View Full Version : *** TV Resolution Passes: The Fallout
1065 yes
982 no
What will be the fallout???
rgcraig
09-28-2007, 10:01 AM
We should have lined someone up to be outside to get interviews as they were leaving!!!!!
Starbucks
09-28-2007, 10:06 AM
1065 yes
982 no
What will be the fallout???
What will happen to those who were not for Res 4 if the church they pastor is affiliated with the UPC?
Reports are there was applause after the announcement of passage ... no public displays of frustration or anger ...kudos on show civility ...
Rumors abound on the percentage of ministers that will pull out.
The AMF will benifit. that is my prediction.
aquestioninggirl
09-28-2007, 10:10 AM
We should have lined someone up to be outside to get interviews as they were leaving!!!!!
And put it on You Tube!!! That would have been great.....
Maple Leaf
09-28-2007, 10:11 AM
The fallout?
UPCI ministers will now be allowed to advertise on television,
but they'll have to go down to the mall to legally watch their own commercials. :killinme
Seems a little silly from the cheap seats where I'm sitting.
The fallout?
UPCI ministers will now be allowed to advertise on television,
but they'll have to go down to the mall to legally watch their own commercials. :killinme
Seems a little silly from the cheap seats where I'm sitting.
Exactly ... now this inconsistency will be addressed ... give it about 5 years.
LaGirl
09-28-2007, 10:12 AM
We should have lined someone up to be outside to get interviews as they were leaving!!!!!
THAT WOULD BE COOL!!!
mizpeh
09-28-2007, 10:12 AM
Were there any ammendments to Res 4?
Were there any ammendments to Res 4?
None .. which makes this more amazing ... Mangun and Baxter will start their TV ministries soon.
Joseph
09-28-2007, 10:17 AM
The AMF will benifit. that is my prediction.
No, most will take the independent route.
IBCrazier2
09-28-2007, 10:21 AM
Why would they want to be linked with anything that would cause them to come up with more ways to beat the system ... (insert smiley here) ... when they can be the system.... tic
BoredOutOfMyMind
09-28-2007, 10:21 AM
The fallout?
UPCI ministers will now be allowed to advertise on television,
but they'll have to go down to the mall to legally watch their own commercials. :killinme
Seems a little silly from the cheap seats where I'm sitting.
Considering they did nothing about those abusing the old rules.... silly is a kind word.
:coffee2
mfblume
09-28-2007, 10:46 AM
FINALLY!
Sister Alvear
09-28-2007, 10:49 AM
I doubt if few go the AMF route...
No, most will take the independent route.
Friend, if you know anything, you know that the AMF as a body is larger than their official membership. many of the UPCI guys that dont join this new mysterious organization, will remain independant but will likely be much closer to the AMF and will attend their functions....in greater numbers than they already do.
the AMF will benifit.
Friend, if you know anything, you know that the AMF as a body is larger than their official membership. many of the UPCI guys that dont join this new mysterious organization, will remain independant but will likely be much closer to the AMF and will attend their functions....in greater numbers than they already do.
the AMF will benifit.
The new org will get the bulk of cons.
Digging4Truth
09-28-2007, 11:05 AM
If a group pulls out will this, in any way, be different than a group in a local church pulling out and starting their own work because they don't like something that went on?
Lucy Van Pelt
09-28-2007, 11:14 AM
It's about time.
The AMF will benifit. that is my prediction.
For men who would feel comfortable in the AMF this resolution was the least of their issues with the UPC.
James Griffin
09-28-2007, 11:19 AM
If a group pulls out will this, in any way, be different than a group in a local church pulling out and starting their own work because they don't like something that went on?
Really do not see that to be a problem as much as refusing to fellowship with anyone who does not agree with every single rule. With that mentality it seems just a matter of time before they split among themselves over the trimming split ends debate.
Stephanas
09-28-2007, 11:39 AM
"Live by the sword; Die by the sword"
There is a certain sense of poetic justice in today's events.
In 1992 the more conservative brethren wielded a political sword to cut off more liberal brethren.
Today the same political sword has cut them off with its back swing.
Perhaps the UPCI will finally have the great revival it has talked about for so long when it gets its numbers pared down to Gideon's 300.
kylady
09-28-2007, 11:40 AM
What is the AMF?
"Live by the sword; Die by the sword"
There is a certain sense of poetic justice in today's events.
In 1992 the more conservative brethren wielded a political sword to cut off more liberal brethren.
Today the same political sword has cut them off with its back swing.
Perhaps the UPCI will finally have the great revival it has talked about for so long when it gets its numbers pared down to Gideon's 300.
MMM .... so much truth in this thread ... Where art thou, Westburg?
redeemedcynic84
09-28-2007, 11:42 AM
so... if a mass amount of UCs pull out...
doesn't that make it easier to pass resolutions eliminating standards of various flavors that are superfulous and stupid??
(read: not all are stupid, but some are extremely stupid)
The new org will get the bulk of cons.
I think you may be right....IF it happens. I dont know if it will happen.
even still, the new org will fellowship the AMF. I would bet on that.
so... if a mass amount of UCs pull out...
doesn't that make it easier to pass resolutions eliminating standards of various flavors that are superfulous and stupid??
(read: not all are stupid, but some are extremely stupid)
Not really. there are more men in the MOD to Con range that are still in who still believe in Holiness as understood by the current UPCI.
the UPCI is STILL a holiness organization (thank God.)
redeemedcynic84
09-28-2007, 11:54 AM
Not really. there are more men in the MOD to Con range that are still in who still believe in Holiness as understood by the current UPCI.
the UPCI is STILL a holiness organization (thank God.)
I'm not saying everything is going to change...
I'm saying the ultra-silly ones...
like I've always heard there were still places where they preached its sinful to wear colored dress-shirts under your suit jacket... or you can't wear a wedding band... or you can't wear certain colors to church... or other completely nonsensical things...
I'm not talking about the majority of the standards, really... just those kind of nonsensical ones...
Margies3
09-28-2007, 11:56 AM
I have what may sound like a very stupid question but I'm gonna ask it anyway.......................
Way back in the late '60's, the church I attended was independent. It had been started that way and had never joined any organization. then we got a pastor who was UPC and shortly after it was decided that the church itself would become UPC. My understanding at that point was that the UPC now could claim ownership of the church building and property. And that if the church ever folded (which I expect this one to do sometime in the next few years), then the building and the property would go to the UPC organization and they would decide what to do with it. If they sold it, the monies from the sale would become the property of the organization - not the congregation who had funded this thing for all these years. Am I right? Did I understand this right?
So my question becomes - if all of these pastors and/or churches pull out as some expect, what in the world will the UPC organization do with all of the buildings and properties? They will need to form a whole new division just to handle real estate, doncha think???
StillStanding
09-28-2007, 11:58 AM
I may be putting the cart before the horse, but do you think a resolution will be allowed in the future which does away with the AS?
Theophilus
09-28-2007, 12:08 PM
The fallout: The UPCi will become just another glorified Baptist fundraiser plagued with empty emotionalism and conversations about what was on TV last night.
Meanwhile, what is really going on in the Kingdom will go largely unnoticed.
QueenEsther
09-28-2007, 12:22 PM
I have what may sound like a very stupid question but I'm gonna ask it anyway.......................
Way back in the late '60's, the church I attended was independent. It had been started that way and had never joined any organization. then we got a pastor who was UPC and shortly after it was decided that the church itself would become UPC. My understanding at that point was that the UPC now could claim ownership of the church building and property. And that if the church ever folded (which I expect this one to do sometime in the next few years), then the building and the property would go to the UPC organization and they would decide what to do with it. If they sold it, the monies from the sale would become the property of the organization - not the congregation who had funded this thing for all these years. Am I right? Did I understand this right?
So my question becomes - if all of these pastors and/or churches pull out as some expect, what in the world will the UPC organization do with all of the buildings and properties? They will need to form a whole new division just to handle real estate, doncha think???
Hopefully, it will just be filled with another UPC church....but I don't know what all the "rules" are.
Coonskinner
09-28-2007, 12:23 PM
Reports are there was applause after the announcement of passage ... no public displays of frustration or anger ...kudos on show civility ...
Rumors abound on the percentage of ministers that will pull out.
There was no applause.
It was very quiet.
chseeads
09-28-2007, 12:28 PM
I'm not saying everything is going to change...
I'm saying the ultra-silly ones...
like I've always heard there were still places where they preached its sinful to wear colored dress-shirts under your suit jacket... or you can't wear a wedding band... or you can't wear certain colors to church... or other completely nonsensical things...
I'm not talking about the majority of the standards, really... just those kind of nonsensical ones...
There would be no resolution for that kind of thing, those are not things that are in the manual.
James Griffin
09-28-2007, 12:29 PM
The fallout: The UPCi will become just another glorified Baptist fundraiser plagued with empty emotionalism and conversations about what was on TV last night.
Meanwhile, what is really going on in the Kingdom will go largely unnoticed.
Not sure about the first part, I have more faith in the organization than that, but the second part is true. TV ministry will not be the panacea for evangelism that they think. It will result in a few UPC mega churches. Nothing more. True evangelism is one on one. As is discipleship. No technology will ever change that. House to house. Person to person.
Nahum
09-28-2007, 12:29 PM
There was no applause immediately afterward.
The entire session was quite civil.
I am still in complete shock.
I am still waiting for the hammer to fall.
TRIPLE E
09-28-2007, 12:29 PM
The fallout?
UPCI ministers will now be allowed to advertise on television,
but they'll have to go down to the mall to legally watch their own commercials. :killinme
Seems a little silly from the cheap seats where I'm sitting.
Now we have a reason to turn the TV on in the motel room!
Pragmatist
09-28-2007, 12:31 PM
I have what may sound like a very stupid question but I'm gonna ask it anyway.......................
Way back in the late '60's, the church I attended was independent. It had been started that way and had never joined any organization. then we got a pastor who was UPC and shortly after it was decided that the church itself would become UPC. My understanding at that point was that the UPC now could claim ownership of the church building and property. And that if the church ever folded (which I expect this one to do sometime in the next few years), then the building and the property would go to the UPC organization and they would decide what to do with it. If they sold it, the monies from the sale would become the property of the organization - not the congregation who had funded this thing for all these years. Am I right? Did I understand this right?
So my question becomes - if all of these pastors and/or churches pull out as some expect, what in the world will the UPC organization do with all of the buildings and properties? They will need to form a whole new division just to handle real estate, doncha think???
If the church is affiliated the property belongs to the UPC; if not, it doesn't. The church can become unaffiliated before the pastor turns in his license.
LadyRev
09-28-2007, 12:34 PM
The AMF will benifit. that is my prediction.
Some of us don't have the AMF option IF we even wanted an option.
James Griffin
09-28-2007, 12:35 PM
I have what may sound like a very stupid question but I'm gonna ask it anyway.......................
Way back in the late '60's, the church I attended was independent. It had been started that way and had never joined any organization. then we got a pastor who was UPC and shortly after it was decided that the church itself would become UPC. My understanding at that point was that the UPC now could claim ownership of the church building and property. And that if the church ever folded (which I expect this one to do sometime in the next few years), then the building and the property would go to the UPC organization and they would decide what to do with it. If they sold it, the monies from the sale would become the property of the organization - not the congregation who had funded this thing for all these years. Am I right? Did I understand this right?
So my question becomes - if all of these pastors and/or churches pull out as some expect, what in the world will the UPC organization do with all of the buildings and properties? They will need to form a whole new division just to handle real estate, doncha think???
Who would own the property would depend on how the corporate charter of the 501 c 3 is set up. I believe the majority of the time now the church congregation owns the property and affiliation is done through the pastor only. Some of the "older" churches were not set up that way.
Hope this helps.
I may be putting the cart before the horse, but do you think a resolution will be allowed in the future which does away with the AS?
Let's hope so.
Theophilus
09-28-2007, 12:43 PM
Not sure about the first part, I have more faith in the organization than that, but the second part is true. TV ministry will not be the panacea for evangelism that they think. It will result in a few UPC mega churches. Nothing more. True evangelism is one on one. As is discipleship. No technology will ever change that. House to house. Person to person.
I quite agree James Griffin. I quite agree.
The first part was just for fun. With all the outrageous predictions swirling about, I thought I might as well get a good chuckle out of what comes to mind as an outside possibility if the right people don't stick it out and help to give balance to the increasing obsurdity from those that spend more time in front of the TV than the Word. :sshhh
Strongminded
09-28-2007, 12:49 PM
The thing that made this so powerful is it is NOT limited to advertising.
I INCLUDES ministry!
Irvin Baxter - "Advertising will serve no purpose whatsoever, we need an up or down vote on television ministry, no to the amendment"
WOW!
The thing that made this so powerful is it is NOT limited to advertising.
I INCLUDES ministry!
Irvin Baxter - "Advertising will serve no purpose whatsoever, we need an up or down vote on television ministry, no to the amendment"
WOW!
A calculated risk by Baxter that paid dividends.
James Griffin
09-28-2007, 12:55 PM
Gee Dan going for 11,000 so soon
AmazingGrace
09-28-2007, 01:01 PM
Doesnt take much on a day like this LOL... congrats Dan
James Griffin
09-28-2007, 01:16 PM
Doesnt take much on a day like this LOL... congrats Dan
Does anyone anywhere have an actual copy of the resolution?
Restrictions if any on advertising? Time limits? Content?
1065 yes
982 no
What will be the fallout???
If 10% of no left it would be 98.
pentecostisalive
09-28-2007, 01:21 PM
If 10% of no left it would be 98.
That would be 98 of the people that were there. However, you have many that would not be there that also would leave with them.
If you have a couple big names leave, and the people that consider them a bishop to them follow them out, then it could add up really quickly.
If another organization is formed as a viable option, with a couple of well-known leaders with big churches at the head, then even more might leave.
We shall see.
That would be 98 of the people that were there. However, you have many that would not be there that also would leave with them.
If you have a couple big names leave, and the people that consider them a bishop to them follow them out, then it could add up really quickly.
If another organization is formed as a viable option, with a couple of well-known leaders with big churches at the head, then even more might leave.
We shall see.
Right that 98 ... or 10% has exponential POTENTIAL.
atleast 300-400 would probably leave???
redeemedcynic84
09-28-2007, 01:36 PM
Right that 98 ... or 10% has exponential POTENTIAL.
atleast 300-400
3-400 is not exponential of 98... lol
at least you didn't say it was gonna rise at a "geometric rate", though... So I'll forgive you... lol
Those leaving could be offset by some ALJC ministers coming in.
redeemedcynic84
09-28-2007, 01:37 PM
Those leaving could be offset by some ALJC ministers coming in.
I was thinking about that...
how many non-UPC ministers would be willing to join the UPC after this resolution??? Will any of the smaller orgs on teh whole be willing to join up now that the tv thing is passed???
BrotherEastman
09-28-2007, 02:17 PM
Who is AMF? I'm not sure I've heard of them?
HangingOut
09-28-2007, 02:20 PM
Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship, formed over 30 years ago, names like Murray Burr, Carl Ballestero, Steve Epley can give you the rest.
Who is AMF? I'm not sure I've heard of them?
BrotherEastman
09-28-2007, 02:23 PM
Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship, formed over 30 years ago, names like Murray Burr, Carl Ballestero, Steve Epley can give you the rest.
Do they have a website?
HangingOut
09-28-2007, 02:25 PM
Heavens no. Not in favor of internet use.
Do they have a website?
rgcraig
09-28-2007, 02:27 PM
Heavens no. Not in favor of internet use.
Well, at least they are consistent.
chseeads
09-28-2007, 02:28 PM
Well, at least they are consistent.
Partly. :D
BrotherEastman
09-28-2007, 02:28 PM
Heavens no. Not in favor of internet use.
So then, Is Steve Epley with the AMF?
HangingOut
09-28-2007, 02:28 PM
True, Elder Epely claims they don't take a formal stand however. I find that hard to fathom.
Well, at least they are consistent.
Coonskinner
09-28-2007, 02:29 PM
They have no official stance against internet.
HangingOut
09-28-2007, 02:31 PM
By the way Renda, anyone in MO likely to pull out over Res 4?
HeavenlyOne
09-28-2007, 03:50 PM
I have what may sound like a very stupid question but I'm gonna ask it anyway.......................
Way back in the late '60's, the church I attended was independent. It had been started that way and had never joined any organization. then we got a pastor who was UPC and shortly after it was decided that the church itself would become UPC. My understanding at that point was that the UPC now could claim ownership of the church building and property. And that if the church ever folded (which I expect this one to do sometime in the next few years), then the building and the property would go to the UPC organization and they would decide what to do with it. If they sold it, the monies from the sale would become the property of the organization - not the congregation who had funded this thing for all these years. Am I right? Did I understand this right?
So my question becomes - if all of these pastors and/or churches pull out as some expect, what in the world will the UPC organization do with all of the buildings and properties? They will need to form a whole new division just to handle real estate, doncha think???
Many churches are 'unaffiliated'. This means that while the pastor is licensed by the UPC, the UPC has no say-so with the church people nor the property should anything happen to the pastor. That's a good thing.
rgcraig
09-28-2007, 03:52 PM
By the way Renda, anyone in MO likely to pull out over Res 4?
Wouldn't know - I'm in TN.
HeavenlyOne
09-28-2007, 03:52 PM
Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship, formed over 30 years ago, names like Murray Burr, Carl Ballestero, Steve Epley can give you the rest.
Do they have a website?
Heavens no. Not in favor of internet use.
Well, at least they are consistent.
??????????????????????
Then why do their members use the internet??
Scott Hutchinson
09-28-2007, 03:54 PM
My question is what new org will be emerging ?
BobDylan
09-28-2007, 04:11 PM
Not really. there are more men in the MOD to Con range that are still in who still believe in Holiness as understood by the current UPCI.
the UPCI is STILL a holiness organization (thank God.)
Some people equate holiness, and a particular stand on advertising on television... I think that mentality is sad. Holiness is much deeper than advertising on television... AND, advertising on televesion does not violate biblical holiness... IMO (if someone sees how it does, please offer your position, thanks).
BobDylan
09-28-2007, 04:15 PM
I have what may sound like a very stupid question but I'm gonna ask it anyway.......................
Way back in the late '60's, the church I attended was independent. It had been started that way and had never joined any organization. then we got a pastor who was UPC and shortly after it was decided that the church itself would become UPC. My understanding at that point was that the UPC now could claim ownership of the church building and property. And that if the church ever folded (which I expect this one to do sometime in the next few years), then the building and the property would go to the UPC organization and they would decide what to do with it. If they sold it, the monies from the sale would become the property of the organization - not the congregation who had funded this thing for all these years. Am I right? Did I understand this right?
So my question becomes - if all of these pastors and/or churches pull out as some expect, what in the world will the UPC organization do with all of the buildings and properties? They will need to form a whole new division just to handle real estate, doncha think???
First, before the pastor drops license, he disaffiliates the entire church. This is a parliamentary procedure that when completed precludes the UPCI from any decision making in the local assembly. Then, after this is finalized, the pastor allows his license to lapse.. The church at this time is effectively an independent church, with independet pastor.
BobDylan
09-28-2007, 04:17 PM
Some of us don't have the AMF option IF we even wanted an option.
You wouldn't want it....
Scott Hutchinson
09-28-2007, 04:20 PM
Can't churches be incorporated and give licenses though the local assembly ?
I think a church can be non-incorporated and give licenses though a local church ?
mjmac
09-28-2007, 04:24 PM
When I saw your avatar, I couldn't help but think of the words of that Dylan song.
This seems to be the exception to the rule. Usually the conservative faction has won the votes!
BobDylan
09-28-2007, 04:25 PM
3-400 is not exponential of 98... lol
at least you didn't say it was gonna rise at a "geometric rate", though... So I'll forgive you... lol
Actually, it is.... think 98^(1.3068)..... that exponent will give you about 400... :hypercoffee
Also, if you graph it on a cartisian coordinate, there will be a graphic geometric quality to the exponent itself... ;)
BobDylan
09-28-2007, 04:27 PM
When I saw your avatar, I couldn't help but think of the words of that Dylan song.
This seems to be the exception to the rule. Usually the conservative faction has won the votes!
:slaphappy
James Griffin
09-28-2007, 04:46 PM
First, before the pastor drops license, he disaffiliates the entire church. This is a parliamentary procedure that when completed precludes the UPCI from any decision making in the local assembly. Then, after this is finalized, the pastor allows his license to lapse.. The church at this time is effectively an independent church, with independet pastor.
Who would own the property would depend on how the corporate charter of the 501 c 3 is set up. I believe the majority of the time now the church congregation owns the property and affiliation is done through the pastor only. Some of the "older" churches were not set up that way.
Hope this helps.
James Griffin
09-28-2007, 04:48 PM
Can't churches be incorporated and give licenses though the local assembly ?
I think a church can be non-incorporated and give licenses though a local church ?
Anyone can issue a ministerial license. The issue becomes what do you want to do with it? IRS for example would have tests on whether one could apply for tax benefits because of it. But other than that anyone can issue license incorporated or not.
BobDylan
09-28-2007, 07:09 PM
Who would own the property would depend on how the corporate charter of the 501 c 3 is set up. I believe the majority of the time now the church congregation owns the property and affiliation is done through the pastor only. Some of the "older" churches were not set up that way.
Hope this helps.
Usually an internal or external "board of trustees", as a deacon board, or a board of elders, with the pastor being the CEO of the corporation (i.e. church name) is how the property is handled.... i think! ;)
redeemedcynic84
09-28-2007, 07:56 PM
Actually, it is.... think 98^(1.3068)..... that exponent will give you about 400... :hypercoffee
Also, if you graph it on a cartisian coordinate, there will be a graphic geometric quality to the exponent itself... ;)
[petpeeve]
lol, it has a "geometric quality", but to say something rises at a "geometric rate" is a nonsense statement, because "geometry" is about shapes and areas and there is no "rising" really, in that... lol
[/pet peeve]
and generally speaking, 98^(1.3068) isn't really considered "exponential" lets at least make it a minimum of ^2 before we call something exponential...
Hoovie
09-28-2007, 07:59 PM
Exactly ... now this inconsistency will be addressed ... give it about 5 years.
Sooner.
Hoovie
09-28-2007, 08:03 PM
By the way Renda, anyone in MO likely to pull out over Res 4?
I know of no sizable church that would withdraw in MO.
BobDylan
09-28-2007, 08:21 PM
[petpeeve]
lol, it has a "geometric quality", but to say something rises at a "geometric rate" is a nonsense statement, because "geometry" is about shapes and areas and there is no "rising" really, in that... lol
[/pet peeve]
and generally speaking, 98^(1.3068) isn't really considered "exponential" lets at least make it a minimum of ^2 before we call something exponential...
so, what exactly are the "petpeeve" and "mathgeek" html tags actually supposed to do? haha
RevDWW
09-28-2007, 09:01 PM
How many who voted against it will be hoping anyone using TV will fallout?
redeemedcynic84
09-28-2007, 09:06 PM
so, what exactly are the "petpeeve" and "mathgeek" html tags actually supposed to do? haha
nothing... just pointing out that I was in "petpeeve" mode and "mathgeek" mode...
its "schtick" (a silly/funny/humourous mode of posting) from another board that I do out of habit...
James Griffin
09-28-2007, 09:54 PM
Usually an internal or external "board of trustees", as a deacon board, or a board of elders, with the pastor being the CEO of the corporation (i.e. church name) is how the property is handled.... i think! ;)
It can be structured any way the articles of incorporation and/or corporate charter dictate. But yes a structure similar to what you described is common
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