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This last phrase should let us know that Paul is not speaking of long hair, but of a vail. There have been several quotes from history that lets us know the custom of proper women was to wear a vail. The question cannot be about cutting a women's hair, a women that prays or prophesies without a vail is the same as if she shaven. Only slaves and prostitutes had shaved or shorn hair.

6 For if the woman be not covered (have uncut hair), let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven(the type of mans hair cut), let her be covered.

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If a women will not cover with a vail, she might as well be shorn, but if it is a shame to be shorn she should wear a vail. Paul only uses hair as a reference to compare the importance of a women wearing a vail in relationship to the custom of that day.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover(have uncut hair) his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9-- Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves:is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered (have cut hair)?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair (uncut hair, allowed to grow), it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair (uncut hair, allowed to grow), it is a glory to her:for her hair is given her for a covering. 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

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Taking these last verses and saying Paul states that a women's long hair replaces the covering (vail) in a society in which a vail was deemed proper, is like saying a Christian women can run around naked, in a society that deems it improper to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan (Post 1414840)

Does verse 15 seem consistent when viewed with the context of the rest of the scriptures (especially vs. 6 which was actually another's p.o.v. originally in this thread.

The quotes is how I understand this verse and it makes sense. Also verse 16 could be used to debate the whole first 15 verses if someone wanted to. I believe Paul meant that the church holds no other custom of head covering, but this one given in the previous 15 verses.

P.S. I don't usually swap words in scripture in such a layout, but this is how I interpret it. Also I don't believe the sin is in the legalistics of all these things, but it is a matter of the heart between God and the recipient. (cut or uncut, male or female).

Instead of replacing covering to mean hair, whether long or cut. Which to me is adding to the meaning. It must stay as vail!

But the most telling thing about this whole thing is it does not matter. If it was a doctrine God intended to be for all time there would be not debate, because it would be spelled out else where through out scripture. But it is not!

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Originally Posted by good samaritan (Post 1414838)

As truth seeker stated earlier shorn and shaven "to him" meant cut down to the head.

I agree that is what it means.

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What if that is correct. You could then keep the consistency with vere 15. Shorn and shaven could then be applied not for the woman but to the man.

I am not following your last section here. Could you rephrase it? Thanks.

If it is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven(down to the head). It could be implied that is how a man should keep his hair (shorn or shaven down to the head). This is a regulation of the length a man should wear his hair. I copied and posted the entire vs 1-16 with my interpretation on it.

Paul only mentioned length of hair as a lesson from nature supporting his teaching that men ought to be uncovered and women ought to be covered when praying or prophesying.

Honestly, all the debate concerning length and trimming and whatnot reminds me the arguments found in the Talmud, with rabbis arguing over minutiae while missing the main, plain points of the Law.

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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer (Post 1414856)

Am I the only one that sees the inconsistency and adding to the scripture in the following rendition?

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered(have uncut hair), dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered (have cut hair) dishonoureth her head:

for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered (have uncut hair), let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven(the type of mans hair cut), let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover(have uncut hair) his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9-- Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves:is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered (have cut hair)?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair (uncut hair, allowed to grow), it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair (uncut hair, allowed to grow), it is a glory to her:for her hair is given her for a covering. 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Instead of replacing covering to mean hair, whether long or cut. Which to me is adding to the meaning. It must stay as vail!

But the most telling thing about this whole thing is it does not matter. If it was a doctrine God intended to be for all time there would be not debate, because it would be spelled out else where through out scripture. But it is not!

the first half is about veils

ESV
1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head,
1Co 11:5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.
1Co 11:6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.
1Co 11:7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.
1Co 11:8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man.
1Co 11:9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
1Co 11:10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
1Co 11:11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman;
1Co 11:12 for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.
1Co 11:13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered?
1Co 11:14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him,
1Co 11:15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

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Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1414951)

:thumbsup

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1414951)

the first half is about veils

ESV
1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head,
1Co 11:5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.
1Co 11:6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.
1Co 11:7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.
1Co 11:8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man.
1Co 11:9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
1Co 11:10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
1Co 11:11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman;
1Co 11:12 for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.
1Co 11:13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered?
1Co 11:14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him,
1Co 11:15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

NOPE!

At what point does Paul switch from teaching on the vail and turn to hair? The verse in bold? That cannot be for how can a wife be uncovered before she shaves or cuts her hair short? If Paul is speaking of hair in verse 6.
Verse 14-15 is simply Paul backing up his teaching that women should be covered with a vail by appealing to nature.

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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer (Post 1414980)

I agree. I thought thats what he meant.

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Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1414986)

I agree. I thought thats what he meant.

:throwrock

Was not sure exactly what he meant. Some times these discussions, can get hard to follow.

Does not Jewish men wear head coverings when they prophesy as well as the ladies? It is very likely that Paul covered his head with an external covering when he prayed. the covering he was addressing would then have to be long hair or he would be contradicting himself. B.T.W. if it was a veil then that is what we should be teaching our ladies to do.