Why aren't there more African Americans in the UPC or the leadership of the UPC???

[Carpenter]

There is a precious young AA* lady in our church who recently married a PAW fella from out of state and it caused me to ask this question. Why on earth would any AA family with children want to join up with the UPC?

This young lady's mom was an Olympic sprinter and has a college degree, and in my mind would have been a wonderful catch for any man.

You also don't see any (to my knowledge) any AA's in the UPC leadership.

Why is that?



*African American

[Sandra]

It has always been a very racist organization. In New Orleans John Cupit has his white church and his black church.
My father was always troubled by the racism in the UPC.

[DividedThigh]

well i obviously cant speak for the organization, but after being around for over 37 years, two observations, most of the upc churches dont have a lot of americans of african descent in them, and also most of the people i know who are americans of african descent go to black pentecostal churches by choice, this is my experience , especially in the south, dt:hypercoffee

[Digging4Truth]

The UPC church I attend is pretty much half black & half white.

[chaotic_resolve]

I was strongly at odds with a few posters here when I suggested that a certain minister on the youth committee would never be the GYD Youth President because the full body of ministers in the UPC would never vote him into that position.

I gave a challenge and am still waiting for these men to answer on one minority, specifically a black man or woman who has been voted in, by the full body of ministers, to a major department position. ie HMD, FMD, General Sup, Asst Sup, GYD YP, Ladies President, etc.

Thus far the silence is deafening . . .

[Ferd]

Sunday has always been the most segregated day of the week in America.

By and large, I know pastors that would love to reach out to the AA community but if they do they know they will have a war on their hands in their church. I have seen that happen.

in the beginning the UPCI was a very white organization founded in the midst of a racisit society. Many pastors werent racist but understood that it was just better for the PAW and UPCI to exist beside each other.

in recent years, I believe there have been moves by leadership to correct a lot of that, but we are 40 years behind.

The good news is that there are places like my church where the congregation is very mixed. we are approaching 1/3 white, 1/3 black 1/3 hispanic. We also have a good number of Asians as well. We have a Burmese work that meets seperately at our church that is running 100+. That is by their choice and many of them also come to our regular services.

[DividedThigh]

The UPC church I attend is pretty much half black & half white.

our church which is in the north has many black members also, and a lot of the churches in the north that i am familiar with have the same thing, i believe all people should be looked at as just that people, regardless of ethnicity, the church of god is just that the church, all of us make up the body, dt:hypercoffee

[ReformedDave]

Why isn't there more white leadership in the PAW and the Apostolic Assemblies?

[DividedThigh]

Why isn't there more white leadership in the PAW and the Apostolic Assemblies?

that is a very good question my friend, and i believe it goes back to choice, there are and will remain organizations that are divided in some way , i was wondering when someone would ask that, dt:hypercoffee

[SoCaliUPC]

Carp...you need to come out WEST. The churches here are very multi-cultural.

You would need to ask the ministerial brethren why they have not voted more African-Americans in...however, I do not think it all has to do with race. There seems to be more diversity among the General Youth Board then other boards at HQ.

[LadyRev]

In the little town of Covington TN exists a rarity.

A church founded and pastored by a woman...a white woman. The congregation is and always has been 99-100% black. Its still there. Been there for years. As far as I know, Sis. Dolly Willingham is still pastoring it but she was having some health problems.

No one loves their pastor more than these people. Their services are awesome and they get with it like many white folks can only dream of doing. Its something to see and experience.

Sis. Willingham's deceased husband did not want any part of a black church so he attended the church I went to in nearby Millington.

The Millington church has always been mixed. Its not half and half but it has always had a good number of african americans.

Covington has another UPC church that was all white years ago and remains 99% white to this day. This church existed first and story goes that years ago blacks were not welcome there.

Sis. Willingham, originally out of the Millington church under Pastor Hazel Simpson's ministry, felt a burden for the blacks in the area and began the work in Covington.

Many evangelists have passed through and preached for Sis. Willingham. They all tell stories of awesome revival services and the incredible love and loyalty of a black congregation to a white woman pastor who loves them just as much.

[Digging4Truth]

I think this....

There are differences in culture between blacks & whites & hispanics etc. When a church is predominately black, predominately white, predominately hispanic etc then that church more truly reflects the culture of that group.

Now there should be no qualms whatsoever when anyone from another race comes to our churches. If you have a negative feeling when you see someone from another race come into your church then you might want to do a little soul searching.

But to say that it is a "racist" thing for there to be a predominately black church, predominately white church etc is to "pre"judge the situation. (And isn't that the definition of prejudice?)

Blacks may have a church that is predominately their race because they want to worship in the fashion that is most reflective of who they are as a person. They same may go for hispanics, asians, whites etc.

That, in and of itself, is not a problem and does not necessarily denote racism.

The problem comes in when someone from another race walks into your church and you have a problem with that.

For there to be a "black" church and a "white" church in town is not necessarily a sign of racism. It could be no more than a sign of people of varying cultural makeups gathering together with people of like precious faith and who have similar worship styles.

To want churches to combine just because one doesn't like the "segregation" that they think they see is to force 2 distinct cultures to combine and, possibly in the end, lose the uniqueness of both.

[DividedThigh]

I think this....

There are differences in culture between blacks & whites & hispanics etc. When a church is predominately black, predominately white, predominately hispanic etc then that church more truly reflects the culture of that group.

Now there should be no qualms whatsoever when anyone from another race comes to our churches. If you have a negative feeling when you see someone from another race come into your church then you might want to do a little soul searching.

But to say that it is a "racist" thing for there to be a predominately black church, predominately white church etc is to "pre"judge the situation. (And isn't that the definition of prejudice?)

Blacks may have a church that is predominately their race because they want to worship in the fashion that is most reflective of who they are as a person. They same may go for hispanics, asians, whites etc.

That, in and of itself, is not a problem and does not necessarily denote racism.

The problem comes in when someone from another race walks into your church and you have a problem with that.

For there to be a "black" church and a "white" church in town is not necessarily a sign of racism. It could be no more than a sign of people of varying cultural makeups gathering together with people of like precious faith and who have similar worship styles.

To want churches to combine just because one doesn't like the "segregation" that they think they see is to force 2 distinct cultures to combine and, possibly in the end, lose the uniqueness of both.

very well put my brother, wisdom beyond your years and understanding beyond most people, dt:hypercoffee

[Trouvere]

Our church is mixed but we live in a very racist area.Not the whites but the blacks.I work some place where its very evident and ugly.Sorry its not all the whites fault.Have you ever considered that an AA might not want to come to your church because you are white? I know you were not the one to enslave their great grandparents but feelings run deep and it takes alot of Holy Ghost to overcome years of hatred and ill feelings.

My BIL and SIL wanted a baby very much and gave money to the childrens home society but in five years never received a baby.She finally called them and threatened with a lawyer.They simply replied "Mrs.Cooper we don't have any white babies to give you and we want to put people in to be raised with their own ethnic culture." She said,"I will get a lawyer if you do not and want a baby no matter what culture it is." In one week they got the baby which is of Cuban parentage.My BIL is dark with black hair and this child is told she looks just like her dad all the time.People are strange and they like to pass along their prejudices.Its not all on the part of "the white people."
I have alot of black girlfriends who quite frankly don't want to attend a predominately white church.I like either because I grew up in an area that
was 90% black.To each his own I say.God knows all things.

[DividedThigh]

Our church is mixed but we live in a very racist area.Not the whites but the blacks.I work some place where its very evident and ugly.Sorry its not all the whites fault.Have you ever considered that an AA might not want to come to your church because you are white? I know you were not the one to enslave their great grandparents but feelings run deep and it takes alot of Holy Ghost to overcome years of hatred and ill feelings.

My BIL and SIL wanted a baby very much and gave money to the childrens home society but in five years never received a baby.She finally called them and threatened with a lawyer.They simply replied "Mrs.Cooper we don't have any white babies to give you and we want to put people in to be raised with their own ethnic culture." She said,"I will get a lawyer if you do not and want a baby no matter what culture it is." In one week they got the baby which is of Cuban parentage.My BIL is dark with black hair and this child is told she looks just like her dad all the time.People are strange and they like to pass along their prejudices.Its not all on the part of "the white people."
I have alot of black girlfriends who quite frankly don't want to attend a predominately white church.I like either because I grew up in an area that
was 90% black.To each his own I say.God knows all things.

amen sis, you have a great church there, good leaders who love all, dt:hypercoffee

[RevBuddy]

:stop

Digging4Truth:

Your views are alarming to me...it's this kind of thinking that has held the organization back tremendously...there's no wisdom here... "black" churches..."white" churches...you've got to be kidding me???

If this attitude wasn't so hurtful, it would be laughable. Generalizations are always just that, but in general, we have not be very welcoming of minorities. I've gone to "work days" at campgrounds and heard ethnic jokes told (from district leaders!)...I've heard district leaders use the "n" word.

Let's get real here...we got a long way to go on this issue...and we will continue to be held back by "black" church - "white" church thinking...

:banghead

[josh]

There is a precious young AA* lady in our church who recently married a PAW fella from out of state and it caused me to ask this question. Why on earth would any AA family with children want to join up with the UPC?

This young lady's mom was an Olympic sprinter and has a college degree, and in my mind would have been a wonderful catch for any man.

You also don't see any (to my knowledge) any AA's in the UPC leadership.

Why is that?



*African American

Hey, we heard you were coming down for a visit and were looking for you...

I guess OP scared you off!!!LOL

[Trouvere]

Thanks DT we do.I love it here.The church is fired up and praying.No matter who walks in the door they are welcome.One of the Sisters was traveling on a bus and met a man from Haiti and witnessed to him.He was a pastor.She shared Jesus Name Baptism.He went back to baptise his congregations.Congregations did you catch that? Our pastor is supposed to preach in his city for a conference coming up.She has gotten cancer and this man traveled back to pray with her and attend services here.God is good.
The ladies name is Sis.Charlotte Weber.

[Trouvere]

:stop

Digging4Truth:

Your views are alarming to me...it's this kind of thinking that has held the organization back tremendously...there's no wisdom here... "black" churches..."white" churches...you've got to be kidding me???

If this attitude wasn't so hurtful, it would be laughable. Generalizations are always just that, but in general, we have not be very welcoming of minorities. I've gone to "work days" at campgrounds and heard ethnic jokes told (from district leaders!)...I've heard district leaders use the "n" word.

Let's get real here...we got a long way to go on this issue...and we will continue to be held back by "black" church - "white" church thinking...

:banghead


I guess it depends who you hang around huh? Who is we?

[DividedThigh]

Thanks DT we do.I love it here.The church is fired up and praying.No matter who walks in the door they are welcome.One of the Sisters was traveling on a bus and met a man from Haiti and witnessed to him.He was a pastor.She shared Jesus Name Baptism.He went back to baptise his congregations.Congregations did you catch that? Our pastor is supposed to preach in his city for a conference coming up.She has gotten cancer and this man traveled back to pray with her and attend services here.God is good.
The ladies name is Sis.Charlotte Weber.

that is what i am talking about, go church, god bless you,dt:hypercoffee

[ReformedDave]

I think this....

There are differences in culture between blacks & whites & hispanics etc. When a church is predominately black, predominately white, predominately hispanic etc then that church more truly reflects the culture of that group.

Now there should be no qualms whatsoever when anyone from another race comes to our churches. If you have a negative feeling when you see someone from another race come into your church then you might want to do a little soul searching.

But to say that it is a "racist" thing for there to be a predominately black church, predominately white church etc is to "pre"judge the situation. (And isn't that the definition of prejudice?)

Blacks may have a church that is predominately their race because they want to worship in the fashion that is most reflective of who they are as a person. They same may go for hispanics, asians, whites etc.

That, in and of itself, is not a problem and does not necessarily denote racism.

The problem comes in when someone from another race walks into your church and you have a problem with that.

For there to be a "black" church and a "white" church in town is not necessarily a sign of racism. It could be no more than a sign of people of varying cultural makeups gathering together with people of like precious faith and who have similar worship styles.

To want churches to combine just because one doesn't like the "segregation" that they think they see is to force 2 distinct cultures to combine and, possibly in the end, lose the uniqueness of both.

Good post. In our assembly we have an elder who is pastor over a group of Laotian brothers and sisters. It is one of culture and language. However, we do get together on 'Fellowship Sunday' for worship and a meal.

[Trouvere]

Good post. In our assembly we have an elder who is pastor over a group of Laotian brothers and sisters. It is one of culture and language. However, we do get together on 'Fellowship Sunday' for worship and a meal.

Do they bring food? Count me in.

[ReformedDave]

Do they bring food? Count me in.

Lot's of it!!!!!.......I hate those meals....or is it my lack of control?!

[Trouvere]

Lot's of it!!!!!.......I hate those meals....or is it my lack of control?!

I love egg rolls too bad they are so high calorie.

[Hegavmelif]

It has always been a very racist organization. In New Orleans John Cupit has his white church and his black church.
My father was always troubled by the racism in the UPC.

The reason these situation exist in part is because the AA's want it that way. I know of a UPC church in Madison MS that runs over 400 and is at least 50% AA. You got it all wrong Sandra!!!

[SecretWarrior]

Why isn't there more white leadership in the PAW and the Apostolic Assemblies?



The PAW has had 2 White Presiding Bishops in their History.

One of these was in office for several years.

[Hegavmelif]

well i obviously cant speak for the organization, but after being around for over 37 years, two observations, most of the upc churches dont have a lot of americans of african descent in them, and also most of the people i know who are americans of african descent go to black pentecostal churches by choice, this is my experience , especially in the south, dt:hypercoffee

Exactly...by choice. Hence, the reason we have the PAW organization. AA want their own organization. Has nothing to do with racism. The people who yell racism are far more racist than the people they accuse of being racist. My personal opinion based on decades of observation!

[Sandra]

The reason these situation exist in part is because the AA's want it that way. I know of a UPC church in Madison MS that runs over 400 and is at least 50% AA. You got it all wrong Sandra!!!

I don't have it all wrong....I know this bothered my father. He was on the General Board and heard much. (thats all I will say)

[Hegavmelif]

Why isn't there more white leadership in the PAW and the Apostolic Assemblies?

There ya go! Excellent Question!!

There are by far way more AA members and leaders in the UPCI than there are White people in any ethnic organization...PAW's, Apostolica Assembly...etc.

[SecretWarrior]

There ya go! Excellent Question!!

There are by far way more AA members and leaders in the UPCI than there are White people in any ethnic organization...PAW's, Apostolica Assembly...etc.


Did you read my last post ??


The PAW has had not One, but 2 WHITE Presiding Bishops in their history.
how many BLACK General supt's Have we had in the UPC ??

[Hegavmelif]

I don't have it all wrong....I know this bothered my father. He was on the General Board and heard much. (thats all I will say)

What General Board would that be?

["GL"]

Those who think this is just a upc problem have their head in the sand. It's a problem in many, many organizations - especially in the South. It's not just churches, we see it reflected politically as well.

I'm white and I'm a minority in the upc church I pastor out West.

Many times, black people like to worship "with their own people." I only say this, because I've heard it from their mouths. I was recently at a larger church out here, which an AA family had left. They said that "there were not enough black people there." The husband told me that. I found it interesting that 1/3 of the praise singers the last time I visited were AA.

[josh]

Did you read my last post ??


The PAW has had not One, but 2 WHITE Presiding Bishops in their history.
who many BLACK General supt's Have we had in the UPC ??

Ummmm....let me guess....ZERO????

Sadly, though, there just haven't been enough black preachers either.

The wrong will only slowly be righted.

In my current fellowship there is no color barrier...thank the Lord.

[Hegavmelif]

Did you read my last post ??


The PAW has had not One, but 2 WHITE Presiding Bishops in their history.
who many BLACK General supt's Have we had in the UPC ??

Regardless, There are still more AA members and leaders/preachers in the UPCI than has ever existed in any of the other ethnic organizations. Period! In my city there is a UPCI church with a white pastor and an AA assistant pastor.

[SecretWarrior]

Regardless, There are still more AA members and leaders/preachers in the UPCI than has ever existed in any of the other ethnic organizations. Period! In my city there is a UPCI church with a white pastor and an AA assistant pastor.


And why is that ? It is historically Proven that whites rarely will sit under black Leadership. how many whites do you see attending a church pastored by a Black Vs. blacks attending and sitting under white leadership?

you still failed to answer my first question

[Consapostolic1]

I'm not UPC but I am black and have been to some of the UPC functions in the district in my area. I went to the Sr. camp for 3 nights, what I noticed was that there was about 400 young people and about 20 black young ppl in the bunch. I feel that alot of the young upc white ppl in this district don't know how to talk to black ppl. I guess they think just because someone is black that you have to speak to them differently or something. When the UPC family camp rolled around me and two other black friends from my church went. Sitting on the platform, all we saw were white faces. All the music played during the worship services was southern gospel. I strongly believe that the UPC district in my area has alot of racist ppl in it. The church I attend is a conservative ind. church I'd say that our church is 20% blk and even though my church has had blks attending it since the 80's we still have some racial issues come up. I think may have to do with what part of the country I live in, ppl here afraid of change.

[Sandra]

What General Board would that be?

The General Board of the UPC.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Sandra is right!
One of the main reasons I left the UPC was because of RACISM. These men in the GA District would say - What in the world are we gonna do with you? From the DS on down - they would say this to me at EVERY function - "What in the world are we gonna do with you"? I would say - "JUST LEAVE ME ALONE and I WILL BUILD A CHURCH"! They just could NOT do it - they had to keep messing with me until I just left!

Some diliked the fact that we built an International Church with more Africans than Americans. They had no idea how to "deal" with it so they brought a white pastor to town to build a "WHITE" Church - which is a pitiful excuse for a church even today and the UPC there (actually 2 of them) has not had their own building in YEARS!
Our International church there owns much property and has over 500 in it and just remodeled and built on!
The Church I now pastor is an International Church with over 70% Internationals from Jamaica, Haiti, Bahamas, Barbados, Trinidad, Guyana, Antigua, St. Lucia, Ghana, Nigeria, Puerto Rico, Trinidad, Mexico, Brazil, Japan, Korea, England and other nations. We have about 30% White Americans. We are International ON PURPOSE with flags of the nations around the top border of the church. Our Leadership, Elders, Deacons and Department heads reflect DIVERSITY and will reflect more in days to come. My Administrative Assistant is a Black American with Jamaican parents. We do this on purpose!
If you want an International Church or a church that reflects the community - you must put someone on your platform that is of a different color, race or nationality than you! It is not the easiest thing in the world to do - but you get what you put up on the platform!
Some of you wonder why you attract DINGBATS!!!!!!!!!!!!! ROFL!!!!!!!!!! Been there - Done that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

[Carpenter]

Carp...you need to come out WEST. The churches here are very multi-cultural.

You would need to ask the ministerial brethren why they have not voted more African-Americans in...however, I do not think it all has to do with race. There seems to be more diversity among the General Youth Board then other boards at HQ.

Actually when I went to Thad's church I was kind of surprised, none of the other UPC churches in Norcal have such a diversity of folks black and white.

I haven't been to a UPC church in SoCal in almost two decades...

[Carpenter]

Hey, we heard you were coming down for a visit and were looking for you...

I guess OP scared you off!!!LOL

Boy, I did my best to get out there. We were having some problems with folks here in our business. I didn't get home til 10pm on Sunday night.

[Carpenter]

And why is that ? It is historically Proven that whites rarely will sit under black Leadership. how many whites do you see attending a church pastored by a Black Vs. blacks attending and sitting under white leadership?

you still failed to answer my first question

oooh, this is a good question, I wonder if some men would rather sit under a woman than a Black pastor.


...welcome to the Democratic party!

LOL!! :pirate

[bishoph]

Exactly...by choice. Hence, the reason we have the PAW organization. AA want their own organization. Has nothing to do with racism. The people who yell racism are far more racist than the people they accuse of being racist. My personal opinion based on decades of observation!

With all due respect it is statements like this that show the deep rooted ignorance of disguised racism. (I am not say that HGML is racist) The PAW was not formed as a AA/Black organization. Rather it was a multicultural organization where people from every ethnicity could enjoy fellowship and true love. It was not until whites decided to divide that the organization became predominantly AA. The very root of the division was racism is what separated us many years ago and it still exists today.

I have preached extensively for black churches and organizations for more than 20 years, there is racism on both sides to be sure. However, I have been told by District Sups to leave those n's alone and come back to my people, I have been called a N lover and many other things throughout the years. I know first hand that there is an underlying root of racism that permeates the UPCI and many other "white" organizations including their leadership.

The true test of racism is whether or not my son can marry your daughter. Fred Price

[ThePastorsCoach]

With all due respect it is statements like this that show the deep rooted ignorance of disguised racism. (I am not say that HGML is racist) The PAW was not formed as a AA/Black organization. Rather it was a multicultural organization where people from every ethnicity could enjoy fellowship and true love. It was not until whites decided to divide that the organization became predominantly AA. The very root of the division was racism is what separated us many years ago and it still exists today.

I have preached extensively for black churches and organizations for more than 20 years, there is racism on both sides to be sure. However, I have been told by District Sups to leave those n's alone and come back to my people, I have been called a N lover and many other things throughout the years. I know first hand that there is an underlying root of racism that permeates the UPCI and many other "white" organizations including their leadership.

The true test of racism is whether or not my son can marry your daughter. Fred Price

This is so very true - let them little white UPC gals start even looking at a black guy and the family has to leave church or get outta town!

[Consapostolic1]

This is so very true - let them little white UPC gals start even looking at a black guy and the family has to leave church or get outta town!

So do most upc churches preach against mixed marriages with blacks?

[Truthseeker]

So do most upc churches preach against mixed marriages?

It's not so much mixed marriage they teach against but black/white marriage.

[Consapostolic1]

I never understood what makes it right for a person of Irish decent and a person of Indian decent to marry, but forbid if you let a person of african decent mix.

[Truthseeker]

"cause it's ok if our daughters marry an Irish/Indian but not one of them blacks!!!"




BTW no such thing as a mixed marriage in Gods eyes if both are in Christ.

[ThePastorsCoach]

It's not so much mixed marriage they teach against but black/white marriage.

True and some of them will not let the races mix in dating - Hispanic/white, Brazilian black/American or Bazillion white, and especially Black/White. I know some that will allow the white Asians to date white Americans but not Black Asians. It gets crazy when MEN have to be in charge of who dates who and who can marry. It is pure racism.

I did perform the wedding of a Liberian woman (black) to an American man (black) but told them - there was so much cultural difference and he would have to get used to eating rice and peas! He came to me last year and said - Bishop - I sure do miss FRIED CHICKEN AND CORNBREAD!!!!!!!!!!!! ROFL!!!!!!!!!!
They were both black but I really talked to them strong about the cultural differences but they wanted to marry so I joined them together and they seem to be adjusting well - of course - he has lost weight! LOL

[Margies3]

I've been UPC. I've been United Methodist. And now am Alliance.

And I'm here to tell you that the same thing is true in all of them. AND in most other organized churches.

I'm also very involved in a Christian retreat organization called "The Walk to Emmaus" http://www.upperroom.org/emmaus/default.asp It's the same thing in this.

All of them are very predominately white groups.

I find this to be unfortunate because my experience is that we (as a white culture) have much that we can learn from our AA brothers and sisters and they have equally as much that they can learn from us. Besides which, if we can't fellowship with one another here, how in the world do we think we are going to make the adjustment to fellowshipping together once we get to heaven!!!

The question is: HOW do we make this happen??? That is the million dollar question. I wish I knew the answer.

[DividedThigh]

obviously as the demographics of our churches change and they become more culturally diverse the situation with leadership will follow, just makes sense, dt:hypercoffee

[Truthseeker]

I've been UPC. I've been United Methodist. And now am Alliance.

And I'm here to tell you that the same thing is true in all of them. AND in most other organized churches.

I'm also very involved in a Christian retreat organization called "The Walk to Emmaus" http://www.upperroom.org/emmaus/default.asp It's the same thing in this.

All of them are very predominately white groups.

I find this to be unfortunate because my experience is that we (as a white culture) have much that we can learn from our AA brothers and sisters and they have equally as much that they can learn from us. Besides which, if we can't fellowship with one another here, how in the world do we think we are going to make the adjustment to fellowshipping together once we get to heaven!!!

The question is: HOW do we make this happen??? That is the million dollar question. I wish I knew the answer.

The not so funny thing is that some will blast others to hell for sleeves and skirts all the while they themselves have racism in their heart. What a shame and disgrace to the name of Jesus.

[Truthseeker]

obviously as the demographics of our churches change and they become more culturally diverse the situation with leadership will follow, just makes sense, dt:hypercoffee

What do you know? you wear shorts! Now be quite.

[bishoph]

AB gave the solution! As a pastor I made sure that visible leadership was diverse. It will not happen by accident, the pastor always practices what they really believe in this matter, and the church follows. If a pastor lives in an area where there is great diversity he must take steps to develop leaders representative of that diversity who are visible viable leaders not just token members. When this is done, people who come will recognize someone like them who is truly a part of the vision of the church and they will feel much more comfortable coming on board.

I have purposely recruited or elevated blacks, hispanics, and asians for key leadership positions in the church, which always resulted in a multicultural church.

[Praxeas]

well i obviously cant speak for the organization, but after being around for over 37 years, two observations, most of the upc churches dont have a lot of americans of african descent in them, and also most of the people i know who are americans of african descent go to black pentecostal churches by choice, this is my experience , especially in the south, dt:hypercoffee
It's not just that the UPC is a "very racist organization"...where I live in southern Cal most black people go to black churches..period. I remember witnessing to a black woman once and she said she drove past our church and just didn't know if her kind was welcome. So black people have a perception already that they go to black churches and whites go to white churches. Our church is racially mixed and always has been. It was a black person that helped bring me into the UPC

[bishoph]

obviously as the demographics of our churches change and they become more culturally diverse the situation with leadership will follow, just makes sense, dt:hypercoffee

From my experience, nothing could be farther from the truth! If the leadership (pastor first) of the church does not have a genuine desire to reach and assimilate different cultures into the congregation, a change in demographics will have little to no effect on the local church. I have seen all white churches who's neighborhood changed around them into an all black neighborhood, and the church just became more and more uncomfortable until they relocated outside that neighborhood to another predominately white area. This is in fact a phenomenon that is being addressed in many conference now, because there are thousands of churches who have abandoned their neighborhoods and left them without spiritual impact in order to move where they are more comfortable.

[HeavenlyOne]

It's not just that the UPC is a "very racist organization"...where I live in southern Cal most black people go to black churches..period. I remember witnessing to a black woman once and she said she drove past our church and just didn't know if her kind was welcome. So black people have a perception already that they go to black churches and whites go to white churches. Our church is racially mixed and always has been. It was a black person that helped bring me into the UPC

I visited a multicultural church near Chicago a couple months ago, and the pastor spoke on racism in the church. He said it's funny......he's heard people comment on his black church....because they passed by and saw black people exiting.

He's also heard people comment on his white church.....they were passing by and saw white people exiting......

He spoke very candidly about the stereotypes that exist between both worlds. He told the whites that a group of black men standing on a street corner didn't mean they were drug dealers. He told the blacks that they didn't have to wake up in the morning, feeling that it was another day of fighting the white folks that had it in for them.

He spoke about the Civil War and how hundreds of thousands of white men lost their lives for their freedom.

He also spoke about the statistics involving slavery and that about 3,000 black businessmen owned black slaves in the south.

He is a white pastor, and while I wasn't sure how his words would be received, he got amens from both black and white folks.

[ThePastorsCoach]

From my experience, nothing could be farther from the truth! If the leadership (pastor first) of the church does not have a genuine desire to reach and assimilate different cultures into the congregation, a change in demographics will have little to no effect on the local church. I have seen all white churches who's neighborhood changed around them into an all black neighborhood, and the church just became more and more uncomfortable until they relocated outside that neighborhood to another predominately white area. This is in fact a phenomenon that is being addressed in many conference now, because there are thousands of churches who have abandoned their neighborhoods and left them without spiritual impact in order to move where they are more comfortable.

So very true and it happens every day! I have a friend that sold their church to a black church and moved and now the area they moved in has integrated and his church is having a lot of blacks and the whites are moving further out to a white church miles away. It is sad that people that call themselves CHRISTIANS and APOSTOLIC live like this - pure racism!

[DividedThigh]

From my experience, nothing could be farther from the truth! If the leadership (pastor first) of the church does not have a genuine desire to reach and assimilate different cultures into the congregation, a change in demographics will have little to no effect on the local church. I have seen all white churches who's neighborhood changed around them into an all black neighborhood, and the church just became more and more uncomfortable until they relocated outside that neighborhood to another predominately white area. This is in fact a phenomenon that is being addressed in many conference now, because there are thousands of churches who have abandoned their neighborhoods and left them without spiritual impact in order to move where they are more comfortable.

well we will see, i sure hope the times reflect the changes in culture and makeup of our church, by the way, i didnt say this was a truth just my opinion of what i would hope happens, dt:hypercoffee

[Truthseeker]

So very true and it happens every day! I have a friend that sold their church to a black church and moved and now the area they moved in has integrated and his church is having a lot of blacks and the whites are moving further out to a white church miles away. It is sad that people that call themselves CHRISTIANS and APOSTOLIC live like this - pure racism!

And all the while claim to be baptized into Christ. Some believe the oneness doctrine but live a trinity!

[Margies3]

AB gave the solution! As a pastor I made sure that visible leadership was diverse. It will not happen by accident, the pastor always practices what they really believe in this matter, and the church follows. If a pastor lives in an area where there is great diversity he must take steps to develop leaders representative of that diversity who are visible viable leaders not just token members. When this is done, people who come will recognize someone like them who is truly a part of the vision of the church and they will feel much more comfortable coming on board.

I have purposely recruited or elevated blacks, hispanics, and asians for key leadership positions in the church, which always resulted in a multicultural church.

Bishop, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, my experience doesn't work out quite the same. I am on the Board for Emmaus. We got some complaints not long ago because we don't have anyone "of color" (their words, not mine) on the board. I asked what they would like us to do and was told that we should make sure that next time we have elections, we have several people of color running for the positions. So now it's time for elections. We have 5 positions open. 4000 members in this organization. And we've made more phone calls than I care to count. Not one person of color was willing to say "yes" to running for the Board.

If they had agreed to run, it is a given that they would have gotten on the Board. We have 5 positions open and only 5 people running for those positions. It seems NO ONE wants to be in leadership :(

[DividedThigh]

What do you know? you wear shorts! Now be quite.

well at least i have nice tanned calves, lol,dt:hypercoffee

[ThePastorsCoach]

And all the while claim to be baptized into Christ. Some believe the oneness doctrine but live a trinity!

OH WOW - They preach against cutting hair, jewelry, make up, pants on women, facial hair (except eyebrows) on men and other extra-biblical rules and regulations - but have hate in their heart against a brother of another color. Sad!

[Praxeas]

No They don't ALL do that. This tripe you guys are posting here happens in ALL churches not just Oneness Apostolic. And NOT all OP churches are like that. Come on guys be a little more sane when posting

[Truthseeker]

Mal 2:10

10 Have we not all one father ? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
KJV

[berkeley]

Some still use the "culture shock" excuse. And here I thought we made some progress since the 60's. But, what can you really expect from churches full of hillbillies and white-mexicans.*grin*

[ThePastorsCoach]

Bishop, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, my experience doesn't work out quite the same. I am on the Board for Emmaus. We got some complaints not long ago because we don't have anyone "of color" (their words, not mine) on the board. I asked what they would like us to do and was told that we should make sure that next time we have elections, we have several people of color running for the positions. So now it's time for elections. We have 5 positions open. 4000 members in this organization. And we've made more phone calls than I care to count. Not one person of color was willing to say "yes" to running for the Board.

If they had agreed to run, it is a given that they would have gotten on the Board. We have 5 positions open and only 5 people running for those positions. It seems NO ONE wants to be in leadership :(

Well............... I don't know your org but here it is from my perspective. I was invited to sit as a visiting Bishop on the General Board of a large Black org. The Presiding Bishop invited me to get a "different perspective". I did sit with them but the looks some gave me and the comments that some made after I spoke - were demeaning and outright rude. The Bishop did correct them as I was there as his guest - but some did not want me and it did make me uncomfortable.
It could be that these would feel uncomfortable in having to be the one to break the ice!
I did get a call from a Black Network yesterday that has only black preachers on - they have been looking at my MY SPACE page and our Website and asked me to come on board at no expense to me - just to break the racial barrier! It is working for me! PTL!

[Truthseeker]

No They don't ALL do that. This tripe you guys are posting here happens in ALL churches not just Oneness Apostolic. And NOT all OP churches are like that. Come on guys be a little more sane when posting

No one says all do and no one says it's just OP. I'm refering to the some.

[ThePastorsCoach]

No They don't ALL do that. This tripe you guys are posting here happens in ALL churches not just Oneness Apostolic. And NOT all OP churches are like that. Come on guys be a little more sane when posting

No one is pointing fingers at the UPC or OP's - Good grief! Racism don't happen in ALL churches - I will not allow it in the church I pastor!

[Margies3]

Well............... I don't know your org but here it is from my perspective. I was invited to sit as a visiting Bishop on the General Board of a large Black org. The Presiding Bishop invited me to get a "different perspective". I did sit with them but the looks some gave me and the comments that some made after I spoke - were demeaning and outright rude. The Bishop did correct them as I was there as his guest - but some did not want me and it did make me uncomfortable.
It could be that these would feel uncomfortable in having to be the one to break the ice!
I did get a call from a Black Network yesterday that has only black preachers on - they have been looking at my MY SPACE page and our Website and asked me to come on board at no expense to me - just to break the racial barrier! It is working for me! PTL!

I really do understand, AB. I've talked with the board president about it. I have friends who are AA and have visited their churches many times. You really have to be in that position before you can understand how it feels to be the only one of your race and culture sitting in a room (or worshipping in a sanctuary). Unfortunately, because we're all human, it is an uncomfortable position to be in very often. So I understand. I sincerely wish I knew what we, as a predominately white organization, could do to reach out to those of us who are AA and make them feel more comfortable.

[tamor]

AB gave the solution!
As a pastor I made sure that visible leadership was diverse. It will not happen by accident, the pastor always practices what they really believe in this matter, and the church follows. If a pastor lives in an area where there is great diversity he must take steps to develop leaders representative of that diversity who are visible viable leaders not just token members. When this is done, people who come will recognize someone like them who is truly a part of the vision of the church and they will feel much more comfortable coming on board.

I have purposely recruited or elevated blacks, hispanics, and asians for key leadership positions in the church, which always resulted in a multicultural church.

You got it. The church will mirror the platform. Alot of folks say they want a multi-racial/multi-cultural church but their leadership is lily white. It ain't gonna happen.

[Digging4Truth]

I'll tell you when these issues can be considered as resolved...

When threads like this stop being made and we stop keeping count.

Some say that we should be color blind but oftentimes they are the very ones keeping count.

How can you keep count if you are color blind.

[Margies3]

When you spend a weekend on an Emmaus Walk, one of the things that happens over the course of the weekend is that you receive lots of little "gifts of agape" made by people who've been on an Emmaus Walk in the past.

An interesting thing happened a few months ago during a Walk weekend. We had passed out some of the 'agape' at mealtime (it's on their tables when they come in to eat. So they're surprised by it, usually pleasantly surprised). This time, there was a beaded key chain with the different colors of beads that correspond to the song "MY heart was black with sin,(black bead) until the Savior came in. His precious blood I know (red) has washed me white as snow (white bead) and in His word I'm told I'll walk on streets of gold (yellow bead). Oh wonderful, wonderful day, He washed my sins away."

On this Walk there were to men who were AA. One of them came to a Board memeber and handed back his keychain saying that he was offended by this. When asked why, he said that whenever we as Christians want to portray "sin" we always use the color black. And when we want to portray that sin being cleansed, we use the color white. Well, to him that was saying that Black is bad (sin, after all!) while white is good (christian, after all!)

We learned thru this that we really have to be careful and aware of how other people might receive what we are trying to say. Who would have thought???

[ILUVHIM]

It was only two weeks ago, I was at the UPCI General Conference, and a couple from Arkansas approached some of the young people from our church who were African American, and asked them where they were from because they hardly see Apostolic that were black.

Who are the prominent African American pastors in the UPCI, besides the brother that is incharge of Black Evangelism, McKenzie from Canada, and Naylor from NJ? What ever happened to CE (fromer Black Evangelism Head)?

[HeavenlyOne]

I have a couple pics of me with my sisters who live in Richmond, VA. I'm sure you can see the family resemblance.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r88/heavenlyone517/joynkelli.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r88/heavenlyone517/joynmary.jpg

Don't mind the boy in that last one. It's just my son, who loves that woman as much as he loves me.

[Consapostolic1]

From my observation in my area and the ring of fellowship my church is in I've noticed that there are more blk ppl in our churches which are conservative ind. than in the UPC here.

["GL"]

Yikes! Your boy is huge, HO. I'm getting old...

[HeavenlyOne]

Yikes! Your boy is huge, HO. I'm getting old...

Here's Becca. She's not tall, the other girl, who is 21, is short.....LOL!

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r88/heavenlyone517/beccanangel.jpg

[Darcie]

There is a precious young AA* lady in our church who recently married a PAW fella from out of state and it caused me to ask this question. Why on earth would any AA family with children want to join up with the UPC?

This young lady's mom was an Olympic sprinter and has a college degree, and in my mind would have been a wonderful catch for any man.

You also don't see any (to my knowledge) any AA's in the UPC leadership.

Why is that?



*African American

There are many AA's in the org. NY Metro district is now majority black. I'm ok with white churches, black churches, latino churches...sometimes its a cultural thing and IMO I see nothing wrong with that.

Now about the leadership thing... I don't get that, but then we've never had a AA President...I just don't get it! Is it racism? ignorance? I don't know.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

If any thing brings Thad-hidden-among-us out of hiding, this should be it.

[BrotherEastman]

I'll be honest, I haven't really noticed any racism. On the contrary, I've seen and met alot of AA UPC constituents.

[ThePastorsCoach]

I'll be honest, I haven't really noticed any racism. On the contrary, I've seen and met alot of AA UPC constituents.

Well.............. There you have it! No racism! Now that is the way it should be! Praise The Lord! :roseglasses

[Trouvere]

And why is that ? It is historically Proven that whites rarely will sit under black Leadership. how many whites do you see attending a church pastored by a Black Vs. blacks attending and sitting under white leadership?

you still failed to answer my first question

Sorry but you are wrong about this.I have black friends who pastor a UPC church and everytime I get a chance I run over there on Saturdays to knock doors with her and stay for the Sunday services to play the piano and work in the altars.They are reaching a city I lived in as a child and have a burden for.I would be a member any day of the week if God moved me there.
The pastors name is Brother Freddie Johnston and he is an awesome man of God.His wife is one of the best friends I have ever had.

[Trouvere]

This is so very true - let them little white UPC gals start even looking at a black guy and the family has to leave church or get outta town!

Excuse me but you need to come to Pensacola Fl for a visit.We have all kinds of mixed marriages.That is a biased statement to say people attending UPC churches.
BTW I like the glasses..nice touch.

[BrotherEastman]

Well.............. There you have it! No racism! Now that is the way it should be! Praise The Lord! :roseglasses
AB, I really don't know wether you're being sarcastic (mainly because I do not know you) or serious. I will say that I'm not nieve enough to believe that racism doesn't happen in the UPC, I just haven't seen it from my perspective, or at the very least, protected from seeing it.

A side note to everyone else, I go to a mixed church, and my wife came from a church that was very multi-cultural in Toronto, pastored by Timothy Pickard. Also there is a black pastor that pastors another church in Toronto that is friends with my wifes former pastor. I'm sure some of you have heard of him; Grenville McKenzie.

[berkeley]

The upc is full of oreos and coconuts... :runhills

[BrotherEastman]

BTW, I love good black preachin' LOL!

[berkeley]

BTW, I love good black preachin' LOL!

I don't care for preaching much anymore. I looove SOLID teaching. Put the milk away and give me a good steak!

[BrotherEastman]

I don't care for preaching much anymore. I looove SOLID teaching. Put the milk away and give me a good steak!
I like good solid teaching as well, but I love good preaching better.

[berkeley]

I like good solid teaching as well, but I love good preaching better.

I don't like preaching. It's too umm.. too much like a football game. :scorebad

[BrotherEastman]

I don't like preaching. It's too umm.. too much like a football game. :scorebad
I see.

[tamor]

I don't like preaching. It's too umm.. too much like a football game. :scorebad

I love football!!!

[berkeley]

I love football!!!

cheerleading... I was talking about cheerleading... good for a game, not good for church...

[Darcie]

:hijacked

[BrotherEastman]

:hijacked
ooooops.

[tamor]

cheerleading... I was talking about cheerleading... good for a game, not good for church...

Oh okay - gotcha!! Kinda like this?

:cheer :scoregood :cheer :scoregood :cheer

[berkeley]

Oh okay - gotcha!! Kinda like this?

:cheer :scoregood :cheer :scoregood :cheer

oui

[ThePastorsCoach]

BTW, I love good black preachin' LOL!

Thank ya - I appreciate it!!!!!!:scoregood

[berkeley]

Thank ya - I appreciate it!!!!!!:scoregood

You're not black.

[ForeverBlessed]

If any thing brings Thad-hidden-among-us out of hiding, this should be it.

let's keep prodding... might get him stirred up. :D

[ThePastorsCoach]

You're not black.

Ever heard me preach??????????

[berkeley]

Ever heard me preach??????????

Yeah.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Yeah.

LOL- WHEN??????????????/

[berkeley]

LOL- WHEN??????????????/

Online... six months ago??

[ThePastorsCoach]

Online... six months ago??

Well - I am pretty white here at CAA until I get cranked up! LOL

Come to one of our Miracle Faith Crusades and you will hear the black come out!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey - nice chatting with ya - I's gotta go PREACH! Bless you!
BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[tamor]

You're not black.

:shhh Don't tell him, he doesn't know.........:killinme

[berkeley]

:shhh Don't tell him, he doesn't know.........:killinme

Mexican thinks he's white, he's a coconut.

Black thinks he's white, he's an oreo.

White thinks he's black, what is he?

[tamor]

Mexican thinks he's white, he's a coconut.

Black thinks he's white, he's an oreo.

White thinks he's black, what is he?

I'm skeered to hear your answer........

[berkeley]

I'm skeered to hear your answer........

I don't have an answer, that's why I am asking!!:hypercoffee

[Trouvere]

:girlnails

I don't have an answer, that's why I am asking!!:hypercoffee

That Brother is as vanilla as it comes.He is so white my eyes hurt after looking at his picture.I might need to borrow those glasses.

[tamor]

I don't have an answer, that's why I am asking!!:hypercoffee

I thought you were gonna give me some wonderful words of wisdom........:lol :lol

[berkeley]

I thought you were gonna give me some wonderful words of wisdom........:lol :lol

Bit's of Wisdom from Berkeley:snapout

[pelathais]

Mexican thinks he's white, he's a coconut.

Black thinks he's white, he's an oreo.

White thinks he's black, what is he?
I think you don't see more blacks in the UPC leadership because most UPC blacks just don't want to deal with a lot of the issues that their white brethren struggle with. The whites don't even know what they want to be so it's hard to convince many blacks to take up a mantle of uncertainty and constant bickering.

Also, the UPC culture is somewhat foreign and alien to them - despite the fact that just about everything that is distinctive to the UPC culture came from black roots.

Consider Olympic basketball as an analogy. Blacks have largely "taken over" the NBA in America and the USA Olympic basketball team is largely black as well. From this, some people have concluded that blacks are "superior" to whites when it comes to basketball. If this were so, how come no African team as ever medaled in Olympic basketball? None, ever. After the American team, you have the largely white Croatian, Italian, Spanish, Argentinean and various former USSR teams (Russia, Estonia, etc) and now the Chinese. If blacks were "superior" to whites at basketball, shouldn't an all-black team from, say Nigeria or Kenya have at least won a bronze sometime in the last 80+ years of Olympic Basketball?

Success in sports is dependant on physical prowess, yes; however in team sports you also need coaching and a culture that transmits the learned aspects of the game from one person to another. Black Africa has lacked that successful culture - at least in basketball. Look at all of the "flops" recruited directly from Africa to the NBA. They probably just lacked the coaching when they were young. Except Manut Bol- that guy looked like he completely lacked ligature in his limbs.

In the UPC we have no (or at least very few) on going "black training camps" that churn out large numbers of qualified candidates for "higher office." So we simply lack the culture to produce black leaders in much the same way that Black Africa lacks a basketball culture. This has its roots in past (and sometimes current) racism, no doubt. But the opportunity exists to change that, if there were enough blacks who were convinced that it was worth their while.

Oh, I didn't answer the question either: Is it Eminen?

[Barb]

Mexican thinks he's white, he's a coconut.

Black thinks he's white, he's an oreo.

White thinks he's black, what is he?

Thad...?! :saycheese

[Hegavmelif]

No one is pointing fingers at the UPC or OP's - Good grief! Racism don't happen in ALL churches - I will not allow it in the church I pastor!

I don't know you, you don't know me, but you really lost me with that statement............racism is everywhere...even in your church.

A wise old black man once told me, "Anyone who has ever been exposed to other cultures has some level of racism."

[Hegavmelif]

I'll tell you when these issues can be considered as resolved...

When threads like this stop being made and we stop keeping count.

Some say that we should be color blind but oftentimes they are the very ones keeping count.

How can you keep count if you are color blind.

You have spoken the truth!!! Those of us who try to defend diversity are the ones that get blasted by the very people who start and paticipate in these kinds of threads. I out of here!!!!!!!!!!!

[Carpenter]

I don't know you, you don't know me, but you really lost me with that statement............racism is everywhere...even in your church.

A wise old black man once told me, "Anyone who has ever been exposed to other cultures has some level of racism."

I think it is interesting how missionaries go to the depths of Africa and other places to win the hairy unwashed, but we don't hear of many missionaries going into the inner cities...case in point, there probably are some there, but they certainly don't have their faces on a poster and they must not receive the noteriety the missionaries do during their U.S. PIM tours.

I am not condemning or downgrading missionaries to foreign fields, I just think sometimes there is not enough emphasis on what is going on in the good old US of A.

[Carpenter]

Posted by Digging4Truth
I'll tell you when these issues can be considered as resolved...

When threads like this stop being made and we stop keeping count.

Some say that we should be color blind but oftentimes they are the very ones keeping count.

How can you keep count if you are color blind.

Wrong. This is like putting your head in the sand by saying if we don't discuss it then it won't be an issue.

I really could care less, but I do know if I were an African American, it would be very very very difficult for me and my family to be in the UPC and feel like I wasn't trying to be a trailblazer or making an attempt at crusading against an implied segregation.

There is still a redneck good old boy constituency pervasive in the UPC whether they will admit it or not.

[Praxeas]

No one says all do and no one says it's just OP. I'm refering to the some.
Im not referring to you specifically but the mockery and constant darts at Apostolics in generalities is really old and self defeating

[chosenbyone]

I'm not UPC but I am black and have been to some of the UPC functions in the district in my area. I went to the Sr. camp for 3 nights, what I noticed was that there was about 400 young people and about 20 black young ppl in the bunch. I feel that alot of the young upc white ppl in this district don't know how to talk to black ppl. I guess they think just because someone is black that you have to speak to them differently or something. When the UPC family camp rolled around me and two other black friends from my church went. Sitting on the platform, all we saw were white faces. All the music played during the worship services was southern gospel. I strongly believe that the UPC district in my area has alot of racist ppl in it. The church I attend is a conservative ind. church I'd say that our church is 20% blk and even though my church has had blks attending it since the 80's we still have some racial issues come up. I think may have to do with what part of the country I live in, ppl here afraid of change.

I think that a lot it has to do with the geographical location. If you live in the South and in a small town or city the chances of attending an ethnically mixed congregation would be slim to none. In the larger urban areas, it would be more common to see churches that represented all of society and not just one segment. Many will experience a rude awakening when the Lord returns to gather his children.

A rainbow of colors will be seen as blacks and whites, Orientals and Hispanics, Jews and Arabs, American Indians and Eskimos are all united with their Lord. Those who have become brothers and sisters on earth through the blood of Jesus will find that brotherhood enduring for eternity.

[Praxeas]

No one is pointing fingers at the UPC or OP's - Good grief! Racism don't happen in ALL churches - I will not allow it in the church I pastor!
by churches I meant church organizations. And you may not know it but there just could be racists in your church too.

But the constant one sided attacks on Apostolics here is old,

[Praxeas]

I have a couple pics of me with my sisters who live in Richmond, VA. I'm sure you can see the family resemblance.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r88/heavenlyone517/joynkelli.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r88/heavenlyone517/joynmary.jpg

Don't mind the boy in that last one. It's just my son, who loves that woman as much as he loves me.
I visited a UPC in Springfield Va. It was a home missions work still I think or just after. Most of the members I think were black. The pastor was white

[Margies3]

I have a couple pics of me with my sisters who live in Richmond, VA. I'm sure you can see the family resemblance.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r88/heavenlyone517/joynkelli.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r88/heavenlyone517/joynmary.jpg

Don't mind the boy in that last one. It's just my son, who loves that woman as much as he loves me.

I see the family resemblance. You all look like your FATHER :)

[tamor]

Mexican thinks he's white, he's a coconut.

Black thinks he's white, he's an oreo.

White thinks he's black, what is he?

Thad...?! :saycheese

:pirate:pirate GREAT ANSWER, BARB!! :pirate:pirate

[Felicity]

No They don't ALL do that. This tripe you guys are posting here happens in ALL churches not just Oneness Apostolic. And NOT all OP churches are like that. Come on guys be a little more sane when posting*just reading through this thread*

Sanity is a subjective word Prax. ;) :D

[Felicity]

[/B]

You got it. The church will mirror the platform. Alot of folks say they want a multi-racial/multi-cultural church but their leadership is lily white. It ain't gonna happen.I think the platform should mirror the church.

In other words, if you have a church that is multi-racial, that should be reflected on the platform, in committees, boards and involvement in every department.

Race itself shouldn't prevent a person from being involved or used, but people shouldn't be chosen for position based on their race solely either. They should be chosen because they're interested in serving, have the ability and meet the church guidelines for being involved.

[Felicity]

I hadn't been to a General Conference since 1995 - 12 years ago - but it seemed to me that I saw a LOT more AAs there this year than I had ever noticed before.

As far as racism, sure it exists. Moreso in some places than in others. We ran into it on deputation and I was surprised at the number of churches in the south that had very few black people attending although there is a huge AA population in the South.

The topic came up in conversation and pastors said that the cultural differences sometimes made it difficult for the two to co-exist in the same church. I can see why this would be to some extent.

I think that there is probably less of this sort of thing when you get into Yankee territory. It's pretty much a non-issue in most churches where I have lived. Certainly here in the north-west where you have huge racial diversity and also in the northeast.

[StillStanding]

To start the process of blending races in churches, why doesn't someone here on AFF make a decision to leave the church where your family attends and find a similar church of another race in your area!

Easier said than done, isn't it?

We won't do it ourselves, but we want others to do it!

Those of you who brag about mixed cultures in your church, is your pastor black?

[Felicity]

To start the process of blending races in churches, why doesn't someone here on AFF make a decision to leave the church where your family attends and find a similar church of another race in your area!

Easier said than done, isn't it?

We won't do it ourselves, but we want others to do it!

Those of you who brag about mixed cultures in your church, is your pastor black?No. Speaking for myself, I wasn't bragging actually. It's just a fact.

[StillStanding]

No. Speaking for myself, I wasn't bragging actually. It's just a fact.
"Bragging" was too strong a word, and for that I apologize. My main point is that I'm wondering how many mixed culture Apostolic churches have black pastors.

[AmazingGrace]

I think the platform should mirror the church.

In other words, if you have a church that is multi-racial, that should be reflected on the platform, in committees, boards and involvement in every department.

Race itself shouldn't prevent a person from being involved or used, but people shouldn't be chosen for position based on their race solely either. They should be chosen because they're interested in serving, have the ability and meet the church guidelines for being involved.

I agree and that is one thing I am so glad to see... In our church we have a very multi racial church and it is reflected in every part of our church... our church is actually most known for this and on our platform and on our boards sit... african americans and every other such nationality. We also have sitting on our platform during each service all of our staff pastors which consist of about 20 and in that number is a African American pastor, and Indian pastor, a Korean pastor a Spanish pastor and many others. It is awesome to see the diversity and know that every week we have services for them in their own language and they also come to the main service too and worship with everyone else...

I am very excited now too as just last night my husband and I were asked to start working with the music for the african church services and my daughter will be possibly leading the song service... Its awesome to be a part of this!

[Felicity]

"Bragging" was too strong a word, and for that I apologize. My main point is that I'm wondering how many mixed culture Apostolic churches have black pastors.Interesting question. I think that there are probably many, particular in the areas I mentioned earlier.

The reason I say this is because there are areas now in North America where there is such huge racial cultural diversity - especially in the larger cities - that I can't see how it could be prevented.

The church should reflect the neighborhood where it's situated and when there has been such major immigration of people all over the world moving into cities in the U.S. and Canada if you're reaching your world at all then the racial diversity should be reflected in the church.

Just my thots and totally open to hearing what others have to say about this.

[tamor]

I think the platform should mirror the church.

In other words, if you have a church that is multi-racial, that should be reflected on the platform, in committees, boards and involvement in every department.

Race itself shouldn't prevent a person from being involved or used, but people shouldn't be chosen for position based on their race solely either. They should be chosen because they're interested in serving, have the ability and meet the church guidelines for being involved.


Sorry. I made my comment backwards. I think the platform should mirror the church. But I think the church will go only as far as the leadership is willing to go....

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Pianoman
"Bragging" was too strong a word, and for that I apologize. My main point is that I'm wondering how many mixed culture Apostolic churches have black pastors.

Again... why does it matter?

As I mentioned before this issue will always be an issue until people stop seeing color.

These things are not cured by "affirmative action" type notions that portray a feeling that all is not right until a "black person" is in this position or a "white person" is in that position.

Our 50/50 church just voted in the new pastor in May with a 92% "for" vote.

It seems that things would be more "kosher" in your eyes if one particular race were voted in over another. That... to me... seems like a racist position in itself.

As I said before... when we forget the color thing entirely and stop keeping count is when we move past this issue.

Reading this thread (the few times I have subjected myself to its content) I see no hope that we will reach this point anytime soon.

[Felicity]

Sorry. I made my comment backwards. I think the platform should mirror the church. But I think the church will go only as far as the leadership is willing to go....True, usually. There are dynamics that can mess that up. Like a deep-rooted power/control group, ideologies, beliefs, and belief systems in the church that can make things difficult for both the people and the pastor.

[Felicity]

Again... why does it matter?

As I mentioned before this issue will always be an issue until people stop seeing color.

These things are not cured by "affirmative action" type notions that portray a feeling that all is not right until a "black person" is in this position or a "white person" is in that position.

Our 50/50 church just voted in the new pastor in May with a 92% "for" vote.

It seems that things would be more "kosher" in your eyes if one particular race were voted in over another. That... to me... seems like a racist position in itself.

As I said before... when we forget the color thing entirely and stop keeping count is when we move past this issue.

Reading this thread (the few times I have subjected myself to its content) I see no hope that we will reach this point anytime soon.I'm not sure that we will ever get to the point where we don't see "color". Color really isn't the problem anyway imo. Culture can be more of a problem which we've found out pastoring a multi-racial church.

It's not as easy as we think for some of these cultures to be absorbed into the western church and it's not all OUR fault either. The will can be there and the desire can be there for this to happen, but in reality absorption has difficulties.

[josh]

Sitting on my platform every Sunday night are two black preachers, one hispanic preacher, and three white preachers.

However, not a single one is up there because of their race and none are kept off because of their race.

We have more hispanics than blacks (slightly) but they are not offended by the mix on the platform.

I would have all-white, all-black, or whatever. The requirement is the calling and the consecration...not race.

The ministry is no place for racism or affirmative action. When a church has neither God's calling and placing is the deciding factor. The sin comes in if anyone is unwilling to train, work with, utilize men because of their race.

The lack of racism in our church is not because of its location. Our minorities run into this factor at work all the time.

[Digging4Truth]

I'm not sure that we will ever get to the point where we don't see "color". Color really isn't the problem anyway imo. Culture can be more of a problem which we've found out pastoring a multi-racial church.

It's not as easy as we think for some of these cultures to be absorbed into the western church and it's not all OUR fault either. The will can be there and the desire can be there for this to happen, but in reality absorption has difficulties.

I agree.

Truly color is not as much an issue as culture. When anyone has a blatant culture difference which they wish to maintain and display then assimilation into another culture is difficult and forced at best.

If I were to go to church in a place that had a very strong cultural leaning then I would always stick out as the one who just didn't quite "get it" in terms of their cultural practices.

I would have the choice of taking on their cultural practices, inflections etc or always be the different one. Even then it would never be the same.

People of differing ethnic backgrounds and yet similar cultural leanings should be able to move past color. It is easier to gain the "melting pot" scenario when dealing only with color. Culture is what causes portions of the mix solidify against others and maintain its own identity within the mixture.

[Digging4Truth]

Sitting on my platform every Sunday night are two black preachers, one hispanic preacher, and three white preachers.

However, not a single one is up there because of their race and none are kept off because of their race.

We have more hispanics than blacks (slightly) but they are not offended by the mix on the platform.

I would have all-white, all-black, or whatever. The requirement is the calling and the consecration...not race.

The ministry is no place for racism or affirmative action. When a church has neither God's calling and placing is the deciding factor. The sin comes in if anyone is unwilling to train, work with, utilize men because of their race.

The lack of racism in our church is not because of its location. Our minorities run into this factor at work all the time.

Well said....

[DividedThigh]

Well said....

good job for both of you, amen, dt:scoregood:hypercoffee

[StillStanding]

Again... why does it matter?

As I mentioned before this issue will always be an issue until people stop seeing color.

These things are not cured by "affirmative action" type notions that portray a feeling that all is not right until a "black person" is in this position or a "white person" is in that position.

Our 50/50 church just voted in the new pastor in May with a 92% "for" vote.

It seems that things would be more "kosher" in your eyes if one particular race were voted in over another. That... to me... seems like a racist position in itself.

As I said before... when we forget the color thing entirely and stop keeping count is when we move past this issue.

Reading this thread (the few times I have subjected myself to its content) I see no hope that we will reach this point anytime soon.
As others have said, if you truly desire a multi-cultural church you should reflect it in who is in leadership positions. (board members, musicians, song leaders, teachers, ushers, etc.)

Which comes first, the leaders or the members? Those with a vision will pick the leaders first! JMHO

[berkeley]

I'll be honest here, I'm NOT color blind. I used to love living in a melting pot, but now I'd opt for the salad bowl.

[Joseph Miller]

Are yall aware that Bro. Wayne Francis is the promotion director and was nominated for GYP at General Conference but with drew his name because he had not been ordained a year yet.

[Steve Epley]

Since the 20's when most of the whites left the PAW and formed other groups the intergration has been very slow. I do NOT believe a 'white' & 'black' church is the will of God.

[pelathais]

I'll be honest here, I'm NOT color blind. I used to love living in a melting pot, but now I'd opt for the salad bowl.
With the fruits and vegetables?

[Joseph Miller]

:pirateWith the fruits and vegetables?

or is that fruits and nuts? :pirate

[crakjak]

Since the 20's when most of the whites left the PAW and formed other groups the intergration has been very slow. I do NOT believe a 'white' & 'black' church is the will of God.

Your statement could be taken many different ways, care to clarify?
A multi-cultural church requires Godly wisdom and leadership, but it is a glorious sight to behold.

[DividedThigh]

Your statement could be taken many different ways, care to clarify?
A multi-cultural church requires Godly wisdom and leadership, but it is a glorious sight to behold.

amen to that, dt:hypercoffee

[Felicity]

Your statement could be taken many different ways, care to clarify?
A multi-cultural church requires Godly wisdom and leadership, but it is a glorious sight to behold.Totally agree. :)

[Digging4Truth]

As others have said, if you truly desire a multi-cultural church you should reflect it in who is in leadership positions. (board members, musicians, song leaders, teachers, ushers, etc.)

Which comes first, the leaders or the members? Those with a vision will pick the leaders first! JMHO


You are still keeping count.

All that should be reflected in leadership is a heart full of His Word & Godly wisdom.

There is no escaping quotas and keeping count with statements like the one quoted above. Mindsets like the one above put people in positions because of some imagined need to demonstrate equality in numbers.

Equality is demonstrated in moving beyond the numbers game.

Keeping count doesn't change the heart of the people any more than putting long sleeves on someone changes the inward condition of their heart.

One cannot demonstrate their equality with a census. One demonstrates their equality with a daily walk.

This boils down to some indwelling need to "prove" how un-racist one is by placing leadership into place that "reflects" the population of the church.

Any leadership put in place should "reflect" a love for the Word & Ways of God. Nothing more. Nothing Less. Any stipulations on leadership beyond that has lost view of the prize.

[StillStanding]

You are still keeping count.

All that should be reflected in leadership is a heart full of His Word & Godly wisdom.

There is no escaping quotas and keeping count with statements like the one quoted above. Mindsets like the one above put people in positions because of some imagined need to demonstrate equality in numbers.

Equality is demonstrated in moving beyond the numbers game.

Keeping count doesn't change the heart of the people any more than putting long sleeves on someone changes the inward condition of their heart.

One cannot demonstrate their equality with a census. One demonstrates their equality with a daily walk.

This boils down to some indwelling need to "prove" how un-racist one is by placing leadership into place that "reflects" the population of the church.

Any leadership put in place should "reflect" a love for the Word & Ways of God. Nothing more. Nothing Less. Any stipulations on leadership beyond that has lost view of the prize.

You are misunderstanding what I'm saying!

If God has called you to have a multi-cultural church, he will provide the leadership.

If you want more blacks in your church, look for some blacks that are qualified for certain leadership positions. If having more blacks is not a priority for you, don't worry about it! This doesn't mean you're racist!

Having blacks in leadership positions sends a message to other blacks in your congregation and community that you value them.

I'm sorry, but when I attend a church that is over 1/4 black and see NO blacks in leadership postions, it bothers me in my spirit!

[Digging4Truth]

You are misunderstanding what I'm saying!

If God has called you to have a multi-cultural church, he will provide the leadership.

If you want more blacks in your church, look for some blacks that are qualified for certain leadership positions. If having more blacks is not a priority for you, don't worry about it! This doesn't mean you're racist!

Having blacks in leadership positions sends a message to other blacks in your congregation and community that you value them.

I'm sorry, but when I attend a church that is over 1/4 black and see NO blacks in leadership postions, it bothers me in my spirit!


No sir... I don't misunderstand you. I just disagree with you.

I don't think God provides people of certain colors for leadership. I think he provides people of certain character for leadership.

Of course... this stems from my opinion that God doesn't keep count either.

[StillStanding]

No sir... I don't misunderstand you. I just disagree with you.

I don't think God provides people of certain colors for leadership. I think he provides people of certain character for leadership.

Of course... this stems from my opinion that God doesn't keep count either.

This is the same excuse that white churches have used for years to justify themselves. It's amazing that God has leaders in black churches isn't it?

You see, leadership is an art and it is learned. Leadership is the art of developing other people. As a leader, you determine who you will help develop into leaders. Character counts, but even character is developed and hopefully parroted from the pastor.

I'm not saying that you MUST put someone in a leadership position because of their color, but I am saying that if everything is equal, you should give the black person the advantage IF you are indeed reaching out to the black community!

Black leadership = I value the black community!

[Steve Epley]

This is the same excuse that white churches have used for years to justify themselves. It's amazing that God has leaders in black churches isn't it?

You see, leadership is an art and it is learned. Leadership is the art of developing other people. As a leader, you determine who you will help develop into leaders. Character counts, but even character is developed and hopefully parroted from the pastor.

I'm not saying that you MUST put someone in a leadership position because of their color, but I am saying that if everything is equal, you should give the black person the advantage IF you are indeed reaching out to the black community!

Black leadership = I value the black community!

Surely if a church with a 1/4 of it's membership was black there would have to be qualified leaders among them?

[StillStanding]

Surely if a church with a 1/4 of it's membership was black there would have to be qualified leaders among them?
One would think! :)

[mfblume]

Surely if a church with a 1/4 of it's membership was black there would have to be qualified leaders among them?

Amen and amen.

[berkeley]

I remember as a 15 yr old young man, inviting my older friend and neighbor to church. She said "...when I go to church, I go to a black church."

I don't agree, but I understand why someone of 'color' wouldn't trust my white preacher and his church full of....









mexicans. :lol

[Steve Epley]

Bishop Haywood was broken hearted of the defection of the white brethren in the 20's. In Bishop Golder's History of the PAW it was a hurt they never got over. That is a dark blot on the American Pentecostal history that in my opinion both groups white and black suffered because of it. Like the sin of segregation in this nation is a national blot.

[berkeley]

We have one family of 'color'. By all appearances they are black. But they are from somewhere in S.A. I think Belize. Not too sure.

[StillStanding]

I remember as a 15 yr old young man, inviting my older friend and neighbor to church. She said "...when I go to church, I go to a black church."

I don't agree, but I understand why someone of 'color' wouldn't trust my white preacher and his church full of....

mexicans. :lol

People naturally tend to go to church where they feel comfortable. Whether we like it or not, race is factor in that comfort level.

[RevBuddy]

Bishop Haywood was broken hearted of the defection of the white brethren in the 20's. In Bishop Golder's History of the PAW it was a hurt they never got over. That is a dark blot on the American Pentecostal history that in my opinion both groups white and black suffered because of it. Like the sin of segregation in this nation is a national blot.

Elder:

Oh man, I wish I had said that!!! Very well put...

[Trouvere]

Glad I go to church where every color is represented.You can see headsets around the building.

[Neck]

There is a precious young AA* lady in our church who recently married a PAW fella from out of state and it caused me to ask this question. Why on earth would any AA family with children want to join up with the UPC?

This young lady's mom was an Olympic sprinter and has a college degree, and in my mind would have been a wonderful catch for any man.

You also don't see any (to my knowledge) any AA's in the UPC leadership.

Why is that?



*African American

Because most black churches do not put up with standards.

[Praxeas]

Glad I go to church where every color is represented.You can see headsets around the building.
wireless? How do you do the headsets and translations?

[Digging4Truth]

This is the same excuse that white churches have used for years to justify themselves. It's amazing that God has leaders in black churches isn't it?

You see, leadership is an art and it is learned. Leadership is the art of developing other people. As a leader, you determine who you will help develop into leaders. Character counts, but even character is developed and hopefully parroted from the pastor.

I'm not saying that you MUST put someone in a leadership position because of their color, but I am saying that if everything is equal, you should give the black person the advantage IF you are indeed reaching out to the black community!

Black leadership = I value the black community!

This whole post just stems from the mindset that everyone that doesn't play the numbers game is racist.

Those who do play the numbers game are closer to racist in my opinion.

Whether you are putting someone forward or holding someone back because of their race is of no real consequence. Either action is only different sides to the same coin.

One doesn't move past racism by creating counter racism.

Nothing I have said in any way precludes anyone of any race being set up in any position for any reason. What I am saying is that the best candidate should be chosen... always. If that candidate is one race or another should be of no consequence. If their race is of any consequence to their election or dismissal then there has been racial prejudice and discrimination.

Racial prejudice and discrimination is always wrong.

[Chosen]

Hello,
With all due respect to my precious brethen and with an angle from a minority(Minority in this nations eyes (but not in Jesus' eyes).

I have lived all my life(42 years) in the south and have been in the Truth the last 20 years.

I have been under precious men of faith BUT there has always been that "understood unspoken law" , caucasians lead, everyone else follows.

I attempted to get my Lic. back in 1992 , not allowed because the Pastors son had to be the first one to get his Lic. at that church since he was next in line for the church.

I waited and waited nothing, I have read all the books , preached done all I was asked and nothing met all the requiremnets placed before me and nothing. I moved to TX where at least 50% of the congregations are made up of "minorities" at least in my area and yet NOT ONE "minority" pastor.

Many years ago there was always a stigma that was placed on the black race as "being to dumb" to know or do anything right, well now it has been extended to the Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Indians shall I go on.

There really is a problem, and I am happy Jesus is not like most in leadership in this area because you see GOD has used me in services full of Caucasians even if they won't.

Its a reality, sad, and even if done subconsciously its still wrong.I hold no bitter feelings , it just saddens me because I know if I notice it many thers do also.

[pelathais]

Hello,
With all due respect to my precious brethen and with an angle from a minority(Minority in this nations eyes (but not in Jesus' eyes).

I have lived all my life(42 years) in the south and have been in the Truth the last 20 years.

I have been under precious men of faith BUT there has always been that "understood unspoken law" , caucasians lead, everyone else follows.

I attempted to get my Lic. back in 1992 , not allowed because the Pastors son had to be the first one to get his Lic. at that church since he was next in line for the church.

I waited and waited nothing, I have read all the books , preached done all I was asked and nothing met all the requiremnets placed before me and nothing. I moved to TX where at least 50% of the congregations are made up of "minorities" at least in my area and yet NOT ONE "minority" pastor.

Many years ago there was always a stigma that was placed on the black race as "being to dumb" to know or do anything right, well now it has been extended to the Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Indians shall I go on.

There really is a problem, and I am happy Jesus is not like most in leadership in this area because you see GOD has used me in services full of Caucasians even if they won't.

Its a reality, sad, and even if done subconsciously its still wrong.I hold no bitter feelings , it just saddens me because I know if I notice it many thers do also.
Persevering the way you have says a lot about your character. I think we're all missing out on something if you don't continue pursuing your ministry.

FWIW - I know of a DS from the South who would love to have more opportunities to use and license good "minority" candidates. (I've never heard him use the term "minority himself, but I know his burden).

[Coonskinner]

My youth pastor is Black.

My song leader is black.

The teacher for our young adults class is Black.

We have Black musicians and praise singers.

There may be some folks who are racists, but not us.

[Digging4Truth]

Hello,
With all due respect to my precious brethen and with an angle from a minority(Minority in this nations eyes (but not in Jesus' eyes).

I have lived all my life(42 years) in the south and have been in the Truth the last 20 years.

I have been under precious men of faith BUT there has always been that "understood unspoken law" , caucasians lead, everyone else follows.

I attempted to get my Lic. back in 1992 , not allowed because the Pastors son had to be the first one to get his Lic. at that church since he was next in line for the church.

I waited and waited nothing, I have read all the books , preached done all I was asked and nothing met all the requiremnets placed before me and nothing. I moved to TX where at least 50% of the congregations are made up of "minorities" at least in my area and yet NOT ONE "minority" pastor.

Many years ago there was always a stigma that was placed on the black race as "being to dumb" to know or do anything right, well now it has been extended to the Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Indians shall I go on.

There really is a problem, and I am happy Jesus is not like most in leadership in this area because you see GOD has used me in services full of Caucasians even if they won't.

Its a reality, sad, and even if done subconsciously its still wrong.I hold no bitter feelings , it just saddens me because I know if I notice it many thers do also.

These things happen in apostolic circles... as do child molestations, inappropriate contact with those under their leadership etc.

But the fact that these things happen does not broad brush paint everyone.

In the church I attend a young black man has recently been approached by the pastor and asked if he had ever considered becoming licensed with the UPC. He is now helping him begin that process. He saw the faithfulness of the brother and reacted as any good leader would.

I am sorry for what has happened to you in the places you have served. But please don't think that this is indicative of Apostolics everywhere.

[Trouvere]

wireless? How do you do the headsets and translations?

We have translaters who translate into mics picked up by headsets.Its not hard alot of bigger churches do this.

[Felicity]

My youth pastor is Black.

My song leader is black.

The teacher for our young adults class is Black.

We have Black musicians and praise singers.

There may be some folks who are racists, but not us.The man who assisted us in our church back home for awhile and later became pastor (is the pastor now) is a young black man married to a white girl. One of the finest young men you'll ever meet. His brother is also a wonderful young man, also married to a white girl who I taught in SS for a short time. They're fully appointed missionaries to Nigeria (I believe it's Nigeria).

[Felicity]

This is the same excuse that white churches have used for years to justify themselves. It's amazing that God has leaders in black churches isn't it?

You see, leadership is an art and it is learned. Leadership is the art of developing other people. As a leader, you determine who you will help develop into leaders. Character counts, but even character is developed and hopefully parroted from the pastor.

I'm not saying that you MUST put someone in a leadership position because of their color, but I am saying that if everything is equal, you should give the black person the advantage IF you are indeed reaching out to the black community!

Black leadership = I value the black community!Great post Mr. Pianoman!

[Praxeas]

We have translaters who translate into mics picked up by headsets.Its not hard alot of bigger churches do this.
right, but I am asking a specific question of how. Are they wireless? How do they sit in different areas and use them? Or are they in designated areas for their language?

[Praxeas]

Hello,
With all due respect to my precious brethen and with an angle from a minority(Minority in this nations eyes (but not in Jesus' eyes).

I have lived all my life(42 years) in the south and have been in the Truth the last 20 years.

I have been under precious men of faith BUT there has always been that "understood unspoken law" , caucasians lead, everyone else follows.

I attempted to get my Lic. back in 1992 , not allowed because the Pastors son had to be the first one to get his Lic. at that church since he was next in line for the church.

I waited and waited nothing, I have read all the books , preached done all I was asked and nothing met all the requiremnets placed before me and nothing. I moved to TX where at least 50% of the congregations are made up of "minorities" at least in my area and yet NOT ONE "minority" pastor.

Many years ago there was always a stigma that was placed on the black race as "being to dumb" to know or do anything right, well now it has been extended to the Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Indians shall I go on.

There really is a problem, and I am happy Jesus is not like most in leadership in this area because you see GOD has used me in services full of Caucasians even if they won't.

Its a reality, sad, and even if done subconsciously its still wrong.I hold no bitter feelings , it just saddens me because I know if I notice it many thers do also.
Interesting....we have Hispanic and even Portuguese pastors...we have black pastors and other ministers in California...We have Filipino too.

BTW the think about the Pastor and his son? That's nepotism not racism

[Sherri]

My youth pastor is Black.

My song leader is black.

The teacher for our young adults class is Black.

We have Black musicians and praise singers.

There may be some folks who are racists, but not us.
That's awesome, CS. I bet your church is the exception though in UPC.

[Praxeas]

I wonder how many white and hispanic preachers the PAW has in comparison to blacks?

[Coonskinner]

That's awesome, CS. I bet your church is the exception though in UPC.


I grew up hearing and using the "N" word commonly.

But then I got saved.

[Sherri]

I grew up hearing and using the "N" word commonly.

But then I got saved.
I love having a multicultural church; I'm sure it's what heaven will be like. I can't imagine our church without the different colors!!!

[Baby S.E.A.L.S. Club]

I am UPC, though I dont think we should divide, promote or discriminate on the basis of color.
If the United States military would take the stance that all soldiers are "Green", then being in God's Army, I declare all children of God are RED.
Blood Red.
If you are not Blood Red, then you are Sin Black. ( with no reference to the carnal).
The word declare that we should be neither Jew nor Greek, unless we become either/or to win that soul.

In MY UPC church, if we must look thru the carnal eye, we have:
white/anglo saints

we have an entire spanish daughter work (we are in texas: they have their own building because of their expansion/growth, praise God for new souls)

we have a Korean/Asian daughter work still within our walls,

We have an African daughter work within our walls

We have an Indian daughter work within our walls.
etc, etc etc

All of our people come to our worship services. They have seperate additional services for teaching because of language barriers, not cultural. They are my Brothers.

The respective Pastors sit on the Platform in all services.
God blesses this. God moves in this. Where He goes I will follow.

[Trouvere]

right, but I am asking a specific question of how. Are they wireless? How do they sit in different areas and use them? Or are they in designated areas for their language?

No they can sit in whatever part of the church they want.The interpreter wears the mic.Haven't you seen this at conferences?

[Praxeas]

No they can sit in whatever part of the church they want.The interpreter wears the mic.Haven't you seen this at conferences?
Trouver, how do the headphones get the feed from the mic? are they wireless or is there a plug in every seat?

[nwlife]

Mexican thinks he's white, he's a coconut.

Black thinks he's white, he's an oreo.

White thinks he's black, what is he?

One guess....burnt toast?


But to the orginal thought of the thread, I have ended up preaching more in black churches than any other...and I am as much of a pale face as any...And that is with native american in my veins as well!

[HeavenlyOne]

"Bragging" was too strong a word, and for that I apologize. My main point is that I'm wondering how many mixed culture Apostolic churches have black pastors.

Thad's church is one.

[crakjak]

I grew up hearing and using the "N" word commonly.

But then I got saved.

Likewise, Bro.

[lovinglife]

Likewise, Bro.

Same here...However not all churches can be that way because of the demographic of the surrounding area. but they should at least mirror the community they are located in....

[Hegavmelif]

I remember as a 15 yr old young man, inviting my older friend and neighbor to church. She said "...when I go to church, I go to a black church."

I don't agree, but I understand why someone of 'color' wouldn't trust my white preacher and his church full of....









mexicans. :lol


Speaking of racism...it is statements like this that really puzzles me...you advocate equality between black and white yet you slur the mexicans/hispanics. I am married to a Hispanic womanfor 22 years and am offended at your slur!! ADMIN where are you??

[StillStanding]

Speaking of racism...it is statements like this that really puzzles me...you advocate equality between black and white yet you slur the mexicans/hispanics. I am married to a Hispanic womanfor 22 years and am offended at your slur!! ADMIN where are you??
I believe that Berkeley himself is Hispanic. I think his comment was TIC at his own race! :)

[Hegavmelif]

I grew up hearing and using the "N" word commonly.

But then I got saved.

While working on my second Master's degree...I worked 3 years as a middle school teacher for a school district that has 39,000 students. Of the 39,000 students, less than 100 of them were 'white'. In the 60's the AA sued for racial equality in the education system. Where is that same request for balance today. The point is, they don't want balance, they are human just like the white people, they want total control.

And, by the way, I heard AA kids calling each other the 'N' word all day everyday. 'N' this and 'N' that. All day long, these AA kids called each other the 'N' word!!! Change must come from within.

It is obvious to me in all of the environments and places that I have lived and worked, respectively, that white people are more inclusive that AA. White people who get on the band wagon pointing their fingers at other whites about their percieved racism are more racist against their on culture than their white counterparts are agains AA.

[Praxeas]

Same here...However not all churches can be that way because of the demographic of the surrounding area. but they should at least mirror the community they are located in....
Right. In my area whites are a minority, but more than blacks. Hispanics make up the majority. The break down in order or numbers is hispanic, white, black then asians. And most of the black people go to the same churches they consider to be "black" churches with black pastors. Same with Hispanic and Filipino and Korean...then there are the other churches that are mixed pretty much along the demographic lines.

[Praxeas]

Speaking of racism...it is statements like this that really puzzles me...you advocate equality between black and white yet you slur the mexicans/hispanics. I am married to a Hispanic womanfor 22 years and am offended at your slur!! ADMIN where are you??
Just a not so subtle reminder to everyone but the Admin is or are not GOD. We are NOT omnipresent...so if you think there is a problem use the POST reporting tool and then the gods ...I mean the admins will take a look and see if it warrants any action. Also know that when we do an action we don't announce it to everyone

[Sister Alvear]

My kids have been hurt a lot over their color...such a shame

[Trouvere]

Sister Alvear your kids are beautiful.You have some of the most handsome sons in Brazil.