Apostolic Friends Forum - Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

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- - Do we serve a "gotchya!" God? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=20398)

LUKE2447

11-19-2008 01:17 PM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeatlast (Post 634853)

Not wanting to argue either my friend, just answering your question.

But you miised my point about Mk 16. It's great that you cast out a devil.

My point was, you are using this as a proof text that ALL must speak in tongues.

My point is, if it applies to tongues it also must be applied in the same fassion to casting out devils, handling snakes, drinking poison, etc

If this verse menas every christian will speak in tongues, then it alaso mean if you have not done all the other things listed as signs following that you are lost.

I spose that is OK with OP's as we have never been a group that demanded consistancy in interpeting scripture.

Acts clearly shows the Apostles expected to see the manifested presence of the HS. As I might ask when do you know you have received the HS that would fall in concert with what happened in Acts 19 and Acts 10?

LUKE2447

11-19-2008 01:22 PM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by My Own Eyes (Post 634992)

According to my old beliefs they would both be in hell. It makes me so sad when I think of the fear that I used to live in. I lived on this performance treadmill, demanding perfection in myself, and as I was woefully inadequate my spiritual walk tended to go back and forth between me being afraid that God would catch me in a weak moment and I would end up and hell, and railing at God for His impossible demands.

It's no surprise to me that many people reach a point where they decide that as hell is inevitable, they might as well do what they will.

I myself was fortunate to come to the conclusion that either God was in fact the horrible being I had come to see Him as (in which case I wanted no part of him) or that I in fact had no idea who God was at all (in which case I needed to change my focus from trying to attain perfection through works, and instead focus on that search).

So do you believe in OSAS or just really hard to lose salvation?

What would your thoughts be of.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

among a few...

Either you are faithful or not. Pretty simple!

freeatlast

11-19-2008 01:27 PM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447 (Post 634993)

Acts clearly shows the Apostles expected to see the manifested presence of the HS. As I might ask when do you know you have received the HS that would fall in concert with what happened in Acts 19 and Acts 10?

Expected??? Shoot, I think it says they were astonished that it happened.

They were not at all expecting what had happened to them 10 years ago to happen to the household of Cornelius

Amazed / Astonished.....NOT expecting. could be that they had not seen anything like this since it happened ten years ago on the day of pentecost.

Rhoni

11-19-2008 01:37 PM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 634464)

The one-step/three-step (among many others over the years) has made me ask this question.

Do we serve a "Gotchya!" God?

A godly man who was officially saved as a young teen and led a godly life, raised a godly family, always attended church and gave selflessly, strong and gentle in his demeanor, quick to forgive and slow to anger, and someone who has effected countless lives for the better.

Now, at age 60, he is driving home from the hardware store (he IS a practiced handy man after all) and someone cuts him off. He is in a hurry and says a curse word (in his head only since he won't actually utter it). 3 seconds later, another car broadsides him and he enters eternity within minutes as a result of the trauma.

Many who proclaim themselves to be strict "three steppers" would proclaim this a great tragedy since he is now roasting in Hell in endless torment since he died with unrepentant sin in his life. (I single out three steppers since I have found over the years that their view point tends to more often than not, lead to this idea of needing to die sinless in order to be truly saved.)

Another man comes to the breaking point in his life and cries out to God for forgiveness and "salvation". He has heard about baptism but doesn't understand its importance. All he knows is that everyone seems to be rushing him to have it done the very night he cried at the alter. The next evening, he too is in a car accident.

The funeral is not a joyous event as a great sadness lingers and many shake their heads knowing that he is now in torment due to having been killed prior to being baptized. (The fact that he has not spoken in tongues to their knowledge only adds to the sorrow of the situation.)
His story will be told for years to come to ALL new converts as a lesson of what can happen if you withhold being baptized.

So what God DO we serve?

Randy,

I think that those brought up in the ranks of religiosity have a warped sense of God and that He waits until we are down to take us out. That is not the God of mercy and grace that died for us when we were sinners.

God sees us through the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

When I had a near fatal car accident in 1991; the thougths of some was that God was punishing me for the sin in my life at the time. I never saw it that way. I saw it as the mercy of God to stop me long enough to get my head together and set my path right.

Some tried using the car accident to manipulate and control me into doing what they thought I should do out of gratitude to God, but what they wanted and what God wanted from me,a nd from them was totally different.

If our earthly father desires to give good gifts to his children - how much more does our Heavenly father desire to give us the kingdom? Just like we don't discard our children when they do wrong , but wait for them to come to us for help and forgiveness...God is so much more the loving parent that takes our hurts and fears, and yes - even sins - and covers them with His blood. He paid the complete price for our sins and loves us beyond human reason.

Blessings, Rhoni

P.S. The plan of salvation was fulfilled In Christ Jesus and all the steps we espouse cannot save us...it just gives those steeped in religiosity the go ahead to add another step. Jesus took the steps needed to save us...all the way up Golgotha's hill.

My Own Eyes

11-19-2008 01:42 PM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447 (Post 635006)

I wish that it were that simple.

It's been a long dark road for me. Many times I almost tossed it all completely. I managed to hold on to the one thing that I still trusted, and that was Jesus.

The only way that I could do that through all that doubt and confusion was to decide that ultimately all of the questions and doubts and the things that confused me and kept me up at night, that, well, in the grand scheme of things, they just didn't matter.

I have come far, and have been working quite hard to rebuild a sturdy and lasting foundation (Jesus), but I openly acknowledge that there is no point in worrying about the doors, the framing, the roof, until the foundation is completely finished. (I know the pain and suffering that comes from a bad foundation and have no wish to experience it again).

So when it comes to any questions beyond "Is there a God?" and "Is He Jesus?", I can offer opinions and conjecture, and they will most likely change tomorrow. The jury is still out on the Bible, whether or not it is inerrent, or accurate, or anything more than the words of men. Which makes it extremely hard for me to comment on particular scriptures.

But I think I am able to comment on the jist of your question.

I don't necessarily believe in OSAS, but I do not believe that you can lose your salvation as easily as some suppose. I think the thing that stops me from believing in OSAS is that in the end, we always have free will. I think that one can choose to walk away from God, and therefore be lost. By this I don't mean just leaving a certain church, or telling God "I don't want you anymore". I think it is something that only God would know, as He is the only one who can see your heart, your mind, your intent. And I think he knew that even when I was saying "God your horrible and cruel, I hate you!", my heart was saying something else, and my mind and thoughts had been totally warped.

For now, I rest secure in the knowledge that God knows my heart, my mind and my experiences. He knows what I have been through, he knows what I have suffered, and he knows what I have been /am searching for.

ILG	11-19-2008 02:50 PM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeatlast (Post 635020)

Expected??? Shoot, I think it says they were astonished that it happened.

.

Excellent point!

LadyCoonskinner

11-20-2008 06:30 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 634522)

You've never been at an alter and seen the pastor or minister shake someones head so hard and shout so loud while doing it, that a few "unintelligible" words came out, at which it was loudly proclaimed that "They got it!"?

Bro. I love ya, but that was totally disprespectful. :club

LUKE2447

11-20-2008 06:48 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeatlast (Post 635020)

Actually I meant Acts 8 sorry for the typo. Also actually it was that God gave them the HS, tongues was just the evidence which they readily accepted the sign per there experience.

freeatlast

11-20-2008 06:52 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCoonskinner (Post 635838)

Bro. I love ya, but that was totally disprespectful. :club

Nothing disrespectful said here LS. I realize you live in a Kansas cacoon but some of have seen this actually happen.

See the joe Duke thread.

RandyWayne

11-20-2008 07:02 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCoonskinner (Post 635838)

Bro. I love ya, but that was totally disprespectful. :club

It is often the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about.

freeatlast

11-20-2008 07:09 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447 (Post 635856)

Actually I meant Acts 8 sorry for the typo. Also actually it was that God gave them the HS, tongues was just the evidence which they readily accepted the sign per there experience.

I do not argue that tongues were not a "sign" that God had added some to the church Bro. Luke.

In Acts 10 it waas a sign to the UNbelieving Jews. They would not believe that God would or could save anyone but them. Hence God gave THEM a sign that he had indeed moved intot he lives of these uncircumcised Gentiles.

Same situation in Acts 8. vs 14 ..when the apostles heard that Samaritans ( another hated Gentile cross culture) had believed they were again astonished. they could not believe that God could save such a people.

They sent Peter and John to check out this unbelievable rumor.

Again God used this sign that those at the upper room had witnessed.

These events seem in line with Paul's teaching about tongues in 1 Corinthians 14

Paul wrote that "tongues are a sign NOT to believers but to unbelievers"

In fact in the only letters that address tongues, in the letters written to the churchs, Paul does not state or even hint that tongues were to be expected as initial evidence that someone had recieved God's spirit. Not once!!

ILG	11-20-2008 08:16 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCoonskinner (Post 635838)

Bro. I love ya, but that was totally disprespectful. :club

I've seen that happen.

LUKE2447

11-20-2008 10:05 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

freeatlast;635876]I do not argue that tongues were not a "sign" that God had added some to the church Bro. Luke.

In Acts 10 it waas a sign to the UNbelieving Jews. They would not believe that God would or could save anyone but them. Hence God gave THEM a sign that he had indeed moved intot he lives of these uncircumcised Gentiles.

Same situation in Acts 8. vs 14 ..when the apostles heard that Samaritans ( another hated Gentile cross culture) had believed they were again astonished. they could not believe that God could save such a people.

That is not what directly happened in Acts 8 though. Philip taught and all believed and where baptized. How did they know that they had not received the HS? They expected something!! The model clearly shows expectation outside of simple belief one received the HS. Which Pauls question clearly points to in Acts 19. That they should know they received it. (which is outside the Jew to Gentile line of Acts 8 and 10) Paul asks. Did you receive the HS when you believed? Not just accept by faith that they had but know by evidence. He expected a normal response of actually knowing, not blind faith. Otherwise he could not have asked the question if he simply expected them to only have by blind faith acknowledgment. Thus what does he do he asks a question and explains the issue. Then baptizes them. THEN he does not stop BUT LAYS HIS HANDS. HE was still expecting SOMETHING ELSE thus again shows he did not expect reception by blind faith. Also they where more SURPRISED that the HS had not fallen not that he did, which somehow they had to know(tongues) per sending for PEter and John.

Quote:

They sent Peter and John to check out this unbelievable rumor.

No they sent John and Peter because they "knew" they had not received the HS because he had not FALLEN. Notive they expected action not just reception by blind faith. Again if blind faith is expected that one has initially received the HS. Then how would they know they had not. Expectation tells all! Also notice simply believed and baptized are put into the equation yet they still knew they had not.

Quote:

Again God used this sign that those at the upper room had witnessed.

As he does he still does.

Quote:

These events seem in line with Paul's teaching about tongues in 1 Corinthians 14

Paul wrote that "tongues are a sign NOT to believers but to unbelievers"

Paul is talking about a different function that is used as a "gift" in the church not about initial evidence. The two are totaly different per my comments below.

Quote:

In fact in the only letters that address tongues, in the letters written to the churchs, Paul does not state or even hint that tongues were to be expected as initial evidence that someone had recieved God's spirit. Not once!!

Doesn't have to as he is dealing with other issues not issues that people had already been a witness to when they received the HS. Also initial evidence and tongues in the life of the believer are to different things. As Paul's directions would make little sense in Acts. Also tongues in Acts are initiated by God. The tongues in which Pauls talks about are of edification in which one USES a gift God has bestowed in which one initiates by stirring up the gift. The to aspects are totaly different.

freeatlast

11-20-2008 11:45 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Fallen upon ..go and learn what that means.

As for your comments that Pal was not addressing tongues as HG eveidence but rather as a gift...WHERE does he clearly state that??

At this point Luke there are about 4000 posts on a thread that is called no room for one steppers that covers all these points ad nauseum.

Check it out

Peace out.

LUKE2447

11-20-2008 12:33 PM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeatlast (Post 636171)

Quite simple the whole point of much of 1 Corinthians is to the church and also about the gifts and administration of the Spirit in the local assembly. It's not about salvation or receiving the HS. His discussion is about those outsiders that come in the church and hear such and discusses the function by saints in gifts while in the assembly along with prophecy.

LadyCoonskinner

11-20-2008 05:35 PM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 635867)

It is often the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about.

You're painting with a broad brush here. It DOES happen, by a few that are over-zealous. But that doesn't give us license to "mock" and make fun of those (like my husband and myself) who really try to be conscientious (sp?) about how we pray for people. MOST ministers are, but yet we are fenced in with those that are misled.

People need to be careful when making observations about the things of God, lest they come across in a "mocking" manner. Our cynicisim (sp) comes across way louder than the observation we are making. 95% of the ministers that pray for people are sincere, I will admit those that aren't, give the "real" ones a bad name, and it bothers me to see sincere people mocked.

YES, we have seen ministers that have over done it, but don't paint us all they same way.

Bless ya.

Falla39

11-21-2008 06:36 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Every child that is born into this world, WILL give a "certain sound". If necessary, the
one attending the birth may give it a swift "whack" on the behind, but if the child is
alive, there will be a "SOUND"!! If the baby does not make a sound, friend, you have a
dead baby on your hands! It may have been stillborn, or it may have died during the
process of being born. Argue all you want to, but God gave a "sign". And the "sign" is
to the unbeliever. The "sign" convinces the unbeliever. Including the one who is be-
coming a "believer". The one being born again! We are ALL unbelievers until we receive.
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Seed (Word of God) sown, conception

The "gifts" given to the believer, (as in Corinthians) is just another operation of the
same Spirit. You won't have the "gifts" until you first have the Giver!

Not to offend.

Blessings,

Falla39

RandyWayne

11-21-2008 06:53 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

I agree that there will be a sign..... And I can think of only ONE sign that the bible specifically says we will be known by.

Digging4Truth

11-21-2008 06:55 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Haven't you ever heard the song?

Our God is a gotcha God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power and a glove
Our God is a gotcha God

:)

Falla39

11-21-2008 06:57 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 637034)

I agree that there will be a sign..... And I can think of only ONE sign that the bible specifically says we will be known by.

Bro. Randy,

Newborn babes do not have fruit! It takes time for a "tree" to become
fruit bearing.

Blessings!:friend

Falla39

ILG	11-21-2008 06:59 AM

Re: Do we serve a "gotchya!" God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 637038)

Haven't you ever heard the song?

Our God is a gotcha God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power and a glove
Our God is a gotcha God

:)

:ursofunny

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