What Do You Think?

[Digging4Truth]

I know of a church in a small town where there used to be a UPC church.

Some years ago the people were basically told that they needed to find themselves another place to go to church and the UPC pastor left the church.

The people at this church wanted to continue having church and so another conservative oneness pastor from another small organization came in and began being their pastor and has been there for 4-5 years.

In this time they finished paying off the church and have continued the work in this small town.

Recently the church bought another building in town. It is much larger and has much more room for expansion. When they acquired the new building the UPC came in and put the old building up for sale.

This brother came in and kept having church when no one else wanted to continue this work. They have paid the bills and the mortgage for as long as one existed.

I'm not sure if this church is "affiliated" or not. The UPCI website doesn't even show a church in that town (because there hasn't been a UPC work there for years.)

I am pretty blown away by all of this.

[Hoovie]

It makes sense to me. The church was not affiliated, and that explains no official involvement after the pastor left.

[Digging4Truth]

It makes sense to me. The church was not affiliated, and that explains no official involvement after the pastor left.

I don't know if it was affiliated before or not...

But it makes sense to you that the UPC would, after 4-5 years of the church being under another pastor from another organization, come in and sell the church out from under the current pastor?

That is the issue that I have trouble with. It makes all the sense in the world that they would not have any further dealings with the church... What doesn't make sense is that, after all this time, they all of a sudden feel that they own the building and have now put it up for sale.

[COOPER]

I know of a church in a small town where there used to be a UPC church.

Some years ago the people were basically told that they needed to find themselves another place to go to church and the UPC pastor left the church.

The people at this church wanted to continue having church and so another conservative oneness pastor from another small organization came in and began being their pastor and has been there for 4-5 years.

In this time they finished paying off the church and have continued the work in this small town.

Recently the church bought another building in town. It is much larger and has much more room for expansion. When they acquired the new building the UPC came in and put the old building up for sale.

This brother came in and kept having church when no one else wanted to continue this work. They have paid the bills and the mortgage for as long as one existed.

I'm not sure if this church is "affiliated" or not. The UPCI website doesn't even show a church in that town (because there hasn't been a UPC work there for years.)

I am pretty blown away by all of this.

Must have been some kind of agreement before when the UPC pastor left.

[AmazingGrace]

I am not a pastor so I cannot officially answer this however from our experience in the last yr. We were not affiliated so they wouldnt and couldnt sell our church from under us however... they did offer to assist in the selling process... But I was told by one of our state officials that they COULD NOT do to us what has been done here so they must have been affiliated.. Not saying its right just saying....

[Hoovie]

I don't know if it was affiliated before or not...

But it makes sense to you that the UPC would, after 4-5 years of the church being under another pastor from another organization, come in and sell the church out from under the current pastor?

That is the issue that I have trouble with. It makes all the sense in the world that they would not have any further dealings with the church... What doesn't make sense is that, after all this time, they all of a sudden feel that they own the building and have now put it up for sale.

it's apparant that I misunderstood the first post.

[COOPER]

Must have been some kind of agreement before when the UPC pastor left.Surely the UPC is not that *****.


Must have been some kind of agreement before when the UPC pastor left.
This comment was in defense of the UPCI.
Surely the UPC is not that *****
This was my un-belief and the benefit of the doubt that UPCI is *****
Again this comment was in defense to of the UPCI.


Why would any one take offence by me defending the UPCI?

[BrotherEastman]

This comment was in defense of the UPCI.
This was my un-belief and the benefit of the doubt that UPCI is *****
Again this comment was in defense to of the UPCI.


Why would any one take offence by me defending the UPCI?
????????

[COOPER]

????????
Never mind.

[LadyRev]

Oh Good Grief!

[Pastor Keith]

I know of a church in a small town where there used to be a UPC church.

Some years ago the people were basically told that they needed to find themselves another place to go to church and the UPC pastor left the church.

The people at this church wanted to continue having church and so another conservative oneness pastor from another small organization came in and began being their pastor and has been there for 4-5 years.

In this time they finished paying off the church and have continued the work in this small town.

Recently the church bought another building in town. It is much larger and has much more room for expansion. When they acquired the new building the UPC came in and put the old building up for sale.

This brother came in and kept having church when no one else wanted to continue this work. They have paid the bills and the mortgage for as long as one existed.

I'm not sure if this church is "affiliated" or not. The UPCI website doesn't even show a church in that town (because there hasn't been a UPC work there for years.)

I am pretty blown away by all of this.


There are often unknown parts to a story, most likely the UPC district most likely put up funds for some of the original building, down payment security etc. And it was time for that to be paid off.

I have knowledge of a similar situation, the Organization helped finance a building 100k, the church has prospered and moved to another building, that pastor is responsible for paying off the original 100k even though the there is a different pastor, different building and for all intentions a different church.

[Ferd]

if the UPCI district has title to the property, they can sell it.

need a lot more information before anyone could make a clear judgement.

[Esther]

if the UPCI district has title to the property, they can sell it.

need a lot more information before anyone could make a clear judgement.

Agreed!

There are always two sides to a story and then my Mom says "and then the truth". :)

[COOPER]

if the UPCI district has title to the property, they can sell it.

need a lot more information before anyone could make a clear judgement.

Question is: who held the note when these people payed the building off in the first place?

Who was responsible for the loan?

It doesn't make sense to another owners loan off.

[Digging4Truth]

if the UPCI district has title to the property, they can sell it.

need a lot more information before anyone could make a clear judgement.

Yes sir... And I don't know all the facts for sure.

But it seems to me when an org walks off and tells the people they need to find another place to go to church and someone else comes in and labors for years in that abandoned field that it sure seems a little off to all of a sudden show up and do this.

I would imagine that, if all the details were known, that there may very well be a "legal" right. But it would seem to me some decisions made in Christianity would go beyond the legalities.

I just know that I would feel very uncomfortable coming back and taking possession of a church that I had abandoned years before.

How much would it help this work to be able to sell the building they had been having church in? How much will it hurt them to lose that ability? Does anybody care?

It just seems to me that the same people who were going to church there when the UPC had the work are still going there now. That congregation has chosen to move buildings but the same church goes on.

I could see this happening without any major problems if this brother finally just gave up and left too and then there were no people left. But this is the continuance of a work.

Anyway... Just wondering what y'all thought. It bugs the fire out of me.

[Digging4Truth]

Question is: who held the note when these people payed the building off in the first place?

Who was responsible for the loan?

It doesn't make sense to another owners loan off.

I don't know whose name the loan was in. One would assume it would be in the name of the local assembly.

But... whoever's name the loan was in the local assembly paid the note each month from their tithes & offerings both before and after the UPC left. The members of the church paid the note.

No matter whose name it was in the local assembly was responsible for paying the note.

[Sister Alvear]

wrong things have been done by the UPC BUT wrong things have been done by independents...so....I know missionaries that felt the UPC did them wrong...I know independents that have been done wrong...
I am not UPC but many people all over the world have been saved because of their effort.
I think each case is different and requires much prayer and humility.

[Sister Alvear]

We must all continually pray for the right spirit and attitude. If I were leaving I would just leave and not try to destroy anyone.
I once held a card for government reasons with a tiny group I really never agreed to some things but they were kind but as things sometimes happen with humans the director took several thousand dollars of our money we had raised. We just dropped out and were nice to any of them we have run across over the years. Many people never knew and we tryed to kill no one.

Our kids never held a card with them anyway and our churches are set up on a national basis.

Every situation is different but whatever the situations decisions have to be made in the light of eternity.

[Digging4Truth]

wrong things have been done by the UPC BUT wrong things have been done by independents...so....I know missionaries that felt the UPC did them wrong...I know independents that have been done wrong...
I am not UPC but many people all over the world have been saved because of their effort.
I think each case is different and requires much prayer and humility.

Yes ma'am... and this thread is definitely not to try and say that UPC is any more likely to do anything wrong than anyone else. Where men are involved there will always be differences of opinions.

And... like I said... it is likely that, due to whose name this is in etc, there may well be a full legal right... If I were to study this out I am sure that the chances are good that the legalities will all be in line.

But... also like I said... it would seem that, among Christians, we would have a leading within ourselves beyond the legalities to what is just and right to do among brethren.

With as much as I know at the moment this surely doesn't seem to hold up to that higher standard.

And... as far as humility goes... the brother who has pastored there has been encouraged to fight the UPC on this but he refuses. He isn't going to fight with brethren.

[Sister Alvear]

I do know of some situations both independent and UPC so in every area of life greed is a 'dependable" vice...and the most common in the human heart.

[Margies3]

But... also like I said... it would seem that, among Christians, we would have a leading within ourselves beyond the legalities to what is just and right to do among brethren.

With as much as I know at the moment this surely doesn't seem to hold up to that higher standard.

And... as far as humility goes... the brother who has pastored there has been encouraged to fight the UPC on this but he refuses. He isn't going to fight with brethren.

D4T, I've heard it said that CHURCH business is church business but church BUSINESS is business.

Sadly, it sounds like this is what is coming into play in this case. Kudos to the brother who has been pastoring there for refusing to fight with the brethren. That takes a big man.

[Digging4Truth]

D4T, I've heard it said that CHURCH business is church business but church BUSINESS is business.

Sadly, it sounds like this is what is coming into play in this case. Kudos to the brother who has been pastoring there for refusing to fight with the brethren. That takes a big man.

Yes ma'am. This was his decision and I didn't say one word in question of his decision. In my heart... I know he has made the right decision. It still bugs me somewhat but maybe that is what we were being instructed to do when the word says to be angry and sin not.

The very best thing to do, probably, is to simply move on and I have to say I am respectful and appreciative of his spirit in the midst of this situation.

[Trouvere]

God is still in control and that congregation can still have revival regardless.Some things are not worth going to hell over.

[Margies3]

God is still in control and that congregation can still have revival regardless.Some things are not worth going to hell over.

Well said, Trouvere!! Well said!!

D4T, I seriously believe that if this man is choosing the high road (which it appears he is), then God is seeing it. He knows this fellow's heart for people and for pleasing his Savior. And GOD will bless him. Maybe not today or not week or next month. But in God's time, GOD will triumph.

[Digging4Truth]

Well said, Trouvere!! Well said!!

D4T, I seriously believe that if this man is choosing the high road (which it appears he is), then God is seeing it. He knows this fellow's heart for people and for pleasing his Savior. And GOD will bless him. Maybe not today or not week or next month. But in God's time, GOD will triumph.

Yes Ma'am... I agree.