View Full Version : MARK JOHNSTON DROPS THE BOMB....The Aftermath
J-Roc
10-01-2007, 02:32 PM
Still pondering the message given by Mark Johnston on Saturday night at GC Tampa and I can’t help wonder about all of this…
Here we have an organization that is over 60 years old and God speaks to the constituency through this man of God:
An the underlying message is:
1- You are seeking the best seats at GC in order to be noticed…
2- Stop seeking celebrity status (your attitude is wrong and focus is misplaced)
3- You care too much about your image and the cars you are driving in
In summary, you are carnal-minded.
After 60 years should this type of message still be preached? Is this reflective of its spiritual maturity? After 60 yrs, it still needs to be fed milk as babes and be told to grow up spiritually? After 60 yrs, shouldn’t meat be on its plates…but no, instead, God speaks to the constituency through the mouth of this preacher telling it to grow up.
Does this turn on the light bulb for anyone? What is this? Why is it necessary to be hearing this type of message if it is not reflective of a poor state?
Just wondering….
ummm this is like the 3rd thread on this J rock
but okay i'm okay with it post away
chseeads
10-01-2007, 02:37 PM
A church is made of people. People are full of problems. At all ages and times.
Jesus had a message to the seven churches in Asia in which he commended them for their faithfulness and good works etc., and yet in the same breath rebuked them for their negligence and errors.
We all need our jaws jacked every once in a while.
Still pondering the message given by Mark Johnston on Saturday night at GC Tampa and I can’t help wonder about all of this…
Here we have an organization that is over 60 years old and God speaks to the constituency through this man of God:
An the underlying message is:
1- You are seeking the best seats at GC in order to be noticed…
2- Stop seeking celebrity status (your attitude is wrong and focus is misplaced)
3- You care too much about your image and the cars you are driving in
In summary, you are carnal-minded.
After 60 years should this type of message still be preached? Is this reflective of its spiritual maturity? After 60 yrs, it still needs to be fed milk as babes and be told to grow up spiritually? After 60 yrs, shouldn’t meat be on its plates…but no, instead, God speaks to the constituency through the mouth of this preacher telling it to grow up.
Does this turn on the light bulb for anyone? What is this? Why is it necessary to be hearing this type of message if it is not reflective of a poor state?
Just wondering….
Sounds like he is preaching humility.
If the shoe fits.....
Otherwise it sounds like a good message.
When you think you don't need a message like this, it's probably more of an indication that you do need it...
SoCaliUPC
10-01-2007, 03:19 PM
When you think you don't need a message like this, it's probably more of an indication that you do need it...
Agreed.
MJ probably would have rather preached any other message on the "grandest stage of them all" but chose to preach what God told him to preach. Having been there in person...and experiencing the aftermath of his sermon....no music, no fanfare, no words...just ministers by the thousands coming down and burying their face on the ground.
There are people within this organization that are more focused on appealing to the "brethren" than making an impact on their community and in their church. How many ministers are out there are neglecting their churches so that they could be known in the UPC?
crakjak
10-01-2007, 04:59 PM
Still pondering the message given by Mark Johnston on Saturday night at GC Tampa and I can’t help wonder about all of this…
Here we have an organization that is over 60 years old and God speaks to the constituency through this man of God:
An the underlying message is:
1- You are seeking the best seats at GC in order to be noticed…
2- Stop seeking celebrity status (your attitude is wrong and focus is misplaced)
3- You care too much about your image and the cars you are driving in
In summary, you are carnal-minded.
After 60 years should this type of message still be preached? Is this reflective of its spiritual maturity? After 60 yrs, it still needs to be fed milk as babes and be told to grow up spiritually? After 60 yrs, shouldn’t meat be on its plates…but no, instead, God speaks to the constituency through the mouth of this preacher telling it to grow up.
Does this turn on the light bulb for anyone? What is this? Why is it necessary to be hearing this type of message if it is not reflective of a poor state?
Just wondering….
Typical OP sackcloth and ashes preaching, that has been the stable for 60 years. It is easier to rant and rave at the saints than it is to set a true definitive vision. That is one reason I left the OP fellowship, no true direction, no continuing training or practical training just continual general rant and rave about how no one is doing anything right. It fills the alters with the saints but leaves them empty, general shotgun preaching that produces absolutely nothing. JMHO
How about a systematic teaching that has some real goals of discipleship, where after a few years the pew actually matures into full grown image of Jesus. This rant and raving raises the emotions but afterward leaves the hearers worse off than before.
To listen to this kind of preaching that I guess was directed at the ministry, you would think they were a bunch of heathen and reprobates!
J-Roc
10-01-2007, 05:08 PM
A church is made of people. People are full of problems. At all ages and times.
Jesus had a message to the seven churches in Asia in which he commended them for their faithfulness and good works etc., and yet in the same breath rebuked them for their negligence and errors.
We all need our jaws jacked every once in a while.
But this message was aimed at ministers, those in leadership roles not the church...and they (leaders) should not be having these kind of problems as a whole, as a group. God put this on his heart to speak because of something he must be observing as a problem within the leadership, no? After 60 years, should leadership be dealing with this immature problem?
Hebrews 5 said it best: "We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness."
J-Roc
10-01-2007, 05:12 PM
When you think you don't need a message like this, it's probably more of an indication that you do need it...
When you think it is fine for leadership to be getting this kind of message, it's probably indicative of someone trivializing the matter and sweeping it underneath the rug and pretending it does not exist.
J-Roc
10-01-2007, 05:17 PM
just ministers by the thousands coming down and burying their face on the ground.
Well, that's a positive response. I wonder how effective this all is in creating lasting change. Or is it business as usual after the tears dry up?
Still pondering the message given by Mark Johnston on Saturday night at GC Tampa and I can’t help wonder about all of this…
Here we have an organization that is over 60 years old and God speaks to the constituency through this man of God:
An the underlying message is:
1- You are seeking the best seats at GC in order to be noticed…
2- Stop seeking celebrity status (your attitude is wrong and focus is misplaced)
3- You care too much about your image and the cars you are driving in
In summary, you are carnal-minded.
After 60 years should this type of message still be preached? Is this reflective of its spiritual maturity? After 60 yrs, it still needs to be fed milk as babes and be told to grow up spiritually? After 60 yrs, shouldn’t meat be on its plates…but no, instead, God speaks to the constituency through the mouth of this preacher telling it to grow up.
Does this turn on the light bulb for anyone? What is this? Why is it necessary to be hearing this type of message if it is not reflective of a poor state?
Just wondering….
What is humility not being able to pay your bills?
That is not humility it's humiliating!
I bet he felt pretty good himself being in the pulpit!
J-Roc
10-01-2007, 05:27 PM
Typical OP sackcloth and ashes preaching, that has been the stable for 60 years. It is easier to rant and rave at the saints than it is to set a true definitive vision. That is one reason I left the OP fellowship, no true direction, no continuing training or practical training just continual general rant and rave about how no one is doing anything right. It fills the alters with the saints but leaves them empty, general shotgun preaching that produces absolutely nothing. JMHO
How about a systematic teaching that has some real goals of discipleship, where after a few years the pew actually matures into full grown image of Jesus. This rant and raving raises the emotions but afterward leaves the hearers worse off than before.
To listen to this kind of preaching that I guess was directed at the ministry, you would think they were a bunch of heathen and reprobates!
This is what baffles me...how can anyone be thinking "we need to hear this kind of stuff every now and then" without being ashamed about the condition that is being dealt with...
....it just paints a superficial picture for me....where is the depth? where is the systematic teachings you speak of? instead, the ministry receives a tongue-lashing for the state-of-the-union (I am not questioning the necessity of the message...evidently, it was needed. Rather, I'm questioning the maturity of the group that had to hear this elementary teaching after 60 years)....this is an embarrassing and shameful condition.
crakjak
10-01-2007, 05:33 PM
This is what baffles me...how can anyone be thinking "we need to hear this kind of stuff every now and then" without being ashamed about the condition that is being dealt with...
....it just paints a superficial picture for me....where is the depth? where is the systematic teachings you speak of? instead, the ministry receives a tongue-lashing for the state-of-the-union (I am not questioning the necessity of the message...evidently, it was needed. Rather, I'm questioning the maturity of the group that had to hear this elementary teaching after 60 years)....this is an embarrassing and shameful condition.
I agree with you, it is shallow and it produces nothing but frustration in the hearers. The OP fellowship is in serious need of some systematic and expository preaching. The Word of God preached in a systematic and expository manner is meat and it will build the Body, this type preaching that you describe is junk preaching and is ineffective. Correction: it is very effective in demoralizing and frustrating the hearers.
drummerboy_dave
10-01-2007, 08:43 PM
I wasn't there and am not UPC. Having just heard the message online, I thought it was very, very good. Provoking and inspiring. A call to put the ministry's focus back on lost souls instead of building an image. If you guys don't want to answer the call then don't. But don't embarass yourselves by trying to poke holes in that message. It was dead on.
chseeads
10-01-2007, 08:50 PM
But this message was aimed at ministers, those in leadership roles not the church...and they (leaders) should not be having these kind of problems as a whole, as a group. God put this on his heart to speak because of something he must be observing as a problem within the leadership, no? After 60 years, should leadership be dealing with this immature problem?
Hebrews 5 said it best: "We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness."
Even if aimed at ministers, they still make up the church. Jesus' messages to the churches in Revelation said "To the angel of the church of ________".....
Praxeas
10-01-2007, 09:39 PM
This is what baffles me...how can anyone be thinking "we need to hear this kind of stuff every now and then" without being ashamed about the condition that is being dealt with...
....it just paints a superficial picture for me....where is the depth? where is the systematic teachings you speak of? instead, the ministry receives a tongue-lashing for the state-of-the-union (I am not questioning the necessity of the message...evidently, it was needed. Rather, I'm questioning the maturity of the group that had to hear this elementary teaching after 60 years)....this is an embarrassing and shameful condition.
So the message was meant the preachers that have been in the UPC 60+ years???
BoredOutOfMyMind
10-01-2007, 09:48 PM
I wasn't there and am not UPC. Having just heard the message online, I thought it was very, very good. Provoking and inspiring. A call to put the ministry's focus back on lost souls instead of building an image. If you guys don't want to answer the call then don't. But don't embarass yourselves by trying to poke holes in that message. It was dead on.
After many years of lack of depth in GC messages, you are correct. This was Dead On and really good.
SoCaliUPC
10-01-2007, 09:51 PM
Well, that's a positive response. I wonder how effective this all is in creating lasting change. Or is it business as usual after the tears dry up?
J-Roc....its effectiveness will be determined at the choice some ministers will take....do they want to be heroes to their community and churches or celebrities within their organization? The actions will speak of those who choose whatever route they choose.
As someone who was there in the building when this message was delivered...there was a heaviness in the air. Just the response at the end put many into conviction.
pelathais
10-01-2007, 09:51 PM
I wasn't there and am not UPC. Having just heard the message online, I thought it was very, very good. Provoking and inspiring. A call to put the ministry's focus back on lost souls instead of building an image. If you guys don't want to answer the call then don't. But don't embarass yourselves by trying to poke holes in that message. It was dead on.
I don't think they're criticizing the message itself, just the fact that such a message was needed.
Given the human condition I think you will need "milk" type messages continually. Perhaps the criticism should be "why the milk?" But rather "why milk all the time, and seldom any meat?"
I got fired from a church because I came to be known as a "Bible Teacher" and for my "meaty" messages. People clamored the pastor to have me preach more and he took it personally - so I had to go. He preached for months after that about how the congregation wasn't ready for meat and complained that they still needed milk. Of course, if he was right- the church's shabby condition was his own fault.
SoCaliUPC
10-01-2007, 09:52 PM
I wasn't there and am not UPC. Having just heard the message online, I thought it was very, very good. Provoking and inspiring. A call to put the ministry's focus back on lost souls instead of building an image. If you guys don't want to answer the call then don't. But don't embarass yourselves by trying to poke holes in that message. It was dead on.
Absolutely!
SoCaliUPC
10-01-2007, 09:54 PM
After many years of lack of depth in GC messages, you are correct. This was Dead On and really good.
Actually BOOMM, if I can further that comment....all of the messages this year were really good and dead-on. I was very impressed (for lack of a better word) at the relevance and content of what was coming forward.
pelathais
10-01-2007, 09:57 PM
After many years of lack of depth in GC messages, you are correct. This was Dead On and really good.
Remember KC's sermon at GC back in... I have no idea what year? He preached on the subject of "God's Time Pieces." He pointed out that Jesus always said, "As it was in the days of Noah..." and so forth. He never said, "As it was 2000 BC" (or whatever). God marked time by the men who lived in that time. That's how important His people are to Him.
My only point here: That was the best GC sermon ever. First of all, because it was a sermon and not just some guy rambling about everything he'd ever heard since Bible School. The whole message was under 45 minutes- and powerful. My vote for Best GC Sermon.
What do we give the guy? Like a Grammy or Oscar?
chseeads
10-01-2007, 10:00 PM
My only point here: That was the best GC sermon ever. First of all, because it was a sermon and not just some guy rambling about everything he'd ever heard since Bible School. The whole message was under 45 minutes- and powerful. My vote for Best GC Sermon.
What do we give the guy? Like a Grammy or Oscar?
An Emmy since the resolution passed.... :)
BoredOutOfMyMind
10-01-2007, 10:04 PM
Actually BOOMM, if I can further that comment....all of the messages this year were really good and dead-on. I was very impressed (for lack of a better word) at the relevance and content of what was coming forward.
I have not had time to listen to them all.
Thanks for the reminder to do so.
pelathais
10-01-2007, 10:10 PM
An Emmy since the resolution passed.... :)
LOL.:)
drummerboy_dave
10-01-2007, 10:26 PM
I don't think they're criticizing the message itself, just the fact that such a message was needed.
Given the human condition I think you will need "milk" type messages continually. Perhaps the criticism should be "why the milk?" But rather "why milk all the time, and seldom any meat?"
I got fired from a church because I came to be known as a "Bible Teacher" and for my "meaty" messages. People clamored the pastor to have me preach more and he took it personally - so I had to go. He preached for months after that about how the congregation wasn't ready for meat and complained that they still needed milk. Of course, if he was right- the church's shabby condition was his own fault.Your historical circumstances aside, Pelathais, I think men would be wise to understand that God feeds His church exactly what they need, when they need it. Rather than criticizing and asking extraneous questions, they should gratefully recieve the word of the Lord in the spirit it was given; to admonish and bring them up to a higher level in God.
As has been duly noted already, the human heart is continually evil and constantly needs to be reminded of basic things, but furthermore, I believe that when God is satisfied with our behavior then He can change the message to address the next task He wants us to complete.
Oddly or not so oddly, knowing how God works, but I was 2000 miles away from GC and heard a very similiar message this Sunday by a completely different man. Praise the Lord!
J-Roc
10-01-2007, 10:44 PM
So the message was meant the preachers that have been in the UPC 60+ years???
Use discretion, Prax...learn how to form conclusions based on inference. Don't rely on everything being spelled out for you and being taken by the hand.
...60 years of foundation and yet there is still a need for admonishing the LEADERSHIP in these elementary matters....after 60 yrs of building leaders, surely this should not be a group problem...the fact that it was preached to the group makes it evident that at this stage in its life this problem persists.
How many years should a child be in the 1st grade?
Clue: about 1.
J-Roc
10-01-2007, 10:45 PM
J-Roc....its effectiveness will be determined at the choice some ministers will take....do they want to be heroes to their community and churches or celebrities within their organization? The actions will speak of those who choose whatever route they choose.
As someone who was there in the building when this message was delivered...there was a heaviness in the air. Just the response at the end put many into conviction.
I'm glad over the response and am hoping for lasting change.
J-Roc
10-01-2007, 10:49 PM
Your historical circumstances aside, Pelathais, I think men would be wise to understand that God feeds His church exactly what they need, when they need it. Rather than criticizing and asking extraneous questions, they should gratefully recieve the word of the Lord in the spirit it was given; to admonish and bring them up to a higher level in God.
As has been duly noted already, the human heart is continually evil and constantly needs to be reminded of basic things, but furthermore, I believe that when God is satisfied with our behavior then He can change the message to address the next task He wants us to complete.
Oddly or not so oddly, knowing how God works, but I was 2000 miles away from GC and heard a very similiar message this Sunday by a completely different man. Praise the Lord!
At this stage of the game, LEADERS as a whole should not be dealing with this chronic problem. If the LEADERSHIP is in this infantile stage of development.....oy vey!
Praxeas
10-01-2007, 10:54 PM
Use discretion, Prax...learn how to form conclusions based on inference. Don't rely on everything being spelled out for you and being taken by the hand.
...60 years of foundation and yet there is still a need for admonishing the LEADERSHIP in these elementary matters....after 60 yrs of building leaders, surely this should not be a group problem...the fact that it was preached to the group makes it evident that at this stage in its life this problem persists.
How many years should a child be in the 1st grade?
Clue: about 1.
He was not preaching to the foundation. He was preaching to MEN. How long an organization has been around is irrelevant. Paul admonished already settled churches. The Holy Spirit did too in Revelation. We have men that have not been around since the founding. Nor does the years of a foundation for an org ensures the leaders, or the general population, is going to have already arrived and be perfected and not need to reminded. Pro Football teams have years of foundation but still wisely remind themselves of the basic principles of the game, particularly if some are getting rusty. That does not mean everyone needed to hear that message either. There is no evidence the men this was aimed at have alwasy been that way.
J-Roc
10-01-2007, 10:57 PM
He was not preaching to the foundation. He was preaching to MEN. How long an organization has been around is irrelevant. Paul admonished already settled churches. The Holy Spirit did too in Revelation. We have men that have not been around since the founding. Nor does the years of a foundation for an org ensures the leaders, or the general population, is going to have already arrived and be perfected and not need to reminded. Pro Football teams have years of foundation but still wisely remind themselves of the basic principles of the game, particularly if some are getting rusty. That does not mean everyone needed to hear that message either. There is no evidence the men this was aimed at have alwasy been that way.
I repeat: About how many years should the child go to 1st grade? Prax, how long should you be taught the alphabet?
J-Roc
10-01-2007, 11:01 PM
So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding. (Hebrews 6)
crakjak
10-01-2007, 11:07 PM
So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding. (Hebrews 6)
WOW! Even Bro. Paul agrees. Assuming he wrote Hebrews.:sshhh That's good stuff!
drummerboy_dave
10-01-2007, 11:32 PM
Do you or do you not believe that the message was sent from God? That is the question, J-Roc. And here's a clue for you. We're all human! Yes, the same basic problems persist in the somebodies as they do in the nobodies. Some people want to straighten up when God reveals something to them and they seek Him for help, and other people ignore the forewarnings, thinking they weren't meant for them. Which are you? (Don't answer please).
Using language from the message, doing God's work is work. Who want's to get off their duff and do it? Some people will answer the call to be a hero and reach out for souls and some people just want to be another fat cat celebrity in the palace rubbing shoulders with the famous. Which are you? (Don't answer please).
You asked a simple question, How long should a child be taught the first grade? The answer is until he gets it right. Assuming your question is to illustrate the parallel: How long should the UPC be taught the same simple lessons? (That's your terminology by the way, truly there is much more to the message than that.) The answer is the same, until you get it right.
Praxeas
10-01-2007, 11:39 PM
I repeat: About how many years should the child go to 1st grade? Prax, how long should you be taught the alphabet?
1, however might he not be expected to review what he learned once he gets into the second grade before moving on to keep the things he learned fresh?
Do we never need refresher courses? BTW the issue really isn't about education...learning and memorizing facts.
Like I said...even football teams often review the basics especially when coming back from off season or when a coach feels they have lost sight of the basics. Happens often
Praxeas
10-01-2007, 11:43 PM
BTW as I stated before...how old an organization is is irrelevant. He was preaching to preachers...he did not say all of them. So why is it such an issue to point out some of the ministers themselves needed correction? It happens in most churches does it not? To be reminded of direction? To be reprimanded for failures? Happened in the bible. Paul did it. Right? I don't see what the issue is. This is not the only thing they ever preach, but if this was necessary and God authored it....why complain?
drummerboy_dave
10-01-2007, 11:52 PM
At this stage of the game, LEADERS as a whole should not be dealing with this chronic problem. If the LEADERSHIP is in this infantile stage of development.....oy vey!Maybe you're getting it. If the leadership has a problem, then maybe God wants to address it. Once it's dealt with you can move on.
BobDylan
10-02-2007, 12:29 AM
Still pondering the message given by Mark Johnston on Saturday night at GC Tampa and I can’t help wonder about all of this…
Here we have an organization that is over 60 years old and God speaks to the constituency through this man of God:
An the underlying message is:
1- You are seeking the best seats at GC in order to be noticed…
2- Stop seeking celebrity status (your attitude is wrong and focus is misplaced)
3- You care too much about your image and the cars you are driving in
In summary, you are carnal-minded.
After 60 years should this type of message still be preached? Is this reflective of its spiritual maturity? After 60 yrs, it still needs to be fed milk as babes and be told to grow up spiritually? After 60 yrs, shouldn’t meat be on its plates…but no, instead, God speaks to the constituency through the mouth of this preacher telling it to grow up.
Does this turn on the light bulb for anyone? What is this? Why is it necessary to be hearing this type of message if it is not reflective of a poor state?
Just wondering….
Is it possible that cons could be as guilty of this as anybody? I didn't hear the message, but I'd like to. I don't think it sounds as much of an indictment of the maturity of the organization, as it is an exposure of the maturity of this generation of pentecostals. This generation has not been weaned from the milk with this kind of preaching. This generation of upc has been satiated with prosperity message, revival at any price, thumbs-up Holy Ghost crusades, etc. etc. etc. This generation needs to hear this kind of preaching as much as any generation, even moreso. And in 20 years should the lord tarry, the next generation needs to hear it too. This kind of preaching, my brother, is meat!!! It's tough, hard to chew, but it puts muscle on the bones and hair on the chest (so to speak). This is the kind of preaching that strengthens the things that remains, it plucks up the thorny bushes, it breaks up the fallow ground, it fertilizes the unfuitful fig tree. This kind of preaching NEVER gets old, and we NEVER outgrow it! Give us more PREACHERS and fewer LEGISLATORS!!!!
--"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.... how shall they hear without a PREACHER!!!"
deacon blues
10-02-2007, 04:48 AM
Typical OP sackcloth and ashes preaching, that has been the stable for 60 years. It is easier to rant and rave at the saints than it is to set a true definitive vision. That is one reason I left the OP fellowship, no true direction, no continuing training or practical training just continual general rant and rave about how no one is doing anything right. It fills the alters with the saints but leaves them empty, general shotgun preaching that produces absolutely nothing. JMHO
How about a systematic teaching that has some real goals of discipleship, where after a few years the pew actually matures into full grown image of Jesus. This rant and raving raises the emotions but afterward leaves the hearers worse off than before.
To listen to this kind of preaching that I guess was directed at the ministry, you would think they were a bunch of heathen and reprobates!
I don't know about you, but I think most Christians NEED some sack cloth and ashes preaching once in a while. The flesh is weak, and it needs some readjusting from time to time. MJ's message wasn't ranting and raving as you put it, it was a sure Word from the Lord that frankly not only needs to be heard to OPs but to ALL of Christiandom. There is way too much celebrity-seeking in churches and movements rather than serving and ministry to the Body and to the lost.
Its easy to be an armchair quarterback....................................... ..........
deacon blues
10-02-2007, 05:17 AM
At this stage of the game, LEADERS as a whole should not be dealing with this chronic problem. If the LEADERSHIP is in this infantile stage of development.....oy vey!
Cheap shots, J-Roc, cheap shots.
One cannot judge an entire movement based on one sermon. And I do believe that this is a problem across the board in North America. I would say by and large most of North America battles with these kinds of temptations and allures. Hero worship comes naturally to the flesh and those who are ready and willing to be worshipped are many.
A critical and cynical attitude is evidence of shallow infantile spirituality, Roc. You should just thank God MJ obeyed the Lord, that people didn't need an "altar song" to manipulate them to the altar, and that people left rejoicing that the Lord loved them enough to chastise their carnality.
This is Christ's church and He is in control; if He wants a heavy, convicting message, then that's His prerogative. You work on Mr. Roc and let Jesus work on His church.
crakjak
10-02-2007, 08:07 AM
I don't know about you, but I think most Christians NEED some sack cloth and ashes preaching once in a while. The flesh is weak, and it needs some readjusting from time to time. MJ's message wasn't ranting and raving as you put it, it was a sure Word from the Lord that frankly not only needs to be heard to OPs but to ALL of Christiandom. There is way too much celebrity-seeking in churches and movements rather than serving and ministry to the Body and to the lost.
Its easy to be an armchair quarterback....................................... ..........
I will take your word for it, that this is the type of preaching that is needed. That fact alone seems to agree with J-Roc posts on the need for maturity.
Please give one thing of substance that a person could quantify and use as a stepping stone to greater ministry.
Again I define it as "shotgun" preaching that pelts everyone yet a few days later is healed and business as usual. True directional teaching is hard work, this is temporary, raises the emotions but no lasting impact. Requires a regular fix to keep the hearers charged.
J-Roc
10-02-2007, 11:35 AM
I will take your word for it, that this is the type of preaching that is needed. That fact alone seems to agree with J-Roc posts on the need for maturity.
Please give one thing of substance that a person could quantify and use as a stepping stone to greater ministry.
Again I define it as "shotgun" preaching that pelts everyone yet a few days later is healed and business as usual. True directional teaching is hard work, this is temporary, raises the emotions but no lasting impact. Requires a regular fix to keep the hearers charged.
It seems you are the only one that has understood what I am getting at. They seem to think I am against the message...when I have repeatedly demonstrated that I am wondering why they still are dealing with this issue...
....they seem to think that if God still wants to speak this message to them it must reflect a good situation.
...if God is still dealing with this, I doubt he has a smile on his face thinking "well done my good and faithful servant"....I would think his attitude would be more like "wake up you sleeper"
At this stage, this should not be the discussion...the effective training that you speak of, Crakjak, should already be showing good fruit....but it seems that the alphabet is still being reviewed...
...hey Prax, I'll be right back....I'm going to go study the alphabet right now...I need to remind myself that "G" comes after "F".... :doh
J-Roc
10-02-2007, 11:48 AM
Do you or do you not believe that the message was sent from God? That is the question, J-Roc.
See below and I'll let you draw your conclusions:
Here we have an organization that is over 60 years old and God speaks to the constituency through this man of God....
…but no, instead, God speaks to the constituency through the mouth of this preacher telling it to grow up.
God put this on his heart to speak because of something he must be observing as a problem within the leadership, no? After 60 years, should leadership be dealing with this immature problem?
Hebrews 5 said it best: "We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness."
instead, the ministry receives a tongue-lashing for the state-of-the-union (I am not questioning the necessity of the message...evidently, it was needed. Rather, I'm questioning the maturity of the group that had to hear this elementary teaching after 60 years)....this is an embarrassing and shameful condition.
drummerboy_dave
10-02-2007, 11:51 AM
Really, I am finished here. This is what denial looks like, folks.They seem to think I am against the message...when I have repeatedly demonstrated that I am wondering why they still are dealing with this issue...Because it's still a problem in God's eyes.
....they seem to think that if God still wants to speak this message to them it must reflect a good situation.
No, it's not a good situation.
...if God is still dealing with this, I doubt he has a smile on his face thinking "well done my good and faithful servant"....I would think his attitude would be more like "wake up you sleeper"
Are you awake, yet?
J-Roc
10-02-2007, 12:21 PM
Cheap shots, J-Roc, cheap shots.
One cannot judge an entire movement based on one sermon. And I do believe that this is a problem across the board in North America. I would say by and large most of North America battles with these kinds of temptations and allures. Hero worship comes naturally to the flesh and those who are ready and willing to be worshipped are many.
A critical and cynical attitude is evidence of shallow infantile spirituality, Roc. You should just thank God MJ obeyed the Lord, that people didn't need an "altar song" to manipulate them to the altar, and that people left rejoicing that the Lord loved them enough to chastise their carnality.
This is Christ's church and He is in control; if He wants a heavy, convicting message, then that's His prerogative. You work on Mr. Roc and let Jesus work on His church.
Cheap shots? This is God's message, no? He is the one with the wake-up call, isn't he? And now it's a cheap shot to ponder this message? Would it be better if we just sweep this message under the rug and pretend it never happened? should we just let the tears dry up after the tongue-lashing and then go back to business as usual....or should we reflect on this poor state and ponder on how to create lasting change...crakjak shared some suggestions on how to create lasting change.
Don't compare North America to the church, and much less to the leadership of the church. Don't pacify and justify a poor attitude of pride and need for significance and chalk it off to "oh well, most every other human is dealing with this and this is natural"
I just don't get it how you could think that people should walk away "happy that the Lord loved me enough to chastise me." This kind of attitude does nothing to correct the situation...it's just about a warm fuzzy feeling inside that the Lord rebuked me and no thought about how to correct this chronic problem within the Leadership...I find this bizarre and foreign. ( and I keep harping on the leadership because this message was mainly directed at the leadership...this was the Man of God, speaking the words of God to the Leadership...I'm simply reviewing God's words)
Major changes are needed and this isn't corrected by warm fuzzy feelings and silence thereafter...
MJ has made the state-of-the-union quite clear...Jeff Arnold did too at BOTT 07...
J-Roc
10-02-2007, 12:26 PM
Really, I am finished here. This is what denial looks like, folks.Because it's still a problem in God's eyes.
No, it's not a good situation.
Are you awake, yet?
Drummerboy, I have not directed this to any individual and you seem to keep taking a personal issue against me. You're making this personal...back up, dude. :saycheese
Also, unfortunately, you are not following accurately and have totally misunderstood what I have said....a careful review will show you that you are misinterpreting.
ForeverBlessed
10-02-2007, 12:33 PM
After many years of lack of depth in GC messages, you are correct. This was Dead On and really good.
I agree... I heard him preach this summer at my daughter's camp.. preached along the same lines the entire week... it was very much needed and you could just feel the times when he was hitting raw nerves... but it is needed.
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