View Full Version : Preserving the Institution of Marriage
Rhoni
10-10-2007, 07:13 AM
Today while traveling to work I was listening to WORD FM 100.7 in Dallas. Focus on the Family with Dr. James Dobson was having open discussion with Chuck Coleson, Maggie Gallaugher, & Robbie [didn't catch the last name] from Princeton, New Jersey. The topic, title of thread, discussed the legislative work in the State of New Jersey. A millionaire has contributed $15,000,000.00 to distroy the lives of those in office who would be pro-marriage, not by attacking their stand against legalized Gay & Lesbian marriages/unions [the total population in America of Gays & Lesbians only being approx. 2%], but finding out where they are sensitive and going after them where it hurts.
The problem with the Gay & Lesbian agenda is not that it is so important that marriage between same sexes are legalized, because very few of them want to marry, but if legalized it would change the social institution of marriage as we know it, and it will also bind the hand of our religious freedom in this country. Those who preach against or teach against such would be labeled as 'discriminatory', or 'bigots' just like other bigots and would be ostracisized from any governmental office as well as tying the hands of our religous freedom in America which was what our country was founded on.
This subject touched the core of me because, as a Christian, as a Marriage & Family Counselor, I promote and believe in God's law and the institution of marriage. We, as Christians/Apostolics cannot bury our heads in the proverbial sand any more. We cannot avoid conflict and say, "I'll stay out of politics or political isses" anymore. We cannot let the Passionate few who support the Gay and Lesbian Agenda change the God given social order of marriage and the home. We need the majority, with God on their side, to be Passionate and fight to stop what is happening in New Jersey which will affect other states. Our congressmen and legislators need for us to know that we are behind them and that we have a voice.
Pray about it. Let God talk to you. If you do not have a "call" to fight this, the devil and men will wear you out [just like anything else], but if you are called and God be for you...NOTHING can stand against you.
In God's Grip, Rhoni
For more information:
Nationformarriage.org
Charles Coleson's new book: God in Government
DividedThigh
10-10-2007, 07:17 AM
good words rhoni, and so true, god help us if they are successful, lord dont let it happen, dt:hypercoffee
Carpenter
10-10-2007, 08:23 AM
[the total population in America of Gays & Lesbians only being approx. 2%],
This is a political agenda to be sure, the majority of gays and Ls who desire to have their union formalized are only interested for purposes of spousal health and life insurance benefits. Very few of these types are monogamous and if they are it is not for very long.
Gayism is hand in hand with political liberalism, they are not content until they have jammed their agenda down the throats of those who disagree with them.
Trouvere
10-10-2007, 09:08 AM
Sister Rhoni,
I am praying against it.Thanks for sharing this today.I work with many who are open homosexual as is our entire area.There is even a gay fest here.lv sis.c
Margies3
10-10-2007, 11:48 AM
Rhoni, I thought you left us for a while? What happened, didja miss us? LOL
Actually, I am very glad that you posted this. It is something we all need to really give some time and attention to. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
bishoph
10-10-2007, 12:44 PM
Sis Rhoni, a very good thread! I believe this is one of the greatest issues facing us today, and most of the church world does not understand the huge impact this will have down the road if we do not rise to defend the institution of marriage.
I recently interviewed the director of a group in California who is pushing for same sex marriage, he has gathered hundreds of ministers to "sell" them on the merits of their agenda. He told me that they want the ability to be recognized civilly but not religiously as married couples. When I ask him about the legal issue the church would face he quickly changed the subject and refused to answer the question. If same sex marriage becomes legal, any church/minister who refuses to perform a wedding can be sue for discrimination, and eventually the laws will allow prosecution under hate crimes. We in the church had better wake up!
Trouvere
10-10-2007, 02:57 PM
I do not agree with same sex marriage but I have to admit it's hard on the
children that are involved in these unions to get healthcare insurance.My friend from work was not able to get domestic coverage and the amount she would have to pay on her own for her son is an unbelievable amount on her pay amount.If they were able to add her and the child to the other partners
insurance it would be affordable but at present its not.So honestly when you
are looking at people who see no other option according to what has them bound you can understand why they would fight for recognition and healthcare coverage.I may not agree but I can understand.People bound by something they feel they have no control over and feel hopeless over do things that are not christian so with that in mind I try to remember where they are coming from.
Rhoni
10-10-2007, 07:02 PM
This is a political agenda to be sure, the majority of gays and Ls who desire to have their union formalized are only interested for purposes of spousal health and life insurance benefits. Very few of these types are monogamous and if they are it is not for very long.
Gayism is hand in hand with political liberalism, they are not content until they have jammed their agenda down the throats of those who disagree with them.
The Gay and Lesbian community now can access insurance benefits through partners on the job so that isn't their agenda. Legalizing their marriages is not their agenda...getting even with the religious community and God [let me explain...the majority of those who consider themselves Gay, Bi-sexual, or Lesbian have been abused physically or sexually by a relative or close friend of the family]. Their agenda is to make religious people out to be the bigots and perpetrators of hate and shut our churches down with discrimination lawsuits, ect.
If they are more passionate about their cause than we are to preserve our religous freedom then America will change within the next two years and it will not be good. Come quickly Lord Jesus.
Sincerely, Rhoni
Rhoni
10-10-2007, 07:07 PM
good words rhoni, and so true, god help us if they are successful, lord dont let it happen, dt:hypercoffee
The Lord uses women and men of faith to do his work on this earth. I said that to say...we can't just pray for the Lord to do something and just sit back on our laurels and wait...we have to act. We need to storm the gates of hell and take back what the enemy has stolen from us.:reaper
Rhoni
10-10-2007, 07:18 PM
Sister Rhoni,
I am praying against it.Thanks for sharing this today.I work with many who are open homosexual as is our entire area.There is even a gay fest here.lv sis.c
The total population of GLB in the USA is only approx. 2%. But for the past 10 years, I have gone to college with them, to church with them, worked with and for them. Most of them are lovely people and my heart goes out to them for all the heartache they have had to endure to get to where they are.
I wish I knew exactly how to minister to them but until God enlightens me, I can only love them and fight their agenda without hating them.
Again, Sincerely, Rhoni
Lucy Van Pelt
10-10-2007, 07:21 PM
Girlfriend, you have got to share your weight loss secret!
One day weight loss. It has to be a record.
Rhoni
10-10-2007, 08:08 PM
Sis Rhoni, a very good thread! I believe this is one of the greatest issues facing us today, and most of the church world does not understand the huge impact this will have down the road if we do not rise to defend the institution of marriage.
I recently interviewed the director of a group in California who is pushing for same sex marriage, he has gathered hundreds of ministers to "sell" them on the merits of their agenda. He told me that they want the ability to be recognized civilly but not religiously as married couples. When I ask him about the legal issue the church would face he quickly changed the subject and refused to answer the question. If same sex marriage becomes legal, any church/minister who refuses to perform a wedding can be sue for discrimination, and eventually the laws will allow prosecution under hate crimes. We in the church had better wake up!
Bishop,
Then you understand what I am talking about. Thank-you for your contribution to his thread. You are totally right...we had better wake up!
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni
10-10-2007, 08:10 PM
Rhoni, I thought you left us for a while? What happened, didja miss us? LOL
Actually, I am very glad that you posted this. It is something we all need to really give some time and attention to. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Sis. Margie,
This was a topic I could not resist. I am only here for this reason. I refuse to get into conflict with people.
Blessings, Rhoni
Scott Hutchinson
10-10-2007, 08:13 PM
Sister Rhoni may the church not bury it's head in the sand,but be the salt and light in the earth it's called to be.
Rhoni
10-10-2007, 08:15 PM
Sister Rhoni may the church not bury it's head in the sand,but be the salt and light in the earth it's called to be.
Amen Bro. Scott...and again I say, "AMEN"!
Scott Hutchinson
10-10-2007, 08:26 PM
If there ever was a day that the cross ought to preached it's today,because without the shed blood Of Christ and His Holy Spirit mankind can be deceived by satan to the lowest depths of depravity.
Rhoni
10-11-2007, 04:29 AM
If there ever was a day that the cross ought to preached it's today,because without the shed blood Of Christ and His Holy Spirit mankind can be deceived by satan to the lowest depths of depravity.
Bro. Scott,
I agree only in part. The church needs to come outside the 4 walls of it's buildings and be activists for the cause of Christ by modeling Christian principles, as well and speaking, writing letters to government officials, and voting in every election...on the issues not the personality of the person being voted on.
We ought to be the most informed, the most vocal, ad the most passionate about kingdom causes than the spirit of the age that threats our very life's structure.
Blessings, Rhoni
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 07:31 PM
As good citizens, as well as Christians we have a duty to be involved in government. Bad government is partly to blame for the current condition of the American nuclear family. Welfare for example is only paid when one parent is absent from the house. This travesty inevitably leads to single parent families (usually with the female raising the children alone), and single parent families headed by the mother of course constitute the majority percentage of the impoverished in America. As such these policies have contributed to the African Americans staying economically repressed more than any racial issues. It also leads to such debacles as the Maury Povich show featuring a mother going through 16 DNA tests to try and find the identity of her child’s father, being broadcast for the amusement of the public. Clearly we should use the power of the vote to reform such policies.
There is also clearly an agenda among the Gay/Lesbian community to have their lifestyle not only validated but given eventually given preferential treatment. There are also reasons beyond those normally given to oppose giving state sanctification to such unions.
However, I do not fear the “gay agenda” as being the main threat to the preservation of marriage. The “church” has already done more than its share to destroy the institution through inactivity and lack of teaching. There is virtually no difference in the divorce rate among Evangelicals in America and the unchurched. (If I recall somewhere around 53%). And yet I believe Barna once determined by survey that among couples who prayed together on a daily basis (more than ritualistically- like saying grace) the divorce rate is .001% or about one in a thousand. So few couples pray with each other and for each other and we are surprised by our divorce rate?
The self-reported major cause of divorce in America is arguments over finance. Even simple things such as teaching couples to pray together over budgets would help lower the rate.
Furthermore, there is no longer an understanding of the word covenant, as in for better or worse until death do us part. When we have ministers ready to break covenant and disfellowship over non-“salvational” standards how could there not be a trickle down of that spirit to the congregation? Is not breaking covenant with brethren over such things a form of “irreconcilable differences”, the excuse often used when couples are merely tired of each other. Divorce is too easy to obtain.
Rhoni, we need qualified professionals such as yourself to be involved in preventive teachings instead of having to clean up the mess of broken vows and relationships when it may be too late to mend them. We need pastors with the courage to have such things taught. We need to teach covenant prayer. We need Christians that understand covenant to God is first, marriage covenant second, and all else including ministry, vocation, and evangelism a distant third.
In short we do need to be involved in government; same sex marriage is just plain bad law on many levels. But the sanctity of marriage is not in danger from it. Rather the threat is in lack of teaching from the church, everything from basic Christianity, to meaning of covenant, to practical life lessons. Romance is not enough, even infilling of the Holy Ghost by itself is not enough. Most marriages do not collapse from outward pressures (certainly not the gay agenda), but rather from lack in inner braces
Rhoni
10-11-2007, 08:27 PM
[quote]As good citizens, as well as Christians we have a duty to be involved in government. Bad government is partly to blame for the current condition of the American nuclear family. Welfare for example is only paid when one parent is absent from the house. This travesty inevitably leads to single parent families (usually with the female raising the children alone), and single parent families headed by the mother of course constitute the majority percentage of the impoverished in America. As such these policies have contributed to the African Americans staying economically repressed more than any racial issues. It also leads to such debacles as the Maury Povich show featuring a mother going through 16 DNA tests to try and find the identity of her child’s father, being broadcast for the amusement of the public. Clearly we should use the power of the vote to reform such policies.
Jim, This is very true about the statistics for America. Over 50% of our households are single parent family homes with the majority being females with children which is our highest level of poverty. As a struggling single female, when my children were 7 & 9 years old through age 18, I received no alimony and had a very low rate of child support and it was sporatic. Since that time I have had the unique opportunity to counsel many single females beign able to empathize with their plight. And yes, you are correct about teh African American female. Not only does she fight poverty but African American males die younger and the majority of them never go to college or if they begin they drop out.
There is also clearly an agenda among the Gay/Lesbian community to have their lifestyle not only validated but given eventually given preferential treatment. There are also reasons beyond those normally given to oppose giving state sanctification to such unions.
Obviously the GLB agenda is about more than a civil union between two partners..it is out to undermine our traditional/Biblical family unit, as well as destroy the religious fabric our civilization is built on. They are out to change the paradigm in which we think, live, and function.
However, I do not fear the “gay agenda” as being the main threat to the preservation of marriage. The “church” has already done more than its share to destroy the institution through inactivity and lack of teaching. There is virtually no difference in the divorce rate among Evangelicals in America and the unchurched. (If I recall somewhere around 53%). And yet I believe Barna once determined by survey that among couples who prayed together on a daily basis (more than ritualistically- like saying grace) the divorce rate is .001% or about one in a thousand. So few couples pray with each other and for each other and we are surprised by our divorce rate?
Barna statistics do show that the church/evangelical Christians which include Pentecostals/Apostolics are in a higher divorce bracket that others. For years we claimed to not believe in divorce and now even our ministry, of which many on this forum were, have been divorced and remarried. It is no wonder that more high profile evangelicals such as Jim & Tammy Baker, Randy & Paula White, and others are divorcing and their churches accepting it. The problem with divorce is due to many things; 1) the feminist movement, 2) WW II and the women going to work outside the homes while their men were at war, 3) The no fault divorce has been the curse from the pit of hell to destroy families/marriages.
The self-reported major cause of divorce in America is arguments over finance. Even simple things such as teaching couples to pray together over budgets would help lower the rate.
The no fault divorce has been the curse from the pit of hell to destroy families/marriages.
Furthermore, there is no longer an understanding of the word covenant, as in for better or worse until death do us part. When we have ministers ready to break covenant and disfellowship over non-“salvational” standards how could there not be a trickle down of that spirit to the congregation? Is not breaking covenant with brethren over such things a form of “irreconcilable differences”, the excuse often used when couples are merely tired of each other. Divorce is too easy to obtain.
Covenant...exactly! When the euphoria we have related to "in love" pheremones subside...it is the promise/covenant and commitment to it that keeps a couple together...like Grandma and Grampa used to have. We are a selfish generation of people that expect all our neeeds to be met, and feel we have a right to it. Jesus knew about the "hardness of the people's hearts". This is why it is so difficult for singles, widowed and divorced to wed again. Our expectations are unrealistic...we want the other person to meet our criteria but give no thought to what we have to contribute. We ar a selfish and spoiled generation.
Rhoni, we need qualified professionals such as yourself to be involved in preventive teachings instead of having to clean up the mess of broken vows and relationships when it may be too late to mend them. We need pastors with the courage to have such things taught. We need to teach covenant prayer. We need Christians that understand covenant to God is first, marriage covenant second, and all else including ministry, vocation, and evangelism a distant third.
Like in everything else Jim, the Apostolics are the slowest and last to get on board with programs that benefit the church as a whole. Marriage enrichment, pre-marital counseling, counseling couples & families in crisis is great for all the other denominations but we have our Bibles and the Holy Ghost and have no need of anything else. Of course, we forget...that we are called to example, preach, teach, and counsel. My heart has always been, even from a child...to study, choose a vocation or an area of study that would be benefical to the kingdom, but he only jobs I have been offered are a mega Baptist, and Mega Methodist churches...that's all right. God has used me out there in the trenches and in workplace to be salt and light. I do desire our churches, not just for those of us who study counseling, but even lay ministers to be equipped to counsel with more than a thump on the Bible and say....you know what the Bible says. For one thing...many DON't know what the Bible says...we have to instruct, teach, and counsel.
In short we do need to be involved in government; same sex marriage is just plain bad law on many levels. But the sanctity of marriage is not in danger from it. Rather the threat is in lack of teaching from the church, everything from basic Christianity, to meaning of covenant, to practical life lessons. Romance is not enough, even infilling of the Holy Ghost by itself is not enough. Most marriages do not collapse from outward pressures (certainly not the gay agenda), but rather from lack in inner braces
Amen Brother...I could not add anything more to this thought out and intelligent post.
Your post is brilliant, insightful, and you are amazingly humble.
Thank-you.
Blessings, Rhoni
If I may ask, why get involved in government?
Rhoni
10-11-2007, 08:53 PM
If I may ask, why get involved in government?
Rudy,
On second thought...that is a reasonable question. I had always been taught not to get involved in politics and such, but even in our churches and organizations there is politics. In order to get things changed or yet to remain the same one must be an activist for a cause. And what better cause than preservation of church, families, and Biblical/traditional values.
Thank-you for responding Rudy.
Blessings, Rhoni
Just read the thread dude:hypercoffee
Is marriage in the Body of Christ threatened by secular law?
Rhoni
10-11-2007, 08:58 PM
Is marriage in the Body of Christ threatened by secular law?
If you are talking, Biblical marriage as God intended it...absolutely. In separating the religous from the secular in this area opens the door for discrimination lawsuits and keeping relious/moral people out of public offices which leaves us what?
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:03 PM
Is marriage in the Body of Christ threatened by secular law?
Define "threatened"
If you are talking, Biblical marriage as God intended it...absolutely. In separating the religous from the secular in this area opens the door for discrimination lawsuits and keeping relious/moral people out of public offices which leaves us what?
It leaves what God leaves. All authority is appointed by God, is it not? Does God rule in the kingdom of men? The word of God on marriage remains the same to his people. We are not moved by what governments do.
Define "threatened"
What is expected between two saved people.
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 09:08 PM
If you are talking, Biblical marriage as God intended it...absolutely. In separating the religous from the secular in this area opens the door for discrimination lawsuits and keeping relious/moral people out of public offices which leaves us what?
I thought you were leaving. Did that weight come off that quick?? :runhills
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:08 PM
Define "threatened"
Define "threatened"
Rhoni
10-11-2007, 09:09 PM
It leaves what God leaves. All authority is appointed by God, is it not? Does God rule in the kingdom of men? The word of God on marriage remains the same to his people. We are not moved by what governments do.
Rudy, As I have alrady stated...God has chosen men and women of God to do his work on the earth under direction of His spirit. The Bible tells us the gates of hell will not prevail against us. Which means He gives us His Holy Spirit to fight the devil offensively...oh we cna stay married...that is not he point, the point is that the world wants to deny the Biblical hierarchy God has set for marriage and families and that is the issue that we as Christians are to stand for. God did not call us to be "Doormats for Christ" but AMBASSADORS.
Blessings, Rhoni
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:11 PM
What is expected between two saved people.
So your question is, is what is expected between two saved people affected by secular law?
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 09:14 PM
The total population of GLB in the USA is only approx. 2%. But for the past 10 years, I have gone to college with them, to church with them, worked with and for them. Most of them are lovely people and my heart goes out to them for all the heartache they have had to endure to get to where they are.
I wish I knew exactly how to minister to them but until God enlightens me, I can only love them and fight their agenda without hating them.
Again, Sincerely, Rhoni
Sis Rhoni, the bible says that Love covers a multitude of sins. All we can do is love them. For God so loved the World, that he gave his son. We got to be willing to give every bit of love we got to win these that are need Christ.
Rhoni
10-11-2007, 09:16 PM
Sis Rhoni, the bible says that Love covers a multitude of sins. All we can do is love them. For God so loved the World, that he gave his son. We got to be willing to give every bit of love we got to win these that are need Christ.
Loving them and allowing them to effect change in us or the Biblical way of life is two different things. You can love someone and totally disagree with them. As I do the GLB agenda.
Blessings, Rhoni
Scott Hutchinson
10-11-2007, 09:19 PM
I ceratinly don't agree with Dominion theology on certain things,but the idea that the Church can affect change in our world, I think is something we can work towards.
While we are awaiting our resurrection, we can be salt and light and exercise dominitive authority in the earth,and affect change for The Kingdom Of Heaven.
Rudy, As I have alrady stated...God has chosen men and women of God to do his work on the earth under direction of His spirit. The Bible tells us the gates of hell will not prevail against us. Which means He gives us His Holy Spirit to fight the devil offensively...oh we cna stay married...that is not he point, the point is that the world wants to deny the Biblical hierarchy God has set for marriage and families and that is the issue that we as Christians are to stand for. God did not call us to be "Doormats for Christ" but AMBASSADORS.
Blessings, Rhoni
I have no problem standing up for what is right. May I ask you this question? Does God appoint all governmental authorty?
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 09:20 PM
Loving them and allowing them to effect change in us or the Biblical way of life is two different things. You can love someone and totally disagree with them. As I do the GLB agenda.
Blessings, Rhoni
If we will love them with agape love, Jesus will do the disagreeing in their hearts and they will be able to be set free from sin.
Scott Hutchinson
10-11-2007, 09:23 PM
The Bible does instruct to pray for govermental leaders,I certainly wouldn't say the Roman Govt. was God -ordained but Jesus said to Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:23 PM
I have no problem standing up for what is right. May I ask you this question? Does God appoint all governmental authorty?
Rudy is your premise that we should stay out of governmental affairs, ie not vote for change?
Rhoni
10-11-2007, 09:24 PM
If we will love them with agape love, Jesus will do the disagreeing in their hearts and they will be able to be set free from sin.
That passivist attitude is not what the Bible talks about. Jesus loves the sinner but abhors the sin and make no mistake...no sin will enter heaven. You can stand against the sin and love the person. It is like raising children...if you love them you will dicipline them. Even Jesus Christ disciplines those he loves. If a parent does not discipline and train the children they will bring him shame...
if we let the GLB agenda stand then it will bring America shame.
So your question is, is what is expected between two saved people affected by secular law?
Those that are a married couple in the body of Christ are not affected by secular law concerning the gay agenda.
Scott Hutchinson
10-11-2007, 09:25 PM
Again I don't agree with Kingdom Now Or Post-Mill. but we should vote and get involved with the political process as much as we can.
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 09:27 PM
That passivist attitude is not what the Bible talks about. Jesus loves the sinner but abhors the sin and make no mistake...no sin will enter heaven. You can stand against the sin and love the person. It is like raising children...if you love them you will dicipline them. Even Jesus Christ disciplines those he loves. If a parent does not discipline and train the children they will bring him shame...
if we let the GLB agenda stand then it will bring America shame.
The problem with this is you are not Jesus, and you are not their parent. We are called to love. By THIS the world knows that we are his, that we LOVE with a Jesus love. You will not win anyone giving them a rule book! But if you demonstrate Jesus agape love, they will see him in you, and glorify the Father.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:29 PM
Sis Rhoni, the bible says that Love covers a multitude of sins. All we can do is love them. For God so loved the World, that he gave his son. We got to be willing to give every bit of love we got to win these that are need Christ.
Why would you think from her post she is disagreeing with you?
Rudy is your premise that we should stay out of governmental affairs, ie not vote for change?
I would not have a problem with writing letters or such. I do not vote because I believe it is clear that God appoints all authority. Which is not a new understanding but has always been acknowledged.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:31 PM
The problem with this is you are not Jesus, and you are not their parent. We are called to love. By THIS the world knows that we are his, that we LOVE with a Jesus love. You will not win anyone giving them a rule book! But if you demonstrate Jesus agape love, they will see him in you, and glorify the Father.
All true as far as agape, but are you honestly proposing a world without rules?
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 09:32 PM
Why would you think from her post she is disagreeing with you?
I was agreeing with that post, but disagree with some of the ones after.
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 09:33 PM
All true as far as agape, but are you honestly proposing a world without rules?
No, I am proposing a world where Gods holy spirit rules, instead of man.
The Bible does instruct to pray for govermental leaders,I certainly wouldn't say the Roman Govt. was God -ordained but Jesus said to Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.
Who did Jesus tell where his authority came from when he faced him? The Roman government was ordained by God. All governmental authority is ordained by God. But not all goverment is godly.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:34 PM
I would not have a problem with writing letters or such. I do not vote because I believe it is clear that God appoints all authority. Which is not a new understanding but has always been acknowledged.
Then perhaps you believe God accidentally made us a republic with the ability to elect our leaders, or it was all some cosmic mistake? Or perhaps you believe casting of lots would be a better system to make sure that only the divine providence had a say so in our leaders?
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:35 PM
Who did Jesus tell where his authority came from when he faced him? The Roman government was ordained by God. All governmental authority is ordained by God. But not all goverment is godly.
Rudy history 101 were Romans allowed to elect their leaders?
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:37 PM
No, I am proposing a world where Gods holy spirit rules, instead of man.
So you oppose introducing legislature which would recognize same sex marriages? Since that would be adding a rule an all. By your logic we need to leave the status quo alone.
Then perhaps you believe God accidentally made us a republic with the ability to elect our leaders, or it was all some cosmic mistake? Or perhaps you believe casting of lots would be a better system to make sure that only the divine providence had a say so in our leaders?
It seems you are being a bit sarcastic here. Does God appoint all govermental authority? Yes or No?
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:39 PM
It seems you are being a bit sarcastic here. Does God appoint all govermental authority? Yes or No?
Are you saying that it is impossible for voters to be used of God? Yes or no?
Rudy history 101 were Romans allowed to elect their leaders?
It does not matter what process is available. It is God who appoints. So you know who God wants in government??
Scott Hutchinson
10-11-2007, 09:40 PM
Who did Jesus tell where his authority came from when he faced him? The Roman government was ordained by God. All governmental authority is ordained by God. But not all goverment is godly.
Authority is ordained by God ,but not all forms of govt. hence communism or the Third Reich.
Man can take something good and pervert it.
Are you saying that it is impossible for voters to be used of God? Yes or no?
So you know who God wants in there?
Scott Hutchinson
10-11-2007, 09:41 PM
Did God want Hitler Or Stalin Or Castro Or Nero in their positions ?
Authority is ordained by God ,but not all forms of govt. hence communism or the Third Reich.
Man can take something good and pervert it.
So God did not appoint Hitler?
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:43 PM
It does not matter what process is available. It is God who appoints. So you know who God wants in government??
So you are saying God made a mistake by allowing this republic to be founded?
You are saying the founding fathers of this country got it all wrong?
Or are you admitting that voters can be the instruments of God which He choses to use IN THIS COUNTRY to place rulers in office?
Did God want Hitler Or Stalin Or Castro Or Nero in their positions ?
He absolutely did, he even appointed that ole serpent the devil.
So you are saying God made a mistake by allowing this republic to be founded?
You are saying the founding fathers of this country got it all wrong?
Or are you admitting that voters can be the instruments of God which He choses to use IN THIS COUNTRY to place rulers in office?
Of course God allowed this government to exist. That's what i've been saying. You feel without the vote God is helpless.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:47 PM
So God did not appoint Hitler?
With that thought process you are certainly to be commended in YOUR commitment not to vote!!! Thanks from those of us who care, and a choose to exercise the right that GOD has given citizens of this country to elect their government.
And you are totally ignoring the question-- Is it impossible for a voter to be an instrument of God?
Scott Hutchinson
10-11-2007, 09:50 PM
I can't see God appointing a Anti-Semite like Hitler in office.
Satan fell from His estate due to his rebellion.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:50 PM
Of course God allowed this government to exist. That's what i've been saying. You feel without the vote God is helpless.
Actually it is you who sounds helpless my Calvinistic friend.
By YOUR logic God has absolute control, and by YOUR logic that control extends to our form of election, and by YOUR logic therefore we should vote
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 09:52 PM
So you oppose introducing legislature which would recognize same sex marriages? Since that would be adding a rule an all. By your logic we need to leave the status quo alone.
You are talking about 2 different kingdoms. Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world. So what kingdom do you live in? If this one, then follow on. But I choose to live in the kingdom of my personal savior. And he commands me to love. all other commands are done when we simply love. The lost are not one by how much theology we can give them. they are one win we love them. After they are one, God will lead them into all truth. But it will not be rules. It will be relationship.
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 09:54 PM
I can't see God appointing a Anti-Semite like Hitler in office.
Satan fell from His estate due to his rebellion.
Scott Hutchenson,
God can sit up someone like Hitler up for a season just as he sit up Pharoh.
With that thought process you are certainly to be commended in YOUR commitment not to vote!!! Thanks from those of us who care, and a choose to exercise the right that GOD has given citizens of this country to elect their government.
And you are totally ignoring the question-- Is it impossible for a voter to be an instrument of God?
All things are possible with God--your reasoning is that God is not able of putting into office whom he chooses without the help of man. Do you absolutely know who God wants into office?
Did God make a mistake when he appointed the judges that allowed abortion?? yes/no
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:56 PM
You are talking about 2 different kingdoms. Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world. So what kingdom do you live in? If this one, then follow on. But I choose to live in the kingdom of my personal savior. And he commands me to love. all other commands are done when we simply love. The lost are not one by how much theology we can give them. they are one win we love them. After they are one, God will lead them into all truth. But it will not be rules. It will be relationship.
Ultralib wins. Ban the penal code, let chaos reign!!!
Seriously you oppose voting?
Scott Hutchinson
10-11-2007, 09:56 PM
I agree we should love those in sin but I think we should vote and get involved in the political process, to me that is part of being salt and light.
I can't see God appointing a Anti-Semite like Hitler in office.
Satan fell from His estate due to his rebellion.
The word of God makes it clear that he and he alone appoints all authority.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 09:57 PM
All things are possible with God--your reasoning is that God is not able of putting into office whom he chooses without the help of man. Do you absolutely know who God wants into office?
Did God make a mistake when he appointed the judges that allowed abortion?? yes/no
Perhaps God chose to punish us for a season because of persons who chose not to vote?
Perhaps God chose to punish us for a season because of persons who chose not to vote?
Come on now Brother please answer--yes or no.
Scott Hutchinson
10-11-2007, 10:00 PM
Scott Hutchenson,
God can sit up someone like Hitler up for a season just as he sit up Pharoh.
And you know during WW.2 many dispensationalists and premillenialists thought Hitler was doing God's will because they thought He was bringing judgements on the Jews for their rejection of Christ.
God is God and can do what He wants but I can't see people like Hitler and Stalin as God ordained leaders.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 10:01 PM
You are talking about 2 different kingdoms. Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world. So what kingdom do you live in? If this one, then follow on. But I choose to live in the kingdom of my personal savior. And he commands me to love. all other commands are done when we simply love. The lost are not one by how much theology we can give them. they are one win we love them. After they are one, God will lead them into all truth. But it will not be rules. It will be relationship.
The original premise of the thread which you obviously are in opposition to has to do with legalizing same sex marriage, not banning it. By your actions you obviously take umbrage with that. But by following your logic God placed those in power who have chosen NOT to pass such law. Therefore by maintaining the status quo we are supporting God.
And you know during WW.2 many dispensationalists and premillenialists thought Hitler was doing God's will because they thought He was bringing judgements on the Jews for their rejection of Christ.
God is God and can do what He wants but I can't see people like Hitler and Stalin as God ordained leaders.
So God did not appoint them? yes/no? If I may ask?
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 10:02 PM
Come on now Brother please answer--yes or no.
That was my answer "brother"
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 10:03 PM
The word of God makes it clear that he and he alone appoints all authority.
And we are the instruments which he has chosen to use to appoint authority in this country.
And we are the instruments which he has chosen to use to appoint authority in this country.
I don't see that in scripture.
Scott Hutchinson
10-11-2007, 10:05 PM
Rudy to be honest with you I don't see Hitler Or Stalin appointed by God.
The principle of leadership is appointed by God,but I don't see every individual leader as God-ordained.
Rudy to be honest with you I don't see Hitler Or Stalin appointed by God.
The principle of leadership is appointed by God,but I don't see every individual leader as God-ordained.
Will this help.
God rules the nations and appoints authority.
Here we see where God appoints all authority.
Romans 13
Submit to Government
Obey Authorities; Love Your Neighbor; Put on Christ
1. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is noauthority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves
Col 1:16-17
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Job 34:24 (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=34&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry, and sets others in their place.
Daniel 4:17 (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=4&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
"This decision is by the decree of the watchers, And the sentence by the word of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, Gives it to whomever He will, And sets over it the lowest of men.'
Psa 75: 6-7. 6. For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.
7But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
Dan 2:21. And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth upkings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
1 Peter 3:22 (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=3&verse=22&version=50&context=verse)
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
John 19:9-11 (New King James Version
(http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=30)
9 and went again into the Praetorium, and said to Jesus, “Where are You from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?” 11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
Psalm 103:19 The LORD has established His throne in the heavens; And His sovereignty rules over all.
Scott Hutchinson
10-11-2007, 10:14 PM
Rudy I haven't got time right now but if those verses are broken down in their proper contexts and looked at in their original settings there are quite alot of things to learn from them.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 10:15 PM
The original premise of the thread which you obviously are in opposition to has to do with legalizing same sex marriage, not banning it. By your actions you obviously take umbrage with that. But by following your logic God placed those in power who have chosen NOT to pass such law. Therefore by maintaining the status quo we are supporting God.
Same question to you Rudy that your bud refuses to answer.
By YOUR logic isn't maintaining the status quo supporting God?
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 10:17 PM
The original premise of the thread which you obviously are in opposition to has to do with legalizing same sex marriage, not banning it. By your actions you obviously take umbrage with that. But by following your logic God placed those in power who have chosen NOT to pass such law. Therefore by maintaining the status quo we are supporting God.
James Griffin,
I am apposed to sin. And I am not against voting. But I do not think we are doing Gods will to outlaw same sex maggiages, and leaving homosexuals hiding in their closets. If we are going to truely change the world, it is going to be because the holy spirit is working through us, and we are showing the agape love of God to them which are lost. So to me, while it might seem like we are doing righteous to vote sin out of america, we are really not doing Gods business. His business is to change their hearts from darkness, and fill them with his love. This is what the world needs not more rules, but more Jesus
Rhoni
10-11-2007, 10:17 PM
Will this help.
God rules the nations and appoints authority.
Here we see where God appoints all authority.
Romans 13
Submit to Government
Obey Authorities; Love Your Neighbor; Put on Christ
1. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is noauthority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves
Col 1:16-17
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Job 34:24 (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=34&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry, and sets others in their place.
Daniel 4:17 (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=4&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
"This decision is by the decree of the watchers, And the sentence by the word of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, Gives it to whomever He will, And sets over it the lowest of men.'
Psa 75: 6-7. 6. For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.
7But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
Dan 2:21. And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth upkings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
1 Peter 3:22 (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=3&verse=22&version=50&context=verse)
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
John 19:9-11 (New King James Version
9 and went again into the Praetorium, and said to Jesus, “Where are You from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?” 11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
Psalm 103:19 The LORD has established His throne in the heavens; And His sovereignty rules over all.
Sounds like you inserted humanistic philosphy in there brother...just like the devil to twist the scriptures, adding words here and there to deceive. You need to be careful. I am not sure what your agenda is but it isn't a Christlike spirit that I feel.
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 10:19 PM
Sounds like you inserted humanistic philosphy in there brother...just like the devil to twist the scriptures, adding words here and there to deceive. You need to be careful. I am not sure what your agenda is but it isn't a Christlike spirit that I feel.
Rhony,
You should not call someone a devil. How is that being a christian?
Sounds like you inserted humanistic philosphy in there brother...just like the devil to twist the scriptures, adding words here and there to deceive. You need to be careful. I am not sure what your agenda is but it isn't a Christlike spirit that I feel.
Humanistic? Show where there is twisted scripture. Adding words?
Rhoni
10-11-2007, 10:21 PM
Rhony,
You should not call someone a devil. How is that being a christian?
Twisting words again I see...that is the agenda I am talking about. The GLB agenda is to muddy the water and make the good appear bad. I resist that spirit.
In Jesus name, Rhoni
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 10:23 PM
James Griffin,
I am apposed to sin. And I am not against voting. But I do not think we are doing Gods will to outlaw same sex maggiages, and leaving homosexuals hiding in their closets. If we are going to truely change the world, it is going to be because the holy spirit is working through us, and we are showing the agape love of God to them which are lost. So to me, while it might seem like we are doing righteous to vote sin out of america, we are really not doing Gods business. His business is to change their hearts from darkness, and fill them with his love. This is what the world needs not more rules, but more Jesus
And once again you mis-state the issue, there is not a move afoot to BAN it, there is a move afoot to LEGALIZE IT. And you obviously would like to see it legalized, your speech betrays you. And in order to legalize it your's and Rudy's argument fall apart because it would require a vote to change God's government. OR on the other side you honestly believe it to be sin, and you have a duty to be used of God to vote on the proposal so either way Check and mate.
Night children.
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 10:25 PM
Twisting words again I see...that is the agenda I am talking about. The GLB agenda is to muddy the water and make the good appear bad. I resist that spirit.
In Jesus name, Rhoni
Rhony,
first you say that Rudy is putting humanistic teaching and inply that he is tristing scripure, and say its just like the devil to twist scripture. now you are saying I am twisting, so I guess you are calling me a devil to??
I think the spirit you are resisting is the one you need to welcome.
Rhoni
10-11-2007, 10:27 PM
Rhony,
first you say that Rudy is putting humanistic teaching and inply that he is tristing scripure, and say its just like the devil to twist scripture. now you are saying I am twisting, so I guess you are calling me a devil to??
I think the spirit you are resisting is the one you need to welcome.
I have rebuked and resisted that spirit for years and I am not afraid...I know who you are and God has your number.
Blessings, Rhoni
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 10:31 PM
And once again you mis-state the issue, there is not a move afoot to BAN it, there is a move afoot to LEGALIZE IT. And you obviously would like to see it legalized, your speech betrays you. And in order to legalize it your's and Rudy's argument fall apart because it would require a vote to change God's government. OR on the other side you honestly believe it to be sin, and you have a duty to be used of God to vote on the proposal so either way Check and mate.
Night children.
James Griffin,
You are still missunderstanding me. I said I appose sin, so I am not for the sin of homosexuals. And I also said that I am not against voting against it. But I do believe that we are just pushing homosexuals back into the closet, and not dealing with the root of the problem. They need Jesus, not rules. Jesus is the only think that will make them change. No matter how many laws you pass, they will still be homosexual. So get filled with the agape love of God, and show them his love so they can find hope, and be changed by the holy spirt. Then you wont need to make all kinds of laws against them. All you are doing right now is putting a bandaid on the true problem. They don't know Jesus's love.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 10:33 PM
Posted by Ultralib
James Griffin,
You are still missunderstanding me. I said I appose sin, so I am not for the sin of homosexuals. And I also said that I am not against voting against it. But I do believe that we are just pushing homosexuals back into the closet, and not dealing with the root of the problem. They need Jesus, not rules. Jesus is the only think that will make them change. No matter how many laws you pass, they will still be homosexual. So get filled with the agape love of God, and show them his love so they can find hope, and be changed by the holy spirt. Then you wont need to make all kinds of laws against them. All you are doing right now is putting a bandaid on the true problem. They don't know Jesus's love.
Ultralib,,
B]And once again you misstate the issue, [/B]there is not a move afoot to BAN it, there is a move afoot to LEGALIZE IT. So in order to legalize it YOU WOULD HAVE TO MAKE A RULE IN FAVOR OF, And you obviously would like to see it legalized, your speech betrays you. And in order to legalize it your's and Rudy's argument fall apart because it would require a vote to change God's government. OR on the other side you honestly believe it to be sin, and you have a duty to be used of God to vote on the proposal so either way Check and mate.
Night children.
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 10:34 PM
I have rebuked and resisted that spirit for years and I am not afraid...I know who you are and God has your number.
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhony,
I now God has my number, cause I call him up on the main line all the time, and he has caller id. :pirate
Sisiter Rhony, I do not know what it troubling you, but I hope you can find peace and the agape love of God in your life. You sure are wound up tight.
And once again you mis-state the issue, there is not a move afoot to BAN it, there is a move afoot to LEGALIZE IT. And you obviously would like to see it legalized, your speech betrays you. And in order to legalize it your's and Rudy's argument fall apart because it would require a vote to change God's government. OR on the other side you honestly believe it to be sin, and you have a duty to be used of God to vote on the proposal so either way Check and mate.
Night children.
It has been illegal for a long time for the most part. Did it stop them from being gay?
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 10:38 PM
[
James Griffin,
You are still missunderstanding me. I said I appose sin, so I am not for the sin of homosexuals. And I also said that I am not against voting against it. But I do believe that we are just pushing homosexuals back into the closet, and not dealing with the root of the problem. They need Jesus, not rules. Jesus is the only think that will make them change. No matter how many laws you pass, they will still be homosexual. So get filled with the agape love of God, and show them his love so they can find hope, and be changed by the holy spirt. Then you wont need to make all kinds of laws against them. All you are doing right now is putting a bandaid on the true problem. They don't know Jesus's love.
And once again you misstate the issue, there is not a move afoot to BAN it, there is a move afoot to LEGALIZE IT. So in order to legalize it YOU WOULD HAVE TO MAKE A RULE IN FAVOR OF, And you obviously would like to see it legalized, your speech betrays you. And in order to legalize it your's and Rudy's argument fall apart because it would require a vote to change God's government. OR on the other side you honestly believe it to be sin, and you have a duty to be used of God to vote on the proposal so either way Check and mate.
Night children.
James griffin,
I do not understand your posting this again. I have not said that this world is Gods government, and is Gods government. I have not stated that they are trying to ban it, but i would vote for it to be banned if so. But I do say that the real change that is needed is found in Jesus.
Good night dad. :)
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 10:42 PM
It has been illegal for a long time for the most part. Did it stop them from being gay?
Rudy for the last time your argument is self-contradictory. By using YOUR ARGUMENT the government is in place at the sole will of God. Therefore using YOUR ARGUMENT the status quo is the will of God and voting to change would be by YOUR ARGUMENT fighting God.
Now I hope you see how tenuous, specious, and hopeless that position is, to which you have backed yourself into a corner.
Unless you are of course NOW doing a 180 degree change and saying the status quo is NOT God's will and we should vote to change it.
Really, try and pick a side and stay with it for at least a couple posts.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 10:47 PM
James griffin,
I do not understand your posting this again. I have not said that this world is Gods government, and is Gods government. I have not stated that they are trying to ban it, but i would vote for it to be banned if so. But I do say that the real change that is needed is found in Jesus.
Good night dad. :)
Good for you!!!!!!! Now explain to Rudy why you do not think it is wrong to vote, and you agree that it should be banned.
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 10:53 PM
James Griffin,
I live in this world, so I do not believe it is wrong to vote. But because I am not of this world, I understand that there is a higher law, and that is the law of the holy spirit, which is love. and that is the one I really want the homosexuals to see. Not a vote to stop them, but the spirit to change them.
If rudy says that God is in control of the government, and the government is allowing sin, then God is allowing sin, right?
Rudy for the last time your argument is self-contradictory. By using YOUR ARGUMENT the government is in place at the sole will of God. Therefore using YOUR ARGUMENT the status quo is the will of God and voting to change would be by YOUR ARGUMENT fighting God.
Now I hope you see how tenuous, specious, and hopeless that position is, to which you have backed yourself into a corner.
Unless you are of course NOW doing a 180 degree change and saying the status quo is NOT God's will and we should vote to change it.
Really, try and pick a side and stay with it for at least a couple posts.
No, not fighting God. You are trying to make this secular world a holy one through law. It cannot happen. Did God save you? Did he not give you authority? Have you walked the line and never sinned since you've been saved? Because someone is appointed by God does not mean they are holy. We (the body of Christ are made perfect through Christ) this is the difference. Political christiananity is trying to make the secular world into the image of Christ through law. God is in control of them. WE are INSTRUCTED ONLY to PRAY FOR THEM. God rules in the kingdom of men and judgement is coming. The appointed authority by God does not mean he has appointed sinnless men and women.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 10:57 PM
Please read post #96 where YOU said YOU would vote to ban same sex marriage!
UltraLib
10-11-2007, 11:05 PM
Please read post #96 where YOU said YOU would vote to ban same sex marriage!
James Griffin,
That was my post, and I did say I would ban it because I live in this world. The bible says that when the righteous rules the people rejoice. I like to rejoice, so I will vote for those that stand for righteousness.
But I also am not of this world, but of a heavenly world. I am an embassador to this world. I represintative of Jesus Christ, so I wil also do my part to reach out to those in sin and try and allow them to see the agape love of God in me. This to me is the greater vote, that they will not just be pushed down but changed.
So while I will do my part to keep righteous men in rule, I will also strive for the greater good, the saving of a soul.
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 11:07 PM
No, not fighting God. You are trying to make this secular world a holy one through law. It cannot happen. Did God save you? Did he not give you authority? Have you walked the line and never sinned since you've been saved? Because someone is appointed by God does not mean they are holy. We (the body of Christ are made perfect through Christ) this is the difference. Political christiananity is trying to make the secular world into the image of Christ through law. God is in control of them. WE are INSTRUCTED ONLY to PRAY FOR THEM. God rules in the kingdom of men and judgement is coming. The appointed authority by God does not mean he has appointed sinnless men and women.
Rudy, last time, please try and read very slowly. The homosexuals are the ones trying to pass the law. Therefore THEY by your argument are fighting against THEIR GOD appointed leaders. No one on this thread but Ultraliberal has said that they wanted to ban it. And even your buddy Ultraliberal states that it is sin. By your logic we should not pass any law. By your logic the penal code should be banned, is not the entire body of criminal law society's attempt at legislated morality. Really, seriously thanks for the sophomoric humor. Ban all laws? That is the only possible outcome to your logic... :scorebad
Rudy, last time, please try and read very slowly. The homosexuals are the ones trying to pass the law. Therefore THEY by your argument are fighting against THEIR GOD appointed leaders. No one on this thread but Ultraliberal has said that they wanted to ban it. And even your buddy Ultraliberal states that it is sin. By your logic we should not pass any law. By your logic the penal code should be banned, is not the entire body of criminal law society's attempt at legislated morality. Really, seriously thanks for the sophomoric humor. Ban all laws? That is the only possible outcome to your logic... :scorebad
God ordained HUMAN goverment. Where did I say to ban all laws? The laws that be are not of my concern. You think it is your responsibility to legislate laws to save mankind.
Is God not in control of human government? Does he make mistakes in his appointments? Did he make a mistake appointing President Clinton? Your argument suggest God is not in control therefore we must intervene.
Who will you vote for if Rudy or Hillary is on the ticket? Tell me who God wants in there?
stmatthew
10-11-2007, 11:29 PM
God ordained HUMAN goverment. Where did I say to ban all laws? The laws that be are not of my concern. You think it is your responsibility to legislate laws to save mankind.
Is God not in control of human government? Does he make mistakes in his appointments? Did he make a mistake appointing President Clinton? Your argument suggest God is not in control therefore we must intervene.
Who will you vote for if Rudy or Hillary is on the ticket? Tell me who God wants in there?
If God is in control of our human government, and doesn't want our input, why has he allowed people submitted to this "GOD controlled" government to have VOTING RIGHTS? And if one refused to vote, are they refusing to do their responsibility that is given to them by this "GOD controlled" government?
James Griffin
10-11-2007, 11:41 PM
God ordained HUMAN goverment. Where did I say to ban all laws? The laws that be are not of my concern. You think it is your responsibility to legislate laws to save mankind.
Is God not in control of human government? Does he make mistakes in his appointments? Did he make a mistake appointing President Clinton? Your argument suggest God is not in control therefore we must intervene.
Who will you vote for if Rudy or Hillary is on the ticket? Tell me who God wants in there?
Dear Rudy, you stated that we should not attempt to legislate morality therefore you obviously feel we should not have a penal code or any criminal law. Laws are not made for salvation of soul, but they most certainly ARE made for the preservation of culture. "The laws that be" obviously are of your concern because you want to change them to allow same sex marriage.
You are ignoring the reality that it is a homosexual agenda to pass laws to change the status quo. If you truly are of the opinion that "the laws that be are not of my concern" and you feel the laws in place should not be changed then good for you, we all agree.
Trouvere
10-11-2007, 11:41 PM
The total population of GLB in the USA is only approx. 2%. But for the past 10 years, I have gone to college with them, to church with them, worked with and for them. Most of them are lovely people and my heart goes out to them for all the heartache they have had to endure to get to where they are.
I wish I knew exactly how to minister to them but until God enlightens me, I can only love them and fight their agenda without hating them.
Again, Sincerely, Rhoni
I am praying and trying my best to minister in this area.You have to love and not waver is all.I am loving people and not caring about anything but each individual.
Rhoni
10-12-2007, 05:38 AM
I am praying and trying my best to minister in this area.You have to love and not waver is all.I am loving people and not caring about anything but each individual.
Sis, I admire your position, it is the same position I take. Love does not mean allowing yourself to be stepped on or your rights to be taken away to make those who live in sin more comfortable.
Through the years we have prayed for many an unsaved spouse and the saved spouse did not stay home from church or participate in their sin to win them. They stood firm for what they believed, lived the life in front of them, and stood against sin.
My father was an alcoholic but my mother would not allow him to bring alcohol into our home. There were 5 children there. We prayed for him, lived the life in front of him, and when the drinking got so bad...my mother had to separate herself and us from him and the environment. Before my father died he had stopped drinking and had come to God and was baptized.
I said all that to say...true love from God does not excuse the sin but loves the sinner, prays, and catches them when they fall. It does not say, "It's all right to sin let's make it legal, and while we're at it let's love the GLB by showing them whatever they do is all right with us". In Romans, Paul tells us that the Grace of God does not give us license to sin. But if we sin...we have an advocate with the father through Jesus Christ. Repentence is changing our mind about something and our behavior. This goes for the GLB also.
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni
10-12-2007, 05:51 AM
What has happened on this thread models what I stated is happening in New Jersey right now:
The topic, title of thread, discussed the legislative work in the State of New Jersey. A millionaire has contributed $15,000,000.00 to distroy the lives of those in office who would be pro-marriage, not by attacking their stand against legalized Gay & Lesbian marriages/unions [the total population in America of Gays & Lesbians only being approx. 2%], but finding out where they are sensitive and going after them where it hurts.
Sisiter Rhony, I do not know what it troubling you, but I hope you can find peace and the agape love of God in your life. You sure are wound up tight.
Notice:
UltraLib disrespectfully has spelled my name wrong and alluded to me:
1) not having peave and agape love in my life and,
2) that I am wound up tight.
The intent and meaning of this thread has been overshadowed by Rudy and UltraLib's agenda...and what might that be?
The same can be said for my thread about needing a break to come of my hormone replacement in order to diet. It has pages and pages of defending a Canadian who obviously attacked me and shrouded it in hugs and kisses.
The main thing is never really the main thing now is it?
In God's Grip, Rhoni
Dear Rudy, you stated that we should not attempt to legislate morality therefore you obviously feel we should not have a penal code or any criminal law. Laws are not made for salvation of soul, but they most certainly ARE made for the preservation of culture. "The laws that be" obviously are of your concern because you want to change them to allow same sex marriage.
You are ignoring the reality that it is a homosexual agenda to pass laws to change the status quo. If you truly are of the opinion that "the laws that be are not of my concern" and you feel the laws in place should not be changed then good for you, we all agree.
It is not that I want to allow same sex marriage. It is that it does not effect God's order concerning the Body of Christ. The world can pass laws all they want. Those in Christ will be just that, in Christ. Political Christianity seeks to intervene without being asked. Political Christianity wants to force itself on non-believers. Political Christianity is in panic thinking "Oh MY" the world is falling apart. Political Christianity denies God is in control of human government. God will end sinful practices on his time table not ours.
Ask yourself this question, can you name just one U.S. president that God did not appoint? You can't and you dare not try. Political Christianity is playing a dangerous role in trying to challenge God's appointments.
Sis, I admire your position, it is the same position I take. Love does not mean allowing yourself to be stepped on or your rights to be taken away to make those who live in sin more comfortable.
Through the years we have prayed for many an unsaved spouse and the saved spouse did not stay home from church or participate in their sin to win them. They stood firm for what they believed, lived the life in front of them, and stood against sin.
My father was an alcoholic but my mother would not allow him to bring alcohol into our home. There were 5 children there. We prayed for him, lived the life in front of him, and when the drinking got so bad...my mother had to separate herself and us from him and the environment. Before my father died he had stopped drinking and had come to God and was baptized.
I said all that to say...true love from God does not excuse the sin but loves the sinner, prays, and catches them when they fall. It does not say, "It's all right to sin let's make it legal, and while we're at it let's love the GLB by showing them whatever they do is all right with us". In Romans, Paul tells us that the Grace of God does not give us license to sin. But if we sin...we have an advocate with the father through Jesus Christ. Repentence is changing our mind about something and our behavior. This goes for the GLB also.
Blessings, Rhoni
What the world makes legal or not legal has no bearing on what Christ expects of those in the Body. You seem to think man-made laws will destroy God's people. Absolutely no where did anyone say "It's alright to sin let's make it legal".
However, what ever the GLB agenda does is not the Church's business period. WE are only to judge those in the Body of Christ. If they ask then we will tell them what God has to say about it. Political Christianity believes in forcing righteousness on unbelievers. What the world does or doesn't do is Our Lords business.. The earth is his foot stool, he's in charge of them.
James Griffin
10-12-2007, 10:24 AM
It is not that I want to allow same sex marriage. It is that it does not effect God's order concerning the Body of Christ. The world can pass laws all they want. Those in Christ will be just that, in Christ. Political christiananity seeks to intervene without being asked. Political Christiananity wants to force itself on non-believers. Political Christiananity is in panic thinking "Oh MY" the world is falling apart. Political Christiananity denies God is in control of human government. God will end sinful practices on his time table not ours.
Ask yourself this question, can you name just one U.S. president that God did not appoint? You can't and you dare not try. Political Christiananity is playing a dangerous role in trying to challenge God's appointments.
Christians while not of the world are still in the world. As individual citizens of this country they have a right to influence their own government. Passing laws will not save souls because being a good moral person is not salvation, that only comes through the redemptive blood of Christ. HOWEVER, your comments here have repeatedly suggested that because a citizen happens to be a Christian that they should refuse to have an opinion or take any action in either the workings of government or voting on its body of law. (Which would result in the laws of this country being written without the input by those of Judeo-Christian values)
Just because I have heavenly citizenship does not rob me of my American one . Laws are passed to govern human conduct. Our society has decided that in its best interest it is necessary to govern both certain individual conduct and even conduct between consenting adults ranging from incest to conspiracy to commit tax evasion.
It is remarkable that the ones who protest against a Christian exercising their rights as American citizens have either an overt or hidden agenda to either legalize or decriminalize a behavior that the majority of the citizenry of this republic oppose. As Christians we cannot and should not elevate political movements above our primary mission. But to suggest a Christian should have no say in the civil governance of their country?
Christians while not of the world are still in the world. As individual citizens of this country they have a right to influence their own government. Passing laws will not save souls because being a good moral person is not salvation, that only comes through the redemptive blood of Christ. HOWEVER, your comments here have repeatedly suggested that because a citizen happens to be a Christian that they should refuse to have an opinion or take any action in either the workings of government or voting on its body of law. (Which would result in the laws of this country being written without the input by those of Judeo-Christian values)
Just because I have heavenly citizenship does not rob me of my American one . Laws are passed to govern human conduct. Our society has decided that in its best interest it is necessary to govern both certain individual conduct and even conduct between consenting adults ranging from incest to conspiracy to commit tax evasion.
It is remarkable that the ones who protest against a Christian exercising their rights as American citizens have either an overt or hidden agenda to either legalize or decriminalize a behavior that the majority of the citizenry of this republic oppose. As Christians we cannot and should not elevate political movements above our primary mission. But to suggest a Christian should have no say in the civil governance of their country?
Our job is to teach and preach the good news. I did not necessarily say "no say in civil governance" obviously if the opportunity presents itself we should make God's opinion known IF they seek our advice from a Christian stand point of view. Political Christianity denies God is in charge of world affairs. Therefore we must intervene because God's appointments are failing is in essence what they are saying. Political Christianity believes we are serving an "oops" God. Oop's God they just passed roe vs wade. What shall we do? Oops God the GLB agenda passed what shall we do? God knows the future, he is Alpha and Omega, the earth is his foot stool. God is not in panic, why should we be?
James Griffin
10-12-2007, 10:56 AM
Our job is to teach and preach the good news. I did not necessarily say "no say in civil governance" obviously if the opportunity presents itself we should make God's opinion known IF they seek our advice from a Christian stand point of view. Political Christianity denies God is in charge of world affairs. Therefore we must intervene because God's appointments are failing is in essence what they are saying. Political Christianity believes we are serving an "oops" God. Oop's God they just passed roe vs wade. What shall we do? Oops God the GLB agenda passed what shall we do? God knows the future, he is Alpha and Omega, the earth is his foot stool. God is not in panic, why should we be?
Actually you repeatedly said exactly that, Christians have no business voting.
Rudy, one of the main "opportunities" by which we do exactly that is by voting.
Thank you for finally coming around to that realization.
That means nothing further to discuss. :hypercoffee
I vote. And what is more, I do my best to bully people into voting the way I want them to!
Rhoni
10-12-2007, 06:30 PM
Our job is to teach and preach the good news. I did not necessarily say "no say in civil governance" obviously if the opportunity presents itself we should make God's opinion known IF they seek our advice from a Christian stand point of view. Political Christianity denies God is in charge of world affairs. Therefore we must intervene because God's appointments are failing is in essence what they are saying. Political Christianity believes we are serving an "oops" God. Oop's God they just passed roe vs wade. What shall we do? Oops God the GLB agenda passed what shall we do? God knows the future, he is Alpha and Omega, the earth is his foot stool. God is not in panic, why should we be?
Rudy,
It is obvious to me what your agenda is and many of us are not part of the church at Laodicea. You trying to rock the church to sleep? It isn't happening on my watch. If you are not for evangelism and the work of kingdom ministries then you aren't one of us.:reaper
Blessings, Rhoni
Scott Hutchinson
10-12-2007, 06:35 PM
I vote. And what is more, I do my best to bully people into voting the way I want them to!
Are you a Wooly Bully ?
Rudy,
It is obvious to me what your agenda is and many of us are not part of the church at Laodicea. You trying to rock the church to sleep? It isn't happening on my watch. If you are not for evangelism and the work of kingdom ministries then you aren't one of us.:reaper
Blessings, Rhoni
Your Watch? What are you in charge of?
Actually you repeatedly said exactly that, Christians have no business voting.
Rudy, one of the main "opportunities" by which we do exactly that is by voting.
Thank you for finally coming around to that realization.
That means nothing further to discuss. :hypercoffee
Col 1:16-17
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
pelathais
10-12-2007, 11:46 PM
Your Watch? What are you in charge of?
Someone who man's a watch is seldom in charge of anything. They are doing the "grunt" work. It's their job to sound an alarm when a threat is seen.
If the people were to try and exercise power in NT times they would have had to use murder and riot to gain control. When democracies arose, many Christians were so startled by it that they abandoned their futurist interpretations of Bible prophecy and proclaimed that a "New World Order" had come into existence. Sir Isaac Newton and George Washington are examples of these men.
Whatever eschatology you choose for today, as a Christian living in a democracy you must accept responsibility for your governance. Even Osama Bin Laden holds you accountable for this.
So God created the "powers that be" to exercise rule upon the earth. But guess what? In America you are "the power that is!" Just as God judged the Kings of OT Israel for their use and abuse of power, so also will you be judged. If you want to be the kind of servant that takes his power and buries it in the ground then, so be it. After all, our Master is an austere man, reaping where he has not sown and gathering where he has not strawed. But what will you say to Him when He returns?
"'They' passed roe v. wade? 'They' passed the GBL agenda?" But the Master will want to know what you did with the power He trusted you with. He sets up the powers that be, and He has set up this democracy. You are "the king" as much as anyone else around here.
Rhoni
10-13-2007, 08:16 AM
Someone who man's a watch is seldom in charge of anything. They are doing the "grunt" work. It's their job to sound an alarm when a threat is seen.
If the people were to try and exercise power in NT times they would have had to use murder and riot to gain control. When democracies arose, many Christians were so startled by it that they abandoned their futurist interpretations of Bible prophecy and proclaimed that a "New World Order" had come into existence. Sir Isaac Newton and George Washington are examples of these men.
Whatever eschatology you choose for today, as a Christian living in a democracy you must accept responsibility for your governance. Even Osama Bin Laden holds you accountable for this.
So God created the "powers that be" to exercise rule upon the earth. But guess what? In America you are "the power that is!" Just as God judged the Kings of OT Israel for their use and abuse of power, so also will you be judged. If you want to be the kind of servant that takes his power and buries it in the ground then, so be it. After all, our Master is an austere man, reaping where he has not sown and gathering where he has not strawed. But what will you say to Him when He returns?
"'They' passed roe v. wade? 'They' passed the GBL agenda?" But the Master will want to know what you did with the power He trusted you with. He sets up the powers that be, and He has set up this democracy. You are "the king" as much as anyone else around here.
POTD
Excellent job Pelathais!
Blessings, Rhoni
Someone who man's a watch is seldom in charge of anything. They are doing the "grunt" work. It's their job to sound an alarm when a threat is seen.
If the people were to try and exercise power in NT times they would have had to use murder and riot to gain control. When democracies arose, many Christians were so startled by it that they abandoned their futurist interpretations of Bible prophecy and proclaimed that a "New World Order" had come into existence. Sir Isaac Newton and George Washington are examples of these men.
Whatever eschatology you choose for today, as a Christian living in a democracy you must accept responsibility for your governance. Even Osama Bin Laden holds you accountable for this.
So God created the "powers that be" to exercise rule upon the earth. But guess what? In America you are "the power that is!" Just as God judged the Kings of OT Israel for their use and abuse of power, so also will you be judged. If you want to be the kind of servant that takes his power and buries it in the ground then, so be it. After all, our Master is an austere man, reaping where he has not sown and gathering where he has not strawed. But what will you say to Him when He returns?
"'They' passed roe v. wade? 'They' passed the GBL agenda?" But the Master will want to know what you did with the power He trusted you with. He sets up the powers that be, and He has set up this democracy. You are "the king" as much as anyone else around here.
O.k. you and Rhoni tell me who God wants to be President when it is time to vote so I will know.
pelathais
10-13-2007, 01:06 PM
O.k. you and Rhoni tell me who God wants to be President when it is time to vote so I will know.
That's the paradox that is introduced by God having chosen to place a democracy in power in this land. We get to choose; and we have to live with the choices we make. And if we just have want to hunker down in our bunker awaiting the End of the World®, then we have to live with the fact that we didn't help to make the right kinds of choices.
That's a democracy. It's frustrating, but we have no one to blame but God and ourselves. Of course, I hear that Russia is trying to increase their population. Since God has given you the freedom, how about taking this Gospel to the Russian people and living under their system? It's still a one party rule, despite the veneer. One party rule will help you to understand who God wants you to vote for a little more easily. Cuba offers the same choice.
Pack your bags. There are Christians in Iran, A.D. Urshan himself once preached there. And it appears that "God" has already done all the thinking for you as far as who rules there.
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