Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Its obvious you have never been engaged with Trins. You dont realize thats EXACTLY one of the things they say to us in discussions of the Godhead. That we make it to complicated to understand.

And as always you guys have proved and admitted you believe in your own form of "light" doctrine. As long as one gets baptized in Jesus name and believes in Oneness his other heresies dont matter. He's going to Heaven.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

...

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

And your point?

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

You act like this is my doctrine. I am quoting Paul the Apostle. You are offended by him, not me. All I'm doing is reminding people that Paul, speaking for Jesus Christ called people who taught the rapture can come before the man of sin is revealed are "deceivers".

Many (not all) Apostolics hold this very doctrine, some going as far as to say Jesus came in 70ad! They fear not when they see this warning by Paul saying its not important but their MAN OF GODS STANDARDS are.

So in theory a man serving God wearing a beard according to them could wind up going to hell because he has A SPIRIT OF REBELLION but teachers can deceive flocks weekly teaching Jesus could come any time and THEY are the great elders of the Apostolic Church!

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

That was not what Paul was saying.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

This is what it boils down to.

You're throwing a tantrum. You're upset because there are ministers you know who are against beards and believe they're a sin. So you want to punch back and return the favor.

How stupid.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Who is throwing the tantrum? Its not me who is teaching that beards are wrong or a sin and that if you wear one you are in rebellion with no scripture period.

I am making a simple observation. It has been said that the rapture teaching does not matter. As if Jesus never made it clear. As if Paul did not make it clear. As if the Bible doesnt make the timing of the rapture clearly after the man of sin is revealed. That its not as important as "standards" some of which have no Biblical basis at all!

So I am the one throwing the tantrum?

Lets see if I am making this up.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

You said you did not mention Godhead.

But you insinuated that trinnies are hell bound for rejecting oneness. So yeah, for all intent and purpose, you mentioned Godhead

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

You realize these are different posts, right?

The quote Mike responded to did not include anything about the Godhead.

Had he quoted the post you're referencing, I would have not objected.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Well actually I do have a life with God. We have been abiding in each other for decades. But sure I know what you mean. Its not all just about doctrine.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

The bolded gets closest. Why why Trins be held to the standard of loving the truth and we would not? Why would Jesus not judge us for teaching falsely about his coming? Paul said certain people would try to DECEIVE YOU about the 2nd coming in 2 Thess 1-5.

If the Spirit counts such men as deceivers do you think they will go to Heaven?

And really its not just about the rapture. Its the foundation teachings of Christ.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I guess not. Oh, well, another day on AFF!

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

You find the word Eschatology in the Bible I will give you 22 million dollars. Since I can't find that, then that means I can't find a scripture that says one way or the other. I I was a betting man I would say post trib. Because Jesus references Days of Noah and Lot, which we know they were carried through both times of their Tribulations. Then what it says in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

But as far as just saying it's this way or no way I can't say that, because who knows? Only the Father! It's in His hands.

But as far as that goes that's the most I can truthfully say for sure.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Knowing who God is, is one thing. Being baptized in His name receiving His Spirit is one thing. But knowing when He's coming you don't even know! Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." That leaves no excuses. John 3:5 says "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." That's clear, don't pass go don't collect 200 dollars. Mark 16:16 is clear "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." It leaves no out! How is it supposed to be done? Matthew 28:19 says "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Letting you know the name is the same for all three Father Son and Holy Ghost, and we must be baptized in it. What is the name? Acts 2:38-39 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Peter tells you in Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Theres many more but Paul says in Romans 8:9-11 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." There's a curse and a blessing, but what it all boils down to. The most important thing. "If you have not the Spirit of Christ, you are none of His."

These doctrines are very specific and many witnesses. The second coming is going to happen, if you believe not you are calling God a liar. But never once did Jesus tell you specifically as He did His plan of salvation. He made it so you don't have to guess, it's perfectly clear. He simply said in Matthew 25:13 "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." But left the parable that says verse 4- 7 "But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. [6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. [7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps." Meaning keep your lamp and stay full of the Spirit the oil. Stay full of the Holy Spirit and Jesus promised in John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

So stay full of the Spirit so that when 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 happens you can even hear the trump of God. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Brother Michael,

there are areas of eschatology that I think put us on dangerous ground

* saying the resurrection has already taken place
* saying that there is no eternal judgement

so you are correct in saying that eschatology matters.


2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The LORD knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the LORD must turn away from wickedness."

Hebrews 6:1-2 1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Brother Esaias teaches that pre trib rapture is heresy

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ghlight=heresy

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Heresies are dissensions from diversity of opinions, and that is what we are experiencing in this thread.
but no one in this thread is denying the resurrection or eternal judgement.

1 Corinthians 11:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

2 Timothy 3:16-17,

16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Every part of the Holy Scriptures has been breathed by the Father into the minds of His chosen holy men, to put pen to parchment. We need to seek from the Author that same inspiration, for understanding all that He inspired to be written.

Every verse is therefore profitable for doctrine. Every verse is profitable for reproof. Every verse is profitable for correction. Every verse is profitable for instruction in righteousness.

And all of this is for one particular purpose: perfection, or maturity, lacking nothing.

If we cannot make use of any verse of the Bible for either doctrine, reproof, correction, or instruction in righteousness, we are in some way insufficiently mature, and in some way, however small, of not being equipped for some good work.

The onus then is on us to push back against that lack, and strive for perfection or maturity. We need every part of the Scripture to do that. Especially the parts that are hard to understand, or hard to come to grips with, morally.

If any of us admit to not understanding something, that is fine. Make the admission. But have a plan in place to address that and rectify it to the best of our ability. The study helps are available and many of them are free.

Accepting stagnation or giving yourself a liberty to not grow in your knowledge and understanding of the Holy Scriptures is to reject the theme of inspiration, because really, if you were convinced something was truly inspired by God, and if you loved Him unreservedly, you'd do everything in your power to take what He inspired and embrace it with all your might, and push past any hindrance that would keep you from understanding what He has breathed into existence for your perfection.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I’m stuck somewhere between orthodox preterist and heretical preterist. Can’t figure it out.
Guess I’ll just fold and call it a day.

Byyyeeee

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Well said.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Why is pre trib rapture teaching excluded Amanah?

If we are A DECEIVER why are we NOT on dangerous ground?

Read verse 3 very carefully.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-5 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

I have bolded the word "deceive" so we will see the urgency of Pauls writing.

Let no man deceive you. If a person took this out of context like they so frequently do and applied it to the Godhead, Acts 2:38, or standards it would be to warn people and to keep them away from what they think are heretics.

But when we use it IN ITS TRUE CONTEXT.....people are not concerned! How can this be?

The TRUE CONTEXT of these verses is totally clear. He is warning about any man teaching them the day of Christ CAN HAPPEN before there is a falling away first....and.....and.....that man of sin be revealed.

Now why is the man/men who teach this NOT in danger when Paul has just called such men DECEIVERS?

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

1ofthechosen

Hey Bro, by your other post I can see you at least lean toward post trib. Good job. Now as far as saying we dont know when Jesus is coming, that he did not make it clear:

He did tell us SPECIFICALLY-EXPRESSLY when he is coming:

Matt 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And Paul under inspiration of the Spirit tells us when he will NOT COME.

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The thing we cannot know is the day or the hour.

Matt 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So yes Jesus told us when he would come and when he would not come.

You say knowing who God is is one thing....

As if thats just simple but the timing of the rapture is unknowable.

The deepest teaching in the Bible and in the Universe is WHO GOD IS.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

What they ARE saying is that DECEIVERS can enter the kingdom of God. They are saying the rapture teaching is anyones guess.

They believe Trins will burn for eternity in Hell for not knowing Jesus is the Father. That because they are deceived they will be lost.

YET IF THEIR TEACHERS AND THEMSELVES ARE DECEIVERS THEY SAY THEY WILL ENTER HEAVEN.

So this is a thread showing that in their hearts they have their own version of the "light" doctrine.

They just dont have "light" on the timing of the rapture therefore God will not hold them accountable for teaching it falsely.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

the point is not to be fooled and lose faith.

John Gill Commentary:


2 Thessalonians 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind
Or "from your mind or sense", as the Vulgate Latin version; or "from the solidity of sense", as the Arabic version; that is, from what they had received in their minds, and was their sense and judgment, and which they had embraced as articles of faith; that they would not be like a wave of the sea, tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine; or be moved from the hope of the Gospel, from any fundamental article of it, and from that which respects the second coming of Christ particularly; and especially, that they would not be quickly and easily moved from it; see ( Galatians 1:6 )
or be troubled;
thrown into consternation and surprise, for though the coming of Christ will not be terrible to saints, as it will be to sinners; yet there is something in it that is awful and solemn, and fills with concern; and to be told of it as at that instant might be surprising and shocking: the several ways in which their minds might be troubled and distressed with such an account are enumerated by the apostle, that they might guard against them, and not be imposed upon by them:
neither by spirit;
by a prophetic spirit, by pretensions to a revelation from the Spirit, fixing the precise time of Christ's coming, which should not be heeded or attended to; since his coming will be as a thief in the night:
nor by word:
by reason and a show of it, by arguments drawn from it, which may carry in them a show of probability; by enticing words of man's wisdom; by arithmetical or astronomical calculations; or by pretensions to a word, a tradition of Christ or his apostles, as if they had received it "viva voce", by word of mouth from any of them:
nor by letter, as from us;
by forging a letter and counterfeiting their hands, for such practices began to be used very early; spurious epistles of the Apostle Paul were carried about, which obliged him to take a method whereby his genuine letters might be known; see ( 2 Thessalonians 3:17 2 Thessalonians 3:18 ) or he may have respect in this clause to his former epistle, wherein he had said some things concerning the Coming of Christ, which had been either wrongly represented, or not understood; and as if his sense was, that it would be while he and others then living were alive and on the spot: wherefore he would not have them neither give heed to any enthusiastic spirits, nor to any plausible reasonings of men, or unwritten traditions; nor to any letters in his name, or in the name of any of the apostles; nor even to his former letter to them, as though it contained any such thing in it,
as that the day of Christ is at hand;
or is at this instant just now coming on; as if it would be within that year, in some certain month, and on some certain day in it; which notion the apostle would have them by no means give into, for these reasons, because should Christ not come, as there was no reason to believe he would in so short a time, they would be tempted to disbelieve his coming at all, at least be very indifferent about it; and since if it did not prove true, they might be led to conclude there was nothing true in the Christian doctrine and religion; and besides, such a notion of the speedy coming of Christ would tend to indulge the idle and disorderly persons among them in their sloth and negligence: and now for these, and for the weighty reasons he gives in the next verse, he dissuades them from imbibing such a tenet; for though the coming of Christ is sometimes said to be drawing nigh, and to be quickly, yet so it might be, and not at that instant; besides, such expressions are used with respect to God, with whom a thousand years are as one day, and one day as a thousand years; and because the Gospel times, or times of the Messiah, are the last days, there will be no other dispensation of things until the second coming of Christ; and chiefly they are used to keep up the faith, and awaken the hope and expectation of the saints with respect to it. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read, "the day of the Lord"; and so the Vulgate Latin version; and accordingly the Syriac and Ethiopic versions, "the day of our Lord".


https://www.biblestudytools.com/comm...nians-2-2.html

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

So what happens when MTD stands before God and finds that his newspaper headline eschatology is wrong?

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

That is good Michael I see it in those terms. I can't say that it's salvational, because we have not one scripture saying that. But I do like the way you explained it.

The most important teaching in the world is who God is, and how can I find reconciliation to get back to Him. But all teaching is profitable and we should all be searching for that.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Amanah, This is typical. Gill does not even MENTION the point Paul was trying to make! No mention of the man of sin. Not one.

But remember. This is not particularly a thread to prove Post trib. It is to prove Apostolics believe in the "light" doctrine. I believe you are promoting it yourself.

You are a post trib right? But you see no danger of someone being a pre trib. Why? Are they not teaching false doctrine?

Why will they get a free pass when the Trins must burn in Hell throughout the eternal ages if THEY are mistaken in their doctrine?

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Nothing at all according to the Apostolic "light" doctrine. It will simply be a matter of I didnt understand it and was mistaken. I then would enter Heavens gates!

Meanwhile the Trins and Arians would be receiving eternal torment in Hell because they did not understand and were mistaken about Jesus being the Father.:thumbsup

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Nothing, because God is going to tell Mike, "Hey nice beard, bro!" :thumbsup

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I just really don't understand the insistence on calling this "light doctrine"????

The "Light Doctrine" is NOT and never was this idea that you are saved as long as you're sincere in your beliefs, or that only a few things matter and the rest is non essential. THAT IS NOT THE LIGHT DOCTRINE!!!

The Light Doctrine goes like this: In the past, God revealed certain truths, one or two at a time. So in Luther's day He revealed "justification by faith", in Wesley's day He revealed entire sanctification, at Azusa He revealed the true baptism with the Holy Ghost, and at Arroyo Seco He revealed Jesus Name baptism. Those who died in whichever era they were in, are saved AS LONG AS they were obedient to what God had revealed up to that time. The Light Doctrine, as far as I ever heard it, did NOT make room for anyone to be saved who was NOT WALKING IN THE PRESENT LIGHT.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I think that would be MY point. Are Oneness people walking in the present light when they teach such things as pre trib and immortal soul?

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

:thumbsup

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I don't believe in "present light" to begin with! Since Pentecost the Truth has been what it's been. Everyone since then is either on board or left at the train station. Has God emphasized certain things in different generations? Sure, but never to the extent that other truths are somehow nonessential at that time.

I also think it has more to do with attitude than a specific amount of knowledge. We are to love God with all our mind. That implies we are to acquire all the knowledge of God we can. And that implies we would have the desire to do so. So those who "just don't care" about certain doctrines or areas of truth are probably bound for a big surprise.

As for errors in one's understanding, I think there are basics we must have down good and tight. And beyond that, there are speculations and opinions. For example, we must believe "we must through much tribulation enter the kingdom of God" because the Scripture plainly says it. Thus, if you believe you're gonna skip all that and skate free on a rapture bus you're deceived and following a non apostolic religion. On the other hand, if you agree with Scripture but think that tribulation is gonna last seven years vs say 3.5 or 2000+ years, I think that's more in the area of opinion that Christians need to discuss, study, pray over, and hopefully come to agreement in discovering truth.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Thank you Esaias for helping to keep AFF from spinning out of control.