Should a Christian celebrate Christmas ?

[Sister Phyllis]

Should a Christian Celebrate Christmas?

There is no Biblical warrant, precedent, nor precept for remembrance of the day of Christ's birth as a day of special religious celebration. This is not to say that we shouldn't remember Christ's birth and its significance, but for religious commemorations or celebrations, we must have Biblical command or precedent! The fact of the matter is this -- the early church did not celebrate Christ's birth, but such celebration only came into the church with the "Christianization" of pagan rites as Catholicism was made the state religion by Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Since the Word of God does not support the tradition of Christmas, a Christian's conscience ought not and must not be bound.

The following outline describes the origin of Christmas (with its associated pagan customs, symbols, and terminology), details the Scriptural support against celebrating Christmas, attempts to show that celebrating Christmas violates the spirit of every one of the ten commandments, attempts to demonstrate that celebrating Christmas does not fall in the realm of Christian liberty, and attempts to debunk eight of the major rationalizations Christians put forth for celebrating Christmas.

I. The Origin of Christmas

A. A Long Evolution -- Christmas customs are an evolution from times long before the Christian period -- a descent from seasonal, pagan, religious, and national practices, hedged about with legend and tradition. Their seasonal connections with the pagan feasts of the winter solstice relate them to ancient times, when many of the earth's inhabitant's were sun worshipers. As the superstitious pagans observed the sun gradually moving south in the heavens and the days growing shorter, they believed the sun was departing never to return. To encourage the sun's return north (i.e., to give the winter sun god strength and to bring him back to life again), the sun gods were worshipped with elaborate rituals and ceremonies, including the building of great bonfires, decorating with great evergreen plants such as holly, ivy, and mistletoe, and making representations of summer birds as house decorations. The winter solstice, then, was the shortest day of the year, when the sun seemingly stood still in the southern sky. Observing the slowdown in the sun's southward movement, and its stop, the heathen believed that their petitions to it had been successful. A time of unrestrained rejoicing broke out, with revelry, drinking, and gluttonous feasts. Then, when the pagans observed the sun moving again northward, and a week later were able to determine that the days were growing longer, a new year was proclaimed.

B. Not Among the Earliest Christian Festivals -- Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. It was not celebrated, commemorated, or observed, neither by the apostles nor in the apostolic church -- not for at least the first 300 years of church history! History reveals that about 440 A.D., the Church at Jerusalem commenced the celebration of Christmas, following the lead of Roman Catholicism (see I.C.). It was sufficient for the early Christians that Jesus, their Lord and Savior, had been born. They praised God that Jesus Christ had, indeed, come in the flesh. The day and the time of His birth had no relevance to them, because Jesus was no longer physically on earth. He had returned to heaven. And it was the risen, exalted Christ to whom they looked, and that by faith -- not a babe laid in a manger. Jesus Christ is no longer a baby; no longer the "Christ-child," but the exalted Lord of all. And He does NOT somehow return to earth as a baby every year at Christmas-time -- though this is the impression given even in certain hymns sung in Protestant services. (See sub-report.)

C. The Role of Religion in Ancient Rome -- Seemingly forgotten is the essential role religion played in the world of ancient Rome. But the Emperor Constantine understood. By giving official status to Christianity, he brought internal peace to the Empire. A brilliant military commander, he also had the genius to recognize that after declaring Christianity the "state" religion (Constantine forced all the pagans of his empire to be baptized into the Roman Church), there was need for true union between paganism and Christianity. The corrupt Roman Church was full of pagans now masquerading as Christians, all of which had to be pacified. What better way than to "Christianize" their pagan idolatries. Thus, the Babylonian mystery religions were introduced by Constantine beginning in 313 A.D. (and established a foothold with the holding of the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.). The Constantine-led Roman Church was more than willing to adapt and adopt pagan practices in order to make Christianity palatable to the heathen. Constantine used religion as a political tool, totally devoid of any true spirituality:

Pagan rituals and idols took on Christian names (e.g., Jesus Christ was presented as the Sun of Righteousness [Malachi 4:2] replacing the sun god, Sol Invictus ).

Pagan holidays were reclassified as Christian holidays (holy-days).
December 25th was the "Victory of the Sun-God" Festival in the pagan Babylonian world. In the ancient Roman Empire, the celebration can be traced back to the Roman festival Saturnalia, which honored Saturn, the harvest god, and Mithras, the god of light; both were celebrated during or shortly after the winter solstice (between the 17th and 23rd of December). To all ancient pagan civilizations, December 25th was the birthday of the gods -- the time of year when the days began to lengthen and man was blessed with a "regeneration of nature." Moreover, all of December 25th's Babylonian and Roman festivals were characterized by 5-7 day celebration periods of unrestrained or orgiastic revelry and licentiousness.

December 25th was particularly important in the cult of Mithras, a popular deity in the Old Roman Empire. Robert Myers (a proponent for celebrating Christmas) in his book Celebrations, says:

"Prior to the celebration of Christmas, December 25th in the Roman world was the Natalis Solis Invicti, the Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun. This feast, which took place just after the winter solstice of the Julian calendar, was in honor of the Sun God, Mithras, originally a Persian deity whose cult penetrated the Roman world in the first century B.C. ... Besides the Mithraic influence, other pagan forces were at work. From the seventeenth of December until the twenty-third, Romans celebrated the ancient feast of the Saturnalia. ... It was commemorative of the Golden Age of Saturn, the god of sowing and husbandry."

In order to make Christianity palatable to the heathen, the Roman Church simply took Saturnalia, adopted it into Christianity, and then eventually many of the associated pagan symbols, forms, customs, and traditions were reinterpreted (i.e., "Christianized") in ways "acceptable" to Christian faith and practice. (In fact, in 375 A.D., the Church of Rome under Pope Julius I merely announced that the birth date of Christ had been "discovered" to be December 25th, and was accepted as such by the "faithful." The festival of Saturnalia and the birthday of Mithras could now be celebrated as the birthday of Christ!) The pagans flocked into the Catholic places of worship, because they were still able to worship their old gods, but merely under different names. It mattered not to them whether they worshiped the Egyptian goddess mother and her child under the old names (Isis and Horus), or under the names of the "Virgin Mary" and the "Christ-child." Either way, it was the same old idol-religion (cf. 1 Thes. 1:8-10; 5:22 -- Paul says to turn from idols, not rename them and Christianize them). Roman Catholicism's Christmas Day is nothing but "baptized" paganism, having come along much too late to be part of "the faith once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3).

D. "Christianization" of Pagan Customs, Symbols, and Terminology -- Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagan Rome could "convert" without giving up its old beliefs and rituals. The actual effect was to paganize official Christianity. "'A compound religion had been manufactured, of which ... Christianity furnished the nomenclature, and Paganism the doctrines and rights.' The idolatry of the Roman world, though deposed from its ancient pre-eminence, had by no means been demolished. Instead of this, its pagan nakedness had been covered with the garb of a deformed Christianity" (W.E. Vine). Pagan customs involving vestments, candles, incense, images, and processions were all incorporated into church worship and continue today.


Continuied inpart 2
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[Sister Phyllis]

D. "Christianization" of Pagan Customs, Symbols, and Terminology -- Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagan Rome could "convert" without giving up its old beliefs and rituals. The actual effect was to paganize official Christianity. "'A compound religion had been manufactured, of which ... Christianity furnished the nomenclature, and Paganism the doctrines and rights.' The idolatry of the Roman world, though deposed from its ancient pre-eminence, had by no means been demolished. Instead of this, its pagan nakedness had been covered with the garb of a deformed Christianity" (W.E. Vine). Pagan customs involving vestments, candles, incense, images, and processions were all incorporated into church worship and continue today.

The following customs and traditions associated with Xmas all have pagan/heathen origins. ("Xmas" is the more preferable form for the day, since it at least leaves the name of our Savior out of the heathen observance.) Naturally, Christians would not keep these customs for such evil and perverse reasons, but the fact of their origins remain -- "the customs of the people are vain" (Jer. 10:3), and should thereby be carefully considered by all who know and love the Lord:
1. The blasphemous "Christ's Mass" shortened to "Christ-mas" -- The Roman Catholic "Christ's Mass" is a special mass performed in celebration of Christ's birth. In this mass, Jesus is considered both the priest and the victim, represented by the Catholic priest who offers Him as a sacrifice each time the mass is performed. In offering this "sacrifice," the priest believes he has the power to change the bread and the wine of the Communion into Jesus' literal flesh and blood, requiring the people to worship these elements as they do God Himself. This is obviously a denial of the gospel, and thereby, a false gospel (a re-doing of the sacrifice for sin -- Heb. 9:12, 24-26; 10:10,12,14). Yet, many who cry out all year long against the blasphemous Roman Catholic system, at year-end embrace Rome's most blasphemous abomination of them all -- Christmas!

2. Nativity Scenes (tainted with paganism) -- Nearly every form of pagan worship descended from the Babylonian mysteries, which focus attention on the "mother-goddess" and the birth of her child. This was adapted to "Mary-Jesus" worship, which then easily accommodated the multitude of pagans "converted" to Christianity inside Constantine's Roman Catholic Church. If anyone were to erect statues (i.e., images) of Mary and Joseph by themselves, many within Protestant circles would cry "Idolatry!" But at Xmas time, an image of a little baby is placed with the images of Mary and Joseph, and it's called a "nativity scene." Somehow, the baby-idol "sanctifies" the scene, and it is no longer considered idolatry! (cf. Exo. 20:4-5a; 32:1-5a; 9-10a).

3. Christmas Tree -- Evergreen trees, because of their ability to remain green through-out the winter season when most other forms of vegetation are dormant, have long symbolized immortality, fertility, sexual potency, and reproduction, and were often brought into homes and set up as idols.

The full mystical significance of the evergreen can only be understood when one considers the profound reverence the ancient pagans had for all natural phenomena -- "To them, Nature was everywhere alive. Every fountain had its spirit, every mountain its deity, and every water, grove, and meadow, its supernatural association. The whispering of the trees ... was the subtle speech of the gods who dwelt within" (W.M. Auld, Christmas Traditions). This is nothing but nature worship or Animism.

The custom of bringing the tree into the home and decorating it as is done today has legendarily been attributed to Martin Luther. In truth, the modern custom has been lost in obscurity, but almost every culture has some such tradition. For ages, evergreen trees would be brought into the house during the winter as magic symbols of luck and hope for a fruitful year to come, It may also be that the star with which many of today's trees are topped did not originate as a representation of the star that the wise men followed, but rather a representation of the stars to which the ancient Chaldean astrologers looked for guidance.

The first decorating of an evergreen was done by pagans in honor of their god Adonis, who after being slain was brought to life by the serpent Aesculapius. The representation of the slain Adonis was a dead stump of a tree. Around this stump coiled the snake -- Aesculapius, symbol of life restoring. From the roots of the dead tree, then comes forth another and different tree -- an evergreen tree, symbolic to pagans of a god who cannot die! In Babylon, the evergreen tree came to represent the rebirth/reincarnation of Nimrod as his new son (Sun), Tammuz. In Egypt, this god was worshiped in a palm tree as Baal-Tamar. (Heathen people in the land of Canaan also adopted tree worship, calling it the Asherah -- a tree with its branches cut off was carved into a phallic symbol.) The fir tree was worshiped in Rome as the same new-born god, named Baal-Berith, who was restored to life by the same serpent. A feast was held in honor of him on December 25th, observed as the day on which the god reappeared on earth -- he had been killed, and was "reborn" on that day, victorious over death! It was called the "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun." Thus, the annual custom of erecting and decorating evergreen trees was brought down to us through the centuries by the pagan Roman Catholic Church -- the paganism of Tammuz and Baal, or the worship of the sun, mingled with the worship of Aesculapius the serpent. Whether erected in private homes or in churches, decorated or not, the evergreen tree is a glaring symbol of this false god.

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[Sister Phyllis]

4. Christmas Wreaths -- In pagan mythology, evergreen means eternal life and a never-dying existence. Made from evergreens, Christmas wreaths were most frequently round, which symbolized the sun (just as do halos in most religious art). Hence, the round Xmas wreaths stand for an eternal sun, a never-dying or self-renewing sun. In addition, the round form can also relate to the sign of the female, which stands for the regeneration of life. Because of these pagan associations, the Christian church was initially hostile towards the use of wreaths and other evergreen derivatives. But in the same way it Christianized other pagan traditions, the church soon found a way to confer its own symbolic meanings. For example, the sharp pointed leaves of the "male" holly came to represent Christ's crown of thorns and the red berries His blood, while the "female" ivy symbolized immortality (Sulgrave Manor, "A Tudor Christmas," p. 6). Such wreaths now not only adorn churches at Christmas time, but are also appearing during the equally pagan Easter season.

5. Mistletoe -- The use of the mistletoe plant (which is poisonous to both man and animals) can be traced back to the ancient Druids. (The Druids were pagan Celtic priests who were considered magicians and wizards.) It represented the false "messiah," considered by the Druids to be a divine branch that had dropped from heaven and grew upon a tree on earth. This is an obvious corruption of God's prophetic Word concerning Christ, "the Man the Branch," coming from heaven. The mistletoe symbolized the reconciliation between God and man. And since a kiss is the well known symbol of reconciliation, that is how "kissing under the mistletoe" became a custom -- both were tokens of reconciliation. The mistletoe, being a sacred plant and a symbol of fertility, was also believed to contain certain magical powers, having been brought to earth from heaven by a mistle thrush carrying it in its toes (hence the name). It was once known as the "plant of peace," and in ancient Scandinavia, enemies were reconciled under it (yet another reason why people came to "kiss under the mistletoe"). It was supposed to bring "good luck" and fertility, and even to protect from witchcraft the house in which it hung.

A kiss is also something which is, at times, associated with lust. So the practice of "kissing under the mistletoe" also had roots in the orgiastic celebrations in connection with the Celtic Midsummer Eve ceremony. At the time the mistletoe was gathered, the men would kiss each other as a display of their homosexuality. (The custom was later broadened to include both men and women.) Kissing under the mistletoe is also reminiscent of the temple prostitution and sexual license proliferating during Roman Saturnalia.

6. Santa Claus -- Santa Claus or "Father Christmas" is a corruption of the Dutch "Sant Nikolaas." ("Saint Nicholas" was the 4th century Catholic bishop of Myra in Asia Minor, who gave treats to children; he was canonized by the Roman Catholic Church, "regarded as a special friend and protector of children." The red suit comes from the fact that Catholic bishops and cardinals in Italy wear red.) Santa Claus was also known as "Kriss Kringle," a corruption of the German "Christ Kindl"-- Christ Child. This has to be one of the most subtle of Satan's blasphemies, yet most Christians are unaware of it.

Originally, the Santa Claus concept came from the pagan Egyptian god, Bes, a rotund, gnome-like personage who was the patron of little children. Bes was said to live at the North Pole, working year-round to produce toys for children who had been good and obedient to their parents. In Dutch, he was called "Sinter Klaas." Dutch settlers brought the custom to America. In Holland and other European countries, the original Santa Claus was actually a grim personage who traversed the countryside, determined to find out who really had been "naughty or nice." Those who had been acting up were summarily switched. The association of Santa Claus with snow, reindeer, and the North Pole suggests Scandinavian or Norse traditions of the Yuletide season. (In Babylonia, also, the stag [reindeer] was a symbol of the mighty one, Nimrod. The symbolism of antlers worn on the head of a noble leader would demonstrate his prowess as a hunter, and thereby, influence people to follow him.)

Santa is the blasphemous substitute for God! He is routinely given supernatural powers and divine attributes which only GOD has. Think about it. He is made out to be omniscient -- he knows when every child sleeps, awakes, has been bad or good, and knows exactly what every child wants (cf. Psa. 139:1-4). He is made out to be omnipresent -- on one night of the year he visits all the "good" children in the world and leaves them gifts, seemingly being everywhere at the same time. He is also made out to be omnipotent -- he has the power to give to each child exactly what each one wants. Moreover, Santa Claus is made out to be a sovereign judge -- he answers to no one and no one has authority over him, and when he "comes to town," he comes with a full bag of rewards for those whose behavior has been acceptable in his eyes.

Santa Claus has become one of the most popular and widely accepted and unopposed myths ever to be successfully interwoven into the fabric and framework of Christianity. It is a fact that Christ was born, and that truth should greatly rejoice the heart of every Christian. But the Santa Claus myth distorts the truth of Christ's birth by subtly blending truth with the myth of Santa Claus. When Christian parents lie to their children about Santa Claus, they are taking the attention of their children away from God and causing them to focus on a fat man in a red suit with god-like qualities. All of this teaches the child to believe that, just like Santa, God can be pleased with "good works," done in order to earn His favor. Also, they teach that no matter how bad the child has been, he will still be rewarded by God -- just as Santa never failed to bring gifts. Even in homes of professing Christians, Santa Claus has clearly displaced Jesus in the awareness and affections of children, becoming the undisputed spirit, symbol, and centerpiece of Christmas.

7. Christmas Eve -- "Yule" is a Chaldean word meaning "infant." Long before the coming of Christianity, the heathen Anglo-Saxons called the 25th of December "Yule day" -- in other words, "infant day" or "child's day" -- the day they celebrated the birth of the false "messiah"! The night before "Yule day" was called "Mother night." Today it is called "Christmas Eve." And it wasn't called "Mother night" after Mary, the mother of our Lord -- "Mother night" was observed centuries before Jesus was born. Semiramis (Nimrod's wife) was the inspiration for "Mother night," and "Child's day" was the supposed birthday of her son (Tammuz), the sun-god!

8. Yule Log -- The Yule log was considered by the ancient Celts a sacred log to be used in their religious festivals during the winter solstice; the fire provided promises of good luck and long life. Each year's Yule log had to be selected in the forest on Christmas Eve by the family using it, and could not be bought, or the superstitions associated with it would not apply. In Babylonian paganism, the log placed in the fireplace represented the dead Nimrod, and the tree which appeared the next morning (which today is called the "Christmas tree") was Nimrod alive again (reincarnated) in his new son (sun), Tammuz. (Still today in some places, the Yule log is placed in the fireplace on Christmas Eve, and the next morning there is a Christmas tree!)

Today's Yule log tradition comes to us from Scandinavia, where the pagan sex-and-fertility god, Jule, was honored in a twelve-day celebration in December. A large, single log was kept with a fire against it for twelve days, and each day for twelve days a different sacrifice was offered. The period now counted as the twelve days between Christmas and Epiphany was originally the twelve days of daily sacrifices offered to the Yule log. (What, then, are we really doing when we send "Yuletide greetings"? Are we really honoring Christ by sending greetings in the name of a Scandinavian fertility god? These are the same customs being practiced today as in ancient paganism! Only the names have changed.)

PART 4 COMING
SIS PHYLLIS

[Sister Phyllis]

Babylonians in honor of their god, and his altars had candles on them. And as is well known, candles are also a major part of the ritualism of Roman Catholicism, which adopted the custom from heathenism. Candles approached the Yule log in ritual importance. Like the Yule log, they had to be a gift, never a purchase, and were lighted and extinguished only by the head of the household. Such candles stood burning steadily in the middle of the table, never to be moved or snuffed, lest death follow. The Yule candle, wreathed in greenery, was to burn through Christmas night until the sun rose or the Christmas service began (Sulgrave Manor, "A Tudor Christmas," p. 9). Obviously, candles should have no part in Christian worship, for nowhere in the New Testament is their use sanctioned.

10. Giving of Gifts -- The tradition of exchanging gifts has nothing to do with a reenactment of the Magi giving gifts to Jesus, but has many superstitious, pagan origins instead. One prominent tradition was the Roman custom of exchanging food, trinkets, candles, or statutes of gods during the mid-winter Kalends (the first day of the month in the ancient Roman calendar). This custom was transferred to December 25th by the Roman Church in keeping with the Saturnalian festival and in celebration of the benevolent St. Nicholas. [Is it not the height of ridiculousness to claim that giving one another presents properly celebrates Jesus' "birthday" (not that there is anything necessarily wrong in giving each other presents)? But what are we giving Him, if indeed we are specifically celebrating His incarnation?]

11. Christmas Goose -- The "Christmas goose" and "Christmas cakes" were both used in the worship of the Babylonian "messiah." The goose was considered to be sacred in many ancient lands, such as Rome, Asia Minor, India, and Chaldea. In Egypt, the goose was a symbol for a child, ready to die! In other words, a symbol of the pagan "messiah," ready to give his life (supposedly) for the world. This is obviously a satanic mockery of the truth.

12. Christmas Ham -- Hogs were slaughtered and the eating of the carcass was one of the central festivities of the Saturnalia. Each man would offer a pig as a sacrifice because superstition held that a boar had killed the sun deity Adonis. Hence, the tradition of the Christmas ham on Christmas Day and New Year's Day.

13. Christmas Stocking -- According to tradition, a poor widower of Myra, Turkey, had three daughters, for whom he could not provide a dowry. On Xmas-Eve, "Saint Nicholas" threw three bags of gold down the chimney, thereby saving the daughters from having to enter into prostitution. One bag rolled into a shoe, and the others fell into some stockings that had been hung to dry by the fire. Hence, the beginning of the tradition of the "Christmas stocking" or "boot."

14. Christmas Cards -- The first British Xmas card can be dated back to 1843. The first cards featured pictures of dead birds! Evidently, the popularity of hunting robin and wren on Christmas Day made the dead bird image an appropriate one for "holiday" cards. Often the text of the cards would also have a morbid tone. Later, the cards displayed dancing insects, playful children, pink-cheeked young women, and festively decorated Christmas trees. The first actual Xmas cards were really Valentine's Day cards (with different messages) sent in December. Mass production of Xmas cards in the United States can be traced back to 1875. Initially, the manufacturers thought of Xmas cards as a sideline to their already successful business in playing cards. But the "tradition" of sending cards soon caught on, leading to a very profitable business by itself.

15. Christmas Carols -- What do you suppose the reaction would be by a church's leaders if its pastor were to propose that the following hymns be introduced into the church to commemorate the birth of Christ? After all, the tunes are quite lovely.
Hymn #1 -- A hymn by a Unitarian minister (Unitarians reject the Trinity and full deity of Christ) that does not mention Jesus Christ and reflects the liberal social gospel theology of the 19th century.

Hymn #2 -- A hymn by an American Episcopal priest, the fourth verse of which teaches Roman Catholic superstition about Christ coming to be born in people during the Advent season.

Hymn #3 -- A song, the words by an Austrian Roman Catholic priest, the music by a Roman Catholic schoolteacher, containing the Roman Catholic superstition about halos emanating from holy people, with no gospel message.
Perhaps you would expect the church's leaders to be very upset. It might surprise you to learn that they were upset when they suspected that the pastor might somehow prevent them from singing them! You see, those three hymns were already in the church's hymnals! The pastor did not have to introduce them. The three theologically incorrect "Christmas carols" referred to above are It Came Upon the Midnight Clear, O Little Town of Bethlehem, and Silent Night. (See the sub-report for an evaluation of some of the most popular Xmas carols found in church hymnals today.)

E. European Xmas Traditions -- In the early days of Christianity, as it moved north and west into Europe, many pagan celebrations were encountered. For example, in the late-6th century in England, the Angles and Saxons were found celebrating Yule. The Christian evangelists thought they would fail in any attempt to rival, suppress, or stamp out such long held customs, so they simply adopted popular dates for their own "special rituals and hallowed services." In other words, it was easier to establish a festival celebrating the birth of Christ if it conveniently coincided with an existing popular pagan feast day. In this way, the pagan peoples (albeit potential converts to Christianity) could continue with their usual celebrations at this time of year, but the reason for the merrymaking could be redefined and attributed to Christ's birth rather than to any pagan rituals. As paganism eventually died out and Christianity became widespread, Christmas became increasingly more associated with its religious foundations than any others (Sulgrave Manor, "A Tudor Christmas," p. 2).

It was left to the Puritans to denounce everything. For them, Christmas was rightfully part popish, part pagan, and was forbidden to be kept as a holiday or feast day. The attack began in 1644 when the Puritans controlled the Parliament; December 25th was changed to a Fast Day. By 1647, even the Fast Day was abolished as a relic of superstition, synonymous with the Church of Rome. No observation on December 25th was any longer permitted, but the day was to be observed as a normal market-day. Christmas was accurately depicted by such names as the Profane Man's Ranting Day, the Superstitious Man's Idol Day, the Papist's Massing Day, the Old Heathen's Feasting Day, the Multitude's Idle Day, and Satan -- that Adversary's -- Working Day. In those days, any Christmas celebrations would be broken up by troops, who would tear down decorations and arrest anyone holding a service. Some who celebrated it in Europe were also thrown into prison. Because of the riots that broke out following the banning of Christmas, the celebrations and revelry were restored in 1660 by King Charles II, a Roman Catholic (Sulgrave Manor, "A Tudor Christmas," p. 3).

F. American Xmas Traditions -- America's settlers (the "founding fathers" of so-called "Protestant America") rightfully considered Christmas a "popish" holiday. In fact, it was only in the early 1800s that several founding members of the New York Historical Society "invented" Christmas. Before then, it was illegal in colonial Massachusetts to even take December 25th off work. Christmas was forbidden as "unseemly to ye spiritual welfare of ye community." (It was banned in Massachusetts in 1659, and this law remained on the books for 22 years. In Boston, public schools stayed open on December 25th until as late as 1870!) It wasn't until 1836 that any state declared Christmas a holiday (Alabama), and then there were no more state declarations until the Civil War. It was not until 1885 that all federal workers were given Christmas Day off. The so-called Xmas customs and traditions were later concocted more for commercial purposes than for religious.

Quoting from a 12/23/83 USA TODAY article about Christmas: "A broad element of English Christianity still considered Christmas celebration a pagan blasphemy. The Puritans, Baptists, Quakers, Presbyterians, Calvinists and other denominations brought this opposition to early New England and strong opposition to the holiday lasted in America until the middle of the 18th century." Henry Ward Beecher, a Congregationalist, wrote in 1874 of his New England boyhood:
"To me Christmas is a foreign day, and I shall die so. When I was a boy I wondered what Christmas was. I knew there was such a time, because we had an Episcopal church in our town, and I saw them dressing it with evergreens, and wondered what they were taking the woods in the church for; but I got no satisfactory explanation. A little later I understood it was a Romish institution, kept by the Romish Church."

PART 5 COMING
SIS PHYLLIS

[Sister Phyllis]

II. Scriptural Support Against Celebrating Christmas -- Unacceptable Worship

A. 2 Chron. 33:15-17 -- The Israelites had kept the old pagan form (the high places of Baal), but had merely introduced the worship of God into that form -- a refusal to let go of pagan worship forms (i.e., God was to be worshiped in the Temple, not on the high places). This was unacceptable worship because the right object of worship was mixed with wrong forms of worship; i.e., the mixing of godly worship with ungodly form. Likewise, is not the celebration of Christmas the taking of a celebration established by pagans and for pagans, and then introducing the worship of Christ into that pagan form?

B. Deut. 12:29-32 -- God warned His people Israel to destroy all vestiges of pagan worship that they found in the "Promised Land." Not only did God want to prevent His people from being enticed to worship false gods, but He also specifically revealed that He did not want His people to worship Him in the same manner in which the heathen worshiped their gods. We know, therefore, that our Lord is displeased by practices which profess to honor Him, but which are copied from the tradition of false religions. The command here was to worship God only in His way, i.e., do only what God commands -- not adding to God's commands nor taking away from them. Therefore, is not "putting Christ back into Christmas," worshiping "the Lord your God their way"? Is there any command in the Bible to give special reverence to the Scriptural account of Christ's birth more so than to any other Scripture, let alone even a suggestion to celebrate or commemorate His birth in any way whatsoever? God never intended for His people to be imitators of the pagan customs of the world, but has called us to be separate and set apart.

C. Lev. 10:1,2 -- Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire to the Lord. Is not the celebration of Christmas, with all its pagan symbols and forms, a "strange fire" unto the Lord, and is not this form of worship contrary to what God commands?

D. 1 Sam. 15:1-3, 7-9, 21-23 -- Saul disobeyed God's prophet in order to worship God in his way. Is not the celebration of Christmas one of man's ways of worshiping Christ? There is certainly no Biblical command to offer worship in this manner.

E. 2 Sam. 6:2-7 -- David attempts to transport the ark on a "new cart" instead of using the rings and poles as the Law required (Exo. 25:12-15). Additionally, the "transporters" of the ark were not even authorized to carry it (1 Chron. 15:2, 13-15); i.e., the ark was not only transported in the wrong way, but was transported by the wrong people! Is not the celebration of Christmas the wrong way (pagan forms and tradition) with the wrong people (the heathen of the world join right in with the professing Christians)?

F. 1 Ki. 12:26-33 -- In order to unify the northern ten tribes of Israel, ungodly King Jeroboam set up pagan idols, not in place of God, but as new focal points for directing worship to God. He even instituted a new festival on a new day; i.e., a new religious holiday of his own choosing. Even though the true God of Israel was still to be the object of worship in the new religious holiday, both the holiday and the worship were not authorized by God nor accepted by Him (1 Ki. 13:1-3; 15:29,30). Why? Because the concocted mixture of error with truth constituted false religion! Likewise, is not the celebration of Christmas a religious holiday of man's own choosing, replete with pagan symbols and forms, all under the guise (by sincere Christians at least) of worshiping the one true God and Savior? But does not this worship form and system still constitute false religion, and thereby, make it unacceptable to God? And besides, where in the Bible do Christians have the right to add a new holy day to the so-called Christian calendar, any more than King Jeroboam had the right to add a new holy day to God's theocratic calendar?

G. 1 Cor. 8:4-13; Rom. 14:1-13; 1 Cor. 10:14, 18-21 -- These passages concerning Christian liberty are discussed in more detail under Roman numeral IV. [Christian liberty can best be defined Biblically as "the freedom to engage in practices not prohibited by the Scriptures or denying oneself what is permitted (i.e., a moral choice of self-discipline) in order to be a more effective witness for God." So the question must first be answered, "Is Christmas permitted?"] Briefly, some claim that Paul is teaching that the participation in pagan forms condemns no one, and therefore, participation in Christmas and its forms, even though arising out of pagan idolatry, is inconsequential. However, Paul nowhere approves participation in acts of idolatry, of which the participation in the pagan forms of Christmas comes dangerously close to doing. Instead, Paul is speaking of the liberty to continue in Jewish days of worship/festival that had been previously ordained under the Jewish law. There is certainly no liberty to bring outside pagan forms into the church's worship services. Likewise, there is no liberty to Christianize Babylonian/Roman pagan holy days as special days.

Christians in the first century churches had the liberty to observe Old Testament holy days and feasts (days that had previously been revealed by God) if they were so immature as to do so. The weaker brother, Paul wrote, was at that time not to be censured for continuing to attach some importance to the Old Testament holy days, as a clear knowledge of their abolition in Christ was not yet given to him (the weaker brother). But to observe a pagan holy day is something this passage does not sanction. They certainly did not have the liberty to regard Babylonian/Roman pagan holy days (days that were invented by the devil) as special days. Again, that would have been idolatry, worldliness, and perhaps even a form of Satan worship on their part. Therefore, how can the observance of Christmas Day, or any other Babylonian/Roman Catholic holy day, be a matter of Christian liberty?

Yet when some of us refuse to regard the pagan holy days as special days, we are the ones often referred to as the "weaker brother" in this matter! Are we opposed to such days because we are "weak in faith"? Faith would be defined as believing what the Word of God says about a matter and acting upon it. It was by faith that we stopped regarding pagan holy days as special days. Would we be more mature Christians if we would start regarding such days again? It would certainly be much easier on our families and us.


III. Christmas and the (Spiritual) Violation of the Ten Commandments (reverse order)

A. Do Not Covet -- Children learn to covet the gifts of others, to drool over the Christmas catalog, to drag their parents endlessly through toy stores, all in the name of "the Christmas spirit."
B. Do Not Bear False Witness -- "Jesus is the reason for the season!" is the Christian battle cry to "put Christ back in Christmas," when in actuality, there is not only no Biblical warrant for Christmas, but its roots are in pagan worship systems. Nevertheless, professing Christians lie to their children about Santa Claus, the supernatural, sorcerous false "god" of Christmas, whose "gospel" is one of works salvation along with unconditional acceptance and rewards. Parents lie to their children for years about the god-like character of Santa Claus, in effect asking them to trust in a false god and a lie, and then don't understand why later in life their children won't believe and trust in the true God, Jesus Christ.

C. Do Not Steal -- Christmas spending patterns could never stand the test of Biblical stewardship; i.e., Christians, in celebrating Christmas, "steal" the Lord's resources by ignoring their proper use; lavishly spend these resources on worthless and useless trinkets (in many cases); and withhold resources from those in need, while at the same time claiming to never have enough money to buy good Christian books, pay for home schooling, or buy Bible helps for their children. (Christians could also be helping the spiritually needy by buying and giving them tracts, books, etc.) We "steal" from our families what they need and what we owe them in order to buy gifts for those who don't need them.

PART 6 COMING
SIS PHYLLIS

[Michael Phelps]

YES.

[Sister Phyllis]

D. Do Not Commit Adultery -- At this "special" time of the year, lustful thoughts are actually encouraged; e.g., teens are allowed to go to parties and stay out later, thereby having temptations put in front of them that otherwise wouldn't be there. Christmas parties for adults also encourage evil thoughts through the use of the mistletoe, etc. (According to Matt. 5, such thoughts constitute adultery. At the very least, spiritual adultery is encouraged by the "season.")

E. Do Not Murder -- Envy and hate of my brother (which, according to Matt. 5, is equal to murder) because he has more than me or because he receives a larger Christmas bonus than me, is encouraged at Christmas time. We also tend to spiritually sacrifice our children to the "god of Christmas" via greed, selfishness, etc.

F. Honor Father and Mother -- Christmas gift-giving is not an honor to parents; the term "exchanging" gifts (i.e., giving in expectation of a return) is a dead give-away of the mockery associated with this tradition.

G. Remember the Sabbath and Keep It Holy -- Although we recognize that the Lord's Day is not the "Christian Sabbath," clearly the Lord's Day is to be kept for worship and observed as such. Yet when Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, or the day after Christ-mas falls on a Sunday, most churches adjust the Lord's Day to accommodate Christ-mas, usually by canceling the regularly scheduled Sunday evening service. Most of its members are too busy or too tired to attend services anyway.

H. Do Not Take the Lord's Name in Vain -- "Christ" and "mass" are two words that are totally opposite from one another, and to connect the two is to blaspheme the name of Christ. By taking a pagan celebration, "Christianizing" it, and calling it a celebration of the birth of Christ, is most certainly taking the Lord's name in vain. (A good example of the willingness of the professing church to profane the name of the Lord would be the title of a popular children's Christmas concert production -- The Divine Ornament. Imagine, identifying our Lord with a pagan ornament to hang on a pagan tree! What insult! What blasphemy!) In addition, some professing Christians use religion ("Christ's birthday") as a cloak to cover the evils of covetousness, idolatry, greed, immorality, etc. -- all excuses to give vent to evil lusts.

I. Do Not Make Yourself Any Carved Image -- Nativity scenes, "pictures" of Christ, Christmas cards with "pictures" of Jesus, etc., all violate this command. God has given us His Word, not images, to teach us about Christ (1 Pe. 1:23; Dt. 4:12, 15-19).

J. Have No Other Gods Before Me -- The "god of Christmas" is idolatrous! Looking to the Christmas season for happiness, joy, and fulfillment, rather than through a pure, personal, and Biblical relationship with Jesus Christ, is idolatry.


IV. Is a Christian's Decision to Celebrate Christmas a Part of Christian Liberty?

A. Romans 14:1-13 -- This passage is speaking of Jews who were observing the Old Testament Jewish holy days/festivals and dietary laws even though they were now believers in Christ; but they were also judging their Gentile brothers-in-the-Lord who did not observe the Jewish customs. Likewise, the Gentile Christians were judging their Jewish brothers who were seemingly caught-up in ceremonial law. Paul was thusly saying, "To you Gentile Christians -- leave the Jewish Christians alone, because they are not violating any Scriptural commands by their actions (i.e., it's a "disputable" matter [doubtful or gray area] and not a moral issue). To you Jewish Christians -- it's okay for you to observe the Jewish festivals and dietary laws because they were given by God in the Old Testament, and thereby, are considered to be previously approved worship forms, but don't judge your Gentile brothers, because there is no Biblical command for either of you to continue to observe these things." (Actually, it wasn't "okay" [see IV.C. below], but Paul allowed it as an act of an immature/weaker brother [see II.G. above].) If a moral issue is involved (i.e., a practice that is covered in Scripture), then this passage and its application to Christian liberty (i.e., the freedom to engage in practices not prohibited by Scripture) would obviously not apply. And as brought out earlier in this report, the celebration of Christmas appears to be such a moral issue, because its celebration is not only not from God, but is from ancient paganism itself!

B. 1 Corinthians 8:4-13 -- The Gentile Christians, who had been raised in an idolatrous system, were having a problem with their Jewish brothers who were eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols. (Apparently, this was the only "healthy" meat available.) Similar to the Romans 14 passage above, Paul says that eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols is not a moral issue, and thereby, is not prohibited. However, Paul does not say that it is okay to go into the pagan temple itself; in fact, in other passages (1 Cor 10:14, 18-21), Paul specifically prohibits getting involved with the pagan feasts. In other words, it's not a moral issue to partake in the byproducts of a pagan religious system (note, however, that there is no indication here that the Jewish Christians were using the "idol meat" as part of their worship), but it is not okay to partake in the religious system itself (because the corrupt character of the participants would be harmful for believers). Rather, we must be separate from the worldly system (2 Cor 6:14-7:1). Therefore, when items (byproducts) associated with a pagan religious system not only develop religious associations of their own, but have been integrated into what would otherwise be true Christian worship (as the celebration of Christmas has clearly become in our culture), then we should pull away from them so that there is no confusion over our allegiances.

C. Galatians 4:9-10; Colossians 2:16-17 -- Both these passages of Scripture refer to the Jewish holy days under Old Testament law. If Christians were not even to observe the Old Testament holy days -- days that did have divine sanction, for a time -- they certainly don't have the liberty to observe pagan holy days!

D. James 4:11 -- James is saying that Christians may only judge a brother on matters determined in God's Word (i.e., moral issues). If a matter is not covered in the Word, then these are matters of Christian liberty (á la Rom. 14:1-13 and 1 Cor 8:4-13), and he who judges in these areas of Christian liberty is, in effect, judging and condemning the Word of God as being an imperfect standard to which the judge, thereby, refuses to submit. On the other hand, since we have clear Scriptural precept that condemns the things that go on around December 25th in the name of Christ, the celebration of Christmas does not appear to be a matter of liberty, but one of moral conduct.


next section comin g
sis phyllis

[Sister Phyllis]

V. The Right Response

A. Quench Not the Holy Spirit (1 Thes 5:19-22) -- Test all things against the Scripture and line-up beliefs and actions with what is true (i.e., do not treat with contempt the Word of God). If one is convinced that to celebrate Christmas is sin, then he and his family must not compromise with the world or the church by participating in any Christmas celebrations (Rom. 14:23).

B. Avoid Traps of the Devil:

1. Lack of Zeal -- One who never considers why he does certain things, but he just does them because he always has or because his parents always have; one who acts on emotions rather than on facts.

2. Lack of Truth -- One who does things for good reasons and right motives (i.e., plenty of zeal), but not in truth.

C. Realize that Christians Celebrating Christmas as the Day of Christ's Birth Makes No More Sense than Adding Any of the Following Days as Special Days of Christian Celebration: -- (Remember, the Bible's focus on the birth of Christ is for the sole purpose of documenting his virgin birth, his incarnation, and the fulfillment of His prophetic Messiahship. Like the tongue-in-cheek suggestions below, one must also remember that there is no Biblical warrant, precedent, nor precept for the remembrance of the day of Christ's birth as a day of special religious celebration.)

1. Baptism Celebration -- Why not have three days of swimming parties in the summer in order to celebrate/symbolize Christ's three days in the grave? We could even pick a time based upon our speculation of when John the Baptist baptized Jesus!

2. Ascension Celebration -- Why not have one day set aside every year for hot-air balloon rides in order to celebrate Christ's ascension to heaven?

3. Miracle Celebration -- There is considerable Biblical focus on Jesus' miracles (even more than on his birth), so why not have one day set aside every year to celebrate the first of Christ's miracles? And since that was the turning of water into wine (John 2), why not have "Christian" wine-tasting parties?

D. Avoid the Rationalizations that:

1. "Christmas Provides a Festive Time to Share the Gospel" -- One cannot take something condemned in God's Word and "use it" to spread the Gospel; neither will God bless it to spread His Word. Unacceptable worship and the "mixing-in" of unholy/pagan forms is surely not the normal means through which God blesses the faithful. Satan works to blend together his system with God's system, because when unacceptable worship (paganism) is blended with true worship (God's truth), true worship is destroyed. In fact, any time one mixes pagan ideas and practices with the pure religion of Christ, it is condemned in Scripture as the heinous sin of idolatry! God has always detested taking those things dedicated to idols and using them to worship Him. As a matter of fact, this "special time of the year" is probably more a hindrance to the receptiveness of the gospel message than a help. Much of the celebration observed by our contemporary society deludes people into assuming that God is pleased, when in reality, He is offended by false religion, pseudo-worship, and alien philosophies. The ecumenical spirit and a counterfeit "love" under the guise of "peace and goodwill among men," more than likely dulls one's sensitivity to his desperate need to repent of sin and be reconciled to a holy God.

2. "Christmas is Merely the Honoring of Christ's Birth" -- Someone says, "I know Christmas is of pagan origin, but I still think it's not wrong for a church to have a special time for honoring Christ's birth." But since when did Protestants believe that Christians have the right to add to the Bible? Is the church a legislative body? Are we to follow the Bible in our faith and practice, or the thinking of fallible men? If we have the right to add a special holy day to the Christian economy, then we can add 10,000 other things. Then we will be no better than the false cults and the Roman Catholics who follow heathen traditions! [Besides, celebrating Christ's birth is a form of worship. But since Christmas is a lie, those who celebrate it are not worshiping in "spirit and truth" (John 4:24).]

3. "All I'm Doing is Putting Christ Back into Christmas" -- The modern conservative cry to put Christ back into Christmas is absurd. As detailed earlier in this report, Jesus Christ was never in Christmas. It's a lie to say He was. He has no part in a lie. When anyone takes the truth and mixes it with a lie, they no longer have the truth. They have changed the truth into a lie. Neither is it possible to take a lie and mix it with enough truth to change the lie into the truth. You still come out with a lie. One may say, "Well, I know it's not the truth, but I'll put Christ back in Christmas and glorify God in it then." No, you won't. Christ never was in Christmas. You cannot change a lie into the truth. It should in reality be called Baal-mass, Nimrod-mass, Tammuz-mass, Mithras-mass, or Mary-mass. Christ-mass is a lie. Why use a lie as a good time for a fundamental truth (the incarnation) of the Christian faith?

4. "I'm Using Christmas to Witness for Christ, Just Like the Apostle Paul Did" -- Some say that all they are doing is taking the "truth" from Christmas (i.e., the incarnation of Christ) and "cultivating" it as the Apostle Paul did (Acts 17/Mars Hill), taking the opportunity of the season to witness to a lost world. This would be fine if these Christians were actually doing only as Paul did. Paul, in addressing the Greek philosophers on Mars Hill, proclaimed to them that their "unknown god" to whom they had erected an altar, was none other than "the God who made the world and all the things therein." Paul was not intimidated by the pagan surroundings and symbolisms, nor did he berate the Greeks for their error, but merely showed them the truth of the gospel of Christ.

But do Christians really use the "opportunity presented by the season" in the same way as Paul used the opportunity of the pagan altar? Do Christians personally stand in front of their hometown public displays of Xmas (Nativity scenes, etc.) and preach the gospel? To paraphrase Paul, do they say: "Men of Indianapolis, I see that in every way you are very religious; what you worship as something unknown, I am going to proclaim to you"? Do they come out of the public schools, where they have just attended their children's Xmas programs, and preach to the attendees about the true God who has been grossly misrepresented in the program they have just witnessed?

Hardly. Even to most of those who understand the true origin of Xmas, this "unique time of year" means inviting unbelievers into their homes to gather around the Xmas tree, to enjoy the beauty of the wreaths, absorb the heat from the Yule log, etc., reasoning that they are only using the pagan forms and the pagan festival season as an opportunity to witness. If Paul meant this in Acts 17, he would have met the people in the Athenian temple or in his or their homes, gathering around their idols that he had Christianized and was now using as a part of his worship. Most of the people who decorate their homes and churches with Xmas trees, holly wreaths, Nativity scenes, etc., all supposedly to be used as "opportunities" via "Xmas coffees," neighborhood "grab bag" gift exchanges, Xmas concerts, etc., are thoroughly convinced that they're doing God a service. And since they are not involved in the crass secular "commercialization" that the world revels in, but have instead "put Christ back in Xmas" (so to speak), they reason that all is Biblical and pleasing to God.


PART 8 COMING
SIS PHYLLIS

[Sister Phyllis]

VI. Conclusion

The very popularity of Christmas should cause the Christian to question it. Anyone and everyone can celebrate Christmas without question -- outright pagans, nominal Christians, and even Buddhists and Hindus. If, in reality, December 25th were a date set by God to remember the birth of Jesus, there is no doubt that the world would have nothing to do with it. After all, God has commanded one day in seven -- the Lord's Day -- to worship Him. Does the world observe it? Of course not. As expected, the world loves Christmas, but hates the Lord Jesus Christ (John 15:18, 23-25). It shuns anything pertaining to true religion. Shouldn't the Christian be just a little suspicious of a celebration in which the whole sinful world can join without qualms?

One way to test the Scripturalness of our practices is to reflect on what we would expect missionaries to teach new converts in a foreign culture. We assume that they would use the Bible as their guidebook. If they could start new local churches without importing American culture encumbered with Roman Catholicism, liberal Protestantism, and crass commercialism, wouldn't it be wonderful? Missionaries who have urged new converts to forsake all pagan superstitious relics have later been questioned about the apparent inconsistency of their own American Christmas customs. Nationals perceived them as idolatrous even though the missionaries were oblivious to that possibility!

When Christmas is exposed for what it really is, this angers people. It angers Evangelical Protestant people! And there is reason why it does so. When the pagan celebration of Christmas is rooted up, and rejected, then what has become a Protestant tradition is, in effect, being rejected! And that is why people become angry. It began as a Roman Catholic holy day, and then it became a Protestant holy day. And if anyone dares show it up for what it really is, they face the wrath of the Protestant religious machine. And these days, that can be very ugly.

Christmas is a thoroughly pagan holiday -- in its origin, in its trappings, and in all its traditions. Perhaps we should contemplate the words of Charles Haddon Spurgeon, delivered in a Lord's Day sermon on December 24, 1871:
"We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called Christmas: first, because we do not believe in the mass at all, but abhor it, whether it be said or sung in Latin or in English; and secondly, because we find no Scriptural warrant whatever for observing any day as the birthday of the Saviour; and consequently, its observance is a superstition, because [it's] not of divine authority. Superstition has fixed most positively the day of our Saviour's birth, although there is no possibility of discovering when it occurred. ...

"It was not till the middle of the third century that any part of the church celebrated the nativity of our Lord; and it was not till very long after the Western church had set the example, that the Eastern adopted it. Because the day is not known, therefore superstition has fixed it; ... Where is the method in the madness of the superstitious? Probably the fact is that the holy days were arranged to fit in with the heathen festivals. ... We venture to assert that if there be any day in the year of which we may be pretty sure that it was not the day on which the Saviour was born, it is the twenty-fifth of December. ... regarding not the day, let us, nevertheless, give God thanks for the gift of His dear Son."
And from Dr. H.A. Ironside's Lectures on the Book of Revelation (1920: p. 301):
"It is a lamentable fact that Babylon's principles and practices are rapidly but surely pervading the churches that escaped from Rome at the time of the Reformation. We may see evidences of it in the wide use of high-sounding ecclesiastical titles, once unknown in the reformed churches, in the revival of holy days and church feasts such as Lent, Good Friday, Easter, and Christ's Mass, or, as it is generally written, Christmas. ... some of these festivals ... when they are turned into church festivals, they certainly come under the condemnation of Galatians 4:9-11, where the Holy Spirit warns against the observance of days and months and times and seasons. All of them, and many more that might be added, are Babylonish in their origin, and were at one time linked with the Ashtoreth and Tammuz mystery-worship. It is through Rome that they have come down to us; and we do well to remember that Babylon is a mother, with daughters who are likely to partake of their mother's characteristics ..."
And, finally, from Alexander Hislop's 1916 classic, The Two Babylons: Or the Papal Worship:
"Upright men strove to stem the tide, but in spite of all their efforts, the apostasy went on, till the Church, with the exception of a small remnant, was submerged under Pagan superstition. That Christmas is a Pagan festival is beyond all doubt. The time of the year and the ceremonies with which it is still celebrated, prove its origin."
We can summarize by saying that nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to commemorate the birth of our Lord, and God the Father evidently deemed it unwise to make the date known. Hence, it will always remain unknown and is not to be ceremoniously remembered and celebrated. (In fact, as pointed out in the Ironside quote above, God has warned us about getting entangled with any special days [Gal. 4:10]). Notice though, that we are commanded to remember Him in His death (but no special day was specified for this either):
"Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; this DO in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:18,19; 1 Cor. 11:23-26).
To commemorate His death is Scriptural. Any day of the year will do. To commemorate His birth is non-Scriptural, even extra-Scriptural (Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Prov. 30:6; Rev. 22:19), whether one chooses December 25th or any other day.
If God had desired us to remember the day of Christ's birth, He could have left us the precise date. But if He had, He would have vindicated every astrologer in the past 2,000 years. In occult circles, the anniversary of a person's birth is the most important metaphysical day of the year. The Bible recognizes no such significance. It is intriguing that there are only two birthday celebrations recorded in the entire Bible and they were both those of ungodly kings -- and both resulted in an execution (Gen. 40:16-22 and Matt. 14:6-10/Mark 6:21-27)!

The Apostle Paul says: "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross [not the manger] of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world" (Gal. 6:14). By itself, we find no salvation in the birth of the Lord Jesus, for salvation was only made possible through His death (i.e., His shed blood) and resurrection. Our focus should be on the cross and our ascended Savior, not in a cradle.
Those who love Jesus should certainly rejoice that He was born and lived amongst us as a man. But if we truly want to glorify Him and bear testimony of who He is, we must stop marrying that blessed gift with the debauchery of paganism. If we want to honor His birth, let it be done as He would have done it: year-round unselfishly serving our fellow man as an unending act of love for our God. Let us put away all of the mixture of pagan customs and take up His mantle and His pure worship, and show the confused world that there is a difference.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BIBLIOGRAPHY/SOURCES
1. Assemblies of Yahweh. The Case Against Christmas. Sacred Name Broadcaster, Bethel, PA,23 pp.

2. Becker, R.F. The Truth About Christmas. Chapel Library, Venice, FL, 36 pp.

3. Blanton, Raymond. The Christmas Lie. Highways & Hedges Tracts, Liberty, SC, 13 pp.

4. Buday, George. The History of the Christmas Card. Putman Pub., New York, 1954, 304 pp.

5. Dager, Albert James. "The Origins of Christmas Traditions," Media Spotlight Special Report Redmond, WA, 1985, 2 pp.

6. Dickey, D.J. & Shetler, Earl. "Should A Christian Celebrate Christmas?" Grace Reformed Baptist Church, Vernonia, OR, 10/89: three-part sermon series -- each on a 90-minute audio cassette tape.

7. Dossey, Donald. Holiday Folklore, Phobias and Fun: Mythical Origins, Scientific Treatments & Superstitious "Cures." Outcomes Unltd. Press, Asheville, NC, 1995 (paper ed.), 232 pp.

8. Elwell, Walter A. (Ed.). Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1984, pp. 218-221.

9. Halff, Charles. The Truth About Christmas. The Christian-Jew Foundation, San Antonio, TX, 13 pp.

10. Halff, Charles. "Is Christmas a Jewish Holiday?" Message Of The Christian Jew. November-December 1993, pp. cover, 1,2 & 7.

11. Helgerson, John C. Considering the Christmas Issue. The Church of the Open Bible, Burlington, MA, 12/31/90, 12 pp.

12. Hislop, Alexander. The Two Babylons: Or The Papal Worship. Loizeaux Bros., Neptune, NJ, 1959:Second Edition, 330 pp.

13. Kohler, John. Our Baptist Heritage. Heritage Baptist Church, Salem, IN, Vol. 2, No. 3, 11/92, 8 pp.

14. McCurry, Robert. The God Man Has Made. Heritage Press, Sharpsburg, GA, 8 pp.
15. Nissenbaum, Stephen. The Battle for Christmas. Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1997, 381 pp.


God bless
sister phyllis

[Bullwinkle]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:6Z3twnLaeEcPwM:http://media.canada.com/cfe7ac49-e090-4323-a853-83766709cd57/loonie_np_02052007.jpg

[revrandy]

We celebrate it every year....

[Bullwinkle]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:6Z3twnLaeEcPwM:http://media.canada.com/cfe7ac49-e090-4323-a853-83766709cd57/loonie_np_02052007.jpg

[AmazingGrace]

Not to be rude and this has nothing to do with the fact that I LOVE Christmas but couldnt all of these been put in 1 thread?

[revrandy]

Not to be rude and this has nothing to do with the fact that I LOVE Christmas but couldnt all of these been put in 1 thread?

Maybe Admin can give her a hand....:bouquet

[AmazingGrace]

Maybe Admin can give her a hand....:bouquet

That would be greatly appreciated huh :)

[Bullwinkle]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:6Z3twnLaeEcPwM:http://media.canada.com/cfe7ac49-e090-4323-a853-83766709cd57/loonie_np_02052007.jpg

[Elizabeth]

I think all these threads can be merged into one-

[stasis]

I agree. Christians should not celebrate the Christ Mass. It is a pagan/catholic/heathen unholy custom. Everything about Christ Mass is a lie. Christ was born of a virgin and came to save sinners, but Christ Mass has nothing to do with him. Christ Mass does not fall into the catagory of 'Christian Liberty'. Nowhere in the bible (old or new testament) does God sanction partaking in heathen religious customs, or attempting to 'adapt' them to the truth (mixing truth with lie, aka 'sons of god marrying daughters of men').

Saturnalia is the ancient name for the Christ Mass. December 25th was the birthday of the false Sun-God (Baal, Hercules, Mithra, etc... ) who's priests were cannibals and ate children's flesh. Claiming it is about Christ is like dressing a pig in a tutu and calling it a dancing-queen... no, it's still a pig, and it still acts like one. Yes... this really pleases God, doesn't it?

Exchanging gifts, or merely buying a gift for someone is not the 'love of Christ'. The Love of Christ (agape) is teaching the truth and bearing your cross. Christ Mass is a time when all the members of your family who walk disorderly and reject Christ all come together and expect you to involve yourself with them. The scripture says to speak the truth to these people and then stay away from them. If you love them don't treat them like they're 'okay', because this will deaden their conscience toward their sins.

[OneAccord]

With respect to those who do not celebrate Christmas. I use to feel the same way. Christmas trees, giving gifts, Christ-MASS, Wreaths, lights,...PAGAN. All pagan.
No, we aren't commanded to observe His Birth. Nor are we to observe His Resurrection. We are, however to observe His Death.
Yes, much of Christmas is founded in paganism and Catholic traditioins. So are a great number of things we do. Church steeples? Pagan origin.

I use to feel the same way. Until I discovered that God judges the INTENTS of our hearts. What is the INTENT of our celebrating Christmas? Or Easter? Or Halloween, even? To honor a false god? To pay homage to Satan? If so, then we are worshipping a false god. We are following Satan. But if it is our intent to express love, joy...to promote family values... to celebrate the joyous occasion of the Lord's Birth... then God judges the INTENT of our heart. I don't worship this "Walmart special" Christmas tree we put up every year. I don't pray to the Nativity scene... nor do I sell my soul to Satan when I give candy at Halloween. I worship, I pray to our Father, which art in Heaven. I give because I am told by the Word to give.

Justifying? No...just making clear the INTENTS of my heart.

[RevDWW]

With respect to those who do not celebrate Christmas. I use to feel the same way. Christmas trees, giving gifts, Christ-MASS, Wreaths, lights,...PAGAN. All pagan.
No, we aren't commanded to observe His Birth. Nor are we to observe His Resurrection. We are, however to observe His Death.
Yes, much of Christmas is founded in paganism and Catholic traditioins. So are a great number of things we do. Church steeples? Pagan origin.

I use to feel the same way. Until I discovered that God judges the INTENTS of our hearts. What is the INTENT of our celebrating Christmas? Or Easter? Or Halloween, even? To honor a false god? To pay homage to Satan? If so, then we are worshipping a false god. We are following Satan. But if it is our intent to express love, joy...to promote family values... to celebrate the joyous occasion of the Lord's Birth... then God judges the INTENT of our heart. I don't worship this "Walmart special" Christmas tree we put up every year. I don't pray to the Nativity scene... nor do I sell my soul to Satan when I give candy at Halloween. I worship, I pray to our Father, which art in Heaven. I give because I am told by the Word to give.

Justifying? No...just making clear the INTENTS of my heart.

Good post!!!!!

[simplyme]

NO ONE but GOD can see a persons heart, only what they DO.

I didn't even have to read all that sisPhyllis wrote to know in my SPIRIT that the way this lost world pretends to celebrate xmas, is just a sham., and I don't care to be associated with it., or anything that can SEEM to be that I am compromising what I purely believe GOD has shown me.

I used to be one that xmas was my fav time of year, BUT..that was BEFORE HE wiped my slate clean, allowed me to start ANEW..and filled me with HIS SPIRIT so that I would then be able to discern, see through HIS EYES..and wow, what a view!

Amazing how things re-focus/CLEAR UP., so very different than what I saw before., I love my GOD-COLORED GLASSES.

TO each his own, I don't say anything to those I encounter still in that mindset, but I have managed quite well to live my life the last almost ten years, without much of the former worldly traditions that I ( and He) find questionable.There IS "LIFE" after xmas! A more abundant LIFE! ;)
JMHO

[Trouvere]

I celebrate in a Christian way.My favorite though is Thanksgiving.I love Thanksgiving.It rocks.Jesus did not call us to be legalists and for that I am
thankful.We could take the New Testament and use it as a legal document
and condemn the whole world.Wait? The world is already condemned.My bible
tells me Christ died for the ungodly.So I suppose we could use the time of year
that most of the world is looking to Jesus even though they don't know Him
in the power of His resurrection and take that time to be a blessing.I make
pralines and bake cookies for friends and take beautiful things to eat and share to my job.This is another time to love on people.It that is a sin then so be it.

[Truthseeker]

6. "The 'Connection' Has Been Broken" -- There are those who clearly recognize the pagan nature of the various Christmas worship forms and practices. Nevertheless, many of these Christians claim that because of the long passage of time from their pagan inception to the present (6,000 years?), the "connection" to paganism has been sufficiently diminished to allow the adoption of these forms and practices into our Christian worship and celebration. While it may be true that most symbols have lost their original demonic meaning and significance in a modern society, it is strangely bizarre and ironic that Christendom seeks to commemorate Christ's birth with the faded symbols of Satan. And even though some of God's people may be naive and ignorant about the source of these things, surely God is not. Can such things please Him? And think about this -- if it were possible to "disconnect" current practices from their pagan/occultic roots, why does Scripture not provide us any guidelines as to:

(a) how much time is necessary for the "neutralization"/disassociation process to occur; and
(b) which of the hundreds of ancient pagan rites would then be acceptable for adaptation into Christian worship (since some are obviously much more pagan/occultic than others)?

[stasis]

Prayer for the Christ Mass:

"Dear, Jesus, I know you told us that the customs of the heathen are vain, and you told us not to learn the way of the heathen.

I know that you told us that philosophy, vain deceit, and traditions of men and rudiments of this world would spoil us and lead us into captivity, which is darkness, if we follow these traditions or rituals.

Jesus. I realize you told us not to add or diminish from your Word. And I know you said your Word was pure, and I understand you said your word is unchangeable, but you won’t mind if we keep a drunken pagan festival in your honor as long as we change the name so it sounds kind of Christian even though it is fire worship. You won’t mind, will you?

Now, Jesus, we’re not going to be able to stop the drunks and the pagan worshippers from continuing to keep their customs. There will be a record number of suicides this time of year. The poor will feel oppressed, but we will take a dinner to them at xmas time and tell them we’ll be back again next year.

And Jesus, we know there will be a record number of wrecks caused by drunk drivers, and the liquor stores will be thrilled to see the season come. Playboy Magazine even has a special Christmas edition, and adultery will run rampant as husbands and wives abandon their vows at drunken parties.

And you will be real happy when you’ll hear my ideas, Jesus

We’ve gone back in history and found fire worshippers of the ancient world who had a festival that went from December 17 thru December 25. That was the birthday of their fire god Mithra or Hercules, and they worship pagan gods.

Now, Jesus, here is my idea. We are going to take this drunken festival of Saturn or Saturnalia, and we're going to put your name on it. We will call it Christmass, but we’ll drop the last S to disguise it and keep it from looking like Roman Catholicism, OK?

They offered their children in the fire and ate them, but I assure you Jesus that most of the world will be celebrating this festival in drunken revelry the same way they did thousands of years before you were born, but I want you to believe me when I tell you, we don’t do it that way.

And when they ask us why we are dragging the church into something so evil, I’ll tell them “Well, we don’t do it that way, we are using paganism to glorify God.”

Jesus, Doesn’t that make you happy. You don’t mind, do you? After all, preachers say it’s OK as long as we use this pagan festival to spread the gospel. If they say it,You won’t mind, will you? I promise Jesus we’re not going to keep the customs of the heathen like they keep them; we’re going to keep them different. You won’t mind if we do this, will you, Jesus?"

[Neck]

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born "this" day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

With the mention of the word "this" it designates the day being mentioned.

Or to take notice "this day".

Since we do not know which day the writer is speaking about specifically.

We take notice that it is "this day". The this referring to the day of his birth.

Now there is nothing in communion associted with his birth.

It does say to take eat this is my body.

So we are to remember his person that was broken for us.

And his life which this is his blood.

So we should remember his birth that brought the body and the blood into being.

Remember "this day" his birthday their was born in the city of David a saviour which is Christ the Lord.

[simplyme]

6. "The 'Connection' Has Been Broken" -- There are those who clearly recognize the pagan nature of the various Christmas worship forms and practices. Nevertheless, many of these Christians claim that because of the long passage of time from their pagan inception to the present (6,000 years?), the "connection" to paganism has been sufficiently diminished to allow the adoption of these forms and practices into our Christian worship and celebration. While it may be true that most symbols have lost their original demonic meaning and significance in a modern society, it is strangely bizarre and ironic that Christendom seeks to commemorate Christ's birth with the faded symbols of Satan. And even though some of God's people may be naive and ignorant about the source of these things, surely God is not. Can such things please Him? And think about this -- if it were possible to "disconnect" current practices from their pagan/occultic roots, why does Scripture not provide us any guidelines as to:

(a) how much time is necessary for the "neutralization"/disassociation process to occur; and (b) which of the hundreds of ancient pagan rites would then be acceptable for adaptation into Christian worship (since some are obviously much more pagan/occultic than others)?

YEAH!

[Truthseeker]

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born "this" day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

With the mention of the word "this" it designates the day being mentioned.

Or to take notice "this day".

Since we do not know which day the writer is speaking about specifically.

We take notice that it is "this day". The this referring to the day of his birth.

Now there is nothing in communion associted with his birth.

It does say to take eat this is my body.

So we are to remember his person that was broken for us.

And his life which this is his blood.

So we should remember his birth that brought the body and the blood into being.

Remember "this day" his birthday their was born in the city of David a saviour which is Christ the Lord.


but why use past symbols of satan and pagan worship to celebrate his birth??

[simplyme]

Prayer for the Christ Mass:

"Dear, Jesus, I know you told us that the customs of the heathen are vain, and you told us not to learn the way of the heathen.

I know that you told us that philosophy, vain deceit, and traditions of men and rudiments of this world would spoil us and lead us into captivity, which is darkness, if we follow these traditions or rituals.

Jesus. I realize you told us not to add or diminish from your Word. And I know you said your Word was pure, and I understand you said your word is unchangeable, but you won’t mind if we keep a drunken pagan festival in your honor as long as we change the name so it sounds kind of Christian even though it is fire worship. You won’t mind, will you?

Now, Jesus, we’re not going to be able to stop the drunks and the pagan worshippers from continuing to keep their customs. There will be a record number of suicides this time of year. The poor will feel oppressed, but we will take a dinner to them at xmas time and tell them we’ll be back again next year.

And Jesus, we know there will be a record number of wrecks caused by drunk drivers, and the liquor stores will be thrilled to see the season come. Playboy Magazine even has a special Christmas edition, and adultery will run rampant as husbands and wives abandon their vows at drunken parties.

And you will be real happy when you’ll hear my ideas, Jesus

We’ve gone back in history and found fire worshippers of the ancient world who had a festival that went from December 17 thru December 25. That was the birthday of their fire god Mithra or Hercules, and they worship pagan gods.

Now, Jesus, here is my idea. We are going to take this drunken festival of Saturn or Saturnalia, and we're going to put your name on it. We will call it Christmass, but we’ll drop the last S to disguise it and keep it from looking like Roman Catholicism, OK?

They offered their children in the fire and ate them, but I assure you Jesus that most of the world will be celebrating this festival in drunken revelry the same way they did thousands of years before you were born, but I want you to believe me when I tell you, we don’t do it that way.

And when they ask us why we are dragging the church into something so evil, I’ll tell them “Well, we don’t do it that way, we are using paganism to glorify God.”

Jesus, Doesn’t that make you happy. You don’t mind, do you? After all, preachers say it’s OK as long as we use this pagan festival to spread the gospel. If they say it,You won’t mind, will you? I promise Jesus we’re not going to keep the customs of the heathen like they keep them; we’re going to keep them different. You won’t mind if we do this, will you, Jesus?"

It would be sooo funny were it not so serious., this is an AWESOME POST!
I was just thinkin on this a while ago as ..and I thought to myself:
How would I like it if everyone gave presents to everyone else but ME on my birthday..if they used MY birthday just to get a paid day off of work, to go out partying and carousing..(not once seriously considering that this MIGHT offend me)..what if people died from alcohol related accidents I would feel so really bad that I even HAD a birthday"...if this is what it caused.

NOPE, not a good idea., especially when I never even told anyone that they HAD to do this.

[Michael Phelps]

There's just too much in this thread to respond to, so I won't, lol.

YES, we celebrate Christmas!
YES, we exchange gifts!
YES, we have a Christmas tree!
YES, it's a great time for our family to get together!
YES, we pray and thank God for our family, for the awesome things God has done for us, and we celebrate Jesus together.

You guys go ahead and post your thin thread of misinterpreted scripture, just to prove that you're more "holy" because you're against more stuff, but as for me and my house, we celebrate Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and by the way, I will comment on one statement..........."THE MERE POPULARITY OF CHRISTMAS SHOULD BE A GOOD REASON NOT TO CELEBRATE IT.......ANYONE CAN CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS, THE PAGAN, THE SINNER, ETC.....

Well, everyone can get married too, should we stay single? Everyone can eat too, should we starve? Everyone can drive a car too, should we walk?

Man, oh man, just not enough time in the day for me to dissect this thread.....

[Truthseeker]

There's just too much in this thread to respond to, so I won't, lol.

YES, we celebrate Christmas!
YES, we exchange gifts!
YES, we have a Christmas tree!
YES, it's a great time for our family to get together!
YES, we pray and thank God for our family, for the awesome things God has done for us, and we celebrate Jesus together.

You guys go ahead and post your thin thread of misinterpreted scripture, just to prove that you're more "holy" because you're against more stuff, but as for me and my house, we celebrate Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and by the way, I will comment on one statement..........."THE MERE POPULARITY OF CHRISTMAS SHOULD BE A GOOD REASON NOT TO CELEBRATE IT.......ANYONE CAN CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS, THE PAGAN, THE SINNER, ETC.....

Well, everyone can get married too, should we stay single? Everyone can eat too, should we starve? Everyone can drive a car too, should we walk?

Man, oh man, just not enough time in the day for me to dissect this thread.....

it's still comes from paganism! :donuts

[Michael Phelps]

it's still comes from paganism! :donuts

Do you celebrate your birthday? If so, where does that practice come from?

Did you have a traditional wedding ceremony? If so, are you sure it doesn't have some pagan influence?

Do you do anything at all that stems from paganism?

To say that we shouldn't celebrate the birth of Christ just because pagans celebrate it too is akin to saying that we shouldn't speak in tongues, because pagans speak in tongues too. If you don't believe me, just watch the National Geographic channel when they're showing the rites of passage into manhood in some of the African tribes.

Don't dance in church, because pagans dance in the ballrooms.

Don't shout with the voice of triumph, because pagans shout at ball games.

Don't fly your American flag in support of our troops, because pagans fly an American flag.

Come on, get real.

[Neck]

but why use past symbols of satan and pagan worship to celebrate his birth??

Almost everything you do is pagon. They used singing as way of bring forth spirits.

Saul called for David to play his harp to calm his spirit.

It's like not buying products because you hear they support something you are against.

Everything you buy supports one of those organizations somewhere down the stream.

Maybe we should do like some churches and get that pagon music out of our churches.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I don't have a Christmas tree due to personal convictions ,but I do exchange gifts,I would suggest a person study the origins of things and then let the Holy Ghost be their guide.
I'm not out to throw my brothers and sisters over fiery pits.
But I enjoy the food and family time during the Holiday season and I enjoy the music as well.

[Neck]

Do you celebrate your birthday? If so, where does that practice come from?

Did you have a traditional wedding ceremony? If so, are you sure it doesn't have some pagan influence?

Do you do anything at all that stems from paganism?

To say that we shouldn't celebrate the birth of Christ just because pagans celebrate it too is akin to saying that we shouldn't speak in tongues, because pagans speak in tongues too. If you don't believe me, just watch the National Geographic channel when they're showing the rites of passage into manhood in some of the African tribes.

Don't dance in church, because pagans dance in the ballrooms.

Don't shout with the voice of triumph, because pagans shout at ball games.

Don't fly your American flag in support of our troops, because pagans fly an American flag.

Come on, get real.

Unless you are Jehova Witness.

[Michael Phelps]

Almost everything you do is pagon. They used singing as way of bring forth spirits.

Saul called for David to play his harp to calm his spirit.

It's like not buying products because you hear they support something you are against.

Everything you buy supports one of those organizations somewhere down the stream.

Maybe we should do like some churches and get that pagon music out of our churches.

BINGO! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!

I'm not saying this is the case with anyone on this forum, but unfortunately, many think that their holiness is defined by how much they're against.

And, if you can't find enough to be against to make yourself look more pure, make something up. Stretch the scripture. Misinterpret it.

Remind you of anyone in Jesus' day?

[Scott Hutchinson]

I have personal convictions but I follow them because of my realtionship with Christ ,I'm not out to out Holy my brothers or sisters or to degrade them.
We all pale when we compare ourselves to Jesus Christ.

[Michael Phelps]

I have personal convictions but I follow them because of my realtionship with Christ ,I'm not out to out Holy my brothers or sisters or to degrade them.
We all pale when we compare ourselves to Jesus Christ.

I respect this attitude, Bro. Scott..........this is how it should be.

I'm not saying that anyone on here exhibits anything differently, I don't know most of the folks here. But, I've dealt with some in real life who aren't as gracious, lol.

[Scott Hutchinson]

As far as a pharisee spirit this ain't me I am what I am by the grace of God.
The Holiness I claim is by the grace of God and a imputation of righteousness.
BTW Pastor Moslby says hello Bro.Phelps.

[Trouvere]

As far as a pharisee spirit this ain't me I am what I am by the grace of God.
The Holiness I claim is by the grace of God and a imputation of righteousness.
BTW Pastor Moslby says hello Bro.Phelps.

Great then you are invited to our church's Christmas program.My daughter has a solo.Invite your mom.

[Michael Phelps]

As far as a pharisee spirit this ain't me I am what I am by the grace of God.
The Holiness I claim is by the grace of God and a imputation of righteousness.
BTW Pastor Moslby says hello Bro.Phelps.

Well, tell the good Dr. I said hello in return!

How are things in Mississippi?

[AmazingGrace]

Has this Phylis person been back or is she a hit n runner????

[Michael Phelps]

Has this Phylis person been back or is she a hit n runner????

This was a blatant drive-by GRINCH attack!

Thank goodness, we all survived........with the help of some mistletoe and eggnog.:bliss

[Scott Hutchinson]

Well, tell the good Dr. I said hello in return!

How are things in Mississippi?

The good doctor is doing better after his stroke.
He preached for us at our homecoming at our church in Jackson,AL.
Our pastor is his brother in law.

[AmazingGrace]

This was a blatant drive-by GRINCH attack!

Thank goodness, we all survived........with the help of some mistletoe and eggnog.:bliss

Whew!!! You know I am NOT allowed to speak of eggnog on here tho right?! I will get in trouble again.... LOL


I do enjoy it tho and might just have to go have me a glass of it... The NOT spiked kind tho!!

[Michael Phelps]

The good doctor is doing better after his stroke.
He preached for us at our homecoming at our church in Jackson,AL.
Our pastor is his brother in law.

Oh wow, I didn't even know he had a stroke! My in-laws didn't mention it.....glad he's doing better.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Great then you are invited to our church's Christmas program.My daughter has a solo.Invite your mom.

Next come I come your way we want to meet you.
It was my pleasure to meet your husband ,I hated to turn him down on lunch ,but I promised Mom we would eat with her.
But next time we come down we hope to meet you.:yourock

[Scott Hutchinson]

Oh wow, I didn't even know he had a stroke! My in-laws didn't mention it.....glad he's doing better.

The good doctor is very fond of you.

[Trouvere]

Next come I come your way we want to meet you.
It was my pleasure to meet your husband ,I hated to turn him down on lunch ,but I promised Mom we would eat with her.
But next time we come down we hope to meet you.:yourock

Amen thanks Brother.I am hoping as well.It was my scheduled Sunday
to work.I love the Sunday School class.Did you get coffee and donuts?
You have to love our pastor.He is the best.I am trying to move into a
nicer house so maybe I can fix our lunch and have you guys over.My girls
would love it.

[Trouvere]

Whew!!! You know I am NOT allowed to speak of eggnog on here tho right?! I will get in trouble again.... LOL


I do enjoy it tho and might just have to go have me a glass of it... The NOT spiked kind tho!!

Does Egg Nog Latte qualify????? :donuts

[Scott Hutchinson]

Amen thanks Brother.I am hoping as well.It was my scheduled Sunday
to work.I love the Sunday School class.Did you get coffee and donuts?
You have to love our pastor.He is the best.I am trying to move into a
nicer house so maybe I can fix our lunch and have you guys over.My girls
would love it.

I think my daughter Lindsay talks to one of your daughters on EC.

[AmazingGrace]

Does Egg Nog Latte qualify????? :donuts

They are nasty but yea that will werk!!!!:thebunny

[MissBrattified]

but why use past symbols of satan and pagan worship to celebrate his birth??

Would you set aside a day to celebrate His birth, if those symbols and pagan worship weren't a part?

[MissBrattified]

I am ALREADY shopping for Christmas!!!!! Hallelujah! :)

[Scott Hutchinson]

I must say I have gotten alot of Bibles as Christmas presents over the yrs.

[MissBrattified]

it's still comes from paganism! :donuts

And you're still as annoying as ever. So we're even. :coffee2 :D

[Truthseeker]

And you're still as annoying as ever. So we're even. :coffee2 :D

still pagan! :bliss

[Truthseeker]

Almost everything you do is pagon. They used singing as way of bring forth spirits.

Saul called for David to play his harp to calm his spirit.

It's like not buying products because you hear they support something you are against.

Everything you buy supports one of those organizations somewhere down the stream.

Maybe we should do like some churches and get that pagon music out of our churches.


So one pagan act justify another???

Not a good arguement to use to justify pagan customs to offer God in celebrating Jesus birth.

[RevDWW]

:dunno Don't be a Holiday hater!!!! Ain't nothing wrong with being festive about the birth of Jesus or celebrating His resurrection. :hanky

Colossians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday(festival), or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

[Scott Hutchinson]

Here for anybody that wants to do some independent study.
http://biblebelievers.com/babylon/00index.htm
http://exorthodoxforchrist.com/two_babylons.htm

[Praxeas]

Should a Christian Celebrate Christmas?

There is no Biblical warrant, precedent, nor precept for remembrance of the day of Christ's birth as a day of special religious celebration. This is not to say that we shouldn't remember Christ's birth and its significance, but for religious commemorations or celebrations, we must have Biblical command or precedent! The fact of the matter is this -- the early church did not celebrate Christ's birth, but such celebration only came into the church with the "Christianization" of pagan rites as Catholicism was made the state religion by Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Since the Word of God does not support the tradition of Christmas, a Christian's conscience ought not and must not be bound.

The following outline describes the origin of Christmas (with its associated pagan customs, symbols, and terminology), details the Scriptural support against celebrating Christmas, attempts to show that celebrating Christmas violates the spirit of every one of the ten commandments, attempts to demonstrate that celebrating Christmas does not fall in the realm of Christian liberty, and attempts to debunk eight of the major rationalizations Christians put forth for celebrating Christmas.

I. The Origin of Christmas

A. A Long Evolution -- Christmas customs are an evolution from times long before the Christian period -- a descent from seasonal, pagan, religious, and national practices, hedged about with legend and tradition. Their seasonal connections with the pagan feasts of the winter solstice relate them to ancient times, when many of the earth's inhabitant's were sun worshipers. As the superstitious pagans observed the sun gradually moving south in the heavens and the days growing shorter, they believed the sun was departing never to return. To encourage the sun's return north (i.e., to give the winter sun god strength and to bring him back to life again), the sun gods were worshipped with elaborate rituals and ceremonies, including the building of great bonfires, decorating with great evergreen plants such as holly, ivy, and mistletoe, and making representations of summer birds as house decorations. The winter solstice, then, was the shortest day of the year, when the sun seemingly stood still in the southern sky. Observing the slowdown in the sun's southward movement, and its stop, the heathen believed that their petitions to it had been successful. A time of unrestrained rejoicing broke out, with revelry, drinking, and gluttonous feasts. Then, when the pagans observed the sun moving again northward, and a week later were able to determine that the days were growing longer, a new year was proclaimed.

B. Not Among the Earliest Christian Festivals -- Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. It was not celebrated, commemorated, or observed, neither by the apostles nor in the apostolic church -- not for at least the first 300 years of church history! History reveals that about 440 A.D., the Church at Jerusalem commenced the celebration of Christmas, following the lead of Roman Catholicism (see I.C.). It was sufficient for the early Christians that Jesus, their Lord and Savior, had been born. They praised God that Jesus Christ had, indeed, come in the flesh. The day and the time of His birth had no relevance to them, because Jesus was no longer physically on earth. He had returned to heaven. And it was the risen, exalted Christ to whom they looked, and that by faith -- not a babe laid in a manger. Jesus Christ is no longer a baby; no longer the "Christ-child," but the exalted Lord of all. And He does NOT somehow return to earth as a baby every year at Christmas-time -- though this is the impression given even in certain hymns sung in Protestant services. (See sub-report.)

C. The Role of Religion in Ancient Rome -- Seemingly forgotten is the essential role religion played in the world of ancient Rome. But the Emperor Constantine understood. By giving official status to Christianity, he brought internal peace to the Empire. A brilliant military commander, he also had the genius to recognize that after declaring Christianity the "state" religion (Constantine forced all the pagans of his empire to be baptized into the Roman Church), there was need for true union between paganism and Christianity. The corrupt Roman Church was full of pagans now masquerading as Christians, all of which had to be pacified. What better way than to "Christianize" their pagan idolatries. Thus, the Babylonian mystery religions were introduced by Constantine beginning in 313 A.D. (and established a foothold with the holding of the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.). The Constantine-led Roman Church was more than willing to adapt and adopt pagan practices in order to make Christianity palatable to the heathen. Constantine used religion as a political tool, totally devoid of any true spirituality:

Pagan rituals and idols took on Christian names (e.g., Jesus Christ was presented as the Sun of Righteousness [Malachi 4:2] replacing the sun god, Sol Invictus ).

Pagan holidays were reclassified as Christian holidays (holy-days).
December 25th was the "Victory of the Sun-God" Festival in the pagan Babylonian world. In the ancient Roman Empire, the celebration can be traced back to the Roman festival Saturnalia, which honored Saturn, the harvest god, and Mithras, the god of light; both were celebrated during or shortly after the winter solstice (between the 17th and 23rd of December). To all ancient pagan civilizations, December 25th was the birthday of the gods -- the time of year when the days began to lengthen and man was blessed with a "regeneration of nature." Moreover, all of December 25th's Babylonian and Roman festivals were characterized by 5-7 day celebration periods of unrestrained or orgiastic revelry and licentiousness.

December 25th was particularly important in the cult of Mithras, a popular deity in the Old Roman Empire. Robert Myers (a proponent for celebrating Christmas) in his book Celebrations, says:

"Prior to the celebration of Christmas, December 25th in the Roman world was the Natalis Solis Invicti, the Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun. This feast, which took place just after the winter solstice of the Julian calendar, was in honor of the Sun God, Mithras, originally a Persian deity whose cult penetrated the Roman world in the first century B.C. ... Besides the Mithraic influence, other pagan forces were at work. From the seventeenth of December until the twenty-third, Romans celebrated the ancient feast of the Saturnalia. ... It was commemorative of the Golden Age of Saturn, the god of sowing and husbandry."

In order to make Christianity palatable to the heathen, the Roman Church simply took Saturnalia, adopted it into Christianity, and then eventually many of the associated pagan symbols, forms, customs, and traditions were reinterpreted (i.e., "Christianized") in ways "acceptable" to Christian faith and practice. (In fact, in 375 A.D., the Church of Rome under Pope Julius I merely announced that the birth date of Christ had been "discovered" to be December 25th, and was accepted as such by the "faithful." The festival of Saturnalia and the birthday of Mithras could now be celebrated as the birthday of Christ!) The pagans flocked into the Catholic places of worship, because they were still able to worship their old gods, but merely under different names. It mattered not to them whether they worshiped the Egyptian goddess mother and her child under the old names (Isis and Horus), or under the names of the "Virgin Mary" and the "Christ-child." Either way, it was the same old idol-religion (cf. 1 Thes. 1:8-10; 5:22 -- Paul says to turn from idols, not rename them and Christianize them). Roman Catholicism's Christmas Day is nothing but "baptized" paganism, having come along much too late to be part of "the faith once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3).

D. "Christianization" of Pagan Customs, Symbols, and Terminology -- Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagan Rome could "convert" without giving up its old beliefs and rituals. The actual effect was to paganize official Christianity. "'A compound religion had been manufactured, of which ... Christianity furnished the nomenclature, and Paganism the doctrines and rights.' The idolatry of the Roman world, though deposed from its ancient pre-eminence, had by no means been demolished. Instead of this, its pagan nakedness had been covered with the garb of a deformed Christianity" (W.E. Vine). Pagan customs involving vestments, candles, incense, images, and processions were all incorporated into church worship and continue today.


Continuied inpart 2
sister phyllis
Sis do you have permission to quote this article in full and if so, you need to provide the link to the original online article. Please do so

[drummerboy_dave]

:blah


:bubble

[Truthseeker]

:dunno Don't be a Holiday hater!!!! Ain't nothing wrong with being festive about the birth of Jesus or celebrating His resurrection. :hanky

But why use pagan customs to do it?

BTW the scripture you gave doesn't apply to the subject. It's refering to the jewish holydays.

[crakjak]

:nahnahShould a Christian Celebrate Christmas?

There is no Biblical warrant, precedent, nor precept for remembrance of the day of Christ's birth as a day of special religious celebration. This is not to say that we shouldn't remember Christ's birth and its significance, but for religious commemorations or celebrations, we must have Biblical command or precedent! The fact of the matter is this -- the early church did not celebrate Christ's birth, but such celebration only came into the church with the "Christianization" of pagan rites as Catholicism was made the state religion by Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Since the Word of God does not support the tradition of Christmas, a Christian's conscience ought not and must not be bound.

The following outline describes the origin of Christmas (with its associated pagan customs, symbols, and terminology), details the Scriptural support against celebrating Christmas, attempts to show that celebrating Christmas violates the spirit of every one of the ten commandments, attempts to demonstrate that celebrating Christmas does not fall in the realm of Christian liberty, and attempts to debunk eight of the major rationalizations Christians put forth for celebrating Christmas.

I. The Origin of Christmas

A. A Long Evolution -- Christmas customs are an evolution from times long before the Christian period -- a descent from seasonal, pagan, religious, and national practices, hedged about with legend and tradition. Their seasonal connections with the pagan feasts of the winter solstice relate them to ancient times, when many of the earth's inhabitant's were sun worshipers. As the superstitious pagans observed the sun gradually moving south in the heavens and the days growing shorter, they believed the sun was departing never to return. To encourage the sun's return north (i.e., to give the winter sun god strength and to bring him back to life again), the sun gods were worshipped with elaborate rituals and ceremonies, including the building of great bonfires, decorating with great evergreen plants such as holly, ivy, and mistletoe, and making representations of summer birds as house decorations. The winter solstice, then, was the shortest day of the year, when the sun seemingly stood still in the southern sky. Observing the slowdown in the sun's southward movement, and its stop, the heathen believed that their petitions to it had been successful. A time of unrestrained rejoicing broke out, with revelry, drinking, and gluttonous feasts. Then, when the pagans observed the sun moving again northward, and a week later were able to determine that the days were growing longer, a new year was proclaimed.

B. Not Among the Earliest Christian Festivals -- Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. It was not celebrated, commemorated, or observed, neither by the apostles nor in the apostolic church -- not for at least the first 300 years of church history! History reveals that about 440 A.D., the Church at Jerusalem commenced the celebration of Christmas, following the lead of Roman Catholicism (see I.C.). It was sufficient for the early Christians that Jesus, their Lord and Savior, had been born. They praised God that Jesus Christ had, indeed, come in the flesh. The day and the time of His birth had no relevance to them, because Jesus was no longer physically on earth. He had returned to heaven. And it was the risen, exalted Christ to whom they looked, and that by faith -- not a babe laid in a manger. Jesus Christ is no longer a baby; no longer the "Christ-child," but the exalted Lord of all. And He does NOT somehow return to earth as a baby every year at Christmas-time -- though this is the impression given even in certain hymns sung in Protestant services. (See sub-report.)

C. The Role of Religion in Ancient Rome -- Seemingly forgotten is the essential role religion played in the world of ancient Rome. But the Emperor Constantine understood. By giving official status to Christianity, he brought internal peace to the Empire. A brilliant military commander, he also had the genius to recognize that after declaring Christianity the "state" religion (Constantine forced all the pagans of his empire to be baptized into the Roman Church), there was need for true union between paganism and Christianity. The corrupt Roman Church was full of pagans now masquerading as Christians, all of which had to be pacified. What better way than to "Christianize" their pagan idolatries. Thus, the Babylonian mystery religions were introduced by Constantine beginning in 313 A.D. (and established a foothold with the holding of the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.). The Constantine-led Roman Church was more than willing to adapt and adopt pagan practices in order to make Christianity palatable to the heathen. Constantine used religion as a political tool, totally devoid of any true spirituality:

Pagan rituals and idols took on Christian names (e.g., Jesus Christ was presented as the Sun of Righteousness [Malachi 4:2] replacing the sun god, Sol Invictus ).

Pagan holidays were reclassified as Christian holidays (holy-days).
December 25th was the "Victory of the Sun-God" Festival in the pagan Babylonian world. In the ancient Roman Empire, the celebration can be traced back to the Roman festival Saturnalia, which honored Saturn, the harvest god, and Mithras, the god of light; both were celebrated during or shortly after the winter solstice (between the 17th and 23rd of December). To all ancient pagan civilizations, December 25th was the birthday of the gods -- the time of year when the days began to lengthen and man was blessed with a "regeneration of nature." Moreover, all of December 25th's Babylonian and Roman festivals were characterized by 5-7 day celebration periods of unrestrained or orgiastic revelry and licentiousness.

December 25th was particularly important in the cult of Mithras, a popular deity in the Old Roman Empire. Robert Myers (a proponent for celebrating Christmas) in his book Celebrations, says:

"Prior to the celebration of Christmas, December 25th in the Roman world was the Natalis Solis Invicti, the Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun. This feast, which took place just after the winter solstice of the Julian calendar, was in honor of the Sun God, Mithras, originally a Persian deity whose cult penetrated the Roman world in the first century B.C. ... Besides the Mithraic influence, other pagan forces were at work. From the seventeenth of December until the twenty-third, Romans celebrated the ancient feast of the Saturnalia. ... It was commemorative of the Golden Age of Saturn, the god of sowing and husbandry."

In order to make Christianity palatable to the heathen, the Roman Church simply took Saturnalia, adopted it into Christianity, and then eventually many of the associated pagan symbols, forms, customs, and traditions were reinterpreted (i.e., "Christianized") in ways "acceptable" to Christian faith and practice. (In fact, in 375 A.D., the Church of Rome under Pope Julius I merely announced that the birth date of Christ had been "discovered" to be December 25th, and was accepted as such by the "faithful." The festival of Saturnalia and the birthday of Mithras could now be celebrated as the birthday of Christ!) The pagans flocked into the Catholic places of worship, because they were still able to worship their old gods, but merely under different names. It mattered not to them whether they worshiped the Egyptian goddess mother and her child under the old names (Isis and Horus), or under the names of the "Virgin Mary" and the "Christ-child." Either way, it was the same old idol-religion (cf. 1 Thes. 1:8-10; 5:22 -- Paul says to turn from idols, not rename them and Christianize them). Roman Catholicism's Christmas Day is nothing but "baptized" paganism, having come along much too late to be part of "the faith once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3).

D. "Christianization" of Pagan Customs, Symbols, and Terminology -- Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagan Rome could "convert" without giving up its old beliefs and rituals. The actual effect was to paganize official Christianity. "'A compound religion had been manufactured, of which ... Christianity furnished the nomenclature, and Paganism the doctrines and rights.' The idolatry of the Roman world, though deposed from its ancient pre-eminence, had by no means been demolished. Instead of this, its pagan nakedness had been covered with the garb of a deformed Christianity" (W.E. Vine). Pagan customs involving vestments, candles, incense, images, and processions were all incorporated into church worship and continue today.


Continuied inpart 2
sister phyllis

[Neck]

So one pagan act justify another???

Not a good arguement to use to justify pagan customs to offer God in celebrating Jesus birth.

What is the problem with his birth. How do you celebrate Easter... Or should I call it by the pagon name "Easter"?

[Truthseeker]

What is the problem with his birth. How do you celebrate Easter... Or should I call it by the pagon name "Easter"?

No one is speaking against his birth. The qustion why use past pagan customs to celebrate his birth??

No I don't do easter.

[Michael Phelps]

The good doctor is very fond of you.

The feelings are very mutual, I assure you. He's a true gentleman and has been a friend to me for many, many years.

[stasis]

Prayer for the Christ Mass:

"Dear, Jesus, I know you told us that the customs of the heathen are vain, and you told us not to learn the way of the heathen.

I know that you told us that philosophy, vain deceit, and traditions of men and rudiments of this world would spoil us and lead us into captivity, which is darkness, if we follow these traditions or rituals.

Jesus. I realize you told us not to add or diminish from your Word. And I know you said your Word was pure, and I understand you said your word is unchangeable, but you won’t mind if we keep a drunken pagan festival in your honor as long as we change the name so it sounds kind of Christian even though it is fire worship. You won’t mind, will you?

Now, Jesus, we’re not going to be able to stop the drunks and the pagan worshippers from continuing to keep their customs. There will be a record number of suicides this time of year. The poor will feel oppressed, but we will take a dinner to them at xmas time and tell them we’ll be back again next year.

And Jesus, we know there will be a record number of wrecks caused by drunk drivers, and the liquor stores will be thrilled to see the season come. Playboy Magazine even has a special Christmas edition, and adultery will run rampant as husbands and wives abandon their vows at drunken parties.

And you will be real happy when you’ll hear my ideas, Jesus

We’ve gone back in history and found fire worshippers of the ancient world who had a festival that went from December 17 thru December 25. That was the birthday of their fire god Mithra or Hercules, and they worship pagan gods.

Now, Jesus, here is my idea. We are going to take this drunken festival of Saturn or Saturnalia, and we're going to put your name on it. We will call it Christmass, but we’ll drop the last S to disguise it and keep it from looking like Roman Catholicism, OK?

They offered their children in the fire and ate them, and I assure you Jesus that most of the world will be celebrating this festival in drunken revelry the same way they did thousands of years before you were born, but I want you to believe me when I tell you, we don’t do it that way.

And when they ask us why we are dragging the church into something so evil, I’ll tell them “Well, we don’t do it that way, we are using paganism to glorify God.”

Jesus, Doesn’t that make you happy. You don’t mind, do you? After all, preachers say it’s OK as long as we use this pagan festival to spread the gospel. If they say it,You won’t mind, will you? I promise Jesus we’re not going to keep the customs of the heathen like they keep them; we’re going to keep them different. You won’t mind if we do this, will you, Jesus?"

[Michael Phelps]

Prayer for the Christ Mass:

"Dear, Jesus, I know you told us that the customs of the heathen are vain, and you told us not to learn the way of the heathen.

I know that you told us that philosophy, vain deceit, and traditions of men and rudiments of this world would spoil us and lead us into captivity, which is darkness, if we follow these traditions or rituals.

Jesus. I realize you told us not to add or diminish from your Word. And I know you said your Word was pure, and I understand you said your word is unchangeable, but you won’t mind if we keep a drunken pagan festival in your honor as long as we change the name so it sounds kind of Christian even though it is fire worship. You won’t mind, will you?

Now, Jesus, we’re not going to be able to stop the drunks and the pagan worshippers from continuing to keep their customs. There will be a record number of suicides this time of year. The poor will feel oppressed, but we will take a dinner to them at xmas time and tell them we’ll be back again next year.

And Jesus, we know there will be a record number of wrecks caused by drunk drivers, and the liquor stores will be thrilled to see the season come. Playboy Magazine even has a special Christmas edition, and adultery will run rampant as husbands and wives abandon their vows at drunken parties.

And you will be real happy when you’ll hear my ideas, Jesus

We’ve gone back in history and found fire worshippers of the ancient world who had a festival that went from December 17 thru December 25. That was the birthday of their fire god Mithra or Hercules, and they worship pagan gods.

Now, Jesus, here is my idea. We are going to take this drunken festival of Saturn or Saturnalia, and we're going to put your name on it. We will call it Christmass, but we’ll drop the last S to disguise it and keep it from looking like Roman Catholicism, OK?

They offered their children in the fire and ate them, and I assure you Jesus that most of the world will be celebrating this festival in drunken revelry the same way they did thousands of years before you were born, but I want you to believe me when I tell you, we don’t do it that way.

And when they ask us why we are dragging the church into something so evil, I’ll tell them “Well, we don’t do it that way, we are using paganism to glorify God.”

Jesus, Doesn’t that make you happy. You don’t mind, do you? After all, preachers say it’s OK as long as we use this pagan festival to spread the gospel. If they say it,You won’t mind, will you? I promise Jesus we’re not going to keep the customs of the heathen like they keep them; we’re going to keep them different. You won’t mind if we do this, will you, Jesus?"

Yawn.

Come up with something original.

[OneAccord]

While I don't subscribe to the "Christmas is paganism" position, I think we should show a measure of respect for those who maintain this position. Nothing is accomplished by making fun of those brothers or sisters who hold to their convictions. There are a number of convictions and beliefs posted on this forum I do not agree with. And, there are beliefs and convictions that I hold that others may not support. To discuss them is one thing, but, as Christians, we should keep things civil. I believe that is a "posting requirement" as well.

[IAintMovin]

If yall think I am gonna read all those first post............you got another thing coming........but in answer to the question............if anybody should celebrate Christmas, Children of God should..................duhhhhhhhh.............

[The Closer]

No one is speaking against his birth. The qustion why use past pagan customs to celebrate his birth??

No I don't do easter.not just this one but every post i read from you makes me want to ask the question

are you ever happy

you seem like such a sad person

i do not in any way mean this as an attack i am being for real

i will pray for you today

[MrsMcD]

If yall think I am gonna read all those first post............you got another thing coming........but in answer to the question............if anybody should celebrate Christmas, Children of God should..................duhhhhhhhh.............

:thumbsup

[crakjak]

:nahnah

I apologize that was unkind, please forgive me.

[stasis]

Hey Truthseeker.

I'm pretty sure that everyone here has heard Christ Mass is the pagan Babylonian Saturnalia, the birthday of Baal, Hercules and Mithra. I'm pretty sure everyone knows the priests of the sun god sacrificed children and ate them during Saturnalia in many parts of the world. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that God commands his children to not involve themselves in the ways of the heathen, and that it doesn't please God to mix truth with a lie, or especially to call such a cocktail 'holy'. I'm also pretty sure everyone has read Jeremiah 10:2-5, which clearly illustrates the ancient pagan 'Christ Mass' tree that Americans erect in their homes, which is clearly called a heathen vanity. I'm also pretty sure they know that God ANNIHILATED Israel and brought them captive into Babylon for involving themselves in the pagan Baal and Grove customs. They probably have also read in Revelation where Christ tells his children 'Come out of her, my people', regarding Babylon. They know Christ Mass is a custom 'highly esteemed among men' and they've read Luke 16:15 , 'that which is highly esteemed among men, is an abomination in the sight of God'.

Anyone who still wants to celebrate the Christ Mass after hearing these things cannot be convinced otherwise on grounds of biblical morality. They will frowardly twist as many scriptures as they can to keep their Grove custom, even to the point of believing that anything is okay as long as it makes them happy and doesn't make them feel guilty ("the 'Holy Ghost' hasn't convicted me yet!"... see, it's all about 'feeling'), or as long as they slap a Christ label on it.

... Almost seems pointless to continue giving out facts at this point. You know?

It makes me a little happy to at least I know there are a few others in this forum who have eyes to see this stuff..

If people want to drink of the filthy cocktail cup of the Whore of Babylon and involve themselves in the spiritual fornication of Roman Catholic corruptions, there's not much we can do to change their minds. Especially when they consider it 'innocent' and 'for the kids' (teaching the kids spiritual fornication, and to pursue the lust of the eyes from the tree, the things of this world).

[drummerboy_dave]

Prayer for the Christ Mass.....Please stop using the name of our Lord in vain.

[stasis]

Please stop using the name of our Lord in vain.

You don't even know what 'using the name of the Lord in vain' means.

[simplyme]

While I don't subscribe to the "Christmas is paganism" position, I think we should show a measure of respect for those who maintain this position. Nothing is accomplished by making fun of those brothers or sisters who hold to their convictions. There are a number of convictions and beliefs posted on this forum I do not agree with. And, there are beliefs and convictions that I hold that others may not support. To discuss them is one thing, but, as Christians, we should keep things civil. I believe that is a "posting requirement" as well.

..I was thinkin about this earlier, too., I believe that those who ABSTAIN from celebrating as "the world" does should not be ridiculed for that either., fair is fair. We are to seek to be "at peac with all men/women"..I TRY.

[drummerboy_dave]

You don't even know what 'using the name of the Lord in vain' means.Ha! That's hilarious. :bubble

[stasis]

Ha! That's hilarious. :bubble

... No. I mean, you really don't. Your statement clearly shows that.

[Michael Phelps]

..I was thinkin about this earlier, too., I believe that those who ABSTAIN from celebrating as "the world" does should not be ridiculed for that either., fair is fair. We are to seek to be "at peac with all men/women"..I TRY.

No one is arguing with the fact that you choose not to celebrate Christmas, that is entirely your choice, and you shouldn't be ridiculed.

What we have issue with is your rationale, and your little "prayer". Your little "prayer" is ridiculing every Christian who DOES celebrate Christmas.

[stasis]

No one is arguing with the fact that you choose not to celebrate Christmas, that is entirely your choice, and you shouldn't be ridiculed.

What we have issue with is your rationale, and your little "prayer". Your little "prayer" is ridiculing every Christian who DOES celebrate Christmas.


I'm glad the little 'X-Mass' (Christ doesn't belong, and isn't in, Pagan customs) prayer offends you. Perhaps that means you felt a twinge of conviction.

Oh... and political correctness is Roman Catholicism (just like X-Mass). The Edict of Toleration. Don't expect me to tell you your sin is okay.

[simplyme]

No one is arguing with the fact that you choose not to celebrate Christmas, that is entirely your choice, and you shouldn't be ridiculed.

What we have issue with is your rationale, and your little "prayer". Your little "prayer" is ridiculing every Christian who DOES celebrate Christmas.

That was NOT my prayer..but it did seem to reflect the "rationale" of those who DO choose to celebrate..as the unsaved do., for ME salvation opened MY eyes to things I'd never have dared to even consider..yet I am glad that I did finally "see" so many many things not previously seen in my years living for the oppostie side., things of which I cannot go on actings as IF I did not now know., for me its personal.

[Michael Phelps]

I'm glad the little 'X-Mass' (Christ doesn't belong, and isn't in, Pagan customs) prayer offends you. Perhaps that means you felt a twinge of conviction.

Oh... and political correctness is Roman Catholicism (just like X-Mass). The Edict of Toleration. Don't expect me to tell you your sin is okay.

I apologize for addressing my comments to the wrong person, I was thinking you were the one saying that we shouldn't ridicule others with opposing viewpoints.

I can clearly see that you don't care who you ridicule, so I'm sure the sentiment was wasted on you.

And, your little prayer didn't offend me, it amused me.

[Michael Phelps]

That was NOT my prayer..but it did seem to reflect the "rationale" of those who DO choose to celebrate..as the unsaved do., for ME salvation opened MY eyes to things I'd never have dared to even consider..yet I am glad that I did finally "see" so many many things not previously seen in my years living for the oppostie side., things of which I cannot go on actings as IF I did not now know., for me its personal.

Interesting that you would cry foul when others were ridiculing you, and yet you put Christians who celebrate Christmas in the same camp as the unsaved.

I guess that only works one way, huh?

[drummerboy_dave]

... No. I mean, you really don't. Your statement clearly shows that.Yeah, and your attitude stinketh. I'm out.

[simplyme]

Interesting that you would cry foul when others were ridiculing you, and yet you put Christians who celebrate Christmas in the same camp as the unsaved.

I guess that only works one way, huh?
No need to jump to such a conclusion., if you'll carefully read ALL my words I referred to that salvation had changed my view..
I said what I did, having once been unsaved myself, that they [I didn't] don't always know better UNLESS of course they have read the BIBLE., or attended a bible study on this topic..or ?? I guess anyone with a thirst for TRUTH about holidays could find out for themselves..in any number of ways. Its not just a BIBLE thing..history speaks louder than anything I could say.

[Michael Phelps]

No need to jump to such a conclusion., if you'll carefully read ALL my words I referred to that salvation had changed my view..
I said what I did, having once been unsaved myself, that they [I didn't] don't always know better UNLESS of course they have read the BIBLE., or attended a bible study on this topic..or ?? I guess anyone with a thirst for TRUTH about holidays could find out for themselves..in any number of ways. Its not just a BIBLE thing..history speaks louder than anything I could say.

I'm sorry, but the more you try and explain, the more your elitist attitude shows thru.

For instance, I guess anyone with a thirst for TRUTH about holidays......I guess those of us who still celebrate Christmas dont' have a thirst for truth?

Or, those of us who still choose to celebrate Christmas don't know better, whereas you do........

Sorry, friend........if you would have simply said, "My choice is not to celebrate based on personal conviction", I would have accepted that. Instead, you're putting anyone who DOES still celebrate Christmas in a different, more carnal, less educated class than yourself, and that's ridicule.

[simplyme]

I'm sorry, but the more you try and explain, the more your elitist attitude shows thru.

For instance, I guess anyone with a thirst for TRUTH about holidays......I guess those of us who still celebrate Christmas dont' have a thirst for truth?

Or, those of us who still choose to celebrate Christmas don't know better, whereas you do........

Sorry, friend........if you would have simply said, "My choice is not to celebrate based on personal conviction", I would have accepted that. Instead, you're putting anyone who DOES still celebrate Christmas in a different, more carnal, less educated class than yourself, and that's ridicule.

Sorry you feel that way., its your choice to decipher my words like that..not my desire to offend., but it seems that you do not understand that is how I experienced this whole issue, its WHY I do NOT do the whole xmas thing for many years now, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate family gatherings or love my neighbors either.., I can't help but see it still goin on all around me, if it makes someone happy I can't complain, better happy than not., I say., I am happy please continue bein happy2..never mind me. ;)

[Pastor G]

To post or not to post, that is the question I am mulling over... I'll just say this, to you guys and gals that are so death on Christmas, we just won't have our Christmas celebrations in front of you... But we are going to celebrate the birth of Christ with the rest of America, so close your eyes if you come by... If even the worst of the world pauses one day or season to acknowledge the birth of Christ, I am not going to tell them they are wrong... I am going try to build on it and show them through the Holy Ghost that they can celebrate Jesus all year long...
An argument with some of you religious people isn't going to change a thing for you or me, so do what ever you want and be blessed, we will be too, whether you like it or not...
Michael, you would love how we decorate our church for Christmas...

[RevDWW]

To post or not to post, that is the question I am mulling over... I'll just say this, to you guys and gals that are so death on Christmas, we just won't have our Christmas celebrations in front of you... But we are going to celebrate the birth of Christ with the rest of America, so close your eyes if you come by... If even the worst of the world pauses one day or season to acknowledge the birth of Christ, I am not going to tell them they are wrong... I am going try to build on it and show them through the Holy Ghost that they can celebrate Jesus all year long...
An argument with some of you religious people isn't going to change a thing for you or me, so do what ever you want and be blessed, we will be too, whether you like it or not...
Michael, you would love how we decorate our church for Christmas...

Good post and amen. Philippians 1:15 - 18 (KJV) 15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Seems some want to sing 'O Holy night' and others "O holier I am then thou"..........:ursofunny One celebrates Christ and the other.........well you can probably figure that out.

[Truthseeker]

not just this one but every post i read from you makes me want to ask the question

are you ever happy

you seem like such a sad person

i do not in any way mean this as an attack i am being for real

i will pray for you today


Funny, because soemone doesn't do the holy days of the world they are suppose to be sad?? I'm quite happy without them. True happiness comes from the Spirit not some seasonal tmepo fleshly joy.

[Michael Phelps]

Sorry you feel that way., its your choice to decipher my words like that..not my desire to offend., but it seems that you do not understand that is how I experienced this whole issue, its WHY I do NOT do the whole xmas thing for many years now, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate family gatherings or love my neighbors either.., I can't help but see it still goin on all around me, if it makes someone happy I can't complain, better happy than not., I say., I am happy please continue bein happy2..never mind me. ;)

Actually, this post explains your position better than the previous posts, and I can appreciate your attitude here.

I will continue being happy, and I hope you will too!

[Truthseeker]

Chrits-mass, the day everyone's catholic for a day.

[Truthseeker]

Ok I feel better now. lol

[Michael Phelps]

Ok I feel better now. lol

That's good, you said your piece.

However, I wouldn't go to church on Sunday, when the pagans go.

[Trouvere]

Hey some of us are catholic for two or three months lol.Down here they start during October

[OneAccord]

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell: The third day he rose again from the dead:
He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father
Almighty: From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

I believe in the Holy Ghost:
I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
The forgiveness of sins:
The resurrection of the body:
And the life everlasting. Amen.

When I first came to the Lord, I knew nothing about prayer. Had never prayed a prayer. I found or was given a Catholic Prayer Book and, when I prayed, I would read my prayers out of that book. The prayer may have been addressed to St. Jerome, or St. Christopher, and many ended with words like , "...in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Blessed Trinity". At the time, I diddn't know what Trinity was. Didn't know the difference between Catholic or Baptist. To me, at the time, it didn't make a difference. And, the Apostle's Creed (above) helped me in my early Christian walk. It was the foundation upon which I began to build my faith.

So, I may be catholic. To define the word "catholic" is to believe in a universial church. And I do believe God has a universal church, filled with people from all walks of life and from various cultures and even religious beliefs. But they have ONE THING in common. They are filled with the Holy Ghost. And through and by the Holy Ghost, they are a part of the Body of Christ. They may not believe that same as me, and vice versa. They may "deck the halls with fa-la-la, or they may not. Doesn't matter to me. So, label me catholic...not just on Dec 25, but everyday, because I believe His Church is founded upon His Word. Not my interpretation. Or yours. But on the Word. My interpretation... and yours...ain't worth one red cent.

If one holds to the conviction that celebrating Christmas is wrong...I can respect that. I can even support that. If one chooses to refrain from eating pork..I can respect and support that as well. But these are YOUR convictions, not mine. Hold to them... preach them... believe them. But, above all else, do it with Christian love. Do it to encourage... to bless.

[Truthseeker]

let me add, that like anything else we must have the right spirit about this and other issues as well. My church is full fledge christmassers. I just don't mess with it or partake in any of it. I don't go around condemning others or on a persoanl crusade to change them. I will explain why I don't when asked or the situation requires.


BTW Going to church on sunday is different then actually particpating win customs of worship towards pagan gods.

[Michael Phelps]

let me add, that like anything else we must have the right spirit about this and other issues as well. My church is full fledge christmassers. I just don't mess with it or partake in any of it. I don't go around condemning others or on a persoanl crusade to change them. I will explain why I don't when asked or the situation requires.


BTW Going to church on sunday is different then actually particpating win customs of worship towards pagan gods.

I see. So, if I don't worship my tree, but worship Jesus, is it ok? I mean, if we want to nitpick methods, I can show you pagans who speak in tongues in worship to their gods, receive communion in worship to their gods, dance around and shout, etc.

But, having said that, I'm sure we'll never reach a consensus, but I do appreciate your spirit toward those who do celebrate Christmas.

[simplyme]

Funny, because soemone doesn't do the holy days of the world they are suppose to be sad?? I'm quite happy without them. True happiness comes from the Spirit not some seasonal tmepo fleshly joy.

Oh yes I can agree that we don't need external promptings to tell us when we're supposed to rejoice in that a savior came to save us..true love for JESUS exists 24/7 it lives within, in fact its the only thing that keeps ME ALIVE..the duty to proclaim His gospel is also 24/7..not just during a once a year season that announces "peace and goodwill towards all men., I really don't know, nor ever heard..of anyone that came to JESUS as a result of xmastime.
Doesn't mean it hasn't happened but you'd think that with all the alleged 'witnessing' there'd be millions flocking to be baptized in JESUSname., around this time. I wish that it was so.

[Truthseeker]

Oh yes I can agree that we don't need external promptings to tell us when we're supposed to rejoice in that a savior came to save us..true love for JESUS exists 24/7 it lives within, in fact its the only thing that keeps ME ALIVE..the duty to proclaim His gospel is also 24/7..not just during a once a year season that announces "peace and goodwill towards all men., I really don't know, nor ever heard..of anyone that came to JESUS as a result of xmastime.
Doesn't mean it hasn't happened but you'd think that with all the alleged 'witnessing' there'd be millions flocking to be baptized in JESUSname., around this time. I wish that it was so.

Right, it doesn't really reach people, IMO.

[Truthseeker]

I see. So, if I don't worship my tree, but worship Jesus, is it ok? I mean, if we want to nitpick methods, I can show you pagans who speak in tongues in worship to their gods, receive communion in worship to their gods, dance around and shout, etc.

But, having said that, I'm sure we'll never reach a consensus, but I do appreciate your spirit toward those who do celebrate Christmas.

My point was that just because a day is named sunday doesn't mean we celebrate paganism with pagan customs. Now on xmas pagan customs are used to supposely celebrate his birth.

[Michael Phelps]

My point was that just because a day is named sunday doesn't mean we celebrate paganism with pagan customs. Now on xmas pagan customs are used to supposely celebrate his birth.

Your position is duly noted. Not agreed with, but noted, lol.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Truthseeker]

Your position is duly noted. Not agreed with, but noted, lol.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.



No! let's continue to argue the subject with a mean spirit towards each other!!:guns:boxing:pillowfight:hunter:grumpy:hurt you

[Sister Phyllis]

WORLD WIDE PRAYER MINISTRY

CHRISTMAS MESSAGE


As we enter this Christmas season many people are very busy
going to and fro trying to find that perfect gift for a family member
or dear friend and many are spending Hugh sums of money for them. only to bein debt for months afterwards and so much stress .
As I sit and reflect on what Christmas really means to me and my family
I think back to when I was a child and we did not have all the technology things we have today and toys etc. but we had a wonderful time . Children were laughing and playing in the snow and looking forward to Christmas morning when they could open their gifts . I remember that we did not get a lot of gifts but what we got we loved and we did not get bored. Perhaps a girl got a favourite dolly to play with , a boy a fire-engine or Some building blocks and of course there was the stockings hung by the fire place filled to overflowing with such things as an orange or apple at the bottom , toothbrush, things for ones hair little things and candy, book to read on those winter cold nights.

Then followed the wonderful aroma of turkey cooking in the oven and the family get together , the reading of the Christmas story out of the Bible and singing of carols. Everyone was happy and had a great time

Today it is so commercialized everyone is forgetting what the real reason is for Christmas and I want to remind you of that reason in this letter to you all

For me and my family Christmas is about Jesus and not just His birth but His death, burial, & His resurrection and we celebrate this every day of our lives not just on Christmas day for Jesus came to save us from our sins that is why He was born , and we need to get back to the reason for His birth that it was not for all the gifts we can getthe money spent to do this but to recognize that without Jesus we would be lost in sin with no hope for the future. People please remember why you are celebrating Christmas this year and put Jesus back into the larger picture.

SCRIPTURE

Mt 2:1 (KJV) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. 3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. Matthew 2:1-3

And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. 7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. 9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. Matthew 2:4-11 (KJV)

Folks this Christmas lets take time to sit down with our families and re re-read the Christmas story from the Bible and teach our children what the real meaning of Christmas is. Lets help them to realize that the little baby born in a mangercame to be our Saviour and that His name is Jesus . Emmanuel, God with us. and that we need to celebrate this every dayof our lives not just at this time of the year.

We the staff of World Wide Prayer Ministry wish you all the very best in the coming year and appreciateall that you have each done to make this prayer ministry what it is today and that you are all in our prayers on a daily basis. You are loved and we are here for each of you. God bless

Sister Phyllis Corbin
Founder, Overseer, Prayer Warrior, bible-teacher
World Wide Prayer Ministry
phylliscorbin@yahoo.ca

Pastor Rodney Shultis
World Wide Prayer Ministry
Prayer Warrior
rodneyvshultis@yahoo.com

Evangelist Ricky Faulkenberry
Co-0wner of Prayer Group
adahgrasscutting@yahoo.com

Sister Tonya
Prayer Warrior
Moderator
ApostolicLady68@msn.com.

Brother Chris Taylor
Prayer Warrior
Moderator
apostolicchris2004@yahoo.com

Sister Berti
Prayer Warrior
Moderator
berti1950@yahoo.com

[AmazingGrace]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Scott Hutchinson]

Very thought provoking Sister Phyllis.

[RevBuddy]

Let's celebrate Christmas wholeheartedly with gusto and love and peace on earth and goodwill toward men...Merry Christmas everyone...

...and especially, Tiny Tim! :tiphat

[Neck]

Should we leave it up to the Muslim's

[Jason B]

bump

[Jason B]

I think Christmas is a great time of year. For a few weeks each year, the coming of the Savior of this world is celebrated.

Christmas songs speak of the oneness of God, the plan of salvation, and the coming Kingdom of God, when the earth will be filled with His glory and righteousness amongst other things. At no other time of year is the coming and life of Christ so celebrated.

[Nitehawk013]

Let the yearly arguing and condemnation begin. LOL.

[pastorrick1959]

there is nothing christian about this mess they call christmas.. #1-its not JESUS BIRTHDAY hardly anyone with any knowledge of the subject think it is just goes along with it /..#2-if it is his birthday why is evevrybody getting present and why do they say santa brings them instead of angels??
i tell ya why its paganism ,just go to the library its in the encyclopedia , christmas rightly said is christ/mas.. a catholic holiday trying to get the pagans of the day to worship JESUS ..noble idea but they brought along with it all the pagans customs ... tree,presents ,light were added later. the pagans were worshiping the sungod. not JESUS. it was outlawed in the u.s. by christians in 1800;s but they never stopped giving gifts so all of it came back . nothing wrong with giving gift heck i like them .. just not at a pagan time we give gifts at thanksgiving.

SO WHY DO I WANT TO BE A CHRISTAIN AND DO THE WAYS OF THE HEATHERN READ JEREMIAH 10 ..i dont and wont and never have since i was married in 1977.raised 3 kids that seem to turn out ok lol even tho they never got a christmas present from me .

[John Atkinson]

All anybody has to do to see the "Christmas spirit" in action is to have been at walmart last friday at 5:00 AM. I know at our local one there were people fighting over items, a friend of mine was there to get a gift for his girlfriend's kid, turned his back on his cart for an instant only to turn back and find someone had stolen it right out his cart.

Shows what people really are... a pack of selfish greedy animals. Christmas spirit. right. Personally I have no use for the day. I'll hang with family and eat ham, but that is about it.

Basically I see the day as a drunken revel for the world, and an opportunity for greedy marketers to reach into your wallet and take what little you have left after the bills are done and to make sure you have even more bills for next year.

Paganistic roots aside...

[John Atkinson]

And the other thing that really gets me is the number of Apostolic churches that will close their doors on a church day if xmass happens to fall on it. That is just plain shameful.

I thank God that our church's policy on it has always been, if family wants to spend time with us on xmass, they can come and do it at church.

Bah humbug...

[drummerboy_dave]

LOL. Let's continue to bump the dead horse.

Seeing these old threads is funny.

[Digging4Truth]

LOL. Let's continue to bump the dead horse.

Seeing these old threads is funny.

You know... I don't celebrate christmas and I don't judge those who do. But, no matter where one stands on the issue, I wonder how God views it when one brother finds another brothers convictions comical?

[drummerboy_dave]

Oh. Please forgive me. I didn't realize the joy police had banned laughing, too. <---sarcasm intended

Nice try with the guilt trip though, brother.
Peace.

[Nitehawk013]

I think God probably shakes his head over His people complaining about a holiday that in 2010 is pretty universally hailed as a celebration of said God's birth. LOL.

[Timmy]

I think God probably shakes his head over His people complaining about a holiday that in 2010 is pretty universally hailed as a celebration of said God's birth. LOL.

God was born? :blink



:heeheehee

[Scott Hutchinson]

I understand the pagan roots of Christmas or saturnalia is where it originated from,but the question remains can one put up a Christmas tree without worshipping it,or participate in Christmas customs without worshipping idols ?
I do some holiday things,and I am aware of the origin of these things.
I do respect brothers and sisters who abstain from all Christmas customs.
I do enjoy exchanging gifts,to be honest since I have been married I have never had a tree,but I don't cast people into the pit that do have one.
To some I would be a compromiser,but I can't please everybody.

I have always told my girls the truth about Santa Claus and such,but I am involved in some holiday things so to one faction I'm proably a heathen.
We have never hunted easter eggs,at my house also,but I'm not out here lamblasting everybody.

My advice would be to study the origin of things,pray and then the Holy Spirit guide you in what you should do.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Another thing I know the dates of Holidays like Easter and Christmas are suspect,but at least at this time of year,people acknowledge the birth of Christ who may not have otherwise.

[pastorrush]

My point exactly , Bro. Scott.

[Godsdrummer]

Religion

I have been thinking the last few days about religion. I do that a lot these days, it seems that I am coming to the understanding that people don't like change. Take Christmas traditions, christians very where celebrate the holidays as a christian holiday. Yet when someone questions this we get all up in arms and argue that it is alright to celebrate this pagan holiday as a christian holiday. Even when faced with facts that all the the traditions are based on idol worship with the names changed. Of course it goes well beyond this, I have seen doctrine's preached that cause division in the kingdom of God. doctrine's again based on tradition where one group believes different than another, and therefore condemns others because they may not hold as high of convictions as others.

Here is the big question I have. Do Apostolics truly believe that God gave them new salvational revelation in the early 1900's that would bring such division to the kingdom of God that would divide the church world in half? How aragant can one get. Can we truly believe that for hundreds of years that God let people go to hell because they did not have the understanding that was reveled in the early 1900's? I think not. God is no respector of persons and is not willing that any should perish. Yet with our way of thinking God sends hundreds and thousands to hell because they don't follow your our of thinking.

For a group of people that can't agree on what is sin and what is not that condemns others because they don't see our "plan of salvation" yet will stand and say it is ok to celibrate a pagan holiday that was formed for pagans by pagans in order to allow idol worshipers to call themselves christians.

True christianity is not determined by whether you have baptized according to our formulat or whether one speaks in tongues or follows a mans list of "standards of holiness". True christianity is determined by accepting by faith the gift offered through the cross, establishing a personal relationship with God by which the fruits of the spirit will be manifested.

I have seen too many tongue talking, oneness pentecostals, manefest a judgemental, pharisee spirit, with gossiping, prideful attitutedes stand up and say to another spirit filled brother or sister that they are not saved because they did not get salvation just the way they did.

Might I remind you that Peter asked when the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost who can refuse baptism seeing that God saved even the Gentiles because of their faith. By giving them the Holy Ghost even as he did us. This was before they were baptized.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Going beyond this because we have been taught something for years and it has been passed down from generation to generation we accept this as truth. Without searching the scriptures for ourselves. We cannot be indoctrinated by studying a different thought other than what we believe. Too many times we refuse to accept truth when it is staring us in the face simply because it is different than what we have been taught and we refuse to ask God and get into the word and take a new look at what are our traditions.

[Truthseeker]

Let the yearly arguing and condemnation begin. LOL.

You left out fleshly justification.:thumbsup

[Truthseeker]

I think God probably shakes his head over His people complaining about a holiday that in 2010 is pretty universally hailed as a celebration of said God's birth. LOL.

God had a birth?? Wow

[Truthseeker]

bump

Trouble maker!!!

[comeasyouare]

I understand the pagan roots of Christmas or saturnalia is where it originated from,but the question remains can one put up a Christmas tree without worshipping it,or participate in Christmas customs without worshipping idols ?
I do some holiday things,and I am aware of the origin of these things.
I do respect brothers and sisters who abstain from all Christmas customs.
I do enjoy exchanging gifts,to be honest since I have been married I have never had a tree,but I don't cast people into the pit that do have one.
To some I would be a compromiser,but I can't please everybody.

I have always told my girls the truth about Santa Claus and such,but I am involved in some holiday things so to one faction I'm proably a heathen.
We have never hunted easter eggs,at my house also,but I'm not out here lamblasting everybody.

My advice would be to study the origin of things,pray and then the Holy Spirit guide you in what you should do.

I see this as a good post with good, legitimate questions. I did an extensive research and study on the historical origin of the holidays many years ago and wrote a book and tract on the holidays. Back then we put everyone in Hell along with the Catholics for celebrating them. Since then I've learned better.

It is indisputable that Christmas began in a Babylonian festival in worship of the sun at the winter solstice and was later transformed into a "Christian" festival by the Catholic Church. But, the MODERN DAY celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with the pagan worship of ANCIENT civilizations. Such associations have long been erased. In our country Christmas is not strictly a "Christian" observance but also a secular holiday having been named a national holiday by Congress.

It is impossible to worship the idol gods and goddesses of the ancient Roman Empire. One cannot worship stautes that no longer stand in the forum, bath houses, etc., and within Temples that are gone! The worship of the old gods was destroyed by Rome when Constantine made "Christianity" the official state religion. Well, I might say idolatry took on a mystery form, hidden in "Mystery Babylon." (Rev. 17:5)

The worship of the true God, who is invisible, is a spiritual worship (St. John 4:23), but idolatry is a falling down to physical statues, images of gods that could be seen. The temples, altars, priesthoods, images and cults of the gods are gone and cannot be resurrected in any type of spiritual worship. No one today worships SATURN or MITHRAS or MARY or an evergreen tree in the MODERN DAY celebration of Christmas. I see that the pagan elements have long been erased.

[renee819]

My concern is the little and little compromise of the Church. Neither do I believe in a dictatorship of the Ministers, telling people, “you can’t do this or that.”

But I am all for the education of Christians that might not know any better. However, each must make up their own mind, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

I can understand why many don’t want to give up Christmas. You will pretty much become a loner, whether you want to be or not. You will not only be mocked by the world, but shunned by your family as well as the church. But should that stop us, when we learn the truth? Or should we compromise and go along with the world?

That is the question, that everyone has to settle in their own heart. I used to like Christmas, although I knew there was something wrong, and never taught my children about Santa Claus, nor the Easter Bunny, nor even the Tooth Fairy.

And then about 25-30 yrs ago, through study, especially the book—“The Two Babylon’s,” I found where the roots of Christmas came from. That did it for me, I haven’t celebrated since then. I still love to get to-gather with my family. It might be a week before or a week after, whenever everyone can be there. But they know my stand, and I told them, I won’t be buying any gifts, neither do I want them to give me any. However, they still do give me gifts. Which I feel a little guilty in accepting.

One year, I did refuse to accept any gifts. Some of my husbands people acted like I had slapped them in the face. So After that, I decided to take the gifts graciously, and say nothing else about it.

It’s not an easy decision. It boils down to, how much are you willing to compromise.

[Heavenslove]

Christmas is the wrong date.

And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. - Luke 2:8-11 KJV

The Shepherds do not live out with their flocks(abiding in the field) at Christmas, the latest is around October.

I had personal revelation(a great glory was felt by me about this) to confirm Yahshuas birth around the time of Sukkot.

Bible scholar Michael Rood also teaches this if you do not have the prophetic insight and want some proof.

The revelation I recieved(around the time of Sukkot) had 2 messages "A child is born" and "He was a Nazarite from the womb". I simply could not stop saying these 2 verses. They were intensely interesting and I repeated them under a feeling of glory from the Ruach HaKodesh. This is how the Holy Spirit gift operates in me sometimes.

www.pleaseconvinceme.com(I don't know anything about the trustability of this website but I just googled it) expounds on Luke 2:8

Notice a couple of things here. It is clear that the shepherds are living in the fields with their sheep. The Greek word translated here in the New American Standard Version as “staying out” is ‘agrauloúntes’. It means that they were staying over night; the shepherds were ‘camping out’, so to speak. In the KJV, the expression translated as “abiding in” the fields with their sheep. They are not out on a day trip, at least not according to the scripture. They are actually living out there with their flock! This certainly seems to indicate that we are within the range of time when shepherds drove their sheep into the open fields and stayed with them for the May to October time period. They are already out there at the time of Jesus’ birth, and they apparently have not yet returned. If nothing else, this seems to indicate that Jesus is born sometime between May and October, and certainly not as late in the winter as December.

'santa' is 'satan' spelt different

[RandyWayne]

'santa' is 'satan' spelt different

And 'Jesus' in English is pronounced differently than 'Jesus' in Spanish.

[Esaias]

No, they shouldn't.

[Esaias]

My concern is the little and little compromise of the Church. Neither do I believe in a dictatorship of the Ministers, telling people, “you can’t do this or that.”

But I am all for the education of Christians that might not know any better. However, each must make up their own mind, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

I can understand why many don’t want to give up Christmas. You will pretty much become a loner, whether you want to be or not. You will not only be mocked by the world, but shunned by your family as well as the church. But should that stop us, when we learn the truth? Or should we compromise and go along with the world?

That is the question, that everyone has to settle in their own heart. I used to like Christmas, although I knew there was something wrong, and never taught my children about Santa Claus, nor the Easter Bunny, nor even the Tooth Fairy.

And then about 25-30 yrs ago, through study, especially the book—“The Two Babylon’s,” I found where the roots of Christmas came from. That did it for me, I haven’t celebrated since then. I still love to get to-gather with my family. It might be a week before or a week after, whenever everyone can be there. But they know my stand, and I told them, I won’t be buying any gifts, neither do I want them to give me any. However, they still do give me gifts. Which I feel a little guilty in accepting.

One year, I did refuse to accept any gifts. Some of my husbands people acted like I had slapped them in the face. So After that, I decided to take the gifts graciously, and say nothing else about it.

It’s not an easy decision. It boils down to, how much are you willing to compromise.

It's funny... people just won't let people be! It's like they want to FORCE you to do the Christ-Mass thing, or the Ishtar bunny thing, or the Hell-oween thing, and can't just let a family live in peace.

Trust me, I know.

[Timmy]

It's funny... people just won't let people be! It's like they want to FORCE you to do the Christ-Mass thing, or the Ishtar bunny thing, or the Hell-oween thing, and can't just let a family live in peace.

Trust me, I know.

I agree. And vice versa.

Our church's school had one family that didn't believe in Christmas. They demanded that the school have no decorations or celebrations. Guess what. The school obeyed that one family. No Christmas decor was allowed in any classroom or common areas.

[Esaias]

I agree. And vice versa.

Our church's school had one family that didn't believe in Christmas. They demanded that the school have no decorations or celebrations. Guess what. The school obeyed that one family. No Christmas decor was allowed in any classroom or common areas.

It is one thing to disagree with someone over the keeping of a holiday or holy day. It is another to try and force others to keep what they do not wish to keep, especially in that good old passive-aggressive way...

:icecream

[TGBTG]

I agree. And vice versa.

Our church's school had one family that didn't believe in Christmas. They demanded that the school have no decorations or celebrations. Guess what. The school obeyed that one family. No Christmas decor was allowed in any classroom or common areas.

Curious..was this a Christian family (that does not celebrate christmas) or a family offended by a christian celebration?

[Scott Hutchinson]

I believe Christians should study the origins of these things like Christmas,and then ask The Lord for guidance in they should do about them.

[Aquila]

Every day belongs to Jesus. If the pagans took a day to honor false Gods... take it back and honor the God of creation... Jesus Christ. Take dominion.

[RandyWayne]

Curious..was this a Christian family (that does not celebrate christmas) or a family offended by a christian celebration?

Funny how so many people refuse to celebrate Christmas for BOTH reasons.

[Esaias]

Funny how so many people refuse to celebrate Christmas for BOTH reasons.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sectionfront/life/when-christmas-was-illegal-515938/

[Timmy]

Curious..was this a Christian family (that does not celebrate christmas) or a family offended by a christian celebration?

Christian family.

[Pressing-On]

This is stunning! Made out of paper plates.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k_9WdX-PM9w/UJfNklCiUVI/AAAAAAAADNM/i0YXAKicJBo/s640/DSC_0030_3509.JPG

http://cat-arzyna.blogspot.com/2012/11/skrzyda.html

[Sister Alvear]

wow...that is beautiful...someone has a lot of talent...

[CC1]

wow...that is beautiful...someone has a lot of talent...

And a lot of time on their hands!

[Sister Alvear]

Wish I could do things like that...my sister's do a lot of crafts....lol...a dummy in every family....

[Amanah]

we should see how many years we can keep this thread going . . .
(2007 - 2012 = 5 years so far).

[3=1not1=3]

I know that it isn't the correct time of year to celebrate his birth. I know that Christmas trees have pagan origins. I also know that the association of Christmas with Santa Claus is revolting. However, I do believe we should celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Giving gifts is such a joy, even though mine is never a surprise, because I buy my own. It seems to be a time of year when Christians and non-Christians seem to have softer hearts and it definitely presents opportunities to witness. It also allows many families to have an "excuse" to gather, even if it means traveling quite a distance. This gives us the opportunity to plant seeds within our family for the growth and conversion of non-believing family members.

Should we celebrate? Yes! Just remember to keep the man in the red suit out of it.

[TGBTG]

Christmas trees are no worse than having a regular tree. They are ALL trees...lol

Gen 1
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

God is the originator of Christmas trees...lol

...this is my contribution to the ANNUAL Christmas argument :)

[RandyWayne]

I know that it isn't the correct time of year to celebrate his birth. I know that Christmas trees have pagan origins. I also know that the association of Christmas with Santa Claus is revolting. However, I do believe we should celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Giving gifts is such a joy, even though mine is never a surprise, because I buy my own. It seems to be a time of year when Christians and non-Christians seem to have softer hearts and it definitely presents opportunities to witness. It also allows many families to have an "excuse" to gather, even if it means traveling quite a distance. This gives us the opportunity to plant seeds within our family for the growth and conversion of non-believing family members.

Should we celebrate? Yes! Just remember to keep the man in the red suit out of it.

What is so revolting about Santa?

http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://cf.badassdigest.com/_uploads/images/13443/sndnfeat__span.jpg&sa=X&ei=K723UOTyOYeniALJ4oDYAQ&ved=0CAkQ8wc4GQ&usg=AFQjCNGtrEZrlCx3WPer1f-vBNXGbBntpQ

[3=1not1=3]

Love it!

[J4Truth]

I think the situations is not just that these are heathen customs because the heathen have a lot of customs that we adopt in many forms, but being that the celebrations of Christmas or Jesus's birth can not be separated from Worship. Meaning that which we do unto Jesus is indeed Worship. So everything surrounding ones Christmas celebration if one is doing it unto Jesus is worship unto Jesus. And if God don't want us to include heathen customs in worship than we have to contend with that.

But we have to be smart or use some intelligence. The Bible allows for singing, dancing, speaking in tongues, gathering in worship and various things that are also can be heathen customs or done by the heathens also but as the Bible puts it they are Holy Ghost traditions and are therefore allowed. In other words you don't have to worry about if a worship custom is heathen or have some form of heathens doing it somewhere down in history if the Bible references it or justify it.