Dividing over Oneness

[SDG]

Dividing Over Oneness
The Oneness movement pushed Pentecostals to organize
by Kenneth Gill

Christianity Today International/Christian History magazine. (http://ctlibrary.com/4279)

Preach in Jesus' Name,
teach in Jesus' Name
Heal the sick in his Name;
And always proclaim,
it was Jesus' Name
In which the power came;
Baptize in His name,
enduring the shame,
For there is victory in Jesus' Name.

So went one of the hymns of the Oneness Pentecostals, for whom Jesus was the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Their desire to recapture the mantle of the apostolic church started with questions over the proper formula to use in water baptism. But they were soon questioning even the doctrine of the Trinity.

In April 1913, a Pentecostal-Holiness meeting was held in Arroyo Seco, California. Between 1,500 and 2,000 Pentecostals, mainly pastors, attended the meetings each night, with hundreds more filling the camp on Sundays. It was here that Robert Edward McAlister, a respected Canadian minister, observed that though Jesus had told his disciples to "baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," the New Testament invariably records the apostles baptizing only "in the name of Jesus."

Pentecostal preacher Frank J. Ewart later said, "The gun was fired from that platform which was destined to resound throughout all Christendom."
In fact, by January 1915, the message had spread across the continent. Many of the Pentecostal faithful were rebaptized to follow the ways of the apostolic church. They believed older doctrines, long diseased by generations of unfaithfulness and the inability to heed God's Spirit, were being uncovered by this "new light" of the Holy Spirit.

For most of the new adherents, this was just a different formula for baptism, not a conscious rejection of the Trinity. Eventually, however, while Oneness Pentecostals worshiped God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the terms Trinity and persons were rejected as unbiblical.
Two in the Spirit

J. Roswell Flower, later secretary of the Assemblies of God (AG), was anxious not only about the apparent denial of orthodox doctrine but also with the potential this "new issue" had for creating division. He urged other leaders to call a meeting of the General Council to prevent it from spreading.

On October 1, 1915, 525 delegates met in St. Louis, ready for a confrontation. The Oneness adherents did not present an aggressive front, so no strong effort was made to censure them. Instead the council proposed a compromise. It specifically denounced the practice of rebaptism as well as a few other Oneness doctrines. But it acknowledged both formulas for baptism as Christian.

The Oneness Pentecostals became increasingly vocal after the council, and within a year, the AG delegates were back in St. Louis. They were to decide once and for all whether the denomination was big enough to accept Oneness adherents.

Since its formation in 1914, the group had rebelled against formal organization. They wanted to reestablish the church of the New Testament, and the New Testament gave no examples of organization beyond local churches. Creeds, "tradition," and power structures had corrupted the church and stifled the Holy Spirit.

So rather than address the doctrinal issues of the Trinity, the Oneness contingent (made up largely of African-Americans) stressed that they did not want to establish a set of doctrinal statements for the AG. In fact, they voted against every proposition that was raised.

Their strategy failed. A "Statement of Fundamental Truths," almost half of which was a repudiation of Oneness beliefs, was accepted as the AG standard. More than a quarter of those attending, 156 members, were forced to leave the AG and form new organizations (the most important of these were the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World and via several future mergers the United Pentecostal Church.) But because of the AG's reaction to the "new issue," the group became solidified as a denomination early in its history.

Many small Oneness groups formed after 1916, though many have remained independent. Today scholars estimate there are between 1.5 and 5 million Oneness Pentecostals worldwide, and they make up only a fraction of one percent of the world's Pentecostals.

Kenneth Gill is acting director of the Billy Graham Center Library in Wheaton, Illinois.

---------------------------------

Anyone agree or disagree w/ Gill's assertions in this article?

[Michael The Disciple]

What choice did they have? Truth is more important than unity. To unify around error is ludicrous.

[Titus2Mom]

Since its formation in 1914, the group had rebelled against formal organization. They wanted to reestablish the church of the New Testament, and the New Testament gave no examples of organization beyond local churches. Creeds, "tradition," and power structures had corrupted the church and stifled the Holy Spirit.

How quickly they slipped right back into "organization" and "tradition."
Seems people are having to "rebel" all over again, and still being called names because of it.

Seems an example of "those who don't learn their history are doomed to repeat it."

Very interesting article, thank you for posting it.

[mfblume]

He repeated the historical facts correctly. But "deep waters"?

[stmatthew]

He repeated the historical facts correctly. But "deep waters"?

I agree.

Danial, I am going to move this back over to FH. I think it is an excellent topic of discussion, and could become doctrinal, but is more history at present.

[chaotic_resolve]

DA - is this just an excerpt of the article? It seems incomplete... Or is it just a factoid and not a regular article?

Maybe it's just me, but while it's straight and to the point, not sure what the point is. It seems rather empty . . . like a factoid.

[Praxeas]

The sad thing is here on this board people who claim to be Oneness are divided. When a Trinitarian comes and attacks our doctrine I have seen people who claim to be oneness start attacking other Oneness Pentecostals personally and arguing against Oneness arguments while patting the Trinitarian on the back rather than refuting the Trinitarians arguments.

And I wonder if this is not how it went in the first 4 centuries till the point tongues and a oneness view of the godhead all but disappeared.

If OPs from within and without the UPCI, because this is an OP thing and not a UPCI thing, do not re-unite morally it will always be a second place finisher to the Trinitarian churches. The problem is not that the UPCI has not yet approved TV. The problem is that the only enemy we seem to have in common is each other.

[Barb]

Dividing Over Oneness
The Oneness movement pushed Pentecostals to organize
by Kenneth Gill

Christianity Today International/Christian History magazine. (http://ctlibrary.com/4279)

Preach in Jesus' Name,
teach in Jesus' Name
Heal the sick in his Name;
And always proclaim,
it was Jesus' Name
In which the power came;
Baptize in His name,
enduring the shame,
For there is victory in Jesus' Name.


This song was written by Bishop Haywood...

[Barb]

The sad thing is here on this board people who claim to be Oneness are divided. When a Trinitarian comes and attacks our doctrine I have seen people who claim to be oneness start attacking other Oneness Pentecostals personally and arguing against Oneness arguments while patting the Trinitarian on the back rather than refuting the Trinitarians arguments.

And I wonder if this is not how it went in the first 4 centuries till the point tongues and a oneness view of the godhead all but disappeared.

If OPs from within and without the UPCI, because this is an OP thing and not a UPCI thing, do not re-unite morally it will always be a second place finisher to the Trinitarian churches. The problem is not that the UPCI has not yet approved TV. The problem is that the only enemy we seem to have in common is each other.
I agree...

[pelathais]

The sad thing is here on this board people who claim to be Oneness are divided. When a Trinitarian comes and attacks our doctrine I have seen people who claim to be oneness start attacking other Oneness Pentecostals personally and arguing against Oneness arguments while patting the Trinitarian on the back rather than refuting the Trinitarians arguments.

And I wonder if this is not how it went in the first 4 centuries till the point tongues and a oneness view of the godhead all but disappeared.

If OPs from within and without the UPCI, because this is an OP thing and not a UPCI thing, do not re-unite morally it will always be a second place finisher to the Trinitarian churches. The problem is not that the UPCI has not yet approved TV. The problem is that the only enemy we seem to have in common is each other.
I think that I share you sentiments about Oneness theology, however I don't think this board reflects the dynamics of the early church.

Also, I would argue with Gill's assertion that Oneness people "make up only a fraction of one percent of the world's Pentecostals." I don't have any numbers handy right now, but that sounds too low. Talmadge French published some studies several years ago and I seem to remember the numbers being a lot higher.

[Barb]

I think that I share you sentiments about Oneness theology, however I don't think this board reflects the dynamics of the early church.

Also, I would argue with Gill's assertion that Oneness people "make up only a fraction of one percent of the world's Pentecostals." I don't have any numbers handy right now, but that sounds too low. Talmadge French published some studies several years ago and I seem to remember the numbers being a lot higher.

Yes, this is true, but you will find that many here do not agree with his findings.

I do...

[bishoph]

These numbers are purposely skewed! The UPCI alone a couple of years ago boasted nearly 4,000,000 with 1/2 being the Ethiopian church under Teklemariam.

[Michael The Disciple]

What is an example of a Oneness patting a Trinitarian "enemy" on the back?

[ChicagoPastor]

Dividing Over Oneness
The Oneness movement pushed Pentecostals to organize
by Kenneth Gill


Many small Oneness groups formed after 1916, though many have remained independent. Today scholars estimate there are between 1.5 and 5 million Oneness Pentecostals worldwide, and they make up only a fraction of one percent of the world's Pentecostals.

Kenneth Gill is acting director of the Billy Graham Center Library in Wheaton, Illinois.

---------------------------------

Anyone agree or disagree w/ Gill's assertions in this article?


This has to be old info....according to Bro. French there are over 24 million Oneness Pentecostals in the world

[Sam]

This has to be old info....according to Bro. French there are over 24 million Oneness Pentecostals in the world

I have read/heard that there about 500 million Pentecostals/Charismatics in the world.

[pelathais]

This has to be old info....according to Bro. French there are over 24 million Oneness Pentecostals in the world
I have read/heard that there about 500 million Pentecostals/Charismatics in the world.
Using these two figures it comes out to almost 5%.

But 500 million? Evangelistically speaking? That's 1/2 a Billion.

"According to The World Christian Encyclopedia, edited by David B. Barret New York, 1982), the world-wide total of Pentecostals is estimated at claiming close to one hundred million adherents." (http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/penta.html)

Using those numbers it comes to about 24-25%. Something between a quarter and a third seems to fit with my experience.

[Hoovie]

Using these two figures it comes out to almost 5%.

But 500 million? Evangelistically speaking? That's 1/2 a Billion.

"According to The World Christian Encyclopedia, edited by David B. Barret New York, 1982), the world-wide total of Pentecostals is estimated at claiming close to one hundred million adherents." (http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/penta.html)

Using those numbers it comes to about 24-25%. Something between a quarter and a third seems to fit with my experience.

At the cenntenial Azusa Street celebration they used official numbers and came up with something just under 600 million. Of course in some cases (such as the COGIC) one could call the "official numbers" into question.

French, I believe, documented over 23 million but estimated the actual number may be as high as 30 million due to statisic issues in some places such as China.

[Praxeas]

What is an example of a Oneness patting a Trinitarian "enemy" on the back?
Who said "enemy"?

And by patting on the back I meant that is a metaphor for supporting someone else...like high fiving someone over what they said

[pelathais]

At the cenntenial Azusa Street celebration they used official numbers and came up with something just under 600 million. Of course in some cases (such as the COGIC) one could call the "official numbers" into question.

French, I believe, documented over 23 million but estimated the actual number may be as high as 30 million due to statisic issues in some places such as China.
I dunno. It is estimated that there are 1.5 billion Christians in the world. Of that number- 600 million are "Pentecostal/Charismatic?" That's 40% of all Christians.

[AGAPE]

One Lord. One Faith. One Baptism. One God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The Trinity Is A Damnable Doctrine From The Pits Of Hell!!!!!!!!

[Steve Epley]

Some of the article was not historically correct the majority of the Oneness men there were not black however Bishop Haywood according to history did much of the speaking because of his eloquence. I wonder how much research is really put in by an outsider? I think some just scroll the net and do surface research.

[Sam]

I have read/heard that there about 500 million Pentecostals/Charismatics in the world.

That 500 million (or 600 million like someone used in this thread) do not all go to Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. Many would be members of denominations but they have been baptized in the Spirit. Some do go to Charismatic/Pentecostal churches but have not personally received the HGB but believe in the experience. This would be like the Methodist Church group in Chile. I don't think the 500 million are active tongue talkers.

[pelathais]

One Lord. One Faith. One Baptism. One God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The Trinity Is A Damnable Doctrine From The Pits Of Hell!!!!!!!!
I have always advocated a Oneness view of God, since I was 11 years old and first picked up a Bible to try and figure out what everyone was talking about. That's been more than 35 years now. I just say that to introduce to myself to you.

That being said, I find your statement here reflects poorly on both your screen name and on your understanding of the "Doctrine of the Trinity." I may be wrong, it's certainly possible that in 35+ years that I have missed something.

But can you demonstrate, or "prove" the assertion that you made? Can you really show me that "the Doctrine of the Trinity" had its origins "in the pits of hell?" Are you even aware of the historical development of the doctrine? I recommend 2 book excellent books by David Bernard: Oneness and Trinity, A.D. 100-300 and Trinitarian Controversy in the Fourth Century. You can get them as a part of the complete works of DKB in electronic format at: the PPH (http://www.pentecostalpublishing.com/Home/home_details.asp?product_id=717&subject=0&author_id=43).

[Steve Epley]

I have always advocated a Oneness view of God, since I was 11 years old and first picked up a Bible to try and figure out what everyone was talking about. That's been more than 35 years now. I just say that to introduce to myself to you.

That being said, I find your statement here reflects poorly on both your screen name and on your understanding of the "Doctrine of the Trinity." I may be wrong, it's certainly possible that in 35+ years that I have missed something.

But can you demonstrate, or "prove" the assertion that you made? Can you really show me that "the Doctrine of the Trinity" had its origins "in the pits of hell?" Are you even aware of the historical development of the doctrine? I recommend 2 book excellent books by David Bernard: Oneness and Trinity, A.D. 100-300 and Trinitarian Controversy in the Fourth Century. You can get them as a part of the complete works of DKB in electronic format at: the PPH (http://www.pentecostalpublishing.com/Home/home_details.asp?product_id=717&subject=0&author_id=43).

Please elaborate? I believe some doctrines are inspired by demons. And this is on of them.

[Ferd]

One thing you can say without question is the doctrine of the trinity has prevented 2000 years worth of christians to die without baptism in Jesus' name.

[pelathais]

Please elaborate? I believe some doctrines are inspired by demons. And this is on of them.
Thanks, Elder. :) But my question first: "Can you demonstrate, or 'prove' that the Doctrine of the Trinity has its origins 'in the pits of hell'?" Imagine that you had that as an assignment in a Bible College class. How would you start? What can you show for evidence?

And remember, I'm already on your side of the Oneness argument, so I'll be a sympathetic listener.

I've got the same "challenge" out on another thread concerning John 3:5. I said that the statement "born of the water" in that verse does not refer to water baptism. My point being, Acts 2:38 contains the "whole package" salvation message, but John 3:5 does not. Again, I'm already on the side that says the Bible clearly teaches "baptism in Jesus name for the remission of sins," so you'll have a sympathetic ear for your argument on this one as well.

Let me tack this on: my counter arguments will rely heavily upon the books I mentioned in the earlier post: "I recommend 2 excellent books by David Bernard: Oneness and Trinity, A.D. 100-300 and Trinitarian Controversy in the Fourth Century. You can get them as a part of the complete works of DKB in electronic format at: the PPH (http://www.pentecostalpublishing.com/Home/home_details.asp?product_id=717&subject=0&author_id=43)."

[kenod]

But my question first: "Can you demonstrate, or 'prove' that the Doctrine of the Trinity has its origins 'in the pits of hell'?" Imagine that you had that as an assignment in a Bible College class. How would you start? What can you show for evidence?

And remember, I'm already on your side of the Oneness argument, so I'll be a sympathetic listener.

I'm sorry this discussion petered out ... I was following it with interest.
Just let me throw this in: There was some argy bargy going on among Callistus, Hippolytus and Sabellius early in the 3rd century. Sabellius gets branded a heretic by the other two, both of who seem to be far from representing the Spirit of Christ.

I have not seen much historical documentary evidence linking the many gods of Roman society to the doctrine of the Trinity. However, we do know that as the church became more politicised, especially after Constantine, that the 'three distinct persons' gradually came to dominate. It is difficult to esacpe the conclusion that this was influenced by the cultural background of the times in which they lived.

Probably more easily detectable are the influences of Greek philosophy on the develpment of Christian thought in the early church. This has been explored by a number of authors, including Trinitarian ones (New Dictionary of Christian Theology). "As a result Christianity was removed from its roots in primitive Christianity and Hebrew modes of thought and became much an exercise in abstract thought and speculative metaphysics" (Is God a Trinity - David Kemball-Cook).