ATLANTA BISHOP Writes Scathing Letter agianst Senator & Investigation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thad]

Senator Chuck Grassley - The Enemy of Ministry
Pastors and Ministers
This is the face of The Enemy of Ministry



Dear Pastor and Christian Minister, Your rights as a Pastor, Minister, Evangelist or CEO of a Christian - Non-Profit Church or Organization is being threatened by the Enemy of Ministry - Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa. I have sent him many emails and have called his office many times in the last week and have not received one reply from him or anyone in his office.

Senator Grassley has launched an intensive investigation into the Christian Ministries of several High Profile Pastors and Ministries. He has sent demand letters to Bishop Eddie Long, Pastors Crefflo and Taffi Dollar, Pastor Benny Hinn, Joyce & Dave Myer, Pastor's Randy and Paula White and Kenneth and Gloria Copeland. If he can do this to six, (with others on the waiting list) he can do it to 60, then 600, then 6000. He has no right or power or jurisdiction to launch such an investigation. It is pure intimidation and blackmail for him or anyone to say, If you don't give me what I want, I will haul you before the senate for questioning. What a shame and a disgrace for a man that calls himself a Christian. We must stand together against these demands against Christian Ministers, Pastors and Churches.

Please write or phone Senator Grassley's offices. He has MANY offices at tax payer expense.
Please call and write and tell them you are against his investigation into the Christian Ministers and Churches and you want him to stop his demands. He needs to leave the investigation to the IRS and those that are responsible to investigate these Non-profit organizations. I think Mr. Grassley needs to be investigated for his extravagance in keeping seven offices and many employees at Tax Payer Expense! This man needs to apologize to the Pastors, Minister's and Churches of America for his role in harassing the ministry.

Here are Senator Grassley's offices:

Washington Office
135 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510-1501
(202) 224-3744


Grassley's Iowa Offices
Cedar Rapids
206 Federal Building
101 1st Street, S.E.
Cedar Rapids, IA 52401
(319) 363-6832
Fax: (319) 363-7179

Council Bluffs
307 Federal Building
8 South 6th Street
Council Bluffs, IA 51501
(712) 322-7103
Fax: (712) 322-7196


Davenport
131 West 3rd Street
Suite 180
Davenport, IA 52801
(563) 322-4331
Fax: (563) 322-8552

Des Moines
721 Federal Building
210 Walnut Street
Des Moines, IA 50309
(515) 288-1145
Fax: (515) 288-5097


Sioux City
120 Federal Building
320 6th Street
Sioux City, IA 51101
(712) 233-1860
Fax: (712) 233-1634

Waterloo
210 Waterloo Building
531 Commercial Street
Waterloo, IA 50701
(319) 232-6657
Fax: (319) 232-9965

[Thad]

((((((((((*** NEWS FLASH ****))))))




Did you hear that this Letter was in Today's Atlanta Constitution News paper ??????? WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!











.

[revrandy]

Is Atlanta Bishop not wanting to give an account of Not for Profit Organization funds??

[Thad]

Is Atlanta Bishop not wanting to give an account of Not for Profit Organization funds??


I don't know I am hoping this will get him back on the forum :bliss


his Ban has expired so............................we'll see :tease

[revrandy]

Why does he protect the sheep fleecers??

Is this his IN to TBN???

I think that is his desire now that he's had a "taste" of what it's like..

imo...

I would certainly hope not... but his sudden "protection" of this group is interesting..

[Thad]

Why does he protect the sheep fleecers??

Is this his IN to TBN???

I think that is his desire now that he's had a "taste" of what it's like..

imo...

I would certainly hope not... but his sudden "protection" of this group is interesting..



well this post ought to get him riled up !!!! :ursofunny


maybe he is just afraid that ALL churches will now be under the microscope ??

YOu don't want churches to start getting taxed do you randy ????

[Elizabeth]

If he can do this to six, (with others on the waiting list) he can do it to 60, then 600, then 6000. He has no right or power or jurisdiction to launch such an investigation. It is pure intimidation and blackmail for him or anyone to say, If you don't give me what I want, I will haul you before the senate for questioning. What a shame and a disgrace for a man that calls himself a Christian. We must stand together against these demands against Christian Ministers, Pastors and Churches.

This is a very very good point and should be taken very seriously!!!


You know no one forced people to give to these ministries, some have followers that support them on the monthly basis. These folks/partners what have you give of their own free will they can stop or not give at anytime.


We may not like how these big ministries live but, if they didnt have followers who follow them out of their own freedom of choice to do so, they would not have the lifestyles they have.

In other words, I do not think the government has a right to dictate what ministries we support, and what those ministries choose to do with their support.

[RevDWW]

Romans 13:1 - 10 (KJV)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Hmmmm, does this have any bearing on this issue?

[revrandy]

This is a very very good point and should be taken very seriously!!!


You know no one forced people to give to these ministries, some have followers that support them on the monthly basis. These folks/partners what have you give of their own free will they can stop or not give at anytime.


We may not like how these big ministries live but, if they didnt have followers who follow them out of their own freedom of choice to do so, they would not have the lifestyles they have.

In other words, I do not think the government has a right to dictate what ministries we support, and what those ministries choose to do with their support.

This is all true....and by the same principle then Folks who defraud others shouldn't be held accountable either...because they were given money by others of their free will... same principle...

[RevDWW]

This is a very very good point and should be taken very seriously!!!


You know no one forced people to give to these ministries, some have followers that support them on the monthly basis. These folks/partners what have you give of their own free will they can stop or not give at anytime.


We may not like how these big ministries live but, if they didnt have followers who follow them out of their own freedom of choice to do so, they would not have the lifestyles they have.

In other words, I do not think the government has a right to dictate what ministries we support, and what those ministries choose to do with their support.


It appears that AB is no Apostle Paul.....I don't recall Paul belly aching about having to go before magistrates, rulers, and kings.....of course it was his doctrine that was in question and not his finances....where was that passage he wrote about "money cometh"? :ursofunny

[revrandy]

It appears that AB is no Apostle Paul.....I don't recall Paul belly aching about having to go before magistrates, rulers, and kings.....of course it was his doctrine that was in question and not his finances....where was that passage he wrote about "money cometh"? :ursofunny

Thas' Cuz he spent most of his time in Jail...anyways... :)

[MrsMcD]

I don't know I am hoping this will get him back on the forum :bliss


his Ban has expired so............................we'll see :tease

I would think that AB gets tired of the slack he catches on this forum.

[RevDWW]

I would think that AB gets tired of the slack he catches on this forum.

Yes he catches way to much SLACK! :ursofunny

[Thad]

I would think that AB gets tired of the slack he catches on this forum.

and what would that be ???

[Elizabeth]

This is all true....and by the same principle then Folks who defraud others shouldn't be held accountable either...because they were given money by others of their free will... same principle...

I wanted to say more, but its really hard to post with a 17 month old grabbing everything--

I agree that they should be held accountable but if it starts with them who will it stop with?

Then they will be coming to the little guy and investigating him as well-where does it stop?

Perhaps they need to be investigated, but where do you draw the line?

[MrsMcD]

and what would that be ???

:snapout

[Elizabeth]

It appears that AB is no Apostle Paul.....I don't recall Paul belly aching about having to go before magistrates, rulers, and kings.....of course it was his doctrine that was in question and not his finances....where was that passage he wrote about "money cometh"? :ursofunny

At least he had the guts to say something, I think AB sees where all this stuff is leading.

[revrandy]

I wanted to say more, but its really hard to post with a 17 month old grabbing everything--

I agree that they should be held accountable but if it starts with them who will it stop with?

Then they will be coming to the little guy and investigating him as well-where does it stop?

Perhaps they need to be investigated, but where do you draw the line?

Somebody has been in the Hills of Tennessee....:D

[Thad]

:snapout


i really don't know what you are speaking of - i know that he and Bro "B" got into an open argument but both were banned - enlighten us will you

[Elizabeth]

Somebody has been in the Hills of Tennessee....:D

I caught it, can I delete this post?

[Thad]

At least he had the guts to say something, I think AB sees where all this stuff is leading.


how should misappropriation be handled??

you see, a lot of charismatic churches are independant. the so called "coverings" are their "Friends" - understand ???

So, the people have no one to turn to in some cases.


I think this is what some of the members are fearing of the churches that are leaving UPC. not that they are so dyed in the wool about UPC but that they fear the good ole boy thing happening- make sense ?

[MrsMcD]

At least he had the guts to say something, I think AB sees where all this stuff is leading.

Exactly! If a senator can launch an intensive investigation on these folks, who is going to be next.

[Elizabeth]

how should misappropriation be handled??

you see, a lot of charismatic churches are independant. the so called "coverings" are their "Friends" - understand ???

So, the people have no one to turn to in some cases.


I think this is what some of the members are fearing of the churches that are leaving UPC. not that they are so dyed in the wool about UPC but that they fear the good ole boy thing happening- make sense ?

Don't they have the IRS for that???

But a full fledged senate investigation?

What we should be mad at is how their ill behavior is going effect EVERYONE!!!

[MrsMcD]

i really don't know what you are speaking of - i know that he and Bro "B" got into an open argument but both were banned - enlighten us will you

There is nothing to enlighten. :thumbsup

[revrandy]

Exactly! If a senator can launch an intensive investigation on these folks, who is going to be next.

We're certainly not talking about 'average people' here...

We're talking about Multi-Millionaires with Million Dollar Estates...Planes... and Luxury Cars......made

on the backs of widows and the elderly...and the young.. giving to a Non-Profit Organization... in the name

of God...

[Elizabeth]

Exactly! If a senator can launch an intensive investigation on these folks, who is going to be next.

That is right!

I think its a matter of other Christians/Christian Org's holding these folks accountable and really having a voice that not everyone supports their philosophy of finance distribution.

[Thad]

Don't they have the IRS for that???

But a full fledged senate investigation?

What we should be mad at is how their ill behavior is going effect EVERYONE!!!


now that's a thought !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


another thing is this, The Senator said that he is doing this after numerous Letters, calls, emails from former donors asking him to do it

what do you all think about that ?/?

[Theresa]

you know what it boils down to...as it does with ANYthing...

they can's "misspend" money folks aren't WILLINGLY giving...

who forces anyone to spend money on things?

They need to spend their time deciding who's fleecing us at the pump and at the electric companies...

[Theresa]

now that's a thought !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


another thing is this, The Senator said that he is doing this after numerous Letters, calls, emails from former donors asking him to do it

what do you all think about that ?/?

the donors should stop donating..and learn from their stupidity

[Elizabeth]

We're certainly not talking about 'average people' here...

We're talking about Multi-Millionaires with Million Dollar Estates...Planes... and Luxury Cars......made

on the backs of widows and the elderly...and the young.. giving to a Non-Profit Organization... in the name

of God...

I want one of those!! The flying we do are long long flights, it is no picnic--I can actually understand why someone would want their own.

[revrandy]

you know what it boils down to...as it does with ANYthing...

they can's "misspend" money folks aren't WILLINGLY giving...

who forces anyone to spend money on things?

They need to spend their time deciding who's fleecing us at the pump and at the electric companies...

Conspiracy anybody...:boomm:helicopter

[Theresa]

who decides it was "misspent"?

someone wants to support my ministry, I see buying my shoes, vacations, handbags etc...as support.

and so?

dont like it? dont support me :)

[Elizabeth]

now that's a thought !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


another thing is this, The Senator said that he is doing this after numerous Letters, calls, emails from former donors asking him to do it

what do you all think about that ?/?

They are asking a Senator from Iowa to investigate?

[Thad]

you know what it boils down to...as it does with ANYthing...

they can's "misspend" money folks aren't WILLINGLY giving...

who forces anyone to spend money on things?

They need to spend their time deciding who's fleecing us at the pump and at the electric companies...


I guess it is their business what they buy with THEIR OWN Money- If they sell books and all , then they should buy w/it what they want - no???

however, let's say they are raising money for hungry children in Africa but instead of using that money for the hungry children, they take a vacation and go on a shopping spree - that would be where the IRS should step in

[Thad]

They are asking a Senator from Iowa to investigate?


the reason why is, he has done it before - i forgot now what it was, but he uncovered some other mess one time so now whenever people suspect something is not right, they are starting to turn to him

[MrsMcD]

We're certainly not talking about 'average people' here...

We're talking about Multi-Millionaires with Million Dollar Estates...Planes... and Luxury Cars......made

on the backs of widows and the elderly...and the young.. giving to a Non-Profit Organization... in the name

of God...

I see your point but I don't know what can be done about it.

[Elizabeth]

you know what it boils down to...as it does with ANYthing...

they can's "misspend" money folks aren't WILLINGLY giving...

who forces anyone to spend money on things?

They need to spend their time deciding who's fleecing us at the pump and at the electric companies...

If you are a monthly supporter, do they know where the money goes? I dont think they care...as long as they are sowing seed into the ministry of their choice.

You're right, if I walk up to someone and say I want to sow a 1k seed into your ministry, with no strings attached, and that person needs new tires on their car--what"s wrong with buying new tires? If that makes sense.

In other words, if people give you money, your gonna spend it on yourself! Right?

[MrsMcD]

I guess it is their business what they buy with THEIR OWN Money- If they sell books and all , then they should buy w/it what they want - no???

however, let's say they are raising money for hungry children in Africa but instead of using that money for the hungry children, they take a vacation and go on a shopping spree - that would be where the IRS should step in

I have a problem with this. They could even deceive the IRS on their tax return. So, who are they responsible to?

[Elizabeth]

the reason why is, he has done it before - i forgot now what it was, but he uncovered some other mess one time so now whenever people suspect something is not right, they are starting to turn to him

I didnt realize that, good observation.

[Thad]

There is nothing to enlighten. :thumbsup



***** QUESTION *****


Do you all feel that AB has been unfairly targeted ???

[MrsMcD]

***** QUESTION *****


Do you all feel that AB has been unfairly targeted ???

I think the letter he wrote was good. :D

[Elizabeth]

What it boils down to,

Its just like Movie Stars, Music Stars and Sports Figures.

Its OUR FAULT!

We support these folks, buy there stuff, pay big prices for their images.

Then get mad at them for what WE have CREATED!!!


IT IS A SYMTOM OF OUR SOCIETY---PLUS plus...it is the AMERICAN Way no one can stop you from making money in America!

[Elizabeth]

I think the letter he wrote was good. :D

I do too!

[Theresa]

if they say they are raising money for orphans in Africa...no one says they have to give X amount of money to the actual orphans in Africa. As long as what they actually give, is reported to the IRS...whos to say what they do with the rest of it?

I need new shoes to wear on my broadcast raising money for orphans....some poor sap donated for the orphan cause, and I bought my shoes with it...and used it to pay for my jet to take pictures of me with those same orphans...

It all went to the orphan "cause"

and I gave them a little money, and allocated the rest for "administrative costs"

bottom line:

Its the IRS responsibility to make sure what they are reporting is accurate.

but if some idiot wants to give their hard earned money to some preacher on TV...it's no senators job to find out what the "Minister" did with the money

[Elizabeth]

***** QUESTION *****


Do you all feel that AB has been unfairly targeted ???

This thread isnt about him being unfairly targeted right?

[Elizabeth]

if they say they are raising money for orphans in Africa...no one says they have to give X amount of money to the actual orphans in Africa. As long as what they actually give, is reported to the IRS...whos to say what they do with the rest of it?

I need new shoes to wear on my broadcast raising money for orphans....some poor sap donated for the orphan cause, and I bought my shoes with it...and used it to pay for my jet to take pictures of me with those same orphans...

It all went to the orphan "cause"

and I gave them a little money, and allocated the rest for "administrative costs"

bottom line:

Its the IRS responsibility to make sure what they are reporting is accurate.

but if some idiot wants to give their hard earned money to some preacher on TV...it's no senators job to find out what the "Minister" did with the money

:thumbsup

[MrsMcD]

This thread isnt about him being unfairly targeted right?

Thad is trying to get AB back to the forum and I made the statement that "I would think that AB gets tired of the slack he catches on this forum." I wasn't referring to Thad but I think Thad thought I was. Of course, AB can dish it out and take it. LOL

[Thad]

Thad is trying to get AB back to the forum and I made the statement that "I would think that AB gets tired of the slack he catches on this forum." I wasn't referring to Thad but I think Thad thought I was. Of course, AB can dish it out and take it. LOL




MrsMcD is under the impression that AB has been attacked on this thread

[Elizabeth]

Thad is trying to get AB back to the forum and I made the statement that "I would think that AB gets tired of the slack he catches on this forum." I wasn't referring to Thad but I think Thad thought I was. Of course, AB can dish it out and take it. LOL

Oh Thad is just operating in his gifting of.....:stirpot

[Elizabeth]

MrsMcD is under the impression that AB has been attacked on this thread

Ok I posted before I read this,so you're not :stirpot?

[MrsMcD]

MrsMcD is under the impression that AB has been attacked on this thread

:stirpot:stirpot:stirpot:stirpot:stirpot:stirpot

Keep stirring. :D

[Thad]

Ok I posted before I read this,so you're not :stirpot?

all joking aside, i think his post are often misunderstood - not necessarily this topic per say- that was MrsMc who thought that, but just his posting style in general. I know how it is because a lot of people misunderstand me and my posting style :bliss

[Thad]

:stirpot:stirpot:stirpot:stirpot:stirpot:stirpot

Keep stirring. :D



well am i right or wrong ???????????????????????????????????

[Elizabeth]

all joking aside, i think his post are often misunderstood - not necessarily this topic per say- that was MrsMc who thought that, but just his posting style in general. I know how it is because a lot of people misunderstand me and my posting style :bliss

Like when you call people charismatic that are not??? :stirpot :D

[Thad]

Like when you call people charasmatic that are not??? :stirpot :D


that is one of the biggest THRILLS i get from being on this forum!!!!:ursofunny

[Theresa]

slack?

nope, shorts

havent y'all seen the goatee?

[dizzyde]

Like when you call people charasmatic that are not??? :stirpot :D

that is one of the biggest THRILLS i get from being on this forum!!!!:ursofunny

:girlpopcorn :toofunny

[dizzyde]

I wanted to say more, but its really hard to post with a 17 month old grabbing everything--

I agree that they should be held accountable but if it starts with them who will it stop with?

Then they will be coming to the little guy and investigating him as well-where does it stop?

Perhaps they need to be investigated, but where do you draw the line?

Somebody has been in the Hills of Tennessee....:D

I caught it, can I delete this post?

:blink :didimiss

Did I miss something? Man, if saying "draw the line" is country, then it's official. I am the biggest hick around! ??

[Elizabeth]

that is one of the biggest THRILLS i get from being on this forum!!!!:ursofunny

:tricycle

you never know whose reading ummmm :coffee2

[revrandy]

I'm probably one of the most charismatic people I know...:D

[Elizabeth]

:blink :didimiss

Did I miss something? Man, if saying "draw the line" is country, then it's official. I am the biggest hick around! ??

I need to delete it, he caught a typo that I already corrected--so it doesnt make sense now.

[revrandy]

I need to delete it, he caught a typo that I already corrected--so it doesnt make sense now.

:D....Sure it does...

You Said...and I quote..."Drawl the Line".... if tha's not country I don' know what is... :)

[Elizabeth]

I'm probably one of the most charismatic people I know...:D

your pretty charismatic in you re own right.

[Elizabeth]

:D....Sure it does...

You Said...and I quote..."Draw the Line".... if tha's not country I don' know what is... :)

thats what I said..

[Elizabeth]

Randy, Im messing with ya!

I am a bad speller, not a hick!

[chaotic_resolve]

Senator Chuck Grassley - The Enemy of Ministry Pastors and Ministers This is the face of The Enemy of Ministry


Dear Pastor and Christian Minister, Your rights as a Pastor, Minister, Evangelist or CEO of a Christian - Non-Profit Church or Organization is being threatened by the Enemy of Ministry - Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa. I have sent him many emails and have called his office many times in the last week and have not received one reply from him or anyone in his office.

Senator Grassley has launched an intensive investigation into the Christian Ministries of several High Profile Pastors and Ministries. He has sent demand letters to Bishop Eddie Long, Pastors Crefflo and Taffi Dollar, Pastor Benny Hinn, Joyce & Dave Myer, Pastor's Randy and Paula White and Kenneth and Gloria Copeland. If he can do this to six, (with others on the waiting list) he can do it to 60, then 600, then 6000. He has no right or power or jurisdiction to launch such an investigation. It is pure intimidation and blackmail for him or anyone to say, If you don't give me what I want, I will haul you before the senate for questioning. What a shame and a disgrace for a man that calls himself a Christian. We must stand together against these demands against Christian Ministers, Pastors and Churches.

Please write or phone Senator Grassley's offices. He has MANY offices at tax payer expense. Please call and write and tell them you are against his investigation into the Christian Ministers and Churches and you want him to stop his demands. He needs to leave the investigation to the IRS and those that are responsible to investigate these Non-profit organizations. I think Mr. Grassley needs to be investigated for his extravagance in keeping seven offices and many employees at Tax Payer Expense! This man needs to apologize to the Pastors, Minister's and Churches of America for his role in harassing the ministry.

:runhills :reaction ****MAJOR OVER REACTION ALERT!!!**** :reaction :runhills

It is pure intimidation and blackmail for him or anyone to say, If you don't give me what I want, I will haul you before the senate for questioning.
Sorry, but that statement's just ridiculous. Grassley isn't doing this as a vendetta against churches. He's not the devil out to hurt good ministers. He's responding to complaints coming into his office about these hypocritical, greedy, self-righteous "ministers" that take money from their lower-income saints to feed their greed for the lifestyle of a millionaire.

Grassley's investigation is a God-send and a wake up call for ministers like these and for saints who support these 50-cent type, "get rich or die tryin" fake preachers.

[Thad]

:runhills :reaction ****MAJOR OVER REACTION ALERT!!!**** :reaction :runhills


Sorry, but that statement's just ridiculous. Grassley isn't doing this as a vendetta against churches. He's not the devil out to hurt good ministers. He's responding to complaints coming into his office about these hypocritical, greedy, self-righteous "ministers" that take money from their lower-income saints to feed their greed for the lifestyle of a millionaire.

Grassley's investigation is a God-send and a wake up call for ministers like these and for saints who support these 50-cent type, "get rich or die tryin" fake preachers.


Atlanta Bishop, I challenge you to come on back and face this accusation!!!! you need to address this last post sir !!!!!

[StillStanding]

:runhills :reaction ****MAJOR OVER REACTION ALERT!!!**** :reaction :runhills


Sorry, but that statement's just ridiculous. Grassley isn't doing this as a vendetta against churches. He's not the devil out to hurt good ministers. He's responding to complaints coming into his office about these hypocritical, greedy, self-righteous "ministers" that take money from their lower-income saints to feed their greed for the lifestyle of a millionaire.

Grassley's investigation is a God-send and a wake up call for ministers like these and for saints who support these 50-cent type, "get rich or die tryin" fake preachers.

I agree!!! :thumbsup

I think there would be an uproar if the director of United Way (or any other non-profit) was driving around in a Rolls, had a private Lear jet, and lived in a multi-million dollar mansion. Why? Because there's something unethical about getting rich off a non-profit!

[Thad]

I agree!!! :thumbsup

I think there would be an uproar if the director of United Way (or any other non-profit) was driving around in a Rolls, had a private Lear jet, and lived in a multi-million dollar mansion. Why? Because there's something unethical about getting rich off a non-profit!


So you're against ABs letter too????????????????????????

[Elizabeth]

I agree!!! :thumbsup

I think there would be an uproar if the director of United Way (or any other non-profit) was driving around in a Rolls, had a private Lear jet, and lived in a multi-million dollar mansion. Why? Because there's something unethical about getting rich off a non-profit!

But PM, when one writes books, makes cd's and dvd's that does not have to be under a nonprofit status.

Those items are made for profit....dont know if that makes a difference and do not know how much of their wealth comes from those items.

[StillStanding]

So you're against ABs letter too????????????????????????
Yes! I think it's an over-reaction! :runhills

[StillStanding]

But PM, when one writes books, makes cd's and dvd's that does not have to be under a nonprofit status.

Those items are made for profit....dont know if that makes a difference and do not know how much of their wealth comes from those items.

I would be interested to know if they run their book sales through the non-profit! If they pay taxes on their income from the books, I have no problem with that!

If you hear them say that they'll send you a book for a $30 donation, then they are running it through the non-profit!

[Thad]

Yes! I think it's an over-reaction! :runhills



I'm going to Email AB and tell him what you just said !!!!!!

[Elizabeth]

I would be interested to know if they run their book sales through the non-profit! If they pay taxes on their income from the books, I have no problem with that!

If you hear them say that they'll send you a book for a $30 donation, then they are running it through the non-profit!

That's how that loop hole works huh.

I just think this investigation could lead to others being investigated as well.

[chaotic_resolve]

Atlanta Bishop, I challenge you to come on back and face this accusation!!!! you need to address this last post sir !!!!!
Oh Thad . . . LoL Good grief. You're one funny dude.

Show me anywhere in my post that I accused AB of anything. LoL But you're right . . . I would like AB to explain his "sky is falling mentality" on this investigation and why he's joining himself and defending the likes of Creflo "show me the money" Dollar, White, Meyers, Hinne, etc.

Simply put, these people should be scrutinized because of their greedy lifestyle. They should be ashamed of riding the backs of the lower-class and preaching the damnable "gospel of prosperity." Sorry, but God calls us to be good stewards, and I don't see how He can be pleased with these greedy ministers using God as a way to get rich.

I would be interested to know if they run their book sales through the non-profit! If they pay taxes on their income from the books, I have no problem with that!

If you hear them say that they'll send you a book for a $30 donation, then they are running it through the non-profit!
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Exactly. It's funny to read the one's defend their lifestyle by stating they only used the money from their book deals, etc. You're right . . . if they use the scam: "Send a 'love offering' of $49.95 and you too can have my autographed book 'Dumb Sheep: How I've Made a Millionaire's Lifestyle Off of Stupid Christians,'" then absolutely they need to account for every dime spent of the advance bonus and whatever else they pull in from the book sales.

[Thad]

I just highlighted your last post and sent it to him via Email !!!!


LET"S HAVE WAR ! ! ! ! ! ! :bliss

[chaotic_resolve]

:hanky :hanky :hanky

:nuke

:hunter :drawguns

:muwahaha






:nahnah

:ursofunny

[Neck]

If the Government grants the non-profit status they should abide by the rules and laws.

Just as those of us file are private and business taxes and do so by following the rules and laws.

Should a ministry be able to walk alone?

They make themselves easy targets with the "Sow a seed message".

Then they show off their lavish lifestyle.

If this were a regular business many of these ministries would have them all going to jail for mail fraud.

I think that if the ministry is honorable then it should not have to worry.

It may make many fear the coming of the IRS suits.

Because maybe just maybe they have something to fear behind the alter...

[RevDWW]

I wonder if perhaps, maybe, by some slight chance God is allowing Senator Devil to bring this investigation about to clean up some of this stink'n mess?

[philjones]

What it boils down to,

Its just like Movie Stars, Music Stars and Sports Figures.

Its OUR FAULT!

We support these folks, buy there stuff, pay big prices for their images.

Then get mad at them for what WE have CREATED!!!


IT IS A SYMTOM OF OUR SOCIETY---PLUS plus...it is the AMERICAN Way no one can stop you from making money in America!

Jeanie,

do you see any difference in doing what you have described in Jesus name versus in the name of the NY Yankees or Hollywood?

I do.

[philjones]

But PM, when one writes books, makes cd's and dvd's that does not have to be under a nonprofit status.

Those items are made for profit....dont know if that makes a difference and do not know how much of their wealth comes from those items.

I am pretty sure that the royalties are a small part of their wealth. The majority of their wealth comes from gullible folks like my wife who is desperately seeking after God. She faithfully sends her little $20.00 a month to sister joyce. I am sure there 10s of thousands just like her who send 20 and much more a month to "support the ministry" of Sis. Joyce. You do the math and see if you could maybe afford the $11K clock or the $30K toliet? These people are beyond the pale. They are charlatans and have sold Jesus Christ to the average bidder. Sadly, with her opulent lifestyle considered, Joyce sends my wife a package EVERY MONTH asking for additional donations for this cause or that one! It is sick and since these folks are not governed by the Holy Ghost, they need some one to govern them!:ty2

[MrsMcD]

I would be interested to know if they run their book sales through the non-profit! If they pay taxes on their income from the books, I have no problem with that!

If you hear them say that they'll send you a book for a $30 donation, then they are running it through the non-profit!

How can buying a book be called a donation? I know it is because I have ordered from James Dobson's website and always wondered why it said donation when I was actually buying something. I don't think it is right for them to call it a donation. I don't see how they can get away with that.

[Monkeyman]

I am pretty sure that the royalties are a small part of their wealth. The majority of their wealth comes from gullible folks like my wife who is desperately seeking after God. She faithfully sends her little $20.00 a month to sister joyce. I am sure there 10s of thousands just like her who send 20 and much more a month to "support the ministry" of Sis. Joyce. You do the math and see if you could maybe afford the $11K clock or the $30K toliet? These people are beyond the pale. They are charlatans and have sold Jesus Christ to the average bidder. Sadly, with her opulent lifestyle considered, Joyce sends my wife a package EVERY MONTH asking for additional donations for this cause or that one! It is sick and since these folks are not governed by the Holy Ghost, they need some one to govern them!:ty2Good sir, YOU need to read my book, "Caveman 101" and put a stop to that $20 payment....J/K

These prosperity guys make me sick to my stomach...we don't see a lot of it around these parts but a couple of weeks ago, I was able to see one of their TV shows while in the States, I couldn't believe that I would see the day where ministry was all about wealth...theirs and their audience...unbelievable!!!

There is a song by Israel & New Breed that my pastor almost didn't allow us to sing (& he NEVER steps in) that had the lyrics, "...prosperity, It's a new season, coming to me" but then allowed it realizing we were not singing it to state promised wealth coming our way. Just living this new life, we have prospered!!!!

I have NO problem being investigated...if it will clean up the church, then so be it!!!

[Falla39]

How can buying a book be called a donation? I know it is because I have ordered from James Dobson's website and always wondered why it said donation when I was actually buying something. I don't think it is right for them to call it a donation. I don't see how they can get away with that.

In the past I have ordered items from some of these resources

and on the invoice it would show the estimated cost of the items

and then the reminder was the donation. Say I ordered a book and

sent a $15.00 donation. They would show the estimated cost of the

book at perhaps $9.00 and show the donation as $6.00. I don't see a

problem with this. Sometimes the books, etc. may have been donated

to the ministry.

Blessings,

Falla39

[MrsMcD]

In the past I have ordered items from some of these resources

and on the invoice it would show the estimated cost of the items

and then the reminder was the donation. Say I ordered a book and

sent a $15.00 donation. They would show the estimated cost of the

book at perhaps $9.00 and show the donation as $6.00. I don't see a

problem with this. Sometimes the books, etc. may have been donated

to the ministry.

Blessings,

Falla39

Oh, I have never noticed that. I don't see a problem with that either.

[Elizabeth]

I am pretty sure that the royalties are a small part of their wealth. The majority of their wealth comes from gullible folks like my wife who is desperately seeking after God. She faithfully sends her little $20.00 a month to sister joyce. I am sure there 10s of thousands just like her who send 20 and much more a month to "support the ministry" of Sis. Joyce. You do the math and see if you could maybe afford the $11K clock or the $30K toliet? These people are beyond the pale. They are charlatans and have sold Jesus Christ to the average bidder. Sadly, with her opulent lifestyle considered, Joyce sends my wife a package EVERY MONTH asking for additional donations for this cause or that one! It is sick and since these folks are not governed by the Holy Ghost, they need some one to govern them!:ty2

To me then they should lose theri non-profit status, its abuse.

[Thad]

**** ATTENTION ATLANTA BISHOP ***



You better get on here and Respond SOON or else you are going to be viewed as being Cowardly ! ! ! ! ! ! !



The folks are beginning to wonder if you are Skeeeerrrd!!!!

[bishopnl]

Far be it from me to defend the integrity of ministers living lavish lifestyles at the expense of naive Christians...

However, I'm going to chime in here. Perhaps the initial letter was a bit reactionary, but I agree with the overall point. Grassley and Congress have overstepped their constitutional authority and are violating the First Amendment. Further, this is another show by Congress that means nothing but raises their public image...just like when they dragged Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa before a Congressional committee and blathered on about steroids in baseball. This is just another example of Congress wasting time and money to get a few pats on the back and make themselves look good.

It's also a bit ironic that CONGRESS is dragging these preachers before committees over allegations of misspent money. I guess if any one group is qualified to know about mismanagement of money and defrauding the public, Congress has plenty of experts. I don't defend Creflo Dollar's Rolls Royce or Joyce Meyers million dollar home...but I'm not sure that it's Congress place to reprimand them...or that these committees will even do anything other than make Grassley look like a hero to those who hate rich televangelists. Congress pretending to have moral superiority over televangelists is a joke. And isn't it a bit odd that Grassley has SEVEN OFFICES but can't even send out a form letter to someone who calls and emails him?

[Elizabeth]

Far be it from me to defend the integrity of ministers living lavish lifestyles at the expense of naive Christians...

However, I'm going to chime in here. Perhaps the initial letter was a bit reactionary, but I agree with the overall point. Grassley and Congress have overstepped their constitutional authority and are violating the First Amendment. Further, this is another show by Congress that means nothing but raises their public image...just like when they dragged Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa before a Congressional committee and blathered on about steroids in baseball. This is just another example of Congress wasting time and money to get a few pats on the back and make themselves look good.

It's also a bit ironic that CONGRESS is dragging these preachers before committees over allegations of misspent money. I guess if any one group is qualified to know about mismanagement of money and defrauding the public, Congress has plenty of experts. I don't defend Creflo Dollar's Rolls Royce or Joyce Meyers million dollar home...but I'm not sure that it's Congress place to reprimand them...or that these committees will even do anything other than make Grassley look like a hero to those who hate rich televangelists. Congress pretending to have moral superiority over televangelists is a joke. And isn't it a bit odd that Grassley has SEVEN OFFICES but can't even send out a form letter to someone who calls and emails him?

great post bishop!

[dizzyde]

Good sir, YOU need to read my book, "Caveman 101" and put a stop to that $20 payment....J/K



FUNNY!!! :slaphappy

[MrsMcD]

Far be it from me to defend the integrity of ministers living lavish lifestyles at the expense of naive Christians...

However, I'm going to chime in here. Perhaps the initial letter was a bit reactionary, but I agree with the overall point. Grassley and Congress have overstepped their constitutional authority and are violating the First Amendment. Further, this is another show by Congress that means nothing but raises their public image...just like when they dragged Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa before a Congressional committee and blathered on about steroids in baseball. This is just another example of Congress wasting time and money to get a few pats on the back and make themselves look good.

It's also a bit ironic that CONGRESS is dragging these preachers before committees over allegations of misspent money. I guess if any one group is qualified to know about mismanagement of money and defrauding the public, Congress has plenty of experts. I don't defend Creflo Dollar's Rolls Royce or Joyce Meyers million dollar home...but I'm not sure that it's Congress place to reprimand them...or that these committees will even do anything other than make Grassley look like a hero to those who hate rich televangelists. Congress pretending to have moral superiority over televangelists is a joke. And isn't it a bit odd that Grassley has SEVEN OFFICES but can't even send out a form letter to someone who calls and emails him?

:thumbsup

[RevDWW]

At least he had the guts to say something, I think AB sees where all this stuff is leading.
Obviously he doesn't see where the "name it and claim it, blab it and grab it" crowd is leading, so why would I think he can see where Senate investigations are leading?

[Elizabeth]

Obviously he doesn't see where the "name it and claim it, blab it and grab it" crowd is leading, so why would I think he can see where Senate investigations are leading?

I guess you wouldn't, that is okay with me!

[StillStanding]

Does anyone in their right mind think that if Jesus himself was raising money to spread the gospel around the word, he would be driving around in a Rolls Royce, have a $5,000 pen in his pocket, fly around in his private Lear jet, and live in a multi-million dollar mansion?

Or.......would he live modest, and put the money given into the further spread of the gospel?

[RevDWW]

I guess you wouldn't, that is okay with me!

I understand the trepidation some have when the Government starts investigating, but I truly believe this is a good thing and very possibly a God thing!

I can't see how Jesus would ever endorse getting rich by selling the Gospel and it's blessings, especially to those that are poor. Most of the stuff these folks hawk are great big Ponzie/Pyramid schemes with God left holding the bag when things don't get paid out like advertised.

I don't ever recall reading where Jesus said anything against the Roman government. I wonder why that is?

[Thad]

Does anyone in their right mind think that if Jesus himself was raising money to spread the gospel around the word, he would be driving around in a Rolls Royce, have a $5,000 pen in his pocket, fly around in his private Lear jet, and live in a multi-million dollar mansion?

Or.......would he live modest, and put the money given into the further spread of the gospel?


accroding to Jesse Duplnatis,Jesus was a wealthy Man who had the best of everything of his time.

I forget how he came to this conclusion scriptually so don't ask :ursofunny

[RevDWW]

accroding to Jesse Duplnatis,Jesus was a wealthy Man who had the best of everything of his time.

I forget how he came to this conclusion scriptually so don't ask :ursofunny

Id that so? Then why he didn't have money to pay taxes and had to have Peter go catch a fish with a gold coin in his mouth?

[pelathais]

Does anyone in their right mind think that if Jesus himself was raising money to spread the gospel around the word, he would be driving around in a Rolls Royce, have a $5,000 pen in his pocket, fly around in his private Lear jet, and live in a multi-million dollar mansion?

Or.......would he live modest, and put the money given into the further spread of the gospel?
You bring up a real problem PM.

What Jesus really did was to give the money to a man He knew was a thief for "safe keeping."

[dizzyde]

Does anyone in their right mind think that if Jesus himself was raising money to spread the gospel around the word, he would be driving around in a Rolls Royce, have a $5,000 pen in his pocket, fly around in his private Lear jet, and live in a multi-million dollar mansion?

Or.......would he live modest, and put the money given into the further spread of the gospel?

Or gasp, dare I say it, touch the Holy Grail of Pentecost, drive 400 thousand dollar mobile homes. I just about die every year at Camp Meeting when I see these preachers driving in these mobile homes that cost more than the the average persons home. And this is beside the 4,000 (and up) square ft. homes they live in. Something is desperately wrong with that picture. I always thinks of the YEARS some missionaries have to deputize (sp?) to raise money to go to the foreign field and it just makes my head hurt.

[Elizabeth]

I understand the trepidation some have when the Government starts investigating, but I truly believe this is a good thing and very possibly a God thing!

I can't see how Jesus would ever endorse getting rich by selling the Gospel and it's blessings, especially to those that are poor. Most of the stuff these folks hawk are great big Ponzie/Pyramid schemes with God left holding the bag when things don't get paid out like advertised.

I don't ever recall reading where Jesus said anything against the Roman government. I wonder why that is?
I think most of us feel a bit indignant when we read of lavish lifestyles without any accountability especially when it doesnt remotely resembles the new testament Christian lifestyles.


You know what does one do though when you hear remarks like" Abraham was wealthy, King David and King Solomon" I dont agree with the example what is the response to that remark?

[Thad]

Id that so? Then why he didn't have money to pay taxes and had to have Peter go catch a fish with a gold coin in his mouth?


That was an test of faith ??? he said something about jesus having a robe made of a certain type of luxery fabric that in that time, it was only for the wealthy

[dizzyde]

I think most of us feel a bit indignant when we read of lavish lifestyles without any accountability especially when it doesnt remotely resembles the new testament Christian lifestyles.


You know what does one do though when you hear remarks like" Abraham was wealthy, King David and King Solomon" I dont agree with the example what is the response to that remark?

Well, for me, I would point out that those examples were OT and none of those men were charged with spreading the Gospel.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with living a comfortable lifestyle, but I don't see how anyone, much less a Christian can live an excessive lifestyle.

But then, I'm a little bit a crusader on this topic, it offends me morally, as a human being when I read stories about people like Bill Gates having three or four yachts! I mean seriously, I don't care how much you give to charity, if you have million dollar boats that sit in the water rotting, while children are starving to death, that is reprehensible.

Keep in mind, I'm talking from a humanistic standpoint. You can see how see people who are supposed to be spreading the Gospel, and are leading excessive lifestyles would push my nose out of joint! LOL!

[Elizabeth]

Well, for me, I would point out that those examples were OT and none of those men were charged with spreading the Gospel.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with living a comfortable lifestyle, but I don't see how anyone, much less a Christian can live an excessive lifestyle.

But then, I'm a little bit a crusader on this topic, it offends me morally, as a human being when I read stories about people like Bill Gates having three or four yachts! I mean seriously, I don't care how much you give to charity, if you have million dollar boats that sit in the water rotting, while children are starving to death, that is reprehensible.

Keep in mind, I'm talking from a humanistic standpoint. You can see how see people who are supposed to be spreading the Gospel, and are leading excessive lifestyles would push my nose out of joint! LOL!
This post makes sense!

The statement you just made is very profound!

Do you remember Schindler's List? He lamented that he did not liquidate more of his assets to "buy" one more soul, when it came down to it, people were more precious than gold!

[dizzyde]

This post makes sense!

The statement you just made is very profound!

Do you remember Schindler's List? He lamented that he did not liquidate more of his assets to "buy" one more soul, when it came down to it, people were more precious than gold!

Exactly! I worked at homeless shelter for a while, it really opened my eyes to what is going on in this country, under the surface. And we live in the land of prosperity!

It is the kids who get to me, they are defenseless and have no control over what is happening in their lives. You don't realize what a vicious cycle some of these people are living in, and how so little can mean so much.

I had my heart broken over and over again while I worked there. That is actually why I stopped, I couldn't handle the emotional side of it. I do what I can from the outside now, and I hope to go back and work there again soon, but at the time I had things going on in my own life and it was just too overwhelming.

There are a lot of hurting, broken people in this world, and to get caught up in lifestyles, and things, it doesn't make much sense to me. MAN, I AM TYPING WAY TO MUCH TODAY, I think I need a time-out!!! LOL!

[chaotic_resolve]

Far be it from me to defend the integrity of ministers living lavish lifestyles at the expense of naive Christians...

However, I'm going to chime in here. Perhaps the initial letter was a bit reactionary, but I agree with the overall point. Grassley and Congress have overstepped their constitutional authority and are violating the First Amendment. Further, this is another show by Congress that means nothing but raises their public image...just like when they dragged Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa before a Congressional committee and blathered on about steroids in baseball. This is just another example of Congress wasting time and money to get a few pats on the back and make themselves look good.

It's also a bit ironic that CONGRESS is dragging these preachers before committees over allegations of misspent money. I guess if any one group is qualified to know about mismanagement of money and defrauding the public, Congress has plenty of experts. I don't defend Creflo Dollar's Rolls Royce or Joyce Meyers million dollar home...but I'm not sure that it's Congress place to reprimand them...or that these committees will even do anything other than make Grassley look like a hero to those who hate rich televangelists. Congress pretending to have moral superiority over televangelists is a joke. And isn't it a bit odd that Grassley has SEVEN OFFICES but can't even send out a form letter to someone who calls and emails him?

1. Where do you get that Grassley and Congress are violation the First Amendment? That's a joke! No where and in no way is Grassley or Congress telling these people what they can or can't preach . . . this is about complaints of abuse of these ministers' non-profit, tax-exempt status.

2. I understand the irony of Congress and misappropriation of funds or mismanagement of funds . . . however, it is Congress' place to look into these accusations and determine if there needs to be a tightening of the non-profit, tax-exempt laws.

I believe they should tighten them up. The line's been blurred between what's used for the ministry and what's used for personal lifestyles.

The scare of Congress coming after every church is a knee-jerk over reaction. Nothing against AB or others, but I think many experienced just that . . . they heard a news blurb or read the story and freaked out thinking Congress was coming after churches or ministries. But if one took time to read Grassley's report or reasons . . . he's got good reason to look into this.

JMO

[Elizabeth]

Exactly! I worked at homeless shelter for a while, it really opened my eyes to what is going on in this country, under the surface. And we live in the land of prosperity!

It is the kids who get to me, they are defenseless and have no control over what is happening in their lives. You don't realize what a vicious cycle some of these people are living in, and how so little can mean so much.

I had my heart broken over and over again while I worked there. That is actually why I stopped, I couldn't handle the emotional side of it. I do what I can from the outside now, and I hope to go back and work there again soon, but at the time I had things going on in my own life and it was just too overwhelming.

There are a lot of hurting, broken people in this world, and to get caught up in lifestyles, and things, it doesn't make much sense to me. MAN, I AM TYPING WAY TO MUCH TODAY, I think I need a time-out!!! LOL!

Anything with kids messes me up! But you were doing biblical ministry imo-

[Praxeas]

Senator Chuck Grassley - The Enemy of Ministry
Pastors and Ministers
This is the face of The Enemy of Ministry



Dear Pastor and Christian Minister, Your rights as a Pastor, Minister, Evangelist or CEO of a Christian - Non-Profit Church or Organization is being threatened by the Enemy of Ministry - Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa. I have sent him many emails and have called his office many times in the last week and have not received one reply from him or anyone in his office.

Senator Grassley has launched an intensive investigation into the Christian Ministries of several High Profile Pastors and Ministries. He has sent demand letters to Bishop Eddie Long, Pastors Crefflo and Taffi Dollar, Pastor Benny Hinn, Joyce & Dave Myer, Pastor's Randy and Paula White and Kenneth and Gloria Copeland. If he can do this to six, (with others on the waiting list) he can do it to 60, then 600, then 6000. He has no right or power or jurisdiction to launch such an investigation. It is pure intimidation and blackmail for him or anyone to say, If you don't give me what I want, I will haul you before the senate for questioning. What a shame and a disgrace for a man that calls himself a Christian. We must stand together against these demands against Christian Ministers, Pastors and Churches.

Please write or phone Senator Grassley's offices. He has MANY offices at tax payer expense.
Please call and write and tell them you are against his investigation into the Christian Ministers and Churches and you want him to stop his demands. He needs to leave the investigation to the IRS and those that are responsible to investigate these Non-profit organizations. I think Mr. Grassley needs to be investigated for his extravagance in keeping seven offices and many employees at Tax Payer Expense! This man needs to apologize to the Pastors, Minister's and Churches of America for his role in harassing the ministry.

Here are Senator Grassley's offices:

Washington Office
135 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510-1501
(202) 224-3744


Grassley's Iowa Offices
Cedar Rapids
206 Federal Building
101 1st Street, S.E.
Cedar Rapids, IA 52401
(319) 363-6832
Fax: (319) 363-7179

Council Bluffs
307 Federal Building
8 South 6th Street
Council Bluffs, IA 51501
(712) 322-7103
Fax: (712) 322-7196


Davenport
131 West 3rd Street
Suite 180
Davenport, IA 52801
(563) 322-4331
Fax: (563) 322-8552

Des Moines
721 Federal Building
210 Walnut Street
Des Moines, IA 50309
(515) 288-1145
Fax: (515) 288-5097


Sioux City
120 Federal Building
320 6th Street
Sioux City, IA 51101
(712) 233-1860
Fax: (712) 233-1634

Waterloo
210 Waterloo Building
531 Commercial Street
Waterloo, IA 50701
(319) 232-6657
Fax: (319) 232-9965
I think there are law agencies already available to look into fraud and other issues...I don't see why we need federal law makers to get involved. Our nation is screwed up and they need to fix it...the last place to start is ministries and their finances

[bishopnl]

I understand the trepidation some have when the Government starts investigating, but I truly believe this is a good thing and very possibly a God thing!

I can't see how Jesus would ever endorse getting rich by selling the Gospel and it's blessings, especially to those that are poor. Most of the stuff these folks hawk are great big Ponzie/Pyramid schemes with God left holding the bag when things don't get paid out like advertised.

I don't ever recall reading where Jesus said anything against the Roman government. I wonder why that is?

Paul had a great deal to say about obedience to the law/authority. Seeing that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, what does that say when Congress chooses to flout it?

The fact is that Congress is restricted by the Constitution from either promoting or prohibiting religious practice. Dragging ministers into Congressional subcomittee's to chastise them for spending too much shows Grassley's complete disregard for the First Amendment.

And frankly, while I agree with the assessments concerning ministers living lavish lifestyles, I don't think God would use a most likely illegal method of operation in order to bring these ministers down. Irritation at ministers who exploit people for personal gain doesn't excuse Congress crossing the boundaries of law.

There were a lot of things Christ didn't address...political commentary being one of them. Absence of that in scripture doesn't suddenly make everything government does ok, nor does that mean that Christ approved of everything the Roman government did.

[RevDWW]

You know what does one do though when you hear remarks like" Abraham was wealthy, King David and King Solomon" I dont agree with the example what is the response to that remark?

I think it reasonable that God would allow A,D,& S to have wealth because it was to used to build an earthly kingdom, but the Kingdom of heaven is not establish with earthly riches. Jesus admonished us to lay up treasures in heaven and not on the earth.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Lord minds if we are comfortable as long as that comfort takes us away from His purpose.

[RevDWW]

Paul had a great deal to say about obedience to the law/authority. Seeing that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, what does that say when Congress chooses to flout it?

The fact is that Congress is restricted by the Constitution from either promoting or prohibiting religious practice. Dragging ministers into Congressional subcomittee's to chastise them for spending too much shows Grassley's complete disregard for the First Amendment.

And frankly, while I agree with the assessments concerning ministers living lavish lifestyles, I don't think God would use a most likely illegal method of operation in order to bring these ministers down. Irritation at ministers who exploit people for personal gain doesn't excuse Congress crossing the boundaries of law.

There were a lot of things Christ didn't address...political commentary being one of them. Absence of that in scripture doesn't suddenly make everything government does ok, nor does that mean that Christ approved of everything the Roman government did.

Yes they have a right to free speech and freedom of religion, but they don't have the right to fraudulently raise and spend money from the public. They are not being called into question for preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Can Congress levee any penalty against these charlatans? Doesn't Congress have a responsibility to investigate those that are victimizing the public so they might pass a law that will protect them?

[SDG]

If you're going to play the game ... play by the rules. It's not unreasonable to expect these ministries, like any non-for profit ... to be accountable ....

Just the other day ... AB was railing on/mocking prosperity preachers ...

Those that teach it, our giving the Church a black eye ....

It's time we get passionate about getting the Church back.

[Thad]

If you're going to play the game ... play by the rules. It's not unreasonablto expect these ministries, like any non-for profit ... to be accountable ....

Just the other day ... AB was railing on prosperity preachers ...

Those that teach it our giving the Church a black eye ....

It's time we get passionate about getting the Church back.



Atanta Bishop????




,



I challenge you to come out of hiding and respond to this !

[bishopnl]

1. Where do you get that Grassley and Congress are violation the First Amendment? That's a joke! No where and in no way is Grassley or Congress telling these people what they can or can't preach . . . this is about complaints of abuse of these ministers' non-profit, tax-exempt status.

The First amendment is designed to protect religion from the tentacles of government...either from the promotion of it, or the prohibition of it. Dragging ministers before Congressional subcommittees to explain the use of monies in their ministries, EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THEIR USAGE OF IT, is still a violation of the Constitution. Congress is not supposed to be the regulator of finances within the church. Period. Giving them that power (which essentially means giving them the power of the purse over the church) is clearly a violation of the First Amendment.

2. I understand the irony of Congress and misappropriation of funds or mismanagement of funds . . . however, it is Congress' place to look into these accusations and determine if there needs to be a tightening of the non-profit, tax-exempt laws.


Well, I don't think it's Congress' place to be "tightening" tax exempt laws on churches...I also think, that concerning tax exemption laws, other avenues are to be used for investigations...such as the IRS.

What blows me away is the amount of people who, out of personal dislike for these ministers, are rejoicing because Congress is dragging them before subcommittees. It's the same people who gripe when Congress regulates other areas of the First Amendment, such as the Fairness Doctrine and similar legislation which "regulates" freedom of speech.

Having the government involved in just about anything in the private sector usually doesn't work too well...but involving them in sketchy issues concerning the First Amendment is a horrid idea.

In my opinion, who cares if the lines been blurred on whether Creflo Dollar uses his personal jet for private or minsisterial use? People who give to his ministry should have enough common sense to investigate it before giving. If they don't, it's not the job of Big Daddy government or Joe Q. Taxpayer to fund a witchhunt to weed out all the bad apples who exploit people in the name of God. I've never given a dime to Dollar, Hinn, or any other TV evangelist, and it chaps me that my tax dollars are going to investigate these guys b/c some poor sucker bought into the line they were feeding.

[bishopnl]

Yes they have a right to free speech and freedom of religion, but they don't have the right to fraudulently raise and spend money from the public. They are not being called into question for preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Can Congress levee any penalty against these charlatans? Doesn't Congress have a responsibility to investigate those that are victimizing the public so they might pass a law that will protect them?

No. Congress doesn't have that right. Regulating finances in the church and deciding whether a pastor or boards decision concerning monies in the church is right or just is not the right of Congress. If people are afraid that Creflo Dollar is exploiting them, they have several options. They could not give money. They could sue him in claims court. Or, if he belongs to an organization of some sort and answers to a board or anyone in authority, they could launch an internal investigation.

[chaotic_resolve]

The First amendment is designed to protect religion from the tentacles of government...either from the promotion of it, or the prohibition of it. Dragging ministers before Congressional subcommittees to explain the use of monies in their ministries, EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THEIR USAGE OF IT, is still a violation of the Constitution. Congress is not supposed to be the regulator of finances within the church. Period. Giving them that power (which essentially means giving them the power of the purse over the church) is clearly a violation of the First Amendment.
Let's visit the First Amendment before it gets taken out of context quicker than some scriptures . . .

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
1. No law respecting the establishment of religion
2. No law prohibiting the free exercise thereof
3. No law abridging the freedom of speech or press
4. No law abridging the right of people to peaceably assemble or petition the government for a redress of grievances

Grassley and Congress' investigation is doing NONE of the above. There's nothing going on that's against the First Amendment. Congress isn't telling them they cannot exercise their freedom of religion; they're not keeping them from actively participating in ministry.

What they are doing . . . and what they have every right to do - BY LAW - is to govern the misuse or abuse of laws or statues that have been passed BY CONGRESS.

You say Congress isn't supposed to be a regulator of church finances, okay, I can agree with that . . . up until the church willfully requests the government to grant them certain protected status regarding those funds. At that point, the church is required to abide by the laws that the government (Congress) has passed.

The investigation not a violation of the Constitution. LoL :reaction




Well, I don't think it's Congress' place to be "tightening" tax exempt laws on churches...I also think, that concerning tax exemption laws, other avenues are to be used for investigations...such as the IRS.
Again, how are you not understanding this? Congress passed the laws and created the status in the first place and now you're saying they have no right to address the misuse and abuse or possibly revisit these codes to tighten up the loopholes.

We'll agree to disagree, though I'm pretty sure the Constitution gives the Congress (who wrote the laws) the ability to revisit and address the loopholes the law (the one Congress wrote, voted on and passed into law) provides and add amendments to tighten it up if need be.

So you don't "think" it's Congress' place . . . respectfully, it doesn't matter. The churches have requested the government give them protected non-profit, tax-exempt status - with that comes rules and regulations they must follow. If they break these rules, or do everything to tip-toe to the line . . . the ones who made the law in the first place have every right to question their misuse and abuse.




In my opinion, who cares if the lines been blurred on whether Creflo Dollar uses his personal jet for private or minsisterial use? People who give to his ministry should have enough common sense to investigate it before giving. If they don't, it's not the job of Big Daddy government or Joe Q. Taxpayer to fund a witchhunt to weed out all the bad apples who exploit people in the name of God. I've never given a dime to Dollar, Hinn, or any other TV evangelist, and it chaps me that my tax dollars are going to investigate these guys b/c some poor sucker bought into the line they were feeding.
That's pretty much like saying, "who cares if someone steals, etc." There are laws, rules, statutes, etc that have been created for non-profit, tax-exempt status.

[bishopnl]

Let's visit the First Amendment before it gets taken out of context quicker than some scriptures . . .

Let's do that.

First, you correctly cite the First Amendment as stating: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Then, you go on to state:

Congress isn't telling them they cannot exercise their freedom of religion; they're not keeping them from actively participating in ministry.

What they are doing . . . and what they have every right to do - BY LAW - is to govern the misuse or abuse of laws or statues that have been passed BY CONGRESS.

How can you not see the irony here? First you point out that Congress can pass no law regarding an establishment of religion...then say that they have the right, by law, to govern the abuse of laws or statutes concerning religion which they have passed.

So just to be clear, what you are stating is that Congress:
A. Has no power to pass laws respecting, regarding, or concerning an establishment of religion.
B. Does have the power to govern the abuse of laws which they have passed concerning an establishment (any establishment) of religion.

Can you not see how contradictory this is? And then I'm accused of taking the Constitution out of context. :confused:

By passing laws concerning taxation (or in this case, non-taxation) of churches, Congress has passed a law respecting an establishment of religion. Like a courthouse is an "establishment of law", a church or ministry is an "establishment of religion", and therefore, should not be subject to laws passed by Congress. If the church is to be regulated, it can be regulated by state laws, local laws, or by its own self governance. But Congress is not to interfere, either through taxation or any other law they might think to pass, with any establishment of religion, whether it's Creflo Dollar's church or your church. That they do and have done so for years doesn't make it right. And I do agree that churches are partially to blame for this as well...through incorporation and other areas they've sold themselves to the government. But the fact is that Congress and the federal government is supposed to be neither pro nor con towards religion in any aspect. They shouldn't tax it or declare it to be tax exempt. They shouldn't promote it or prohibit it. In the area of religion, Congress should be completely, 100% neutral.

Again, how are you not understanding this? Congress passed the laws and created the status in the first place and now you're saying they have no right to address the misuse and abuse or possibly revisit these codes to tighten up the loopholes.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand contradictory arguments. You can't say on one hand that Congress can't pass laws regarding an establishment of religion, and then slap them on the back for "addressing" the abuse of laws that they shouldn't have passed in the first place.

So you don't "think" it's Congress' place . . . respectfully, it doesn't matter. The churches have requested the government give them protected non-profit, tax-exempt status - with that comes rules and regulations they must follow. If they break these rules, or do everything to tip-toe to the line . . . the ones who made the law in the first place have every right to question their misuse and abuse.

Well, you're right in that what I think doesn't matter. I also think that Social Security is unconstitutional, that 90% of constitutional spending is unconstitutional, that abortion isn't a "constitutionally protected" right, that eminent domain doesn't mean the government can take your land and give it to another private citizen, and a lot of other things. So far, it doesn't seem to have made a dent, since the average citizen is woefully ignorant of most of what the Constitution actually says.

But as for them having "every right"...well, I think you're wrong. And I also think the only reason you're in favor of it is solely based on your dislike for these ministries and the fact that you see them as exploitative. But I'm even more suspicious and distrustful of the government than I am these ministers. At least Benny Hinn doesn't take a quarter of my paycheck every week. I have to be stupid enough to give it to him. On the other hand, Grassley and his Senator friends take my money and blow it on all kinds of things that I don't agree with. And I'm supposed to applaud b/c they're investigating someone else who's practicing a milder version of what they themselves do on a daily basis??? Forgive me for being skeptical...Grassley needs to shut up and fix his own house before trying to set Benny Hinn's in order. If he wants to start investigating corruption and mismanagement of funds, let them start doing some REAL oversight on government agencies not church ministries.

That's pretty much like saying, "who cares if someone steals, etc."

So your definition of stealing is when I give you money for you to use, with some vague promise of it being used to do something I agree with, and then you take the money and do what you want with it? THAT'S stealing? Even when I didn't take the time to investigate your credentials, your lifestyle, etc.? Even when I gave the money to you with nothing more than a good faith promise that you would do something good with it? That's not stealing. That's naivete.

Stealing is when the government takes money from my paycheck all life, gives it to someone else (or keeps it), and then when I die, takes the money I left and siphons off some more.

[Thad]

**MAJOR NEWS BULLETIN**


THIS JUST IN FROM ATLANTA BISHOP!!!!!!!!!!


Pick up your phone and call Senator Grassleys office and tell them you want HIM to know that you are totally against his unlawful inquiry into the Church and Christian Ministers. DO IT NOW or you might be the next on HIS HIT LIST!


202-224-3744 - You can make multiple calls every day
I would like Senator Grassley to know that I do NOT agree with him harassing the Christian ministers and I am asking him to withdraw his letters and apologize to the Christians and to the ministers about his unlawful and Unchristian letters to them.
If he can do this to six, he can do it to 60 then 600 then 6000.
As a Christian - I take this as a personal insult and want Senator Grassley to know he has offended the Christians of this nation and the members of these churches.

Sen. Chuck Grassley
135 Hart Senate Bldg.
Washington, DC
20510-1501
202-224-3744 - You can make multiple calls every day.

[stmatthew]

The smartest and best thing any non-profit ministry could do is get involved with a reputable group like the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (http://ecfa.org/Content.aspx?PageName=WhatIsECFA). This would stop many from looking at non profit ministries as scams.

[Monkeyman]

Does anyone in their right mind think that if Jesus himself was raising money to spread the gospel around the word, he would be driving around in a Rolls Royce, have a $5,000 pen in his pocket, fly around in his private Lear jet, and live in a multi-million dollar mansion?

Or.......would he live modest, and put the money given into the further spread of the gospel?You know, I have no problem with some man or woman who has invented new software, head giant corporations, or do well on Wall Street doing any of those things....but a preacher???? Or for that matter any saint of God, if they are doing these things they had better be putting MORE into the work of God.

[Stephanas]

Today's column by J. Lee Grady

In Defense of the Good Senator

Some Christians fear that the Senate’s probe of six charismatic ministries is a devilish conspiracy. Yet the man behind the investigation is a Bible-believing Christian.

Unless you’ve been on vacation in the South Pacific for the last two weeks, you probably know that Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa caused a commotion on Nov. 6 when he announced that the Senate Finance Committee, which he chairs, is investigating the financial operations of six charismatic mega-ministries.

Judging by the reaction from some sectors of the Christian public, you’d think Grassley had donned a black hood and launched another Spanish Inquisition. Some Christian leaders have openly suggested that Grassley is about to send IRS henchmen armed with clubs, hatchets and instruments of torture to every church in America.

“We must keep the government out of the church, or everything our founding fathers fought for is lost!” wrote Paul Crouch Jr. of the Trinity Broadcasting Network, in an open rebuttal of my Nov. 9 column about the investigation. Crouch also implied that Grassley’s probe is similar to Hitler’s persecution of Christians in 1930s Germany.

“Before we demonize Grassley, it might be worth looking at his own religious background.”



Huh? Why are we so paranoid? Just because a senator has asked for some documents to prove that these ministries are in compliance with the law? Before we demonize Grassley, it might be worth looking at his own religious background—and the reasons for his investigation. In an interview with him this week I learned some interesting facts:

1. Grassley is an outspoken evangelical Christian. “My faith is based on the promise of salvation in Jesus Christ found in John 3:16,” he told me. It’s refreshing to hear those words from anyone on Capitol Hill. Grassley was saved at age 11—“in January 1945,” he said—and he and his wife have attended the same Baptist church in Cedar Falls, Iowa, since 1954. The congregation is now called Prairie Lakes Church.

2. Grassley doesn’t believe in government intrusion of religion. The 74-year-old senator told me that his inquiry is strictly about compliance with the law, not about doctrine. On Prairie Lakes’ Web site, its leaders explain their view of the role of government: “We believe that every human being has direct relations with God, and is responsible to God alone in all matters of faith; that each church is independent and must be free from interference by any ecclesiastical or political authority; that therefore Church and State must be kept separate as having different functions, each fulfilling its duties free from dictation or patronage of the other.” That doesn’t sound like the spirit of Antichrist to me.

3. Grassley has a reputation for integrity. He recently conducted an investigation of several secular nonprofit organizations including the Smithsonian Institution and the American Red Cross. Those entities were not shut down because of his inquiry, but they did make internal changes in order to correct financial abuses and to comply with IRS rules. All Grassley wants is assurance that the six ministries are following the law. Is that evil?

4. Grassley is not basing his investigation on one person’s agenda. Some of Grassley’s critics believe that self-appointed ministry watchdog Ole Anthony (who has a dubious reputation in many Christian circles) is manipulating this inquiry from behind the scenes. But Grassley assured me that the complaints against Benny Hinn; Kenneth and Gloria Copeland; Creflo and Taffi Dollar; David and Joyce Meyer; Randy and Paula White; and Eddie Long are based on numerous public complaints, media reports and, in some cases, statements from whistle-blowers who were at one time associated with the ministries.

5. Grassley has some sound advice for evangelical churches. When I asked the senator what steps churches should take to strengthen their integrity, he immediately recommended that they join the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability—a Christian organization that provides a “seal of approval” for groups that follow normal accounting procedures. Grassley believes those handling public funds should subject themselves to added scrutiny because, he says, “you are a trustee of the people’s money.”

6. Grassley has some refreshingly old-fashioned views on ministry. He made this statement to reporters last week: “Jesus came into the city on a simple donkey. To what extent do you need a Rolls-Royce to expand the ministry of Jesus Christ?”

That’s an honest question from an honest man, and it deserves an honest answer.

[SDG]

**MAJOR NEWS BULLETIN**


THIS JUST IN FROM ATLANTA BISHOP!!!!!!!!!!


Pick up your phone and call Senator Grassleys office and tell them you want HIM to know that you are totally against his unlawful inquiry into the Church and Christian Ministers. DO IT NOW or you might be the next on HIS HIT LIST!


202-224-3744 - You can make multiple calls every day
I would like Senator Grassley to know that I do NOT agree with him harassing the Christian ministers and I am asking him to withdraw his letters and apologize to the Christians and to the ministers about his unlawful and Unchristian letters to them.
If he can do this to six, he can do it to 60 then 600 then 6000.
As a Christian - I take this as a personal insult and want Senator Grassley to know he has offended the Christians of this nation and the members of these churches.

Sen. Chuck Grassley
135 Hart Senate Bldg.
Washington, DC
20510-1501
202-224-3744 - You can make multiple calls every day.

I'm going to call and congratulate him ... for helping the church be more accountable.

[Steve Epley]

This is a constitutional matter if the government is allowed to monitor this area of church activity where will it end? Social issues like abortion-homosexuality-etc. After the government gets it's foot in the door everyone will be sorry. Look at what happen to the Soviet Union and other Communist countires. It was wisdom in the framers to keep the two separate.

[Esther]

I'm going to call and congratulate him ... for helping the church be more accountable.

Unfortunately you are very short sighted!

[StillStanding]

This is a constitutional matter if the government is allowed to monitor this area of church activity where will it end? Social issues like abortion-homosexuality-etc. After the government gets it's foot in the door everyone will be sorry. Look at what happen to the Soviet Union and other Communist countires. It was wisdom in the framers to keep the two separate.

Bro. Epley, I believe our congress, who passed the non-profit tax exempt law, has a right to question apparent abuses of the tax-exempt status.

When folks are getting rich and living extravagent lifestyles off of loop holes in the tax-exempt system, this needs to be investigated.

I have no problem if the extreemly wealthy are paying taxes on their business and personal income like everyone else. Maybe there needs to be a new law about paying taxes if income is over $200,000 for officers in a non-profit organization.

I don't think this is a witch hunt going after churches. They're just going after the church tax-exempt abusers.

Don't be mad at congress, as their protecting the citizens. Be mad at the ones that are abusing the system! They are the ones that might cause congress to have to pass new laws about churches.

[SDG]

Bro. Epley, I believe our congress, who passed the non-profit tax exempt law, has a right to question apparent abuses of the tax-exempt status.

When folks are getting rich and living extravagent lifestyles off of loop holes in the tax-exempt system, this needs to be investigated.

I have no problem if the extreemly wealthy are paying taxes on their business and personal income like everyone else. Maybe there needs to be a new law about paying taxes if income is over $200,000 for officers in a non-profit organization.

I don't think this is a witch hunt going after churches. They're just going after the church tax-exempt abusers.

Don't be mad at congress, as their protecting the citizens. Be mad at the ones that are abusing the system! They are the ones that might cause congress to have to pass new laws about churches.

Holla!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Epley, I believe our congress, who passed the non-profit tax exempt law, has a right to question apparent abuses of the tax-exempt status.

When folks are getting rich and living extravagent lifestyles off of loop holes in the tax-exempt system, this needs to be investigated.

I have no problem if the extreemly wealthy are paying taxes on their business and personal income like everyone else. Maybe there needs to be a new law about paying taxes if income is over $200,000 for officers in a non-profit organization.

I don't think this is a witch hunt going after churches. They're just going after the church tax-exempt abusers.

Don't be mad at congress, as their protecting the citizens. Be mad at the ones that are abusing the system! They are the ones that might cause congress to have to pass new laws about churches.

Pianoman I am certainly not justifying any abuse however their members KNOW the lifestyle they are living they flount it. Rev. Ike used to say he never wore a suit twice and they were expensive but his followers poured the money in. If the members don't care and in fact condone it what business is it of mine? They can punish them quite easily just quit giving. If someone feels they have been duped there are civil courts. But having the government that is filled with abuse and probably Grassley himself uses every tax loophole WE are all use is bad practice. I see how well the manage the nation's business I don't think I want them to manage the church's business.

[chaotic_resolve]

So just to be clear, what you are stating is that Congress:
A. Has no power to pass laws respecting, regarding, or concerning an establishment of religion.
B. Does have the power to govern the abuse of laws which they have passed concerning an establishment (any establishment) of religion.
Due respect, we'll have to agree to disagree. You simply don't understand the part where 1) non-profit, tax-exempt status does NOT establish nor is about any establishment of religion; 2) Churches or ministries who seek shelter under that non-profit, tax-exempt status MUST play by the rules that govern that status.

You seem to think that churches or ministries should be granted the non-profit, tax-exempt status with no rules and no regulations.

It's not contradictory what I'm saying. Again, if you seek a government-created status there are rules regulating being under that status . . . you must abide by the rules no matter if you're the UNITED WAY or a church or ministry.

Now, had these ministries not sought to shelter themselves under the non-profit, tax-exempt status I would agree with you and say Grassley and Congress have gone too far. But they wanted that status so they must play by the rules and follow the law or be subject to the penalties of that law.

[Michael Phelps]

Pianoman I am certainly not justifying any abuse however their members KNOW the lifestyle they are living they flount it. Rev. Ike used to say he never wore a suit twice and they were expensive but his followers poured the money in. If the members don't care and in fact condone it what business is it of mine? They can punish them quite easily just quit giving. If someone feels they have been duped there are civil courts. But having the government that is filled with abuse and probably Grassley himself uses every tax loophole WE are all use is bad practice. I see how well the manage the nation's business I don't think I want them to manage the church's business.

I'd have to agree with the Elder on this one, in one sense. I agree that since this country is built upon free enterprise, ministers should be able to make as much as their congregations will pay them.

However, in the other sense, I do believe that if a church is abusing the privilege granted them by a tax-free status, then they should have to abide by the same tax laws as other corporations.

I guess what I'm saying is, I feel strongly both ways!

[StillStanding]

I'd have to agree with the Elder on this one, in one sense. I agree that since this country is built upon free enterprise, ministers should be able to make as much as their congregations will pay them.

However, in the other sense, I do believe that if a church is abusing the privilege granted them by a tax-free status, then they should have to abide by the same tax laws as other corporations.

I guess what I'm saying is, I feel strongly both ways!

:ursofunny You need to run for office! :thumbsup

[bishopnl]

Due respect, we'll have to agree to disagree. You simply don't understand the part where 1) non-profit, tax-exempt status does NOT establish nor is about any establishment of religion; 2) Churches or ministries who seek shelter under that non-profit, tax-exempt status MUST play by the rules that govern that status.

I guess we will, because to me taxation laws, even if they are about turning churches into corporations or organizations that can seek exemptions from taxation, are not constitutional. Although I agree there's some validity in what you say concerning churches abiding by the rules, I still say that since the rules themselves are not truly lawful, it's hard for me to jump on board with those enforcing said rules.

And tax exempt status is about religious establishments, unless you are saying that a church is not a religious establishment.

You seem to think that churches or ministries should be granted the non-profit, tax-exempt status with no rules and no regulations.

I don't think the church should be "granted" anything. I think Congress is constitutionally prohibited from making laws regarding taxation or "exempting" churches from taxation (provided they play by the rules). And I do think the church should be under rules and regulations...just not being regulated by a corrupt group of senators.

But they wanted that status so they must play by the rules and follow the law or be subject to the penalties of that law.

I understand what you're saying. But since I think the rules and laws we are discussing aren't lawful in the first place, it's hard to get excited about the enforcement of them...even if the church has followed them.

Been an interesting discussion, but since we're probably not going to change each other's minds, I'm just gonna keep my fingers crossed and hope Congress gets theirs the same way they're trying to give it to these preachers.

[StillStanding]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Maybe we're not understanding the constitution.

The above passage means that congress can't establish a national religion. It doesn't mean that they shall make no law respecting a religious institution.

[bishopnl]

Maybe we're not understanding the constitution.

The above passage means that congress can't establish a national religion. It doesn't mean that they shall make no law respecting a religious institution.

I think that's where you're misunderstanding the Constitution.

The Constitution is pretty plain. It doesn't say, Congress shall establish no religion.

It says Congress shall make no law respecting (or in today's verbage, concerning or regarding) an establishment of religion. That means they cannot establish one themselves by law...nor can they make a law regarding ones that were already established. And since past Presidents, including Jefferson and Madison, took that to mean that they couldn't interfere with religious establishments already in existence, I don't see why it should be any different now. Religion is supposed to be an area where the federal government stays clear. According to your definition of the Constitution, Congress could pass just about any law regarding religious establishments, and as long as they weren't prohibiting someone from their freedom of worship or establishing a national religion, anything is fair game. If Congress passed a law saying all of Christ Church's members must appear yearly before a Congressional subcommittee to talk about the beliefs of the church, that's neither establishing a church nor prohibiting it's freedom of practice. Under your definition of the Constitution, that would be perfectly legal. Under mine, it would be unconstitutional.

And yes, I know it's an absurd hypothetical. But my point is just that under your definition, which doesn't fit the language of the Constitution, Congress could run all sorts of intereference in churches, and as long as it didn't prohibit their religious practices, it would be perfectly fine. For people who are so adamant in opposition against extra-Biblical interpetation, why treat interpetation of the Constitution any differently?

[StillStanding]

I think that's where you're misunderstanding the Constitution.

The Constitution is pretty plain. It doesn't say, Congress shall establish no religion.

It says Congress shall make no law respecting (or in today's verbage, concerning or regarding) an establishment of religion. That means they cannot establish one themselves by law...nor can they make a law regarding ones that were already established. And since past Presidents, including Jefferson and Madison, took that to mean that they couldn't interfere with religious establishments already in existence, I don't see why it should be any different now. Religion is supposed to be an area where the federal government stays clear. According to your definition of the Constitution, Congress could pass just about any law regarding religious establishments, and as long as they weren't prohibiting someone from their freedom of worship or establishing a national religion, anything is fair game. If Congress passed a law saying all of Christ Church's members must appear yearly before a Congressional subcommittee to talk about the beliefs of the church, that's neither establishing a church nor prohibiting it's freedom of practice. Under your definition of the Constitution, that would be perfectly legal. Under mine, it would be unconstitutional.

And yes, I know it's an absurd hypothetical. But my point is just that under your definition, which doesn't fit the language of the Constitution, Congress could run all sorts of intereference in churches, and as long as it didn't prohibit their religious practices, it would be perfectly fine. For people who are so adamant in opposition against extra-Biblical interpetation, why treat interpetation of the Constitution any differently?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The highlighted in blue part of the constitution controls the parts of your response that I highlighted! Our country has freedom of religion. Congress can't pressure or cause a religion to not exist.

[Thad]

Altanta Bishop Told me to tell Yall that he is SO HURT at many of you for the way you have attacked him and his efforts to protect the church from the onslought of the Government coming against the church .

some of you may owe him an aoplogy otherwise it may be long long time til he darkens the Door of this forum ! !

[Steve Epley]

Altanta Bishop Told me to tell Yall that he is SO HURT at many of you for the way you have attacked him and his efforts to protect the church from the onslought of the Government coming against the church .

some of you may owe him an aoplogy otherwise it may be long long time til he darkens the Door of this forum ! !

Tell him to quit being a big baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:stirpot:bliss:bo uquet:tease

[RevDWW]

1 Samuel 4:8 - 9 (KJV) 9 Be strong, and quit yourselves like men, O ye Philistines, that ye be not servants unto the Hebrews, as they have been to you: quit yourselves like men, and fight.

Put'm up...come on and put up your dukes......:tease

[Sam]

This is today's online editorial by J.L. Grady, editor of Charisma Magazine

In Defense of the Good Senator
Some Christians fear that the Senate’s probe of six charismatic ministries is a devilish conspiracy. Yet the man behind the investigation is a Bible-believing Christian.

Unless you’ve been on vacation in the South Pacific for the last two weeks, you probably know that Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa caused a commotion on Nov. 6 when he announced that the Senate Finance Committee, which he chairs, is investigating the financial operations of six charismatic mega-ministries.

Judging by the reaction from some sectors of the Christian public, you’d think Grassley had donned a black hood and launched another Spanish Inquisition. Some Christian leaders have openly suggested that Grassley is about to send IRS henchmen armed with clubs, hatchets and instruments of torture to every church in America.

“We must keep the government out of the church, or everything our founding fathers fought for is lost!” wrote Paul Crouch Jr. of the Trinity Broadcasting Network, in an open rebuttal of my Nov. 9 column about the investigation. Crouch also implied that Grassley’s probe is similar to Hitler’s persecution of Christians in 1930s Germany.

“Before we demonize Grassley, it might be worth looking at his own religious background.”

Huh? Why are we so paranoid? Just because a senator has asked for some documents to prove that these ministries are in compliance with the law? Before we demonize Grassley, it might be worth looking at his own religious background—and the reasons for his investigation. In an interview with him this week I learned some interesting facts:

1. Grassley is an outspoken evangelical Christian. “My faith is based on the promise of salvation in Jesus Christ found in John 3:16,” he told me. It’s refreshing to hear those words from anyone on Capitol Hill. Grassley was saved at age 11—“in January 1945,” he said—and he and his wife have attended the same Baptist church in Cedar Falls, Iowa, since 1954. The congregation is now called Prairie Lakes Church.

2. Grassley doesn’t believe in government intrusion of religion. The 74-year-old senator told me that his inquiry is strictly about compliance with the law, not about doctrine. On Prairie Lakes’ Web site, its leaders explain their view of the role of government: “We believe that every human being has direct relations with God, and is responsible to God alone in all matters of faith; that each church is independent and must be free from interference by any ecclesiastical or political authority; that therefore Church and State must be kept separate as having different functions, each fulfilling its duties free from dictation or patronage of the other.” That doesn’t sound like the spirit of Antichrist to me.

3. Grassley has a reputation for integrity. He recently conducted an investigation of several secular nonprofit organizations including the Smithsonian Institution and the American Red Cross. Those entities were not shut down because of his inquiry, but they did make internal changes in order to correct financial abuses and to comply with IRS rules. All Grassley wants is assurance that the six ministries are following the law. Is that evil?

4. Grassley is not basing his investigation on one person’s agenda. Some of Grassley’s critics believe that self-appointed ministry watchdog Ole Anthony (who has a dubious reputation in many Christian circles) is manipulating this inquiry from behind the scenes. But Grassley assured me that the complaints against Benny Hinn; Kenneth and Gloria Copeland; Creflo and Taffi Dollar; David and Joyce Meyer; Randy and Paula White; and Eddie Long are based on numerous public complaints, media reports and, in some cases, statements from whistle-blowers who were at one time associated with the ministries.

5. Grassley has some sound advice for evangelical churches. When I asked the senator what steps churches should take to strengthen their integrity, he immediately recommended that they join the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability—a Christian organization that provides a “seal of approval” for groups that follow normal accounting procedures. Grassley believes those handling public funds should subject themselves to added scrutiny because, he says, “you are a trustee of the people’s money.”

6. Grassley has some refreshingly old-fashioned views on ministry. He made this statement to reporters last week: “Jesus came into the city on a simple donkey. To what extent do you need a Rolls-Royce to expand the ministry of Jesus Christ?”

That’s an honest question from an honest man, and it deserves an honest answer.

[Steve Epley]

This is today's online editorial by J.L. Grady, editor of Charisma Magazine

In Defense of the Good Senator
Some Christians fear that the Senate’s probe of six charismatic ministries is a devilish conspiracy. Yet the man behind the investigation is a Bible-believing Christian.

Unless you’ve been on vacation in the South Pacific for the last two weeks, you probably know that Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa caused a commotion on Nov. 6 when he announced that the Senate Finance Committee, which he chairs, is investigating the financial operations of six charismatic mega-ministries.

Judging by the reaction from some sectors of the Christian public, you’d think Grassley had donned a black hood and launched another Spanish Inquisition. Some Christian leaders have openly suggested that Grassley is about to send IRS henchmen armed with clubs, hatchets and instruments of torture to every church in America.

“We must keep the government out of the church, or everything our founding fathers fought for is lost!” wrote Paul Crouch Jr. of the Trinity Broadcasting Network, in an open rebuttal of my Nov. 9 column about the investigation. Crouch also implied that Grassley’s probe is similar to Hitler’s persecution of Christians in 1930s Germany.

“Before we demonize Grassley, it might be worth looking at his own religious background.”

Huh? Why are we so paranoid? Just because a senator has asked for some documents to prove that these ministries are in compliance with the law? Before we demonize Grassley, it might be worth looking at his own religious background—and the reasons for his investigation. In an interview with him this week I learned some interesting facts:

1. Grassley is an outspoken evangelical Christian. “My faith is based on the promise of salvation in Jesus Christ found in John 3:16,” he told me. It’s refreshing to hear those words from anyone on Capitol Hill. Grassley was saved at age 11—“in January 1945,” he said—and he and his wife have attended the same Baptist church in Cedar Falls, Iowa, since 1954. The congregation is now called Prairie Lakes Church.

2. Grassley doesn’t believe in government intrusion of religion. The 74-year-old senator told me that his inquiry is strictly about compliance with the law, not about doctrine. On Prairie Lakes’ Web site, its leaders explain their view of the role of government: “We believe that every human being has direct relations with God, and is responsible to God alone in all matters of faith; that each church is independent and must be free from interference by any ecclesiastical or political authority; that therefore Church and State must be kept separate as having different functions, each fulfilling its duties free from dictation or patronage of the other.” That doesn’t sound like the spirit of Antichrist to me.

3. Grassley has a reputation for integrity. He recently conducted an investigation of several secular nonprofit organizations including the Smithsonian Institution and the American Red Cross. Those entities were not shut down because of his inquiry, but they did make internal changes in order to correct financial abuses and to comply with IRS rules. All Grassley wants is assurance that the six ministries are following the law. Is that evil?

4. Grassley is not basing his investigation on one person’s agenda. Some of Grassley’s critics believe that self-appointed ministry watchdog Ole Anthony (who has a dubious reputation in many Christian circles) is manipulating this inquiry from behind the scenes. But Grassley assured me that the complaints against Benny Hinn; Kenneth and Gloria Copeland; Creflo and Taffi Dollar; David and Joyce Meyer; Randy and Paula White; and Eddie Long are based on numerous public complaints, media reports and, in some cases, statements from whistle-blowers who were at one time associated with the ministries.

5. Grassley has some sound advice for evangelical churches. When I asked the senator what steps churches should take to strengthen their integrity, he immediately recommended that they join the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability—a Christian organization that provides a “seal of approval” for groups that follow normal accounting procedures. Grassley believes those handling public funds should subject themselves to added scrutiny because, he says, “you are a trustee of the people’s money.”

6. Grassley has some refreshingly old-fashioned views on ministry. He made this statement to reporters last week: “Jesus came into the city on a simple donkey. To what extent do you need a Rolls-Royce to expand the ministry of Jesus Christ?”

That’s an honest question from an honest man, and it deserves an honest answer.

Grassley MAY moderate his inquiry but once the door is open it will never be shut. And the next Senator might be Barney Frank and his inquiry would be on the mistreatment of homosexuals in certain churches. The goverment always gets BIGGER never smaller.

[RevDWW]

Grassley MAY moderate his inquiry but once the door is open it will never be shut. And the next Senator might be Barney Frank and his inquiry would be on the mistreatment of homosexuals in certain churches. The goverment always gets BIGGER never smaller.

Isn't there a difference in investigating misconduct and maybe outright fraud and questioning church doctrine?

[chaotic_resolve]

Altanta Bishop Told me to tell Yall that he is SO HURT at many of you for the way you have attacked him and his efforts to protect the church from the onslought of the Government coming against the church .

some of you may owe him an aoplogy otherwise it may be long long time til he darkens the Door of this forum ! !

Thad - who's "attacked" AB? LoL Nobody here has attacked anyone but the thieves and Fidy-cent fakers posing as ministers.

There's no "onslaught of the government coming against the church" from this investigation. Sure, I imagine years down the road the government may indeed crack down on religion, but it's not coming from this investigation.

I hope AB comes to look what's being said on his own and isn't just relying on the info you're giving him . . .

:tease

[Steve Epley]

Isn't there a difference in investigating misconduct and maybe outright fraud and questioning church doctrine?

I have NO-ZERO-NADA-ZILCH respect for these snake oil salesmen that are running con games so I have NO compassion for them. BUT once this door is open to pry into INTERNAL church affairs it will never be shut. Their members can leave or quit giving or take them to civil court. With the record the government has with their spending and stewardship of the nations finances do you really want Barney Frank-Pelosi-Kennedy-etc. meddling in your church affairs?????? You folks need to shallow your emotion and loathing for these religious crooks just a moment and think about the LONG TERM consequences this will produce. ALL of y'all are smarter than this.

[Praxeas]

I have NO-ZERO-NADA-ZILCH respect for these snake oil salesmen that are running con games so I have NO compassion for them. BUT once this door is open to pry into INTERNAL church affairs it will never be shut. Their members can leave or quit giving or take them to civil court. With the record the government has with their spending and stewardship of the nations finances do you really want Barney Frank-Pelosi-Kennedy-etc. meddling in your church affairs?????? You folks need to shallow your emotion and loathing for these religious crooks just a moment and think about the LONG TERM consequences this will produce. ALL of y'all are smarter than this.
Good point. These snake oil salesman in government vote themselves pay raises despite their poor performance. They get set for life after they leave. They get pay outs from companies that want them to vote their way and not our way.

They have this nation in the largest debt EVER

[bishopnl]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The highlighted in blue part of the constitution controls the parts of your response that I highlighted! Our country has freedom of religion. Congress can't pressure or cause a religion to not exist.

My response wasn't dealing with prohibitions on religion. It was dealing with government interference of any kind. Surely you can't say that requiring church members to appear before Congressional subcommittees is prohibiting your freedom of religion, as long as they are still allowing you the freedom to worship as you choose? Under your interpetation, they would still be within their rights. Under mine, they'd be acting unconstitutionally.

You folks need to shallow your emotion and loathing for these religious crooks just a moment and think about the LONG TERM consequences this will produce.

Exactly. Today's action is tomorrow's precedent.

[seguidordejesus]

Today's action is tomorrow's precedent.

Don't you mean "today's actor is tomorrow's president'? :D