Apostolic Friends Forum - Another Look at Grace

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Re: Another Look at Grace

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1259300)

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 1 Peter 5:5

Here seems to be a condition for grace so it must not mean his favor is "unmerited".

This sounds confusing. The word "charis" the Greek for what we call "unmerited favor" actually means FAVOR without the "unmerited" part.

We grow in grace because as Gods FAVOR comes to us in the form of answered prayers, leadings of the Spirit, or other manifestations of his personal reality our faith grows.

Grace provides PROTECTION from what? Gods displeasure against sin?
It would be interesting to know what is meant by this.

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound ? 2 God forbid . How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ? Romans 6:1-2

Paul teaches from the time we are baptized into Christ we are dead to sin. We cannot grow as a Christian while there is sin in our lives.

1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby : 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 1 Peter 2:1-3

We grow when we lay aside sin not while we continue in it.

Again confususion. Grace replaces WHAT LIST OF RULES? It actually replaces the law of Moses. It is not opposed to the commandments of Christ nor the need to know and study them. One might get the impression Christs commandments need to be taught or studied.

Actually once one is baptized the next step is to teach ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo , I am with you alway , even unto the end of the world. Matt. 28:19-20

We would really need an understanding of what the writer means by self righteousness/condemnation and legalism. In todays Church world those terms are often used to describe practically anyone who is trying to live and teach Christs commands.

The preaching of grace does draw people to Christ when understood as "favor". Meaning Christ would give blessing to his children.

And who is it that is preaching self righteousness today? Condemnation? How does the writer define it? Is he saying the many teachings of scripture concerning the judgment of God have no meaning?

While I understand grace is a vast topic and cannot be fully understood by a few paragraphs I find this teaching to incomplete in itself to school a young convert with.

This is a good post, MTD. Lots of questions that need answering. :thumbsup

Re: Another Look at Grace

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Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1259372)

Those who demand a legalistic form of "perfection" fail to realize that it often took them years and years to get to where they are in sanctification. Thus... according to their own logic... they were unsaved during all that time.

Sanctification is the process of growing more Christlike through the power of the Holy Ghost... under the protection of and assurance of grace.

Who are those who demand a "legalistic form of perfection"?

Is that the same thing as just quoting the things Jesus said? The things the apostles said? If it is would that not be counting Christ and the apostles as "legalists"?

What words is the legalist using that makes him so false? What does he say that he should not be saying in the new age Christian circles to be counted as a mature Christian?

Re: Another Look at Grace

One thing for sure is that the law cant bring perfection.

Re: Another Look at Grace

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Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1259492)

One thing for sure is that the law cant bring perfection.

And Im not aware of anyone in this time saying it can.

Re: Another Look at Grace

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1259475)

What words is the legalist using that makes him so false? What does he say that he should not be saying in the new age Christian circles to be counted as a mature Christian?

I believe that a mature Christian stops witnessing, and becomes a witness; over making proclamations at people in an attempt to convert them. One can do great just volunteering at the soup kitchen or whatever, 30-40 hours a week, and getting their needs met in alternative ways. No paycheck.

Re: Another Look at Grace

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1259475)

Michael, why are you defending legalism if you're not a legalist?

It's a spirit.

Obedience to Christ's teachings increases as one learns about them and surrenders to them. This is the process of sanctification. It's not to earn salvation. It's to perfect those who are already saved by an amazing grace.

Re: Another Look at Grace

Im not defending legalism. What Im doing is trying to get an answer to what it means to the person who started the thread.

Today many people call you a "legalist" if you teach and follow the commandments of Christ. To Christ this is normal obedience, doing his will.

Those who have corrupted grace call such a person "a legalist".

I don't believe in reducing Gods grace down to a "concept."

To men grace means if you sin your still ok because God loves you.

The truth is grace is GODS FAVOR to a person. Its personal rather than conceptual.

Re: Another Look at Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1259711)

Im not defending legalism. What Im doing is trying to get an answer to what it means to the person who started the thread.

That's fair.

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Today many people call you a "legalist" if you teach and follow the commandments of Christ. To Christ this is normal obedience, doing his will.

True. Here's how I see it. If one wishes to add traditional little rules to Christian living and demand they must be followed to be saved, that's legalism. If someone takes the Commandments of either the OT or the NT (or any combination thereof) and demand that one must obey them to be saved, that's legalism.

Now, please understand. I'm not saying a Christian doesn't have to obey commandments. I'm saying that a Christian is "saved" by responding to God's grace (faith, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost infilling). Now, once saved, the Christian must grow in sanctification. The Christian becomes sanctified as they surrender to the teachings of Scripture. Should they refuse to obey the commandments of Scripture, they are failing in their sanctification. God is patient and long suffering towards the saint who is coming to grips with sanctification. However, sin has a way of turning the heart of the believer away from God. If a believer continues in sin... God will begin to send disciplinary warnings and judgments. If the believer continues to disobey they can be cut off. So, I do believe that a believer can disobey and be lost. However, I believe it takes a lot to rip us out of the hands of grace.

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Those who have corrupted grace call such a person "a legalist".

Some do.

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I don't believe in reducing Gods grace down to a "concept."

Amen. It's not a concept. It's a reality to be reckoned.

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To men grace means if you sin your still ok because God loves you.

Not true. God even loves those who will be cast into Hell. God loves because it is His nature, He IS love. Men experience grace in relation to sin not merely because of God's love. But because out of God's love, God chose to pay the ultimate price for the individual's sin. The sin has already been punished and paid for. Jesus took that punishment and paid for it with an agonizing death. It's no light matter. For the one who takes grace seriously, not reckoning one's sins as being paid in full is essentially neglecting the cross and saying what Jesus did just wasn't good enough.

Quote:

The truth is grace is GODS FAVOR to a person. Its personal rather than conceptual.

So why criticize those who personally experience God's favor? Because it only comes to us because of the cross. Jesus died for our sins. They are paid for. Now, let us move on into sanctification. And every believer will be rewarded for their works. Rather they be good or bad. And some will be saved yet so as by fire.

Re: Another Look at Grace

Michael,

Quick question: Did Jesus suffer and die for your sins? Yes or no?