mt. 24.

You are piece mealing the scriptures to support your doctrine, but it fails to pass muster when applied to the WHOLE of the Bible.

[deacon blues]

ANYONE who denies Jesus is antichrist, whether they seek world domination or not. ANTICHRIST is simply denying Jesus came in flesh. It would be as odd to say such a leader is THE ANTICHRIST as it would be to say "THE SINNER is going to take over the world." ANYONE is a sinner who is not saved, as much as ANYONE is antichrist who denies Christ. What is the difference?

Huge difference.

The Bible specifically states that there will be an individual who will make war with the saints, have dominion on the earth for three and half years, will have a mouth speaking great things, will have a religion built around him as he claims divine prerogatives, will desecrate the rebuilt temple of the Jews, and will come in military mught against Jerusalem.

Why can't you concede that there can be BOTH a spirit of antichrist and an individual that will be possessed by that spirit and embody everything the Bible says about that spirit?

[deacon blues]

How could scriptures that talk about a Holy place apply to us today if there is no present Temple in Jerusalem ?

Its a prophecy yet to be fulfilled.

[RevDWW]

Huge difference.

The Bible specifically states that there will be an individual who will make war with the saints, have dominion on the earth for three and half years, will have a mouth speaking great things, will have a religion built around him as he claims divine prerogatives, will desecrate the rebuilt temple of the Jews, and will come in military mught against Jerusalem.

Why can't you concede that there can be BOTH a spirit of antichrist and an individual that will be possessed by that spirit and embody everything the Bible says about that spirit?

Interesting points!!!! :highfive

[mfblume]

The NT temple of the Holy Ghost is the NT believers body. But there is plenty of evidence in scripture that the temple of the Jews will be rebuilt. They are even now preparing to rebuild the temple. Jesus said that the A. of D. will stand in the holy place. When that happens the great tribulation begins acc. to Mt. 24.

You are piece mealing the scriptures to support your doctrine, but it fails to pass muster when applied to the WHOLE of the Bible.

Speaking of the whole of the bible, reaidng the WHOLE of Matthew 24 says that the same generation who sees the temple destroyed stone by stone would see ALL the events listed in Matt 24. And Jesus spoke to the generation standing in front of Him. And the temple was destroyed stone by stone in AD70.

He sad YOU YOU YOU YOU would hear and see, speaking to the people standing there that day. Not people who were not there 2000 years later.

[mfblume]

Huge difference.

The Bible specifically states that there will be an individual who will make war with the saints, have dominion on the earth for three and half years, will have a mouth speaking great things, will have a religion built around him as he claims divine prerogatives, will desecrate the rebuilt temple of the Jews, and will come in military mught against Jerusalem.

Why can't you concede that there can be BOTH a spirit of antichrist and an individual that will be possessed by that spirit and embody everything the Bible says about that spirit?

I think you read nothing I said.

There is NO DIFFERENCE between calling any certain person THE SINNER than THE ANTICHRIST. To say different is to simply retain a traditional idea out of pure desire to retain it, alone. Not for Bible truth's sake.

[mfblume]

Nothing in I John???

You must not be reading carefully or haven't given much time to study on this subject. Check out I John 2:18:

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Did you read that? John said that any thought of "antichrist should come" is blown away with the idea that there were MANY ANTICHRISTS in John's day. And John said that in HIS DAY, 2000 years ago, they were in the "LAST TIME".

John makes the distinction between a plurality of antichrists and a singular antichrist. Antichrist is a spirit that will manifest itself in two ways: a system by which the world will oppose Jesus and an individual leader that will lead that system.

No way. It is one who denies Jesus came in FLESH ALONE.

You don't have the scriptural suppoert to back up this claim.

I have NOTHING BUT scriptural support. Nothing John said was ANYTHING SIMILAR to your sion of perdition. You are simply taking one verse from an unrelated issue and juggling it together with words of John that concerned HIS DAY and spirits and people (PLURAL) who deny Jesus' incarnation.

The doctrine of the Antichrist is replete throughout Daniel who talks about the prince that should come, the beast, the little horn. Paul talks about him as the son of perdition the man of sin. John talks about him in Revelation as the beast.

No, the beast is not any antichrist. That is a false tradition based upon juggling together unrelated scritpures. Who said the little horn is the beast of Rev and the "son of perdition" in 2 Thess and the "antichrist" of 1 John.

An individual leader who has dominion and world influence at the time of the end is found over and over again in scripture.

No, the spirit of antichrist denies Jesus came in flesh, with nothing to do with world domination. The little horn of Daniel is Antiochus Epiphanes of pre-Christ years in Grecian conquests. The Beast of Revelation is a character who woudl do his dirty work "shortly" after John was told about him in Revelation, not thousands of years after. Every single one of these are unrelated to the other.

John's epistles address both the individual called Antichrist and the spirit that exisits alread in the world.

Where is the scriptural proof for your claim?

Read this and show me where it says that antichrist is a world dictator:

1Jo 4:1-3 KJV Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1Jo 2:22 KJV Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2Jo 1:7 KJV For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1Jo 2:18 KJV Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


NOTHING in the above says ANYTHING about a world dictator.

When would Rev come to pass? Daniel was told to seal the book because the time of the end was not yet, and that was only 500 years before John was told to NOT seal it because the time was at hand.

Dan 12:4 KJV But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Dan 12:9 KJV And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Rev 22:10 KJV And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.


Couple that together with:

1Jo 2:18 KJV Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


IT IS THE LAST TIME, John said. Daniel was told to seal the book because the time of the end was not yet. But John, who said "IT IS THE LAST TIME" also was told to not seal the book because the time was AT HAND.

You cannot allow for these verses. Sorry, I bought that game for far too long before I started actually reading these verses. :)

[RevDWW]

Speaking of Matt 24; when did this take place?

Matthew 24:29 - Matthew 24:31 (KJV) 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

Seems the underlined portion reminds me of another verse that talks about a catching away.........

[mfblume]

You did not answer nor address my points, Revdww. What about the sealing of the book UNTIL the end?

Your reference is not the rapture or catching away. That is written about in other parts of the bible. Reading from Matthew 21 through all the way to the end of chapter 24, shows the entire context of Israel contrasted with the Church, and how what Israel would become bereft of what the church would possess instead. Every parable and every instance in those chapters is either about that or about warning the church to remain true to Christ or else lose out as well. And then when we come to the end of Matthew 23, we read this, similar in words to your quote:

Mat 23:36-38 KJV Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 24:31 KJV And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:34 KJV Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (including temple destruction of AD70)


What is the gathering together above about? Rapture? Of course not. And contrasting that with your reference, we see it is GATHERING IN SAFETY from a coming destruction. God would have gathered Jerusalem together, but now the elect church alone is gathered from that destruction.

Again, the people to whom Jesus spoke would see ALL those things. And that included the temple destruction of AD70.

THANK GOD THE EARLY CHURCH TOOK THOSE WORDS AS REFERRING TO THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND FLED TO PELLA AND NOT A CHRISTIAN PERISHED THAT DAY. That is HISTORY.

Luk 21:20-21 KJV And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Mat 24:16 KJV Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


What would only those in Judaea being told to flee have anything to do with a world-wide tribulation where everyone everywhere would have to flee???

Those in Judaea flee. They would be gathered together IN SAFETY, as a hen gathers her chicks.

[mfblume]

John was told:

Rev 1:1 KJV The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


Rev 1:3 KJV Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:6 KJV And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:7 KJV Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 3:11 KJV Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev 22:10 KJV And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

The only way this makes sense, in light of Daniel, 500 years earlier, being told to SEAL the book until the time of the end, and John told to NOT seal it because the time was at hand, is to realize that it occurred in far less a time than 500 years from John's day.

Does AT HAND mean thousands of years later???

Mat 3:2 KJV And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

[deacon blues]

John was told:

Rev 1:1 KJV The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


Rev 1:3 KJV Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:6 KJV And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:7 KJV Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 3:11 KJV Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev 22:10 KJV And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

The only way this makes sense, in light of Daniel, 500 years earlier, being told to SEAL the book until the time of the end, and John told to NOT seal it because the time was at hand, is to realize that it occurred in far less a time than 500 years from John's day.

Does AT HAND mean thousands of years later???

Mat 3:2 KJV And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

I'll indulge you.

So, where are we now? Is this the thousand year reign of Christ? It seems u r saying that prohecy has been fulfilled. What's left? Why are we still here?

[onlygrace]

I'll indulge you.

So, where are we now? Is this the thousand year reign of Christ? It seems u r saying that prohecy has been fulfilled. What's left? Why are we still here?

Luke 1

33And he will reign over Israel forever; his Kingdom will never end!”

According to Scripture, His Kingdom will never end. Maybe that's why we're still here.:largehalo

[berkeley]

Luke 1

33And he will reign over Israel forever; his Kingdom will never end!”

According to Scripture, His Kingdom will never end. Maybe that's why we're still here.:largehalo

LoL

[Trouvere]

T,

Please pray for those who cannot let their faith stretch ... and hold on to a brick wall theology.

Sorry Daniel I missed this post.Did you research Darbyism? If I prayed for those you mentioned then how would I pray for anything else? It would
take up all my time.Maybe I will have time inbetween private devotion,
bible study,teaching a class and working four twelve hour shifts a week.
hum...I don't know what do you think?Maybe after jail ministry.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Since it is the carnal spirit that is enmity with God, I would suggest that the man of sin would be that carnal man that opposes all that is Godly, and exalts himself to rule the Temple of God as his own.

Those that are of the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but those that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

:amen

[Evang.Benincasa]

Nope. We are the temple of God, as you rightly said. So the Man of Sin scripturally will sit in us and exalt himself above God. I espouse that the Man of Sin is the carnal fleshly spirit within each of us that if not crucified will rule us instead of God ruling us.

:hug4

[Evang.Benincasa]

Lying signs and wonders.


Unless you believe that Gods temple is a place in middle east, and not our bodies, then this is a sound reasoning.


:happydance

[philjones]

Speaking of Matt 24; when did this take place?

Matthew 24:29 - Matthew 24:31 (KJV) 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

Seems the underlined portion reminds me of another verse that talks about a catching away.........

Just my view and opinion... I have always viewed this as ocurring at the cross! This is speaking of Jesus himself and his resurrection after having taken the keys from the enemy!

[Trouvere]

:happydance

Brother you are having too much fun.:killinme

[mizpeh]

Bro Blume,

My understanding of the end times is similar to Deacon's.

I'm curious how you interpret the prophecies of the Messiah? They seem to be literally understood by the apostles. Why would you spiritualize the prophecies of the His second coming?

[Steve Epley]

Bro Blume,

My understanding of the end times is similar to Deacon's.

I'm curious how you interpret the prophecies of the Messiah? They seem to be literally understood by the apostles. Why would you spiritualize the prophecies of the His second coming?

Now there is a thought nearly every OT prophecy was LITERALLY fulfilled BUT all NT prophecies are metaphors and symbols.
Behold a virgin shall concieve. The fun they would have with that.
He was wounded for our trangressions. and the list goes on.

He went away in a literal body in a literal cloud and he is returning the SAME as he went away.

[mfblume]

Now there is a thought nearly every OT prophecy was LITERALLY fulfilled BUT all NT prophecies are metaphors and symbols.

Incorrect, brother.


There are BOTH Old Testament prophecies that are metaphors as well as literal, and the same goes for the New Testament.

And I have not shown any reference in the New Testament that refers to the second coming to be a metaphor. The coming of the Lord in Matt 24 is NOT the second coming which is the rapture. It is ONLY a coming of the Lord in destruction against Jerusalem and israel.

I have detailed this before to you, and I would appreciate it so blessedly much if you keep this in mind next time, so as to avoid misrepresentation of what we believe and teach. :D

Watch:

METAPHOR:

Isa 11:1 KJV And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Jer 23:5 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Zec 3:8 KJV Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.


LITERAL:

Isa 7:14 KJV Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


And regarding the New Testament:

LITERAL:

1Co 15:23 KJV But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:15-17 KJV For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Joh 5:28-29 KJV Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



He went away in a literal body in a literal cloud and he is returning the SAME as he went away.

Exactly! When did I ever say otherwise?

But for you to say there are NO symbolic scriptures in the Old Testament about Jesus' FIRST coming is to simply misrepresent the BIBLE!

:D

Isa 40:3-4 KJV The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. (4) Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

[mfblume]

I'll indulge you.

So, where are we now? Is this the thousand year reign of Christ? It seems u r saying that prohecy has been fulfilled. What's left? Why are we still here?

You have not yet responded to my points. Let's not ask OTHER questions in response to verses we cannot answer. Let's seek to answer what we've been given by others. Please explain to me why daniel was told to seal the book since the time of the end was not yet come, and John was told to not seal them since the time was at hand. Please explain why this was stated when Daniel lived only 500 years before John? THAT would truly be indulging me. :)

[mfblume]

Bro Blume,

My understanding of the end times is similar to Deacon's.

I'm curious how you interpret the prophecies of the Messiah? They seem to be literally understood by the apostles. Why would you spiritualize the prophecies of the His second coming?

Thanks for you kindly-asked question.

I have not spiritualized the prophecies of the second coming. The prophecies of the second coming are all literal in the New Testament as far as I can tell. There may be a couple that are spiritualized. But the references in Matt 24 and Luke 21 are not speaking about the second coming. The coming in destruction in Matt 24 and Matt 21 and Luke 21 are not the second coming. The second coming is mentioned in John 5, 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, Acts 24, Hebrews 9, amongst other places.

[SDG]

bumperooski

[mfblume]

I did some YOUTUBE videos on this issue. Dare to watch? lol I share exactly what Daniel mentioned at the start of this thread. Right on, Daniel!

WHAT IS THE ANTICHRIST?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WZ1TS1BKbpk

[mfblume]

And this next video begins a series about what the GENUINE SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST is about - THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. LEGALISM!

6 Short videos.

I think the devil sidetracked folks away from the truth towards some sort of mythical world dominator, since it is actually the original temptation to man found in the forbidden tree . My lessons show how CHRISTIANS still partake of the forbidden fruit.

http://youtube.com/user/mfblume2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz8rWwQOpZ8

[Scott Hutchinson]

Maybe this might help somebody here.
http://upwardcall.net/rapture.html

[ApostolicTexas]

Now there is a thought nearly every OT prophecy was LITERALLY fulfilled BUT all NT prophecies are metaphors and symbols.
Behold a virgin shall concieve. The fun they would have with that.
He was wounded for our trangressions. and the list goes on.

He went away in a literal body in a literal cloud and he is returning the SAME as he went away.

Interesting that Jesus did not appear to the Apostle Paul in a literal body..the same one He left with :) those of Acts 1:11 were the last witnesses to see that glorified body Jesus left with..and no one has seen it since or ever will on this earth..God no longer needs the body of Jesus today!The mission has been accomplished!! the blood was shed..the blood was provided and the body entered the Holy of Holies..to present the sacrafice FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!..The last enemy to be destroyed was death..and this is a done deal!!!..

[mfblume]

That body sits on the throne of David, the right hand position of power, in glory today. The most oft-quoted Old Testament verse in the New is Psalm 110:1. He sits at the right hand throne now, ruling in the midst of His enemies. A body sits. :)