Pastors, how do you handle it when...

[MissBrattified]

...you have a man in your church who is not supporting his family, or at least attempting it, or,

...you have a man in your church who is verbally/physically abusive to his wife and/or children?

Do you rebuke them? Are you heavy handed about these issues? Do you try to handle abusive situations on your own, or do you involve the authorities?

Do you regularly teach/preach to men about how to provide and care for their wives and children?

Just curious...sometimes I wonder if the reason there seems to be a weaker presence of men in some churches because they aren't taught or prompted to be stronger men at home....?

[revrandy]

...you have a man in your church who is not supporting his family, or at least attempting it, or,

...you have a man in your church who is verbally/physically abusive to his wife and/or children?

Do you rebuke them? Are you heavy handed about these issues? Do you try to handle abusive situations on your own, or do you involve the authorities?

Do you regularly teach/preach to men about how to provide and care for their wives and children?

Just curious...sometimes I wonder if the reason there seems to be a weaker presence of men in some churches because they aren't taught or prompted to be stronger men at home....?

I personally tell men who are abusive if I know about it and it happens I will take the responsibility of calling the Police on them myself and press charges.. there is NO reason for abuse in any situation!!!

concerning the man who won't support his family there could be a myraid of issues... depending on the situation... the full story would have to be known..

[MissBrattified]

I personally tell men who are abusive if I know about it and it happens I will take the responsibility of calling the Police on them myself and press charges.. there is NO reason for abuse in any situation!!!

concerning the man who won't support his family there could be a myraid of issues... depending on the situation... the full story would have to be known..

For the sake of conversation, lets just say bluntly...they're lazy and have a history of laziness...so...what is said or done? I do have a reason for asking. :) But I won't reveal it....just yet...if at all.

[revrandy]

For the sake of conversation, lets just say bluntly...they're lazy and have a history of laziness...so...what is said or done? I do have a reason for asking. :) But I won't reveal it....just yet...if at all.

Miss.B... as Long as I've known folks it's hard to change people... you can preach, teach and lead until your blue in the face but if they don't want to change or have a desire to change... it won't happen...

Some folks are happy when their mad...
Some folks are happy when they work...
some are just happy being lazy...

[MissBrattified]

Hmmm...well, I know...but it seems if anyone ought to be saying something ought to change it would be the pastor...(whether privately or over the pulpit).

I do agree, though...folks have to want to change, and even then its hard.

[MissBrattified]

Just to be clear...this is not regarding any man in our church, nor am I questioning any action my pastor has taken on any such issue. Just to remove any discomfort some might feel at discussing this....

revr...what do you think about what I said about men learning how to be strong leaders/providers at home? Do you think that has some correlation to their strength as a Christian overall, or their potential contribution to the church or the strength of the local assembly?

It seems to me if men are weak leaders, lazy providers, or abusive, that it can bleed over into the church setting and produce a weak church environment, or one in which women feel the need to step in and produce better leadership.

[revrandy]

Just to be clear...this is not regarding any man in our church, nor am I questioning any action my pastor has taken on any such issue. Just to remove any discomfort some might feel at discussing this....

revr...what do you think about what I said about men learning how to be strong leaders/providers at home? Do you think that has some correlation to their strength as a Christian overall, or their potential contribution to the church or the strength of the local assembly?

It seems to me if men are weak leaders, lazy providers, or abusive, that it can bleed over into the church setting and produce a weak church environment, or one in which women feel the need to step in and produce better leadership.

I think there needs to be much more teaching on men leading their family...the bible says a man that doesn't work doesn't eat as well as their family...

We can spend all the time in the world preaching on Doctrine, Standards and everything else but is that building the family or faith?

There needs to be a balance of both ministrys...Men struggle now to find a voice because Soceity has weakened them in the eyes of others and themselves...

Anything enviromental will shape behaviors and if a learned behavior is allowed to continue it will foreshadow anything else that comes along...

only until one recieves an ultimatum that exacts a change will those who truly desire to continue will change...

Change is often hard and uncomfortable and yet necessary at times to continue...

There needs to be much more teaching on Leadership and men's role in the Church and Society...

[Nahum]

...you have a man in your church who is not supporting his family, or at least attempting it, or,

...you have a man in your church who is verbally/physically abusive to his wife and/or children?

Do you rebuke them? Are you heavy handed about these issues? Do you try to handle abusive situations on your own, or do you involve the authorities?

Do you regularly teach/preach to men about how to provide and care for their wives and children?

Just curious...sometimes I wonder if the reason there seems to be a weaker presence of men in some churches because they aren't taught or prompted to be stronger men at home....?


This is a very serious issue.

1. Provision:
In I Timothy 5:8 is one of the strongest statements in the Bible: "If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever (infidel)," (RSV).

I believe a man who is lazy and will not provide for his family is lost and headed to Hell. He is as lost as two boys kissing. The perversion stems from the same root of homosexuality - selfishness.

What is an infidel? The Greek word translated "infidel" is apistos, meaning "faithless, unbelieving, without faith."

2. Care
Providing for one's family involves more than just monetary support. It involves providing a safe and secure emotional "home" as well. Physical, emotional, or verbal abuse would destroy any hope of the home as a safe haven.

3. Pastoral response to dead-beats.
I have publicly rebuked twenty-something males in the church I pastor who refused to get a real job. I have told them not to offer any advice as to the direction of the church if they were not even providing for themselves. I have told them they were not eligible to be in any leadership position because of their lack of initiative.

Domestic abuse is not something I wade into. I have a certified Christian counselor that I refer those issues to. Our church tries to cover a portion of the associated fees for such services to hurting families.

I will say that I would call the authorities if I knew any man or woman was beating their spouse. I wouldn't think twice about it. Any male that would hit a woman is a despicable excuse for a human life form.

BTW, I teach biblical family structure on a consistent basis.

[Old Paths]

I have witnessed the pastor, family members and the police intervene only to watch the wife go right back into the same situation.

Why?

I have no idea.

[Rachel]

I will say that I would call the authorities if I knew any man or woman was beating their spouse. I wouldn't think twice about it. Any male that would hit a woman is a despicable excuse for a human life form.



Amen. :)

[revrandy]

I have witnessed the pastor, family members and the police intervene only to watch the wife go right back into the same situation.

Why?

I have no idea.

Love is blind... and dumb sometimes...

[Nahum]

This is a very serious issue.

1. Provision:
In I Timothy 5:8 is one of the strongest statements in the Bible: "If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever (infidel)," (RSV).

I believe a man who is lazy and will not provide for his family is lost and headed to Hell. He is as lost as two boys kissing. The perversion stems from the same root of homosexuality - selfishness.

What is an infidel? The Greek word translated "infidel" is apistos, meaning "faithless, unbelieving, without faith."

2. Care
Providing for one's family involves more than just monetary support. It involves providing a safe and secure emotional "home" as well. Physical, emotional, or verbal abuse would destroy any hope of the home as a safe haven.

3. Pastoral response to dead-beats.
I have publicly rebuked twenty-something males in the church I pastor who refused to get a real job. I have told them not to offer any advice as to the direction of the church if they were not even providing for themselves. I have told them they were not eligible to be in any leadership position because of their lack of initiative.

Domestic abuse is not something I wade into. I have a certified Christian counselor that I refer those issues to. Our church tries to cover a portion of the associated fees for such services to hurting families.

I will say that I would call the authorities if I knew any man or woman was beating their spouse. I wouldn't think twice about it. Any male that would hit a woman is a despicable excuse for a human life form.

BTW, I teach biblical family structure on a consistent basis.

bump for Miss B

[revrandy]

This is a very serious issue.

1. Provision:
In I Timothy 5:8 is one of the strongest statements in the Bible: "If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever (infidel)," (RSV).

I believe a man who is lazy and will not provide for his family is lost and headed to Hell. He is as lost as two boys kissing. The perversion stems from the same root of homosexuality - selfishness.

What is an infidel? The Greek word translated "infidel" is apistos, meaning "faithless, unbelieving, without faith."

2. Care
Providing for one's family involves more than just monetary support. It involves providing a safe and secure emotional "home" as well. Physical, emotional, or verbal abuse would destroy any hope of the home as a safe haven.

3. Pastoral response to dead-beats.
I have publicly rebuked twenty-something males in the church I pastor who refused to get a real job. I have told them not to offer any advice as to the direction of the church if they were not even providing for themselves. I have told them they were not eligible to be in any leadership position because of their lack of initiative.

Domestic abuse is not something I wade into. I have a certified Christian counselor that I refer those issues to. Our church tries to cover a portion of the associated fees for such services to hurting families.

I will say that I would call the authorities if I knew any man or woman was beating their spouse. I wouldn't think twice about it. Any male that would hit a woman is a despicable excuse for a human life form.

BTW, I teach biblical family structure on a consistent basis.

I would also rebuke their parents... imo...

They are a product of their enviroment...until they recieve the word that things must change and there will be a line drawn for them and the Line actually means something...good luck..

This is a lazy generation that expects they must be served... because most that I know lack for nothing concerning their wants...but can't pay for their needs...

[crazyhomie]

I have witnessed the pastor, family members and the police intervene only to watch the wife go right back into the same situation.

Why?

I have no idea.

I do. There are a myriad of reason a wife/spouse would reenter or stay in an abusive enviornment. Some of the following reasons may or may not be applicable due to the age of the abused and how long they have been in this situation.

The first trick of an abuser is to isolate his spouse from any outside influence, thus removing any threat of intervention.

If the wife was raised in an abusive enviornment and witnessed this behavior during her developmental years from her parents, she would consider this love/hate relationship to be normal and would continue in it until it became ingrained in her personality and would continue to embrace it. Any intervention would be perceived by her as an intrusion into her lifestyle and would be threatened by it. Thus defending the abuser.

If the wife was not raised in an abusive/dysfunctional enviornment, she would be more prone to seek help, albeit there may be children involved/finances, etc. and she would make sacrifices for her children based upon her perception of her own self-worth and whether or not the risk of leaving the abuser is justified in her own mind depending on the varied degrees of abuse and how much the home can withstand.

Many times a spouse becomes an "enabler" by working against the situation and her behavior precipitates more abuse. I would recommend for any spouse to seek professional counseling from a well trained caring christian counselor.

[crazyhomie]

...you have a man in your church who is not supporting his family, or at least attempting it, or,

...you have a man in your church who is verbally/physically abusive to his wife and/or children?

Do you rebuke them? Are you heavy handed about these issues? Do you try to handle abusive situations on your own, or do you involve the authorities?

Do you regularly teach/preach to men about how to provide and care for their wives and children?

Just curious...sometimes I wonder if the reason there seems to be a weaker presence of men in some churches because they aren't taught or prompted to be stronger men at home....?

Thanks for the thread, however you left our last counseling session mad. I'm still waiting for my $150.00!!!

[revrandy]

I do. There are a myriad of reason a wife/spouse would reenter or stay in an abusive enviornment. Some of the following reasons may or may not be applicable due to the age of the abused and how long they have been in this situation.

The first trick of an abuser is to isolate his spouse from any outside influence, thus removing any threat of intervention.

If the wife was raised in an abusive enviornment and witnessed this behavior during her developmental years from her parents, she would consider this love/hate relationship to be normal and would continue in it until it became ingrained in her personality and would continue to embrace it. Any intervention would be perceived by her as an intrusion into her lifestyle and would be threatened by it. Thus defending the abuser.

If the wife was not raised in an abusive/dysfunctional enviornment, she would be more prone to seek help, albeit there may be children involved/finances, etc. and she would make sacrifices for her children based upon her perception of her own self-worth and whether or not the risk of leaving the abuser is justified in her own mind depending on the varied degrees of abuse and how much the home can withstand.

Many times a spouse becomes an "enabler" by working against the situation and her behavior precipitates more abuse. I would recommend for any spouse to seek professional counseling from a well trained caring christian counselor.

A learned Behavior is often impossible to break... unless the Holy Ghost is allowed to release them from it..

I too am a Big proponent of Professional Counseling...

[Old Paths]

ONE SOLUTION

I knew a lady that was constantly being abused by her husband, until one day when her two brothers stopped him on a back road and told him "that if he ever laid a hand on her again they would take him out in the woods and rework his plumbing".

Amazing change in that fella.

:D

[MissBrattified]

Thanks for the thread, however you left our last counseling session mad. I'm still waiting for my $150.00!!!

:aaa :couch :bolt

[crazyhomie]

PP...you publically rebuke twenty something men who refuse to get a job?

As a pastor I do not openly, publically or privately rebuke anyone. Not even the devil. Not even the ark angel would bring a railing accusation againt Satan, but said "the Lord rebuke thee" contending for the body of Moses. Why? Because because Satan is the accuser of the brethren. I would seriously ask you reconsider how you treat the flock.

Just because that's they way you were taught, doesn't make it right. By publically humiliating people you are offending their spirit, the spirit of Christ that dwells in them.

[crazyhomie]

:aaa :couch :bolt

Cute, I really like you. Maybe we can get together for a cappucino sometime...

[Theresa]

Just to be clear...this is not regarding any man in our church, nor am I questioning any action my pastor has taken on any such issue. Just to remove any discomfort some might feel at discussing this....

revr...what do you think about what I said about men learning how to be strong leaders/providers at home? Do you think that has some correlation to their strength as a Christian overall, or their potential contribution to the church or the strength of the local assembly?

It seems to me if men are weak leaders, lazy providers, or abusive, that it can bleed over into the church setting and produce a weak church environment, or one in which women feel the need to step in and produce better leadership.

AND - on that note - when the woman has to "step in" and lets say, be the spiritual leader as well as the provider for the family - it's an unnatural balance in the home and it DOES NOT WORK.

But what are you supposed to do??? The woman CANT not step up and provide for the family, she cant NOT be the strong one and insist her family be faithful to church...AND the pastor CANNOT force a grown man to do anything..

He cant counsel with the man if the man wont be counseled. He can preach it from the pulpit but he CANNOT make the man do it.

What DO you do?? A woman being the head of the family, DOES NOT WORK....what do you do?


You cant shoot the husband! and you cannot change who he really is...

[crazyhomie]

A learned Behavior is often impossible to break... unless the Holy Ghost is allowed to release them from it..

I too am a Big proponent of Professional Counseling...

Randy: The only way behavioral patterns are broken is through complete and total surrender. There isn't any else that works. Even with "speaking in tongues" and shouting, all that does is excite the spirit and create more abuse when the couple gets home.

As we surrender our lives to the Lord, He and He alone can change us. An unsurrendered soul will remain abusive.

[MissBrattified]

This is a very serious issue.

1. Provision:
In I Timothy 5:8 is one of the strongest statements in the Bible: "If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever (infidel)," (RSV).

I believe a man who is lazy and will not provide for his family is lost and headed to Hell. He is as lost as two boys kissing. The perversion stems from the same root of homosexuality - selfishness.

What is an infidel? The Greek word translated "infidel" is apistos, meaning "faithless, unbelieving, without faith."

Good points. I agree. I think these are sinful behaviors. (laziness, not providing for family)

2. Care
Providing for one's family involves more than just monetary support. It involves providing a safe and secure emotional "home" as well. Physical, emotional, or verbal abuse would destroy any hope of the home as a safe haven.

True, and I have seen some men who provide monetarily, but otherwise they're neglectful, and in some cases outright abusive. So providing has to be more than just a roof over their heads. On the flip side, I've seen some of the nicest, laid back, "fun" dads...whose big downfall was...not providing financial support.

3. Pastoral response to dead-beats.
I have publicly rebuked twenty-something males in the church I pastor who refused to get a real job. I have told them not to offer any advice as to the direction of the church if they were not even providing for themselves. I have told them they were not eligible to be in any leadership position because of their lack of initiative.

I wish you had put something in your post I could object to. LOL. I agree, men who don't provide for their families, shouldn't be in positions of leadership. I do think its important to note that "provision" doesn't necessarily mean "providing wealth", but rather, providing necessities, and working hard in general.

Domestic abuse is not something I wade into. I have a certified Christian counselor that I refer those issues to. Our church tries to cover a portion of the associated fees for such services to hurting families.

I will say that I would call the authorities if I knew any man or woman was beating their spouse. I wouldn't think twice about it. Any male that would hit a woman is a despicable excuse for a human life form.

BTW, I teach biblical family structure on a consistent basis.

Its very important. I wish more churches offered marital classes or family classes. (Parenting, financial planning, etc)

It just seems to me that if men are full of integrity, and can learn how to care for and lead their own families, following godly principles, that those leadership skills will naturally allow better leadership in the church.

[crazyhomie]

Good points. I agree. I think these are sinful behaviors. (laziness, not providing for family)



True, and I have seen some men who provide monetarily, but otherwise they're neglectful, and in some cases outright abusive. So providing has to be more than just a roof over their heads. On the flip side, I've seen some of the nicest, laid back, "fun" dads...whose big downfall was...not providing financial support.



I wish you had put something in your post I could object to. LOL. I agree, men who don't provide for their families, shouldn't be in positions of leadership. I do think its important to note that "provision" doesn't necessarily mean "providing wealth", but rather, providing necessities, and working hard in general.



Its very important. I wish more churches offered marital classes or family classes. (Parenting, financial planning, etc)

It just seems to me that if men are full of integrity, and can learn how to care for and lead their own families, following godly principles, that those leadership skills will naturally allow better leadership in the church.

Recommended Resources:

Hiding from Love: Dr. Henry Cloud
Changes that Heal; Dr. John Townsend.
Boundaries in Marriage
Boundaries

Mrs. B do you really agree with a pastor openly rebuking people publically?
www.cloudtownsend.com

[MissBrattified]

I do. There are a myriad of reason a wife/spouse would reenter or stay in an abusive enviornment. Some of the following reasons may or may not be applicable due to the age of the abused and how long they have been in this situation.

The first trick of an abuser is to isolate his spouse from any outside influence, thus removing any threat of intervention.

If the wife was raised in an abusive enviornment and witnessed this behavior during her developmental years from her parents, she would consider this love/hate relationship to be normal and would continue in it until it became ingrained in her personality and would continue to embrace it. Any intervention would be perceived by her as an intrusion into her lifestyle and would be threatened by it. Thus defending the abuser.

If the wife was not raised in an abusive/dysfunctional enviornment, she would be more prone to seek help, albeit there may be children involved/finances, etc. and she would make sacrifices for her children based upon her perception of her own self-worth and whether or not the risk of leaving the abuser is justified in her own mind depending on the varied degrees of abuse and how much the home can withstand.

Many times a spouse becomes an "enabler" by working against the situation and her behavior precipitates more abuse. I would recommend for any spouse to seek professional counseling from a well trained caring christian counselor.

There's is the added complication that many abusers are con-artists...which allows for their private abuse of children and spouse to continue virtually unseen by the outside world, and in many cases reports of abuse would be met with disbelief, considering what a "nice guy" this man may be. Many times a woman will leave, only to be showered with love, affection and tearful apologies from her abuser, and she will be convinced that he is a changed man, and give him another chance...and another...and another...and....

Add to that, that most churches frown on separation and divorce, even for legitimate reasons, and sometimes the pressure to reconcile can come from unexpected sources, including parents, in-laws and even pastors.

[revrandy]

Randy: The only way behavioral patterns are broken is through complete and total surrender. There isn't any else that works. Even with "speaking in tongues" and shouting, all that does is excite the spirit and create more abuse when the couple gets home.

As we surrender our lives to the Lord, He and He alone can change us. An unsurrendered soul will remain abusive.

Amen...

[MissBrattified]

Recommended Resources:

Hiding from Love: Dr. Henry Cloud
Changes that Heal; Dr. John Townsend.
Boundaries in Marriage
Boundaries

Mrs. B do you really agree with a pastor openly rebuking people publically?
www.cloudtownsend.com

Well, I don't particularly like it, but I can see where it might be needful, especially if there is a case of abuse. What do you think?

[MissBrattified]

Cute, I really like you. Maybe we can get together for a cappucino sometime...

There is nothing likeable about me whatsoever. :blink And I only have coffee with my girlfriends.

[crazyhomie]

There's is the added complication that many abusers are con-artists...which allows for their private abuse of children and spouse to continue virtually unseen by the outside world, and in many cases reports of abuse would be met with disbelief, considering what a "nice guy" this man may be. Many times a woman will leave, only to be showered with love, affection and tearful apologies from her abuser, and she will be convinced that he is a changed man, and give him another chance...and another...and another...and....

Add to that, that most churches frown on separation and divorce, even for legitimate reasons, and sometimes the pressure to reconcile can come from unexpected sources, including parents, in-laws and even pastors.

Ultimately as a pastor, you cannot help people who will not receive it. The best deterrent against abuse is for the pastor to model proper behavior towards his wife/family.

If a pastor abuses the flock, its a clear signal that its ok to abuse his wife.

[crazyhomie]

There is nothing likeable about me whatsoever. :blink And I only have coffee with my girlfriends.

I see you hold yourself in real high regard. Your self-esteem is through the ROOF!!! I actually think you have great communicative skills and there is a lot in you that is like able.:roseglasses

[revrandy]

I see you hold yourself in real high regard. Your self-esteem is through the ROOF!!! I actually think you have great communicative skills and there is a lot in you that is like able.:roseglasses

Unless you two are married to each other... This is not a good road to travel.. here...

[MissBrattified]

I see you hold yourself in real high regard. Your self-esteem is through the ROOF!!! I actually think you have great communicative skills and there is a lot in you that is like able.:roseglasses

Your analysis skills are terrible. :stop

[crazyhomie]

Unless you two are married to each other... This is not a good road to travel.. here...

That's what I was thinking...

[revrandy]

That's what I was thinking...

You started it... now end it... imo... :saycheese

[crazyhomie]

You started it... now end it... imo... :saycheese

I'm having too much fun...

[mizpeh]

A learned Behavior is often impossible to break... unless the Holy Ghost is allowed to release them from it..

I too am a Big proponent of Professional Counseling...

What about repentance? Doesn't anyone get convicted anymore over neglect and laziness?

[revrandy]

I think that there many who would like to change their spouses...I've known some lazy wives for that matter...and here is the solution to both issues...

WE NEED MENTORS>>> Elders (Men & Women) who take the young under them and give advice and lead them...

[crazyhomie]

Your analysis skills are terrible. :stop

SMILE JESUS LOVES YOU AND SO DO I...



AND EVERYBODY ELSE THAT SHOULD BE A CHRISTIAN.

THIS COFFEE IS TERRIBLE...:hypercoffee

[revrandy]

What about repentance? Doesn't anyone get convicted anymore over neglect and laziness?

I haven't heard any one preach laziness is a sin lately...have you?

I'm not saying it's not.. but we don't major on the minors at times and then they grow into majors...

[crazyhomie]

I think that there many who would like to change their spouses...I've known some lazy wives for that matter...and here is the solution to both issues...

WE NEED MENTORS>>> Elders (Men & Women) who take the young under them and give advice and lead them...

That's why God invented wife/swap on ABC monday nights!

[crazyhomie]

What about repentance? Doesn't anyone get convicted anymore over neglect and laziness?

No, their too busy running around the church/

[Theresa]

I think that there many who would like to change their spouses...I've known some lazy wives for that matter...and here is the solution to both issues...

WE NEED MENTORS>>> Elders (Men & Women) who take the young under them and give advice and lead them...

but IMO, the man plays a critical role as the HEAD of the family....

if he's not leading, it doesnt matter what the wife does.

If he leads, it'll fix things -if it doesnt - something is off in his leadership IMO

[revrandy]

but IMO, the man plays a critical role as the HEAD of the family....

if he's not leading, it doesnt matter what the wife does.

If he leads, it'll fix things -if it doesnt - something is off in his leadership IMO

There are soooo many varibles to this it's hard to nail it down without knowing the particulars...

What if his wife is just preachy and bossy?

What if she constantly compares him to others??

What if she won't let up and give the man a breaK??

Is he genuinly lazy or is a escape from the reality of his marriage??

So many things add into this.. personally I would have to see both sides
before making a judgement against him or her whatever the case may be...

[MissBrattified]

I haven't heard any one preach laziness is a sin lately...have you?

I'm not saying it's not.. but we don't major on the minors at times and then they grow into majors...

I certainly think that when men aren't motivated to support their families and/or they are willing to lay around the house while their wives do all the providing...that it has become a MAJOR!!!!

I do agree that there are also lazy wives. One of my friends shared a little "conviction" with me awhile back...something about...she always makes sure the house is perfect when they have company, and she heard this little nagging voice that told her that she should treat her husband and children just as well as she treats company! I agree. Stay at home mothers and wives should see to their responsibilities just as earnestly as they expect their husbands to provide for them.

And...with that said...I have work to do. :D Carry on!

[revrandy]

One point..

Laziness is often a Perception too...

[Theresa]

I certainly think that when men aren't motivated to support their families and/or they are willing to lay around the house while their wives do all the providing...that it has become a MAJOR!!!!

I do agree that there are also lazy wives. One of my friends shared a little "conviction" with me awhile back...something about...she always makes sure the house is perfect when they have company, and she heard this little nagging voice that told her that she should treat her husband and children just as well as she treats company! I agree. Stay at home mothers and wives should see to their responsibilities just as earnestly as they expect their husbands to provide for them.

And...with that said...I have work to do. :D Carry on!

explain to me how a woman who works full time to provide for this family is supposed to pick up after them when they are physically capable of picking up after themselves? Where does it say the WOMAN is the maid, cook and chief bottle washer.

Nothing will make me madder, faster than for me to be ON MY WAY HOME from work and I get a call wanting to know what is for dinner and what "plans" do we have for the evening..and I get home and the house is a wreck and there are at least 3 able bodied MALES who could have: 1. put on a load of clothes, 2. taken out the trash 3. cleaned up after themselves in the kitchen 4. picked up any 1 of their 1000s of shoes that are blocking the door 5. cleaned their rooms 6. mowed the grass 7. picked up the junk around the yard...the list is endless...

but they all are just sitting there waiting for ME to feed them


where in the bible does it say that it is MY problem???

[MissBrattified]

explain to me how a woman who works full time to provide for this family is supposed to pick up after them when they are physically capable of picking up after themselves? Where does it say the WOMAN is the maid, cook and chief bottle washer.

Nothing will make me madder, faster than for me to be ON MY WAY HOME from work and I get a call wanting to know what is for dinner and what "plans" do we have for the evening..and I get home and the house is a wreck and there are at least 3 able bodied MALES who could have: 1. put on a load of clothes, 2. taken out the trash 3. cleaned up after themselves in the kitchen 4. picked up any 1 of their 1000s of shoes that are blocking the door 5. cleaned their rooms 6. mowed the grass 7. picked up the junk around the yard...the list is endless...

but they all are just sitting there waiting for ME to feed them


where in the bible does it say that it is MY problem???

Um...I believe I said "stay at home" wives and mothers. :D

[RevDWW]

Concerning wife abusers, should there be a prayer meet'n with the offender and perhaps some laying on of hands by the brethern is such a way as to adjust the wrong attitude? :lol

[MissBrattified]

Concerning wife abusers, should there be a prayer meet'n with the offender and perhaps some laying on of hands by the brethern is such a way as to adjust the wrong attitude? :lol

Good plan. :D

[Theresa]

Um...I believe I said "stay at home" wives and mothers. :D

you probably did LOL!!

[crazyhomie]

Good plan. :D

What pray through? That plan doesn't work. Let's just ignore it, hide it under the rug so it'll go away...God helps those who help themselves. Prayer is good, but trust, communication, unconditional love and surrender are as much a part of the componenent as a S.N. prayer meeting and everybody laying hands on one another.

[MissBrattified]

What pray through? That plan doesn't work. Let's just ignore it, hide it under the rug so it'll go away...God helps those who help themselves. Prayer is good, but trust, communication, unconditional love and surrender are as much a part of the componenent as a S.N. prayer meeting and everybody laying hands on one another.

I don't think Rev meant "laying on hands" in the traditional sense....

[RevDWW]

I don't think Rev meant "laying on hands" in the traditional sense....

I left it open for interpretation.........

I once met a young man who had been trained as a police officer. He went to Fort Worth to ride with a veteran officer to see if he'd like to take a job. They got called to a domestic abuse situation. He veteran officer explain to the man that had been beating his wife that it was in his best interest for the Police not to have to come out to this kind of call again. The young man told me "He beat the living daylights" out of the abuser. And it got his attention. The young man decline the job offer.

[HeavenlyOne]

explain to me how a woman who works full time to provide for this family is supposed to pick up after them when they are physically capable of picking up after themselves? Where does it say the WOMAN is the maid, cook and chief bottle washer.

Nothing will make me madder, faster than for me to be ON MY WAY HOME from work and I get a call wanting to know what is for dinner and what "plans" do we have for the evening..and I get home and the house is a wreck and there are at least 3 able bodied MALES who could have: 1. put on a load of clothes, 2. taken out the trash 3. cleaned up after themselves in the kitchen 4. picked up any 1 of their 1000s of shoes that are blocking the door 5. cleaned their rooms 6. mowed the grass 7. picked up the junk around the yard...the list is endless...

but they all are just sitting there waiting for ME to feed them


where in the bible does it say that it is MY problem???

Psst......you forgot to read this in her post:

Stay at home mothers and wives should see to their responsibilities just as earnestly as they expect their husbands to provide for them.

[HeavenlyOne]

you probably did LOL!!

Is your BP down yet? LOL!

[Nahum]

PP...you publically rebuke twenty something men who refuse to get a job?

As a pastor I do not openly, publically or privately rebuke anyone. Not even the devil. Not even the ark angel would bring a railing accusation againt Satan, but said "the Lord rebuke thee" contending for the body of Moses. Why? Because because Satan is the accuser of the brethren. I would seriously ask you reconsider how you treat the flock.

Just because that's they way you were taught, doesn't make it right. By publically humiliating people you are offending their spirit, the spirit of Christ that dwells in them.

No offense, but I don't give a flyin' fajita what you think I should or should not do in the church.

As a pastor, there are times when public rebuke is an absolute necessity. Especially when young, purposefully-unemployed men want to dictate the direction of the church PUBLICLY in business meetings or planning sessions.

I will tell them to keep silent because they are IN SIN!!!!! So, you see, there is a difference in our understanding here. You apparently think lazy, selfish, abusers should have a voice in the church.

I don't.

What we need are some real men who know how to treat a woman. Maybe then these women wouldn't need to fill positions they were never meant to fill. Some of these women got raw deals.

[SDG]

No offense, but I don't give a flyin' fajita what you think I should or should not do in the church.

As a pastor, there are times when public rebuke is an absolute necessity. Especially when young, purposefully-unemployed men want to dictate the direction of the church PUBLICLY in business meetings or planning sessions.

I will tell them to keep silent because they are IN SIN!!!!! So, you see, there is a difference in our understanding here. You apparently think lazy, selfish, abusers should have a voice in the church.

I don't.

What we need are some real men who know how to treat a woman. Maybe then these women wouldn't need to fill positions they were never meant to fill. Some of these women got raw deals.

I love Apostolic cussin'.

[revrandy]

No offense, but I don't give a flyin' fajita what you think I should or should not do in the church.

As a pastor, there are times when public rebuke is an absolute necessity. Especially when young, purposefully-unemployed men want to dictate the direction of the church PUBLICLY in business meetings or planning sessions.

I will tell them to keep silent because they are IN SIN!!!!! So, you see, there is a difference in our understanding here. You apparently think lazy, selfish, abusers should have a voice in the church.

I don't.

What we need are some real men who know how to treat a woman. Maybe then these women wouldn't need to fill positions they were never meant to fill. Some of these women got raw deals.

Actions without correction always go unanswered... Correction must be applied for the discipline to work...

[revrandy]

btw.. I think the "Flyin' Fajita" would be a great name for a resturant...

[tbpew]

btw.. I think the "Flyin' Fajita" would be a great name for a resturant...
....particularly if airlines are out-sourcing their food services.

[freeatlast]

btw.. I think the "Flyin' Fajita" would be a great name for a resturant...

Maybe you could open one next to Lamberts, the home of the throwed role.

[Theresa]

Is your BP down yet? LOL!

LOL

yeah, and so is my blood sugar. It's 84

[Nahum]

I love Apostolic cussin'.

Sorry, but I can't stand deadbeats who want to tell the church and the government how things should be done.

Hey crazyhomie, how bout I tell those lazy mama's boys to go get a job, plant a growing church, and raise a family of five like I did.

THEN he can come talk to me about direction and vision. Until then he ain't got no stinkin' corn in the crib!!!!!!!!!!


Disclaimer: It has now become apparent that this is not a church growth thread.:hypercoffee

[Neck]

...you have a man in your church who is not supporting his family, or at least attempting it, or,

...you have a man in your church who is verbally/physically abusive to his wife and/or children?

Do you rebuke them? Are you heavy handed about these issues? Do you try to handle abusive situations on your own, or do you involve the authorities?

Do you regularly teach/preach to men about how to provide and care for their wives and children?

Just curious...sometimes I wonder if the reason there seems to be a weaker presence of men in some churches because they aren't taught or prompted to be stronger men at home....?

I am not a pastor. But I have been around ministers etc my entire life.

I think without being over intrusive or name calling.

It is every brother or sisters right in the body of Christ to talk to folks about serious situations.

I always run my idea or thougts by someone I respect.

I will approach someone if they have a noticable problem.

When I was around 20 years old.

this man in our church was just beating his young son in a stall in the Men's bathroom.

When he came out after hitting his son.

I looked him right in the eye's and said, what are you doing to him at home?

[HeavenlyOne]

LOL

yeah, and so is my blood sugar. It's 84

Excellent!! It's well within range!

[revrandy]

I assisted a man a short time who he and his wife would put welts on his daughter's legs...We didn't stay long.. it bordered on abuse imo...

[HeavenlyOne]

I assisted a man a short time who he and his wife would put welts on his daughter's legs...We didn't stay long.. it bordered on abuse imo...

I was done that way all my life. Nobody, including the pastor, ever said anything. In fact, additional punishments were encouraged because I was seen a a rebellious, disobedient child.

[tamor]

Maybe you could open one next to Lamberts, the home of the throwed role.

I was gonna say the same thing. I can just see it now. Fajitas being chunked across the room instead of rolls!!

[MrsMcD]

explain to me how a woman who works full time to provide for this family is supposed to pick up after them when they are physically capable of picking up after themselves? Where does it say the WOMAN is the maid, cook and chief bottle washer.

Nothing will make me madder, faster than for me to be ON MY WAY HOME from work and I get a call wanting to know what is for dinner and what "plans" do we have for the evening..and I get home and the house is a wreck and there are at least 3 able bodied MALES who could have: 1. put on a load of clothes, 2. taken out the trash 3. cleaned up after themselves in the kitchen 4. picked up any 1 of their 1000s of shoes that are blocking the door 5. cleaned their rooms 6. mowed the grass 7. picked up the junk around the yard...the list is endless...

but they all are just sitting there waiting for ME to feed them


where in the bible does it say that it is MY problem???

Oh girl, I am with you on this one. I finally told my husband not to ever call me again at work and ask me what was for dinner. He would call almost every day 30 minutes before time to leave work. He wouldn't ask how my day was going, etc. It was what are you cooking for dinner? He doesn't call and ask that anymore but he does aimlessly wonder around the house waiting on me to start cooking something but I'm not suppose to realize what he is doing. LOL

[MrsMcD]

I am not a pastor. But I have been around ministers etc my entire life.

I think without being over intrusive or name calling.

It is every brother or sisters right in the body of Christ to talk to folks about serious situations.

I always run my idea or thougts by someone I respect.

I will approach someone if they have a noticable problem.

When I was around 20 years old.

this man in our church was just beating his young son in a stall in the Men's bathroom.

When he came out after hitting his son.

I looked him right in the eye's and said, what are you doing to him at home?

Good for you! I have wanted to ask that same question.

[Admin]

As a pastor I do not openly, publically or privately rebuke anyone.


That's why God invented wife/swap on ABC monday nights!

If you are a Pastor, I want to know who is overseeing you when you make references off color like you did toward MissBrattified in this thread?!?

You have revealed you are LarryBoy from NFCF meaning either you are a open liar about being a Pastor or you indeed are a troll here.

BoredOutOfMyMind wearing Admin Hat and not going to tolerate your off color suggestions.

[HeavenlyOne]

If you are a Pastor, I want to know who is overseeing you when you make references off color like you did toward MissBrattified in this thread?!?

You have revealed you are LarryBoy from NFCF meaning either you are a open liar about being a Pastor or you indeed are a troll here.

BoredOutOfMyMind wearing Admin Hat and not going to tolerate your off color suggestions.

CH is NOT LarryBoy. Redeemedcynic84 is.

[MissBrattified]

CH is NOT LarryBoy. Redeemedcynic84 is.

Yes...I was about to point that out....:hypercoffee

[Nahum]

Whoever he is, he should be banned immediately. His posts on this thread are way weird.

1. He doesn't believe we should rebuke the devil? Huh?
2. He openly embarrasses a married woman of high integrity.

There should not even be a discussion about banning him. It's a no brainer. But hey, BOOM is all over him like white on rice.


Go BOOM!!!!

[revrandy]

CH is NOT LarryBoy. Redeemedcynic84 is.

Yes...I was about to point that out....:hypercoffee

Maybe they both are.... there was another distant poster in the past who liked the dual natures of strangeness...

[crazyhomie]

If you are a Pastor, I want to know who is overseeing you when you make references off color like you did toward MissBrattified in this thread?!?

You have revealed you are LarryBoy from NFCF meaning either you are a open liar about being a Pastor or you indeed are a troll here.

BoredOutOfMyMind wearing Admin Hat and not going to tolerate your off color suggestions.

It was a joke and have already apologized. I'm not larry boy and certainly am not a liar. God bless and have a good day.

[MissBrattified]

It was a joke and have already apologized. I'm not larry boy and certainly am not a liar. God bless and have a good day.

I can attest to this, crazyhomie did apologize to me for his comments.

[Theresa]

Oh girl, I am with you on this one. I finally told my husband not to ever call me again at work and ask me what was for dinner. He would call almost every day 30 minutes before time to leave work. He wouldn't ask how my day was going, etc. It was what are you cooking for dinner? He doesn't call and ask that anymore but he does aimlessly wonder around the house waiting on me to start cooking something but I'm not suppose to realize what he is doing. LOL

my husband goes through phases of sensibility...I went OFF not too long ago and he stopped calling and asking.

Then the other night, after he's started up again, I told them to fend for themselves, I had things to do...

I think he's in an "I got a clue" phase...he called me earlier to tell me he'd cleaned up the kitchen, the living room and the bathroom.

I was silent

he was too

I said, "what, you want applause? What about the rest of the house?"

He was like....

"Good bye Theresa"


I just laughed

[crazyhomie]

Maybe they both are.... there was another distant poster in the past who liked the dual natures of strangeness...

Jesus had a dual nature too you know...i was really starting to like you revrandy. how long have you lived in stockton? I went to CLC 20+ years ago.

[revrandy]

Jesus had a dual nature too you know...i was really starting to like you revrandy. how long have you lived in stockton? I went to CLC 20+ years ago.

I don't dislike you... it's water under the bridge as far as i am concerned...

I have lived here 17 years... take it to PM if you'd like as to not hijack the thread... :)

[Hegavmelif]

PP...you publically rebuke twenty something men who refuse to get a job?

As a pastor I do not openly, publically or privately rebuke anyone. Not even the devil. Not even the ark angel would bring a railing accusation againt Satan, but said "the Lord rebuke thee" contending for the body of Moses. Why? Because because Satan is the accuser of the brethren. I would seriously ask you reconsider how you treat the flock.

Just because that's they way you were taught, doesn't make it right. By publically humiliating people you are offending their spirit, the spirit of Christ that dwells in them.

Oh my God!! Ding! Ding! Ding! I believe the reason some men are abusive has a lot to do with the way the are treated from the pulpit when they get to church. I have heard preachers talk to saints in a manner that society as a whole would never accept under any circumstance. I don't understand why some of our men turn into such meanies when they get in the pulpit...but they do!

[Nahum]

Oh my God!! Ding! Ding! Ding! I believe the reason some men are abusive has a lot to do with the way the are treated from the pulpit when they get to church. I have heard preachers talk to saints in a manner that society as a whole would never accept under any circumstance. I don't understand why some of our men turn into such meanies when they get in the pulpit...but they do!

Are you really serious?!

You think a grown man that:

1. doesn't work,
2. lives off of mom and dad,
3. won't go to college,
4. is over the age of 20,
5. won't help in any of the programs of the church,

Should be able to stand up in business meetings and planning sessions and dictate the direction of the church and how tithe and offering money should be spent? Do you think it's okay for him to stand publicly and tell everyone how things should be handled?


I am seriously concerned if you do.


BTW, crazyhomie says he never rebukes people publicly while in the same breath rebuking me?


The guy has a problem. Seriously.

[revrandy]

Jesus had a dual nature too you know...i was really starting to like you revrandy. how long have you lived in stockton? I went to CLC 20+ years ago.

I don't dislike you... it's water under the bridge as far as i am concerned...

I have lived here 17 years... take it to PM if you'd like as to not hijack the thread... :)

oaky...the river just ran dry....

[Sheltiedad]

Oh girl, I am with you on this one. I finally told my husband not to ever call me again at work and ask me what was for dinner. He would call almost every day 30 minutes before time to leave work. He wouldn't ask how my day was going, etc. It was what are you cooking for dinner? He doesn't call and ask that anymore but he does aimlessly wonder around the house waiting on me to start cooking something but I'm not suppose to realize what he is doing. LOL

In OUR defense... :D I only call because I get in trouble if I have already eaten by the time she gets home so I have to understand what she wants to do. :D

[deltaguitar]

Are you really serious?!

You think a grown man that:

1. doesn't work,
2. lives off of mom and dad,
3. won't go to college,
4. is over the age of 20,
5. won't help in any of the programs of the church,

Should be able to stand up in business meetings and planning sessions and dictate the direction of the church and how tithe and offering money should be spent? Do you think it's okay for him to stand publicly and tell everyone how things should be handled?


I am seriously concerned if you do.


BTW, crazyhomie says he never rebukes people publicly while in the same breath rebuking me?


The guy has a problem. Seriously.


Maybe this guys shouldn't be a voting member of your church unless the membership rules allow. If he is not a member and gets out of order in a business meeting then he should be removed from the meeting. I don't think this would be considered a rebuke would be justified in trying to restore order.

[MrsMcD]

In OUR defense... :D I only call because I get in trouble if I have already eaten by the time she gets home so I have to understand what she wants to do. :D

Hum, you use a good excuse anyway. :D

[Hegavmelif]

Are you really serious?!

You think a grown man that:

1. doesn't work,
2. lives off of mom and dad,
3. won't go to college,
4. is over the age of 20,
5. won't help in any of the programs of the church,

Should be able to stand up in business meetings and planning sessions and dictate the direction of the church and how tithe and offering money should be spent? Do you think it's okay for him to stand publicly and tell everyone how things should be handled?


I am seriously concerned if you do.


BTW, crazyhomie says he never rebukes people publicly while in the same breath rebuking me?


The guy has a problem. Seriously.

It has everything to do with how they were raised. If you have 20 men in your church who don't work, you need to look at mom and dad. These men are a product of their environment. I have a 15 year boy who took his first job this summer. The contractor he worked for loved him - Thought he had the best attitude and work ethics he had ever seen in a teenager. The contractor readily acknowledged that he (my son) is who he is because of the disciplined, hard-working mom and dad that my son has!

Mom and dad had more to do with the end results in these 20 men than we would want to admit.

I tell woman who complain about how men act that if they want men to act differently, they have to start raising boys differently!!

Individual counseling with a passion to see a difference in each of the lives so these 20 men would have gone a lot further with better results. I would much rather have had the occasion to talk and cousel with each of the individuals individually than to openly rebuke them all at once.

You never know, God might be trying to teach you something about this lazy untoward generation in which you are trying to build churches out of.

And, bythe way, I don't like laziness in anyone. Some of the hardest working people I know are my my wife, her mother, my mother, my grandmothers. The men work equally as as hard.

[Nahum]

Maybe this guys shouldn't be a voting member of your church unless the membership rules allow. If he is not a member and gets out of order in a business meeting then he should be removed from the meeting. I don't think this would be considered a rebuke would be justified in trying to restore order.

Thank you. There were three of them and that's exactly what I did.

From that point on I announced that only the voting membership were invited to our business meetings. Two of the three went out and got jobs, the other one moved away.

[HeavenlyOne]

oaky...the river just ran dry....

I would pay big money to know what this means......LOL!

[Sheltiedad]

Hum, you use a good excuse anyway. :D

We just made a new rule since she has started her own business and is on a different schedule. If she doesn't call me by 4:30 pm I am allowed to eat on my own. :D

[Nahum]

It has everything to do with how they were raised. If you have 20 men in your church who don't work, you need to look at mom and dad. These men are a product of their environment. I have a 15 year boy who took his first job this summer. The contractor he worked for loved him - Thought he had the best attitude and work ethics he had ever seen in a teenager. The contractor readily acknowledged that he (my son) is who he is because of the disciplined, hard-working mom and dad that my son has!

Mom and dad had more to do with the end results in these 20 men than we would want to admit.

I tell woman who complain about how men act that if they want men to act differently, they have to start raising boys differently!!

Individual counseling with a passion to see a difference in each of the lives so these 20 men would have gone a lot further with better results. I would much rather have had the occasion to talk and cousel with each of the individuals individually than to openly rebuke them all at once.

You never know, God might be trying to teach you something about this lazy untoward generation in which you are trying to build churches out of.

And, bythe way, I don't like laziness in anyone. Some of the hardest working people I know are my my wife, her mother, my mother, my grandmothers. The men work equally as as hard.

I don't have twenty men who don't work, I had a group of twenty-somethings. I was referring to their age.

But let's make a deal, you pastor your group, and I'll pastor the ones God allows me to in the way He wants me to.

His Word says that those who don't provide are worse than unbelievers. The church body needs to know I won't tolerate that nonsense.

Get a job! I have no sympathy for someone who can work, but won't.

[Nahum]

Oh my God!! Ding! Ding! Ding! I believe the reason some men are abusive has a lot to do with the way the are treated from the pulpit when they get to church. I have heard preachers talk to saints in a manner that society as a whole would never accept under any circumstance. I don't understand why some of our men turn into such meanies when they get in the pulpit...but they do!


By the way, are you a pastor?

[deltaguitar]

Thank you. There were three of them and that's exactly what I did.

From that point on I announced that only the voting membership were invited to our business meetings. Two of the three went out and got jobs, the other one moved away.

Sometimes a rebuke would almost be considered encouragement. I have a friend who doesn't put up with much foolishness from people and is quick to rebuke (or encourage) and I am amazed that most of these people will end up looking up to him. I don't know if it is because they are trying to please their "abuser" or if they really get the message.

:sshhh

[HeavenlyOne]

It has everything to do with how they were raised. If you have 20 men in your church who don't work, you need to look at mom and dad. These men are a product of their environment. I have a 15 year boy who took his first job this summer. The contractor he worked for loved him - Thought he had the best attitude and work ethics he had ever seen in a teenager. The contractor readily acknowledged that he (my son) is who he is because of the disciplined, hard-working mom and dad that my son has!

Mom and dad had more to do with the end results in these 20 men than we would want to admit.

I tell woman who complain about how men act that if they want men to act differently, they have to start raising boys differently!!

Individual counseling with a passion to see a difference in each of the lives so these 20 men would have gone a lot further with better results. I would much rather have had the occasion to talk and cousel with each of the individuals individually than to openly rebuke them all at once.

You never know, God might be trying to teach you something about this lazy untoward generation in which you are trying to build churches out of.

And, bythe way, I don't like laziness in anyone. Some of the hardest working people I know are my my wife, her mother, my mother, my grandmothers. The men work equally as as hard.

While I agree with your post for the most part, that's not the problem in all cases. I know mom's and dad's who do all they can to teach their children, but they have this black sheep, so to speak, who won't do anything and have no ethics. That isn't reflective on the parents, but on the child who never put forth any effort to be productive.

On the flip side, I have seen parents who are lazy, scum of the earth people who have a child that refuses to be like mom and dad and make something of themselves.

My family consists of a mom who raised me with work ethics, but a dad who, thankfully didn't live with us most of our lives, was on welfare more than he held a job and never paid child support. However, he remarried and had 5 more children with his just as lazy as he is wife, but I'm happy to say that all 5 of those kids, who are know grown, all have jobs and are productive people. Three of the five have educational degrees (2 Bachelor, 1 Masters).

I can't believe that for the parents they had in common, there isn't a one of them who wants to be that way. I'm proud of my family, and thankful that they don't want to carry on the lazy family tradition.

Anyway, just wanted you to know that while I believe your post might be the norm, thankfully, there are exceptions.

[revrandy]

Thank you. There were three of them and that's exactly what I did.

From that point on I announced that only the voting membership were invited to our business meetings. Two of the three went out and got jobs, the other one moved away.

Sounds like God answered Prayer...

[Nahum]

Sometimes a rebuke would almost be considered encouragement. I have a friend who doesn't put up with much foolishness from people and is quick to rebuke (or encourage) and I am amazed that most of these people will end up looking up to him. I don't know if it is because they are trying to please their "abuser" or if they really get the message.

:sshhh

I think I have only openly rebuked from the pulpit one time other than the one I mentioned. I don't make it a habit, but I am not afraid to call things to order.

They used to call that leadership, now they call it abuse. Go figure.:hypercoffee

[crazyhomie]

No offense, but I don't give a flyin' fajita what you think I should or should not do in the church.

As a pastor, there are times when public rebuke is an absolute necessity. Especially when young, purposefully-unemployed men want to dictate the direction of the church PUBLICLY in business meetings or planning sessions.

I will tell them to keep silent because they are IN SIN!!!!! So, you see, there is a difference in our understanding here. You apparently think lazy, selfish, abusers should have a voice in the church.

I don't.

What we need are some real men who know how to treat a woman. Maybe then these women wouldn't need to fill positions they were never meant to fill. Some of these women got raw deals.

you didn't mention it was in a business meeting. we will have to agree to disagree on this one. The church should not be a place of offense. We have fun and joke, but that's different. I personally would take the young man into a private location and speak to him.

[deltaguitar]

I think I have only openly rebuked from the pulpit one time other than the one I mentioned. I don't make it a habit, but I am not afraid to call things to order.

They used to call that leadership, now they call it abuse. Go figure.:hypercoffee

I don't think calling things to order would be considered a rebuke.

I think a rebuke would be to openly aim comments at an individual's sin in order to shame them into changing or leaving the church for that matter.

I think the rebuke we are talking about would almost be considered manipulation.


:bedtime

[HeavenlyOne]

I think I have only openly rebuked from the pulpit one time other than the one I mentioned. I don't make it a habit, but I am not afraid to call things to order.

They used to call that leadership, now they call it abuse. Go figure.:hypercoffee

At the church I met you at when you preached there, the pastor had to interrupt service to shut a woman up who was trying to tell the pastor what to do in regard to issues he was speaking about to us. She was a visitor, but apparently knew better than he did on what he should do and how he should do it.....LOL!

He finally told her in so many words to shut up cause she didn't know what she was talking about!

[crazyhomie]

Oh my God!! Ding! Ding! Ding! I believe the reason some men are abusive has a lot to do with the way the are treated from the pulpit when they get to church. I have heard preachers talk to saints in a manner that society as a whole would never accept under any circumstance. I don't understand why some of our men turn into such meanies when they get in the pulpit...but they do!

Amen Sister, pp got defensive by my comments. The church will always assume the spirit of the pastor. Who he is they will become too.

[mizpeh]

Amen Sister, pp got defensive by my comments. The church will always assume the spirit of the pastor. Who he is they will become too.

Not true.

[crazyhomie]

It has everything to do with how they were raised. If you have 20 men in your church who don't work, you need to look at mom and dad. These men are a product of their environment. I have a 15 year boy who took his first job this summer. The contractor he worked for loved him - Thought he had the best attitude and work ethics he had ever seen in a teenager. The contractor readily acknowledged that he (my son) is who he is because of the disciplined, hard-working mom and dad that my son has!

Mom and dad had more to do with the end results in these 20 men than we would want to admit.

I tell woman who complain about how men act that if they want men to act differently, they have to start raising boys differently!!

Individual counseling with a passion to see a difference in each of the lives so these 20 men would have gone a lot further with better results. I would much rather have had the occasion to talk and cousel with each of the individuals individually than to openly rebuke them all at once.

You never know, God might be trying to teach you something about this lazy untoward generation in which you are trying to build churches out of.

And, bythe way, I don't like laziness in anyone. Some of the hardest working people I know are my my wife, her mother, my mother, my grandmothers. The men work equally as as hard.

sorry i called you sister, i meant brother.

[Nahum]

Amen Sister, pp got defensive by my comments. The church will always assume the spirit of the pastor. Who he is they will become too.

You meant to say PP got defensive by your REBUKE, right? I mean, that's what it was.

The church better not assume anyone's spirit but God's.

BTW, I hope my attitude does rub off on them (and it has), because I'm not paying their bills. They need to be men and take care of themselves.

[Nahum]

...you have a man in your church who is not supporting his family, or at least attempting it, or,

...you have a man in your church who is verbally/physically abusive to his wife and/or children?

Do you rebuke them? Are you heavy handed about these issues? Do you try to handle abusive situations on your own, or do you involve the authorities?

Do you regularly teach/preach to men about how to provide and care for their wives and children?

Just curious...sometimes I wonder if the reason there seems to be a weaker presence of men in some churches because they aren't taught or prompted to be stronger men at home....?

bump

[crazyhomie]

You meant to say PP got defensive by your REBUKE, right? I mean, that's what it was.

The church better not assume anyone's spirit but God's.

BTW, I hope my attitude does rub off on them (and it has), because I'm not paying their bills. They need to be men and take care of themselves.

pp obviously we have a disagreement as to what a rebuke is...i would agree with delta guitar that a rebuke would be to shame someone publically. I have had people openly cause trouble and would have to be escorted out of the service by the ushers. Thats different. We obviously don't see eye to eye on this, so for the sake of unity, we'll drop the subject.

[crazyhomie]

Not true.

Everything reproduces after its own kind. its the most fundamental law of God.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

CH is NOT LarryBoy. Redeemedcynic84 is.

Yes...I was about to point that out....:hypercoffee

This is an open apology then to RedeemedCynic84.

I have sent RC A pm also.

:tiphat

Thank you ladies.

[philjones]

my husband goes through phases of sensibility...I went OFF not too long ago and he stopped calling and asking.

Then the other night, after he's started up again, I told them to fend for themselves, I had things to do...

I think he's in an "I got a clue" phase...he called me earlier to tell me he'd cleaned up the kitchen, the living room and the bathroom.

I was silent

he was too

I said, "what, you want applause? What about the rest of the house?"

He was like....

"Good bye Theresa"


I just laughed

You obviously flunked "The Psychology of Man"!:killinme:killinme

[philjones]

We just made a new rule since she has started her own business and is on a different schedule. If she doesn't call me by 4:30 pm I am allowed to eat on my own. :D

Legalism in a marriage that results in freedom! What a concept!:killinme:killinme

Luv you man!

[philjones]

Amen Sister, pp got defensive by my comments. The church will always assume the spirit of the pastor. Who he is they will become too.

Naw... you are wrong... they usually assume the spirit of the back stabbing rabble rouser they hang out with. I have always been amazed at how, as a society, we are quick to warn our children about the nice older guy who comes bearing gifts and inviting them to come see his puppy... we call them predators... yet in the church we let any old predatory, half backslidden, hypocrite sidle up to our new babes in Christ and pervert their pure minds and if we try to stop them we are abusing the church!

Give me a break and a good dose of common sense! Some things just have to be handled! Biblically it is one on one, one with witnesses and then if not received publically! so much for the pschyobabble masquerading as wisdom and kindness!

[Jodiah91]

It's interesting this topic has came up. . .we were just talking on this very thing in our young peoples class this past Sunday. Our youth pastor, who also teaches the class, really hit hard on the 18-22/23 year old guys in the class about being responsible, mentoring and being an example to the 12/13 year old guys that are up and coming in the youth group. How giving your word is a committment and when given, should be kept, especially when given to the works of God and the ministry. Lack of responsibility in the little things will often bleed over into lack of responsibility in the bigger things. I think it's important not only for young guys but girls as well that responsibility, accountability, integrity, etc is taught. I agree that today's young generation have no accountability and expect everything handed to them.

[Jodiah91]

There are soooo many varibles to this it's hard to nail it down without knowing the particulars...

What if his wife is just preachy and bossy?

What if she constantly compares him to others??

What if she won't let up and give the man a breaK??

Is he genuinly lazy or is a escape from the reality of his marriage??

So many things add into this.. personally I would have to see both sides
before making a judgement against him or her whatever the case may be...

It is God's intended role for the man to be the head of the family. If the wife is 'wearing the pants' in the relationship then she is usurping the authority Gond intended man to have. . .and she's wrong. This is at times hard for me because I am very opinionated and when I have to submit to my husband's authority and decisions on certain things. . .well let's just say it's hard :killinme But I'm getting better at it.

[Jodiah91]

Are you really serious?!

You think a grown man that:

1. doesn't work,
2. lives off of mom and dad,
3. won't go to college,
4. is over the age of 20,
5. won't help in any of the programs of the church,

Should be able to stand up in business meetings and planning sessions and dictate the direction of the church and how tithe and offering money should be spent? Do you think it's okay for him to stand publicly and tell everyone how things should be handled?

I am seriously concerned if you do.


BTW, crazyhomie says he never rebukes people publicly while in the same breath rebuking me?


The guy has a problem. Seriously.

NO!

[triumphant1]

Good points. I agree. I think these are sinful behaviors. (laziness, not providing for family)



True, and I have seen some men who provide monetarily, but otherwise they're neglectful, and in some cases outright abusive. So providing has to be more than just a roof over their heads. On the flip side, I've seen some of the nicest, laid back, "fun" dads...whose big downfall was...not providing financial support.



I wish you had put something in your post I could object to. LOL. I agree, men who don't provide for their families, shouldn't be in positions of leadership. I do think its important to note that "provision" doesn't necessarily mean "providing wealth", but rather, providing necessities, and working hard in general.



Its very important. I wish more churches offered marital classes or family classes. (Parenting, financial planning, etc)

It just seems to me that if men are full of integrity, and can learn how to care for and lead their own families, following godly principles, that those leadership skills will naturally allow better leadership in the church.

We do offer these classes...matter of fact we just took our couples through Gary Smalley's "Homes of Honor" series...we are presently offering Dave Ramsey's "Financial Peace University"....and at our mens retreat 2 weeks ago we dealt with Dr. Doug Weiss' "God, Sex, and Men" including a "For Men Only" DVD where he deals with the issues very bluntly!!!!

THis type of teaching is a staple part of our discipleship process.

[Hegavmelif]

Everything reproduces after its own kind. its the most fundamental law of God.

ABSOLUTELY!! I completely agree. Some men get caught up in their arrogance and just spit out anything - all in the name of God and his precious, holy annointing.

By the way, I am not a pastor, but I have been involved in ministry in some capacity since I was a young adult. One does not need to be a pastor to know the manner in which humanity should be treated.

[philjones]

[/B]

ABSOLUTELY!! I completely agree. Some men get caught up in their arrogance and just spit out anything - all in the name of God and his precious, holy annointing.

By the way, I am not a pastor, but I have been involved in ministry in some capacity since I was a young adult. One does not need to be a pastor to know the manner in which humanity should be treated.

You are right in the bolded statement.. you could even be Jesus Christ, both God and humanity... and this is how you deal with other humanity that is out of line and in sin...

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as, a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Now argue with the words of Jesus if you thing public rebuke is never in order.

Cry aloud and spare not!

[delta soundman]

Just a question for Pastor Poster. How long have you been a pastor?

[Nahum]

Just a question for Pastor Poster. How long have you been a pastor?

Seven years, and I assisted for over a decade prior to that. How about you Friend? Are you a pastor?

[delta soundman]

Seven years, and I assisted for over a decade prior to that. How about you Friend? Are you a pastor?

Oh no! I'm not a pastor. I'm actually the guy delta guitar referred to earlier in this thread. No way I could be a pastor. I tend to handle the dirty work around the church. As you see by my name I'm the soundman so there is a few layers of tough skin there. For the past few years I handled spats that would arise between platform members, singers, musicians, various ministry folks. I told my pastor a long time ago that I would not come to him with avery nit picking problem that arose among "saints" that were on the platform. I instead told him I would deal with these situations and if I went to far just yank my coatails and I would back away. Being the soundman puts me in the position to se certain people in situations that my pastor isn't around to witness. I would generally take one of these folks aside away from the crowd and explain to them the way their actions looked to others in the church. Their attitudes, lack of dedication, or sense of entitlement that comes with people that have been born and raised in Pentecost. Like I said, the dirty work. I'm very analitical in thought. I'm very concerned in the impression that church members and vistors get from ministry on our platform. There have been a few that would go to the pastor and complain about the strong and ,in some cases, heavy handed approach I took with them. He would ask them why I i did or said what did to them. By the end of their conversation with the pastor they would see the error of their ways. I think every pastor needs one of those guys in their church. Micromanagement will kill a pastor. I know this was a long answer to just say "no I'm not a pastor."
I tend to do hat sometimes. God bless.
DS

[Nahum]

Oh no! I'm not a pastor. I'm actually the guy delta guitar referred to earlier in this thread. No way I could be a pastor. I tend to handle the dirty work around the church. As you see by my name I'm the soundman so there is a few layers of tough skin there. For the past few years I handled spats that would arise between platform members, singers, musicians, various ministry folks. I told my pastor a long time ago that I would not come to him with avery nit picking problem that arose among "saints" that were on the platform. I instead told him I would deal with these situations and if I went to far just yank my coatails and I would back away. Being the soundman puts me in the position to se certain people in situations that my pastor isn't around to witness. I would generally take one of these folks aside away from the crowd and explain to them the way their actions looked to others in the church. Their attitudes, lack of dedication, or sense of entitlement that comes with people that have been born and raised in Pentecost. Like I said, the dirty work. I'm very analitical in thought. I'm very concerned in the impression that church members and vistors get from ministry on our platform. There have been a few that would go to the pastor and complain about the strong and ,in some cases, heavy handed approach I took with them. He would ask them why I i did or said what did to them. By the end of their conversation with the pastor they would see the error of their ways. I think every pastor needs one of those guys in their church. Micromanagement will kill a pastor. I know this was a long answer to just say "no I'm not a pastor."
I tend to do hat sometimes. God bless.
DS

Most pastors would love to have someone strong and committed like you Bro.

I think some must have misunderstood my earlier posts on this thread. I don't go around rebuking people all of the time. This was an isolated incident that required immediate attention.

[delta soundman]

Most pastors would love to have someone strong and committed like you Bro.

I think some must have misunderstood my earlier posts on this thread. I don't go around rebuking people all of the time. This was an isolated incident that required immediate attention.

Looks like I've upset some people......again. PEOPLE IF YOU DONT WANT TO READ WHAT I HAVE SAY DON"T GET ON THE FORUM