****Newsflash: Cons to meet in Tulsa, Jan 2008: L. Booker Organizing???***

[SDG]

Most of us had heard that the cons would meet in January, 2008. Sources now say they will meet in Tulsa, OK. Allegedly, L. Booker is spearheading this effort.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

[tv1a]

What happened to Branson?

Most of us had heard that the cons would meet in January, 2008. Sources now say they will meet in Tulsa, OK. Allegedly, L. Booker is spearheading this effort.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

[RevDWW]

What happened to Branson?

There was way too much temptation there, you might see a show while just trying to dine...........:killinme

[CC1]

They are two seperate meetings as Kansas Preacher and several others have posted repeatedly.

The Branson meeting was set up some time ago and while some of the players there may be part of another meeting to organize a new org. the Branson meeting is not about that.

[RevDWW]

They are two seperate meetings as Kansas Preacher and several others have posted repeatedly.

The Branson meeting was set up some time ago and while some of the players there may be part of another meeting to organize a new org. the Branson meeting is not about that.

Do you think it's so they can get in a little entertainment, before it is totally outlawed? :sshhh





:slaphappy:slaphappy:slaphappy:slaphappy

[Cookin-with-Stoneking]

My sources have confirmed that the meeting is scheduled for January 24-25, they will be renting a auditorium in Tulsa, OK, that seats 2000 people, many will be coming from California, Idaho, Indiana, Texas and the South.

Phone calls are now being made to settle final arrangements and Flyer should be sent to the printer soon.

[Ferd]

My prayer is that this will lead to a solid organization where these men can be comfortable and can create something that will stand the test of time.

[RevDWW]

My prayer is that this will lead to a solid organization where these men can be comfortable and can create something that will stand the test of time.

I wonder how comfortable the Apostle Paul had it as he wrote most of the new testament?

I hate to say it, but, it's in the midst of comfortableness that the word of the Gospel is spread!

[Ferd]

I wonder how comfortable the Apostle Paul had it as he wrote most of the new testament?

I hate to say it, but, it's in the midst of comfortableness that the word of the Gospel is spread!

Point taken. comfortable was a poor choice of words. I pray that none of us are comfortable.

just in this, I really hope we end with two organizations that can live in peace. and both can be better at winning the lost.

[RevDWW]

Point taken. comfortable was a poor choice of words. I pray that none of us are comfortable.

just in this, I really hope we end with two organizations that can live in peace. and both can be better at winning the lost.

I agree with you. I don't see why it can't happen as it's been done in the past.

To be honest with you, I'm not worried about organizations as long as The Church is victorious!

[Scott Hutchinson]

I get a bit wearied with all of this if these good men want to form a fellowship that they feel is heading in the same direction that they are ,more power to them.
I'm not a uc,but I not out to harm the UCs.

[Hoovie]

It's strange to me really... are there not a few more conservative options already out there? Like AMF?

[UltraCon]

Well since the news is out you should know that it is not LB alone that is planning this. It is also JG, KG, NW, CC, and FO. Tickets from here cost $224 and we have rooms already. I don't know anything else except the organizers, dates and the location. Since Thad left AFF is way out of the loop seeing that this was "breaking news" on Wednesday. I've been watching to see when it would finally make it here.

[SDG]

Well since the news is out you should know that it is not LB alone that is planning this. It is also JG, KG, NW, CC, and FO. Tickets from here cost $224 and we have rooms already. I don't know anything else except the organizers, dates and the location. Since Thad left AFF is way out of the loop seeing that this was "breaking news" on Wednesday. I've been watching to see when it would finally make it here.

Who is CC AND FO?

[UltraCon]

It's strange to me really... are there not a few more conservative options already out there? Like AMF?

There's really not a lot of options out there. Some guys want to do something but they don't want to be independent. Others don't want to be apart of the AMF. These are men of integrety and principle that are organizing this. This will NOT become a UPCI bashing session. It is simply a place to go for so men and get direction as to what to do next.

[UltraCon]

Who is CC AND FO?

Bro Coon and Bro Odom

[SDG]

Bro Coon and Bro Odom

THE HMD Director?

[UltraCon]

THE HMD Director?

No Crawford Coon in Jena LA (in the same city that the Jena 6 are in)

[RevDWW]

There's really not a lot of options out there. Some guys want to do something but they don't want to be independent. Others don't want to be apart of the AMF. These are men of integrety and principle that are organizing this. This will NOT become a UPCI bashing session. It is simply a place to go for so men and get direction as to what to do next.

Are you saying that the men who organized and those making up the AMF are not men of integrity and principle?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Are you saying that the men who organized and those making up the AMF are not men of integrity and principle?

I don't see him saying that.

[UltraCon]

Are you saying that the men who organized and those making up the AMF are not men of integrity and principle?

That is NOT what I meant at all, i know good men in the AMF and I do not mean that about them. On the other hand there are men that were once UPC that do a lot of "bashing", that is NOT what this is suppose to be about. It's just another option for guys that don't feel they can remain with the UPC any longer.

[Hoovie]

THE HMD Director?

I believe CC would be his father.

[Hoovie]

That is NOT what I meant at all, i know good men in the AMF and I do not mean that about them. On the other hand there are men that were once UPC that do a lot of "bashing", that is NOT what this is suppose to be about. It's just another option for guys that don't feel they can remain with the UPC any longer.

AND don't want to rule out D&R and women in ministry.

[Pastor Keith]

Well since the news is out you should know that it is not LB alone that is planning this. It is also JG, KG, NW, CC, and FO. Tickets from here cost $224 and we have rooms already. I don't know anything else except the organizers, dates and the location. Since Thad left AFF is way out of the loop seeing that this was "breaking news" on Wednesday. I've been watching to see when it would finally make it here.

Actually I broke it that CC and LB were leaving, I just didn't include the organzing part, because I didn't have that information. We all are not that behind.

[UltraCon]

I believe CC would be his father.

I don't think he is? I don't believe there is any relation between Crawford Coon (who i'm refering to) and Carlton Coon ( the HMD).

[Hoovie]

Actually I broke it that CC and LB were leaving, I just didn't include the organzing part, because I didn't have that information. We all are not that behind.

Keith are your rooms booked?

[UltraCon]

AND don't want to rule out D&R and women in ministry.

what is D & R?

[Hoovie]

what is D & R?

Divorce and Remarriage

[UltraCon]

Actually I broke it that CC and LB were leaving, I just didn't include the organzing part, because I didn't have that information. We all are not that behind.

I'm sorry, I missed it. Shall we start calling you THAD?

:killinme :killinme :killinme

[Hoovie]

Can I get in this meeting?

[Pastor Keith]

Bro Coon and Bro Odom

Well I wish them all well and may they find rest in whatever unity they can develop out their fellowhip.

You know what the Russian Orthodox Church was fighting about when the Russian Revolution happened, how long their tassles were on the robes.

Ironic the Enemy at the Gates and what they were fighting over some insignificant compared to the challenge laid down at their feet.

God help the Oneness People not to miss the great harvest and opportunity for wanting to preserve the status quo.

[timlan2057]

I don't think he is? I don't believe there is any relation between Crawford Coon (who i'm refering to) and Carlton Coon ( the HMD).

Crawford is Carlton's uncle.

[UltraCon]

Divorce and Remarriage

I believe that under certain situations you can get divorced and remarried. It's not unconditional for us though. Af far as women preachers go well.............................................. .............................................

[SDG]

Amazing ...

It's no wonder the cons didn't break a sweat at conference ...

Only K. Prince brought the anti-TV ad case .... no one else ...

This Plan B ... has been in the works for awhile ... you don't make these type of arrangements within a week.

[UltraCon]

Crawford is Carlton's uncle.

Thank You, I know Crawford's Nephew that use to assist Bro Copeland in GA

[UltraCon]

Amazing ...

It's no wonder the cons didn't break a sweat at conference ...

Only K. Prince brought the anti-TV ad case .... no one else ...

This Plan B ... has been in the works for awhile ... you don't make these type of arrangements within a week.

As far as I know they DIDN'T start planning this until this week. They just secured the building on Wed.

[Hoovie]

BUT does CC hold a current UPC license?

[Bowas]

Well I wish them all well and may they find rest in whatever unity they can develop out their fellowhip.

At first I heard there was no intention of forming a new Organization/Fellowship/Alliance/Group/Club. Perhaps some are still in denial, but the new organization has been in the works for a long time now. Was just waiting for the "proper" battle cry.
It has arrived.
There will be a new organization formed. Not saying it is wrong, it is just been interesting to observe some deny it.

[UltraCon]

Can I get in this meeting?

Sure Come On, just sign the card saying you'll uphold the holiness standard. Oh... and no more "wife swapping"

:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme

[UltraCon]

BUT does CC hold a current UPC license?

Yes, we fellowship with them quite a bit.

[SDG]

At first I heard there was no intention of forming a new organization. Perhaps some are still in denial, but the new organization has been in the works for a long time now. Was just waiting for the "proper" battle cry.
It has arrived.
There will be a new organization formed. Not saying it is wrong, it is just been interesting to observe some deny it.

The denials are troublesome.

[Hoovie]

Sure Come On, just sign the card saying you'll uphold the holiness standard. Oh... and no more "wife swapping"

:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme

:shhh

[Pastor Keith]

Well I wish them all well and may they find rest in whatever unity they can develop out their fellowhip.

You know what the Russian Orthodox Church was fighting about when the Russian Revolution happened, how long their tassles were on the robes.

Ironic the Enemy at the Gates and what they were fighting over some insignificant compared to the challenge laid down at their feet.

God help the Oneness People not to miss the great harvest and opportunity for wanting to preserve the status quo.

Bump!

[UltraCon]

The denials are troublesome.

What is being talked about is not a new org as you would think. I don't believe it will be patterned after the UPC. This may change after the discussion session but as of now the intentions are to have just a lose fellowship of men of like faith. It will not a headquarters with paid staff or paid positions.

[SDG]

What is being talked about is not a new org as you would think. I don't believe it will be patterned after the UPC. This may change after the discussion session but as of now the intentions are to have just a lose fellowship of men of like faith. It will not a headquarters with paid staff or paid positions.

Loose fellowships will replace the organizational structure ... the days of the central corporate organization are OVER ...

the biggest advance ... for this happening ironically is TECHNOLOGY.

[Hoovie]

God help the Oneness People not to miss the great harvest and opportunity for wanting to preserve the status quo.Bump!

Amen Keith! I hope any new organization will be more successful than the UPC has been in working with other Pentecostal organizations such as the AOG.

[UltraCon]

Loose fellowships will replace the organizational structure ... the days of the central corporate organization are OVER ...

the biggest advance ... for this happening ironically is TECHNOLOGY.

If you want i'll try and get you DVD's of the services in Jan

[timlan2057]

This will NOT become a UPCI bashing session.


:killinme

[Bowas]

What is being talked about is not a new org as you would think. I don't believe it will be patterned after the UPC. This may change after the discussion session but as of now the intentions are to have just a lose fellowship of men of like faith. It will not a headquarters with paid staff or paid positions.

That's what I thought the UPCI was already.
Am I missing something?
The UC have been doing exactly that for years. Really.
PSR. (oops) West Coast Conference AMF etc.

[Steadfast]

I can't see what the big issue about such a meeting is. Organizations change and either the people (a) like it and stay or (b) don't like the direction and search out other options.

How in the world would you sensationalize something like that? Why they would sensationalize it has a more obvious answer. As this is old news they obviously aren't keeping it a secret.

Whoops... there goes our conspiracy theory!

[UltraCon]

God help the Oneness People not to miss the great harvest and opportunity for wanting to preserve the status quo.

Amen Keith! I hope any new organization will be more successful than the UPC has been in working with other Pentecostal organizations such as the AOG.

Stephen, please don't take this as disrespectful but I promise you this new org or fellowship will not be working with the AOG or COG. While the UPC and this new thing may have a similar message of salvation the AOG and COG salvation is completely different. I may have read this post wrong, if so then please forgive me.

[ChicagoPastor]

As far as I know they DIDN'T start planning this until this week. They just secured the building on Wed.

I know TWO preachers that were informed PRIOR to GC that there would be a "ultra-con" meeting if the resolution was passed.
Both men were told that these meetings would be headed by JG and LB and that part of the reason would be to talk about forming a new organization
This is NOT some last minute thing.....it's been talked about for a long time.
Maybe they're just getting the details ironed out but they planned to do this if the resolution passed....

in fact, these men also told me that some ultra con's rented a ballroom/conference room to meet immeadiatly after the resolution passed so that they could start making preparations.

[SDG]

If you want i'll try and get you DVD's of the services in Jan

I'd like that. I'll speak to the local cable company and see what it'll cost to televise the videos.

[Hoovie]

What is being talked about is not a new org as you would think. I don't believe it will be patterned after the UPC. This may change after the discussion session but as of now the intentions are to have just a lose fellowship of men of like faith. It will not a headquarters with paid staff or paid positions.

Hey there is exactly such an organization in existence already. It's called Global Network Of Christian Ministries http://www.global-ministries.com/

[UltraCon]

I can't see what the big issue about such a meeting is. Organizations change and either the people (a) like it and stay or (b) don't like the direction and search out other options.

How in the world would you sensationalize something like that? Why they would sensationalize it has a more obvious answer. As this is old news they obviously aren't keeping it a secret.

Whoops... there goes our conspiracy theory!

Are you going?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Steadfast I went to a UPCI section 7 youth rally in the AL. district tonight,Bro.Parker was there we had a good time.

[UltraCon]

I'd like that. I'll speak to the local cable company and see what it'll cost to televise the videos.

Cool, get us some quotes. We don't want none of this $5 for and hour on channel 2 that only four people watch, we want the whole world to see.

[ChicagoPastor]

What is being talked about is not a new org as you would think. I don't believe it will be patterned after the UPC. This may change after the discussion session but as of now the intentions are to have just a lose fellowship of men of like faith. It will not a headquarters with paid staff or paid positions.
Will these men continue to support UPC Missionaries??? If not, will they be sending their own missionaries??

[CC1]

What is being talked about is not a new org as you would think. I don't believe it will be patterned after the UPC. This may change after the discussion session but as of now the intentions are to have just a lose fellowship of men of like faith. It will not a headquarters with paid staff or paid positions.

UltraCon,

I respectfully suggest that they form a loose fellowship rather than a lose one.

:killinme

[Pastor Keith]

I can't see what the big issue about such a meeting is. Organizations change and either the people (a) like it and stay or (b) don't like the direction and search out other options.

How in the world would you sensationalize something like that? Why they would sensationalize it has a more obvious answer. As this is old news they obviously aren't keeping it a secret.

Whoops... there goes our conspiracy theory!

Elder, are you serious, anyone asking about it, there were denials and yet all along they knew what it would come to it. Why not be honest?

I am not against what they are doing, but the secrecy thing is troubling.

[UltraCon]

I know TWO preachers that were informed PRIOR to GC that there would be a "ultra-con" meeting if the resolution was passed.
Both men were told that these meetings would be headed by JG and LB and that part of the reason would be to talk about forming a new organization
This is NOT some last minute thing.....it's been talked about for a long time.
Maybe they're just getting the details ironed out but they planned to do this if the resolution passed....

in fact, these men also told me that some ultra con's rented a ballroom/conference room to meet immeadiatly after the resolution passed so that they could start making preparations.

You are right, it's been talked about. We've been talking about it at our church all year but it was only planned after GC and NOT at or before GC.

[Steadfast]

Are you going?

:hypercoffee

[UltraCon]

Will these men continue to support UPC Missionaries??? If not, will they be sending their own missionaries??

We have been supposrting mission through IAM for a while now. There are ZERO overhead cost. 100% of the monet goes to the missionary. We will continue to do this. Also IAM crosses denominations, it gives money to UPC an GIB missionaries as long as they are conservative.

[Steadfast]

Steadfast I went to a UPCI section 7 youth rally in the AL. district tonight,Bro.Parker was there we had a good time.

Great!

[ChicagoPastor]

You are right, it's been talked about. We've been talking about it at our church all year but it was only planned after GC and NOT at or before GC.

like I said I personally know two men that were called by JG's camp and invited to join a special meeting IF the resolution passed. This was BEFORE GC. They were told that a room had been rented where they would meet after the resolution vote.

[CC1]

Steadfast,

To act like some of these major UPC players holding a meeting to discuss leaving the UPC to form another org. is not big news is just not being real.

It is a huge deal. If it is done with grace and class as I hope then it will not cause strife or confusion and should ultimately lead to more unity for most mods / libs who stay with the UPC and the conservatives / ultra cons who branch off in this new endeavor.

If this meeting is successful just think of the cities in America that can be saved from short sleeves, wearing red, open toed shoes, and the internet!!!!!!!

[ChicagoPastor]

We have been supposrting mission through IAM for a while now. There are ZERO overhead cost. 100% of the monet goes to the missionary. We will continue to do this. Also IAM crosses denominations, it gives money to UPC an GIB missionaries as long as they are conservative.

what is IAM?

what is a GIB missionary?

[UltraCon]

like I said I personally know two men that were called by JG's camp and invited to join a special meeting IF the resolution passed. This was BEFORE GC. They were told that a room had been rented where they would meet after the resolution vote.

I don't know about that but the room was NOT rented or even found until this week. Tulsa was not decided on until this week either, they actually wanted to have it in Kansas City.

[UltraCon]

what is IAM?

what is a GIB missionary?

Independent missionary (like Bro Nix)
IAM is a missions program put together by Bro Jonathan Alvear in Sulphar LA. 100% of all money given goes to the missionary.

[SDG]

Steadfast,

To act like some of these major UPC players holding a meeting to discuss leaving the UPC to form another org. is not big news is just not being real.

It is a huge deal. If it is done with grace and class as I hope then it will not cause strife or confusion and should ultimately lead to more unity for most mods / libs who stay with the UPC and the conservatives / ultra cons who branch off in this new endeavor.

If this meeting is successful just think of the cities in America that can be saved from short sleeves, wearing red, open toed shoes, and the internet!!!!!!!

I am especially interested in reading their AoF and their position on the internet.

[ChicagoPastor]

I don't know about that but the room was NOT rented or even found until this week. Tulsa was not decided on until this week either, they actually wanted to have it in Kansas City.

I'm not talking about Tulsa, I'm talking about AT GC!

They rented a conference room AT GC, to meet, DURING GC.

[UltraCon]

If this meeting is successful just think of the cities in America that can be saved from short sleeves, wearing red, open toed shoes, and the internet!!!!!!!

This is what we are after. Don't tell anybody i'm on the internet.

:shhh :shhh :shhh :killinme :killinme :killinme

[Hoovie]

Stephen, please don't take this as disrespectful but I promise you this new org or fellowship will not be working with the AOG or COG. While the UPC and this new thing may have a similar message of salvation the AOG and COG salvation is completely different. I may have read this post wrong, if so then please forgive me.

No you read it right.

I see this as sad. When the thrust of a salvation message is a precise re-enactment of the cross rather than resting with total assurance in the cross it's self and the blood He shed there...

TV or no, beards or no, seminary or no, none of these "things" rise to the level of importance as the cross and our trust in it.

[UltraCon]

I'm not talking about Tulsa, I'm talking about AT GC!

They rented a conference room AT GC, to meet, DURING GC.

This is NOT true, maybe some guys met there but my Pastor was not one of them and LB and JG were not one of them. I know this firsthand.

[Pastor Keith]

Independent missionary (like Bro Nix)
IAM is a missions program put together by Bro Jonathan Alvear in Sulphar LA. 100% of all money given goes to the missionary.

Funny, I am not conservative or liberal, just consider my self to be a follower of Jesus with a wonderful Apostolic truth, but I have and would support the Alvear's as a missionary in the future. Would those of that camp support a missionary from a liberal persuasion, highly unlikely, this may not be fair but does bother me somewhat.

[ChicagoPastor]

Independent missionary (like Bro Nix)
IAM is a missions program put together by Bro Jonathan Alvear in Sulphar LA. 100% of all money given goes to the missionary.

Where is Bro. Nix a missionary to now?

thanks for the explanation

[SDG]

No you read it right.

I see this as sad. When the thrust of a salvation message is a precise re-enactment of the cross rather than resting with total assurance in the cross it's self and the blood He shed there...

TV or no, beards or no, seminary or no, none of these "things" rise to the level of importance as the cross and our trust in it.

I feel the HG. Now you're preachin' Wife Swapper.

[Coonskinner]

I'm not talking about Tulsa, I'm talking about AT GC!

They rented a conference room AT GC, to meet, DURING GC.

This is a rumor that was never confirmed.

[ChicagoPastor]

This is NOT true, maybe some guys met there but my Pastor was not one of them and LB and JG were not one of them. I know this firsthand.

really. I know firsthand two men that were called BEFORE GC to tell them about this meeting. I'll ask them who exactly made the call

[UltraCon]

No you read it right.

I see this as sad. When the thrust of a salvation message is a precise re-enactment of the cross rather than resting with total assurance in the cross it's self and the blood He shed there...

TV or no, beards or no, seminary or no, none of these "things" rise to the level of importance as the cross and our trust in it.

The apostolic message is Repent, be baptized in Jesus Name (not the titles like the AOG and COG preach) and receive the Holy Ghost (with speaking in tongues). This is the only way to heaven, until the AOG and COG accept and believe this the movements will not fellowship with each other. I was raised COG and I believe what they teach is false doctrine. They are good people but they are wrong on the message.

[CC1]

This is what we are after. Don't tell anybody i'm on the internet.

:shhh :shhh :shhh :killinme :killinme :killinme

You will be one of the "liberals" within the group!! Just like Elder Epley is a liberal within the AMF. I felt he was with him being on the internet then it was confirmed for me when I went to the AMF GC a few years ago and he was wearing a brown suit in a sea of black ones!

[ChicagoPastor]

This is a rumor that was never confirmed.

I'm confirming that I know a man that was called and invited to the meeting.

[Coonskinner]

BTW, someone reportedly saw Elvis at GC as well.

He was behind the platform during the PMA songfest, talking to Jimmy Hoffa.

[UltraCon]

Funny, I am not conservative or liberal, just consider my self to be a follower of Jesus with a wonderful Apostolic truth, but I have and would support the Alvear's as a missionary in the future. Would those of that camp support a missionary from a liberal persuasion, highly unlikely, this may not be fair but does bother me somewhat.

You are right. The fact is that conservative preachers support conservative missionaries.

[UltraCon]

Where is Bro. Nix a missionary to now?

thanks for the explanation

He's still in Peru but no longer UPC. We support him.

[ChicagoPastor]

BTW, someone reportedly saw Elvis at GC as well.

He was behind the platform during the PMA songfest, talking to Jimmy Hoffa.

ok man...make fun, but the calls were made.
I'm not posting a "rumor" that I heard from my friend's cousin's Uncle.
A close friend, received the call BEFORE he got to GC, and then while I was with him at dinner the night before he recieved a call to reconfirm.

[SDG]

BTW, someone reportedly saw Elvis at GC as well.

He was behind the platform during the PMA songfest, talking to Jimmy Hoffa.

What's funny is this "new org" was a conspiracy just a few weeks ago ...

The conspiracy line is getting old around here.

[Steadfast]

Steadfast,

To act like some of these major UPC players holding a meeting to discuss leaving the UPC to form another org. is not big news is just not being real.

It is a huge deal. If it is done with grace and class as I hope then it will not cause strife or confusion and should ultimately lead to more unity for most mods / libs who stay with the UPC and the conservatives / ultra cons who branch off in this new endeavor.

If this meeting is successful just think of the cities in America that can be saved from short sleeves, wearing red, open toed shoes, and the internet!!!!!!!


Well, regardless, I just don't see it being a big splash. Maybe the fellowship as a whole underestimated the depth of the convictions some of these men have... and would it surprise is that even some officials have similar convictions? I'm persuaded that we have men of conviction on every level of this organization.

I sincerely don't see it as a 'huge deal' but an expected one. For all the speculation floating around, I preached for Bro. Booker a few weeks ago and NOTHING was set in stone at that point. It would appear to me that they were honorable enough to wait for their peers to decide what path they would take before they made any further plans. That's honorable in my book.

I refuse to shoot at these precious men because from where I stand I can still love the UPC and yet see the predicament these men have been put in.

[Pastor Keith]

You are right. The fact is that conservative preachers support conservative missionaries.

You missed my point, I would support them, but they would support a person like a Dross, effective but moderate. Highly unlikely, now that is what bothers me.

[ChicagoPastor]

He's still in Peru but no longer UPC. We support him.

Do you know where his sons Keith and Kevin are? Are they still missionaries? Are they still UPC?

[UltraCon]

You will be one of the "liberals" within the group!! Just like Elder Epley is a liberal within the AMF. I felt he was with him being on the internet then it was confirmed for me when I went to the AMF GC a few years ago and he was wearing a brown suit in a sea of black ones!

I do have two dress shirts that are not white. One has a blue pinstripe in it and the other a black pinstrip in it.

[Pastor Keith]

The apostolic message is Repent, be baptized in Jesus Name (not the titles like the AOG and COG preach) and receive the Holy Ghost (with speaking in tongues). This is the only way to heaven, until the AOG and COG accept and believe this the movements will not fellowship with each other. I was raised COG and I believe what they teach is false doctrine. They are good people but they are wrong on the message.

No, the Apostolic message is the cross, Acts 2:38 is the application of that, we must never get that confused.

[UltraCon]

Do you know where his sons Keith and Kevin are? Are they still missionaries? Are they still UPC?

I would rather not speak for them since I don't know them personally. I think they are both UPC (for now).

[Hoovie]

The apostolic message is Repent, be baptized in Jesus Name (not the titles like the AOG and COG preach) and receive the Holy Ghost (with speaking in tongues). This is the only way to heaven, until the AOG and COG accept and believe this the movements will not fellowship with each other. I was raised COG and I believe what they teach is false doctrine. They are good people but they are wrong on the message.

and Jesus said to him, “I am the way,...

[UltraCon]

No, the Apostolic message is the cross, Acts 2:38 is the application of that, we must never get that confused.

Acts 2:38 is how to apply the cross so in essence Acts 2:38 is the message. You can't say "Cross" three times and be saved but you can obey Acts 2:38.

Are we to the point that we don't believe Acts 2:38 is the only way to heaven?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

If one of these preachers themselves came on here and said this is all bunk, some of you would still claim it is true.

:aaa

[Steadfast]

This is NOT true, maybe some guys met there but my Pastor was not one of them and LB and JG were not one of them. I know this firsthand.

Funny thing is that I think three of the nights I was there Bro. Booker ended up at the same restaurant as I did. One night Bro. Godair was with him. We chatted outside Cheesecake Factory for quite a while.

[SDG]

ok man...make fun, but the calls were made.
I'm not posting a "rumor" that I heard from my friend's cousin's Uncle.
A close friend, received the call BEFORE he got to GC, and then while I was with him at dinner the night before he recieved a call to reconfirm.

CP,

If this preacher is who I think it is ... who got the calls ... he is a man of character.

[CC1]

Well, regardless, I just don't see it being a big splash. Maybe the fellowship as a whole underestimated the depth of the convictions some of these men have... and would it surprise is that even some officials have similar convictions? I'm persuaded that we have men of conviction on every level of this organization.

I sincerely don't see it as a 'huge deal' but an expected one. For all the speculation floating around, I preached for Bro. Booker a few weeks ago and NOTHING was set in stone at that point. It would appear to me that they were honorable enough to wait for their peers to decide what path they would take before they made any further plans. That's honorable in my book.

I refuse to shoot at these precious men because from where I stand I can still love the UPC and yet see the predicament these men have been put in.

Steadfast, I think very few are taking any shots at these men. I believe most of us believe all will be happier with more unity after this.

I think the circumstances and attitudes are much different with this split than with the one that formed the AMF. There were very bitter men on both sides of that situation and the AMF took many years to work through that bitterness. For a long time they were a very negative group of men preaching as much against the UPC as for anything.

Now the ultra cons and cons fellowship on the basis of common beliefs and not on what card they hold. I think that will make this split much more amicable for all.

Oneness Pentecost will be much better off with two different groups pulling in different directions than one group being torn as it was pulled from two directions.

[UltraCon]

and Jesus said to him, “I am the way,...

Stephen, i'm not here to debate doctrine with you or anybody else. If you believe something other Acts 2:38 will get you into heaven then I would consider a study of the NT. I just don't feel like a forum is the place to learn doctrine.

[CC1]

Funny thing is that I think three of the nights I was there Bro. Booker ended up at the same restaurant as I did. One night Bro. Godair was with him. We chatted outside Cheesecake Factory for quite a while.

That contact along with the fact that you preached for him not long ago should be enough to get a rumor started that you are going to be an Asst. General Super. in the new org. or at least a district superintendant!!!!

[UltraCon]

Funny thing is that I think three of the nights I was there Bro. Booker ended up at the same restaurant as I did. One night Bro. Godair was with him. We chatted outside Cheesecake Factory for quite a while.

I don't know who you are but my Pastor spent the whole week at GC with Bro Booker and Bro King. I'm sure you know him if you know the Book.

[Pastor Keith]

Acts 2:38 is how to apply the cross so in essence Acts 2:38 is the message. You can't say "Cross" three times and be saved but you can obey Acts 2:38.

Are we to the point that we don't believe Acts 2:38 is the only way to heaven?

Maybe because I am a theologian at heart, I guess I can't help it. But faith in the saving power of Jesus is what saves us, that is why we have many outside of an Acts 2:38 experience and inside of it that absolutely have no joy or security in their salvation.

The essence of the Gospel is Jesus did for me what I could never do for my self (his blood paid my debt), my response to the Good news of Jesus is to have faith, repent and be baptized and be regenerated by the Spirit, but we must be sure not to get the cart before the horse.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Funny thing is that I think three of the nights I was there Bro. Booker ended up at the same restaurant as I did. One night Bro. Godair was with him. We chatted outside Cheesecake Factory for quite a while.

Conspiracy abetted by cheesecake!!

:telephone

[SDG]

Stephen, i'm not here to debate doctrine with you or anybody else. If you believe something other Acts 2:38 will get you into heaven then I would consider a study of the NT. I just don't feel like a forum is the place to learn doctrine.

Please tell me the time and place where we can sit and have this bible study ... I'd love to break bread w/ you.

[CC1]

Are they bringing in Tim Newstrand to do a multi camaera shoot for DVD documenting the meeting in Tulsa? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steadfast]

Steadfast, I think very few are taking any shots at these men. I believe most of us believe all will be happier with more unity after this.

I think the circumstances and attitudes are much different with this split than with the one that formed the AMF. There were very bitter men on both sides of that situation and the AMF took many years to work through that bitterness. For a long time they were a very negative group of men preaching as much against the UPC as for anything.

Now the ultra cons and cons fellowship on the basis of common beliefs and not on what card they hold. I think that will make this split much more amicable for all.

Oneness Pentecost will be much better off with two different groups pulling in different directions than one group being torn as it was pulled from two directions.

The funny part? The AMF got it's original start in the Church I Pastor.

[UltraCon]

Please tell me the time and place where we can sit and have this bible study ... I'd love to break bread w/ you.

Tulsa Jan 24-25
Who knows we might even pray you through

:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme

[Hoovie]

The funny part? The AMF got it's original start in the Church I Pastor.

Man, there may be a divisive spirit lodged in there... Cast that puppy out!

[Pastor Keith]

Maybe because I am a theologian at heart, I guess I can't help it. But faith in the saving power of Jesus is what saves us, that is why we have many outside of an Acts 2:38 experience and inside of it that absolutely have no joy or security in their salvation.

The essence of the Gospel is Jesus did for me what I could never do for my self (his blood paid my debt), my response to the Good news of Jesus is to have faith, repent and be baptized and be regenerated by the Spirit, but we must be sure not to get the cart before the horse.

Bump! for Ultra Con

[Hoovie]

Hello 10 guests!

[SDG]

Tulsa Jan 24-25
Who knows we might even pray you through

:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme

I just might show up as an on the field reporter for the AFF ....

I'll be sure to wear my pink shirt and pink tie ... and grow a full beard ...

Borat may tag along.

[Hoovie]

Bump! for Ultra Con

Thank You Keith! (I am sort of an UC myself!)

[CC1]

The funny part? The AMF got it's original start in the Church I Pastor.

Very interesting! Any oldtimers left from then?

[Steadfast]

That contact along with the fact that you preached for him not long ago should be enough to get a rumor started that you are going to be an Asst. General Super. in the new org. or at least a district superintendant!!!!


:killinme :killinme Come on, man... don't be joking around and ruin a good conspiracy thread! :killinme :killinme

[Coonskinner]

Are they bringing in Tim Newstrand to do a multi camaera shoot for DVD documenting the meeting in Tulsa? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just don't let him have the microphone.

Wouldn't want to embarass those men.

[UltraCon]

Bump! for Ultra Con

Are you saying that we are saved before obeying Acts 2:38?

Please, i'm curious, tell me what you believe.

Is speaking in tongues a must?

Baptism a must?

What about baptism in Jesus Name?

Will faith alone save us?

Will belief in Jesus alone save us?

[UltraCon]

I just might show up as an on the field reporter for the AFF ....

I'll be sure to wear my pink shirt and pink tie ... and grow a full beard ...

Borat may tag along.

Maybe GG will be there so he can have a second chance at praying him through!

:killinme

[CC1]

Are you saying that we are saved before obeying Acts 2:38?

Please, i'm curious, tell me what you believe.

Is speaking in tongues a must?

Baptism a must?

What about baptism in Jesus Name?

Will faith alone save us?

Will belief in Jesus alone save us?

PM me your name and address and I will send you the Booklet "What Christ Church Teaches and Believes". It will give you what we typically call the "PCI" doctrinal position on AFF. Or you can go to www.christchurchnashville.org and a short version of the booklet is online I believe.

[UltraCon]

Well, it's past my bedtime so goodnight all.

:bedtime

[Pastor Keith]

Are you saying that we are saved before obeying Acts 2:38?

Please, i'm curious, tell me what you believe.

Is speaking in tongues a must?

Baptism a must?

What about baptism in Jesus Name?

Will faith alone save us?

Will belief in Jesus alone save us?

We are justified by faith, and faith is transformative and will lead to obedience or it's not faith. When you stand before him on that great day, there better be one thing on your lips, I believe in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Salvation consists of

Repentance and Faith
Justification
Union with Christ
Sanctification
Glorification

At what point is salvation complete?

And yes Biblical faith will save us, everytime!

[UltraCon]

PM me your name and address and I will send you the Booklet "What Christ Church Teaches and Believes". It will give you what we typically call the "PCI" doctrinal position on AFF. Or you can go to www.christchurchnashville.org and a short version of the booklet is online I believe.

I will check it out when I get a chance. Thanks.

[Steadfast]

Very interesting! Any oldtimers left from then?

Oh... very few really. Most have died off.

[CC1]

I will check it out when I get a chance. Thanks.

If you go to the church website on the homepage one of the things you can click on at the top of the page is "About". Once you go there you can look on the left and click on "What We Believe".

[Pastor Keith]

Good night, sorry for hijacking a good thread!

[SDG]

Up to 19 people on this thread tonite ... bunch of gossipers!!!

[Old Paths]

The funny part? The AMF got it's original start in the Church I Pastor.




Really?

And who was the pastor then?

[Pastor Keith]

Bit of trivia, I pastored in a building that BM David pastored.

[UltraCon]

We are justified by faith, and faith is transformative and will lead to obedience or it's not faith. When you stand before him on that great day, there better be one thing on your lips, I believe in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Salvation consists of

Repentance and Faith
Justification
Union with Christ
Sanctification
Glorification

At what point is salvation complete?

And yes Biblical faith will save us, everytime!

Keith, I know you have studied this out, I don't doubt that. I too have studied a great deal of the Bible. I have degree in Theology and as we speak i'm working on Greek translations as part of a class i'm taking. I'm not bragging but I just want you to know that i'm not some uneducated county yahoo that only does as he is told. I must say that I completely disagree with your post. I do not believe faith alone will save. You can believe all you want but if you don't go down in the water then I don't think you'll make it to heaven. You must be born of the water and the spirit. Paul said if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. Now I know there are experiences that can happen before one received the Holy Ghost but I encourage everyone to not stop until they receive all that God has for them. What was Peter speaking for on the day of Pentecost? The Jews had asked a question "what shall we do"? Peter told them what to do. The message has never changed. It still takes repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and the Holy Ghost.

[SDG]

Keith, I know you have studied this out, I don't doubt that. I too have studied a great deal of the Bible. I have degree in Theology and as we speak i'm working on Greek translations as part of a class i'm taking. I'm not bragging but I just want you to know that i'm not some uneducated county yahoo that only does as he is told. I must say that I completely disagree with your post. I do not believe faith alone will save. You can believe all you want but if you don't go down in the water then I don't think you'll make it to heaven. You must be born of the water and the spirit. Paul said if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. Now I know there are experiences that can happen before one received the Holy Ghost but I encourage everyone to not stop until they receive all that God has for them. What was Peter speaking for on the day of Pentecost? The Jews had asked a question "what shall we do"? Peter told them what to do. The message has never changed. It still takes repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and the Holy Ghost.

See verse of the day above.

[UltraCon]

Now, Goodnight again.

:bedtime

[Pastor Keith]

Keith, I know you have studied this out, I don't doubt that. I too have studied a great deal of the Bible. I have degree in Theology and as we speak i'm working on Greek translations as part of a class i'm taking. I'm not bragging but I just want you to know that i'm not some uneducated county yahoo that only does as he is told. I must say that I completely disagree with your post. I do not believe faith alone will save. You can believe all you want but if you don't go down in the water then I don't think you'll make it to heaven. You must be born of the water and the spirit. Paul said if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. Now I know there are experiences that can happen before one received the Holy Ghost but I encourage everyone to not stop until they receive all that God has for them. What was Peter speaking for on the day of Pentecost? The Jews had asked a question "what shall we do"? Peter told them what to do. The message has never changed. It still takes repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and the Holy Ghost.

Continue on in your studies friend, because faith will obey or it isnt faith.

From a Dispensational viewpoint:

The basis of Salvation is the blood or death of Jesus
The Requirement has always been faith
The object of Faith is God
The requirement or application has been different in every age or dispensation in the church age that consists of a Acts 2:38 experience


See the bolded.

[Old Paths]

The funny part? The AMF got it's original start in the Church I Pastor.

Really?

And who was the pastor then?




Bump for Steadfast

[J-Roc]

We are justified by faith, and faith is transformative and will lead to obedience or it's not faith. When you stand before him on that great day, there better be one thing on your lips, I believe in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Salvation consists of

Repentance and Faith
Justification
Union with Christ
Sanctification
Glorification

At what point is salvation complete?

And yes Biblical faith will save us, everytime!


Applause for being succinct and accurate!

[Raven]

BTW, someone reportedly saw Elvis at GC as well.

He was behind the platform during the PMA songfest, talking to Jimmy Hoffa.
Sorry CS. They were mistaken. That was R.G. Walls and myself.

Raven

[CC1]

As I have said I have no problem with men leaving the UPC out of conviction and forming their own org. reflecting their conservative views.

However this morning I did think of a question. Are any of the men organizing this meeting ones who were part of the committee that presented the anti TV position in the Forward magazine and pledged not to leave the UPC if their position did not prevail?

[Nahum]

This board seems to have a real problem with truthfulness, and it's getting old. A couple of the men who are claiming this is just a conspiracy theory have already made plans to attend the conference that Daniel mentioned.

That, my friends, is outright lying.

The FACT is, there is a meeting scheduled, the main players have revealed themselves, and it will be advertised soon.

So why lie?
Why act like it's a conspiracy?
Why act as though talking about it is childish and ignorant?

Look, this is A BIG DEAL.

Please, stop with the lying. You people lose all credibility when you pull this crud. It's sickening.

Oh, and then you want to whine to everyone else about lying on the Affirmation Statement?

What you gentlemen need to do is pray through.

Now ban me if you want, but please, stop with the lying!

[mizpeh]

PP,

Praying for you. :thumbsup

You're going to need it for exposing hypocrisy. :drama

[Nahum]

PP,

Praying for you. :thumbsup

You're going to need it for exposing hypocrisy. :drama

The censorship and pettiness is very old.

I HATE it when admin and owners act like we are all stupid.

This is big news, and has been discussed ad naseum elsewhere.

Further, there is no other way to say it. Some of these men lied outright on this thread!


REPENT!!!!!


And I am serious.

[SDG]

I hear a voice whining ... I mean crying in the wilderness.

[Nahum]

I guess lying is only okay when it furthers your extremist agenda?

[CC1]

Pastor Poster,

Way too much caffine this morning!!! You are going to have to lay off the giant blue font.

Step away from the coffee pot slowly and lower your cup!

[BrotherEastman]

Pastor Poster,

Way too much caffine this morning!!! You are going to have to lay off the giant blue font.

Step away from the coffee pot slowly and lower your cup!
I think he needs a vacation. LOL!

[Nahum]

Does the constant lying not bother you guys?


or have you just become accustomed to it?

[BrotherEastman]

Does the constant lying not bother you guys?


or have you just become accustomed to it?
Yes.............and well I better not answer the second question. I just do not know why it has to be such a big secret.

[RevDWW]

Does the constant lying not bother you guys?


or have you just become accustomed to it?

Easy there my brother. Slow the accusation bus down a bit.

Perhaps they just changed their minds after the vote went the wrong way for them.

If there was collusion prior to the vote and folks involved said there was not then that's a different story.

[CC1]

Does the constant lying not bother you guys?


or have you just become accustomed to it?

I am not sure I have seen outright lying as much as "positioning" and posturing.

I do have to admit I found it astounding that Steadfast tried to post that we should all just whistle in the dark past the graveyard, that this meeting in Branson was no big deal.

If the new conservative org. attracts 10% of the current licensed UPC ministers wouldn't that make the new org. about the same size as the ALCJ almost coming out of the gate?

Again I see it as nothing to fear as there will be more unity for all once this happens but to act like nothing big is going on is amazing.

It truly is a momentous time in the history of Oneness Pentecostalism.

[Coonskinner]

PP, I don't know if you intended to gather me into that wide loop you just threw or not.

I have never denied the meeting in January, nor questioned it.

What I have doubted, and never really heard proof of, is the purported meeting that went on at a rented hall during GC.

It may have, but if so it was so secretive that I never heard anything about it.

[SDG]

Easy there my brother. Slow the accusation bus down a bit.

Perhaps they just changed their minds after the vote went the wrong way for them.

If there was collusion prior to the vote and folks involved said there was not then that's a different story.

They are denying collusion prior and during GC, DWW.

It's pure fiction.

[Nahum]

I am not sure I have seen outright lying as much as "positioning" and posturing.

I do have to admit I found it astounding that Steadfast tried to post that we should all just whistle in the dark past the graveyard, that this meeting in Branson was no big deal.

If the new conservative org. attracts 10% of the current licensed UPC ministers wouldn't that make the new org. about the same size as the ALCJ almost coming out of the gate?

Again I see it as nothing to fear as there will be more unity for all once this happens but to act like nothing big is going on is amazing.

It truly is a momentous time in the history of Oneness Pentecostalism.

Steadfast's posts trouble me.

I have both heard and viewed enough dialogue from elsewhere to tell me that his posts on this thread are, at the very least, disengenuous.

I say this as a matter of fact - not supposition.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I wish I could use Coonskinner's El Toro award on this thread.

Cause the idea that this hasn't been talked about and planned is a load of bull.


I will say it again.

If Larry Booker himself came here and said this is not true, some would not believe it.

[Coonskinner]

All I have ever said, when I have said anything, was that until just a couple of days ago, I had no personal knowledge apart from some unsubstantiated rumors that I don't know whether to take seriously or not.

The meeting in Tulsa I did hear about, I think either Wednesday or Thursday.

Maybe Tuesday, but not before that.

But I'm not exactly in the inner circle on this stuff.

[SDG]

Also the denials that they have been actively recruiting is bogus.

ChicagoPastor was marginalized last nite by a couple when he stated 2 pastors he knows were approached by those in the LG {North Carolina} camp before and during GC.

I know one of these pastors ... he has no reason to lie about this ... he is anti-tv ... but would never join the LG camp .... or leave the org over this

And knowing some of the workings of the NC district ... it does not surprise me.

[CC1]

BTW - Because all of this IS a big deal the movers and shakers from both campos are not going to want it discussed on forums like AFF so we can expect more pressure on preacher members, condemnations, rebukes, etc for having the nerve to have an open forum to discuss issues within OP.

Brace yourself for it.

Oh, and the conservatives leaving will have fulfilled their prophecy by leaving. They all feel that Res #4 is opening the door to more moderation and liberalization and now that they are leaving and won't be voting or shaping the future I think they are right.

I can see the UPCI over a period of decades reorienting itself to embracing and codifying core doctrinal positions and leaving corporate legalism up to individual pastors along with positions that in the past were considered "biblical" but are open to dispute like wearing makeup and jewelry.

This will not happen overnight but I can see a several decades process of moderation where the UPCI might start to foucs on the majors and not the minors.

[BrotherEastman]

I wish I could use Coonskinner's El Toro award on this thread.

Cause the idea that this hasn't been talked about and planned is a load of bull.
Especially when one hears about a split before the resolution. Coincedence?

[CC1]

PP, I don't know if you intended to gather me into that wide loop you just threw or not.

I have never denied the meeting in January, nor questioned it.

What I have doubted, and never really heard proof of, is the purported meeting that went on at a rented hall during GC.

It may have, but if so it was so secretive that I never heard anything about it.


You weren't given the secret handshake for admittance????:killinme

[Nahum]

PP, I don't know if you intended to gather me into that wide loop you just threw or not.

I have never denied the meeting in January, nor questioned it.

What I have doubted, and never really heard proof of, is the purported meeting that went on at a rented hall during GC.

It may have, but if so it was so secretive that I never heard anything about it.

Friend, I love you, and respect you highly.

But my intelligence has been sorely insulted by some of the junk on this thread.

What Daniel posted was absolute, 100% truth.

Why do some purposefully deny it?

Everyone is going to know about it when the flyers are mailed.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I am not sure I have seen outright lying as much as "positioning" and posturing.

I do have to admit I found it astounding that Steadfast tried to post that we should all just whistle in the dark past the graveyard, that this meeting in Branson was no big deal.

If the new conservative org. attracts 10% of the current licensed UPC ministers wouldn't that make the new org. about the same size as the ALCJ almost coming out of the gate?

Again I see it as nothing to fear as there will be more unity for all once this happens but to act like nothing big is going on is amazing.

It truly is a momentous time in the history of Oneness Pentecostalism.

C'mon CC1, not you also?

There IS a meeting in Branson of some preachers who planned some vacation time there. It is not a scheduled meeting to discuss a new organization.

What else can be said to prevent this forum being degraded as a gossip mill destroying the reputation of others?!?

I thought we rose above this on 02/13/07?!?

[CC1]

It will be interesting to see how some of the conservative preachers who pledged not to leave the org. if Res 4 passed when they presented the anti TV articles in the Forward will handle all of this.

Will they keep their word or do what some lib preachers do with the AS and find a loophole to leave over anyway?

I can see someone now leaving over "fog machines and colored lights" since they pledged not to over Res 4. LOL

[Nahum]

I will say it again.

If Larry Booker himself came here and said this is not true, some would not believe it.

He wouldn't deny it.

So the idea that this is make-believe is silly.

BOOM, you have access to much of the same info I do, why are you minimizing this?

What agenda is served to squelch the info on AFF and allow open dialogue elsewhere?

This is not org bashing, or people bashing.

These men have a right to form an alliance if they so choose. No one has slammed them.

[CC1]

C'mon CC1, not you also?

There IS a meeting in Branson of some preachers who planned some vacation time there. It is not a scheduled meeting to discuss a new organization.

What else can be said to prevent this forum being degraded as a gossip mill destroying the reputation of others?!?

I thought we rose above this on 02/13/07?!?

What do you mean not me to? I posted that I had not seen any lying on here, just posturing and positioning.

To say that Steadfasts post telling us this is no big deal and in essence we should just ignore it was amazing to me is not saying he was lying. I believe him to be a man of good reputation and a man of his word. I just questioned his judgement in that post! I have a feeling that upon reflection he might agree that this is a pretty big deal.

[Nahum]

C'mon CC1, not you also?

There IS a meeting in Branson of some preachers who planned some vacation time there. It is not a scheduled meeting to discuss a new organization.

What else can be said to prevent this forum being degraded as a gossip mill destroying the reputation of others?!?

I thought we rose above this on 02/13/07?!?

BOOM, this is not gossip.

Where is my friend Coonskinner? He will verify the truth that there is a meeting hall rented in Tulsa for January.

This has nothing to do with the Branson meeting.

[mizpeh]

BTW - Because all of this IS a big deal the movers and shakers from both campos are not going to want it discussed on forums like AFF so we can expect more pressure on preacher members, condemnations, rebukes, etc for having the nerve to have an open forum to discuss issues within OP.

Brace yourself for it.

Oh, and the conservatives and libs leaving will have fulfilled their prophecy by leaving. They all feel that Res #4 is opening the door to more moderation and liberalization and now that they are leaving and won't be voting or shaping the future I think they are right.

I can see the UPCI over a period of decades reorienting itself to embracing and codifying core doctrinal positions and leaving corporate legalism up to individual pastors along with positions that in the past were considered "biblical" but are open to dispute like wearing makeup and jewelry.

This will not happen overnight but I can see a several decades process of moderation where the UPCI might start to foucs on the majors and not the minors.
Why do you think liberals are leaving? I don't agree. I think those that left in 1992 may come back.

[Coonskinner]

Friend, I love you, and respect you highly.

But my intelligence has been sorely insulted by some of the junk on this thread.

What Daniel posted was absolute, 100% truth.

Why do some purposefully deny it?

Everyone is going to know about it when the flyers are mailed.


The respect and regard are mutual, Brother...

I'm not mad, just wanting to know if I was one of the supposed prevaricators. :)

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

What do you mean not me to? I posted that I had not seen any lying on here, just posturing and positioning.

To say that Steadfasts post telling us this is no big deal and in essence we should just ignore it was amazing to me is not saying he was lying. I believe him to be a man of good reputation and a man of his word. I just questioned his judgement in that post! I have a feeling that upon reflection he might agree that this is a pretty big deal.

BOOM, this is not gossip.

Where is my friend Coonskinner? He will verify the truth that there is a meeting hall rented in Tulsa for January.

This has nothing to do with the Branson meeting.

CC1 posted about Steadfast refuting the Branson meeting was part of an agenda. Thus my reply. These posts have link back features......

Pastor Poster, I don't post rumors from other sites here.

:hypercoffee

[Nahum]

The respect and regard are mutual, Brother...

I'm not mad, just wanting to know if I was one of the supposed prevaricators. :)

1. What Daniel posted is truth. There is no denying it.
2. The spirit of admin and owners on this thread was that this was baseless gossip equatable to a conspiracy theory. They did this knowing full well that a meeting is planned.
3. No one has bashed any preacher or organization on this thread.
4. It is not wrong to question motives.
5. This is THE biggest story coming from the passage of resolution four.

[Coonskinner]

I know absolutely nothing about a Branson meeting.

I read about it here, and that's it.

The meeting in Tulsa is a fact.

[Old Paths]

Originally Posted by Steadfast
The funny part? The AMF got it's original start in the Church I Pastor.



Originally Posted by Old Paths
Really?

And who was the pastor then?





Bump for Steadfast

[Nahum]

CC1 posted about Steadfast refuting the Branson meeting was part of an agenda. Thus my reply. These posts have link back features......

Pastor Poster, I don't post rumors from other sites here.

:hypercoffee

Rumors are unverified speculations.

Men on this board have stated they have spoken to the players involved. Other men have stated they will attend.

This is not a rumor.

[Nahum]

I know absolutely nothing about a Branson meeting.

I read about it here, and that's it.

The meeting in Tulsa is a fact.


Thank you Brother.

I appreciate your honesty.

[CC1]

Why do you think liberals are leaving? I don't agree. I think those that left in 1992 may come back.

That was a typo. I did not mean for that to be in there and have gone back and edited that out. I was strictly referring to the fact that by the conservatives leaving they will fulfill their prophecy that the UPC will moederate and become more "liberal".

I don't see a rush back to the UPC anytime soon. Most who left over the AS are PCI in doctrine and not 3 steppers. The only major one I know who is still a 3 stepper is Kenneth Phililips and probably Suber.

[Nahum]

CC1, I know of three libs who have left since conference.

Resolution four was too little too late for them.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

CC1, I know of three libs who have left since conference.

Resolution four was too little too late for them.

Where are they meeting to start a new org?

[Nahum]

Where are they meeting to start a new org?

LOL!:killinme

[CC1]

CC1, I know of three libs who have left since conference.

Resolution four was too little too late for them.

Odd timing. Sounds to me like they decided some time ago (as I did) that there was no way res 4 was going to pass and their momentum exiting the Mothership was too much to stop!

I think you will continue to see a slow trickle of lib exits for quite some time until the UPC moderates on the corporate legalism it tries to enforce.

Others will continue to leave over doctrinal differences regarding salvation, etc.

[Nahum]

I know absolutely nothing about a Branson meeting.

I read about it here, and that's it.

The meeting in Tulsa is a fact.

For those who missed it.

[Old Paths]

Because I preach from Coast to Coast for UPC, AMF and GIB 12 months out of the year, I THINK that I am pretty well in the know with most things conservative.

I heard about the Branson meeting about a week BEFORE UPC GC. It was presented as a RETREAT for preachers and NO agenda. The mere fact that JH from North Little Rock name was involved told me that there would be NO new org come out of that meeting.

The Tulsa meeting I heard about on Tuesday and it was presented as a meeting to DISCUSS the forming of "a loose neat fellowship with no paid offices" and nothing resembling the UPCI. It actually sounded like a kinder and gentler AMF :D

As far as men leaving, does the UPC (or anyone else) think these men will just knuckle under and be good little boys because the org says so.

Not going to happen.

These men have watched the UPC drift to the left for years and feel that there is no way to turn the course, hence the new fellowship.

Back in 91 (?), I don't seem to remember a major fuss, cries of conspiracy and name calling when libs where bailing because of the AS.

[SDG]

Because I preach from Coast to Coast for UPC, AMF and GIB 12 months out of the year, I THINK that I am pretty well in the know with most things conservative.

I heard about the Branson meeting about a week BEFORE UPC GC. It was presented as a RETREAT for preachers and NO agenda. The mere fact that JH from North Little Rock name was involved told me that there would be NO new org come out of that meeting.

The Tulsa meeting I heard about on Tuesday and it was presented as a meeting to DISCUSS the forming of "a loose neat fellowship with no paid offices" and nothing resembling the UPCI. It actually sounded like a kinder and gentler AMF :D

As far as men leaving, does the UPC (or anyone else) think these men will just knuckle under and be good little boys because the org says so.

Not going to happen.

These men have watched the UPC drift to the left for years and feel that there is no way to turn the course, hence the new fellowship.

Back in 91 (?), I don't seem to remember a major fuss, cries of conspiracy and name calling when libs where bailing because of the AS.

Thanks OP.

So this nice little loose fellowship w/ no paid offices idea sprung on someone from the last day of GC, Sunday to Tuesday? Truly incredible.

[SDG]

You are right, it's been talked about. We've been talking about it at our church all year but it was only planned after GC and NOT at or before GC.

Planned in 2 days?

[Old Paths]

Thanks OP.

So this nice little loose fellowship w/ no paid offices idea sprung on someone from the last day of GC, Sunday to Tuesday? Truly incredible.




Hi Dan

Having a reading comprehension problem today?

I never said anything resembling your post.

I KNOW that coming out of the org and starting a new fellowship has been discussed for YEARS.

Nothing new.

BUT, I heard about the meeting TUESDAY.

OK?

You probably believe that the USAF drove the planes into the Towers.

:D

[stmatthew]

The censorship and pettiness is very old.

I HATE it when admin and owners act like we are all stupid.

This is big news, and has been discussed ad naseum elsewhere.

Further, there is no other way to say it. Some of these men lied outright on this thread!


REPENT!!!!!


And I am serious.

My friend, you post here crossed a MAJOR line that I am not going to allow. ADMIN did not CENSOR or LIE. Remember that each person in admin, unless dealing with an issue as I am right now, is also a poster, and has their OWN opinion.

But to openly give a blanket statement that all admin are liars is way over the, and is not acceptable here.

[SDG]

Hi Dan

Having a reading comprehension problem today?

I never said anything resembling your post.

I KNOW that coming out of the org and starting a new fellowship has been discussed for YEARS.

Nothing new.

BUT, I heard about the meeting TUESDAY.

OK?

You probably believe that the USAF drove the planes into the Towers.

:D

I didn't say you said it ... I'm referring to some of the Bagdad Bobs in the Ministry of Misinformation.

It would be naive to think the cons did not have an exit strategy ... the Tulsa venue was finalized after GC perhaps? but surely we can't think it's genesis in planning started after GC ... especially when the cons were working the phones and ears of ministers before , during and after conference.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/4/W/baghdadbob_conquer.jpg

[RevDWW]

The censorship and pettiness is very old.

I HATE it when admin and owners act like we are all stupid.

This is big news, and has been discussed ad naseum elsewhere.

Further, there is no other way to say it. Some of these men lied outright on this thread!


REPENT!!!!!


And I am serious.

Easy there my brother. Slow the accusation bus down a bit.

Perhaps they just changed their minds after the vote went the wrong way for them.

If there was collusion prior to the vote and folks involved said there was not then that's a different story.

My friend, you post here crossed a MAJOR line that I am not going to allow. ADMIN did not CENSOR or LIE. Remember that each person in admin, unless dealing with an issue as I am right now, is also a poster, and has their OWN opinion.

But to openly give a blanket statement that all admin are liars is way over the, and is not acceptable here.

St. Matt ,
I'm not saying PP wasn't a little carried away, but it appears that he is not impugning "all admin" as liars. Re-read the bolded.

Perhaps everyone should step back and breath deeply and relax. Then come back to this later.

Sincerely and with Much Love,
RevDWW

[Coonskinner]

I can't see what the big issue about such a meeting is. Organizations change and either the people (a) like it and stay or (b) don't like the direction and search out other options.

How in the world would you sensationalize something like that? Why they would sensationalize it has a more obvious answer. As this is old news they obviously aren't keeping it a secret.

Whoops... there goes our conspiracy theory!

Post #1 by Steadfast in this thread---where is the lie?

[Coonskinner]

:hypercoffee

Post #2 by Steadfast.

A smiley.

[Coonskinner]

Great!


Post #3 by Steadfast.

One word.

[Coonskinner]

Well, regardless, I just don't see it being a big splash. Maybe the fellowship as a whole underestimated the depth of the convictions some of these men have... and would it surprise is that even some officials have similar convictions? I'm persuaded that we have men of conviction on every level of this organization.

I sincerely don't see it as a 'huge deal' but an expected one. For all the speculation floating around, I preached for Bro. Booker a few weeks ago and NOTHING was set in stone at that point. It would appear to me that they were honorable enough to wait for their peers to decide what path they would take before they made any further plans. That's honorable in my book.

I refuse to shoot at these precious men because from where I stand I can still love the UPC and yet see the predicament these men have been put in.

Next post--no lies, no denials.

[Coonskinner]

Funny thing is that I think three of the nights I was there Bro. Booker ended up at the same restaurant as I did. One night Bro. Godair was with him. We chatted outside Cheesecake Factory for quite a while.


No lies here.

I can confirm that he actually did meet Brother Booker at the CF.

I was there too.

[Coonskinner]

The funny part? The AMF got it's original start in the Church I Pastor.

Post #6.

Again, a true post.

[The Dean]

Post #1 by Steadfast in this thread---where is the lie?

Post #2 by Steadfast.

A smiley.

Post #3 by Steadfast.

One word.

Next post--no lies, no denials.

According to some you should be infracted for confusing these grandois accusations with facts. :killinme

[Coonskinner]

:killinme :killinme Come on, man... don't be joking around and ruin a good conspiracy thread! :killinme :killinme

Post #7.

Problem?

Where?

What?

[Coonskinner]

Oh... very few really. Most have died off.


Post #8.

Read em and weep.

[stmatthew]

AS ADMIN AND OWNER

Folk the rules are very plain, and admin have errored on the side of mercy in holding members to them. But openly accusing admin of censorship, or any other thing for that manner is going to stop. If you don't like this FREE forum that has been provided for you, then shop elsewhere. The constant tearing down, and the venom and hateful bad attitudes are not welcome here anymore, and if it means I am left talking to myself, they will go.

IF you have a problem with admins decisions, you need to take it to pm or email. NO other forum would have been as patient as we have been on this rule. But today it ends.

I hope everyone understands very plainly what I have written, because ALL admin want this place to be a place where discussion can take place without always having to deal with junk.

[Coonskinner]

I have just quoted every post by Steadfast in this thread.

PP, I love you Buddy, but you have your wires crossed on this one.

The posts speak for themselves.

You might ought to back up and punt.

[SDG]

I have just quoted every post by Steadfast in this thread.

PP, I love you Buddy, but you have your wires crossed on this one.

The posts speak for themselves.

You might ought to back up and punt.

He'll have to respond in a week ... my Kansas colleague.

[Coonskinner]

He'll have to respond in a week ... my Kansas colleague.


I love my Brother, but he was wrong on this one.

[SDG]

I love my Brother, but he was wrong on this one.

I feel there is an attempt obfuscate some of the facts and details now coming out ... and those facts that will continue to surface... in the next few months. I don't think it's unfair for us ... quite a few in this thread to feel we are not getting the full story ...

and when these stories surface ... for others to resort to Jimmy Hoffa, Elvis sightings ... referring to black choppers and take out the now favorite 'conspiracy" tact ... can seem disingenuous at the least ... spinning and muddying the waters for sure.

[stmatthew]

I feel there is an attempt obfuscate some of the facts and details now coming out ... and those fact will continue to surface... in the next few months. I don't think it's unfair for us ... quite a few in this thread to feel we are not getting the full story ...

and when these stories surface ... for others to resort to Jimmy Hoffa, Elvis sightings ... referring to black choppers and take out the now favorite 'conspiracy" tact ... can seem disingenuous at the least ... spinning and muddying the waters for sure.

The sad fact is that you are mistaken in that you think you deserve to know when you are neither UPCI or conservative. Just to balance this out, I was not invited, but I do not care either.

This is the best think that has happened to Pennycost in a while. The conservatives and moderates/liberals are finally going to be able to move forward towards their prospective goals. Maybe, just maybe, they will each find the place God has called them to in this our, and work within their own convictions to the saving of souls.

[SDG]

The sad fact is that you are mistaken in that you think you deserve to know when you are neither UPCI or conservative. Just to balance this out, I was not invited, but I do not care either.

This is the best think that has happened to Pennycost in a while. The conservatives and moderates/liberals are finally going to be able to move forward towards their prospective goals. Maybe, just maybe, they will each find the place God has called them to in this our, and work within their own convictions to the saving of souls.


I'm sorry Matt ... when did I say we deserved anything?

But when these stories surface often the messengers are marginalized, ridiculed as being conspiracy theorists, and in some cases "forceD" to to leave.

Yet ... many of these stories pan out .. in one way or another ... which makes us feel we're not getting the FULL STORY and feel "lied" to.

[The Dean]

The sad fact is that you are mistaken in that you think you deserve to know when you are neither UPCI or conservative. Just to balance this out, I was not invited, but I do not care either.

This is the best think that has happened to Pennycost in a while. The conservatives and moderates/liberals are finally going to be able to move forward towards their prospective goals. Maybe, just maybe, they will each find the place God has called them to in this our, and work within their own convictions to the saving of souls.

There is a lot of truth in this post.

[The Dean]

I'm sorry Matt ... when did I say we deserved anything?

But when these stories surface often the messengers are marginalized, ridiculed as being conspiracy theorists, and in some cases "forceD" to to leave.

Yet ... many of these stories pan out .. in one way or another ... which makes us feel we're not getting the FULL STORY.

When was someone forced to leave? Talk about fabrication of facts!

[SDG]

I'm sorry Matt ... when did I say we deserved anything?

But when these stories surface often the messengers are marginalized, ridiculed as being conspiracy theorists, and in some cases "forceD" to to leave.

Yet ... many of these stories pan out .. in one way or another ... which makes us feel we're not getting the FULL STORY and feel "lied" to.

bump for Dean

[SDG]

When was someone forced to leave? Talk about fabrication of facts!

"forced" is quoted ... as to connote perception. Perceptions are not fabrications.

[The Dean]

bump for Dean

I've seen the 'bump' and reread the post but still know of nobody who has been forced to leave.

[stmatthew]

I'm sorry Matt ... when did I say we deserved anything?

But when these stories surface often the messengers are marginalized, ridiculed as being conspiracy theorists, and in some cases "forceD" to to leave.

Yet ... many of these stories pan out .. in one way or another ... which makes us feel we're not getting the FULL STORY.

You reap what you so, brother Daniel.


On this forum you, from my perspective, have left no stone unturned in your attempt to ridicule and belittle the conservatives of the Apostolic movement.


Now I am assuming you are speaking of Thad when you say someone was forced to leave. Thad has not been forced to leave, and as far as I know was logged on last night, as I had a PM from him this morning. IF someone has done nothing wrong, then someone has nothing to fear, right?? What is the verse......

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

[chosenbyone]

4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions

1 Timothy 6:4 (NIV)

Dan,

Can't you find peace with this situation and just let people do what they are going to do? GC has ended and all this pointing fingers and making accusations has grown old.

Why don't you go out and do something fun with your kids today and forget about all this drama? I have always admired you brother and that hasn't changed.

God bless you...

[The Dean]

You reap what you so, brother Daniel.


On this forum you, from my perspective, have left no stone unturned in your attempt to ridicule and belittle the conservatives of the Apostolic movement.


Now I am assuming you are speaking of Thad when you say someone was forced to leave. Thad has not been forced to leave, and as far as I know was logged on last night, as I had a PM from him this morning. IF someone has done nothing wrong, then someone has nothing to fear, right?? What is the verse......

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


Our illustrious leader just broke out a scripture on AFF!






Wish there was more of that on AFF. If we had more of that we'd probably have less of the other nonsense. :shhh

[SDG]

4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions

1 Timothy 6:4 (NIV)

Dan,

Can't you find peace with this situation and just let people do what they are going to do? GC has ended and all this pointing fingers and making accusations has grown old.

Why don't you go out and do something fun with your kids today and forget about all this drama? I have always admired you brother and that hasn't changed.

God bless you...

We're heading out in an hour to ChuckyCheeses ... Chosen ... thanks for the suggestion *wink*

[stmatthew]

We're heading out in an hour to ChuckyCheeses ... Chosen ... thanks for the suggestion *wink*

Have a wonderful day, Bro. Enjoy those kids, as they grow up too fast not to. My 18 son is moving out in just a few weeks to be closer to college. :sad

[Cookin-with-Stoneking]

Well I am not sure about conspiracies, but it does seem that there was the proverbial "holding the cards close to the chest" going on.

Wish all these guys well, the UPCI will survive and even thrive!

[Rhymis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steadfast
The funny part? The AMF got it's original start in the Church I Pastor.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you have been misinformed.

[Sister Alvear]

I haven't had time or even been on the net due to my brother in law's death to read and catch up with the world of Pentecost..however we are the same...We love you folks and whatever camp you dwell in YOU are important to us! We pray for all involved.
I wish in my younger years I would have known just NOT to get involved and just be myself and be true to my heart, kind to my friends and extra kind to those that seem to not consider us their friends...life is short at the best...

I hope we can all live in such a manner when they close the coffin..the flowers fade...that our name even though we may have differed brings a smile and a sweet rememberance of something good we did for one another and for the Kingdom.

[Maple Leaf]

The sad fact is that you are mistaken in that you think you deserve to know when you are neither UPCI or conservative. Just to balance this out, I was not invited, but I do not care either.

This is the best think that has happened to Pennycost in a while. The conservatives and moderates/liberals are finally going to be able to move forward towards their prospective goals. Maybe, just maybe, they will each find the place God has called them to in this our, and work within their own convictions to the saving of souls.

I would beg to differ. I don't see how this mess can possibly be construed as "the best think that has happened to Pennycost in a while," or even as a good thing for that matter.

The proper definition of this debacle is "discord among brethren." The only question, and the answer will differ depending on perspective, is who has sown this discord. Surely no one believes that this discord is of God.

From an outsiders point of view, a viewpoint that is rarely valued, but paper won't refuse ink and the internet has not yet refused an opinion, this whole debate and division among God's people is not about holiness or evangelism, although it has elements of both intermixed in it, but this discord in the Body of Christ is about politics and power.

The combatants in this holy war believe:


God is One

The Bible is the Word of God

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only salvation under Heaven, given among men

That Acts 2:38 is the message for this day

Baptism in Jesus Name

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues

The operation of the Gifts of the Spirit

The Rapture of the Church

A Holiness lifestyle characterized by separation from the world unto God

A pledged alignment with a codified set of holiness standards



You would think that this shared set of beliefs would be enough to unify the brethren, but evidently not, the Body of Christ is to be divided over mint and anise and cummin.

Surely the angels must weep over the folly of men.

[Felicity]

I would beg to differ. I don't see how this mess can possibly be construed as "the best think that has happened to Pennycost in a while," or even as a good thing for that matter.

The proper definition of this debacle is "discord among brethren." The only question, and the answer will differ depending on perspective, is who has sown this discord. Surely no one believes that this discord is of God.

From an outsiders point of view, a viewpoint that is rarely valued, but paper won't refuse ink and the internet has not yet refused an opinion, this whole debate and division among God's people is not about holiness or evangelism, although it has elements of both intermixed in it, but this discord in the Body of Christ is about politics and power.

The combatants in this holy war believe:


God is One

The Bible is the Word of God

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only salvation under Heaven, given among men

That Acts 2:38 is the message for this day

Baptism in Jesus Name

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues

The operation of the Gifts of the Spirit

The Rapture of the Church

A Holiness lifestyle characterized by separation from the world unto God

A pledged alignment with a codified set of holiness standards



You would think that this shared set of beliefs would be enough to unify the brethren, but evidently not, the Body of Christ is to be divided over mint and anise and cummin.

Surely the angels must weep over the folly of men.Surely.

[RevDWW]

I would beg to differ. I don't see how this mess can possibly be construed as "the best think that has happened to Pennycost in a while," or even as a good thing for that matter.

The proper definition of this debacle is "discord among brethren." The only question, and the answer will differ depending on perspective, is who has sown this discord. Surely no one believes that this discord is of God.

From an outsiders point of view, a viewpoint that is rarely valued, but paper won't refuse ink and the internet has not yet refused an opinion, this whole debate and division among God's people is not about holiness or evangelism, although it has elements of both intermixed in it, but this discord in the Body of Christ is about politics and power.

The combatants in this holy war believe:


God is One

The Bible is the Word of God

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only salvation under Heaven, given among men

That Acts 2:38 is the message for this day

Baptism in Jesus Name

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues

The operation of the Gifts of the Spirit

The Rapture of the Church

A Holiness lifestyle characterized by separation from the world unto God

A pledged alignment with a codified set of holiness standards



You would think that this shared set of beliefs would be enough to unify the brethren, but evidently not, the Body of Christ is to be divided over mint and anise and cummin.

Surely the angels must weep over the folly of men.

WOW. Bring it brother!

[Sister Alvear]

some think if you differ on any little thing YOU are not IN the church!

[Pastor Keith]

I would beg to differ. I don't see how this mess can possibly be construed as "the best think that has happened to Pennycost in a while," or even as a good thing for that matter.

The proper definition of this debacle is "discord among brethren." The only question, and the answer will differ depending on perspective, is who has sown this discord. Surely no one believes that this discord is of God.

From an outsiders point of view, a viewpoint that is rarely valued, but paper won't refuse ink and the internet has not yet refused an opinion, this whole debate and division among God's people is not about holiness or evangelism, although it has elements of both intermixed in it, but this discord in the Body of Christ is about politics and power.

The combatants in this holy war believe:


God is One

The Bible is the Word of God

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only salvation under Heaven, given among men

That Acts 2:38 is the message for this day

Baptism in Jesus Name

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues

The operation of the Gifts of the Spirit

The Rapture of the Church

A Holiness lifestyle characterized by separation from the world unto God

A pledged alignment with a codified set of holiness standards



You would think that this shared set of beliefs would be enough to unify the brethren, but evidently not, the Body of Christ is to be divided over mint and anise and cummin.

Surely the angels must weep over the folly of men.

I agree with much of what you have said, did you see my comparison between what the Russian Orthodox Church was infighting about, how long their tassles were on their robes, while the worst political system spawned in Hell was unleashed on their country. God help us that we miss an opportunity because of nit picking.

[Rhymis]

some think if you differ on any little thing YOU are not IN the church!

SO where do YOU draw the line? :telephone

[Coonskinner]

SO where do YOU draw the line? :telephone

I am a Bluetick man.

I am disfellowshipping all the guys that hunt Redbones.

[Sister Alvear]

While I understand there are some things we will never change...others things are what we like or do like. In chosing friends we should be careful not to discard just for any ole reason...or because we have found a new crowd to run with that we know nothing about.
I am not saying to go along with something you feel is wrong but am saying to be in much prayer and make no decisions you will be sorry about tomorrow.

Please my dear friends pray much and do not speak without thinking. Love you folks. Mother Alvear

[mfblume]

What, again, does the U stand for in UPC?

[RevDWW]

I am a Bluetick man.

I am disfellowshipping all the guys that hunt Redbones.

Uh-Oh........now you've gone and done it! :killinme

[Rhymis]

I am a Bluetick man.

I am disfellowshipping all the guys that hunt Redbones.

The line between blue and red is only a good fence.

[Coonskinner]

If some get infractions, do others get outfractions?

[StillStanding]

I see no problem with men that feel disconnected from their heritage since the passing of res 4, getting together to form some kind of fellowship or minister association.

What I do have a problem with is open recruitment of current UPCI ministers. Isn't this proselyting????

Is this any different than a split happening in your church and they openly recruit your other members to join them?

What is the honorable thing to do???????

[Rhymis]

If some get infractions, do others get outfractions?

You are only 2/4s right.

[Rhymis]

I see no problem with men that feel disconnected from their heritage since the passing of res 4, getting together to form some kind of fellowship or minister association.

What I do have a problem with is open recruitment of current UPCI ministers. Isn't this proselyting????

Is this any different than a split happening in your church and they openly recruit your other members to join them?

What is the honorable thing to do???????

That's what I told the draft board.

[StillStanding]

That's what I told the draft board.
:killinme I got lucky as they stopped right before they got to me! :D

[Coonskinner]

I see no problem with men that feel disconnected from their heritage since the passing of res 4, getting together to form some kind of fellowship or minister association.

What I do have a problem with is open recruitment of current UPCI ministers. Isn't this proselyting????

Is this any different than a split happening in your church and they openly recruit your other members to join them?

What is the honorable thing to do???????

Pianoman, let's say it together:

"The UPC is not 'The Church,' and the DS is not the pastor of all the pastors in the district."

The analogy doesn't work.

[mfblume]

I agree with much of what you have said, did you see my comparison between what the Russian Orthodox Church was infighting about, how long their tassles were on their robes, while the worst political system spawned in Hell was unleashed on their country. God help us that we miss an opportunity because of nit picking.

WOW. What an analogy.

[StillStanding]

Pianoman, let's say it together:

"The UPC is not 'The Church,' and the DS is not the pastor of all the pastors in the district."

The analogy doesn't work.

How about THIS analogy?

You have a business and a few employees leave to start a competing business in town, Then they openly recruit other good employees of yours.

Their agenda is to do maximum damage to your business and send a strong message that they were fed up with your management style!

Is this an honorable thing to do?

I don't think so! I think the honorable thing to do is start a competing business, but only hire those that actively followed you and were also wanting to leave. To aggressively go after the employees that have not contacted you is plainly unethical!

[Rhymis]

How about THIS analogy?

You have a business and a few employees leave to start a competing business in town, Then they openly recruit other good employees of yours.

Their agenda is to do maximum damage to your business and send a strong message that they were fed up with your management style!

Is this an honorable thing to do?

I don't think so! I think the honorable thing to do is start a competing business, but only hire those that actively followed you and were also wanting to leave. To aggressively go after the employees that have not contacted you is plainly unethical!


Or what if you are a piano seller and someone steals all your KEY men??????? :sos

[StillStanding]

Or what if you are a piano seller and someone steals all your KEY men??????? :sos
:killinme That what I was thinking about when I wrote it! ha!

Actually we had a situation where a manager left to start a competing store across town. Everyone was kind of glad he left, so no other employees went with him! :)

[Rhymis]

:killinme That what I was thinking about when I wrote it! ha!

Actually we had a situation where a manager left to start a competing store across town. Everyone was kind of glad he left, so no other employees went with him! :)

He must have been a bass person. He had to go peddle his tune elsewhere solo.

[Praxeas]

4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions

1 Timothy 6:4 (NIV)

Dan,

Can't you find peace with this situation and just let people do what they are going to do? GC has ended and all this pointing fingers and making accusations has grown old.

Why don't you go out and do something fun with your kids today and forget about all this drama? I have always admired you brother and that hasn't changed.

God bless you...
TWO WORDS
DEVILS ADVOCATE
That's why.

[mfblume]

How about THIS analogy?

You have a business and a few employees leave to start a competing business in town, Then they openly recruit other good employees of yours.

Their agenda is to do maximum damage to your business and send a strong message that they were fed up with your management style!

Is this an honorable thing to do?

I don't think so! I think the honorable thing to do is start a competing business, but only hire those that actively followed you and were also wanting to leave. To aggressively go after the employees that have not contacted you is plainly unethical!

Amen, the analogy DOES work.

[Praxeas]

I would beg to differ. I don't see how this mess can possibly be construed as "the best think that has happened to Pennycost in a while," or even as a good thing for that matter.

The proper definition of this debacle is "discord among brethren." The only question, and the answer will differ depending on perspective, is who has sown this discord. Surely no one believes that this discord is of God.

From an outsiders point of view, a viewpoint that is rarely valued, but paper won't refuse ink and the internet has not yet refused an opinion, this whole debate and division among God's people is not about holiness or evangelism, although it has elements of both intermixed in it, but this discord in the Body of Christ is about politics and power.

The combatants in this holy war believe:

God is One
The Bible is the Word of God
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only salvation under Heaven, given among men
That Acts 2:38 is the message for this day
Baptism in Jesus Name
The Baptism of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues
The operation of the Gifts of the Spirit
The Rapture of the Church
A Holiness lifestyle characterized by separation from the world unto God
A pledged alignment with a codified set of holiness standards

You would think that this shared set of beliefs would be enough to unify the brethren, but evidently not, the Body of Christ is to be divided over mint and anise and cummin.

Surely the angels must weep over the folly of men.
I agree but I don't think there is any real reason for the discord...the strife and sectarianism. It's happening never the less. Who is to blame? "An enemy hath done this"

When the UPC first started it was two different groups with two different salvational views, though both believed in Acts 2:38. They did not, at that time, split into two different groups. They chanted "United, United, United" and agreed that they would "not contend for our differences to the disunity of the faith"..

After that resolution upon resolutions were added. Change was made and maybe in hindsight some are seeing those changes were wrong to begin with, ill conceived or just out dated. From my perspective the problem became a misplaced "love for the organization". Organization replaced brotherhood. Organization replaced The Church. Where once it was a means of organizing the brotherhood of Apostolics to be stronger....because we are stronger together than we are apart, so we can evangelist our world...it became bloated like any civil government, taking on too much, becoming too big, making more rules and seeking to control the people. We see what happens in the UPC happens in American politics as well..

For all our claims of being separate from the world I wonder if we are really closer than we realize.

[Praxeas]

How about THIS analogy?

You have a business and a few employees leave to start a competing business in town, Then they openly recruit other good employees of yours.

Their agenda is to do maximum damage to your business and send a strong message that they were fed up with your management style!

Is this an honorable thing to do?

I don't think so! I think the honorable thing to do is start a competing business, but only hire those that actively followed you and were also wanting to leave. To aggressively go after the employees that have not contacted you is plainly unethical!
P man, please tell us your son won't be flying in one of those Ospreys!

[UltraCon]

How about THIS analogy?

You have a business and a few employees leave to start a competing business in town, Then they openly recruit other good employees of yours.

Their agenda is to do maximum damage to your business and send a strong message that they were fed up with your management style!

Is this an honorable thing to do?

I don't think so! I think the honorable thing to do is start a competing business, but only hire those that actively followed you and were also wanting to leave. To aggressively go after the employees that have not contacted you is plainly unethical!

Again, this is a bad analogy. The agenda is not to do damage to the UPC. These men love the UPC and they will not say a bad word about it. They just will not stay and support the direction the org is going. Why is this a big deal? Can't you be happy that the the RES passed, is that not enough? Just go your way and let the guys that want to leave go there way. This has been talked about before and the high ups had to have known that this was coming with the passing of the RES. But I do know for a fact that the location in Tulsa and the meeting dates were NOT chosen until after GC. If you want to be honorable just stop all the wild accusations and let the men that want to leave go. Nobody is making anybody join the new org or fellowship or whateveer it turns out to be.

[MissBrattified]

If you want i'll try and get you DVD's of the services in Jan

ROFL! :heeheehee

[stmatthew]

I would beg to differ. I don't see how this mess can possibly be construed as "the best think that has happened to Pennycost in a while," or even as a good thing for that matter.

The proper definition of this debacle is "discord among brethren." The only question, and the answer will differ depending on perspective, is who has sown this discord. Surely no one believes that this discord is of God.

From an outsiders point of view, a viewpoint that is rarely valued, but paper won't refuse ink and the internet has not yet refused an opinion, this whole debate and division among God's people is not about holiness or evangelism, although it has elements of both intermixed in it, but this discord in the Body of Christ is about politics and power.

The combatants in this holy war believe:


God is One

The Bible is the Word of God

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only salvation under Heaven, given among men

That Acts 2:38 is the message for this day

Baptism in Jesus Name

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues

The operation of the Gifts of the Spirit

The Rapture of the Church

A Holiness lifestyle characterized by separation from the world unto God

A pledged alignment with a codified set of holiness standards



You would think that this shared set of beliefs would be enough to unify the brethren, but evidently not, the Body of Christ is to be divided over mint and anise and cummin.

Surely the angels must weep over the folly of men.

First of all I am not in the conservative camp per say, though I am probably conservative enough to be there. And I am not in the UPC camp, though I have attended and held leadership positions in UPC churches. So I am really looking at this from the outside in. It is only my prospective, and it is subject to rebutal, and could very well be wrong. But its my view.


Paul and Barnabas came to the point where for the work of the ministry to go forward there had to be a separation. We can argue and suppose all day who was right and who was wrong, but the point is these 2 ministers of the Gospel had to separate for peace to rule the day. They were man enough to realize that it just wasn't going to work anymore, as they had 2 different directions to go in. I would note that Barnabas was the one wanting to change what was established by bring John Mark along, after they had already gotten rid of him. Paul stood his ground, and had to leave because Barnabas refused not to bring John Mark back in. I could speak of Abraham and Lot, and their needed separation. But the question remains, "Was this all the work of the devil, or did God have a greater cause in their separation"?

Its ALL supposition on my part, but I DO believe that this is the best thing that could happen. The UPCI was already divided from within, and in the process neither side could reach their full potential. This dividing gives each more room to breath, and grow in their prospective convictions and understandings of holiness.

I have heard it stated a lot the this is about power and control. I do not really believe that to be the case. I think it is about conviction. Lets face it, we all draw a line somewhere in the sand, whether conservative , moderate, or liberal. Is it about power, or control?? Or are there just issues we each feel strong enough about that we refuse to cross the line for the sake of "unity"? Any unity that is reached by forsaking ones personal convictions is not a true unity, but a destroying of ones conscience, and will ultimately cause more damage than good.

Just my ramblings.... :driving

[J-Roc]

PP,

Praying for you. :thumbsup

You're going to need it for exposing hypocrisy. :drama



Daniel, has Mizpeh joined forces with you and become a maverick...I dont recall her ever being this upset over a poor attitude. Seems like she is an ultralib on this one. Keep up the good work, Mizpeh! :tiphat

[Kansas Preacher]

As I have said I have no problem with men leaving the UPC out of conviction and forming their own org. reflecting their conservative views.

However this morning I did think of a question. Are any of the men organizing this meeting ones who were part of the committee that presented the anti TV position in the Forward magazine and pledged not to leave the UPC if their position did not prevail?

I haven't finished reading this thread, so it may have already been addressed, but I know most of the men who were on the "anti-TV-advertising" side. No such question was ever put to them, and NONE of them ever made such a pledge. It was later reported that their commitment to remain was a factor in being chosen, but I can tell you that the "commitment" was only assumed by the one choosing them.

[J-Roc]

Does the constant lying not bother you guys?


or have you just become accustomed to it?


Some are already desensitized....what you have described as the Borg Mentality in the past.

[Kansas Preacher]

This board seems to have a real problem with truthfulness, and it's getting old. A couple of the men who are claiming this is just a conspiracy theory have already made plans to attend the conference that Daniel mentioned.

That, my friends, is outright lying.

The FACT is, there is a meeting scheduled, the main players have revealed themselves, and it will be advertised soon.

So why lie?
Why act like it's a conspiracy?
Why act as though talking about it is childish and ignorant?

Look, this is A BIG DEAL.

Please, stop with the lying. You people lose all credibility when you pull this crud. It's sickening.

Oh, and then you want to whine to everyone else about lying on the Affirmation Statement?

What you gentlemen need to do is pray through.

Now ban me if you want, but please, stop with the lying!
I am not certain to whom you refer, but I can assure you that, when all of this started, I had no idea there really was a meeting in the plans. The first time it was reported, they said it was happening in Branson. They named Larry Booker, Crawford Coon, and Joel Holmes as heading up the meeting, and stated this meeting was to form a new organization. Since I was invited to the Branson meeting, I knew that was not the case.

Again, I sincerely did not know of ANY meeting scheduled ANYWHERE that was being called to start a new organization. Thus, I never lied. AFTER denying that the Branson meeting was what they were charging, I learned of the meeting now scheduled for Tulsa.

No liar here.

[J-Roc]

Steadfast's posts trouble me.

I have both heard and viewed enough dialogue from elsewhere to tell me that his posts on this thread are, at the very least, disengenuous.

I say this as a matter of fact - not supposition.



Wag the dog?

[Old Paths]

The funny part? The AMF got it's original start in the Church I Pastor.



Elder, WHO was the pastor back then?

[stmatthew]

AS ADMIN AND OWNER

Folk the rules are very plain, and admin have errored on the side of mercy in holding members to them. But openly accusing admin of censorship, or any other thing for that manner is going to stop. If you don't like this FREE forum that has been provided for you, then shop elsewhere. The constant tearing down, and the venom and hateful bad attitudes are not welcome here anymore, and if it means I am left talking to myself, they will go.

IF you have a problem with admins decisions, you need to take it to pm or email. NO other forum would have been as patient as we have been on this rule. But today it ends.

I hope everyone understands very plainly what I have written, because ALL admin want this place to be a place where discussion can take place without always having to deal with junk.


Bumping for the late comers

[J-Roc]

All I have ever said, when I have said anything, was that until just a couple of days ago, I had no personal knowledge apart from some unsubstantiated rumors that I don't know whether to take seriously or not.

The meeting in Tulsa I did hear about, I think either Wednesday or Thursday.

Maybe Tuesday, but not before that.

But I'm not exactly in the inner circle on this stuff.


I think CS is vindicated...he's gone through great pains to guard his name. He deserves a pass. :tiphat "Let your yes be yes...."


2 Corinthians 8 "We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift. For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men. "

[Old Paths]

Bro. Matt

THANKS!