Dear Kansas Preacher,

[Nahum]

I appreciate you, and wish you would stay.

I have not been around as long as you have, but I can understand the sense of vestment you have felt toward the organization, and how hurt you must be at the direction we have taken.

I wish you nothing but the richest favor of God.

PP

[SDG]

I appreciate you, and wish you would stay.

I have not been around as long as you have, but I can understand the sense of vestment you have felt toward the organization, and how hurt you must be at the direction we have taken.

I wish you nothing but the richest favor of God.

PP

I can understand, also, how difficult this must be on those who have invested their tears, sweat, finances, time and lives into the organization. I'm sure they will prayerfully make the proper decisions and do what their conscience dictates.

[J-Roc]

:nothingtoadd

[Barb]

Integrity is a precious thing. It's value in the life of anyone, and in particular in ministry, cannot be measured in human understanding.

So valuable is integrity that it cannot and should not be discarded or treated lightly, for when it is gone, it is almost impossible to retrieve it.

I admire those who stand firm in convictions and don't warble between "is it sin or weight?!" For everyone who follows their own will and deceptive way, there are many more who will not bend or bow.

In my almost 56 years of living I have known many with this virtue, and there are many on this board with this God given integrity, as well many more in the United Pentecostal Church who are not a part of this forum.

The decisions you will make in the days to come may not be easy, but I pray they will be in the divine will of the Lord.

Whatever you decide, may you know that the Church of the living God is with you, praying God speed.

[Praxeas]

I can understand, also, how difficult this must be on those who have invested their tears, sweat, finances, time and lives into the organization. I'm sure they will prayerfully make the proper decisions and do what their conscience dictates.
I don't understand it....well first of all I don't understand such an emotional attachment to an organization of men that was meant to unify us to be stronger so we can spread the Apostolic message everywhere. This resolution does not change that at all. If anything it enhances it. The org though became more about control then it did about unifying to spread the gospel.

I think we lost sight of what the organization was supposed to be to begin with. We looked at the org as a means of controlling others. We grew an organization rather than allowing the organization to facilitate spreading the word. As a result we fell way behind other orgs like the AOG. We worried more about growing the organization, adding more rules to it. We worried about politics. We failed to understand what the organization was for to begin with.

My oppinion

[mizpeh]

I hope and pray that all the conservatives will prayerfully consider what you may be about to do. You don't have to compromise your convictions to remain in fellowship with those who hold to the basic tenets of your faith. A walk of love and tolerance will create a bridge between the things that divide you. I pray God will give you peace, guidance, and blessing in whatever decision you make.

[Brett Prince]

I don't understand it....well first of all I don't understand such an emotional attachment to an organization of men that was meant to unify us to be stronger so we can spread the Apostolic message everywhere. This resolution does not change that at all. If anything it enhances it. The org though became more about control then it did about unifying to spread the gospel.

I think we lost sight of what the organization was supposed to be to begin with. We looked at the org as a means of controlling others. We grew an organization rather than allowing the organization to facilitate spreading the word. As a result we fell way behind other orgs like the AOG. We worried more about growing the organization, adding more rules to it. We worried about politics. We failed to understand what the organization was for to begin with.

My oppinion

Prax, respectfully, I think you miss the point.

Men have placed great sweat, tears, blood, energy, money, etc., into camp grounds, Bible colleges, church buildings, all the time believing that they were giving to something they believed in ardently. Now, they feel that all their work has been hijacked, or that their father's and mother's work, or their old pastor's work, has been hijacked, and now all of these assets to the Kingdom is being handed over to those who don't hold to the values that they hold to. It feels like theft. It makes them feel violated. It is NOT the org. It is what they have put INTO the org, and cannot have if they leave. If they want to keep the use of these things, they have to be willing to be part of something that believes differently than they--that has a lifestyle different from their own. They see the path now towards even more things that they don't believe in. It hurts them deeply.

These are good men. These are men who have preached a message that you have received, and likely would have never found had they not. These are men who had little chance for education but wanted better for the next generation of preachers. Some of these know what it is like to sleep in a tent, set on a rough hewn pew, and sweat with air conditioning, but through their labor of love--in their olden age they were going to enjoy something better, and their children, both physically and spiritually would do the same.

But, I am almost certain that these men will walk away, heads held high, a tear in their eye, and with a heavy heart--but they will not attempt to destroy that which they have loved. I believe they will go in peace. And, may the Lord richly bless them. They are MEN.

Sorry to wax so passionate, but this is a day that shall be long remembered. I choose to stay, but my hat is off to those who helped make us what we are, but who will no longer be among us. I am saddened, but I am encouraged by their strength and conviction.

[Kansas Preacher]

I appreciate you, and wish you would stay.

I have not been around as long as you have, but I can understand the sense of vestment you have felt toward the organization, and how hurt you must be at the direction we have taken.

I wish you nothing but the richest favor of God.

PP

Pastor Poster,

Thank you for your very kind words. I just recieved a VERY touching phone call from a long-time friend who said many of the same things. I assure you this is NOT a "knee-jerk" reaction.

For the sake of those who do not read "Thad's Tab," I will give a little more insight into my personal decision by posting here what I posted there. The thread stated that I had promised to "leave as soon as it passed." Furthermore, someone stated they "hoped I DID leave." Here is my response.

-----------------------

For those who "hope" I will leave, you will get your wish.

Thad, I NEVER said, "as soon as it passes." I only stated that I WILL leave. That is my intention. I have been telling that the easiest way to leave is to let your dues lapse. It requires no action on the part of the District Board. It is just automatic. My plan has been to let that process work. My dues are paid through the end of the year. That would mean I won't be dropping out until the first of the year.

I have been reconsidering, however. I have been watching the UPCI drift towards liberalism for many years. (I prayed through in a United Pentecostal Church more than 35 years ago, and have been licensed/ordained for more than 25 of those years.) It has grieved me, but I have been unable to stop it. Yesterday, with the passage of Resolution 4, something in me died. This whole process has been, for me, like watching a loved one with a terminal disease. Even though you know it's coming, you still don't cherish the fact that they finally passed away. The problem for me now is, if I wait until my dues lapse, I won't be able to "bury" this loved one for three more months. In other words, there will be no "closure" for me until I am out of the organization.

I have wept genuine tears. I have been heartbroken. I do not rejoice that I am leaving (although others evidently ARE rejoicing over that fact). Nevertheless, it is something I feel I MUST do.

For those who are interested, I posted the following on another forum. I will "cut and paste" for the benefit of those who "hope" I leave.

Leaving the United Pentecostal Church after being a part (as either a saint in a local assembly, or a licensed minister) for more than 35 years is not an easy thing for me. It is not something I have longed for, desired, hoped for, or wanted. I have watched this drift and grieved.

I was a new convert when the Hanby/Phillips issue was raging. I wrote a letter to Mark Hanby (I was only 14) telling me how it broke my heart (literally) to learn he was advertising on TV. I told him of the double standard that it created. I was DEEPLY hurt by his decision. If the United Pentecostal Church had voted to accept television advertising in the 1970's, I would never have sought license in the first place. Now that it has reversed its stand, I do not feel I can remain a member.
I will not leave with a bad spirit. I will not leave with a rotten attitude. I will not go out "bashing" the UPC. I want to retain the fond memories I have. The UPC has been GOOD to me in MANY ways. I have served in positions from the sectional level to the national level (as a member of the General Board). I want to remember it for the good it has done. I will not criticize those who remain in. (In fact, I have counseled young men NOT to jump because others are.)

I see it like this: If I leave now, I can do so with a right spirit and attitude. If I wait, I may grow bitter. That's a chance I am not willing to take.

[triumphant1]

Pastor Poster,

Thank you for your very kind words. I just recieved a VERY touching phone call from a long-time friend who said many of the same things. I assure you this is NOT a "knee-jerk" reaction.

For the sake of those who do not read "Thad's Tab," I will give a little more insight into my personal decision by posting here what I posted there. The thread stated that I had promised to "leave as soon as it passed." Furthermore, someone stated they "hoped I DID leave." Here is my response.

-----------------------

For those who "hope" I will leave, you will get your wish.

Thad, I NEVER said, "as soon as it passes." I only stated that I WILL leave. That is my intention. I have been telling that the easiest way to leave is to let your dues lapse. It requires no action on the part of the District Board. It is just automatic. My plan has been to let that process work. My dues are paid through the end of the year. That would mean I won't be dropping out until the first of the year.

I have been reconsidering, however. I have been watching the UPCI drift towards liberalism for many years. (I prayed through in a United Pentecostal Church more than 35 years ago, and have been licensed/ordained for more than 25 of those years.) It has grieved me, but I have been unable to stop it. Yesterday, with the passage of Resolution 4, something in me died. This whole process has been, for me, like watching a loved one with a terminal disease. Even though you know it's coming, you still don't cherish the fact that they finally passed away. The problem for me now is, if I wait until my dues lapse, I won't be able to "bury" this loved one for three more months. In other words, there will be no "closure" for me until I am out of the organization.

I have wept genuine tears. I have been heartbroken. I do not rejoice that I am leaving (although others evidently ARE rejoicing over that fact). Nevertheless, it is something I feel I MUST do.

For those who are interested, I posted the following on another forum. I will "cut and paste" for the benefit of those who "hope" I leave.


I will not leave with a bad spirit. I will not leave with a rotten attitude. I will not go out "bashing" the UPC. I want to retain the fond memories I have. The UPC has been GOOD to me in MANY ways. I have served in positions from the sectional level to the national level (as a member of the General Board). I want to remember it for the good it has done. I will not criticize those who remain in. (In fact, I have counseled young men NOT to jump because others are.)

I see it like this: If I leave now, I can do so with a right spirit and attitude. If I wait, I may grow bitter. That's a chance I am not willing to take.

I really don't think this allowance will make any difference in the UPC as you have known it...and I think you guys should hide and watch and give it time to prove that before you surrender that card...

[SDG]

Will Wholehearted take the same approach?

[HeavenlyOne]

Will Wholehearted take the same approach?

I didn't think he was UPC. He thinks the UPC is liberal all over.

[Nahum]

He most certainly is UPC and has said he will leave.

So regrettable.

["GL"]

I'm sorry to hear you are leaving. I'm sure your reasons are honorable.

God bless you, my brother.

[Barb]

Pastor Poster,

Thank you for your very kind words. I just recieved a VERY touching phone call from a long-time friend who said many of the same things. I assure you this is NOT a "knee-jerk" reaction.

For the sake of those who do not read "Thad's Tab," I will give a little more insight into my personal decision by posting here what I posted there. The thread stated that I had promised to "leave as soon as it passed." Furthermore, someone stated they "hoped I DID leave." Here is my response.

-----------------------

For those who "hope" I will leave, you will get your wish.

Thad, I NEVER said, "as soon as it passes." I only stated that I WILL leave. That is my intention. I have been telling that the easiest way to leave is to let your dues lapse. It requires no action on the part of the District Board. It is just automatic. My plan has been to let that process work. My dues are paid through the end of the year. That would mean I won't be dropping out until the first of the year.

I have been reconsidering, however. I have been watching the UPCI drift towards liberalism for many years. (I prayed through in a United Pentecostal Church more than 35 years ago, and have been licensed/ordained for more than 25 of those years.) It has grieved me, but I have been unable to stop it. Yesterday, with the passage of Resolution 4, something in me died. This whole process has been, for me, like watching a loved one with a terminal disease. Even though you know it's coming, you still don't cherish the fact that they finally passed away. The problem for me now is, if I wait until my dues lapse, I won't be able to "bury" this loved one for three more months. In other words, there will be no "closure" for me until I am out of the organization.

I have wept genuine tears. I have been heartbroken. I do not rejoice that I am leaving (although others evidently ARE rejoicing over that fact). Nevertheless, it is something I feel I MUST do.

For those who are interested, I posted the following on another forum. I will "cut and paste" for the benefit of those who "hope" I leave.


I will not leave with a bad spirit. I will not leave with a rotten attitude. I will not go out "bashing" the UPC. I want to retain the fond memories I have. The UPC has been GOOD to me in MANY ways. I have served in positions from the sectional level to the national level (as a member of the General Board). I want to remember it for the good it has done. I will not criticize those who remain in. (In fact, I have counseled young men NOT to jump because others are.)

I see it like this: If I leave now, I can do so with a right spirit and attitude. If I wait, I may grow bitter. That's a chance I am not willing to take.

Well, I repeat what I posted earlier here...I admire integrity.

For what it is worth, I wish you would not go, but it is an individual thing. God bless you, KP...

[Hegavmelif]

Prax, respectfully, I think you miss the point.

Men have placed great sweat, tears, blood, energy, money, etc., into camp grounds, Bible colleges, church buildings, all the time believing that they were giving to something they believed in ardently. Now, they feel that all their work has been hijacked, or that their father's and mother's work, or their old pastor's work, has been hijacked, and now all of these assets to the Kingdom is being handed over to those who don't hold to the values that they hold to. It feels like theft. It makes them feel violated. It is NOT the org. It is what they have put INTO the org, and cannot have if they leave. If they want to keep the use of these things, they have to be willing to be part of something that believes differently than they--that has a lifestyle different from their own. They see the path now towards even more things that they don't believe in. It hurts them deeply.

These are good men. These are men who have preached a message that you have received, and likely would have never found had they not. These are men who had little chance for education but wanted better for the next generation of preachers. Some of these know what it is like to sleep in a tent, set on a rough hewn pew, and sweat with air conditioning, but through their labor of love--in their olden age they were going to enjoy something better, and their children, both physically and spiritually would do the same.

But, I am almost certain that these men will walk away, heads held high, a tear in their eye, and with a heavy heart--but they will not attempt to destroy that which they have loved. I believe they will go in peace. And, may the Lord richly bless them. They are MEN.

Sorry to wax so passionate, but this is a day that shall be long remembered. I choose to stay, but my hat is off to those who helped make us what we are, but who will no longer be among us. I am saddened, but I am encouraged by their strength and conviction.

When you say 'men' it is understood that you are referring to 'preachers'. For the last 25 years I have given an annual average of 25 percent of my net income. That would amount to about a million and a half dollars. This organization and the ministry has benefited directly from the money I gave to God. The 'men' you refer to are not the only ones who have invested blood, sweat and tears to this movement. The dollars are only a part of what my family has invested in this movement - we have taught Sunday School, held fund raisers, created and chaired building campaigns, led and worked with youth and all of which was donated time above and beyond what we gave to our employers, families, home, and communities. The term 'men' should represent the men and women of the pew as well!

[Nahum]

Brother Riggen,

Where did all of the Kansas men who left us a few years ago go? Did they all go independent, or did they join another org? Will you fellowship with them?

[Rico]

Pastor Poster,

Thank you for your very kind words. I just recieved a VERY touching phone call from a long-time friend who said many of the same things. I assure you this is NOT a "knee-jerk" reaction.

For the sake of those who do not read "Thad's Tab," I will give a little more insight into my personal decision by posting here what I posted there. The thread stated that I had promised to "leave as soon as it passed." Furthermore, someone stated they "hoped I DID leave." Here is my response.

-----------------------

For those who "hope" I will leave, you will get your wish.

Thad, I NEVER said, "as soon as it passes." I only stated that I WILL leave. That is my intention. I have been telling that the easiest way to leave is to let your dues lapse. It requires no action on the part of the District Board. It is just automatic. My plan has been to let that process work. My dues are paid through the end of the year. That would mean I won't be dropping out until the first of the year.

I have been reconsidering, however. I have been watching the UPCI drift towards liberalism for many years. (I prayed through in a United Pentecostal Church more than 35 years ago, and have been licensed/ordained for more than 25 of those years.) It has grieved me, but I have been unable to stop it. Yesterday, with the passage of Resolution 4, something in me died. This whole process has been, for me, like watching a loved one with a terminal disease. Even though you know it's coming, you still don't cherish the fact that they finally passed away. The problem for me now is, if I wait until my dues lapse, I won't be able to "bury" this loved one for three more months. In other words, there will be no "closure" for me until I am out of the organization.

I have wept genuine tears. I have been heartbroken. I do not rejoice that I am leaving (although others evidently ARE rejoicing over that fact). Nevertheless, it is something I feel I MUST do.

For those who are interested, I posted the following on another forum. I will "cut and paste" for the benefit of those who "hope" I leave.


I will not leave with a bad spirit. I will not leave with a rotten attitude. I will not go out "bashing" the UPC. I want to retain the fond memories I have. The UPC has been GOOD to me in MANY ways. I have served in positions from the sectional level to the national level (as a member of the General Board). I want to remember it for the good it has done. I will not criticize those who remain in. (In fact, I have counseled young men NOT to jump because others are.)

I see it like this: If I leave now, I can do so with a right spirit and attitude. If I wait, I may grow bitter. That's a chance I am not willing to take.

Brother, you don't know me and I don't know you, but I will tell you this much: nothing is stopping you from staying. You have the right to change your mind, even though you said you would leave. The UPCI is more than this issue with tv. It's just that this tv issue has been dominating things for a few years. It's been decided that those who choose to can adverstise their church on television. You don't have to agree with that decision, but you don't have to let it run you out of the organization either.

[HeavenlyOne]

He most certainly is UPC and has said he will leave.

So regrettable.

Strange he wouldn't have left sooner, as if the TV thing made any difference to him.

He has spoken several times about how he doesn't even allow his kids to hang with UPC people, even attend their camps or anything.

Strange.........

[BrotherEastman]

Pastor Poster,

Thank you for your very kind words. I just recieved a VERY touching phone call from a long-time friend who said many of the same things. I assure you this is NOT a "knee-jerk" reaction.

For the sake of those who do not read "Thad's Tab," I will give a little more insight into my personal decision by posting here what I posted there. The thread stated that I had promised to "leave as soon as it passed." Furthermore, someone stated they "hoped I DID leave." Here is my response.

-----------------------

For those who "hope" I will leave, you will get your wish.

Thad, I NEVER said, "as soon as it passes." I only stated that I WILL leave. That is my intention. I have been telling that the easiest way to leave is to let your dues lapse. It requires no action on the part of the District Board. It is just automatic. My plan has been to let that process work. My dues are paid through the end of the year. That would mean I won't be dropping out until the first of the year.

I have been reconsidering, however. I have been watching the UPCI drift towards liberalism for many years. (I prayed through in a United Pentecostal Church more than 35 years ago, and have been licensed/ordained for more than 25 of those years.) It has grieved me, but I have been unable to stop it. Yesterday, with the passage of Resolution 4, something in me died. This whole process has been, for me, like watching a loved one with a terminal disease. Even though you know it's coming, you still don't cherish the fact that they finally passed away. The problem for me now is, if I wait until my dues lapse, I won't be able to "bury" this loved one for three more months. In other words, there will be no "closure" for me until I am out of the organization.

I have wept genuine tears. I have been heartbroken. I do not rejoice that I am leaving (although others evidently ARE rejoicing over that fact). Nevertheless, it is something I feel I MUST do.

For those who are interested, I posted the following on another forum. I will "cut and paste" for the benefit of those who "hope" I leave.


I will not leave with a bad spirit. I will not leave with a rotten attitude. I will not go out "bashing" the UPC. I want to retain the fond memories I have. The UPC has been GOOD to me in MANY ways. I have served in positions from the sectional level to the national level (as a member of the General Board). I want to remember it for the good it has done. I will not criticize those who remain in. (In fact, I have counseled young men NOT to jump because others are.)

I see it like this: If I leave now, I can do so with a right spirit and attitude. If I wait, I may grow bitter. That's a chance I am not willing to take.
I appreciate you Rev. Kansas. I understand you wanting to do what your heart tells you. Godspeed Rev. Kansas!

[Kansas Preacher]

Brother Riggen,

Where did all of the Kansas men who left us a few years ago go? Did they all go independent, or did they join another org? Will you fellowship with them?

Pastor Poster,

Those men remain independent. Unfortunately, many of them "disfellowshipped me" when I refused to leave the UPC at the same time as they did. There are a number of independent men with whom I currently fellowship. Furthermore, there are some others in this area who did not leave with the "first group" who will be leaving now. We have had -- and will continue to have -- good fellowship with each other.

[Kansas Preacher]

Brother, you don't know me and I don't know you, but I will tell you this much: nothing is stopping you from staying. You have the right to change your mind, even though you said you would leave. The UPCI is more than this issue with tv. It's just that this tv issue has been dominating things for a few years. It's been decided that those who choose to can adverstise their church on television. You don't have to agree with that decision, but you don't have to let it run you out of the organization either.

It is not JUST the "TV thing." As I stated elsewhere, this was just the "last straw" for me. It was a BIG issue to me BEFORE I became licensed. It remains a BIG issue. However, it is not the ONLY issue. I know that no one is forcing me out in a literal sense. As I've said before, so say I now again, this is NOT a "knee-jerk reaction." I've had an entire year to decide how I would deal with it. This is the decision I have reached, and I believe it to be best for me and the church I pastor.

[Rico]

It is not JUST the "TV thing." As I stated elsewhere, this was just the "last straw" for me. It was a BIG issue to me BEFORE I became licensed. It remains a BIG issue. However, it is not the ONLY issue. I know that no one is forcing me out in a literal sense. As I've said before, so say I now again, this is NOT a "knee-jerk reaction." I've had an entire year to decide how I would deal with it. This is the decision I have reached, and I believe it to be best for me and the church I pastor.

Well, do what you gotta do, Brother. My gut feeling is that another organization is going to be the result of people leaving the UPC. We shall see how this all plays out.

[Kansas Preacher]

Well, do what you gotta do, Brother. My gut feeling is that another organization is going to be the result of people leaving the UPC. We shall see how this all plays out.

I'm not interested in another organization. In fact, I have no plans to EVER join one. I will remain independent. I truly believe that is what God wants for me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'm not interested in another organization. In fact, I have no plans to EVER join one. I will remain independent. I truly believe that is what God wants for me.

Independent Apostolic Pentecostal is the largest.

:welcome2

[CC1]

Perhaps when the dust settles this will be best for everyone involved as you can't have an organization being pulled in two different directions.

Those who freak out at image magnification on video screens at conferences and the thought of utilizing technology in outreach have been unhappy for a very long time (as Kansas Preacher says he has been and I am sure many more).

The Kansas contingent of UPC has been so conservative he will be the second DS in modern times to go from heading up the UPC in his district / state to ditching it.

If the UPC is smart they will recruit some moderates to go into Kansas and start Home Missions churches in the major urban areas and larger towns to build a UPC presence there that will be moderate enough to not be ditching the Mothership every few years because they think it is too lib.

I find it ironic and rather funny that Kansas Preacher has stated that the previous bunch that left don't have much to do with him because he didn't leave when they did. The ultra cons don't even get along with each other!

[triumphant1]

Perhaps when the dust settles this will be best for everyone involved as you can't have an organization being pulled in two different directions.

Those who freak out at image magnification on video screens at conferences and the thought of utilizing technology in outreach have been unhappy for a very long time (as Kansas Preacher says he has been and I am sure many more).

The Kansas contingent of UPC has been so conservative he will be the second DS in modern times to go from heading up the UPC in his district / state to ditching it.

If the UPC is smart they will recruit some moderates to go into Kansas and start Home Missions churches in the major urban areas and larger towns to build a UPC presence there that will be moderate enough to not be ditching the Mothership every few years because they think it is too lib.

I find it ironic and rather funny that Kansas Preacher has stated that the previous bunch that left don't have much to do with him because he didn't leave when they did. The ultra cons don't even get along with each other!

Interesting comments for sure....

[triumphant1]

I'm not interested in another organization. In fact, I have no plans to EVER join one. I will remain independent. I truly believe that is what God wants for me.

Me too...

[lovemyjesus]

Pastor Poster,

Thank you for your very kind words. I just recieved a VERY touching phone call from a long-time friend who said many of the same things. I assure you this is NOT a "knee-jerk" reaction.

For the sake of those who do not read "Thad's Tab," I will give a little more insight into my personal decision by posting here what I posted there. The thread stated that I had promised to "leave as soon as it passed." Furthermore, someone stated they "hoped I DID leave." Here is my response.

-----------------------

For those who "hope" I will leave, you will get your wish.

Thad, I NEVER said, "as soon as it passes." I only stated that I WILL leave. That is my intention. I have been telling that the easiest way to leave is to let your dues lapse. It requires no action on the part of the District Board. It is just automatic. My plan has been to let that process work. My dues are paid through the end of the year. That would mean I won't be dropping out until the first of the year.

I have been reconsidering, however. I have been watching the UPCI drift towards liberalism for many years. (I prayed through in a United Pentecostal Church more than 35 years ago, and have been licensed/ordained for more than 25 of those years.) It has grieved me, but I have been unable to stop it. Yesterday, with the passage of Resolution 4, something in me died. This whole process has been, for me, like watching a loved one with a terminal disease. Even though you know it's coming, you still don't cherish the fact that they finally passed away. The problem for me now is, if I wait until my dues lapse, I won't be able to "bury" this loved one for three more months. In other words, there will be no "closure" for me until I am out of the organization.

I have wept genuine tears. I have been heartbroken. I do not rejoice that I am leaving (although others evidently ARE rejoicing over that fact). Nevertheless, it is something I feel I MUST do.

For those who are interested, I posted the following on another forum. I will "cut and paste" for the benefit of those who "hope" I leave.


I will not leave with a bad spirit. I will not leave with a rotten attitude. I will not go out "bashing" the UPC. I want to retain the fond memories I have. The UPC has been GOOD to me in MANY ways. I have served in positions from the sectional level to the national level (as a member of the General Board). I want to remember it for the good it has done. I will not criticize those who remain in. (In fact, I have counseled young men NOT to jump because others are.)

I see it like this: If I leave now, I can do so with a right spirit and attitude. If I wait, I may grow bitter. That's a chance I am not willing to take.
I like that attitude and let me tell you that it's definitely the right attitude for all of us to have. Some will stay (no intention of leaving) and grow bitter though all of this and others will wait (not really wanting to stay) and grow bitter because of it.

I'm sorry that all of this ever happened. I'm truly sickened by ALL that TV has to offer. I can't imagine how a holy people of GOD could claim to think that we're actually doing good by this TV resolution, when all we're doing is blending with the world.

I've got too much to say about TV so I better "git while the gittin's good."

[HeavenlyOne]

I like that attitude and let me tell you that it's definitely the right attitude for all of us to have. Some will stay (no intention of leaving) and grow bitter though all of this and others will wait (not really wanting to stay) and grow bitter because of it.

I'm sorry that all of this ever happened. I'm truly sickened by ALL that TV has to offer. I can't imagine how a holy people of GOD could claim to think that we're actually doing good by this TV resolution, when all we're doing is blending with the world.

I've got too much to say about TV so I better "git while the gittin's good."

You say this on the internet, well known for breaking up homes, even those of Apostolics.

Oh, the irony!

[CC1]

I like that attitude and let me tell you that it's definitely the right attitude for all of us to have. Some will stay (no intention of leaving) and grow bitter though all of this and others will wait (not really wanting to stay) and grow bitter because of it.

I'm sorry that all of this ever happened. I'm truly sickened by ALL that TV has to offer. I can't imagine how a holy people of GOD could claim to think that we're actually doing good by this TV resolution, when all we're doing is blending with the world.

I've got too much to say about TV so I better "git while the gittin's good."

Well, if Res 4 causes Wholehearted to finally leave the org. he has been a part of but seems to despise then it will be worth it all.:hypercoffee

[Steve Epley]

Kansas Preacher you did NOT leave them they left you.

[Kansas Preacher]

Kansas Preacher you did NOT leave them they left you.

You are SO right, Elder. You are SO right.

[CC1]

You are SO right, Elder. You are SO right.

Now that was the response I thought you would post to my post!

[Thad]

unlike the libs and mods here ,I am one who does not believe that TV ministry is the end all the great revival. i still believe it comes from old fashioned fasting, hunbling, shutting in, etc. something we are ALL lacking including myself. BUT, I'm also for freedom in the local assembly. If a pastor wants to try that out, let 'em!!! how is that going to effect my life??? why do i need to have a cardiac arrest over it?? only 5% will even be able to afford to advertise~!! that means 95% wont be . some folk act like everyone is suddenly going to out and start looking like jezebel !

[CC1]

unlike the libs and mods here ,I am one who does not believe that TV ministry is the end all the great revival. i still believe it comes from old fashioned fasting, hunbling, shutting in, etc. something we are ALL lacking including myself. BUT, I'm also for freedom in the local assembly. If a pastor wants to try that out, let 'em!!! how is that going to effect my life??? why do i need to have a cardiac arrest over it?? only 5% will even be able to afford to advertise~!! that means 95% wont be . some folk act like everyone is suddenly going to out and start looking like jezebel !


You are outright misrepresenting mods and libs views of using TV and you know it.

I challenge you to find one single post that has said TV is the answer to evangelism and reaching the lost.

All of the supporters of using television that I have seen post on AFF have said it is just a tool. A good tool in some situations but nevetheless just a tool. One of many to be used in carrying out the Great Commission.

Why do you feel you have to mis state peoples views?

[triumphant1]

unlike the libs and mods here ,I am one who does not believe that TV ministry is the end all the great revival. i still believe it comes from old fashioned fasting, hunbling, shutting in, etc. something we are ALL lacking including myself. BUT, I'm also for freedom in the local assembly. If a pastor wants to try that out, let 'em!!! how is that going to effect my life??? why do i need to have a cardiac arrest over it?? only 5% will even be able to afford to advertise~!! that means 95% wont be . some folk act like everyone is suddenly going to out and start looking like jezebel !

Oh shut up...I don't know of a lib or a mod on this forum that believes TV is the end all to great revival...it is a tool...but no one thinks it replaces prayer and fasting and one on one evangelism...

Thad, this is a deceptive mantra and a false perception...Do you really think that AM is going to go back home and tell his church, "Folks, we can stop the 40 year old prayer chain now. And we can stop having ouotr annual 30 day fast. And we can convert the prayer rooms into coffee shops. We can stop all bible studies Bro. Larry. Because we now can run TV commercials we don;t have to do anything else...

Ignorant....

[CC1]

Oh shut up...I don't know of a lib or a mod on this forum that believes TV is the end all to great revival...it is a tool...but no one thinks it replaces prayer and fasting and one on one evangelism...

Thad, this is a deceptive mantra and a false perception...Do you really think that AM is going to go back home and tell his church, "Folks, we can stop the 40 year old prayer chain now. And we can stop having ouotr annual 30 day fast. And we can convert the prayer rooms into coffee shops. We can stop all bible studies Bro. Larry. Because we now can run TV commercials we don;t have to do anything else...

Ignorant....

Misrepresnting is Thad's style. Just SOP for him. I don't why he can't just state his reasons for opposing res 4 without grossly misrepresenting the people on the other side of the issue.

[triumphant1]

Misrepresnting is Thad's style. Just SOP for him. I don't why he can't just state his reasons for opposing res 4 without grossly misrepresenting the people on the other side of the issue.

Might be because he doesn't really know what he believes or why he believes it...:sshhh

[mjmac]

Are there stats on the effectiveness of TV advertising? I know of one church in my city that has ads on the TV. Not sure it does anything more than a little publicity.

It's still one on one that works. You have to make friends. Touch real people.

I don't see why anyone would leave the UPCI over this. I could think of many other things, but not this.

[chseeads]

Will Wholehearted take the same approach?

He probably took his card out and burned it at the stake.... :eek:

[Praxeas]

Prax, respectfully, I think you miss the point.

Men have placed great sweat, tears, blood, energy, money, etc., into camp grounds, Bible colleges, church buildings, all the time believing that they were giving to something they believed in ardently. Now, they feel that all their work has been hijacked, or that their father's and mother's work, or their old pastor's work, has been hijacked, and now all of these assets to the Kingdom is being handed over to those who don't hold to the values that they hold to. It feels like theft. It makes them feel violated. It is NOT the org. It is what they have put INTO the org, and cannot have if they leave. If they want to keep the use of these things, they have to be willing to be part of something that believes differently than they--that has a lifestyle different from their own. They see the path now towards even more things that they don't believe in. It hurts them deeply.

These are good men. These are men who have preached a message that you have received, and likely would have never found had they not. These are men who had little chance for education but wanted better for the next generation of preachers. Some of these know what it is like to sleep in a tent, set on a rough hewn pew, and sweat with air conditioning, but through their labor of love--in their olden age they were going to enjoy something better, and their children, both physically and spiritually would do the same.

But, I am almost certain that these men will walk away, heads held high, a tear in their eye, and with a heavy heart--but they will not attempt to destroy that which they have loved. I believe they will go in peace. And, may the Lord richly bless them. They are MEN.

Sorry to wax so passionate, but this is a day that shall be long remembered. I choose to stay, but my hat is off to those who helped make us what we are, but who will no longer be among us. I am saddened, but I am encouraged by their strength and conviction.
I understood that. I think it's absurd. They aren't the only ones that put time and effort into an organization. It seems childish to me that if one group does not get it's way it's gonna be insulted and walk....the liberals could and have done the same thing. This resolution does NOT force them to accept the TV.

That is what is wrong with the UPC. It has become what was supposed to be a United effort to spread the Apostolic message around the world to a concerted effort to control the thoughts of all UPCers.

We should get rid of the Affirmation statement to begin with. We should return to our roots when we were still in the AOG and were full on against creeds with unbiblical language or terms and make only the bible our standard. We never should have attempted to leash or control our churches from using all possible means of evangelism and growth.

This org should have been bigger, but instead of being unleashed to focus on evangelism it has been mired in rules and legalism and political fighting for control

[chseeads]

You say this on the internet, well known for breaking up homes, even those of Apostolics.

Oh, the irony!

Tell me about it.... :roseglasses

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

unlike the libs and mods here ,I am one who does not believe that TV ministry is the end all the great revival. i still believe it comes from old fashioned fasting, hunbling, shutting in, etc. something we are ALL lacking including myself. BUT, I'm also for freedom in the local assembly. If a pastor wants to try that out, let 'em!!! how is that going to effect my life??? why do i need to have a cardiac arrest over it?? only 5% will even be able to afford to advertise~!! that means 95% wont be . some folk act like everyone is suddenly going to out and start looking like jezebel !


With the many reports of abuse of the letter of the TV issue being told here, this is the final straw. The TV appearances and the distribution of modern TV programs for discussion after viewing. The use of "Andy Griffith" for mid week Bible Study. The rampant embracing of Trinitarianism by those on the fringes still teaching in many of our churches now advocating that "advertising is needed"

At some point, the leftward lean is too severe for some to ignore.

I do agree with Thad here that many churches embrace every program instead of embracing prayer. How many churches 3-5 yrs ago dissolved midweek services and now they disband all over our fellowship HFG as another fad. (one that was called "Oikos" 25 yrs ago and did not go far then either). So we have now this "program for Evangelism...."

At least KP has the integrity to state his line is drawn. And to keep from a bad attitude is indeed noble and something we all need.

:2cents

[Praxeas]

Kansas Preacher you did NOT leave them they left you.
Oh brother....typical. Honestly I would not want anyone go to, but with attitudes like that, the victim card playing and finger pointing, it might be better if some did go. The ONLY reason we can't get along and be in Unity is because the individual ministers and their congregations by and large just don't want to. This org was born of two different groups with differnent views on salvation. Somewhere along the way some group tried to hijack it and make it a my way or the hiway movement. But now that it seems that is no longer going to be accepted by and large they decide to take their toys and go?

Good grief. "Not contending for our differences to the disunity of the body" became "conform to our way....no other views welcome"

[bishoph]

Are there stats on the effectiveness of TV advertising? I know of one church in my city that has ads on the TV. Not sure it does anything more than a little publicity.

It's still one on one that works. You have to make friends. Touch real people.

I don't see why anyone would leave the UPCI over this. I could think of many other things, but not this.

I believe I read a George Barna report that less than 1% of people have come to church/Christ from TV of any kind.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I believe I read a George Barna report that less than 1% of people have come to church/Christ from TV of any kind.

I wonder what the name recognition of the United Pentecostal Church is?

I am gonna venture less than 10%.

[bishoph]

So many have stated their opinion about what the passing of this resolution means or does not mean to the future of the UPCI. However, as one who actually lived out a similar situation in an Apostolic organization that has 50+ years of foundation I can tell you that some of the predictions pale in comparison to what will really happen.

I personally sat on the National board of this organization and resisted the tide of compromise until, like the UPCI's reversal of its own principle, the org made a decision to change small things that resulted in monumental change. (Remember John warns us that it is a very small rudder that turns the ship.)

Today just 5 years later the organization which was nearly as conservative as the UPCI (harder in some areas) bears no resemblance of a sanctified body. Tragically the worst part is that a growing number of those who remain no longer believe nor teach the Biblical plan of salvation.

This is not what I have dreamed up, this is what I have watched happen in 5 short years. I think what we are forgetting is that when something has made its way into the foundation of any structure, to remove it places the structure as a whole in jeopardy. JMHO

[Old Paths]

So many have stated their opinion about what the passing of this resolution means or does not mean to the future of the UPCI. However, as one who actually lived out a similar situation in an Apostolic organization that has 50+ years of foundation I can tell you that some of the predictions pale in comparison to what will really happen.

I personally sat on the National board of this organization and resisted the tide of compromise until, like the UPCI's reversal of its own principle, the org made a decision to change small things that resulted in monumental change. (Remember John warns us that it is a very small rudder that turns the ship.)

Today just 5 years later the organization which was nearly as conservative as the UPCI (harder in some areas) bears no resemblance of a sanctified body. Tragically the worst part is that a growing number of those who remain no longer believe nor teach the Biblical plan of salvation.

This is not what I have dreamed up, this is what I have watched happen in 5 short years. I think what we are forgetting is that when something has made its way into the foundation of any structure, to remove it places the structure as a whole in jeopardy. JMHO



So sad,


but true.

[CC1]

Kansas Preacher,

Regardless of where you land (GIB or in the new conservative org. that will spring up with the help of the Western District ultra cons) I still plan on looking you up to say hello if I ever make it back to Kansas.

Coonskinner speaks very highly of you.

[CC1]

So many have stated their opinion about what the passing of this resolution means or does not mean to the future of the UPCI. However, as one who actually lived out a similar situation in an Apostolic organization that has 50+ years of foundation I can tell you that some of the predictions pale in comparison to what will really happen.

I personally sat on the National board of this organization and resisted the tide of compromise until, like the UPCI's reversal of its own principle, the org made a decision to change small things that resulted in monumental change. (Remember John warns us that it is a very small rudder that turns the ship.)

Today just 5 years later the organization which was nearly as conservative as the UPCI (harder in some areas) bears no resemblance of a sanctified body. Tragically the worst part is that a growing number of those who remain no longer believe nor teach the Biblical plan of salvation.

This is not what I have dreamed up, this is what I have watched happen in 5 short years. I think what we are forgetting is that when something has made its way into the foundation of any structure, to remove it places the structure as a whole in jeopardy. JMHO


If it is change you fear then run to the AMF!!!! Of course even the AMF has it's liberals like Steve Epley who listen to Fox News on satellite radio!!!!!!

[bishoph]

Change is nothing to fear, rather welcomed and embraced, as long as it is proper change. It is one thing to accommodate change that enhances and propels us in the right direction, it is quite another to embellish change that diverts us from our course and or reverses our direction.

[mizpeh]

So many have stated their opinion about what the passing of this resolution means or does not mean to the future of the UPCI. However, as one who actually lived out a similar situation in an Apostolic organization that has 50+ years of foundation I can tell you that some of the predictions pale in comparison to what will really happen.

I personally sat on the National board of this organization and resisted the tide of compromise until, like the UPCI's reversal of its own principle, the org made a decision to change small things that resulted in monumental change. (Remember John warns us that it is a very small rudder that turns the ship.)

Today just 5 years later the organization which was nearly as conservative as the UPCI (harder in some areas) bears no resemblance of a sanctified body. Tragically the worst part is that a growing number of those who remain no longer believe nor teach the Biblical plan of salvation.

This is not what I have dreamed up, this is what I have watched happen in 5 short years. I think what we are forgetting is that when something has made its way into the foundation of any structure, to remove it places the structure as a whole in jeopardy. JMHO
What is the foundation of our faith in God? What makes us part of the body of Christ? We've been baptized in his name and and filled with his Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13, Acts 2:38. How does advertising on TV or even watching a g-rated show on TV affect our position in the body of Christ? The church I attend has been out of the UPC since 1992 and the basic tenets of the faith have not been compromised.

If part of the foundation of a structure based on Godly principles had human based principles intermixed as well, will not taking out some of the human based principles cause the structure to be more sound?

[bishoph]

If part of the foundation of a structure based on Godly principles had human based principles intermixed as well, will not taking out some of the human based principles cause the structure to be more sound?

The bolded quote is where I think some of the problem lies. Many have looked at the TV prohibition as a human based principle when in fact it was put in place as an answer to protect the saints from erosion of Godly principles which were coming under attack through this medium. The church has always had the right to establish morality/moderation based upon current sinfulness of society as a whole.

The men who put the TV prohibition in place did so with prayer and a realization of its impact on the average person who would be impacted by its (TV) influence. It was not based on man made principle but rather to protect a Godly principle. Maybe it could be said mans rule placed to maintain Godly principle.

[chseeads]

The bolded quote is where I think some of the problem lies. Many have looked at the TV prohibition as a human based principle when in fact it was put in place as an answer to protect the saints from erosion of Godly principles which were coming under attack through this medium. The church has always had the right to establish morality/moderation based upon current sinfulness of society as a whole.

The men who put the TV prohibition in place did so with prayer and a realization of its impact on the average person who would be impacted by its (TV) influence. It was not based on man made principle but rather to protect a Godly principle. Maybe it could be said mans rule to maintain Godly principle.

How come nobody in the UPC prayed about the impact of the Internet the same way they did TV then? :sshhh

[BobDylan]

I hope and pray that all the conservatives will prayerfully consider what you may be about to do. You don't have to compromise your convictions to remain in fellowship with those who hold to the basic tenets of your faith. A walk of love and tolerance will create a bridge between the things that divide you. I pray God will give you peace, guidance, and blessing in whatever decision you make.

One major problem is that just about every little thing divides conservatives... i.e. Christmas trees, fall parties, use of video and internet.... slits in the skirts, chopsticks in the hair, short-sleeves/long-sleeves.... hairbows, brown or colored stockings, colored or white shirts on the platform, the list goes on and on...

[pelathais]

I can understand, also, how difficult this must be on those who have invested their tears, sweat, finances, time and lives into the organization. I'm sure they will prayerfully make the proper decisions and do what their conscience dictates.
It is a difficult thing. You work your whole adult life investing in something and then it seems that you have to loose all of your labor. A lot of men went through this in 1992. I personally went through it several years later.

My only consolation was the knowledge that in the end, the Truth would triumph. We really have to take a view of things that is so large that our own lives and labors are puny and insignificant. Otherwise we run the risk of setting ourselves up for a continual parade of bitter disappointments.

[pelathais]

One major problem is that just about every little thing divides conservatives... i.e. Christmas trees, fall parties, use of video and internet.... slits in the skirts, chopsticks in the hair, short-sleeves/long-sleeves.... hairbows, brown or colored stockings, colored or white shirts on the platform, the list goes on and on...
And the longer the list, the more likely it will be that you are "offended" again and again. Some people learn to actually feed off the offenses. Others wise up and grow spiritually. Still others are morose or embittered for years.

[Thad]

One major problem is that just about every little thing divides conservatives... i.e. Christmas trees, fall parties, use of video and internet.... slits in the skirts, chopsticks in the hair, short-sleeves/long-sleeves.... hairbows, brown or colored stockings, colored or white shirts on the platform, the list goes on and on...



Now i already know that Benny or someone will come along and say I'm making this up but I promise on a stack of Bibles it is THE TRUTH! I am Calif. bred and can tell you all some Dozzies!
a neighboring church pastor made every Male in his church and school part their hair on the right. he taught that any other style was connected to a homosexual Hollywood spirit. okay, so one of the neighboring pastor's son attended his school and abided by the hair rule for the males BUT when he took his senior portrait, he comb his hair forward with that stylish little spike in the front. someone went and reported it to the pastor and he kicked him out the school just a few months before graduation. a huge fight then erupted between the 2 pastors and it got ugly !

we have another pastor that makes his son wear cowboy boots when he plays the piano so that he wont turn into a homo. I have it on tape him saying this. he said " Ill break every finger on his hands if he even looks like one".

[pelathais]

Now i already know that Benny or someone will come along and say I'm making this up but I promise on a stack of Bibles it is THE TRUTH! I am Calif. bred and can tell you all some Dozzies!
a neighboring church pastor made every Male in his church and school part their hair on the right. he taught that any other style was connected to a homosexual Hollywood spirit. okay, so one of the neighboring pastor's sons atteded his school and abided by the hair rule for the males BUT when he took his senior portrait, he comb his hair forward with that stylish little spike in the front. someone went and reported it to the pastor and he kicked him out the school just a few months before graduation. a huge fight then erupted between the 2 pastors and it get ugly !

we have another pastor that makes his son wear cowboy boots when he plays the piano so that he wont turn into a homo. I have it on tape him saying this. he said " Ill break every finger on his hands if he even looks like one".
We are dealing with a lot of ignorance in our movement. Of course when you point out the errors in the "hair part" and the "cowboy pianoman" they and their ilk will immediately respond with some nonsense about how your position is "really pro-homosexual."

Miscreants often end up with a spectrum mindset. They put themselves on a spectrum as far from what they hate as they can. Anyone else who comes along and sees the world as being complex and 3 dimensional- well it's because they're on the "homo" side of the spectrum.

Thing is, if you've studied human behavior from a clinical perspective- these guys and their male dominance hierarchies are really patterned after the more ancient forms of homosexuality. They give me the willies when I'm around them - that same sick to my stomach feeling I get from the "gay pride" advocates.

I so long to be a part of something "normal." Something that I don't have to be ashamed of. Something truly Christian.

[Thad]

We are dealing with a lot of ignorance in our movement. Of course when you point out the errors in the "hair part" and the "cowboy pianoman" they and their ilk will immediately respond with some nonsense about how your position is "really pro-homosexual."

Miscreants often end up with a spectrum mindset. They put themselves on a spectrum as far from what they hate as they can. Anyone else who comes along and sees the world as being complex and 3 dimensional- well it's because they're on the "homo" side of the spectrum.

Thing is, if you've studied human behavior from a clinical perspective- these guys and their male dominance hierarchies are really patterned after the more ancient forms of homosexuality. They give me the willies when I'm around them - that same sick to my stomach feeling I get from the "gay pride" advocates.

I so long to be a part of something "normal." Something that I don't have to be ashamed of. Something truly Christian.

WOW i can't believe you posted that! are you sure you are ready for this??
BTW, I've never heard this before- can you expound in "laymen's terms" ha! i will say this, in my observation, the ones who sometimes preach the hardest against something are strugging themselves. preaching hard against it perhaps gives them a sense of assuarance or something not sure

[BobDylan]

And the longer the list, the more likely it will be that you are "offended" again and again. Some people learn to actually feed off the offenses. Others wise up and grow spiritually. Still others are morose or embittered for years.

There is no offense on my part indicated in my last post. I am not offended at all... moreso, I am disconcerted. Disconcerted in the fact that conservatives, for whatever reason, cannot find the common thread to unite them. Not that they have no common thread, but that they cannot seem to find it. As has been stated time and time again, liberals can disagree on 9 out of 10 issues, but they will rally about the one issue that they agree on. Conservatives, on the other hand, can agree on 9 out of 10 issues, and divide over the one issue they disagree on. This is all I was pointing out P. I have no problem with conservative positions as long as they are consistent. In fact I truly appreciate them. What I cannot appreciate is the intolerance in many cases that is demonstrated from conservatives toward the slight variations of interpretations and applications.

P.S. I am rereading your post here... and think I have not fully understood what you are trying to say. But I think after having reread it a couple of times, I am getting the gist. Are you saying that the UC's introduce the lists of rules in their own subconsciense to ensure that someone will "offend" at some point? Thus giving them fodder for "preaching"? (or something like that)... but other actually learn to grow past that mentality?

[BobDylan]

We are dealing with a lot of ignorance in our movement. Of course when you point out the errors in the "hair part" and the "cowboy pianoman" they and their ilk will immediately respond with some nonsense about how your position is "really pro-homosexual."

Miscreants often end up with a spectrum mindset. They put themselves on a spectrum as far from what they hate as they can. Anyone else who comes along and sees the world as being complex and 3 dimensional- well it's because they're on the "homo" side of the spectrum.

Thing is, if you've studied human behavior from a clinical perspective- these guys and their male dominance hierarchies are really patterned after the more ancient forms of homosexuality. They give me the willies when I'm around them - that same sick to my stomach feeling I get from the "gay pride" advocates.

I so long to be a part of something "normal." Something that I don't have to be ashamed of. Something truly Christian.

IOW, what you are suggesting is that this ultra sensitivity toward "homosexuality" really arises from insecurities in their own heterosexualtiy? :hypercoffee

[Thad]

This is bound to stir up a bee's Nest!

everyone grab some popcorn and pull up a chair :killinme

[Thad]

**** announcement ***

! Just want everyone to know that KS and I worked things out. It went public so i'm making this known -we had a falling out but everything's cool now. KS is a good man

[pelathais]

WOW i can't believe you posted that! are you sure you are ready for this??
BTW, I've never heard this before- can you expound in "laymen's terms" ha! i will say this, in my observation, the ones who sometimes preach the hardest against something are strugging themselves. preaching hard against it perhaps gives them a sense of assuarance or something not sure
Just to take one example- let's consider the ancient Greeks. And folks, this is a grown up discussion. We will be trying to make polite references to things that most people find unseemly and that I candidly find uncomfortable, to say the least.

A little background, first...

In today's society the "Gay" agenda people have been trying to gain acceptance through a "we're just like everybody else..." approach. They insist that "boy-loves-boy" is the same as "boy-loves-girl" and etc. They make an appeal to ancient societies and the practice of homosexuality there. Recently, a movie was released which purportedly showed Alexander the Great having a "better" gay relationship than he had marriage. (I couldn't bring myself to watch that one even for academic purposes- so I must lean upon the written reviews). The Greek govt was understandably upset about this movie's obvious agenda.

The question that is presented to us: is "gay love" just like "regular heterosexual love?" I would answer "no." Important differences- not just the mechanics, but the psychology as well. Another question: Was "gay love" practiced in antiquity and could that be a reason for accepting the homosexual agendas today? Again, I answer "no."

For space we will restrict ourselves to the ancient Greek culture. In ancient Greece homosexuality abounded. But it wasn't "Love." It was all a part of the way in which the warrior society organized itself and later the urban society as well. Only the male who was in the submissive role was even thought of as being "feminine." The dominant male was always considered “a man's man" and his masculinity was never questioned- in fact by assuming the dominant role he elevated his masculinity in the group.

A person of higher class was never submissive to a person of lower class. A person of greater age was never submissive to a younger person. A soldier of higher rank was always dominant with a soldier of lower rank. The place you took was determined by social ranking. The "sex" (often an assault) was just a way of emphasizing your place in that ranking. To refuse to participate in this hierarchy meant you were an outcast. That's the way men sorted themselves out in antiquity - literally, "Who's your daddy?" We see the similar things in prisons today.

The same patterns are also present whenever you have an exclusively male grouping of humans. The presence of the fairer sex really does make us act better. But it seems that unrengerated men will always be looking for a way to get “a leg up on” another. And often supposedly regenerated men will as well.

The "gays" have got it wrong. It's wrong to try and divide human beings into their "gay," "straight," "bi," and "other" catagories. Human beings are sexual creatures, period. We're all the same (taking into account the obvious male/female dichotomy).

Thad, I've already alarmed many on this board with similar discussions, I guess you missed my post describing a board meeting I was forced to attend once. I likened it to a gang assault of a bunch of guys against a weaker guy.

For myself, I can honestly say that I have never had any sexual relations with any other human being than my wife. Today we may have to add woodland creatures, space aliens and farm animals. But my experience is one of total monogamy.

As a teenager I was accused once by a "friend" because I didn't take advantage of a drunken girl. That kind of shook me up. I wasn't living for God at all at the time, but I just couldn't bring myself to do that to a helpless person. In my teenaged mind I even wondered if what held me back was "gay?" I mentally ran the whole thing through my mind and played with my feelings and finally came away convinced that I "liked girls" but I wanted them at least kind of sobered up. As a kid I was confused, as an adult I'm convinced I did the right thing.

*** I wanted to add here- this is a touchy issue. In many ways I am generalizing, that's unavoidable. Like in that earlier discussion- I am not saying that "Pentecostal preachers" are "queer" or anything like that. I am saying that there are some human behaviors that are disturbing and that the way to stop those behaviors is to talk about it openly. ******

But I have always been alarmed by the ways in which people will try and gain a dominant position over another. It really bothers me. I find a lot of evidence from history and from scripture that there are things playing out in the emotions of some of these power mad people that are worse than unseemly- they can be dangerous.

Our society has laws in place that restrict sexual relations between people in dominant/submissive roles. No sex in the military with others in your chain of command. Doctors, psychologists, educators and police officials all have either legal or professional guidelines to follow because this sort of thing is so prevalent- and so harmful.

[pelathais]

There is no offense on my part indicated in my last post. I am not offended at all... moreso, I am disconcerted. Disconcerted in the fact that conservatives, for whatever reason, cannot find the common thread to unite them. Not that they have no common thread, but that they cannot seem to find it. As has been stated time and time again, liberals can disagree on 9 out of 10 issues, but they will rally about the one issue that they agree on. Conservatives, on the other hand, can agree on 9 out of 10 issues, and divide over the one issue they disagree on. This is all I was pointing out P. I have no problem with conservative positions as long as they are consistent. In fact I truly appreciate them. What I cannot appreciate is the intolerance in many cases that is demonstrated from conservatives toward the slight variations of interpretations and applications.

P.S. I am rereading your post here... and think I have not fully understood what you are trying to say. But I think after having reread it a couple of times, I am getting the gist. Are you saying that the UC's introduce the lists of rules in their own subconsciense to ensure that someone will "offend" at some point? Thus giving them fodder for "preaching"? (or something like that)... but other actually learn to grow past that mentality?
I of course, didn't really have you in mind, B.D. I was just throwing a thought out there. And, no to that last question.

What I have seen is that there are people who actually want to feel "offended" when they are around other Apostolics. They seem to get a spiritual high by saying, "Don't stand near me for I am holier than thou...." These are the ones I had in mind. They want to be mad and offended all the time.

Once at a Youth Camp we had a musical group that was sing after the kids all had prayed around a bon fire outside. It was one of those "We're out after curfew but that's okay...." kinds of things. Going through the choruses they got to "Stand by Me." This was about the time that a movie of that name had come out- I never saw the movie but I was aware that a lot of kids liked the song. "Whatever," I thought. At the time I actually thought that the song itself was based upon an old "Negro Spiritual" like "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" and others. A couple of boys from a new preacher's family came to me and immediately protested. "That's not a Christian song!" and all that. Based upon the way that they were raised, their parents actually rewarded them when they showed such antagonism.

I observe people simply get off on behaving like that. By putting other people down they seem to think that they are earning "merits" in the Kingdom of God. Sort of like "points to get out of Purgatory." Run down the camp preacher- you get points. Run down the NAYC and you get points. Slam UPC leaders and you get points. He with the most points wins God's favor.

[Sheltiedad]

I wonder what the name recognition of the United Pentecostal Church is?

I am gonna venture less than 10%.

I agree. I learned at an early age to identify the church I went to by how the people look and not the name of it.


ME: "I'm Apostolic and go to a United Pentecostal Church"

EVERYONE ELSE: blank stare...

ME: "You know, Pentecostal"

EVERYONE ELSE: blank stare...

ME: "You know, then one where women wear long dresses and hair buns and no make-up or jewelry"

EVERYONE ELSE: "Oh! Now I know what you are talking about."That conversation was repeated over and over again growing up and even now when I try to tell people what church I was raised in.

Try going into a Barnes & Noble, or Borders Bookstore and look in all the religious books. I have done it many times. You would be extremely lucky to even find "United Pentecostal" listed anywhere in ANY book in the entire book store. I have tried this several times, with very limited success.

If you look up "Apostolic" or "Pentecostal", it points you to the "Assembly of God" references. So where is the success of the movement, if no one knows who they are? They haven't even made it into most reference books on Christianity (except for the ones that are actually produced by Oneness groups)? But no worries, I'm sure the "Good News" is being spread somehow... (probably in the "Church Directory" of the local paper that most Pentecostal churches do not even bother to list themselves in).

[Sister Alvear]

praying for you folks.

[Sister Alvear]

Sometimes I don´t know just the right words to say. Learned a long time ago prayer helps us all. I feel a deep burden for KP he is very sincere along with many others on both sides.
Which ever way we stand does not mean those that take a different opinion are worng or right and our ministry is not involved either way for we are not UPC but we pray for God to help each one do what is right in the fear of the Lord. Blessings to all this morning and please remember my sister Sherry Childress in your prayers.

[mizpeh]

WOW i can't believe you posted that! are you sure you are ready for this??
BTW, I've never heard this before- can you expound in "laymen's terms" ha! i will say this, in my observation, the ones who sometimes preach the hardest against something are strugging themselves. preaching hard against it perhaps gives them a sense of assuarance or something not sure

LOL, Pelathais posted this opinion before on another thread and received alot of flack for it. He might not want to go that path again so soon. Pelathais, I hope you don't mind me posting this link.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=225547&postcount=42

[mizpeh]

The bolded quote is where I think some of the problem lies. Many have looked at the TV prohibition as a human based principle when in fact it was put in place as an answer to protect the saints from erosion of Godly principles which were coming under attack through this medium. The church has always had the right to establish morality/moderation based upon current sinfulness of society as a whole.

The men who put the TV prohibition in place did so with prayer and a realization of its impact on the average person who would be impacted by its (TV) influence. It was not based on man made principle but rather to protect a Godly principle. Maybe it could be said mans rule placed to maintain Godly principle.

Maybe they drew the line on TV too narrowly and without giving the laity the respect to be able to think for themselves and allow the Holy Spirit to convict. They also didn't consider that EVERYTHING on TV isn't evil and sinful. Many non Christians would agree a lot of the things on TV are morally distasteful and wrong but some aren't. Why ban the whole media?

[Blubayou]

KP - I have not read this entire thread- but I do understand your grief in leaving something you have been a part of for 35 years. I walked down that road when I left my church that I had been a part of for 37 years. Sometimes, one must make decisions that uphold your convictions and integrity. The best advice I can give you is not to go it alone. You can be very vulnerable at this time. Stay prayerful, and focus on the goal. Attach yourself to God and friends that have a firm foundation.

[Sister Alvear]

He and He alone deserves our loyality...For too long there was the mindset the UPC is God´s greatest voice and if you don´t belong something is wrong in yor life...I KNOW I faced it many times...However I have just keep my loyality to the One that called...
I never told my children about all those kinds of things when they were growing up...UPC, AMF, ALJC CIA or FBI...lol...
When will we ever grow up and do the REAL work of God? Billions of lost people out there my friends...

[Kansas Preacher]

Kansas Preacher,

Regardless of where you land (GIB or in the new conservative org. that will spring up with the help of the Western District ultra cons) I still plan on looking you up to say hello if I ever make it back to Kansas.

Coonskinner speaks very highly of you.

Please do. I would be honored.

[Kansas Preacher]

KP - I have not read this entire thread- but I do understand your grief in leaving something you have been a part of for 35 years. I walked down that road when I left my church that I had been a part of for 37 years. Sometimes, one must make decisions that uphold your convictions and integrity. The best advice I can give you is not to go it alone. You can be very vulnerable at this time. Stay prayerful, and focus on the goal. Attach yourself to God and friends that have a firm foundation.
Thank you. That is exactly what I have done, and will continue to do.

[slave4him]

Perhaps when the dust settles this will be best for everyone involved as you can't have an organization being pulled in two different directions.

Those who freak out at image magnification on video screens at conferences and the thought of utilizing technology in outreach have been unhappy for a very long time (as Kansas Preacher says he has been and I am sure many more).

The Kansas contingent of UPC has been so conservative he will be the second DS in modern times to go from heading up the UPC in his district / state to ditching it.

If the UPC is smart they will recruit some moderates to go into Kansas and start Home Missions churches in the major urban areas and larger towns to build a UPC presence there that will be moderate enough to not be ditching the Mothership every few years because they think it is too lib.

I find it ironic and rather funny that Kansas Preacher has stated that the previous bunch that left don't have much to do with him because he didn't leave when they did. The ultra cons don't even get along with each other!
I am sorry that you find brethren whom are having conflicts "rather funny" That is sad.

[Sister Alvear]

no matter where we go there will be conflicts. My motto has alwasy been preach what you live and live what you preach.

I know many many serious problems among the ultra cons too! As an old mother that has stood back and watched the scene of life among the UPC/AMF/ INDEPENDENTS and whatever I have learned that the human nature is all alike...
If it is not one issue it is another...the cycle that knows no end...
I chose just to work for my Savior and not become involved with politics...

and I am glad my husband is of the same opinion...God knows WHO to join together...He hates politics...

[slave4him]

One major problem is that just about every little thing divides conservatives... i.e. Christmas trees, fall parties, use of video and internet.... slits in the skirts, chopsticks in the hair, short-sleeves/long-sleeves.... hairbows, brown or colored stockings, colored or white shirts on the platform, the list goes on and on...

But little things don't divide the libs! You know they do. Look at how many have left over the years because things wouldn't loosen up for them. Your statement can be said for libs or cons.

[Brett Prince]

I of course, didn't really have you in mind, B.D. I was just throwing a thought out there. And, no to that last question.

What I have seen is that there are people who actually want to feel "offended" when they are around other Apostolics. They seem to get a spiritual high by saying, "Don't stand near me for I am holier than thou...." These are the ones I had in mind. They want to be mad and offended all the time.

Once at a Youth Camp we had a musical group that was sing after the kids all had prayed around a bon fire outside. It was one of those "We're out after curfew but that's okay...." kinds of things. Going through the choruses they got to "Stand by Me." This was about the time that a movie of that name had come out- I never saw the movie but I was aware that a lot of kids liked the song. "Whatever," I thought. At the time I actually thought that the song itself was based upon an old "Negro Spiritual" like "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" and others. A couple of boys from a new preacher's family came to me and immediately protested. "That's not a Christian song!" and all that. Based upon the way that they were raised, their parents actually rewarded them when they showed such antagonism.

I observe people simply get off on behaving like that. By putting other people down they seem to think that they are earning "merits" in the Kingdom of God. Sort of like "points to get out of Purgatory." Run down the camp preacher- you get points. Run down the NAYC and you get points. Slam UPC leaders and you get points. He with the most points wins God's favor.

This same spirit was prevalent in a certain group that Jesus rebuked often as he preached and ministered.

He didn't rebuke them for how they lived, but for their attitude, arrogance, and pride.

[chaotic_resolve]

KP -

They say leaving the church or organization doesn't happen overnight. It's a process that's planned out and takes time. While you're not leaving the church, you have planned on leaving the organization for a while now. It started months, perhaps even up to years, before now. When you resigned from being the Kansas DS, many said it was only a matter of time before you left. If I remember correctly, both you and CS firmly denied this. Looks as though they were right.

I hope you receive the same honor and respect you gave to the men who left the organization in '92 over the affirmation statement. I don't consider anyone who is leaving now any more a man of character, integrity or conviction than those who left then, though I realize that they ('92 exitees) were widely regarded as compromisers and charasmatics and the group leaving now is said to be men of honor and conviction.

The AS changed the makeup of the UPC much more than this tv resolution. The AS was a blatant requirement for all to abide by, while the tv resolution changes absolutely nothing for any pastor that doesn't want to use it.

I stated before, the passage of this resolution is much like the dress standards in the UPCI. Every church is different, yet that doesn't stop us from getting together and worshipping God because, while our dress standards may be different, our salvation is the same.

While you have planned your exit for a while now, I believe it's still far too early to leave the organization because of the passage of this vote.

You mentioned just allowing your dues to expire in order to leave the organization. In an earlier post I stated that doing such was a weak way to go. I don't mean to disrespect you, but the method in which you're leaving.

By allowing the card to expire through not paying dues, it relieves you of having to hand in your card and identify yourself as leaving the UPC. Instead, it's the UPC who takes your license because of non-payment of dues.

Understand where I'm going with this?

So instead of it being on record that you handed in your card and left the organization, what will be on record is that the UPC pulled your license because of non-payment of dues. In effect, the UPC - not you - is to blame for your leaving the organization.

Sure it's easier to go out that way - looks better for you too. I believe it's a little weak for such a man of your stature. And while we disagree on many things, I had believed you to be better than this.

God bless you and your family. I wish you the best in years to come.

[SDG]

CR,

You've made some valid points. Those leaving will claim the high road but their situation is precarious to say the least.

I will tell them the minute they leave and opine contrarily on the workings of the fellowship they left ... IT WILL BE DEEMED AS UPC BASHING by those in the ship.

[pelathais]

KP -

They say leaving the church or organization doesn't happen overnight. It's a process that's planned out and takes time. While you're not leaving the church, you have planned on leaving the organization for a while now. It started months, perhaps even up to years, before now. When you resigned from being the Kansas DS, many said it was only a matter of time before you left. If I remember correctly, both you and CS firmly denied this. Looks as though they were right.
...

God bless you and your family. I wish you the best in years to come.
Good points, CR. When I left I laid my card right down on the table in front of the board. For reasons that I no longer agree with, I felt that I "owed" some people my silence at the time. I regret keeping silent now.

For anyone thinking of walking away from the UPC over this year's Res 4: I think you need to really evaluate your convictions, or get your blood sugar tested.

[chaotic_resolve]

You mentioned just allowing your dues to expire in order to leave the organization. In an earlier post I stated that doing such was a weak way to go. I don't mean to disrespect you, but the method in which you're leaving.

By allowing the card to expire through not paying dues, it relieves you of having to hand in your card and identify yourself as leaving the UPC. Instead, it's the UPC who takes your license because of non-payment of dues.

Understand where I'm going with this?

So instead of it being on record that you handed in your card and left the organization, what will be on record is that the UPC pulled your license because of non-payment of dues. In effect, the UPC - not you - is to blame for your leaving the organization.

Sure it's easier to go out that way - looks better for you too. I believe it's a little weak for such a man of your stature. And while we disagree on many things, I had believed you to be better than this.

God bless you and your family. I wish you the best in years to come.
I sit here in my uncomfortable office chair corrected. It appears I've either received bad information or you have changed your mind. Regardless, I've been notified that you aren't going to just let your dues expire, but that you are going to send your card in with a letter.

As I stated to someone previously, I am sad that you feel the need to go. You and the others leaving provide a balance that's needed in the organization. While we may disagree over the tv ads (I don't think they're the end-all or savior of evangelism - rather another tool to use) and perhaps some other things, I've enjoyed the sincerity and graciousness of your posts.

(Of course, I haven't read what you've posted to CAF, so I could be mistaken) LoL

Again, God bless in your future endeavors.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

CR don't expect the Forward to publish 8 pages of "No Longer Afflilated" names in the 2nd quarter!

You are correct, the official stance will be "non payment of dues."
It is unsure how Resolution #3 will impact this stance.

[SDG]

I sit here in my uncomfortable office chair corrected. It appears I've either received bad information or you have changed your mind. Regardless, I've been notified that you aren't going to just let your dues expire, but that you are going to send your card in with a letter.

As I stated to someone previously, I am sad that you feel the need to go. You and the others leaving provide a balance that's needed in the organization. While we may disagree over the tv ads (I don't think they're the end-all or savior of evangelism - rather another tool to use) and perhaps some other things, I've enjoyed the sincerity and graciousness of your posts.

(Of course, I haven't read what you've posted to CAF, so I could be mistaken) LoL

Again, God bless in your future endeavors.

From his post on this thread he is in the valley of decision on how to leave.

Thad, I NEVER said, "as soon as it passes." I only stated that I WILL leave. That is my intention. I have been telling that the easiest way to leave is to let your dues lapse. It requires no action on the part of the District Board. It is just automatic. My plan has been to let that process work. My dues are paid through the end of the year. That would mean I won't be dropping out until the first of the year.

I have been reconsidering, however. I have been watching the UPCI drift towards liberalism for many years. (I prayed through in a United Pentecostal Church more than 35 years ago, and have been licensed/ordained for more than 25 of those years.) It has grieved me, but I have been unable to stop it. Yesterday, with the passage of Resolution 4, something in me died. This whole process has been, for me, like watching a loved one with a terminal disease. Even though you know it's coming, you still don't cherish the fact that they finally passed away. The problem for me now is, if I wait until my dues lapse, I won't be able to "bury" this loved one for three more months. In other words, there will be no "closure" for me until I am out of the organization.

[SDG]

CR don't expect the Forward to publish 8 pages of "No Longer Afflilated" names in the 2nd quarter!

You are correct, the official stance will be "non payment of dues."
It is unsure how Resolution #3 will impact this stance.

Boom please explain why and how you think Resolution 3 could play a part in their stance.

[Old Paths]

Short of dying graveyard dead, it seems like a guy could get out of the Mafia with a good standing before a preacher could get out of some orgs.


Go figure.

[chaotic_resolve]

CR don't expect the Forward to publish 8 pages of "No Longer Afflilated" names in the 2nd quarter!

You are correct, the official stance will be "non payment of dues."
It is unsure how Resolution #3 will impact this stance.
My father gets the Forward, and from what I've seen, it hasn't contained the "No Longer Affiliated" section for quite some time now. I don't get a chance to read it all the time, but when I've read through it, I haven't seen that section . . . probably back as far as last year.

I'm still unclear on Res #3 . . . so I don't know what all it could cover. That's why I think it's a bad resolution. It's too broad.

I hardly think KP should be placed under question, though I think the DB's need a clear guideline or template on how to proceed with this - and they need to be fair in that those leaving now are given the same scrutiny as those who have left before.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Short of dying graveyard dead, it seems like a guy could get out of the Mafia with a good standing before a preacher could get out of some orgs.


Go figure.

Does anyone like my signature line??

[Steve Epley]

Short of dying graveyard dead, it seems like a guy could get out of the Mafia with a good standing before a preacher could get out of some orgs.


Go figure.

YEP that is the truth.

[philjones]

One major problem is that just about every little thing divides conservatives... i.e. Christmas trees, fall parties, use of video and internet.... slits in the skirts, chopsticks in the hair, short-sleeves/long-sleeves.... hairbows, brown or colored stockings, colored or white shirts on the platform, the list goes on and on...

Yep! I believe you are right. If you don't believe anything is right or anything is wrong you can get along with any one. Thus, no division!

You are brilliant... brilliant!:killinme

(TICSO)

[Sister Alvear]

sad when brothers become enemies over a card game...and to me that is about all these things are in the light of how serious eternity is...

[Sister Alvear]

I think a lot of growing up could go on and we could mature and do a lot more for the kingdom...as long as we are fussing over trees and lights the world sits in mostly total darkness...doubt if they know most of us exist!

And I know sometimes there are serious differences however even then we can be careful what we say. I seldom say anything unless I feel something or somewhere is dangerous...Of course I am not a pastor...and some things are not becoming for women to become involved in...

[Sister Alvear]

Oh, my I just noticed the name of this thread...what I said is NOT directed to KP...

[Kansas Preacher]

KP -

They say leaving the church or organization doesn't happen overnight. It's a process that's planned out and takes time. While you're not leaving the church, you have planned on leaving the organization for a while now. It started months, perhaps even up to years, before now. When you resigned from being the Kansas DS, many said it was only a matter of time before you left. If I remember correctly, both you and CS firmly denied this. Looks as though they were right.

I don't EVER remember "firmly denying" that "it was only a matter of time before" I left. The fact is, part of the reason I stepped down was exactly what you described -- there have been ongoing issues between me and the UPC. For one thing, we've known for a full year that this vote was coming. I did not want to leave the District without a Superintendent -- remember they had been through that once in the last few years already. It was not a pretty sight, and was a LOT of work on the District Secretary. The current Secretary is a VERY close friend. I refused to put an unnecessary burden on him. I figured it was better to step down then than to cause a problem should this vote pass. That was not my ONLY reason for stepping down, but it was one reason.

I hope you receive the same honor and respect you gave to the men who left the organization in '92 over the affirmation statement. I don't consider anyone who is leaving now any more a man of character, integrity or conviction than those who left then, though I realize that they ('92 exitees) were widely regarded as compromisers and charasmatics and the group leaving now is said to be men of honor and conviction.

I don't personally remember ever having said anything negative about those who left over the Affirmation Statement. In fact, I believed then -- and now -- that they had a greater sense of integrity than those who stayed in, sign in, but don't abide by (or, in some cases, even BELIEVE) what they sign on to.


You mentioned just allowing your dues to expire in order to leave the organization. In an earlier post I stated that doing such was a weak way to go. I don't mean to disrespect you, but the method in which you're leaving.

By allowing the card to expire through not paying dues, it relieves you of having to hand in your card and identify yourself as leaving the UPC. Instead, it's the UPC who takes your license because of non-payment of dues.

Understand where I'm going with this?

So instead of it being on record that you handed in your card and left the organization, what will be on record is that the UPC pulled your license because of non-payment of dues. In effect, the UPC - not you - is to blame for your leaving the organization.

Sure it's easier to go out that way - looks better for you too. I believe it's a little weak for such a man of your stature. And while we disagree on many things, I had believed you to be better than this.

You have already corrected yourself on this. My original intent was to let my dues lapse. It was NOT because it "looked better for me." Rather, when a person drops out by sending a letter, the District Board must take action on their decision to leave. It provides the Board with an opportunity to put the man "under question." When a man refuses to pay his dues, however, the "computer" removes him from membership, and no further action is required. It is a "cleaner" way to leave. I was, as Dan put it, "in the valley of decision" for a brief moment in time. I have spoken with some "elders" in my life -- men to whom I look for counsel and direction -- and decided that I will not wait until January. I will, indeed, write a letter to Headquarters informing them of my decision AND the reasons behind it. I do not think the District Board will "put me under question." Nevertheless, if they do, they do. I am just convinced that I MUST go. I will let the "chips fall where they may."

God bless you and your family. I wish you the best in years to come.

Thank you. The feeling is mutual.

[Sister Alvear]

KP May I ask have you always been UPC?

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

KP May I ask have you always been UPC?

Did I read correctly - was KP the Kansas District Superintendent in recent years?

[Kansas Preacher]

Did I read correctly, was KP the Kansas District Superintendent in recent years?

I was DS for three years. I did not allow my name to be considered when I was up for reelection in May of this year.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I was DS for three years. I did not allow my name to be considered when I was up for reelection in May of this year.

Brother, my prayers are with you and your family. You have to follow where you believe God leads you. What other choice do you have? I respect your choice.

[Kansas Preacher]

Brother, my prayers are with you and your family. You have to follow where you believe God leads you. What other choice do you have? I respect your choice.

At this point, I plan to remain independent. I am not interested in joining anything else.

I appreciate your prayers, as this is not an easy thing for me. I feel like 35 years of my life have been stripped from me. However, I will go on. Again, thanks for the prayers. I sincerely need them.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

At this point, I plan to remain independent. I am not interested in joining anything else.

I appreciate your prayers, as this is not an easy thing for me. I feel like 35 years of my life have been stripped from me. However, I will go on. Again, thanks for the prayers. I sincerely need them.

I'm not just saying this. I promise to pray for you and your family. A transitional time as this is a time that you need extra support and encouragement. This sounds so simple - but is sometimes hard to do: Try not to look to the right or left. Stay focused and look only to Him.

[Starbucks]

It is not JUST the "TV thing." As I stated elsewhere, this was just the "last straw" for me. It was a BIG issue to me BEFORE I became licensed. It remains a BIG issue. However, it is not the ONLY issue. I know that no one is forcing me out in a literal sense. As I've said before, so say I now again, this is NOT a "knee-jerk reaction." I've had an entire year to decide how I would deal with it. This is the decision I have reached, and I believe it to be best for me and the church I pastor.

KP I've read most of this thread. I know that you have prayerfully sought the face of God and recieved council from elders in your life. I have also seen you go through firey trials in years gone by and seen the Hand of God on your life. I have prayed for you many times over the years and will continue to do so. Whatever your decision God is with you. Being affiliated with the UPC for 22 years I do have an understanding of your feelings. I pray God will direct your steps for you, your family and your church and that an unprecedented revial will explode in your church and city.

Godspeed my dear friend.

[Praxeas]

Change is nothing to fear, rather welcomed and embraced, as long as it is proper change. It is one thing to accommodate change that enhances and propels us in the right direction, it is quite another to embellish change that diverts us from our course and or reverses our direction.
Right and that hasn't happened here. However if the two sides could stop fighting for control and make the org something that facilitates spreading the goodnews rather than something that seeks to control it's members, we might have come up with better resolutions... That #3 resolution is absurd. The TV thing needs to still make a statement that we are not against the TV as a media, but we are against the worldly content that is on TV, just as we are against the worldly content that is on the internet

[Praxeas]

Many have looked at the TV prohibition as a human based principle when in fact it was put in place as an answer to protect the saints from erosion of Godly principles which were coming under attack through this medium. The church has always had the right to establish morality/moderation based upon current sinfulness of society as a whole.

The men who put the TV prohibition in place did so with prayer and a realization of its impact on the average person who would be impacted by its (TV) influence. It was not based on man made principle but rather to protect a Godly principle. Maybe it could be said mans rule placed to maintain Godly principle.

See that is where the real problem lies...this idea that a religious legalistic law can protect anyone. What the saints needed was pastors to educate them HOW to be spiritually discerning and to preach against the junk that is in the world, on TV, on the Internet, on radio etc etc...instead what we got was a one size fits all "Don't own a TV or you are going to hell" attitude. The sheep are not stupid and the ones that are are probably kept that way by a lack of depth in teaching and Pastoring

A principle is not "you can't own a TV...TV is evil" that's a law. A principle follows more along the lines of giving people guidelines they can use to make their own decisions through the word of God and prayer, instead of having these other men thing for them. Particularly since a lot of time that law was enforced by "I am the Pastor, I say so. If you don't comply you can't be in this fellowship" attitudes.

Owning a TV is not worldly. Watching worldly movies is worldly. Owning a PC and being on the internet is not worldly...watching or partaking of worldly stuff ON the internet is worldly

[crakjak]

Perhaps when the dust settles this will be best for everyone involved as you can't have an organization being pulled in two different directions.

Those who freak out at image magnification on video screens at conferences and the thought of utilizing technology in outreach have been unhappy for a very long time (as Kansas Preacher says he has been and I am sure many more).

The Kansas contingent of UPC has been so conservative he will be the second DS in modern times to go from heading up the UPC in his district / state to ditching it.

If the UPC is smart they will recruit some moderates to go into Kansas and start Home Missions churches in the major urban areas and larger towns to build a UPC presence there that will be moderate enough to not be ditching the Mothership every few years because they think it is too lib.

I find it ironic and rather funny that Kansas Preacher has stated that the previous bunch that left don't have much to do with him because he didn't leave when they did. The ultra cons don't even get along with each other!

No joke, I was a member a UC church in the Dallas area over thirty years ago, even though UPC distrusted and criticized every other UPC church in the area. "Yeah, you can go over there, but you will be leaving the cloud and the fire." And that was the attitude that was promoted. Oh, btw KP was a member of that church at the same time, so I can understand why he would be leaving. My leaving was precipitated to a great extent by the attitudes that were shown while at this church, especially during the HM and Kenneth Phillips oustings. This church has had its problems and has all but dried up since. These self-centered attitudes will not promote growth or revival or the spreading of the gospel. I'm am not referring to Kansas Preacher, since I have not seen nor heard anything from him for about thirty years until this forum, speaking of the UC world in general.

[BobDylan]

Yep! I believe you are right. If you don't believe anything is right or anything is wrong you can get along with any one. Thus, no division!

You are brilliant... brilliant!:killinme

(TICSO)

Is "division" ever justified within the body of Christ? Even among those who think they are right and are dividing over issues that are petty and trivial? Those who would divide over little things are themselves as little as the things they are dividing over.... Sir, you know it's true that there are divisions among the conservatives over these little things. Perhaps your sarcastic response is a result of your own acknowledging that what I stated was true. And instead of addressing the sad state of conservative pentecost, you'd rather make light of the issue as to divert attention away from it. I don't think it's necessarily the con's convictions of what is right or wrong. Either something is right or it's not, or either it's wrong or it's not. The problem for many cons seems to be determining whether something really is right or wrong or not. They truly believe that things are "wrong" that there is nothing at all wrong with them... and they truly think they are "right" and many have the worst attitudes towards their own brothers in Christ, AND the lost world.

Division is not justified within the body of Christ, even if it presents itself in the guise of "convtiction" and "right and wrong". There are things that are always right, and there are things that are always wrong, and those things are specifically addressed by God in his Word. But men have exalted their own traditions to the neglecting of the wieghtier matters, judgment, faith, and mercy... YES, these you should have done, and not leave the other undone. But in doing so, there is never a justification to preclude the specific instructions to "speak the same thing, teach the same thing, be of the same mind... that there be no divisions among you, that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and judgment" etc. etc... I suggest here that someone who has a firm "conviction" of "right and wrong", but does not have a firm conviction of "unity" are as bad off as those who have "unity", but do not stand for anything. The propensity of cons to divide over trivial issues is as big of a grievance as the libs who want to allow anything and everything. IMO... maybe next time Bro. Jones, you will take my post a little more seriously... I would hope so. Thanks.

BTW, thank you for commenting on my brilliance, I know you were trying to be facetious, but your comment was true nonetheless.:driving

[CC1]

Kansas Preacher,

While I think leaving over advertising or preaching on TV is absurd and illogical not to mention not biblical, I do understand your thought paradigm and that within it this is a big deal.

As I stated in my earlier post I think there has been a facade of "unity" for years now that perhaps this resolution will expose.

Both the ultra cons and the mods / libs will be happier and more productive with true unity. You will have unity with the ultra con GIB, AMF, etc brethern and the UPC can have a more coherent cohesive direction as they attempt to join the 20th century now that we are in the 21st century.

You ultra cons probably saw the writing on the wall when the Pentecostal Herald dropped that 1950's cursive font and started having those worldy color pictures instead of black and white ones!

Once you are over the initial emotional stresss of leaving the fellowship you have spent so many years in I would imagine you will be less stressed and happier.

[mizpeh]

See that is where the real problem lies...this idea that a religious legalistic law can protect anyone. What the saints needed was pastors to educate them HOW to be spiritually discerning and to preach against the junk that is in the world, on TV, on the Internet, on radio etc etc...instead what we got was a one size fits all "Don't own a TV or you are going to hell" attitude. The sheep are not stupid and the ones that are are probably kept that way by a lack of depth in teaching and Pastoring

A principle is not "you can't own a TV...TV is evil" that's a law. A principle follows more along the lines of giving people guidelines they can use to make their own decisions through the word of God and prayer, instead of having these other men thing for them. Particularly since a lot of time that law was enforced by "I am the Pastor, I say so. If you don't comply you can't be in this fellowship" attitudes.

Owning a TV is not worldly. Watching worldly movies is worldly. Owning a PC and being on the internet is not worldly...watching or partaking of worldly stuff ON the internet is worldly:clap:clap:cheer:rooting:hanky Well said!

[Praxeas]

Kansas Preacher,

While I think leaving over advertising or preaching on TV is absurd and illogical not to mention not biblical, I do understand your thought paradigm and that within it this is a big deal.

As I stated in my earlier post I think there has been a facade of "unity" for years now that perhaps this resolution will expose.

Both the ultra cons and the mods / libs will be happier and more productive with true unity. You will have unity with the ultra con GIB, AMF, etc brethern and the UPC can have a more coherent cohesive direction as they attempt to join the 20th century now that we are in the 21st century.

You ultra cons probably saw the writing on the wall when the Pentecostal Herald dropped that 1950's cursive font and started having those worldy color pictures instead of black and white ones!

Once you are over the initial emotional stresss of leaving the fellowship you have spent so many years in I would imagine you will be less stressed and happier.
:killinme:killinme:killinme