Apostolic Friends Forum - Does Jesus have a child?

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Re: Does Jesus have a child?

I hear ya, Brother Blume! God is not restricted. :-)

I like the table and chair illustration btw.

Re: Does Jesus have a child?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkBelosa (Post 1344780)

I hear ya, Brother Blume! God is not restricted. :-)

I like the table and chair illustration btw.

:thumbsup

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Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1344749)

The whole problem i see with all these questions is that people are throwing what is a dilemma to human beings due to our limited faculties, but is not a limitation for God who is GOD. God is not limited to the status of a creature that can only do certain things and no more.

It always amazes me how this is such an overlooked issue.

To us, being our own child is impossible! It can only be an imagined situation from an unhealthy mind that cannot reason properly. And in reality it is not real at all. And that's why people give all these answers that God is schizoid if oneness is true. lol

Our human personhood does not have the ability to manifest in a genuine manner as a human being as though it was a SON to us.... we become our own son. But God is not restricted like that. God is not a human being. lol. FOR THE TENTH TIME God is not a human being with restrictions. He manifested as a human being but his starting point was GOD, unlike us who cannot manifest as another human because we can only but start to do anything from the beginning of being human, and that simply disallows for us to do what God can do.

So, God, who can do what we cannot in untold millions of areas, manifested Himself as the SON OF GOD. From THAT perspective of HIS PERSON, the person of His son being one with that of God, HE IS HIS OWN SON. But from the perspective of his existence as God and the manifestation of His person as a human being, God is not a human being as per GODHOOD any more than the humanity of the Son of God is deity. Humanity is not deity. It never was nor ever can be. Humanity and Godhood are forever distinct. So, in regards to His human manifestation contrasted from His Deity, He is not His own Son. But from the perspective of the common person in GOD (who can do far more than we can), and SON OF GOD, He IS His own Son.

It's like saying that if I can turn myself into a table and a chair at the same time, the table is not the chair, but in the sense that I turned myself into both of those things, and the subject is ME, then the table is the chair.

Just because we can conceive of God doing a thing...it doesn't mean He did it. God could be manifest in every major religion too. Some claim the same divine essence in Jesus is found in Buddha.

My point is...instead of imagining what God could do...let's take Christ's own description of Oneness into account.

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

If I say that the Father and the man, Christ Jesus, are one... That He is "in" the Father and the Father "in" Him... That this oneness of being is so complete that to see one is to see the other, to hear one, is to hear the other... That it is the Father who dwelleth in the very being of the man, Christ Jesus, that has done Christ's works...Why isn't that sufficient? Why imaginatively postulate how Jesus is His own Son? It's illogical and unbiblical. It's like arguing that with God three divine persons can be one God. Again, unbiblical and illogical. By this logic let's add the Seven Spirits of God in the Revelation and claim they are distinct divine persons. It's not an issue of what we can imagine God doing to reconcile Scripture with our fanciful theories. It's about believing in Christ's own testimony about His union with the Father and even being willing to use His own words to describe this oneness.

Re: Does Jesus have a child?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1344821)

Of course we take what the bible said about One God, and not a whim of our imagination. The word PERSON was in existence in the Greek as we find in Hebrews and elsewhere. But my point is that the bible never said Jesus was a PERSON distinct from the Father as a PERSON. Never. So why demand it is the case?

Quote:

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

But that is NOT a description of the Oneness in regards to the Godhead. Yes, there is a DIFFERENT Oneness of God and His Son like a man and a wife being one. I agree with you here. But when it comes to Godhead theology, THAT UNITY of two oneness is not the oneness after which the theology Oneness Godhead teaching is about. It is about one person comprising the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Quote:

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)[/Indent]
If I say that the Father and the man, Christ Jesus, are one... That He is "in" the Father and the Father "in" Him... That this oneness of being is so complete that to see one is to see the other, to hear one, is to hear the other... That it is the Father who dwelleth in the very being of the man, Christ Jesus, that has done Christ's works...Why isn't that sufficient?

All of that is true, but it is a different oneness than the issue we are dealing with at hand.

That is the skirting issue, and not the actual issue we are discussing, I think.

Oneness is that of ONE PERSON alone between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And until you stop throwing limitations of man onto God you will never be able to see the point. Trinitarianism and your-ism both come from the perspective of interpreting God's nature on the basis of human interaction with human. Jesus spoke as the Father when He said he IS before Abraham. That was no grammatical mistake in the writing. Jesus said He is our God and we are His sons in Rev 21:7. TO say this concept about a HUMAN PERSON distinct in Jesus from the Father's person is to say what the bible never once stated, and the language was available for the writers to say that if it were the case.

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Why imaginatively postulate how Jesus is His own Son? It's illogical and unbiblical..

I disagree. It is the only proper explanation for what the bible said about God being one. I would not base my theology on titles we use for terms in grammar. The BIBLE never once said God was more than one person. The bottom line is the Bible never said God was more than one person anywhere. And if that were the case, with the bible's silence on that statement, then we have one huge gaping hole in the Word.

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It's like arguing that with God three divine persons can be one God. Again, unbiblical and illogical. By this logic let's add the Seven Spirits of God in the Revelation and claim they are distinct divine persons. It's not an issue of what we can imagine God doing to reconcile Scripture with our fanciful theories. It's about believing in Christ's own testimony about His union with the Father and even being willing to use His own words to describe this oneness.

No, it's about letting the bible restrict our terms and descriptions of God by what it said about the issue itself. And it never said anything about more than one person. Sorry. If you used ONLY THE TERMS THE BIBLE USED, you could never say God was two persons in the time of Christ's life on earth in mortal flesh. My thoughts, anyway. :thumbsup

Re: Does Jesus have a child?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1344823)

Notice how throughout your entire post you essentially agreed to the spiritual realities I presented. However, you begin to digress into the theoretical as you discuss "Oneness" as "Oneness theologians" of the 20th century have defined it.

The Bible speaks of the relationship between Father and Son. Love between the Father and the Son. Conversation between the Father and the Son. The ontological shared being of between the Father and the Son. Now, I'm not a rocket scientist... but I know that God used this relationship to reveal Himself in a human being, the man Jesus Christ. Why deny His unique and distinct "human" personhood?

I'll repeat my earlier statement...

If I say that the Father and the man, Christ Jesus, are one... That He is "in" the Father and the Father "in" Him... That this oneness of being is so complete that to see one is to see the other, to hear one, is to hear the other... That it is the Father who dwelleth in the very being of the man, Christ Jesus, that has done Christ's works...Why isn't that sufficient?

These are the very terms used by Jesus Himself to describe His Oneness with the Father. Why are these terms to be rejected?

Re: Does Jesus have a child?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1344852)

Not so. You just quoted me saying to stick to the terms the Bible itself uses. Let's not digress from THAT.

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The Bible speaks of the relationship between Father and Son. Love between the Father and the Son. Conversation between the Father and the Son. The ontological shared being of between the Father and the Son. Now, I'm not a rocket scientist... but I know that God used this relationship to reveal Himself in a human being, the man Jesus Christ. Why deny His unique and distinct "human" personhood?

Why use PERSONHOOD in this sense when the bible doesn't? Let's stick to biblical terms. you're using 20th century trinitarian terms, brother.

Quote:

I'll repeat my earlier statement...

If I say that the Father and the man, Christ Jesus, are one... That He is "in" the Father and the Father "in" Him... That this oneness of being is so complete that to see one is to see the other, to hear one, is to hear the other... That it is the Father who dwelleth in the very being of the man, Christ Jesus, that has done Christ's works...Why isn't that sufficient?

These are the very terms used by Jesus Himself to describe His Oneness with the Father. Why are these terms to be rejected?

I'll repeat what I told you in response to that.

But that is not the same oneness that we are really talking about. I already said oneness that proposes ONE COMMON PERSON between Father and Son ALSO sees the unity described in John 14 that is ANOTHER sort of oneness as in unity of purpose. But the oneness we are dealing with is apart from that.

Re: Does Jesus have a child?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1344719)

Does Jesus have a child?

Yes I am His child.:thumbsup

Re: Does Jesus have a child?

I thought it was theologically correct to look at Jesus as my oldest brother, "joint heir" language of the Apostle Paul.

Re: Does Jesus have a child?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson (Post 1344897)

I thought it was theologically correct to look at Jesus as my oldest brother, "joint heir" language of the Apostle Paul.

That is true, according to his Sonship, as well as our Father according to Rev 21:7.

Re: Does Jesus have a child?

Question: what did Jesus mean when he said in prayer to God that he was going to the Father?