The Fallout Continues

[Charlie Brown]

I received word that a District Superintendent stated today that he was "shaken to his soul" because so many churches nationwide are disaffiliating from the UPCI. Whole sections are disaffiliating all over the country. It is said that TLC, who has been UPC for over 50 years, is turning in his card. The DS stated, "it's much bigger than anyone thought!"

I have not verified this, so it is to be taken that way.

[seguidordejesus]

I received word that a District Superintendent stated today that he was "shaken to his soul" because so many churches nationwide are disaffiliating from the UPCI. Whole sections are disaffiliating all over the country. It is said that TLC, who has been UPC for over 50 years, is turning in his card. The DS stated, "it's much bigger than anyone thought!"

I have not verified this, so it is to be taken that way.

I'd have to see that to believe it!

[StillStanding]

I'd have to see that to believe it!
I heard from another source that TLC and 1st Church are pulling out! It's almost like a frenzy right now!

Of course, my opinion is that it's for the best in the long run for the health of the UPCI! :)

[vrblackwell]

I received word that a District Superintendent stated today that he was "shaken to his soul" because so many churches nationwide are disaffiliating from the UPCI. Whole sections are disaffiliating all over the country. It is said that TLC, who has been UPC for over 50 years, is turning in his card. The DS stated, "it's much bigger than anyone thought!"

I have not verified this, so it is to be taken that way.


He and I talked for 2 hrs at GC before the vote. He told me that he would have supported a resolution that allowed the ORG to run commercials. He also told me that he would not leave the UPC over this. So unless he has changed, and I doubt it, this is not true.

[Old Paths]

Wonderful!

Men are following their convictions.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

He and I talked for 2 hrs at GC before the vote. He told me that he would have supported a resolution that allowed the ORG to run commercials. He also told me that he would not leave the UPC over this. So unless he has changed, and I doubt it, this is not true.

Aha! Daniel Alicea was right!

There WAS a secret regrouping meeting.

:hypercoffee


j/k vrblackwell- Thanks for settling yet ANOTHER rumor.

[Praxeas]

Wonderful!

Men are following their convictions.
Let's pray that they can be objective....not all convictions are right or good for us.

[Steve Epley]

I am shocked at men I am hearing are leaving I never thought some would leave I am a lousy prophet. A friend and myself discussed it and neither of us thought very many would leave. It is encouraging that some will follow their convictions even when it costs them dearly.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I am shocked at men I am hearing are leaving I never thought some would leave I am a lousy prophet. A friend and myself discussed it and neither of us thought very many would leave. It is encouraging that some will follow their convictions even when it costs them dearly.

I thought it, Bro. I saw it coming and more.

[The Shadow]

I am shocked at men I am hearing are leaving I never thought some would leave I am a lousy prophet. A friend and myself discussed it and neither of us thought very many would leave. It is encouraging that some will follow their convictions even when it costs them dearly.

How many are you hearing that is leaving. At first, I thought that 200 leaving would be a high number, but now I am beginning to think that 200 may be a low number. Alot of men that I did not know would leave are leaving.

Today, at the restraunt, a UPC man walked up to us and said he is getting out over this tv advertising issue. One would be hard pressed to go to any of his saints homes and NOT find a tv in them. We were shocked to say the least. This man is not considered conservative by any means of the imagination.

...and people just thought that the Shadow knows all.

[Rhymis]

I think I will join so I can leave.

[Timmy]

What if everyone left?

[stmatthew]

I would be interested in knowing the actual numbers as to how many churches are disaffiliating. Is it really that many, as CB has alluded to in the first post??

[Hoovie]

I would be interested in knowing the actual numbers as to how many churches are disaffiliating. Is it really that many, as CB has alluded to in the first post??

I would not be surprised at large numbers disaffiliating. Remember though, this does not mean these will all leave - or that cards will in fact be turned in. It does leave a few more options open though when the church and pastor are in agreement.

I would dare say the HQ attorneys are working overtime with questions and legal concerns about now.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I would be interested in knowing the actual numbers as to how many churches are disaffiliating. Is it really that many, as CB has alluded to in the first post??

I heard the $25 cover charge at GC was not enough and the drop in booksales left PPH with a deficit.

Seems Spanish Literature is no mas.

I have heard of a price increase for the books no one is now buying. Makes a great business model. You are not selling, so you raise prices.......

And my Pentecostal Herald is 3 months late every issue.

Is it me being tired or am I missing something fundamental with this math?

:2cents

[stmatthew]

I would not be surprised at large numbers disaffiliating. Remember though, this does not mean these will all leave - or that cards will in fact be turned in. It does leave a few more options open though when the church and pastor are in agreement.

I would dare say the HQ attorneys are working overtime with questions and legal concerns about now.

I agree, but do feel a lot of those are taking precautionary measures to insure their local flock will not be found out in the cold. It is all supposition on our part at present. I think time will tell the tale of the toll this "yes" vote will cost. I believe the org is forever changed because of it. And I still think it was the best thing that could happen in the long run, as it frees men to follow their convictions, and move forward instead of always being in gridlock with the opposing side.

[Rico]

Maybe churches are disaffiliating as a precautionary measure, just in case things get out of hand and the pastor feels the need to leave the organization in the future. Disaffiliating does not necessarily mean the pastor is turning his card in.

[Coonskinner]

It is a reflection of distrust in he direction of the org.

[Barb]

It is a reflection of distrust in the direction of the org.

CS, I have been away for a few days and offline. As I have neither time nor inclination for treading through threads for info, how widespread is this?!

On Thursday when I last read, it seemed that a lot was rumor...is it now fact?!

[Coonskinner]

CS, I have been away for a few days and offline. As I have neither time nor inclination for treading through threads for info, how widespread is this?!

On Thursday when I last read, it seemed that a lot was rumor...is it now fact?!


Sister, it is very widespread, far more than most thought it would be.

This was quite a thing...for the first time, the UPC totally reversed a stand on separation.

This has caused a LOT of men to lose trust in the organization. It isn'tonly the issue--it is the willingness of the majority to remove a landmark. When you've done it once, it's easier to do it again.

[mizpeh]

Sister, it is very widespread, far more than most thought it would be.

This was quite a thing...for the first time, the UPC totally reversed a stand on separation.

This has caused a LOT of men to lose trust in the organization. It isn'tonly the issue--it is the willingness of the majority to remove a landmark. When you've done it once, it's easier to do it again.

CS, is this really the first time for a major upheaval in the org? Why was there not a mistrust in the org with the AS, even among conservatives? The AS was a HUGE reversal of the original intent of the formation of the org which included two bodies, PCI and PAJC. The AS caused one set of believers to be left out in the cold. Why did any liberals stay in the org after the signing of the AS as their trust was betrayed? Maybe they stayed hoping to make it a better org in the long run. Are all the cons are packing up ship so quickly. Hopefully some will stay and have their voices continued to be heard.

This resolution is not condoning general TV viewing but it is allowing the UPC to air their version of Christianity to the lost who watch TV. Does the UPC AOF forbid TV? Disapproval is not the same as forbid.

So who is betraying who? The TV resolution does not go against the AOF.

[Hoovie]

I agree, but do feel a lot of those are taking precautionary measures to insure their local flock will not be found out in the cold. It is all supposition on our part at present. I think time will tell the tale of the toll this "yes" vote will cost. I believe the org is forever changed because of it. And I still think it was the best thing that could happen in the long run, as it frees men to follow their convictions, and move forward instead of always being in gridlock with the opposing side.

On this I agree.

[Sister Alvear]

I heard some missionaries were getting out...just hearsay though...I am afraid many souls will be destroyed...I am praying for God to guide each person the way they should go...He does know what is best for all of us.
I have never belonged but I feel for those that are hurt.

[stmatthew]

CS, is this really the first time for a major upheaval in the org? Why was there not a mistrust in the org with the AS, even among conservatives? The AS was a HUGE reversal of the original intent of the formation of the org which included two bodies, PCI and PAJC. The AS caused one set of believers to be left out in the cold. Why did any liberals stay in the org after the signing of the AS as their trust was betrayed? Maybe they stayed hoping to make it a better org in the long run. Are all the cons are packing up ship so quickly. Hopefully some will stay and have their voices continued to be heard.

This resolution is not condoning general TV viewing but it is allowing the UPC to air their version of Christianity to the lost who watch TV. Does the UPC AOF forbid TV? Disapproval is not the same as forbid.

So who is betraying who? The TV resolution does not go against the AOF.

I think the issue is that the org has always been a holiness org, and the AS upheld this. What has happened now is that something that many holiness minded folks see as a door of worldly influence, has been "officially" opened, officially being the key word.. While no one is foolish enough to believe that many had tv in their homes, the official stance being changed now changes, in many eye's, the direction of the org as far as holiness goes.

[Barb]

Sister, it is very widespread, far more than most thought it would be.

This was quite a thing...for the first time, the UPC totally reversed a stand on separation.

This has caused a LOT of men to lose trust in the organization. It isn't only the issue--it is the willingness of the majority to remove a landmark. When you've done it once, it's easier to do it again.

Thank you for your response, CS, and the sincerity with which it was posted.

I feel your heart, Elder C, and am praying for y'all...:praying

[mizpeh]

I think the issue is that the org has always been a holiness org, and the AS upheld this. What has happened now is that something that many holiness minded folks see as a door of worldly influence, has been "officially" opened, officially being the key word.. While no one is foolish enough to believe that many had tv in their homes, the official stance being changed now changes, in many eye's, the direction of the org as far as holiness goes.

Matt,

From what I understand the AS upholds the Aof. The Aof doesn't condemn having a TV in a members home. It strongly disapproves of it but doesn't condemn it as a sin. I would say resolution 4 is the UPC being CONSISTENT with its Aof.

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/issues/affirmation/yearly.html
http://www.spiritualabuse.org/aof.html

I tried looking for the Aof and the AS on the official web site of the UPC and couldn't find them there.

[Praxeas]

Maybe the absolute "No TV at all, no possessing, no advertisement, no watching ever...even things that are not sin" was wrong to begin with.

We should take a stand against all ungodliness, even the stuff that is on the Internet, and not instead just legislate not using or owning the medium such as computers or TVs

[Mosby48]

I would be interested in knowing the actual numbers as to how many churches are disaffiliating. Is it really that many, as CB has alluded to in the first post??
My question is "What does being affiliated mean"? What restrictions does this place on the Church? I know the Churches listed in the manual with an asterick by their name are affiliated, but I can't find out what effect this has on a pastor who does or does not pull out.

[Praxeas]

BTW I do recall there was a big "exodus" (or should I say rumor of one, though some did end up leaving) of UPCs and UPC ministers and even missionaries over the A/S issue too....many of those people felt betrayed and forced into a corner of which they could not in their conscious agree to a Roman Catholic like oath or creedal agreement that we NEVER had before.

[stmatthew]

The articles does condemn tv as an instrument of worldliness that could lead to spiritual deprivation. Thus while they do not mandate it as a law, it is completely disapproved of. With the acceptance of tv as a viable means of outreach, very few would argue that it opens the door to eventually strike tv from the manual completely, thus what many feel is a fatal blow to holiness itself. Thus the direction of the UPCI and its holiness stand within the articles of faith HAS changed.

I think if you will look at it from the view of a conservative, you will see that it is viewed as the beginning of the end for holiness within the org.

We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and Godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make-up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music. Furthermore, because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.

[stmatthew]

BTW I do recall there was a big "exodus" (or should I say rumor of one, though some did end up leaving) of UPCs and UPC ministers and even missionaries over the A/S issue too....many of those people felt betrayed and forced into a corner of which they could not in their conscious agree to a Roman Catholic like oath or creedal agreement that we NEVER had before.

Prax, the only thing the A/S did was have the minister state that he still held the views of the ORG. It changed nothing in the manual itself. Totally different fruit.

[stmatthew]

My question is "What does being affiliated mean"? What restrictions does this place on the Church? I know the Churches listed in the manual with an asterick by their name are affiliated, but I can't find out what effect this has on a pastor who does or does not pull out.

Someone smarter than me will have to answer this one.

[Hoovie]

The articles does condemn tv as an instrument of worldliness that could lead to spiritual deprivation. Thus while they do not mandate it as a law, it is completely disapproved of. With the acceptance of tv as a viable means of outreach, very few would argue that it opens the door to eventually strike tv from the manual completely, thus what many feel is a fatal blow to holiness itself. Thus the direction of the UPCI and its holiness stand within the articles of faith HAS changed.

I think if you will look at it from the view of a conservative, you will see that it is viewed as the beginning of the end for holiness within the org.

Which is unfortunate if true. It should be viewed as an extension of using wisdom in technology - which is something even the UCs are doing in their own lives.

[stmatthew]

Which is unfortunate if true. It should be viewed as an extension of using wisdom in technology - which is something even the UCs are doing in their own lives.


If you read only the bolded part, it could be seen that way. But given that an Article of Faith dealing with holiness is now in question because of this passage, it changes the view a little.

[timlan2057]

You know what I find that makes me shake my head slowly in amusement when I read these threads on this subject?

I think back to my debating days.

Now Epley ... you never had this problem.

But UPC debaters like Welch, Hicks, Cannon, Ferguson, Bayer, me and on and on heard from Church of Christ debaters about our "creed" - that we revered the manual as much or sometimes more than the Bible.

Now Church of Christ debaters like Woods, Sutton, Reynolds, Hafley etc. sometimes went to extremes by saying we equaled the manual to the Book of Mormon.

I refuted it passionately.

But when I read all these grave and awesome pronouncements over "The Articles of Faith" or "removing a landmark" because a majority of UPC preachers finally decided to join the 20th century when the world is now in the 21st -

I think I'll look up Carl Allen when I'm in Lufkin next time if he's at a nursing home somewhere and if I ever make it to Renda's for that homecooked meal I'm going to go stand at Guy Woods' grave around Halladay, Tennessee ...

... and I'm going to apologize to those Church of Christ debaters.


Turns out they were right all along.

[Praxeas]

Prax, the only thing the A/S did was have the minister state that he still held the views of the ORG. It changed nothing in the manual itself. Totally different fruit.
The agreement, at first, limited the freedom to even discuss it or debate it. Beside that, some just in their conscious as a conviction, as I stated already, do NOT agree with the idea of signing pledges or having oaths like that...creeds etc etc. It also stifles the search for truth. Maybe we have been wrong on certain things? At one time we realized we were wrong on the Trinity and found Oneness. Some are against the idea of clamping down on progress and change and even to the point of trying to control how we think

Some left over that A/S.

In fact I even heard of a certain Pastor that went to another church where the pastor there would not sign the agreement, and had a knock down drag out in the parking lot where the congregation was enticed to leave. Never mind that the pastor that did not sigh the agreement was not in opposition to standards

[stmatthew]

Let me clarify by saying I am not UPCI, and have no intentions of being such.


I feel that this is the best thing that has happened for BOTH sides of the spectrum. The dividing of these to irreconcilable factions is GOOD! Both now have the opportunity to move in the directions their convictions allow them. I guess there is probably a lot of loss felt by those that have their lives in the UPCI, and were against tv. But overall, it is a new day, and each has the chance now to shine.

[Praxeas]

Let me clarify by saying I am not UPCI, and have no intentions of being such.


I feel that this is the best thing that has happened for BOTH sides of the spectrum. The dividing of these to irreconcilable factions is GOOD! Both now have the opportunity to move in the directions their convictions allow them. I guess there is probably a lot of loss felt by those that have their lives in the UPCI, and were against tv. But overall, it is a new day, and each has the chance now to shine.
I don't see anything in Res #4 that prevents any faction from moving in the direction of their convictions.

That has been the problem I have been pointing out. The UPC in purpose was about uniting Oneness Apostolics to a stronger fellowship so we can evangelize the world. An alliance. But it because just another political beast like every other org and government with rules and regulations and position seekers and power mongers and bloated budgets

[stmatthew]

You know what I find that makes me shake my head slowly in amusement when I read these threads on this subject?

I think back to my debating days.

Now Epley ... you never had this problem.

But UPC debaters like Welch, Hicks, Cannon, Ferguson, Bayer, me and on and on heard from Church of Christ debaters about our "creed" - that we revered the manual as much or sometimes more than the Bible.

Now Church of Christ debaters like Woods, Sutton, Reynolds, Hafley etc. sometimes went to extremes by saying we equaled the manual to the Book of Mormon.

I refuted it passionately.

But when I read all these grave and awesome pronouncements over "The Articles of Faith" or "removing a landmark" because a majority of UPC preachers finally decided to join the 20th century when the world is now in the 21st -

I think I'll look up Carl Allen when I'm in Lufkin next time if he's at a nursing home somewhere and if I ever make it to Renda's for that homecooked meal I'm going to go stand at Guy Woods' grave around Halladay, Tennessee ...

... and I'm going to apologize to those Church of Christ debaters.


Turns out they were right all along.



Tim,

I am no match for a Wordsmith like you. But I think its unfair to say that the Manual is looked at as equal to the bible. Maybe some DO see it that way, but the majority do not. The fact is that we are arguing the issues of an organization which is political, and not biblical, though they attempt to uphold scripture in their bylaws. If I was going to argue tv from a totally biblical perspective, my stance would be a lot different, because I think ultimately it is a conviction of the heart that brings a person into a right relationship with Jesus, and not a set of political bylaws from an organization.

BTW - It is nice to see you visiting some.

[stmatthew]

I don't see anything in Res #4 that prevents any faction from moving in the direction of their convictions.

That has been the problem I have been pointing out. The UPC in purpose was about uniting Oneness Apostolics to a stronger fellowship so we can evangelize the world. An alliance. But it because just another political beast like every other org and government with rules and regulations and position seekers and power mongers and bloated budgets

Prax, what is probably the funniest thing here is that I am arguing the con UPC side when I am not UPC, and while I probably lean to the con side allow a few things that they would not allow. So understand I am probably not a strong conservative voice to debate this with.

The issue that in the libs (in good conscience) using tv for outreach, they are using a vehicle that the cons in good conscience cannot allow, thus a division is born. It is not about power. It is not about control. It is about conscience. For anyone to continue to claim this is the reason shows that they simply do not see BOTH sides of the issue. I guess maybe because I am an outsider, it is easier for me to "hear" the voices coming from both sides, and have a balanced view. Not suggesting that my view is the only right view, and it may even be the wrong view, but I think it is a sensible view.

[James Griffin]

You know what I find that makes me shake my head slowly in amusement when I read these threads on this subject?

I think back to my debating days.

Now Epley ... you never had this problem.

But UPC debaters like Welch, Hicks, Cannon, Ferguson, Bayer, me and on and on heard from Church of Christ debaters about our "creed" - that we revered the manual as much or sometimes more than the Bible.

Now Church of Christ debaters like Woods, Sutton, Reynolds, Hafley etc. sometimes went to extremes by saying we equaled the manual to the Book of Mormon.

I refuted it passionately.

But when I read all these grave and awesome pronouncements over "The Articles of Faith" or "removing a landmark" because a majority of UPC preachers finally decided to join the 20th century when the world is now in the 21st -

I think I'll look up Carl Allen when I'm in Lufkin next time if he's at a nursing home somewhere and if I ever make it to Renda's for that homecooked meal I'm going to go stand at Guy Woods' grave around Halladay, Tennessee ...

... and I'm going to apologize to those Church of Christ debaters.


Turns out they were right all along.

:sshhh:sshhh

[James Griffin]

Tim,

I am no match for a Wordsmith like you. But I think its unfair to say that the Manual is looked at as equal to the bible. Maybe some DO see it that way, but the majority do not. The fact is that we are arguing the issues of an organization which is political, and not biblical, though they attempt to uphold scripture in their bylaws. If I was going to argue tv from a totally biblical perspective, my stance would be a lot different, because I think ultimately it is a conviction of the heart that brings a person into a right relationship with Jesus, and not a set of political bylaws from an organization.

BTW - It is nice to see you visiting some.

I would have to agree with my fellow JCMer.

What we are now calling the "conservative" faction, still hold what was by far the majority viewpoint 20-30 years ago. "The standards" were elevated not only to be on par with holy writ, but even more, they defined a distinctive culture. Part of the "division" is involved in lamenting the passing of that culture. Change is never without discomfort, for some more than others.

[mizpeh]

Sounds similar to what the Pharisees did with their traditions of men.

[Praxeas]

The issue that in the libs (in good conscience) using tv for outreach, they are using a vehicle that the cons in good conscience cannot allow, thus a division is born. It is not about power. It is not about control. It is about conscience. For anyone to continue to claim this is the reason shows that they simply do not see BOTH sides of the issue. I guess maybe because I am an outsider, it is easier for me to "hear" the voices coming from both sides, and have a balanced view. Not suggesting that my view is the only right view, and it may even be the wrong view, but I think it is a sensible view.
But see that is the thing again...the cons are NOT forced to use it. I hear both sides. However just because someone is for using TV does not make them a liberal.

Disagreement or different points of view does NOT have to be divisive...it's only divisive if one wants it to be.

No one's conscious is being imposed on. See that is what I mean by some viewing the org as something it was not meant to be. A NO TV rule imposes on everyone. No rule on TV does not impose on anyone. As it is UPC pastors have been preaching rules and regulations NOT found in any UPC manual

[COOPER]

I am shocked at men I am hearing are leaving I never thought some would leave I am a lousy prophet. A friend and myself discussed it and neither of us thought very many would leave. It is encouraging that some will follow their convictions even when it costs them dearly.

They are fighting the will of God.

....But then God is weeding his Church.

Praise Jesus!:driving

[ApostolicTexas]

I am shocked at men I am hearing are leaving I never thought some would leave I am a lousy prophet. A friend and myself discussed it and neither of us thought very many would leave. It is encouraging that some will follow their convictions even when it costs them dearly.

Is it still encouraging to know some have left for the conviction of fulfilled prophecy and it has cost them too? :)

[ApostolicTexas]

But see that is the thing again...the cons are NOT forced to use it. I hear both sides. However just because someone is for using TV does not make them a liberal.

Disagreement or different points of view does NOT have to be divisive...it's only divisive if one wants it to be.

No one's conscious is being imposed on. See that is what I mean by some viewing the org as something it was not meant to be. A NO TV rule imposes on everyone. No rule on TV does not impose on anyone. As it is UPC pastors have been preaching rules and regulations NOT found in any UPC manual


uhh umm...amen

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

My question is "What does being affiliated mean"? What restrictions does this place on the Church? I know the Churches listed in the manual with an asterick by their name are affiliated, but I can't find out what effect this has on a pastor who does or does not pull out.

if a Pastor of an affilated church resigns, the District Sup becomes the Pastor within the guidelines of either the local bylaws or the national bylaws.

If a Pastor leaves the org and has anyone licensed in the church, those licensed must attend the nearest UPC church. Any licensed minister must sever all contact with any members of the former church.

Affliated churches have a place, but the mass exodus is collapsing some kingdoms that should have never been there and on the other side are seeing both Conservative and Liberal Pastors looking for alternatives.

:driving

[COOPER]

But see that is the thing again...the cons are NOT forced to use it. I hear both sides. However just because someone is for using TV does not make them a liberal.

Disagreement or different points of view does NOT have to be divisive...it's only divisive if one wants it to be.

No one's conscious is being imposed on. See that is what I mean by some viewing the org as something it was not meant to be. A NO TV rule imposes on everyone. No rule on TV does not impose on anyone.


uhh umm...amen

Words of wisdom grass hopper!

[CC1]

If it is true TLC is turning in his card then I am truly amazed. That does not seem like him at all.

He is not reactionary. At most I could see him having misgivings but waiting to see what happens in the future.

I also wonder about this because Chris Craft is the new Pastor of FPC and I can't imagine him thinking leaving the UPC over this would be a good idea.

[Sam]

...
If a Pastor leaves the org and has anyone licensed in the church, those licensed must attend the nearest UPC church. Any licensed minister must sever all contact with any members of the former church.
...


If a pastor of an affiliated church leaves the organization, and the Dist. Supt. becomes the pastor by default, why would licensed ministers in that local church have to go elsewhere?

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

If a pastor of an affiliated church leaves the organization, and the Dist. Supt. becomes the pastor by default, why would licensed ministers in that local church have to go elsewhere?

WHat happens to the church property if a church votes to become UNaffiliated? If the majority wants to pull out?

[Margies3]

if a Pastor of an affilated church resigns, the District Sup becomes the Pastor within the guidelines of either the local bylaws or the national bylaws.

If a Pastor leaves the org and has anyone licensed in the church, those licensed must attend the nearest UPC church. Any licensed minister must sever all contact with any members of the former church.

Affliated churches have a place, but the mass exodus is collapsing some kingdoms that should have never been there and on the other side are seeing both Conservative and Liberal Pastors looking for alternatives.

:driving

Isn't that shunning? Sounds very Amish-like to me :(

[triumphant1]

WHat happens to the church property if a church votes to become UNaffiliated? If the majority wants to pull out?

ONe more time...

If the church is affiliated, and the pastor loses or turns in his license, he cannot pastor that church any more and must vacate the property. The church then would be "overseen" by the district until a new UPC preacher is voted in.

If the church is NOT affiliated, it matters not whether the pastor is licensed UPC or not. If the pastor loses or turns in his license, and the church is fine with that, they simply become an independent church...because in a church that is NOT affiliated, the only thing that makes it a UPC church is the UPC licensed pastor....

So, although the UPC claims no authority over the autonomous churches...they do leverage some control in the affiliated churches because those churches MUST BE pastored by a UPC preacher...but in the non-affiliated churches, there is NOTHING stopping the preacher from leaving the org other than the wishes of the congregation itself...because the district can't do one thing to them if he chooses to leave.

[Margies3]

I don't understand.............

If the rules say no one should have a tv or advertise on tv or whatever, then everybody is expected to abide by that rule.

On the other hand, if the rules say that it is OK to have a tv or advertise on a tv, then that doesn't mean you HAVE to have a tv or advertise on one.

So if someone doesn't like the new ruling allowing more freedom, all they would have to do is hold fast to the old ways on a personal level. They might be allowed, but they are forced to do it.

So why the need to leave over it?????

[philjones]

If it is true TLC is turning in his card then I am truly amazed. That does not seem like him at all.

He is not reactionary. At most I could see him having misgivings but waiting to see what happens in the future.

I also wonder about this because Chris Craft is the new Pastor of FPC and I can't imagine him thinking leaving the UPC over this would be a good idea.

CC1,

Chris Craft is VERY close to Bro. Odum, one of the oranizers of the Tulsa convocation.

Also, keep in mind that TLC "retired" to Bro. Nate Wilson's Rock Church in CA.

These facts might give some credence to the assertion of Linus and Lucy's friend CB.:)

[pelathais]

I don't understand.............

If the rules say no one should have a tv or advertise on tv or whatever, then everybody is expected to abide by that rule.

On the other hand, if the rules say that it is OK to have a tv or advertise on a tv, then that doesn't mean you HAVE to have a tv or advertise on one.

So if someone doesn't like the new ruling allowing more freedom, all they would have to do is hold fast to the old ways on a personal level. They might be allowed, but they are forced to do it.

So why the need to leave over it?????
Personally, I think it's a matter of "proving" one's salvation. When you've failed to place your trust in the cross and work of Jesus Christ but instead have adopted a theology of "works," then you can never really do enough to be saved.

We have this (for want of a better word) "spirit" in our movement whereby some people have always felt that a part of their walk with God was running down their brethren. This practice seemed to placate the nagging doubts that they were not doing enough to deserve their salvation. So you run down someone who doesn't share the same views and opinions on every issue that you do. Then you go to a meeting where the preacher runs the same group of people into the ground- your subjective feelings are now "confirmed" in a tangible fashion and you rejoice: you are "saved." And the cycle continues.

Every group that fails to put all of their hope and confidence in the work of Jesus Christ will from time to time, bite, consume and devour one another. It's inevitable.

[Steve Epley]

You know what I find that makes me shake my head slowly in amusement when I read these threads on this subject?

I think back to my debating days.

Now Epley ... you never had this problem.

But UPC debaters like Welch, Hicks, Cannon, Ferguson, Bayer, me and on and on heard from Church of Christ debaters about our "creed" - that we revered the manual as much or sometimes more than the Bible.

Now Church of Christ debaters like Woods, Sutton, Reynolds, Hafley etc. sometimes went to extremes by saying we equaled the manual to the Book of Mormon.

I refuted it passionately.

But when I read all these grave and awesome pronouncements over "The Articles of Faith" or "removing a landmark" because a majority of UPC preachers finally decided to join the 20th century when the world is now in the 21st -

I think I'll look up Carl Allen when I'm in Lufkin next time if he's at a nursing home somewhere and if I ever make it to Renda's for that homecooked meal I'm going to go stand at Guy Woods' grave around Halladay, Tennessee ...

... and I'm going to apologize to those Church of Christ debaters.


Turns out they were right all along.

When they were debating the Campbellites I would cringe BECAUSE what was being said had some merit to it. In one of my debates the guy tried to bring the same stuff up. I told he was NOT debating a UPC preacher he was debating me and honestly me and the UPC preacher might debate over some of that.:killinme You have a point.

[RevDWW]

When they were debating the Campbellites I would cringe BECAUSE what was being said had some merit to it. In one of my debates the guy tried to bring the same stuff up. I told he was NOT debating a UPC preacher he was debating me and honestly me and the UPC preacher might debate over some of that.:killinme You have a point.

Could it be that some have transformed their "landmarks" into idols?

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Chambers years ago at a meeting declared holding the Bible in one hand and the manual in the other said the church shall be governed by these two books.(Or something very similiar.) I forget the exact words.

[freeatlast]

Bro. Chambers years ago at a meeting declared holding the Bible in one hand and the manual in the other said the church shall be governed by these two books.(Or something very similiar.) I forget the exact words.

Some seem to hold the manual up a little higher than their bible.

[CC1]

CC1,

Chris Craft is VERY close to Bro. Odum, one of the oranizers of the Tulsa convocation.

Also, keep in mind that TLC "retired" to Bro. Nate Wilson's Rock Church in CA.

These facts might give some credence to the assertion of Linus and Lucy's friend CB.:)

Good point about TLC's relationship in recent years with NW. I don't know anything about CC but I am surprised he is that conservative.

This possible situation has had me thinking. If a church like FPC that has been a very visible high profile UPC church for a long time was to leave the UPC I think the congregation would have a problem with that unless there was another similar entity to take its place. That may be why the conservative organizers want to get this new org. going fairly quickly. It could be a comfort zone for congregations used to being a part of an org. for a long time.

[Steve Epley]

Good point about TLC's relationship in recent years with NW. I don't know anything about CC but I am surprised he is that conservative.

This possible situation has had me thinking. If a church like FPC that has been a very visible high profile UPC church for a long time was to leave the UPC I think the congregation would have a problem with that unless there was another similar entity to take its place. That may be why the conservative organizers want to get this new org. going fairly quickly. It could be a comfort zone for congregations used to being a part of an org. for a long time.

CC1 I think that is point men who have lived forever inside the confines of an organization do not think they can exist without being in something so that is the reason for the quick move on the part of these brethren. It is a strange concept to men like myself but I understand them. The next few months are going to be interesting to say the least.

[Rhymis]

You know what they say when the rats leave the ship, eh?

[mfblume]

Bro. Chambers years ago at a meeting declared holding the Bible in one hand and the manual in the other said the church shall be governed by these two books.(Or something very similiar.) I forget the exact words.

Idolatry. Whew.

[Elizabeth]

You know what they say when the rats leave the ship, eh?

The ship is sinking.

[Rhymis]

The ship is sinking.

either that or they put a huge cat on board ..... :uhoh

[CC1]

I find it interesting that folks like NW are using video in a big way on the on the internet with ABN Global but are leaving the UPC over it allowing the same thing on broadcast stations vs. just the inernet.

Selective use of technology is ok I guess. Apparently the internet is a "worthy medium".

[Elizabeth]

either that or they put a huge cat on board ..... :uhoh


I found this on the internet:

When Rats Leave a Sinking Ship

During the first century A.D. Pliny the Elder wrote in his Natural History that "when a building is about to fall down, all the rats desert it." A more modern proverb suggests that rats always leave a sinking ship.

This proverbial phenomenon has been observed for centuries and led to the belief that rats possess some mystical power to anticipate disaster. A dread warning that a ship would be making its final voyage was foretold if rats were seen scurrying off the ship before it sailed. In The Tempest, Shakespeare described the boat on which the duke and his infant daughter had been set adrift as so unseaworthy that "the very rats instinctively have quite it."

It is not unusual for rats to leave a ship in great columns or masses if it is sinking. Therefore the sight of hordes of rats scurrying to upper decks of a ship might suggest to fellow passengers that the ship is on its way down. This has nothing to do with the rat’s extrasensory perception or powers of prognostication but with its awareness of what is happening at that very moment.

Being burrow dwellers by nature, rats live in the deepest recesses of the ship, in the bilge. This area is so low as to be almost inaccessible to the sailors. Thus the rats become aware of water entering the ship some time before the crew is alerted. As their nesting places are flooded, the rodents are impelled to flee the ship. Their continuous shrill cries of alarm quickly summon the rest of the rats from the hold. They build up into a large, frightened mass of rodents making a panicky exodus. This is, of course, a final calamity for the rats, since they will try to swim to eternity and usually do.

It is quite natural that a sight such as this would incite the passengers and crew to an equally hasty, harried departure but one that ends less disastrously.

[Pastor Keith]

I find it interesting that folks like NW are using video in a big way on the on the internet with ABN Global but are leaving the UPC over it allowing the same thing on broadcast stations vs. just the inernet.

Selective use of technology is ok I guess. Apparently the internet is a "worthy medium".

Nate Wilson leaving the UPC? Where did this come from?

[Rhymis]

I found this on the internet:

When Rats Leave a Sinking Ship

During the first century A.D. Pliny the Elder wrote in his Natural History that "when a building is about to fall down, all the rats desert it." A more modern proverb suggests that rats always leave a sinking ship.

This proverbial phenomenon has been observed for centuries and led to the belief that rats possess some mystical power to anticipate disaster. A dread warning that a ship would be making its final voyage was foretold if rats were seen scurrying off the ship before it sailed. In The Tempest, Shakespeare described the boat on which the duke and his infant daughter had been set adrift as so unseaworthy that "the very rats instinctively have quite it."

It is not unusual for rats to leave a ship in great columns or masses if it is sinking. Therefore the sight of hordes of rats scurrying to upper decks of a ship might suggest to fellow passengers that the ship is on its way down. This has nothing to do with the rat’s extrasensory perception or powers of prognostication but with its awareness of what is happening at that very moment.

Being burrow dwellers by nature, rats live in the deepest recesses of the ship, in the bilge. This area is so low as to be almost inaccessible to the sailors. Thus the rats become aware of water entering the ship some time before the crew is alerted. As their nesting places are flooded, the rodents are impelled to flee the ship. Their continuous shrill cries of alarm quickly summon the rest of the rats from the hold. They build up into a large, frightened mass of rodents making a panicky exodus. This is, of course, a final calamity for the rats, since they will try to swim to eternity and usually do.

It is quite natural that a sight such as this would incite the passengers and crew to an equally hasty, harried departure but one that ends less disastrously.

See, that's what I meant. :sos

[Rhymis]

I find it interesting that folks like NW are using video in a big way on the on the internet with ABN Global but are leaving the UPC over it allowing the same thing on broadcast stations vs. just the inernet.

Selective use of technology is ok I guess. Apparently the internet is a "worthy medium".

Noah Webster is not even a member. :sshhh

[DividedThigh]

i noticed earlier in this thread there was a mention of some of the debaters, and mention of d.l. welch, i can tell you for certain, he exalted the bible and never thought the manual was even close to the word, dt:hypercoffee

[Sam]

Bro. Chambers years ago at a meeting declared holding the Bible in one hand and the manual in the other said the church shall be governed by these two books.(Or something very similiar.) I forget the exact words.

That's kinda scary, isn't it?
We were taught that one of the marks of a cult is placing their writings on a par with the Bible.

[CC1]

Nate Wilson leaving the UPC? Where did this come from?

I didn't say he was but I thought I had seen his name among those organizing the Tulsa meeting. I could be mistaken and confused. My wife says I often am.

[Steve Epley]

i noticed earlier in this thread there was a mention of some of the debaters, and mention of d.l. welch, i can tell you for certain, he exalted the bible and never thought the manual was even close to the word, dt:hypercoffee

That is true and honestly the others debators did NOT either. But those Campbellites would quote the manual verbatim and it did carry weight with their audience that was there. It sure made life easier debating them without having to eat it from them.

[COOPER]

I found this on the internet:

When Rats Leave a Sinking Ship

During the first century A.D. Pliny the Elder wrote in his Natural History that "when a building is about to fall down, all the rats desert it." A more modern proverb suggests that rats always leave a sinking ship.

This proverbial phenomenon has been observed for centuries and led to the belief that rats possess some mystical power to anticipate disaster. A dread warning that a ship would be making its final voyage was foretold if rats were seen scurrying off the ship before it sailed. In The Tempest, Shakespeare described the boat on which the duke and his infant daughter had been set adrift as so unseaworthy that "the very rats instinctively have quite it."

It is not unusual for rats to leave a ship in great columns or masses if it is sinking. Therefore the sight of hordes of rats scurrying to upper decks of a ship might suggest to fellow passengers that the ship is on its way down. This has nothing to do with the rat’s extrasensory perception or powers of prognostication but with its awareness of what is happening at that very moment.

Being burrow dwellers by nature, rats live in the deepest recesses of the ship, in the bilge. This area is so low as to be almost inaccessible to the sailors. Thus the rats become aware of water entering the ship some time before the crew is alerted. As their nesting places are flooded, the rodents are impelled to flee the ship. Their continuous shrill cries of alarm quickly summon the rest of the rats from the hold. They build up into a large, frightened mass of rodents making a panicky exodus. This is, of course, a final calamity for the rats, since they will try to swim to eternity and usually do.

It is quite natural that a sight such as this would incite the passengers and crew to an equally hasty, harried departure but one that ends less disastrously.

Are you saying these men are rats and better ships are needed?

[COOPER]

See, that's what I meant. :sos

Rats are dirty, nasty critters.


Rat proof your ships!

[Elizabeth]

Are you saying these men are rats and better ships are needed?

No, Reymis brought the subject up--I think its interesting analogy really, aside from the fact the animal in question is a rat.

[Sam]

Is it a sinking ship or is it the Mother Ship?

Does Acts 27:31 apply here?

or

Does the Stairs quote on page 239 of the Fudge book apply?

[Rhymis]

No, Reymis brought the subject up--I think its interesting analogy really, aside from the fact the animal used is a rat.

RATS -- an anagram for

Resistors Against Television Supporters

:gclock

[COOPER]

No, Reymis brought the subject up--I think its interesting analogy really, aside from the fact the animal used is a rat.

We need to build better ships and keep out the rats.

The ship may sink, but the crew can survive and build a better ship.

[Elizabeth]

RATS -- an anagram for

Resistors Against Television Supporters

:gclock

:killinme

[COOPER]

RATS -- an anagram for

Resistors Against Television Supporters

:gclock
Maybe the rats saw the storm coming on the TV weather channel!:killinme

[Elizabeth]

We need to build better ships and keep out the rats.

The ship may sink, but the crew can survive and build a better ship.

Is there such a thing as a "rat free" ship? IDK--it's like trying to keep mice or ants out of your house, I think its impossible. Of course I speaking literally and not as an allegory.

[jrLA]

I am deeply saddened by the turn of events since "the vote". Mostly I am saddened by the way that our brethren, those of like precious faith, are acting. It is as though we have forgotten that we are to first of all be Christians! I see very little Christianily being displayed among us, and for that I am sad.

I implore you all, don't speculate or call names of those who you may have heard are leaving. It has always been my policy to be sure before I speak. It seems that there are alot of folks just plain gossiping!

I consider my self a "middle of the roader". I am very pleased at the passing of Res. #4, and I love my Organization. I love what it stands for and the vision to reach the lost that we share. May God help us! :telephone

[pelathais]

Bro. Chambers years ago at a meeting declared holding the Bible in one hand and the manual in the other said the church shall be governed by these two books.(Or something very similiar.) I forget the exact words.
I knew SC and heard him speak many times. I remember him making a similar gesture (he didn't have a Manual in hand though) and said something along the lines that as a Christian you would be judged out of this book (the Bible) and as a minister of the UPC you are expected to act as though you were to be judged out of the Manual.

He made it a real point to emphasize the importance of being a Christian first and answering that need for your soul. At no time did I ever hear him say anything along the lines that "the UPC would 'save' you." Like so many others, he seemed to feel that human organizations were a 'necessary evil' to enable us to get the more important things done.

Certainly at no time did I ever hear him put the UPC Minister's Manual on a par with sacred Scripture. If he were here to read those words, in fact, I think he would be both hurt and rather angry.

[AGAPE]

can anybody verify that TLC and 1st church are coming out???

I have heard this myself????

[AGAPE]

CC1,

Chris Craft is VERY close to Bro. Odum, one of the oranizers of the Tulsa convocation.

Also, keep in mind that TLC "retired" to Bro. Nate Wilson's Rock Church in CA.

These facts might give some credence to the assertion of Linus and Lucy's friend CB.:)

well said Bro Jones

[Hoovie]

I knew SC and heard him speak many times. I remember him making a similar gesture (he didn't have a Manual in hand though) and said something along the lines that as a Christian you would be judged out of this book (the Bible) and as a minister of the UPC you are expected to act as though you were to be judged out of the Manual.

He made it a real point to emphasize the importance of being a Christian first and answering that need for your soul. At no time did I ever hear him say anything along the lines that "the UPC would 'save' you." Like so many others, he seemed to feel that human organizations were a 'necessary evil' to enable us to get the more important things done.

Certainly at no time did I ever hear him put the UPC Minister's Manual on a par with sacred Scripture. If he were here to read those words, in fact, I think he would be both hurt and rather angry.

Amen. This is true.

[COOPER]

can anybody verify that TLC and 1st church are coming out???

I have heard this myself????
What about Stoneking

[AmazingGrace]

What about Stoneking

I seriously doubt that will happen. I do distinctly remember some saying he was for the resolution...

[Neck]

I heard from another source that TLC and 1st Church are pulling out! It's almost like a frenzy right now!

Of course, my opinion is that it's for the best in the long run for the health of the UPCI! :)

Some call it a frenzy I call it ground where revivial can come forth...

[Steve Epley]

I knew SC and heard him speak many times. I remember him making a similar gesture (he didn't have a Manual in hand though) and said something along the lines that as a Christian you would be judged out of this book (the Bible) and as a minister of the UPC you are expected to act as though you were to be judged out of the Manual.

He made it a real point to emphasize the importance of being a Christian first and answering that need for your soul. At no time did I ever hear him say anything along the lines that "the UPC would 'save' you." Like so many others, he seemed to feel that human organizations were a 'necessary evil' to enable us to get the more important things done.

Certainly at no time did I ever hear him put the UPC Minister's Manual on a par with sacred Scripture. If he were here to read those words, in fact, I think he would be both hurt and rather angry.

I confess I was NOT there however it was in PRINT and I never read a detraction or rebuttal?????

[Rhymis]

I confess I was NOT there however it was in PRINT and I never read a detraction or rebuttal?????

I think that was in Houston.

[Coonskinner]

Like I said last night...

Emmanuel: God with us.

The Manual: God help us.

[Rhymis]

Like I said last night...

Emmanuel: God with us.

The Manual: God help us.


Manual should only be associated with shovel. Not "shove us." :telephone

[CC1]

I confess I was NOT there however it was in PRINT and I never read a detraction or rebuttal?????

This sounds like one of those things that may have had a kernal of truth then got twisted just a bit in the retelling until the story had SC equating the manual with the Bible.

We see that kind of thing happen all of the time and this story is an old one back from when there were very bitter feelings with the AMF folks and I think it is possible one of them heard this and ran with it.

The National Examiner also puts things in print (such as aliens visited President Clinton in the White House) but that doesnt make it so (as far as I know the Clinton White House never rebutted the National Examiner story).

[CC1]

Here is an example of how things can get twisted uninetnionally;

1. I reported that at the AMC meeting I attended the preacher preached that
he did not allow anyone in his church under the age of 18 to own a cell phone and that no one in his church has internet access except one man who has to for his job and then he only can access the three sites he has to for work.

2. I did not say this man preached that everybody must preach that same thing or they are going to hell. In fact this man made a point to tell the preachers at this meeting that how they handled these things was up to them (of course said with much ominous headshaking, etc).

3. Someone reading my point number one but not understanding my point number two could repeat what I posed with the twist that this preacher "preached people will go to hell if they are on the internet or have cell phones under the age of 18". They would not intentionally be "lying" but what they would be saying would not be accurate or true.

[Rhymis]

This sounds like one of those things that may have had a kernal of truth then got twisted just a bit in the retelling until the story had SC equating the manual with the Bible.

We see that kind of thing happen all of the time and this story is an old one back from when there were very bitter feelings with the AMF folks and I think it is possible one of them heard this and ran with it.

The National Examiner also puts things in print (such as aliens visited President Clinton in the White House) but that doesnt make it so (as far as I know the Clinton White House never rebutted the National Examiner story).

And this sounds like yellow journalism. :saycheese

[Steve Epley]

This sounds like one of those things that may have had a kernal of truth then got twisted just a bit in the retelling until the story had SC equating the manual with the Bible.

We see that kind of thing happen all of the time and this story is an old one back from when there were very bitter feelings with the AMF folks and I think it is possible one of them heard this and ran with it.

The National Examiner also puts things in print (such as aliens visited President Clinton in the White House) but that doesnt make it so (as far as I know the Clinton White House never rebutted the National Examiner story).

CC1 Elder Burr printed in several times in books and magazines however he did NOT call his name everyone knew who he was speaking of. I never read a rebuttal or heard anyone say it was not so. But again that was in the 60's and I was NOT there. Maybe someone from that era remembers more clearly?

[Theresa]

I'd have to see that to believe it!

what he said was "it passed and I dont like it, but they dont make my living"....

he also said something about it's what they wanted, so let them have it....

nothing about pulling out or throwing in the towel

[CC1]

And this sounds like yellow journalism. :saycheese

Leave the Chinese out of this!:killinme

[CC1]

CC1 Elder Burr printed in several times in books and magazines however he did NOT call his name everyone knew who he was speaking of. I never read a rebuttal or heard anyone say it was not so. But again that was in the 60's and I was NOT there. Maybe someone from that era remembers more clearly?

I have not particular interest in defending SC but I just know how things can get twisted a little when retold

I imagine back when it is supposed to have happened that very few meetings were recorded so we will probably never know.

[Felicity]

Like I said last night...

Emmanuel: God with us.

The Manual: God help us.:toofunny

[CC1]

what he said was "it passed and I dont like it, but they dont make my living"....

he also said something about it's what they wanted, so let them have it....

nothing about pulling out or throwing in the towel

The ironic thing is that in its Hey Day FPC with the JCM talent could have had the absolute best TV commericals or programming!!

I would have liked to have seen a program or ad featuring the JCM choir of about 1978 with some good preaching / teaching. For that era no one could touch FPC / JCM for quality.

[Theresa]

The ironic thing is that in its Hey Day FPC with the JCM talent could have had the absolute best TV commericals or programming!!

I would have liked to have seen a program or ad featuring the JCM choir of about 1978 with some good preaching / teaching. For that era no one could touch FPC / JCM for quality.

I think he would have been more for the resolution if it was amended....

[CC1]

I think he would have been more for the resolution if it was amended....


Is CC more or less conservative than TLC?

[deltaguitar]

Is CC more or less conservative than TLC?

This church is UPC to the core and I wouldn't believe they are leaving until it happened. A church like this just doesn't change overnight it would take a while for the members to warm up to leaving.

[Theresa]

Is CC more or less conservative than TLC?

I'd say he's the same...They are cut from the same cloth, CC just happens to be the better preacher, CURRENTLY. But TLC still holds the reigns. yk?

[AGAPE]

they were at Little Rock????

[Light]

When they were debating the Campbellites I would cringe BECAUSE what was being said had some merit to it. In one of my debates the guy tried to bring the same stuff up. I told he was NOT debating a UPC preacher he was debating me and honestly me and the UPC preacher might debate over some of that.:killinme You have a point.


In all of the debates that you had, did you ever win one to God that you debated?

[Steve Epley]

In all of the debates that you had, did you ever win one to God that you debated?

I debated a Congregational Holiness Preacher once and he and his congregation were baptized in Jesus Name. Then a family from a Campbellite church saw the truth and started attending a Pentecostal church. Never converted a Campbellite preacher but did make a friend with him out of it.

[Theresa]

This church is UPC to the core and I wouldn't believe they are leaving until it happened. A church like this just doesn't change overnight it would take a while for the members to warm up to leaving.

TLC and others like him are not going to jump ship over this resolution.

They will stay to provide balance...and b/c it's the right thing to do

[StillStanding]

TLC and others like him are not going to jump ship over this resolution.

They will stay to provide balance...and b/c it's the right thing to do

I agree! Many are now going through the anger stage before acceptance. Once folks think it all out and count the costs, most will stay! :)

[Theresa]

I agree! Many are now going through the anger stage before acceptance. Once folks think it all out and count the costs, most will stay! :)

I know some of them are not happy with the perceived direction the UPC is headed, but they have way too much invested to bail on it now and let it crumble...

[StillStanding]

I know some of them are not happy with the perceived direction the UPC is headed, but they have way too much invested to bail on it now and let it crumble...
Agreed! :thumbsup

[Felicity]

Hmmm.........

Too bad we didn't have forums back in 95 when the AS resolution got voted in. It would have been interesting.

Well......the issues do change don't they -- from decade to decade.

[CC1]

Hmmm.........

Too bad we didn't have forums back in 95 when the AS resolution got voted in. It would have been interesting.

Well......the issues do change don't they -- from decade to decade.

Felicitous,

Did you ever answer my post (I forget on which thread) asking if you and TB had met the board yet or have that meeting scheduled?

Are you having to wait a little longer to get the hair in a bun or can you do a faux bun now? (my wife can do a Mickey Mangun slicked back bun hairdo with her cut hair).

[Rhymis]

In the software world there is such a thing as "vaporware" -- software that was much talked about but never designed. In AFF there is "vaporossip" -- much talked about ...... period.

:)

[Steve Epley]

In all of the debates that you had, did you ever win one to God that you debated?

Light were you surprized????????????? Bro. Welch baptized hundreds and maybe thousand from his debates and so did S.C. Johnson.

[Felicity]

Felicitous,

Did you ever answer my post (I forget on which thread) asking if you and TB had met the board yet or have that meeting scheduled?

Are you having to wait a little longer to get the hair in a bun or can you do a faux bun now? (my wife can do a Mickey Mangun slicked back bun hairdo with her cut hair). The Mickey Mangun look is out for me. Can't do that. But my hair has grown out - it's the longest it's been now for years. I'm able to work with it and fit in but no - no bun.

As for meetings, I'm not sure which one you're referring to exactly but we have been talking with a few in leadership positions.

The attitude seems to be ....... "Come on in. The water's fine" ....... and "Welcome back" kind of thing.

;) :)

[Felicity]

In the software world there is such a thing as "vaporware" -- software that was much talked about but never designed. In AFF there is "vaporossip" -- much talked about ...... period.

:)LOL!

Ozoneossip?

[tv1a]

All one can ask for is balance.
TLC and others like him are not going to jump ship over this resolution.

They will stay to provide balance...and b/c it's the right thing to do

[Rhymis]

LOL!

Ozoneossip?

Well I guess that beats "Gasossip" or "Etherossip." :missing

[determined]

.....Are you having to wait a little longer to get the hair in a bun or can you do a faux bun now?


Can you wear those in UPC??

[LadyRev]

if a Pastor of an affilated church resigns, the District Sup becomes the Pastor within the guidelines of either the local bylaws or the national bylaws.

If a Pastor leaves the org and has anyone licensed in the church, those licensed must attend the nearest UPC church. Any licensed minister must sever all contact with any members of the former church.


The church I currently attend is affiliated. I'm glad my pastor isn't leaving cause that would cause a line in the sand to be drawn that I would have to cross.

I would not do EITHER of the bold above. So I guess I'd be forced to leave also.

[Pastor Keith]

Felicitous,

Did you ever answer my post (I forget on which thread) asking if you and TB had met the board yet or have that meeting scheduled?

Are you having to wait a little longer to get the hair in a bun or can you do a faux bun now? (my wife can do a Mickey Mangun slicked back bun hairdo with her cut hair).

What, they are getting back in? Or did I misinterpret this?

[mizpeh]

The Mickey Mangun look is out for me. Can't do that. But my hair has grown out - it's the longest it's been now for years. I'm able to work with it and fit in but no - no bun.

As for meetings, I'm not sure which one you're referring to exactly but we have been talking with a few in leadership positions.

The attitude seems to be ....... "Come on in. The water's fine" ....... and "Welcome back" kind of thing.

;) :)

My pastor is getting the same invite. :roseglasses

[Pastor Keith]

What, they are getting back in? Or did I misinterpret this?

Bump for Felecity!

[BrotherEastman]

Let's pray that they can be objective....not all convictions are right or good for us.
Thats what I'm hoping.

[BrotherEastman]

I would be interested in knowing the actual numbers as to how many churches are disaffiliating. Is it really that many, as CB has alluded to in the first post??
I doubt it.

[StillStanding]

Let me state once again that most that are threatening to leave the UPCI will reconsider after the frenzy dies down and common sense prevails!

I project 10% at MOST to actual leave!

[CC1]

What, they are getting back in? Or did I misinterpret this?

You interpreted Felicity's dream correctly. Not sure it is as much TB's dream though!!!

[BrotherEastman]

if a Pastor of an affilated church resigns, the District Sup becomes the Pastor within the guidelines of either the local bylaws or the national bylaws.

If a Pastor leaves the org and has anyone licensed in the church, those licensed must attend the nearest UPC church. Any licensed minister must sever all contact with any members of the former church.

Affliated churches have a place, but the mass exodus is collapsing some kingdoms that should have never been there and on the other side are seeing both Conservative and Liberal Pastors looking for alternatives.

:driving
Do you Pastor BOOMM?

[Raven]

I received word that a District Superintendent stated today that he was "shaken to his soul" because so many churches nationwide are disaffiliating from the UPCI. Whole sections are disaffiliating all over the country. It is said that TLC, who has been UPC for over 50 years, is turning in his card. The DS stated, "it's much bigger than anyone thought!"

I have not verified this, so it is to be taken that way.

It would be good to wait before we decide we know how many may leave [dis-affiliate ]. GC was only over a week ago last night. To have a legal business meeting it must be announced three times over a two week period and then an organization official must be given the opportunity to speak on behalf of the UPCI. There obviously has not been time enough for this to take place and any speculation as to numbers is premature.

[Sister Alvear]

all these things sadden me...I just keep praying for all involved however people believe..

[Barb]

Nate Wilson leaving the UPC? Where did this come from?

That's what I'd like to know...has anyone confirmed this?!

[Sister Alvear]

who is TLC? just pm me if it cannot be put here. my brain is tired today!

[StillStanding]

who is TLC? just pm me if it cannot be put here. my brain is tired today!
Thomas L Craft

[Sister Alvear]

I spoke at a UPC church last night and they are staying UPC. If I was UPC and I was getting out I wouldn't join anything...all groups have their problems.

[Sister Alvear]

Thomas L Craft

Oh, yes...thanks.

[CC1]

who is TLC? just pm me if it cannot be put here. my brain is tired today!

As Pianoperson said TLC is Thomas L. Craft. His church was at one time one of the largest churches in the UPC and he was President of a UPC Bible College that his church owned (Jackson College of Ministries).

Back in the 1970's his church, FPC of JAX, MS aran around 1000-1200 people. With the Bible College gone and after some difficult years it now runs about 400 but is growing again.

[Hegavmelif]

As Pianoperson said TLC is Thomas L. Craft. His church was at one time one of the largest churches in the UPC and he was President of a UPC Bible College that his church owned (Jackson College of Ministries).

Back in the 1970's his church, FPC of JAX, MS aran around 1000-1200 people. With the Bible College gone and after some difficult years it now runs about 400 but is growing again.

********UPDATE******UPDATE*********

We are running over six hundred 600.....

***********************************

[CC1]

********UPDATE******UPDATE*********

We are running over six hundred 600.....

***********************************

Excellent! I will gladly accept that correction. I was going by my last few visits probably two about two years ago.

[vrblackwell]

I know some of them are not happy with the perceived direction the UPC is headed, but they have way too much invested to bail on it now and let it crumble...

This is a key word. Those that don't find it very easy to leave.

[The Shadow]

It would be good to wait before we decide we know how many may leave [dis-affiliate ]. GC was only over a week ago last night. To have a legal business meeting it must be announced three times over a two week period and then an organization official must be given the opportunity to speak on behalf of the UPCI. There obviously has not been time enough for this to take place and any speculation as to numbers is premature.

Are you hoping against hope? Many disaffiliated before GC and have simply to turn their license in now. Others have already started the process of disaffiliation and it is only a matter of time. District officials cannot be at all the disaffiliations at one time. I am hearing from very good sources that masses are coming out.

L. Booker, N. Wilson, V. Morton, J. Godair, K Godair, T. Johnson, and all the churches associated with these good men are pulling out. When men heard that these men were pulling out, they stepped up and started the process. Now that there is at least one org. to be formed out of this, there are more that are expressing their desire to come out. I don't the that the UPC was ready for this.

Some men expressed fear of coming out thinking that the UPC will build churches in the city they are in and suck their members out. The UPC does not have that many ministers to replace these churches nor that much funds to do so.

[UltraCon]

That's what I'd like to know...has anyone confirmed this?!

I don't know NW, i've only talked to him a few times but LB is on the board of elders for our church and is good friends with our Pastor. LB says that NW is one of the sponsers of the meeting in Tulsa.

[Sister Alvear]

Those are good men listed above at least the ones I know. I pray for God to guide them and guide us all.

Some groups are really down to nothing, others probably will be formed. Time will tell the story we can only guess how things will be.

Independents fuss and fight also...so as my husband says, we willl see...

I just hope my preaching boys will always fell like their dad does and I will be a happy mother.

[Sister Alvear]

my nephew goes to N W's church. He preached on the city of the Blind many years ago at Brother Holmes church it sure was an awesome message.

[Sister Alvear]

and that Brother Booker is a prince of a man...my what a preacher...

[UltraCon]

and that Brother Booker is a prince of a man...my what a preacher...

Yes Bro Booker is a great preacher and a great man of God. He preached for us last year and will be back next year for our 5 year anniversary. I'm going to be seeing him in Durahm next month, I can't wait.

[AGAPE]

********UPDATE******UPDATE*********

We are running over six hundred 600.....

***********************************

and having AWESOME church too

[Sister Alvear]

Yes Bro Booker is a great preacher and a great man of God. He preached for us last year and will be back next year for our 5 year anniversary. I'm going to be seeing him in Durahm next month, I can't wait.

Please give him our best regards...

[Levi]

I know people who go to Bro. Godair's church in Durham, and they said he got up and said he was getting out of the organization. I don't know about all the others, but I do know about him. :)

[Sister Alvear]

Brother Godair preached at Brother Holmes conference he sure is a good preacher.

[Consapostolic1]

Bro. Godair preached at Winter Heritage last year and it was awesome.

[Sister Alvear]

I love the preached word...I do have more faith in some more than others but that does not change the written word...
I really think if a preacher LIVES what he preaches it really doesn't bother me how hard he preaches but I have seen far to many preach one thing to be a HARD preacher then personally live another thing especially on vacations! I have trouble accepting messages from people like that. However I would do them no harm.

[Trouvere]

Amen Sister Alvear.I love it when people live it.BTW I am on vacation and got to go down
to Sister Randalls Ladies conference in Abbeville.It was awesome.I spent until one am up laughing and swapping stories with Sis.Billye Bostic.

[pelathais]

Bro. Godair preached at Winter Heritage last year and it was awesome.
I remember when he preached a NAYC several years ago. I was confused by the way he kept promoting Country singers in his message. He was contrasting the "Country" way of life with "the World." To me, popular C&W music is "the World."

He made a statement that really brought the house down; "I'm 100% Country!" Just about everyone jumped to their feet and cheered. The National Youth President turned and scowled at me because I just sat there on the platform and didn't jump up.

To this day I have absolutely no idea why I was expected to jump up and praise God Almighty just because Godair was "100% Country." Don't misunderstand me; there's nothing wrong with Godair and nothing wrong even with being "100% Country;" but I base my praise to the Almighty on a different standard and criteria. The music and everything that he enjoys are all a matter of taste and preference. When it comes to the things of God I want something Eternal.

[Consapostolic1]

Pelathais, it's amazing to me the way people treat you if you don't give them the response they expect.

[Rhymis]

Being the only one right in the house must be quite a feeling. :)

[StillStanding]

Being the only one right in the house must be quite a feeling. :)
I wouldn't know! I'll have to ask Mrs. Pianoman!!! :killinme

[pelathais]

Being the only one right in the house must be quite a feeling. :)
What's funny is that he probably wouldn't preach the same message today. So again, why should I praise God over the fickle and changing styles and fads another person is enamoured with?

And I doubt I was, or that I still am the only "one right in the house..." :)

It's just my observation that a lot of the things that get people stirred up one day won't stir anybody up on another day. How will all of the emotion and feeling that is in the wind today look just 10 years from now?

[Rhymis]

I wouldn't know! I'll have to ask Mrs. Pianoman!!! :killinme

Reminds of this email joke


An old man was laying on his death bed. With only hours to live, he suddenly noticed the scent of chocolate chip cookies coming from the kitchen.
With his last bit of energy, the old man pulled himself out from his bed, across the floor to the stairs, and down the stairs to the kitchen. There, the old man's wife was baking chocolate chip cookies. With his last ounce of energy, the old man reached for a cookie.
His wife, however, quickly smacked him across the back of his hand, and exclaimed, "Leave them alone, they're for the funeral!"

[pelathais]

Pelathais, it's amazing to me the way people treat you if you don't give them the response they expect.
Exactly. I think it's the job of the preacher (or whoever is delivering the message) to find a way to convince his/her audience that the message is important.

If you can't convince your audience that the message is important, it's not their fault; it's yours. We tend to try and train our saints to be just the opposite. We work them over at times and try and get them worked up like at a high school pep rally.

At the high school pep rally you're supposed to be for your team no matter what. No questions asked. In a church environment we are actually admonished to be just the opposite: Isaiah 8:20; Matthew 7:15-20; Mark 7:14-16; 1 John 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22; Revelation 2:2 and etc.

[Sister Alvear]

well,well...country music? Maybe Conway Twitty music inspires some...I like Jewish music...

[Rhymis]

What's funny is that he probably wouldn't preach the same message today. So again, why should I praise God over the fickle and changing styles and fads another person is enamoured with?

And I doubt I was, or that I still am the only "one right in the house..." :)

It's just my observation that a lot of the things that get people stirred up one day won't stir anybody up on another day. How will all of the emotion and feeling that is in the wind today look just 10 years from now?

Yeah, everything has a shelf life ....... now what were you saying? :snapout

[ChTatum]

I have not read this thread. I have a life away from this forum..

"Fallout?" Happens frequently at our church.

[CC1]

Are you hoping against hope? Many disaffiliated before GC and have simply to turn their license in now. Others have already started the process of disaffiliation and it is only a matter of time. District officials cannot be at all the disaffiliations at one time. I am hearing from very good sources that masses are coming out.

L. Booker, N. Wilson, V. Morton, J. Godair, K Godair, T. Johnson, and all the churches associated with these good men are pulling out. When men heard that these men were pulling out, they stepped up and started the process. Now that there is at least one org. to be formed out of this, there are more that are expressing their desire to come out. I don't the that the UPC was ready for this.

Some men expressed fear of coming out thinking that the UPC will build churches in the city they are in and suck their members out. The UPC does not have that many ministers to replace these churches nor that much funds to do so.

Hallelujah!!!! There is hope for the UPC yet.

[LaGirl]

Hallelujah!!!! There is hope for the UPC yet.

:oops :covereyes

:D

[chosenbyone]

While reading posts on this thread, I kept thinking of the children's fable, "The Sky Is Falling". In the story you have Chicken Little running around thinking that the sky was falling and all the imminent doom to come. Many folks have demonstrated hysteria over this disaster that has befallen the UPCI, when in reality, this could be the beginning of the greatest revival the organization has ever witnessed.

[pelathais]

While reading posts on this thread, I kept thinking of the children's fable, "The Sky Is Falling". In the story you have Chicken Little running around thinking that the sky was falling and all the imminent doom to come. Many folks have demonstrated hysteria over this disaster that has befallen the UPCI, when in reality, this could be the beginning of the greatest revival the organization has ever witnessed.
I agree. And it could even be the start of a revival for those who are leaving. Unity does bring about some wonderous things.

[chosenbyone]

I agree. And it could even be the start of a revival for those who are leaving. Unity does bring about some wonderous things.

Very true, indeed...

[Rico]

While reading posts on this thread, I kept thinking of the children's fable, "The Sky Is Falling". In the story you have Chicken Little running around thinking that the sky was falling and all the imminent doom to come. Many folks have demonstrated hysteria over this disaster that has befallen the UPCI, when in reality, this could be the beginning of the greatest revival the organization has ever witnessed.

Some people would never acknowledge it if it did happen.

[nwlife]

One way to look at it is this, if the sky is falling, then we are just closer to heaven itself!