Does Faith Proceed Regeneration or does Regeneration Proceed Faith ?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Does faith proceed regeneration ? Or does regeneration proceed faith ?
Can unregenerate persons really have a Holy faith in Christ ?
Or do unregenerate persons place faith in Christ to obtain regeneration ?

[MissBrattified]

Faith comes first.

[ReformedDave]

Does faith proceed regeneration ? Or does regeneration proceed faith ?
Can unregenerate persons really have a Holy faith in Christ ?
Or do unregenerate persons place faith in Christ to obtain regeneration ?

With questions like this you are not too far from the kingdom....:poloroid

[crakjak]

Does faith proceed regeneration ? Or does regeneration proceed faith ?
Can unregenerate persons really have a Holy faith in Christ ?
Or do unregenerate persons place faith in Christ to obtain regeneration ?

How do you define regeneration?
Faith comes first, it is the gift of God.

[Praxeas]

Do all have a measure of faith?

[mizpeh]

Does faith proceed regeneration ? Or does regeneration proceed faith ?
Can unregenerate persons really have a Holy faith in Christ ?
Or do unregenerate persons place faith in Christ to obtain regeneration ?

Which came first the chicken or the egg? the chicken.

1) faith comes first. Our salvation comes by the grace of God through faith.

2) Faith is not holy. An unregenerate person cannot be regenerated without faith.

3) Unregenerate are not degenerates. Faith and repentance alone do not regenerate a soul. The regeneration comes with the new birth of water and Spirit.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5

[Scott Hutchinson]

With questions like this you are not too far from the kingdom....:poloroid

You what I'm doing don't you ? I'm asking questions that Reformed folks ask ,I thought if would be interesting to ask these sort of questions to Oneness Pentecostals.

[Pastor Keith]

Does faith proceed regeneration ? Or does regeneration proceed faith ?
Can unregenerate persons really have a Holy faith in Christ ?
Or do unregenerate persons place faith in Christ to obtain regeneration ?

Regeneration happens at the birth of the Spirit. Which comes after an expression of faith.

[Neck]

Does faith proceed regeneration ? Or does regeneration proceed faith ?
Can unregenerate persons really have a Holy faith in Christ ?
Or do unregenerate persons place faith in Christ to obtain regeneration ?

The question can be answered like this:

What would be the need for faith, if one was already regenerated?

Unless one would believe that regeneration is the beginning of Faith and faith the beginning of regeneration.

Saving grace "begins" at the "whosoever believeth".

The interesting thing to me is John 3:15...That whosoever believeth in him, "should" not perish but have everlasting life.

The word "should" is defined today to mean: an auxilary word expressing obligation, necessity, anticipation, contingency, or uncertainty.

If you understand the flow of the word "should" you understand that redemption is not guaranteed at believing alone.

So regeneration to me begins at believing and is completed by the death, burial and resurrection experience.

[Adino]

Does faith proceed regeneration ? Or does regeneration proceed faith ?Great question. I would say they are simultaneous realities. The miracle of the heart converted is the miracle of the heart born again, i.e., regenerated.

The heart awakened to faith in repentance is the heart which has passed from death unto life (John 5:24). It is the heart which has been granted repentance unto life (Acts 11:18). It is the heart born again (regenerated).

Since the heart turns to Christ in repentance, the heart passes from death unto life in repentance. The heart is quickened to new life and is thus made regenerate at the moment of faith. Repentance is unto faith and thus unto life for he that believeth is passed from death unto life.

He that believeth (in repentance): “hath everlasting life” (John 3:15-16, 36; 6:40,47; 11:26), “is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24; 11:25), “dwelleth in God, and God in him” (1John 3:23-24), “hath the witness [the Spirit] in himself” (1John 5:10), “is born of God” (1John 5:1; John 1:12-13).

Can unregenerate persons really have a Holy faith in Christ ?No

Or do unregenerate persons place faith in Christ to obtain regenerationUnregenerate persons inclined toward God in repentance convert to Christ in faith. This conversion is a regenerative act of God.

Again, great question.

[Raven]

Great question. I would say they are simultaneous realities. The miracle of the heart converted is the miracle of the heart born again, i.e., regenerated.

The heart awakened to faith in repentance is the heart which has passed from death unto life (John 5:24). It is the heart which has been granted repentance unto life (Acts 11:18). It is the heart born again (regenerated).

Since the heart turns to Christ in repentance, the heart passes from death unto life in repentance. The heart is quickened to new life and is thus made regenerate at the moment of faith. Repentance is unto faith and thus unto life for he that believeth is passed from death unto life.

He that believeth (in repentance): “hath everlasting life” (John 3:15-16, 36; 6:40,47; 11:26), “is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24; 11:25), “dwelleth in God, and God in him” (1John 3:23-24), “hath the witness [the Spirit] in himself” (1John 5:10), “is born of God” (1John 5:1; John 1:12-13).

No

Unregenerate persons inclined toward God in repentance convert to Christ in faith. This conversion is a regenerative act of God.

Again, great question.
Amen!!!

[Adino]

Thanks for the support, Raven. I hope I don't lose your support by adding this to my last post.

While it is true, in the chronological sense, that regeneration and faith happen simultaneously, it is also true, in the theological sense, that regeneration precedes faith. It is, in fact, a regenerative work of God which enables faith to fully come into existence.

This kind of talk confuses many because they do not recognize that a theological sequence of spiritual realities does not necessarily demand a chronological sequence of events. In other words, a sequence of theological truths can happen in a single moment of time.

This thread points out what I feel is one of the greatest weaknesses of the water/spirit new birth theory. There must be a logical answer given for the miracle of the awakened/converted heart and the presence of spiritual life before water baptism and a tongues experience.

In correspondence with David Bernard he offered me Romans 12:3 in an attempt to say all men are given a little bit of faith. This falls short of answering the dilemma because the "measure of faith" spoken of here does not mean a "portion of faith" is granted to all men. It means that a "standard of faith" is given to all men... and that standard of faith is Christ. We are to renew our minds in accordance with the truth that God has given all men a single standard of faith and that standard of faith is a faith in Christ. We are to present our bodies a living sacrifice before God in light of our faith in Christ and realize we are all members of a single body by virtue of this standard.

The water/spirit position falls short in explaining the reality of a living heart of faith prior to water baptism and a tongues experience. While Bernard admits to the Spirit of God indwelling the heart at conversion he makes sure to further define this conversion as a "full conversion" and that any miracle of awakening in the heart prior to this "full conversion" is only part of the conversion process. This partial conversion is enabled by the grace of God.

That man can be partially converted unto life is simple theological nonsense. This leads to some sort of state of half saved limbo. Either life is present or it is not. Either the Spirit is present or it is not. Either one is born again or he is not. There is a moment in time in which man crosses from death unto life. This is the moment of regeneration. This is the moment of faith. This is the moment of salvation.

Sorry for ranting....

[mizpeh]

Thanks for the support, Raven. I hope I don't lose your support by adding this to my last post.

While it is true, in the chronological sense, that regeneration and faith happen simultaneously, it is also true, in the theological sense, that regeneration precedes faith. It is, in fact, a regenerative work of God which enables faith to fully come into existence.

This kind of talk confuses many because they do not recognize that a theological sequence of spiritual realities does not necessarily demand a chronological sequence of events. In other words, a sequence of theological truths can happen in a single moment of time.

This thread points out what I feel is one of the greatest weaknesses of the water/spirit new birth theory. There must be a logical answer given for the miracle of the awakened/converted heart and the presence of spiritual life before water baptism and a tongues experience.Adino, the miracle is begun by the grace of God. Without our knowing or realizing what is happening, He draws the unregenerated to himself. God knows when our hearts are open to hear the gospel. He knows when the timing is right for each one of us. And when we hear the word of God, faith or belief in the word of God rises up within the unbeliever and repentance follows. Rom 10:11

I don't see how faith and repentance can come at the same time. Otherwise in Acts 2 why didn't those listening to Peter's speech repent without having been told to do so? Obviously they believed the word Peter spoke for they were pricked in their hearts, yet they didn't instantaneously repent. They were told to repent.

Is your definition for regeneration the new birth? or to be born again? Are you suggesting that our birth into the kingdom of God, when we become sons and daughters of God starts with God bringing us to faith in Christ?



The water/spirit position falls short in explaining the reality of a living heart of faith prior to water baptism and a tongues experience. While Bernard admits to the Spirit of God indwelling the heart at conversion he makes sure to further define this conversion as a "full conversion" and that any miracle of awakening in the heart prior to this "full conversion" is only part of the conversion process. This partial conversion is enabled by the grace of God.From what I gather, your understanding of a Christian's spiritual birth process is complete at faith. If this were so why all the verses on baptisms, water and Spirit? If we receive the indwelling Spirit at faith what further need is there for any type of baptism. Our sins have been blotted out and we already have the Spirit when or at the point of faith.

You are teaching a 'birthing process' similar to Bernard's but your ending point is premature. It sounds like you both start at the same place, the inception of faith. So how can you say 'regeneration precedes faith'? The inception of conception is the beginning of the regeneration process which you say ends at repentance.

That man can be partially converted unto life is simple theological nonsense. This leads to some sort of state of half saved limbo.
That's your opinion and a dilemma of your own making. What would you say of the one who hears the word and believes but isn't ready to submit to the word of God? They say in their heart "not now, I want to fool around in the world a little longer. I'll serve God later"? They believe/have faith but there is no repentance. Does the regeneration which started with God bringing faith into their hearts through the entering in of his word into this persons heart abruptly end? Is this a partial conversion by your definition?

Either life is present or it is not. Either the Spirit is present or it is not. Either one is born again or he is not. There is a moment in time in which man crosses from death unto life. This is the moment of regeneration. This is the moment of faith. This is the moment of salvation.Now you've limited the new birth to a moment in time. A point in time. You've eliminated the process which brought that baby to birth and have given birth to a baby without conception, incubation, and finally birth.

[SDG]

While Bernard admits to the Spirit of God indwelling the heart at conversion he makes sure to further define this conversion as a "full conversion" and that any miracle of awakening in the heart prior to this "full conversion" is only part of the conversion process. This partial conversion is enabled by the grace of God.

Wow, does Bernard really admit this .... is this a quote from a book ...or a direct quote

[SDG]

That's your opinion and a dilemma of your own making. What would you say of the one who hears the word and believes but isn't ready to submit to the word of God? They say in their heart "not now, I want to fool around in the world a little longer. I'll serve God later"? They believe/have faith but there is no repentance. Does the regeneration which started with God bringing faith into their hearts through the entering in of his word into this persons heart abruptly end? Is this a partial conversion by your definition

The faith/belief you speak of is mental assent and not biblical faith, Mizpeh.

[SDG]

Now you've limited the new birth to a moment in time. A point in time. You've eliminated the process which brought that baby to birth and have given birth to a baby without conception, incubation, and finally birth.Why must spiritual birth fit our paradigms of physical birth ... 3 steppers love their analogies. We're talking about being BORN OF GOD ... not man ... being born of the one who speaks things into being.

You were right, Adino ...

This kind of talk confuses many because they do not recognize that a theological sequence of spiritual realities does not necessarily demand a chronological sequence of events. In other words, a sequence of theological truths can happen in a single moment of time.

[Adino]

Mizpeh, don't think of being born again as a process of natural child birth. You miss the point when you do so because the natural birth analogy is extremely weak and misleading. The question you should be asking yourself is, "why is abortion murder?" The answer, of course, is because it is the taking of an existing LIFE.

A person is a child of God the moment the word of God "gives birth" to new life in the heart. The heart is born again from the dead unto life. It is "made alive" again. It is "re (again)" "generated (birthed)".

I don't see how faith and repentance can come at the same time. Otherwise in Acts 2 why didn't those listening to Peter's speech repent without having been told to do so? Obviously they believed the word Peter spoke for they were pricked in their hearts, yet they didn't instantaneously repent. They were told to repent.

That they were pricked in their hearts does not mean those in Acts 2 had faith in Christ. Biblical repentance was a turning away from iniquity and a turning toward God through faith in Christ. The message was repentance and faith toward God. Those in Acts 2 who had killed Christ came to realize they had done something wrong. They came to recognize their depravity. Peter declared that God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ, thus declaring Jesus Christ to be the object of the repentant heart's faith. Peter is helping those in Acts 2 to understand that Jesus Christ, the one they killed, is the very answer to their dilemma.

While those in Acts 2 did ultimately move to faith in Christ they did not do so prior to vs 38. Their hearts were "pricked" but no indication is given that they had passed into true faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Peter in vs 38 answers their query by preaching repentance and faith toward God via Christ [as did Paul in Acts 20:20-21]. What were they to do after having killed the Messiah? (v37) They were to repent of their having rejected this Jesus of Nazareth as their Christ and now place their faith in him for their salvation. They were to be baptized in declaration of their repentance and new found faith in Christ.

Is your definition for regeneration the new birth? or to be born again? Are you suggesting that our birth into the kingdom of God, when we become sons and daughters of God starts with God bringing us to faith in Christ?The new birth takes place when the heart is born again from the dead. Those who receive Christ and are thus born again of God are those given the privilege of being called the sons of God (John 1:12-13).

From what I gather, your understanding of a Christian's spiritual birth process is complete at faith.Yes

If this were so why all the verses on baptisms, water and Spirit? If we receive the indwelling Spirit at faith what further need is there for any type of baptism. Our sins have been blotted out and we already have the Spirit when or at the point of faith.Baptism was a baptism "of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:3; Luke 3:3). Baptism was an act which outwardly declared the internal repentance and faith of the heart. Remission of sins came within the confines of the heart at the moment the repenting heart turned to faith in God through Christ. Men who had come to saving faith in Christ were to confess this faith to the church in order to be welcomed into the community at large. The church was to be built on a confession of Christ (Matthew 16:13-18). This confession took place at the ritual of baptism. Man believed with the heart unto righteousness before God and with the mouth confession was made before men in order to be accepted in the Christian community as being saved (Romans 10:10). The salvation man receives in the confines of his soul before God is declared before men in the act of baptism.

So how can you say 'regeneration precedes faith'? The inception of conception is the beginning of the regeneration process which you say ends at repentance.The heart of man is spiritually dead until it is quickened to life by the Spirit of God in his word. While man can arrive to a place of recognition of his depravity before the Almighty he cannot come to saving faith in God until his repentant heart turns to Jesus Christ. Faith in God must be through Christ. The heart spiritually dead is quickened/made alive by the word of life, i.e., the Gospel of Christ. Those who have faith (in God through Christ) have passed from death unto life.

He that believeth (in God through Christ): “hath everlasting life” (John 3:15-16, 36; 6:40,47; 11:26), “is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24; 11:25), “dwelleth in God, and God in him” (1John 3:23-24), “hath the witness [the Spirit] in himself” (1John 5:10), “is born of God” (1John 5:1; John 1:12-13).

What would you say of the one who hears the word and believes but isn't ready to submit to the word of God? They say in their heart "not now, I want to fool around in the world a little longer. I'll serve God later"? They believe/have faith but there is no repentance. Does the regeneration which started with God bringing faith into their hearts through the entering in of his word into this persons heart abruptly end? Is this a partial conversion by your definition?I would say that the one you've defined has not been converted to faith in Christ. Faith is not mere mental assent as many have mistakenly assumed. Faith is notitia (knowledge) + assensus (theoretical mental assent) + FIDUCIA (trust). The heart which has not fully come to a complete dependence in Christ for salvation has not come to saving faith. Repentance demands a returning to God through a complete dependency on Christ. Once true faith exists in the heart.... so does salvation.

Now you've limited the new birth to a moment in time. A point in time. You've eliminated the process which brought that baby to birth and have given birth to a baby without conception, incubation, and finally birth.Again, the natural birth analogy does not stand. The child who is alive is a child indeed. The heart which is spiritually alive is a child of God indeed.

[Adino]

I have an Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu sword clinic for the next couple of days so I apologize in advance for my slow response to any more discussion. I'll visit again as time allows.

God bless you all

Shelby Smith (aka - Adino)

[SDG]

I have an Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu sword clinic for the next couple of days so I apologize in advance for my slow response to any more discussion. I'll visit again as time allows.

God bless you all

Shelby Smith (aka - Adino)

A master in many disciplines. Carry on, Warrior.

[Adino]

I have an Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu sword clinic for the next couple of days so I apologize in advance for my slow response to any more discussion. I'll visit again as time allows.

God bless you all

Shelby Smith (aka - Adino)Sword clinic was a success. I was able to test for my "Kyoshi" ranking (instructor status just above black belt) in Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu sword today. I also gave an empty hand self defense demo. A buddy of mine gave a knife defense demo. A second buddy of mine did a combat ki demo (taking kicks and punches to body vitals, e.g., throat, solar plexus, groin - today I punched him in the throat a couple of times). Fun, but a long day..... kind of glad it's over.

God bless...