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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encryptus (Post 494992)

The questions posed will be answered as an individual according to that individual's view of Calvinism.

Foreknowledge vs Predestined:

Free will vs puppet in a play.

Yeah, why not answer them then?

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

Also Dan

It seems that you have been studying a little of R C Sproul.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkstokes (Post 494998)

Also Dan

It seems that you have been studying a little of R C Sproul.

No ... I haven't read any of his stuff in-depth...

I haven't formulated anything on this definitively ... although I am in the Arminian camp

Simply... this discussion was sparked by the words of this preacher .... and some quotes I found on the net.

Some things are simply exercises to see how far our faith can stretch ...

There are holes in many of the views of Judas role in the Gospels ... even the more traditional view.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

I personally believe that predestination/free will is like the debate of dualism/materialism. They are debates that have no final conclusion. One can always find something wrong with either side.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

It was foreordained that Jesus was to be betrayed. Someone had to do it, but I do NOT think Judas was foreordained he fell by transgression Acts 1:25.
We know he became a thief Jn.12:9. Whatever his motives were Judas failed and since he failed he became the one ordained to fulfil this prophecy. Like God raising up Pharoah some sees that as predestination unto reprobation however God raising Pharoah up did NOT make him evil he was already evil and unrepented and God need such as him and used him. Judas was NOT born to betray Jesus or predestined to. Did God know he would certainly He is Omniscience.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 495034)

A very sound explanation Elder.

One poster on the topic adds:

Quote:

Its true that Jesus' Death was part of Gods plan for the salvation of mankind, as was prophesied in the Old Testament, however Judas' part changed nothing.

When the soldiers came to the garden of Gesamane to arrest Jesus, he asked them "whom do you seek', to which they answered "Jesus of Nazareth".

Jesus replied "I am he" Jesus had identified himself to the soldiers!

If Judas did nothing at all, the end result would have been the same. Judas, hoping for a greater reward from the Pharisees, had to do something to show that he was betraying Christ, but lacked the courage to openly denounce Christ in front of his followers, so he did the whole "traitors kiss" thing hoping to fool Christ's followers, but, in fact, he fooled no-one.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 495043)

A very sound explanation Elder.

One poster on the topic adds:

Dan I think some folks want this to be real mystical but to me it is like this in a carnal example sense you are more disposed to do computer stuff you get chosen not by foreordination but in foreordination someone with computer skills are need you are available thus you get the foreordained job. The job NOT the person is foreordained.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 494936)

And the questions I bring, not pretending to have all the answers, ... before you are:

1. If the Judas' role in the Gospels was pre-ordained prophetically ... was it God's will for Judas to hand Jesus over? How does one reconcile this with free will?

My take on predestination is that things are predestined by God according to His foreknowledge of our choices. If we choose a certain way to live then God directs our paths according to bring about His justice and to maintain His law of reaping and sowing.

We know that from before the foundation of the world, the Lamb was slain. Before anything was created God knew the end of the whole matter. I'm not sure of the particulars, but I'm sure we have a free will because God is just and impartial. With this presupposition, God saw Judas BETRAY (kick up his heel against, was paid for turning Jesus over to the authorities) and ordained that it indeed would happen and nothing could then stop it. I don't think it is God's will for anyone to sin or disobey Him.

Gotta go. Later. :)

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 495092)

Interesting perspective ... sis.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes